02/09/2014 Daily Politics


02/09/2014

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Daily Politics. Bad news for Boris Johnson, as his dream of a fantasy

:00:46.:00:49.

Island airport for London is finally killed off. He says the decision is

:00:50.:00:53.

short-sighted, so where does it leave the UK's airports?

:00:54.:00:58.

The Prime Minister says Britain might join American air strikes in

:00:59.:01:01.

Iraq and Syria, and he might do it without asking for Parliament's

:01:02.:01:05.

approval first. We will speak to an MP who wants him to act.

:01:06.:01:09.

They came to office promising to be the greenest government ever must

:01:10.:01:13.

how are they doing? We will speak to the Energy Secretary.

:01:14.:01:19.

New EU rules meant to stop the sales of powerful vacuum cleaners have led

:01:20.:01:23.

to a spike in sales. Is it a sensible way to cut our use of

:01:24.:01:26.

electricity, or idea that just sucks?

:01:27.:01:37.

All that in the next hour. With us for the whole of the programme today

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is the writer and environmentalist, George Monbiot. He describes himself

:01:42.:01:46.

as a rational troublemaker. You have been warned. He has written about

:01:47.:01:50.

his travels in dangerous parts of the world and today, he has made the

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hazardous journey to our temporary home at the BBC's new Broadcasting

:01:54.:01:59.

House. First today, the Labour Party has

:02:00.:02:03.

suspended four members this morning in the wake of the report into the

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Rotherham child abuse scandal. The four all held senior positions of

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responsibility in Rotherham in the 16 year period during which children

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are reported to have been abused by predominantly Asian men. This comes

:02:27.:02:30.

in the wake of a report last night that a researcher who raised the

:02:31.:02:34.

alarm over the abuse of teenage girls in rather more than a decade

:02:35.:02:39.

ago was sent on an ethnicity and diversity course by child protection

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officials who refused to act on her evidence. We are joined now from

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Westminster by Labour's shadow home affairs minister, Diana Johnson.

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What did Labour politicians no about what was going on in Rotherham? From

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the report that came out last week, there were clearly councillors in

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positions of authority who did not act when they should have. It is

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right that today, those councillors have been suspended. The government

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now need to take a leadership position. Labour is doing that by

:03:12.:03:14.

taking this action against Labour Party councillors, but I think

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Theresa May today needs to set out what the government is going to do.

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Two months ago, she announced the overarching enquiry into child

:03:26.:03:28.

protection, but we still don't have a chair for that or terms of

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reference, two years after Labour were saying we needed to have that

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national overarching enquiry. But the abuse was carried out over 16

:03:37.:03:39.

years. Labour were in power for most of that period. Why didn't senior

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politicians at Westminster no? There was a series of home secretaries

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under the Labour governments of those years. They were in power

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throughout this period, when most of these girls were being horribly

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abused by men, mostly of Pakistani heritage. Those are very good

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questions, the kind of questions we want to see addressed in this

:04:02.:04:06.

overarching child protection enquiry. But if Labour does not know

:04:07.:04:13.

what was going on, questions have two be asked about competence. Of

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course they do. When allegations were put to the police, they did not

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do anything about it. They said a 14-year-old girl who was having sex

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with a much older man, that was consensual, when it is clearly a

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crime. So for me, I want the Home Secretary to look at what the police

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should be doing in South Yorkshire in terms of bringing those

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perpetrators to prosecution where possible. She also should address

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the needs of the victims. We are talking about 1400 victims here and

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the support services are still not in place for them. Everyone would

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agree with that. What will worry people is why this did not come to

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the surface. The Home Office research we have talked about, the

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researcher was told she must never refer to the fact that the abusers

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were predominantly Asian men. Do you accept that there was a culture

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within parts of the lead party where political correct bus had gone mad?

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There is no excuse for not dealing with criminal events, irrespective

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of who did it. Was that a culture in the Labour Party? That is why this

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enquiry into child detection links in with what happened with Jimmy

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Savile in the BBC and the NHS. We need to look at what was going on

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culturally around these issues. But why did Labour miss it? You had a

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rotten borough. You have suspended four councillors and the leader has

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resigned. The police and crime commission is still there, suspended

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from the party. He was kicked out of the Labour Party. We made it clear

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that he should stand down. If you hold a position of authority as a

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counsellor, you are under obligation to ask difficult questions and

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scrutinise what officials are telling you, and that was not

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happening in Rotherham. I was the chair of social services in Tower

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Hamlets in the 90s and I remember having to ask difficult questions.

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As an obligation on all local authority councillors to do that are

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particularly the group who have been suspended today. Do you think

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politicians at senior government level at that time have no

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responsibility? Well, I don't know what they were all were not told. We

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know the police did not act and the councillors did not talk about this

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openly. They had a few meetings, but they did not have a public

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discussion or treat it as a priority. So I don't know what then

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went up to national government. But this clearly needs to be looked at

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and we need to find out who knew what at what point. That is why this

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enquiry is important. Former Labour MP Denis MacShane, who represented

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Rotherham, confessed that as a Guardian reader and liberal left

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the, he backed off from confronting the Muslim community over what was

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going on. Is that the truth of what happened here? People turned a blind

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eye because it was too difficult politically to look at this one

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community, because it would have perhaps cost them votes and seats?

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It is part of the truth. No one emerges well from this. It is

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disgraceful and unjustifiable if people were not investigated as a

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result of their ethnicity. But that is only part of the truth. Whether

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police were concerned, their attitude towards Jimmy Savile's

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victims was almost the same as their attitude towards the victims in

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Rotherham. They were treated with disrespect and not as if they were

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full citizens with equal rights. And there is no suggestion that Jimmy

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Savile is of act as Danny heritage and no suggestion that he was

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exempted from proper investigation because of his ethnicity. But do you

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accept that in this case, that was a barrier over a 16 year period, and

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do you not feel the Labour Party has to take sponsor billeting right up

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to the top about what happened on its own doorstep -- responsibility?

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Yes, there were evident failures of Labour councillors and officials all

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the way through. Even so, it is a bit rough to put it on current

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Labour politicians, some of whom were in short trousers at the time.

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But referring to those at the time, some of them are still MPs, but

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let's leave it there. Bad news for Boris Johnson this

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morning. His ambitious plan to build a new hub airport in London's Thames

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Estoril has been permanently grounded. The airports commission

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set up by the government to decide where to expand UK airport capacity

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said his puzzle, nicknamed Boris Island, was a nonstarter.

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Whether to expand the UK's airports and if so, where to do it is one of

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the trickiest issues facing the government. To deal with it,

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ministers that up an independent commission under Sir Howard Davies.

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It said the country needs one new runway by 2030. This morning, he

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ruled out the most ambitious option, a new hub airport on the Isle of

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grain in north Kent, proposed by Boris Johnson. Howard Davies said

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the plans could cost as much as ?90 billion, while there are doubts

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about its delivery and operation. That leaves three options still on

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the table for expansion in London - adding a third runway at Heathrow,

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lengthening and existing Heathrow runway and a new runway at Gatwick.

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The Davies commission will not decide until next summer after the

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election, but Boris Johnson is not happy. Now you have got to hear from

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others about their plans. We need some of the same clarity and

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boldness we have seen from the estuary airport solution. In the

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long term, people look at the reality of what is involved with a

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third runway and almost inevitably, a fourth runway at Heathrow. They

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will shy away from that. And people will say, what is the logical

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replacement? And they will look again at the estuary site. This is

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all looking more competitive for the London mayor, since he announced he

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is hoping to be selected as candidate in the Uxbridge seat where

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many of the people whom work at Heathrow live. We are doing now by

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the Mayor 's aviation adviser, and George Monbiot is still here.

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Daniel, were you surprised that it has been killed off by Howard

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Davies? Not entirely, because the whole process has been set up in

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such a way that it is difficult for a new airport idea to get any

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traction. Davies has been clear that he wants to look to 2030 rather than

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take a long-term view. He is only looking at one runway. None of that

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is in his remit from the government. That is what he has decided to do

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himself. He has also made it easier for private sector business people

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to put plans forward. But that is a reality, money is a critical issue.

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The Mayor's scheme was talking 70 to ?90 billion, a vast amount of money.

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And we have had controversy over HS2. People want a solution now.

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They need certainty, which is why they are focusing on other options.

:11:43.:11:46.

Well, I am not sure they are. If you look at Chambers of commerce up and

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down the country, they have been calling on Howard Davies not to take

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this option off the table. In terms of the cost, part of that is for the

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cost of the airport itself, which is not very different from the cost of

:12:01.:12:02.

building a new runway at Heathrow. The rest of it is road and rail

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access, it would have benefits for the estuary. Another part of

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intellectual dishonesty in the Davies process is that they loaded

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the whole cost of road and rail expansion to the cost of the

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project. I think the whole process is coming apart. It seems the

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argument has been made that you had your say, but you and Boris Johnson

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sound as though you are going to continue. Is there any point in

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pursuing a plant that has no chance of becoming a reality? But the

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airports commission is only a small part of the decision-making process

:12:47.:12:53.

to resolve this issue. No political party has agreed on it. Its primary

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purpose was to kick the whole thing beyond the general election. Howard

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is doing that successfully. But this will be a decision for the

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government after the election and politically, and expansion of

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Heathrow to three or four runways in the west of London is politically

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undeliverable, while a that Gatwick solution means saying goodbye to

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having an airport hub in London. There is a reason people keep coming

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back to the estuary idea. The other options don't work. Should that

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estuary option still be on the table? Piriz Boris Johnson, who

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supports all the government cuts, and yet when it comes to his pet

:13:43.:13:46.

project, he is prepared to spend ?70 billion. To me, that is indicative

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of what interests the Coalition Government and the Mayor, which is

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that they are happy to impose the most rigorous austerity upon the

:13:59.:14:01.

poor, make cuts to essential public services, but when it comes to their

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pet projects, they behave like gamblers in a Russian novel,

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engaging in Bullingdon debauchery as they rip through the Treasury, grab

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as many public assets as they can and stuff them into their cronies'

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pockets. It is an amazing case of double standards. I don't think

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George supports the estuary option, but it is a vanity project. He did

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not get around to saying it was a vanity project. He was flinging to

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many other insults around. The fact is that in this country, the

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government provides road and rail services. The edge bought itself,

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Inc -- the airport is about 25 billion, which would be paid for by

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the private sector, as it would at Heathrow. The roads and rail

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provided would give connectivity and economic growth to the history,

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which is an area which suffers from depression and has largely been

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ignored. It is legitimate to say that that is what politics is about.

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I do want to spend money on that, I would rather spend it on something

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else. That is what politics is about. It is not a vanity project. I

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did not say that. If it is of the table, one could argue there is no

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point in pursuing it. How much has City Hall spent on this? The mayor

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has spent ?4.25 million so far on this. He will not continue spending

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money now, will he? I think he will. It is all right for Howard

:15:40.:15:45.

Davies to say I am just going to focus on where you put the tarmac.

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What the mayor focuses on is that you have a city which, by 2030, when

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this wretched runway is built, will be 10 million. You have people

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crying out for homes already. You need to do something spatially to

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shape the city. Daniel has a point, doesn't he? Because when you were

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castigating this vanity project, the alternative is that you don't

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support either. There will be another runway at Gatwick or

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Heathrow or an extended runway. I don't believe any of them should

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happen. We have so many exciting means of communicating, and the idea

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that in the 21st-century, in order to talk to someone else you still

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need to get somebody up to 30,000 feet and fly them 4000 miles, this

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is an antiquated way of doing things. We are already seeing a

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major drop-off in demand from business and private passengers. We

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are not going to see the expansion of demand that the Government

:16:54.:17:01.

projects and it is crazy... That demand clearly is there. We should

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be talking about reducing capacity, and we can do that now that we have

:17:06.:17:10.

better technologies. It is not only the amount of damage it does to

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local people's lives, we are talking about the climate and the idea of

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expanding the airways is madness. Would you talk about that more now

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that you have lost the argument in London? India and China populations

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are reaching the level of income that they will want to fly. As an

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island we should nonetheless cut ourselves off from the principal

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means of access. As long as everyone understands exactly what George is

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saying, it will mean that you will be getting over to Paris and

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Amsterdam by whatever means you can do it, but there are very few ways

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of leaving an island except by vote or by air.

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Thank you. It was a big day in Parliament yesterday as MPs returned

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and David Cameron gave a statement on what turned out to be a summer of

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instability around the world. He spoke about the situation in Ukraine

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and how to deal with the terrorist threat at home but it was his

:18:30.:18:36.

suggestion that the UK could join US air strikes in Syria that has made

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waves. His responses to previous questions implied that he is open to

:18:42.:18:45.

the idea of direct military participation in the current air

:18:46.:18:49.

strikes to protect the Kurds. If that is the case, can he say so

:18:50.:18:56.

clearly now? If there was a direct threat to British national

:18:57.:18:59.

interests, or in the case of Libya when we had to react rapidly to

:19:00.:19:03.

prevent a catastrophe, we reserve the right to act immediately and

:19:04.:19:09.

inform the House of Commons afterwards. You have seen what the

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British government has done to date and I am listening carefully to the

:19:14.:19:16.

views of honourable members in this debate. The MP you saw was John

:19:17.:19:23.

Woodcock and he joins me now from outside Parliament. You heard David

:19:24.:19:29.

Cameron say yesterday that he is not ruling anything out when it comes to

:19:30.:19:34.

air strikes, do you think he should go further and send British planes

:19:35.:19:40.

and bonds above Iraq? Let's consider what is happening here. You have a

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humanitarian crisis that has not gone away in Syria and Iraq, it is

:19:46.:19:53.

getting worse and the weather is set to change. The Prime Minister talks

:19:54.:20:01.

about acting if there is a direct threat to our interests. The rise of

:20:02.:20:06.

these extremists, the Islamic State, will threaten our interests.

:20:07.:20:11.

The idea that they will get a lasting foothold in the Middle East

:20:12.:20:18.

is a real threat to our own borders, the prospect of sending back

:20:19.:20:24.

terrorists who will be intent on hitting British civilians, it

:20:25.:20:29.

doesn't seem right... On the one hand you have the Foreign Secretary

:20:30.:20:34.

saying other nations need to step up, we cannot leave it to the

:20:35.:20:40.

Americans all alone, and yet that is our position at present. We are not

:20:41.:20:45.

part of the military action. We are involved in various other things

:20:46.:20:48.

like surveillance and humanitarian issues. By calling for intervention,

:20:49.:20:55.

you are not on the side of public opinion, as you know. It is very

:20:56.:21:03.

difficult and not really the right thing to conduct really difficult

:21:04.:21:14.

and drenched foreign policy on opinion polls. It is our

:21:15.:21:23.

responsibility to do the right thing to keep the nation secure and it is

:21:24.:21:27.

unquestionably the right thing to deal directly and fully with the

:21:28.:21:36.

threat that ISIS, Islamic State, whatever they are going to be

:21:37.:21:40.

called, these extremists who will do anything they can to threaten our

:21:41.:21:44.

way of life in Britain and other countries, it is in our clear

:21:45.:21:50.

interests to act against them. Or will it cause more unrest and be

:21:51.:21:55.

more of a recruiting sergeant? You only have to look at recent air

:21:56.:22:00.

strikes in Libya, that has hardly left peaceful democratic government

:22:01.:22:06.

there. Ed Miliband was right yesterday when he spoke about the

:22:07.:22:10.

need for a proper international coalition against what is

:22:11.:22:15.

happening, what Islamic State are doing in the region. It is the

:22:16.:22:23.

neighbours of Iraq who have the most to fear and the most to lose from

:22:24.:22:30.

the rise of these people. We should be doing more about getting

:22:31.:22:32.

international efforts together, but the idea that this action actually

:22:33.:22:40.

makes the problem worse, I'm afraid it is a fallacy. Once you start

:22:41.:22:46.

accepting that, you play into the hands of people who would like us to

:22:47.:22:51.

sit back, who would like our nation just to let whatever happens in Iraq

:22:52.:22:58.

and Syria happen, then deal with the serious consequences further down

:22:59.:23:02.

the track. George Monbiot, what do you say to that? We know the terror

:23:03.:23:08.

threat level has been increased, the Prime Minister announced that at the

:23:09.:23:13.

end of last week. Should we be proactive and join the Americans? It

:23:14.:23:18.

is serious but just a year ago David Cameron recalled parliament to

:23:19.:23:22.

weighed in on the other side of the dispute, to start attacking Syria

:23:23.:23:28.

which proposes Islamic State. It seems that just about every armed

:23:29.:23:33.

intervention we have ever made in the Middle East has stoked problems

:23:34.:23:37.

rather than preventing problems and has contributed to the rise of

:23:38.:23:56.

jihadism. When they see our support for Israel, all of that contributes

:23:57.:24:01.

to the idea that Britain is an enemy of what some people consider to be

:24:02.:24:09.

Islam. Wouldn't it have been a disaster if we had gone into Syria,

:24:10.:24:15.

bearing in mind what has evolved? It has been a disaster that we did not

:24:16.:24:20.

intervene to help the moderate opposition in Syria who still exist

:24:21.:24:25.

but they are under the cosh from both sides, from the Islamic

:24:26.:24:30.

extremists and the Syrian government. I'm afraid it is a

:24:31.:24:37.

counsel of despair to say nothing can be done and risks being

:24:38.:24:42.

accompanied misrepresentation of Islam, which is a peaceful

:24:43.:24:48.

religion, to say that these barbaric extremists represent that religion.

:24:49.:24:57.

We have to leave it there. While we were discussing that, it has been

:24:58.:25:02.

announced that George Osborne's Autumn Statement went -- will be on

:25:03.:25:07.

December the 3rd. David Cameron made himself something

:25:08.:25:10.

of a hostage to fortune when he pledged to lead the greenest

:25:11.:25:15.

government ever in 2010, and many environmental groups claim that

:25:16.:25:21.

green issues have been driven down the agenda at Westminster ever

:25:22.:25:29.

since. He hung out with huskies and vowed to lead the greenest

:25:30.:25:35.

government ever but maybe David Cameron should have listened to

:25:36.:25:40.

ecological experts Tony Bennett and Kermit the frog. It is not easy

:25:41.:25:44.

being green when many of your backbenchers think climate change is

:25:45.:25:47.

not real and your own Chancellor worries green policies could slow

:25:48.:25:50.

down growth. So how is the Government doing? Under EU law by

:25:51.:25:56.

2020, 15% of our energy consumption every year should come from

:25:57.:26:01.

renewable resources. Currently it is 5%. The amount of energy generated

:26:02.:26:08.

from wind turbines is increasing too and one Sunday this August record

:26:09.:26:11.

was broken, the most energy generated ever in a single hour

:26:12.:26:16.

although it was a particularly blustery day. Tory MPs lost a lot

:26:17.:26:22.

about wind farms saying they are expensive and unreliable. Eric

:26:23.:26:26.

Pickles now decides whether they go ahead. Since 2013 he has said yes to

:26:27.:26:34.

two out of 17 applications. This is the first new nuclear plants in a

:26:35.:26:38.

generation. EDF will build it after they were offered a guaranteed price

:26:39.:26:44.

for its electricity, a price many campaigners felt was too high. It

:26:45.:26:51.

seems the Treasury's favourite fuel is gas, fracking that is taken out

:26:52.:26:56.

of the ground with water at high pressure. For campaigners, the

:26:57.:27:00.

so-called dash for gas is a disaster, producing too much carbon

:27:01.:27:08.

and potentially pollution too. What about consumers? The flagship scheme

:27:09.:27:19.

that gave out vouchers for people to carry out energy improvements had to

:27:20.:27:25.

close down because people stampeded to take it up, but when people

:27:26.:27:33.

complained about the cost of their bills, the Government cut levies for

:27:34.:27:36.

environmental policies. Kermit is right, it is not easy being green. I

:27:37.:27:43.

am green, and I think it is what I want to be. We are joined now by the

:27:44.:27:49.

Lib Dem Energy Secretary, Ed Davey, and of course George Monbiot is

:27:50.:27:51.

still here. You have had this long running battle with the Chancellor

:27:52.:27:54.

about the scale of pace for targets for cutting emissions, which you

:27:55.:27:58.

have won. We have more than doubled the amount of our electricity from

:27:59.:28:00.

renewable sources, now 15% and rising fast. We have doubled the

:28:01.:28:05.

amount of investment for future renewable electricity at record

:28:06.:28:09.

levels, more than double in the last Parliament, and legislated for the

:28:10.:28:14.

world's first-ever low carbon electricity market so we are moving

:28:15.:28:19.

fast on renewable electricity. We will come onto the renewables and

:28:20.:28:24.

how great you have been, but as I say, you have won that particular

:28:25.:28:29.

argument, despite George Osborne saying it could harm business

:28:30.:28:33.

competitiveness. Why is he wrong? Climate change is a critical issue

:28:34.:28:41.

for Britain and the world. We have to play our role in it, and that

:28:42.:29:01.

means investing in renewables and low carbon technologies. It also

:29:02.:29:14.

means working with our partners because we cannot do it a go on --

:29:15.:29:21.

do it alone. Why should Britain be ahead of our European competitors? I

:29:22.:29:31.

remember George Osborne saying we would be paying the price for

:29:32.:29:39.

unilaterally beating European partners, why don't we go at the

:29:40.:29:45.

same pace? It is about taking them with us. It is about agreeing a

:29:46.:29:49.

European target and effectively we are getting the climate change act

:29:50.:29:54.

that we passed in the UK, getting that in Europe,

:29:55.:29:54.

remember George Osborne saying we would be paying which is a huge

:29:55.:29:58.

achievement. If we pull this off, it will be the biggest green measure by

:29:59.:30:07.

this Government by a long way. Are you going to put a medal on his

:30:08.:30:11.

lapel for being the most green minister ever? He has toed the line,

:30:12.:30:14.

I will give him that, but the contradictions are vast. One of his

:30:15.:30:17.

responsibilities, at the same time as minimising the amount of carbon

:30:18.:30:19.

dioxide we produce is to maximise the economic recovery of the UK's

:30:20.:30:22.

oil and gas, to get as much as possible out of the ground. The

:30:23.:30:32.

carbon impact of coal is huge. But that might help with the lights on

:30:33.:30:37.

while we wait for nuclear to come on board. We have other ways. When we

:30:38.:30:47.

publish our carbon plan, that plan shows us, using a lot of oil and gas

:30:48.:30:53.

between petrol and diesel, the question is, where is that oil and

:30:54.:30:57.

gas going to come from? It could come from the Middle East. Or it

:30:58.:31:03.

could come from our own resources. By locking us into gas, you look is

:31:04.:31:08.

in for the next 50 years into a high carbon economy. Not with carbon

:31:09.:31:15.

capture and storage. We are leading in Europe. We have the two only

:31:16.:31:19.

large-scale carbon capture storage plants in Europe. One is gas, and

:31:20.:31:24.

one is coal. And how far have they got? Further than anyone else. Will

:31:25.:31:29.

there be a guarantee that there will be no new gas plants without carbon

:31:30.:31:35.

capture and storage? Otherwise, your pledge is nonsense. We have said,

:31:36.:31:38.

with the pledge is nonsense. We have said,

:31:39.:31:39.

with emission performance standard, that no new coal plant can be built

:31:40.:31:45.

without... But the question was about gas. I have asked you a

:31:46.:31:55.

straightforward question. It is an improvement, but it looks as into

:31:56.:31:59.

another form of fossil fuel. Gas power stations are being built now

:32:00.:32:03.

and in the early part of the next decade. They will come off-line

:32:04.:32:08.

before 2050. So what you really want me to argue is about gas powered

:32:09.:32:14.

stations built after 2030. Although I am the Secretary of State now in

:32:15.:32:18.

2014, being able to predict 2030 is a big difficult. But isn't it a case

:32:19.:32:24.

of long-term commitment? Yes, and that is where the fourth carbon

:32:25.:32:29.

budget, which you are right that some parts of government were not

:32:30.:32:32.

keen for it to be kept at the current level, I fought hard to

:32:33.:32:37.

maintain it at that level and we won. That sets targets through the

:32:38.:32:42.

next decade, which is critical to make sure we meet our climate change

:32:43.:32:47.

commitments. Let's see how committed you are to renewable resources. We

:32:48.:32:52.

mentioned in the film a target to generate 15% of electricity from

:32:53.:32:57.

renewable resources by 2020. It is currently 5%. Are you confident that

:32:58.:33:01.

that can be achieved? We are on track to do that. You have different

:33:02.:33:06.

sources for electricity, heating and transport. With electricity, we are

:33:07.:33:10.

targeting 30% renewable electricity by 2020 and we are on target to beat

:33:11.:33:15.

that. So the fact that we have grown viewable electricity so fast and we

:33:16.:33:20.

have this pipeline gives me confidence that we will meet those

:33:21.:33:24.

targets. And what happens beyond 2020? You have resisted EU calls for

:33:25.:33:30.

a binding target. That sounds like you don't have both in the

:33:31.:33:36.

renewables market. Let me explain. Through building the world's first

:33:37.:33:40.

ever low carbon electricity market, if you can go low carbon through

:33:41.:33:44.

durables or through carbon capture and storage or through nuclear, let

:33:45.:33:50.

me pay tribute to George. He is one of the environmentalists who say

:33:51.:33:55.

nuclear has to be part of your low carbon strategy. Because we are now

:33:56.:34:00.

reducing a low carbon electricity market, after 2020 unit targets to

:34:01.:34:04.

make sure investment will go into all low carbon forms. If you pick

:34:05.:34:11.

out one, it means you reduce the amount overall. If you are really

:34:12.:34:16.

ambitious and climate change, you need a technology for all. You are

:34:17.:34:24.

talking about investment into all the carbon technology forms, but at

:34:25.:34:27.

the same time, you are talking about an investment in gas, which locks us

:34:28.:34:31.

in. And you failed to answer my question. And the answer is no. You

:34:32.:34:41.

are saying, it will not be quite as bad as coal, so that of chocolate

:34:42.:34:46.

fudge cake, we will all be eating in the pie, which is not quite as bad

:34:47.:34:51.

for you, but we are not getting onto the low carb diet which is what we

:34:52.:34:55.

need. We have made it live sometime that you need to see gas as a bridge

:34:56.:35:02.

fuel away from coal as we invest in renewables and nuclear. But we will

:35:03.:35:13.

have 40 years with gas plants. Over time, you will see our gas

:35:14.:35:18.

consumption come down. Why? Because we are investing so much in low

:35:19.:35:23.

carbon. You are delaying it by going for gas rather than going straight

:35:24.:35:28.

to the low carbon alternatives. You don't believe renewable resources

:35:29.:35:31.

are inexpensive and efficient? You are going for gas instead? That is

:35:32.:35:37.

exactly what is happening. Let me bring some sanity into this

:35:38.:35:42.

conversation. You a mixed approach. That is why we are doing renewables,

:35:43.:35:48.

nuclear and energy efficiency. And carbon capture and storage. In

:35:49.:35:54.

future, gas can be burnt with carbon capture and storage. We are the only

:35:55.:36:02.

country in Europe with a gas carbon capture project. You two... But the

:36:03.:36:12.

once you are currently building do not have carbon capture and

:36:13.:36:16.

storage! Ed Davey, thank you! Now, what has happened to the

:36:17.:36:20.

Conservative Party lately? You can hardly have failed to notice that

:36:21.:36:26.

they were hit hard by the defection of the MP Douglas Carswell to UKIP.

:36:27.:36:29.

This morning, it was announced that the ensuing by-election, which the

:36:30.:36:34.

pollsters expect the Tories to lose, will be on October the night, the

:36:35.:36:39.

Prime Minister's birthday, no less. And there are plenty more

:36:40.:36:42.

conservative backbenchers unhappy with David Cameron's leadership.

:36:43.:36:46.

Former MP Matthew Parris has suggested that those on the right

:36:47.:36:49.

actually want to wreck the Prime Minister's chances of winning the

:36:50.:36:52.

next election. In a moment, we will speak to Matthew. First, I am joined

:36:53.:36:57.

in Westminster by the pollster Katherine Peacock of ComRes. Let's

:36:58.:37:02.

look at some of the polling. We know those who are interested in politics

:37:03.:37:06.

do not like divided parties. They absolutely don't. They also don't

:37:07.:37:09.

like divided government. The public did not want a coalition. But

:37:10.:37:16.

throughout the course of this Parliament, the public have seen

:37:17.:37:20.

Conservatives as divided. It is not just Europe. There are things like a

:37:21.:37:28.

marriage. And the majority of the public think the Conservatives are

:37:29.:37:33.

more divided now than under John Major. What about the issues that do

:37:34.:37:40.

appeal to voters, like immigration? The issue of immigration is really

:37:41.:37:44.

important to people. But the problem is that Europe is bound up in

:37:45.:37:53.

immigration. While the public are talking about immigration,

:37:54.:37:56.

politicians are speaking about Europe, and the two are not the same

:37:57.:38:01.

thing. Well, Matthew Parris is here in the studio, the former

:38:02.:38:07.

Conservative and the. We are also joined by Mark Wallace of the

:38:08.:38:09.

website Conservative Home. Matthew, you say that a conservative schism

:38:10.:38:14.

is all but inevitable, but we have been here before. One only has to

:38:15.:38:20.

look at Maastricht and John Major. Yes, we came close to schism on

:38:21.:38:24.

Maastricht, and John Major just managed to pull that one off. The

:38:25.:38:32.

right in the party have not gone away. They have never forgiven the

:38:33.:38:36.

party for Maastricht, and they are back. And I think they are now so

:38:37.:38:43.

bitter, so angry and so zealous in their anti-European ideology that

:38:44.:38:48.

they are prepared to destroy the unity of the Conservative Party to

:38:49.:38:53.

get it. Do you agree that there are people in the Conservative Party who

:38:54.:38:55.

are prepared to see the Conservative Party split over this? Well, I

:38:56.:39:00.

believe we should leave the European Union. Hopefully, I will not display

:39:01.:39:03.

too much bitterness during the discussion.

:39:04.:39:05.

Union. Hopefully, I will not display too much bitterness You are too

:39:06.:39:07.

young! I think Douglas Carswell made the wrong decision to defect to UKIP

:39:08.:39:13.

. That threatens the possibility of re-election in 2015. But it is not

:39:14.:39:20.

simple enough, or rather, it is too simple to say that Eurosceptics are

:39:21.:39:24.

somehow anti-conservative. I fear that the wrong lessons could be

:39:25.:39:28.

learnt from this. When talking about Eurosceptics, we are talking about a

:39:29.:39:32.

lot of people within the Conservative Party and possibly the

:39:33.:39:35.

Labour Party, but you are saying there is a division between the

:39:36.:39:40.

Eurosceptics and the Europhobes. Yes, we are all Eurosceptics, but

:39:41.:39:45.

the Europhobes just want out. They want out now. They don't care what

:39:46.:39:51.

deal Europe dashed David Cameron gets, they want out. They fear that

:39:52.:39:59.

David Cameron might win a referendum on Europe, so they would rather see

:40:00.:40:02.

the party go down in flames than have that happen. And from those

:40:03.:40:08.

flames, they see a pure, more right-wing and unambiguously

:40:09.:40:12.

anti-European Conservative Party emerge. When Douglas Carswell

:40:13.:40:18.

announced his defection, Europe was not the only issue he mention. He

:40:19.:40:24.

was talking about direct democracy, recall of MPs, open primaries. So

:40:25.:40:31.

his vision is slightly broader than you have portrayed. He was

:40:32.:40:34.

scrabbling together as many reasons as he could for resigning, but I

:40:35.:40:37.

think he resigned for opportunistic reasons. That is a misreading of

:40:38.:40:42.

Douglas Carswell. There are certainly anti-EU MPs and there have

:40:43.:40:46.

been since the 90s, whose main motivation in life is to leave the

:40:47.:40:50.

EU. But Douglas Carswell is not one of them. His Euroscepticism comes

:40:51.:40:56.

from a broader iconoclasm. He really believes we should have direct

:40:57.:41:00.

democracy. He wants power of initiative for referenda. His

:41:01.:41:04.

opposition to the EU stems from that. I don't think UKIP is the

:41:05.:41:08.

right vehicle to deliver that, but his main motivation... He must be

:41:09.:41:13.

crazy if he thinks UKIP is the right vehicle to deliver that. But think

:41:14.:41:17.

of the wider iconoclasm. If you have an Essex Roundhead attitude to life,

:41:18.:41:21.

he really wants to shake Westminster until parts of it fall down. Do you

:41:22.:41:28.

think that is a noble cause? I think he is mistaken. I don't think

:41:29.:41:32.

letting Ed Miliband in will get us a referendum. But is it a noble cause?

:41:33.:41:37.

It is noble to want to change our politics, to say that parties

:41:38.:41:43.

elected on a lower and lower proportion of a lower and lower

:41:44.:41:47.

turnout, that is not a solution for the future. Its troubles me that

:41:48.:41:50.

Douglas Carswell does not feel he can find hope with the

:41:51.:41:54.

Conservatives. There are elements in Conservative Home being very careful

:41:55.:41:58.

not to attack Douglas Carswell. There is an enormous amount of

:41:59.:42:02.

sympathy for him there, not just in Conservative Home, but among the

:42:03.:42:10.

Tory right generally. Well, it would be a mistake... He has betrayed the

:42:11.:42:14.

Conservative Party, hasn't he? I think he has made a horrible error.

:42:15.:42:19.

So why not condemn him? The crucial thing is, do you want to respond to

:42:20.:42:25.

the criticism, Carswell by slinging mud and accusing him of treason, off

:42:26.:42:31.

with his head etc? No, we should be asking why people like Douglas

:42:32.:42:33.

Carswell, someone who was a politician for the future, not the

:42:34.:42:36.

past, why doesn't he feel comfortable in our party? Why is he

:42:37.:42:42.

not the future? Every age produces politicians with strong

:42:43.:42:47.

ideological, zealous attitudes, who are sure they are right. They never

:42:48.:42:50.

tend to prosper within any political party. He will not bother within the

:42:51.:42:57.

Conservatives or UKIP. But we need to think about the direction of the

:42:58.:43:01.

Conservative Party. Do you think the Conservative Party should move

:43:02.:43:04.

towards Douglas Carswell's position? Absolutely not. If the Conservative

:43:05.:43:09.

Party even talks about deals with UKIP, it will lose the centre ground

:43:10.:43:13.

and loses ability to appeal to those who are worried that the Tories are

:43:14.:43:18.

rather right-wing. His directly, it has been proven time and again,

:43:19.:43:22.

particularly when there were Conservative leaders who did move to

:43:23.:43:25.

the right on issues like the EU and immigration, this is a different

:43:26.:43:30.

time, but do you think they can win on that agenda? This is a much more

:43:31.:43:34.

subtle question that might not fit a debate very well. The simple fact is

:43:35.:43:41.

that Cameron's modernisation has unfortunately been surpassed by the

:43:42.:43:44.

modernisation of the financial populace, people for the use on the

:43:45.:43:50.

state have changed. Then why not advise people to look at UKIP? If

:43:51.:43:54.

you are so sympathetic to what Douglas Carswell has done and you

:43:55.:43:57.

want the Tory party to emulate some of their policies, why not advise

:43:58.:44:02.

people to look at UKIP? Because I don't think UKIP offers the answers

:44:03.:44:05.

to this. If you saw Douglas Carswell today in our interview with him on

:44:06.:44:09.

Conservative Home, he takes on a passing voter on immigration who

:44:10.:44:14.

says they are not a threat to the NHS. Mark is not advising people to

:44:15.:44:20.

support UKIP, but there is a lot of dog whistling coming from the right

:44:21.:44:25.

and from Conservative Home. I have no doubt that a lot of those people

:44:26.:44:29.

would like to see a deal between the Tories and UKIP, and I think that

:44:30.:44:33.

would be disastrous for my party. Let's leave it there.

:44:34.:44:39.

The latest poll ahead of the referendum on Scottish independence

:44:40.:44:42.

has caused a big stir today, putting Alex Salmond's campaign to leave the

:44:43.:44:47.

UK only three percentage points away from victory. It is unlikely to

:44:48.:44:50.

lower the temperature in what has been a passionate debate, as you

:44:51.:44:54.

would expect, that at times has spilled over into outright

:44:55.:44:58.

hostility. Labour MP Jim Murphy as this morning resumed his one-man

:44:59.:45:01.

tour of Scotland to promote the union. He suspended it * after what

:45:02.:45:07.

he said was coordinated abuse from yes voters.

:45:08.:45:25.

I will not be silenced! Jim Murphy almost losing his voice there.

:45:26.:46:16.

Joining me now is the man himself from the Better Together campaign.

:46:17.:46:21.

We got the idea of what was going on there, is that a fair reflection of

:46:22.:46:26.

the nature of the campaign? There have been 100 meetings I have been

:46:27.:46:32.

to, and I am travelling around the country with my makeshift stage. For

:46:33.:46:38.

the first 70 meetings it was great old-fashioned politics, really good

:46:39.:46:49.

passionate politics. Men just after Alex Salmond lost the first TV

:46:50.:46:53.

debate, things took a turn for the worse and there was an aggressive,

:46:54.:46:59.

angry mob on the street of yes voters. These things didn't happen

:47:00.:47:04.

spontaneously so we paused it and started to -- again today in

:47:05.:47:16.

Edinburgh. Whoever noisily turned on the top of that political aggression

:47:17.:47:21.

has quietly over the weekend turned it off again and that is good. Some

:47:22.:47:27.

might say that is the rough and tumble of politics. Hopefully you

:47:28.:47:31.

won't get any more eggs lobbed at you. I couldn't care less about

:47:32.:47:44.

eggs. The point is when you turn up to meetings and the yes campaign

:47:45.:47:48.

have occupied the space where you are going to have the meetings,

:47:49.:47:56.

where people are routinely called a traitor and much worse in a

:47:57.:47:59.

coordinated way, it is something much more

:48:00.:48:01.

coordinated way, it is something much sinister but I am glad that we

:48:02.:48:04.

paused for three days and now we can go onto the great democratic

:48:05.:48:10.

exercise which is the referendum. Which you are struggling with now,

:48:11.:48:16.

looking at the polls, because the no campaign is losing ground and Alex

:48:17.:48:20.

Salmond and the SNP are breathing down your neck as we speak. It was

:48:21.:48:25.

always going to be close and passionate. It is the biggest

:48:26.:48:29.

decision we are ever going to take. I worry about the fact that with a

:48:30.:48:34.

fortnight ago Scotland has no currency. Scotland doesn't know how

:48:35.:48:44.

interest rates would be run. But the second debate between Alistair

:48:45.:48:46.

Darling and Alex Salmond demonstrated that people have moved

:48:47.:48:49.

on from those issues, they wanted to know about issues like the NHS for

:48:50.:48:54.

example, how they might be affected with their pensions. They are right

:48:55.:48:59.

to be worried about those sorts of things, and with a fortnight ago we

:49:00.:49:01.

don't know what things, and with a fortnight ago we

:49:02.:49:05.

don't would happen to the pension system. We all pay into a system at

:49:06.:49:10.

the moment across the UK, and many pay into a private pension, and

:49:11.:49:17.

there is no sense what would happen if Scotland was independent.

:49:18.:49:19.

there is no sense what would happen if Scotland We cannot just say it

:49:20.:49:23.

will be all right on the night, Scotland deserves some answers.

:49:24.:49:30.

George Monbiot, do you have sympathy for Jim Murphy there? Do you think

:49:31.:49:36.

it has turned nasty? I defend his right to speak and it is great he is

:49:37.:49:40.

getting out there and speaking on the street but I think he is being a

:49:41.:49:45.

little bit precious about this. We are seeing a revival of fire and

:49:46.:49:50.

passion in politics and there has not been enough of that recently,

:49:51.:49:55.

with three parties who are almost indistinguishable. There is the

:49:56.:50:03.

possibility in Scotland of the yes vote, and there you see people

:50:04.:50:07.

really rediscovering what politics is all about, which is about letting

:50:08.:50:12.

your heartbeat and having some passion. When is the next one?

:50:13.:50:24.

Glasgow city centre, Edinburgh today and on Thursday in the nation's most

:50:25.:50:33.

important city, Glasgow. You should go! It is great that he is doing

:50:34.:50:39.

this, but I'm sure you don't expect... People in Glasgow will

:50:40.:50:45.

say, I yield to the honourable member. I am not worried about that,

:50:46.:50:49.

don't get me wrong. I knew what I was going to get. There are going to

:50:50.:50:56.

be hecklers, and that is fine, it is actually more

:50:57.:50:56.

be hecklers, and that is fine, it is actually enjoyable then, but there

:50:57.:51:02.

came a .3 days ago when it was no longer safe for the public. But it

:51:03.:51:10.

has moved on and I am really glad. Come and heckle me, George! We asked

:51:11.:51:18.

yes Scotland to appear but nobody was available.

:51:19.:51:21.

Sales of powerful vacuum cleaners have soared over the last few weeks

:51:22.:51:39.

as buyers have turned out. I'm told he never touches a vacuum cleaner at

:51:40.:51:44.

home but our reporter, Adam Fleming, is in the newsroom to give a

:51:45.:51:52.

demonstration. Do you know where the on button is? I have a bone to pick

:51:53.:51:57.

with you, you left the office total state. There are crisps, sugar, but

:51:58.:52:03.

luckily we have some vacuum cleaners here. This is one of the illegal

:52:04.:52:09.

ones because it uses more than 1600 watts, I am told sales for this went

:52:10.:52:20.

up by more than 380%. Let's get going. It is very quiet. Lovely,

:52:21.:52:29.

gliding across the carpet there. It has made very short work of the

:52:30.:52:36.

sugar. Will it manage the crisps? These are much harder. Look at that.

:52:37.:52:43.

The crisps are gone, amazing! So you cannot buy these any more, but you

:52:44.:52:49.

can buy these ones instead, which are about half the wattage, but have

:52:50.:52:55.

they got the same suction? Let's find out. Much less smooth on the

:52:56.:53:00.

carpet, and a bit quieter. The sugar has gone. Is it going to manage the

:53:01.:53:13.

crisps? There you go. They are gone. To my untrained eye the

:53:14.:53:21.

suction is exactly the same even though the wattage is different. We

:53:22.:53:26.

have heard from an expert today, the guy who runs the International

:53:27.:53:30.

Hoover Museum in Derbyshire and he says higher wattage is not

:53:31.:53:40.

necessarily of higher suckage back to you. I think you should do that

:53:41.:53:44.

more regularly in our offices! Listening to that is UKIP MEP Louise

:53:45.:54:06.

also. What was wrong with that? It is a flawed experiment because they

:54:07.:54:09.

are using new Hoovers and anybody who has once knows that over time

:54:10.:54:14.

suction disappears, it gets less and less. Suction is something to do

:54:15.:54:21.

with wattage according to James Dyson. He is an expert, one of our

:54:22.:54:27.

prime businessmen, so I am going to listen to him. He has launched

:54:28.:54:31.

already the judicial review because he is so worried about this because

:54:32.:54:36.

of that kind of test, a flawed experiment. Why should we be told

:54:37.:54:40.

what to do and which vacuum cleaner to buy? There is a payoff and it is

:54:41.:54:45.

between having a full and completely open choice as to what vacuum

:54:46.:54:48.

cleaner you want to buy and the damage you are doing to the global

:54:49.:54:53.

atmosphere. How much damage am I doing with my high wattage vacuum

:54:54.:55:00.

cleaner? It all contributes. It adds unnecessarily to the burden of

:55:01.:55:07.

greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Come on! Apparently this will save

:55:08.:55:13.

?8 per year, roughly, on an energy bill for the consumer but the length

:55:14.:55:18.

of time they will continue to Hoover for longer, that will negate that.

:55:19.:55:26.

If it is saving ?8 per year it doesn't negate it.

:55:27.:55:34.

You were saying in the Guardian and environmentalists should be based on

:55:35.:55:42.

science. Dyson would say that, because they are obviously trying to

:55:43.:55:46.

promote their high wattage appliances, but isn't it true that

:55:47.:55:51.

is what the EU is for? These are the organisations that will decide what

:55:52.:56:00.

it it -- what is better for us. Telling us how to live our lives

:56:01.:56:06.

once again. We have to look and think what is best for the consumer.

:56:07.:56:16.

Allergy UK have said allergy sufferers... It is a detriment to

:56:17.:56:20.

them because they will no longer be able to buy the vacuum cleaner they

:56:21.:56:25.

recommend. We have to put people first. It is a good point on

:56:26.:56:31.

allergies. Those dust mites now are far more widespread. We need those

:56:32.:56:36.

Hoovers. I have one myself, caused by house dust. It is not catching,

:56:37.:56:47.

is it? You are sitting far too close. Our vacuum cleaner, way below

:56:48.:56:56.

the threshold, does it adequately and you don't need these monstrous

:56:57.:57:01.

machines like military hardware in your house in order to do a good job

:57:02.:57:07.

of cleaning up. We don't need this constant profligate pointless use of

:57:08.:57:11.

unnecessary energy in order to power the economy. You said yourself,

:57:12.:57:16.

Louise, it is all about the consumer. As consumers they are also

:57:17.:57:20.

interested in Environ mental protection. Lots of consumers have

:57:21.:57:25.

changed their behaviour with recycling for example, and it hasn't

:57:26.:57:30.

been terrible, so why can't they do it over energy guzzling vacuum

:57:31.:57:38.

cleaners? I would say this is the thin end of the wedge. Vacuum

:57:39.:57:42.

cleaners will do nothing to hit the climate change targets. On their

:57:43.:57:51.

own! You have proved my point because I was going to say they have

:57:52.:57:54.

a list of other items they are going to do the same four, including

:57:55.:58:01.

hairdryers and kettles. You are against energy efficiency. My sister

:58:02.:58:09.

is a hairdresser, and this is going to affect her. She is the first

:58:10.:58:19.

one... Let George answered the question. If you have something that

:58:20.:58:25.

takes double the time, you are not saving energy. You have conceded

:58:26.:58:29.

that you save ?8 per year with the lower wattage vacuum cleaner, that

:58:30.:58:34.

means you are saving ?8 of energy, this is energy efficiency. You are

:58:35.:58:40.

going back on what you said at the beginning. But we have to vacuum for

:58:41.:58:48.

longer. Very quickly, will hairdryers and lawn mowers be next?

:58:49.:58:55.

They should be. We should be applying energy efficiency to all

:58:56.:59:00.

our products. That is all for today. Thank you to our guests,

:59:01.:59:05.

particularly to you, George, for being our guest of the day. Andrew

:59:06.:59:09.

is back from his holidays, finally, tomorrow. Goodbye.

:59:10.:59:28.

This year, the world's greatest half-marathon

:59:29.:59:37.

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. She discusses the government's green policies with energy and climate change secretary Ed Davey. She also looks at what the government's options are over the crisis in Iraq.


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