02/09/2014 Daily Politics


02/09/2014

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Daily Politics. Bad news for Boris Johnson, as his dream of a fantasy

:00:46.:00:49.

Island airport for London is finally killed off. He says the decision is

:00:50.:00:53.

short-sighted, so where does it leave the UK's airports?

:00:54.:00:58.

The Prime Minister says Britain might join American air strikes in

:00:59.:01:01.

Iraq and Syria, and he might do it without asking for Parliament's

:01:02.:01:05.

approval first. We will speak to an MP who wants him to act.

:01:06.:01:09.

They came to office promising to be the greenest government ever must

:01:10.:01:13.

how are they doing? We will speak to the Energy Secretary.

:01:14.:01:19.

New EU rules meant to stop the sales of powerful vacuum cleaners have led

:01:20.:01:23.

to a spike in sales. Is it a sensible way to cut our use of

:01:24.:01:26.

electricity, or idea that just sucks?

:01:27.:01:37.

All that in the next hour. With us for the whole of the programme today

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is the writer and environmentalist, George Monbiot. He describes himself

:01:42.:01:46.

as a rational troublemaker. You have been warned. He has written about

:01:47.:01:50.

his travels in dangerous parts of the world and today, he has made the

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hazardous journey to our temporary home at the BBC's new Broadcasting

:01:54.:01:59.

House. First today, the Labour Party has

:02:00.:02:03.

suspended four members this morning in the wake of the report into the

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Rotherham child abuse scandal. The four all held senior positions of

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responsibility in Rotherham in the 16 year period during which children

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are reported to have been abused by predominantly Asian men. This comes

:02:27.:02:30.

in the wake of a report last night that a researcher who raised the

:02:31.:02:34.

alarm over the abuse of teenage girls in rather more than a decade

:02:35.:02:39.

ago was sent on an ethnicity and diversity course by child protection

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officials who refused to act on her evidence. We are joined now from

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Westminster by Labour's shadow home affairs minister, Diana Johnson.

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What did Labour politicians no about what was going on in Rotherham? From

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the report that came out last week, there were clearly councillors in

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positions of authority who did not act when they should have. It is

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right that today, those councillors have been suspended. The government

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now need to take a leadership position. Labour is doing that by

:03:12.:03:14.

taking this action against Labour Party councillors, but I think

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Theresa May today needs to set out what the government is going to do.

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Two months ago, she announced the overarching enquiry into child

:03:26.:03:28.

protection, but we still don't have a chair for that or terms of

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reference, two years after Labour were saying we needed to have that

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national overarching enquiry. But the abuse was carried out over 16

:03:37.:03:39.

years. Labour were in power for most of that period. Why didn't senior

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politicians at Westminster no? There was a series of home secretaries

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under the Labour governments of those years. They were in power

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throughout this period, when most of these girls were being horribly

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abused by men, mostly of Pakistani heritage. Those are very good

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questions, the kind of questions we want to see addressed in this

:04:02.:04:06.

overarching child protection enquiry. But if Labour does not know

:04:07.:04:13.

what was going on, questions have two be asked about competence. Of

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course they do. When allegations were put to the police, they did not

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do anything about it. They said a 14-year-old girl who was having sex

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with a much older man, that was consensual, when it is clearly a

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crime. So for me, I want the Home Secretary to look at what the police

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should be doing in South Yorkshire in terms of bringing those

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perpetrators to prosecution where possible. She also should address

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the needs of the victims. We are talking about 1400 victims here and

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the support services are still not in place for them. Everyone would

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agree with that. What will worry people is why this did not come to

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the surface. The Home Office research we have talked about, the

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researcher was told she must never refer to the fact that the abusers

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were predominantly Asian men. Do you accept that there was a culture

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within parts of the lead party where political correct bus had gone mad?

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There is no excuse for not dealing with criminal events, irrespective

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of who did it. Was that a culture in the Labour Party? That is why this

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enquiry into child detection links in with what happened with Jimmy

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Savile in the BBC and the NHS. We need to look at what was going on

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culturally around these issues. But why did Labour miss it? You had a

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rotten borough. You have suspended four councillors and the leader has

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resigned. The police and crime commission is still there, suspended

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from the party. He was kicked out of the Labour Party. We made it clear

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that he should stand down. If you hold a position of authority as a

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counsellor, you are under obligation to ask difficult questions and

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scrutinise what officials are telling you, and that was not

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happening in Rotherham. I was the chair of social services in Tower

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Hamlets in the 90s and I remember having to ask difficult questions.

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As an obligation on all local authority councillors to do that are

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particularly the group who have been suspended today. Do you think

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politicians at senior government level at that time have no

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responsibility? Well, I don't know what they were all were not told. We

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know the police did not act and the councillors did not talk about this

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openly. They had a few meetings, but they did not have a public

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discussion or treat it as a priority. So I don't know what then

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went up to national government. But this clearly needs to be looked at

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and we need to find out who knew what at what point. That is why this

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enquiry is important. Former Labour MP Denis MacShane, who represented

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Rotherham, confessed that as a Guardian reader and liberal left

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the, he backed off from confronting the Muslim community over what was

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going on. Is that the truth of what happened here? People turned a blind

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eye because it was too difficult politically to look at this one

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community, because it would have perhaps cost them votes and seats?

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It is part of the truth. No one emerges well from this. It is

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disgraceful and unjustifiable if people were not investigated as a

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result of their ethnicity. But that is only part of the truth. Whether

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police were concerned, their attitude towards Jimmy Savile's

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victims was almost the same as their attitude towards the victims in

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Rotherham. They were treated with disrespect and not as if they were

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full citizens with equal rights. And there is no suggestion that Jimmy

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Savile is of act as Danny heritage and no suggestion that he was

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exempted from proper investigation because of his ethnicity. But do you

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accept that in this case, that was a barrier over a 16 year period, and

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do you not feel the Labour Party has to take sponsor billeting right up

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to the top about what happened on its own doorstep -- responsibility?

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Yes, there were evident failures of Labour councillors and officials all

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the way through. Even so, it is a bit rough to put it on current

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Labour politicians, some of whom were in short trousers at the time.

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But referring to those at the time, some of them are still MPs, but

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let's leave it there. Bad news for Boris Johnson this

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morning. His ambitious plan to build a new hub airport in London's Thames

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Estoril has been permanently grounded. The airports commission

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set up by the government to decide where to expand UK airport capacity

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said his puzzle, nicknamed Boris Island, was a nonstarter.

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Whether to expand the UK's airports and if so, where to do it is one of

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the trickiest issues facing the government. To deal with it,

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ministers that up an independent commission under Sir Howard Davies.

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It said the country needs one new runway by 2030. This morning, he

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ruled out the most ambitious option, a new hub airport on the Isle of

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grain in north Kent, proposed by Boris Johnson. Howard Davies said

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the plans could cost as much as ?90 billion, while there are doubts

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about its delivery and operation. That leaves three options still on

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the table for expansion in London - adding a third runway at Heathrow,

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lengthening and existing Heathrow runway and a new runway at Gatwick.

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The Davies commission will not decide until next summer after the

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election, but Boris Johnson is not happy. Now you have got to hear from

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others about their plans. We need some of the same clarity and

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boldness we have seen from the estuary airport solution. In the

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long term, people look at the reality of what is involved with a

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third runway and almost inevitably, a fourth runway at Heathrow. They

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will shy away from that. And people will say, what is the logical

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replacement? And they will look again at the estuary site. This is

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all looking more competitive for the London mayor, since he announced he

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is hoping to be selected as candidate in the Uxbridge seat where

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many of the people whom work at Heathrow live. We are doing now by

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the Mayor 's aviation adviser, and George Monbiot is still here.

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Daniel, were you surprised that it has been killed off by Howard

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Davies? Not entirely, because the whole process has been set up in

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such a way that it is difficult for a new airport idea to get any

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traction. Davies has been clear that he wants to look to 2030 rather than

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take a long-term view. He is only looking at one runway. None of that

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is in his remit from the government. That is what he has decided to do

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himself. He has also made it easier for private sector business people

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to put plans forward. But that is a reality, money is a critical issue.

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The Mayor's scheme was talking 70 to ?90 billion, a vast amount of money.

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And we have had controversy over HS2. People want a solution now.

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They need certainty, which is why they are focusing on other options.

:11:43.:11:46.

Well, I am not sure they are. If you look at Chambers of commerce up and

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down the country, they have been calling on Howard Davies not to take

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this option off the table. In terms of the cost, part of that is for the

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cost of the airport itself, which is not very different from the cost of

:12:01.:12:02.

building a new runway at Heathrow. The rest of it is road and rail

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access, it would have benefits for the estuary. Another part of

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intellectual dishonesty in the Davies process is that they loaded

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the whole cost of road and rail expansion to the cost of the

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project. I think the whole process is coming apart. It seems the

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argument has been made that you had your say, but you and Boris Johnson

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sound as though you are going to continue. Is there any point in

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pursuing a plant that has no chance of becoming a reality? But the

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airports commission is only a small part of the decision-making process

:12:47.:12:53.

to resolve this issue. No political party has agreed on it. Its primary

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purpose was to kick the whole thing beyond the general election. Howard

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is doing that successfully. But this will be a decision for the

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government after the election and politically, and expansion of

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Heathrow to three or four runways in the west of London is politically

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undeliverable, while a that Gatwick solution means saying goodbye to

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having an airport hub in London. There is a reason people keep coming

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back to the estuary idea. The other options don't work. Should that

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estuary option still be on the table? Piriz Boris Johnson, who

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supports all the government cuts, and yet when it comes to his pet

:13:43.:13:46.

project, he is prepared to spend ?70 billion. To me, that is indicative

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of what interests the Coalition Government and the Mayor, which is

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that they are happy to impose the most rigorous austerity upon the

:13:59.:14:01.

poor, make cuts to essential public services, but when it comes to their

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pet projects, they behave like gamblers in a Russian novel,

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engaging in Bullingdon debauchery as they rip through the Treasury, grab

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as many public assets as they can and stuff them into their cronies'

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pockets. It is an amazing case of double standards. I don't think

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George supports the estuary option, but it is a vanity project. He did

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not get around to saying it was a vanity project. He was flinging to

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many other insults around. The fact is that in this country, the

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government provides road and rail services. The edge bought itself,

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Inc -- the airport is about 25 billion, which would be paid for by

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the private sector, as it would at Heathrow. The roads and rail

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provided would give connectivity and economic growth to the history,

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which is an area which suffers from depression and has largely been

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ignored. It is legitimate to say that that is what politics is about.

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I do want to spend money on that, I would rather spend it on something

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else. That is what politics is about. It is not a vanity project. I

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did not say that. If it is of the table, one could argue there is no

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point in pursuing it. How much has City Hall spent on this? The mayor

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has spent ?4.25 million so far on this. He will not continue spending

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money now, will he? I think he will. It is all right for Howard

:15:40.:15:45.

Davies to say I am just going to focus on where you put the tarmac.

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What the mayor focuses on is that you have a city which, by 2030, when

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this wretched runway is built, will be 10 million. You have people

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crying out for homes already. You need to do something spatially to

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shape the city. Daniel has a point, doesn't he? Because when you were

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castigating this vanity project, the alternative is that you don't

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support either. There will be another runway at Gatwick or

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Heathrow or an extended runway. I don't believe any of them should

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happen. We have so many exciting means of communicating, and the idea

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that in the 21st-century, in order to talk to someone else you still

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need to get somebody up to 30,000 feet and fly them 4000 miles, this

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is an antiquated way of doing things. We are already seeing a

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major drop-off in demand from business and private passengers. We

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are not going to see the expansion of demand that the Government

:16:54.:17:01.

projects and it is crazy... That demand clearly is there. We should

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be talking about reducing capacity, and we can do that now that we have

:17:06.:17:10.

better technologies. It is not only the amount of damage it does to

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local people's lives, we are talking about the climate and the idea of

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expanding the airways is madness. Would you talk about that more now

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that you have lost the argument in London? India and China populations

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are reaching the level of income that they will want to fly. As an

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island we should nonetheless cut ourselves off from the principal

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means of access. As long as everyone understands exactly what George is

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saying, it will mean that you will be getting over to Paris and

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Amsterdam by whatever means you can do it, but there are very few ways

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of leaving an island except by vote or by air.

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Thank you. It was a big day in Parliament yesterday as MPs returned

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and David Cameron gave a statement on what turned out to be a summer of

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instability around the world. He spoke about the situation in Ukraine

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and how to deal with the terrorist threat at home but it was his

:18:30.:18:36.

suggestion that the UK could join US air strikes in Syria that has made

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waves. His responses to previous questions implied that he is open to

:18:42.:18:45.

the idea of direct military participation in the current air

:18:46.:18:49.

strikes to protect the Kurds. If that is the case, can he say so

:18:50.:18:56.

clearly now? If there was a direct threat to British national

:18:57.:18:59.

interests, or in the case of Libya when we had to react rapidly to

:19:00.:19:03.

prevent a catastrophe, we reserve the right to act immediately and

:19:04.:19:09.

inform the House of Commons afterwards. You have seen what the

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British government has done to date and I am listening carefully to the

:19:14.:19:16.

views of honourable members in this debate. The MP you saw was John

:19:17.:19:23.

Woodcock and he joins me now from outside Parliament. You heard David

:19:24.:19:29.

Cameron say yesterday that he is not ruling anything out when it comes to

:19:30.:19:34.

air strikes, do you think he should go further and send British planes

:19:35.:19:40.

and bonds above Iraq? Let's consider what is happening here. You have a

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humanitarian crisis that has not gone away in Syria and Iraq, it is

:19:46.:19:53.

getting worse and the weather is set to change. The Prime Minister talks

:19:54.:20:01.

about acting if there is a direct threat to our interests. The rise of

:20:02.:20:06.

these extremists, the Islamic State, will threaten our interests.

:20:07.:20:11.

The idea that they will get a lasting foothold in the Middle East

:20:12.:20:18.

is a real threat to our own borders, the prospect of sending back

:20:19.:20:24.

terrorists who will be intent on hitting British civilians, it

:20:25.:20:29.

doesn't seem right... On the one hand you have the Foreign Secretary

:20:30.:20:34.

saying other nations need to step up, we cannot leave it to the

:20:35.:20:40.

Americans all alone, and yet that is our position at present. We are not

:20:41.:20:45.

part of the military action. We are involved in various other things

:20:46.:20:48.

like surveillance and humanitarian issues. By calling for intervention,

:20:49.:20:55.

you are not on the side of public opinion, as you know. It is very

:20:56.:21:03.

difficult and not really the right thing to conduct really difficult

:21:04.:21:14.

and drenched foreign policy on opinion polls. It is our

:21:15.:21:23.

responsibility to do the right thing to keep the nation secure and it is

:21:24.:21:27.

unquestionably the right thing to deal directly and fully with the

:21:28.:21:36.

threat that ISIS, Islamic State, whatever they are going to be

:21:37.:21:40.

called, these extremists who will do anything they can to threaten our

:21:41.:21:44.

way of life in Britain and other countries, it is in our clear

:21:45.:21:50.

interests to act against them. Or will it cause more unrest and be

:21:51.:21:55.

more of a recruiting sergeant? You only have to look at recent air

:21:56.:22:00.

strikes in Libya, that has hardly left peaceful democratic government

:22:01.:22:06.

there. Ed Miliband was right yesterday when he spoke about the

:22:07.:22:10.

need for a proper international coalition against what is

:22:11.:22:15.

happening, what Islamic State are doing in the region. It is the

:22:16.:22:23.

neighbours of Iraq who have the most to fear and the most to lose from

:22:24.:22:30.

the rise of these people. We should be doing more about getting

:22:31.:22:32.

international efforts together, but the idea that this action actually

:22:33.:22:40.

makes the problem worse, I'm afraid it is a fallacy. Once you start

:22:41.:22:46.

accepting that, you play into the hands of people who would like us to

:22:47.:22:51.

sit back, who would like our nation just to let whatever happens in Iraq

:22:52.:22:58.

and Syria happen, then deal with the serious consequences further down

:22:59.:23:02.

the track. George Monbiot, what do you say to that? We know the terror

:23:03.:23:08.

threat level has been increased, the Prime Minister announced that at the

:23:09.:23:13.

end of last week. Should we be proactive and join the Americans? It

:23:14.:23:18.

is serious but just a year ago David Cameron recalled parliament to

:23:19.:23:22.

weighed in on the other side of the dispute, to start attacking Syria

:23:23.:23:28.

which proposes Islamic State. It seems that just about every armed

:23:29.:23:33.

intervention we have ever made in the Middle East has stoked problems

:23:34.:23:37.

rather than preventing problems and has contributed to the rise of

:23:38.:23:56.

jihadism. When they see our support for Israel, all of that contributes

:23:57.:24:01.

to the idea that Britain is an enemy of what some people consider to be

:24:02.:24:09.

Islam. Wouldn't it have been a disaster if we had gone into Syria,

:24:10.:24:15.

bearing in mind what has evolved? It has been a disaster that we did not

:24:16.:24:20.

intervene to help the moderate opposition in Syria who still exist

:24:21.:24:25.

but they are under the cosh from both sides, from the Islamic

:24:26.:24:30.

extremists and the Syrian government. I'm afraid it is a

:24:31.:24:37.

counsel of despair to say nothing can be done and risks being

:24:38.:24:42.

accompanied misrepresentation of Islam, which is a peaceful

:24:43.:24:48.

religion, to say that these barbaric extremists represent that religion.

:24:49.:24:57.

We have to leave it there. While we were discussing that, it has been

:24:58.:25:02.

announced that George Osborne's Autumn Statement went -- will be on

:25:03.:25:07.

December the 3rd. David Cameron made himself something

:25:08.:25:10.

of a hostage to fortune when he pledged to lead the greenest

:25:11.:25:15.

government ever in 2010, and many environmental groups claim that

:25:16.:25:21.

green issues have been driven down the agenda at Westminster ever

:25:22.:25:29.

since. He hung out with huskies and vowed to lead the greenest

:25:30.:25:35.

government ever but maybe David Cameron should have listened to

:25:36.:25:40.

ecological experts Tony Bennett and Kermit the frog. It is not easy

:25:41.:25:44.

being green when many of your backbenchers think climate change is

:25:45.:25:47.

not real and your own Chancellor worries green policies could slow

:25:48.:25:50.

down growth. So how is the Government doing? Under EU law by

:25:51.:25:56.

2020, 15% of our energy consumption every year should come from

:25:57.:26:01.

renewable resources. Currently it is 5%. The amount of energy generated

:26:02.:26:08.

from wind turbines is increasing too and one Sunday this August record

:26:09.:26:11.

was broken, the most energy generated ever in a single hour

:26:12.:26:16.

although it was a particularly blustery day. Tory MPs lost a lot

:26:17.:26:22.

about wind farms saying they are expensive and unreliable. Eric

:26:23.:26:26.

Pickles now decides whether they go ahead. Since 2013 he has said yes to

:26:27.:26:34.

two out of 17 applications. This is the first new nuclear plants in a

:26:35.:26:38.

generation. EDF will build it after they were offered a guaranteed price

:26:39.:26:44.

for its electricity, a price many campaigners felt was too high. It

:26:45.:26:51.

seems the Treasury's favourite fuel is gas, fracking that is taken out

:26:52.:26:56.

of the ground with water at high pressure. For campaigners, the

:26:57.:27:00.

so-called dash for gas is a disaster, producing too much carbon

:27:01.:27:08.

and potentially pollution too. What about consumers? The flagship scheme

:27:09.:27:19.

that gave out vouchers for people to carry out energy improvements had to

:27:20.:27:25.

close down because people stampeded to take it up, but when people

:27:26.:27:33.

complained about the cost of their bills, the Government cut levies for

:27:34.:27:36.

environmental policies. Kermit is right, it is not easy being green. I

:27:37.:27:43.

am green, and I think it is what I want to be. We are joined now by the

:27:44.:27:49.

Lib Dem Energy Secretary, Ed Davey, and of course George Monbiot is

:27:50.:27:51.

still here. You have had this long running battle with the Chancellor

:27:52.:27:54.

about the scale of pace for targets for cutting emissions, which you

:27:55.:27:58.

have won. We have more than doubled the amount of our electricity from

:27:59.:28:00.

renewable sources, now 15% and rising fast. We have doubled the

:28:01.:28:05.

amount of investment for future renewable electricity at record

:28:06.:28:09.

levels, more than double in the last Parliament, and legislated for the

:28:10.:28:14.

world's first-ever low carbon electricity market so we are moving

:28:15.:28:19.

fast on renewable electricity. We will come onto the renewables and

:28:20.:28:24.

how great you have been, but as I say, you have won that particular

:28:25.:28:29.

argument, despite George Osborne saying it could harm business

:28:30.:28:33.

competitiveness. Why is he wrong? Climate change is a critical issue

:28:34.:28:41.

for Britain and the world. We have to play our role in it, and that

:28:42.:29:01.

means investing in renewables and low carbon technologies. It also

:29:02.:29:14.

means working with our partners because we cannot do it a go on --

:29:15.:29:21.

do it alone. Why should Britain be ahead of our European competitors? I

:29:22.:29:31.

remember George Osborne saying we would be paying the price for

:29:32.:29:39.

unilaterally beating European partners, why don't we go at the

:29:40.:29:45.

same pace? It is about taking them with us. It is about agreeing a

:29:46.:29:49.

European target and effectively we are getting the climate change act

:29:50.:29:54.

that we passed in the UK, getting that in Europe,

:29:55.:29:54.

remember George Osborne saying we would be paying which is a huge

:29:55.:29:58.

achievement. If we pull this off, it will be the biggest green measure by

:29:59.:30:07.

this Government by a long way. Are you going to put a medal on his

:30:08.:30:11.

lapel for being the most green minister ever? He has toed the line,

:30:12.:30:14.

I will give him that, but the contradictions are vast. One of his

:30:15.:30:17.

responsibilities, at the same time as minimising the amount of carbon

:30:18.:30:19.

dioxide we produce is to maximise the economic recovery of the UK's

:30:20.:30:22.

oil and gas, to get as much as possible out of the ground. The

:30:23.:30:32.

carbon impact of coal is huge. But that might help with the lights on

:30:33.:30:37.

while we wait for nuclear to come on board. We have other ways. When we

:30:38.:30:47.

publish our carbon plan, that plan shows us, using a lot of oil and gas

:30:48.:30:53.

between petrol and diesel, the question is, where is that oil and

:30:54.:30:57.

gas going to come from? It could come from the Middle East. Or it

:30:58.:31:03.

could come from our own resources. By locking us into gas, you look is

:31:04.:31:08.

in for the next 50 years into a high carbon economy. Not with carbon

:31:09.:31:15.

capture and storage. We are leading in Europe. We have the two only

:31:16.:31:19.

large-scale carbon capture storage plants in Europe. One is gas, and

:31:20.:31:24.

one is coal. And how far have they got? Further than anyone else. Will

:31:25.:31:29.

there be a guarantee that there will be no new gas plants without carbon

:31:30.:31:35.

capture and storage? Otherwise, your pledge is nonsense. We have said,

:31:36.:31:38.

with the pledge is nonsense. We have said,

:31:39.:31:39.

with emission performance standard, that no new coal plant can be built

:31:40.:31:45.

without... But the question was about gas. I have asked you a

:31:46.:31:55.

straightforward question. It is an improvement, but it looks as into

:31:56.:31:59.

another form of fossil fuel. Gas power stations are being built now

:32:00.:32:03.

and in the early part of the next decade. They will come off-line

:32:04.:32:08.

before 2050. So what you really want me to argue is about gas powered

:32:09.:32:14.

stations built after 2030. Although I am the Secretary of State now in

:32:15.:32:18.

2014, being able to predict 2030 is a big difficult. But isn't it a case

:32:19.:32:24.

of long-term commitment? Yes, and that is where the fourth carbon

:32:25.:32:29.

budget, which you are right that some parts of government were not

:32:30.:32:32.

keen for it to be kept at the current level, I fought hard to

:32:33.:32:37.

maintain it at that level and we won. That sets targets through the

:32:38.:32:42.

next decade, which is critical to make sure we meet our climate change

:32:43.:32:47.

commitments. Let's see how committed you are to renewable resources. We

:32:48.:32:52.

mentioned in the film a target to generate 15% of electricity from

:32:53.:32:57.

renewable resources by 2020. It is currently 5%. Are you confident that

:32:58.:33:01.

that can be achieved? We are on track to do that. You have different

:33:02.:33:06.

sources for electricity, heating and transport. With electricity, we are

:33:07.:33:10.

targeting 30% renewable electricity by 2020 and we are on target to beat

:33:11.:33:15.

that. So the fact that we have grown viewable electricity so fast and we

:33:16.:33:20.

have this pipeline gives me confidence that we will meet those

:33:21.:33:24.

targets. And what happens beyond 2020? You have resisted EU calls for

:33:25.:33:30.

a binding target. That sounds like you don't have both in the

:33:31.:33:36.

renewables market. Let me explain. Through building the world's first

:33:37.:33:40.

ever low carbon electricity market, if you can go low carbon through

:33:41.:33:44.

durables or through carbon capture and storage or through nuclear, let

:33:45.:33:50.

me pay tribute to George. He is one of the environmentalists who say

:33:51.:33:55.

nuclear has to be part of your low carbon strategy. Because we are now

:33:56.:34:00.

reducing a low carbon electricity market, after 2020 unit targets to

:34:01.:34:04.

make sure investment will go into all low carbon forms. If you pick

:34:05.:34:11.

out one, it means you reduce the amount overall. If you are really

:34:12.:34:16.

ambitious and climate change, you need a technology for all. You are

:34:17.:34:24.

talking about investment into all the carbon technology forms, but at

:34:25.:34:27.

the same time, you are talking about an investment in gas, which locks us

:34:28.:34:31.

in. And you failed to answer my question. And the answer is no. You

:34:32.:34:41.

are saying, it will not be quite as bad as coal, so that of chocolate

:34:42.:34:46.

fudge cake, we will all be eating in the pie, which is not quite as bad

:34:47.:34:51.

for you, but we are not getting onto the low carb diet which is what we

:34:52.:34:55.

need. We have made it live sometime that you need to see gas as a bridge

:34:56.:35:02.

fuel away from coal as we invest in renewables and nuclear. But we will

:35:03.:35:13.

have 40 years with gas plants. Over time, you will see our gas

:35:14.:35:18.

consumption come down. Why? Because we are investing so much in low

:35:19.:35:23.

carbon. You are delaying it by going for gas rather than going straight

:35:24.:35:28.

to the low carbon alternatives. You don't believe renewable resources

:35:29.:35:31.

are inexpensive and efficient? You are going for gas instead? That is

:35:32.:35:37.

exactly what is happening. Let me bring some sanity into this

:35:38.:35:42.

conversation. You a mixed approach. That is why we are doing renewables,

:35:43.:35:48.

nuclear and energy efficiency. And carbon capture and storage. In

:35:49.:35:54.

future, gas can be burnt with carbon capture and storage. We are the only

:35:55.:36:02.

country in Europe with a gas carbon capture project. You two... But the

:36:03.:36:12.

once you are currently building do not have carbon capture and

:36:13.:36:16.

storage! Ed Davey, thank you! Now, what has happened to the

:36:17.:36:20.

Conservative Party lately? You can hardly have failed to notice that

:36:21.:36:26.

they were hit hard by the defection of the MP Douglas Carswell to UKIP.

:36:27.:36:29.

This morning, it was announced that the ensuing by-election, which the

:36:30.:36:34.

pollsters expect the Tories to lose, will be on October the night, the

:36:35.:36:39.

Prime Minister's birthday, no less. And there are plenty more

:36:40.:36:42.

conservative backbenchers unhappy with David Cameron's leadership.

:36:43.:36:46.

Former MP Matthew Parris has suggested that those on the right

:36:47.:36:49.

actually want to wreck the Prime Minister's chances of winning the

:36:50.:36:52.

next election. In a moment, we will speak to Matthew. First, I am joined

:36:53.:36:57.

in Westminster by the pollster Katherine Peacock of ComRes. Let's

:36:58.:37:02.

look at some of the polling. We know those who are interested in politics

:37:03.:37:06.

do not like divided parties. They absolutely don't. They also don't

:37:07.:37:09.

like divided government. The public did not want a coalition. But

:37:10.:37:16.

throughout the course of this Parliament, the public have seen

:37:17.:37:20.

Conservatives as divided. It is not just Europe. There are things like a

:37:21.:37:28.

marriage. And the majority of the public think the Conservatives are

:37:29.:37:33.

more divided now than under John Major. What about the issues that do

:37:34.:37:40.

appeal to voters, like immigration? The issue of immigration is really

:37:41.:37:44.

important to people. But the problem is that Europe is bound up in

:37:45.:37:53.

immigration. While the public are talking about immigration,

:37:54.:37:56.

politicians are speaking about Europe, and the two are not the same

:37:57.:38:01.

thing. Well, Matthew Parris is here in the studio, the former

:38:02.:38:07.

Conservative and the. We are also joined by Mark Wallace of the

:38:08.:38:09.

website Conservative Home. Matthew, you say that a conservative schism

:38:10.:38:14.

is all but inevitable, but we have been here before. One only has to

:38:15.:38:20.

look at Maastricht and John Major. Yes, we came close to schism on

:38:21.:38:24.

Maastricht, and John Major just managed to pull that one off. The

:38:25.:38:32.

right in the party have not gone away. They have never forgiven the

:38:33.:38:36.

party for Maastricht, and they are back. And I think they are now so

:38:37.:38:43.

bitter, so angry and so zealous in their anti-European ideology that

:38:44.:38:48.

they are prepared to destroy the unity of the Conservative Party to

:38:49.:38:53.

get it. Do you agree that there are people in the Conservative Party who

:38:54.:38:55.

are prepared to see the Conservative Party split over this? Well, I

:38:56.:39:00.

believe we should leave the European Union. Hopefully, I will not display

:39:01.:39:03.

too much bitterness during the discussion.

:39:04.:39:05.

Union. Hopefully, I will not display too much bitterness You are too

:39:06.:39:07.

young! I think Douglas Carswell made the wrong decision to defect to UKIP

:39:08.:39:13.

. That threatens the possibility of re-election in 2015. But it is not

:39:14.:39:20.

simple enough, or rather, it is too simple to say that Eurosceptics are

:39:21.:39:24.

somehow anti-conservative. I fear that the wrong lessons could be

:39:25.:39:28.

learnt from this. When talking about Eurosceptics, we are talking about a

:39:29.:39:32.

lot of people within the Conservative Party and possibly the

:39:33.:39:35.

Labour Party, but you are saying there is a division between the

:39:36.:39:40.

Eurosceptics and the Europhobes. Yes, we are all Eurosceptics, but

:39:41.:39:45.

the Europhobes just want out. They want out now. They don't care what

:39:46.:39:51.

deal Europe dashed David Cameron gets, they want out. They fear that

:39:52.:39:59.

David Cameron might win a referendum on Europe, so they would rather see

:40:00.:40:02.

the party go down in flames than have that happen. And from those

:40:03.:40:08.

flames, they see a pure, more right-wing and unambiguously

:40:09.:40:12.

anti-European Conservative Party emerge. When Douglas Carswell

:40:13.:40:18.

announced his defection, Europe was not the only issue he mention. He

:40:19.:40:24.

was talking about direct democracy, recall of MPs, open primaries. So

:40:25.:40:31.

his vision is slightly broader than you have portrayed. He was

:40:32.:40:34.

scrabbling together as many reasons as he could for resigning, but I

:40:35.:40:37.

think he resigned for opportunistic reasons. That is a misreading of

:40:38.:40:42.

Douglas Carswell. There are certainly anti-EU MPs and there have

:40:43.:40:46.

been since the 90s, whose main motivation in life is to leave the

:40:47.:40:50.

EU. But Douglas Carswell is not one of them. His Euroscepticism comes

:40:51.:40:56.

from a broader iconoclasm. He really believes we should have direct

:40:57.:41:00.

democracy. He wants power of initiative for referenda. His

:41:01.:41:04.

opposition to the EU stems from that. I don't think UKIP is the

:41:05.:41:08.

right vehicle to deliver that, but his main motivation... He must be

:41:09.:41:13.

crazy if he thinks UKIP is the right vehicle to deliver that. But think

:41:14.:41:17.

of the wider iconoclasm. If you have an Essex Roundhead attitude to life,

:41:18.:41:21.

he really wants to shake Westminster until parts of it fall down. Do you

:41:22.:41:28.

think that is a noble cause? I think he is mistaken. I don't think

:41:29.:41:32.

letting Ed Miliband in will get us a referendum. But is it a noble cause?

:41:33.:41:37.

It is noble to want to change our politics, to say that parties

:41:38.:41:43.

elected on a lower and lower proportion of a lower and lower

:41:44.:41:47.

turnout, that is not a solution for the future. Its troubles me that

:41:48.:41:50.

Douglas Carswell does not feel he can find hope with the

:41:51.:41:54.

Conservatives. There are elements in Conservative Home being very careful

:41:55.:41:58.

not to attack Douglas Carswell. There is an enormous amount of

:41:59.:42:02.

sympathy for him there, not just in Conservative Home, but among the

:42:03.:42:10.

Tory right generally. Well, it would be a mistake... He has betrayed the

:42:11.:42:14.

Conservative Party, hasn't he? I think he has made a horrible error.

:42:15.:42:19.

So why not condemn him? The crucial thing is, do you want to respond to

:42:20.:42:25.

the criticism, Carswell by slinging mud and accusing him of treason, off

:42:26.:42:31.

with his head etc? No, we should be asking why people like Douglas

:42:32.:42:33.

Carswell, someone who was a politician for the future, not the

:42:34.:42:36.

past, why doesn't he feel comfortable in our party? Why is he

:42:37.:42:42.

not the future? Every age produces politicians with strong

:42:43.:42:47.

ideological, zealous attitudes, who are sure they are right. They never

:42:48.:42:50.

tend to prosper within any political party. He will not bother within the

:42:51.:42:57.

Conservatives or UKIP. But we need to think about the direction of the

:42:58.:43:01.

Conservative Party. Do you think the Conservative Party should move

:43:02.:43:04.

towards Douglas Carswell's position? Absolutely not. If the Conservative

:43:05.:43:09.

Party even talks about deals with UKIP, it will lose the centre ground

:43:10.:43:13.

and loses ability to appeal to those who are worried that the Tories are

:43:14.:43:18.

rather right-wing. His directly, it has been proven time and again,

:43:19.:43:22.

particularly when there were Conservative leaders who did move to

:43:23.:43:25.

the right on issues like the EU and immigration, this is a different

:43:26.:43:30.

time, but do you think they can win on that agenda? This is a much more

:43:31.:43:34.

subtle question that might not fit a debate very well. The simple fact is

:43:35.:43:41.

that Cameron's modernisation has unfortunately been surpassed by the

:43:42.:43:44.

modernisation of the financial populace, people for the use on the

:43:45.:43:50.

state have changed. Then why not advise people to look at UKIP? If

:43:51.:43:54.

you are so sympathetic to what Douglas Carswell has done and you

:43:55.:43:57.

want the Tory party to emulate some of their policies, why not advise

:43:58.:44:02.

people to look at UKIP? Because I don't think UKIP offers the answers

:44:03.:44:05.

to this. If you saw Douglas Carswell today in our interview with him on

:44:06.:44:09.

Conservative Home, he takes on a passing voter on immigration who

:44:10.:44:14.

says they are not a threat to the NHS. Mark is not advising people to

:44:15.:44:20.

support UKIP, but there is a lot of dog whistling coming from the right

:44:21.:44:25.

and from Conservative Home. I have no doubt that a lot of those people

:44:26.:44:29.

would like to see a deal between the Tories and UKIP, and I think that

:44:30.:44:33.

would be disastrous for my party. Let's leave it there.

:44:34.:44:39.

The latest poll ahead of the referendum on Scottish independence

:44:40.:44:42.

has caused a big stir today, putting Alex Salmond's campaign to leave the

:44:43.:44:47.

UK only three percentage points away from victory. It is unlikely to

:44:48.:44:50.

lower the temperature in what has been a passionate debate, as you

:44:51.:44:54.

would expect, that at times has spilled over into outright

:44:55.:44:58.

hostility. Labour MP Jim Murphy as this morning resumed his one-man

:44:59.:45:01.

tour of Scotland to promote the union. He suspended it * after what

:45:02.:45:07.

he said was coordinated abuse from yes voters.

:45:08.:45:25.

I will not be silenced! Jim Murphy almost losing his voice there.

:45:26.:46:16.

Joining me now is the man himself from the Better Together campaign.

:46:17.:46:21.

We got the idea of what was going on there, is that a fair reflection of

:46:22.:46:26.

the nature of the campaign? There have been 100 meetings I have been

:46:27.:46:32.

to, and I am travelling around the country with my makeshift stage. For

:46:33.:46:38.

the first 70 meetings it was great old-fashioned politics, really good

:46:39.:46:49.

passionate politics. Men just after Alex Salmond lost the first TV

:46:50.:46:53.

debate, things took a turn for the worse and there was an aggressive,

:46:54.:46:59.

angry mob on the street of yes voters. These things didn't happen

:47:00.:47:04.

spontaneously so we paused it and started to -- again today in

:47:05.:47:16.

Edinburgh. Whoever noisily turned on the top of that political aggression

:47:17.:47:21.

has quietly over the weekend turned it off again and that is good. Some

:47:22.:47:27.

might say that is the rough and tumble of politics. Hopefully you

:47:28.:47:31.

won't get any more eggs lobbed at you. I couldn't care less about

:47:32.:47:44.

eggs. The point is when you turn up to meetings and the yes campaign

:47:45.:47:48.

have occupied the space where you are going to have the meetings,

:47:49.:47:56.

where people are routinely called a traitor and much worse in a

:47:57.:47:59.

coordinated way, it is something much more

:48:00.:48:01.

coordinated way, it is something much sinister but I am glad that we

:48:02.:48:04.

paused for three days and now we can go onto the great democratic

:48:05.:48:10.

exercise which is the referendum. Which you are struggling with now,

:48:11.:48:16.

looking at the polls, because the no campaign is losing ground and Alex

:48:17.:48:20.

Salmond and the SNP are breathing down your neck as we speak. It was

:48:21.:48:25.

always going to be close and passionate. It is the biggest

:48:26.:48:29.

decision we are ever going to take. I worry about the fact that with a

:48:30.:48:34.

fortnight ago Scotland has no currency. Scotland doesn't know how

:48:35.:48:44.

interest rates would be run. But the second debate between Alistair

:48:45.:48:46.

Darling and Alex Salmond demonstrated that people have moved

:48:47.:48:49.

on from those issues, they wanted to know about issues like the NHS for

:48:50.:48:54.

example, how they might be affected with their pensions. They are right

:48:55.:48:59.

to be worried about those sorts of things, and with a fortnight ago we

:49:00.:49:01.

don't know what things, and with a fortnight ago we

:49:02.:49:05.

don't would happen to the pension system. We all pay into a system at

:49:06.:49:10.

the moment across the UK, and many pay into a private pension, and

:49:11.:49:17.

there is no sense what would happen if Scotland was independent.

:49:18.:49:19.

there is no sense what would happen if Scotland We cannot just say it

:49:20.:49:23.

will be all right on the night, Scotland deserves some answers.

:49:24.:49:30.

George Monbiot, do you have sympathy for Jim Murphy there? Do you think

:49:31.:49:36.

it has turned nasty? I defend his right to speak and it is great he is

:49:37.:49:40.

getting out there and speaking on the street but I think he is being a

:49:41.:49:45.

little bit precious about this. We are seeing a revival of fire and

:49:46.:49:50.

passion in politics and there has not been enough of that recently,

:49:51.:49:55.

with three parties who are almost indistinguishable. There is the

:49:56.:50:03.

possibility in Scotland of the yes vote, and there you see people

:50:04.:50:07.

really rediscovering what politics is all about, which is about letting

:50:08.:50:12.

your heartbeat and having some passion. When is the next one?

:50:13.:50:24.

Glasgow city centre, Edinburgh today and on Thursday in the nation's most

:50:25.:50:33.

important city, Glasgow. You should go! It is great that he is doing

:50:34.:50:39.

this, but I'm sure you don't expect... People in Glasgow will

:50:40.:50:45.

say, I yield to the honourable member. I am not worried about that,

:50:46.:50:49.

don't get me wrong. I knew what I was going to get. There are going to

:50:50.:50:56.

be hecklers, and that is fine, it is actually more

:50:57.:50:56.

be hecklers, and that is fine, it is actually enjoyable then, but there

:50:57.:51:02.

came a .3 days ago when it was no longer safe for the public. But it

:51:03.:51:10.

has moved on and I am really glad. Come and heckle me, George! We asked

:51:11.:51:18.

yes Scotland to appear but nobody was available.

:51:19.:51:21.

Sales of powerful vacuum cleaners have soared over the last few weeks

:51:22.:51:39.

as buyers have turned out. I'm told he never touches a vacuum cleaner at

:51:40.:51:44.

home but our reporter, Adam Fleming, is in the newsroom to give a

:51:45.:51:52.

demonstration. Do you know where the on button is? I have a bone to pick

:51:53.:51:57.

with you, you left the office total state. There are crisps, sugar, but

:51:58.:52:03.

luckily we have some vacuum cleaners here. This is one of the illegal

:52:04.:52:09.

ones because it uses more than 1600 watts, I am told sales for this went

:52:10.:52:20.

up by more than 380%. Let's get going. It is very quiet. Lovely,

:52:21.:52:29.

gliding across the carpet there. It has made very short work of the

:52:30.:52:36.

sugar. Will it manage the crisps? These are much harder. Look at that.

:52:37.:52:43.

The crisps are gone, amazing! So you cannot buy these any more, but you

:52:44.:52:49.

can buy these ones instead, which are about half the wattage, but have

:52:50.:52:55.

they got the same suction? Let's find out. Much less smooth on the

:52:56.:53:00.

carpet, and a bit quieter. The sugar has gone. Is it going to manage the

:53:01.:53:13.

crisps? There you go. They are gone. To my untrained eye the

:53:14.:53:21.

suction is exactly the same even though the wattage is different. We

:53:22.:53:26.

have heard from an expert today, the guy who runs the International

:53:27.:53:30.

Hoover Museum in Derbyshire and he says higher wattage is not

:53:31.:53:40.

necessarily of higher suckage back to you. I think you should do that

:53:41.:53:44.

more regularly in our offices! Listening to that is UKIP MEP Louise

:53:45.:54:06.

also. What was wrong with that? It is a flawed experiment because they

:54:07.:54:09.

are using new Hoovers and anybody who has once knows that over time

:54:10.:54:14.

suction disappears, it gets less and less. Suction is something to do

:54:15.:54:21.

with wattage according to James Dyson. He is an expert, one of our

:54:22.:54:27.

prime businessmen, so I am going to listen to him. He has launched

:54:28.:54:31.

already the judicial review because he is so worried about this because

:54:32.:54:36.

of that kind of test, a flawed experiment. Why should we be told

:54:37.:54:40.

what to do and which vacuum cleaner to buy? There is a payoff and it is

:54:41.:54:45.

between having a full and completely open choice as to what vacuum

:54:46.:54:48.

cleaner you want to buy and the damage you are doing to the global

:54:49.:54:53.

atmosphere. How much damage am I doing with my high wattage vacuum

:54:54.:55:00.

cleaner? It all contributes. It adds unnecessarily to the burden of

:55:01.:55:07.

greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Come on! Apparently this will save

:55:08.:55:13.

?8 per year, roughly, on an energy bill for the consumer but the length

:55:14.:55:18.

of time they will continue to Hoover for longer, that will negate that.

:55:19.:55:26.

If it is saving ?8 per year it doesn't negate it.

:55:27.:55:34.

You were saying in the Guardian and environmentalists should be based on

:55:35.:55:42.

science. Dyson would say that, because they are obviously trying to

:55:43.:55:46.

promote their high wattage appliances, but isn't it true that

:55:47.:55:51.

is what the EU is for? These are the organisations that will decide what

:55:52.:56:00.

it it -- what is better for us. Telling us how to live our lives

:56:01.:56:06.

once again. We have to look and think what is best for the consumer.

:56:07.:56:16.

Allergy UK have said allergy sufferers... It is a detriment to

:56:17.:56:20.

them because they will no longer be able to buy the vacuum cleaner they

:56:21.:56:25.

recommend. We have to put people first. It is a good point on

:56:26.:56:31.

allergies. Those dust mites now are far more widespread. We need those

:56:32.:56:36.

Hoovers. I have one myself, caused by house dust. It is not catching,

:56:37.:56:47.

is it? You are sitting far too close. Our vacuum cleaner, way below

:56:48.:56:56.

the threshold, does it adequately and you don't need these monstrous

:56:57.:57:01.

machines like military hardware in your house in order to do a good job

:57:02.:57:07.

of cleaning up. We don't need this constant profligate pointless use of

:57:08.:57:11.

unnecessary energy in order to power the economy. You said yourself,

:57:12.:57:16.

Louise, it is all about the consumer. As consumers they are also

:57:17.:57:20.

interested in Environ mental protection. Lots of consumers have

:57:21.:57:25.

changed their behaviour with recycling for example, and it hasn't

:57:26.:57:30.

been terrible, so why can't they do it over energy guzzling vacuum

:57:31.:57:38.

cleaners? I would say this is the thin end of the wedge. Vacuum

:57:39.:57:42.

cleaners will do nothing to hit the climate change targets. On their

:57:43.:57:51.

own! You have proved my point because I was going to say they have

:57:52.:57:54.

a list of other items they are going to do the same four, including

:57:55.:58:01.

hairdryers and kettles. You are against energy efficiency. My sister

:58:02.:58:09.

is a hairdresser, and this is going to affect her. She is the first

:58:10.:58:19.

one... Let George answered the question. If you have something that

:58:20.:58:25.

takes double the time, you are not saving energy. You have conceded

:58:26.:58:29.

that you save ?8 per year with the lower wattage vacuum cleaner, that

:58:30.:58:34.

means you are saving ?8 of energy, this is energy efficiency. You are

:58:35.:58:40.

going back on what you said at the beginning. But we have to vacuum for

:58:41.:58:48.

longer. Very quickly, will hairdryers and lawn mowers be next?

:58:49.:58:55.

They should be. We should be applying energy efficiency to all

:58:56.:59:00.

our products. That is all for today. Thank you to our guests,

:59:01.:59:05.

particularly to you, George, for being our guest of the day. Andrew

:59:06.:59:09.

is back from his holidays, finally, tomorrow. Goodbye.

:59:10.:59:28.

This year, the world's greatest half-marathon

:59:29.:59:37.

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