23/09/2014 Daily Politics


23/09/2014

Andrew Neil is in Manchester with the latest news and analysis from the Labour party conference, including interviews with Caroline Flint and Hilary Benn.


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Welcome to Manchester where it's Ed Miliband's big day.

:00:00.:00:07.

Can the Labour leader overcome his dire personal poll ratings

:00:08.:00:10.

and convince voters he's Prime Minister material?

:00:11.:00:58.

The US leads air strikes against Islamic State in Syria

:00:59.:01:03.

A mansion tax on houses worth over ?2 million to pay for increased

:01:04.:01:10.

spending on the NHS - that's Ed Miliband's eye-catcher today.

:01:11.:01:13.

They're seen it a threat to the Tories but how much could UKIP

:01:14.:01:22.

damage Labour in next year's general election?

:01:23.:01:25.

Some say he saved the union in last week's referendum. We ask delegates

:01:26.:01:29.

here if it's time for a Gordon Brown comeback?

:01:30.:01:35.

It just seemed to have a different sort of spunk to him, if that's oar

:01:36.:01:44.

word I can use. Is Ed Miliband liking it, though? Is Ed Miliband

:01:45.:01:46.

less spunky? Yes, most definitely. All that in the next hour,

:01:47.:01:53.

with the Ed Miliband speech to come First this morning, let's take stock

:01:54.:01:56.

of how this conference is going. I'm joined by Dave Wooding

:01:57.:01:59.

of the Sun on Sunday and Elizabeth What do you make of the mood of the

:02:00.:02:12.

conference? It is a bit flat, Andrew. There isn't much verve.

:02:13.:02:16.

There are not many speeches that seem to ignite the audience. We

:02:17.:02:21.

spoke to one Shadow Cabinet Minister yesterday and he said, "We are

:02:22.:02:25.

steady as she goes." It feels you are on the cusp of potentially

:02:26.:02:30.

returning to power but there doesn't seem to be a belief you can do it. I

:02:31.:02:35.

remember the 1996 Labour Conference, the year before the landslide in

:02:36.:02:45.

'97. I remember the year before, the year before they thought they were

:02:46.:02:48.

going to win. The mood is very different. Yes, if you run the clock

:02:49.:02:51.

back, there was a sweeping feeling of change. Their time had come. You

:02:52.:02:55.

knew it was going to be there and you sensed the build-up to a general

:02:56.:02:58.

election. We are only eight months away from a general election now.

:02:59.:03:01.

You wouldn't think it was around the corner. This is his last speech

:03:02.:03:05.

before the general election, judging the mood here, very flat. I would

:03:06.:03:10.

say, you have to have some sympathy for him. His conference is wedged

:03:11.:03:14.

between the Scottish referendum and now, air strikes in Syria, and so,

:03:15.:03:18.

it is events, isn't it, events have overtaken. And even overshadowed.

:03:19.:03:24.

Yes and he is dropping down the news event at the moment he needs to make

:03:25.:03:30.

the pitch to the English - well, the English - the British voters. Well

:03:31.:03:33.

he has a particular pitch to make to the English voters. One of the

:03:34.:03:36.

questions they have struggled to answer here from the start is

:03:37.:03:41.

English votes for English laws proposition the Prime Minister has

:03:42.:03:46.

stuck on them. That has overshadowed the whole thing. Everyone you talk

:03:47.:03:49.

to, we are all talking about Scottish devolution. The problem Ed

:03:50.:03:54.

Miliband has, is if he backs Cameron's pledge or desire to have

:03:55.:03:59.

English votes for English laws, he then automatically cuts out 40

:04:00.:04:04.

Scottish MPs and voters, so it is not in his political interest. It is

:04:05.:04:08.

a very difficult argument to sell. To the people So it is tricky. Is it

:04:09.:04:14.

true, all the good stuff has been kept for Mr Mill ban's speech this

:04:15.:04:23.

afternoon? Is it -- Mr Ed Miliband's speech this afternoon Is he says - I

:04:24.:04:28.

need to all to make an impact. Last year, he had the freeze on the

:04:29.:04:33.

energy prices. Which set the political temperature. It will be

:04:34.:04:36.

interesting to see what he has this year. He is talking about bread and

:04:37.:04:39.

butter issues to get away from the English question. Nevertheless, I

:04:40.:04:42.

think the thing he needs to give us at the conference speech this

:04:43.:04:46.

afternoon, is not so many eye-catching initiatives, let's be

:04:47.:04:50.

honest, there isn't the image. More so, he has proproject himself as a

:04:51.:04:54.

leader a future Prime Minister which I don't think many people see him as

:04:55.:04:57.

at the moment. You mentioned the issue at the moment, dominating the

:04:58.:05:03.

headlines. With the Arab allies, but without Britain in Iraq and now into

:05:04.:05:07.

Syria do we have any idea what the idea of the policy of the Labour

:05:08.:05:11.

Party is, should Britain decide what it wants to do? It is fluid. The

:05:12.:05:16.

story broke overnight but the early-morning sense we are getting

:05:17.:05:20.

is they are more supportive of going into Syria. You remember that they

:05:21.:05:24.

basically helped defeat... Last year, the vote. But I don't think

:05:25.:05:28.

they actually have a firm position. I checked in this morning, and there

:05:29.:05:33.

has been no official contact between the Prime Minister and Ed Miliband

:05:34.:05:35.

over it. Parliament going to be recalled? I would probably put money

:05:36.:05:39.

on maybe Friday. I think they'll have to recall Parliament. And then

:05:40.:05:42.

the Prime Minister has to make up his mind what he is going to ask

:05:43.:05:48.

Parliament to do. Is he going to ask Parliament simply to support air

:05:49.:05:51.

strikes in Iraq? Or is he going to ask what is now happening, air

:05:52.:05:56.

strikes in Iraq and Syria. Do we know? We don't at this stakes. There

:05:57.:06:00.

are talks already going on with Iran, which is quite bizarre when

:06:01.:06:03.

they were funding operations against our soldiers which led to many

:06:04.:06:08.

deaths in the Basra region. He did tee up his MPs a couple of would hes

:06:09.:06:13.

ago on this, with the whips ringing round. There haven't been any calls

:06:14.:06:16.

to MPs this morning apparently. One MP said to me that he didn't think

:06:17.:06:21.

Cameron would make any mood on this, until the fate the hostages is

:06:22.:06:24.

decided one way or the other. If he does go in and they have got

:06:25.:06:28.

hostages, it is too high risk. One of the things I found here is, it

:06:29.:06:32.

has been quite difficult to get some of the details out of Shadow Cabinet

:06:33.:06:38.

people on the poll si.s he spoke to Rachael Reeves yesterday to find out

:06:39.:06:45.

-- I spoke to Rachael Reeves to find out is Ed Balls going to balance the

:06:46.:06:50.

current budget or overall budget. That was not clear but that was

:06:51.:06:54.

nothing on what happened on LBC this morning with Miss Looefs. What is

:06:55.:06:58.

the pension at the moment for an elderly person? Just under ?100. The

:06:59.:07:06.

basic state pension. Is it? Around ?100 a week. I thought it was ?113.

:07:07.:07:14.

It is around ?100. So you don't know what the pension is. It depends how

:07:15.:07:18.

many years you have contributed to a pension. Well, actually, on the

:07:19.:07:25.

basic state pension, it doesn't, really, it is the basic state

:07:26.:07:31.

pension. Wouldn't you expect the Shadow Pensions Spokesperson to

:07:32.:07:36.

know. Well, look, the whole point of that is they are trying to show that

:07:37.:07:40.

they are credible on the economy, and on spending and they have got to

:07:41.:07:45.

show voters they are not just going to get into power and spend loads of

:07:46.:07:48.

money they haven't got. Shouldn't you know what the pension is, if you

:07:49.:07:53.

are the Shadow Pension Secretary? You absolutely should. Absolutely.

:07:54.:07:56.

You should know how you are going to balance the books. It is not good.

:07:57.:08:00.

It is one of these basic stuff questions - you ask somebody a

:08:01.:08:04.

standard question they should know and they should know it. They know

:08:05.:08:09.

deep policy but not basic stuff. How could the Labour Party accuse George

:08:10.:08:14.

Osborne and David Cameron being two posh boys who don't know the of a

:08:15.:08:21.

pint of milk when she doesn't know the price of the basic state

:08:22.:08:23.

pension. Thank you very much. So overnight the US and its Arab

:08:24.:08:28.

allies launched airstrikes against It marks a significant widening

:08:29.:08:31.

of the US bombing campaign, which up to now has only attacked

:08:32.:08:35.

the Jihadists in Iraq. Let's talk to our correspondent

:08:36.:08:37.

in Washington, Barbara Plett Usher. Barbara. I suppose the President

:08:38.:08:47.

told us he was going to widen the war, and this is it not happening on

:08:48.:08:52.

the ground or from the air? Yes, he gave lots of lead time. He announced

:08:53.:08:57.

it in a speech nearly two weeks ago. He didn't say when exactly it would

:08:58.:09:02.

happen, so it wasn't unexpected, so we didn't know when to expect it and

:09:03.:09:08.

now it has happened. What the US central command has reported, is

:09:09.:09:11.

quite a big series of air strikes, carried out with the help of Arab

:09:12.:09:16.

allies in the region. It says five Arab regions helped in some

:09:17.:09:20.

capacity, including some who, we understand, actually carried out

:09:21.:09:26.

some of the air strikes against Islamic state targets, which, the

:09:27.:09:34.

control said were damaged. The supplies themselves, supply depots

:09:35.:09:38.

and so on but also central command said separately the United States

:09:39.:09:46.

forces attacked a network of Al-Qaeda veterans who are serious

:09:47.:09:49.

Syria to plot attacks against Western interests and the United

:09:50.:09:53.

States, rere kruting Western fighters with those, experimenting

:09:54.:09:56.

with explosives and so on. That's separate from the Islamic state

:09:57.:10:01.

threat - Islamic state being the militant group that's focussed on

:10:02.:10:05.

the Middle East, crossing borders and taking territory which has

:10:06.:10:08.

helped the United States convince its allies that it is a threat to

:10:09.:10:13.

the region. Barbara, I would think it is quite a significant

:10:14.:10:19.

achievement for Mr Obama to get five Arab allies to join him in these air

:10:20.:10:23.

strikes? It is a very significant achievement. The Arab countries,

:10:24.:10:30.

Arab Sunni Muslim countries, do not like to be seen to be bombing other

:10:31.:10:36.

Arab countries or other Arab movement, especially a Sunni

:10:37.:10:39.

movement like Islamic state. That's an achievement in itself plus they

:10:40.:10:43.

have a lot of internal ditcheses and squabbles. They have different

:10:44.:10:46.

national interests and competing interests. They have backed

:10:47.:10:49.

different proximityies, for example, in the Syrian war. This is the one

:10:50.:10:55.

thing they can agree on, that Islamic state is a threat to all

:10:56.:10:58.

because it is expansionist, it is crossing borders, bumping up against

:10:59.:11:01.

their borders. The Jordanians are afraid because they have had

:11:02.:11:05.

skirmishes with Islamic state on fwhierders. Checkpoints have

:11:06.:11:10.

exchanged hands. The Americans are to convince the Islamic states that

:11:11.:11:16.

it threatens them. I think this is something that President Obama will

:11:17.:11:19.

highlight at the US General Assembly where he is set to make an

:11:20.:11:23.

appearance today and in a couple of days next week, where he will seek

:11:24.:11:26.

to strengthen the coalition and he will argue - I have support in the

:11:27.:11:30.

region, so you should support me, too. Thank you very much.

:11:31.:11:40.

We can speak now to the Conservative MP, John Baron, a member of the

:11:41.:11:44.

Foreign Affairs Select Ccommittee, who joins us from Westminster and

:11:45.:11:46.

Labour MP, John Woodcock, who takes a big interest in defence matters.

:11:47.:11:49.

John Baron, what do you see as the figures of this development of

:11:50.:11:56.

taking the war against IS into Syria? I think the good news is we

:11:57.:12:01.

are involving regional allies, it is very positive. The symbolism of the

:12:02.:12:05.

West alone defeating this caliphate would be profoundly negative. But,

:12:06.:12:09.

Andrew, certain key questions still remain unanswered. I mean, what is

:12:10.:12:13.

the follow-up plan? If we all accept that air strikes alone will not

:12:14.:12:16.

defeat IS, what is the follow-up plan? If there isn't one, we are

:12:17.:12:23.

entering a cul de sac. Secondly, if we degradism S sufficiently, who is

:12:24.:12:27.

going to take their place. -- de-Grade Icy. S sufficiently. Who

:12:28.:12:37.

will take their place? Thirdly, the Syrian war, last year we were siding

:12:38.:12:42.

the with the rebels, this year we seem to be now - is there a clear

:12:43.:12:46.

policy with this? And finally f we don't get Iraq right and drive IS

:12:47.:12:54.

out of northern Iraq, then actually Syria is almost an irrelevance. Do I

:12:55.:13:03.

take it from anything you have said that you are happy that is not

:13:04.:13:08.

involved in the air strikes? I am for the moment. We must be clear

:13:09.:13:12.

about this. These are questions that need answering before we can commit

:13:13.:13:15.

troops, air strikes and resource to this. Don't forget, Parliament is

:13:16.:13:20.

right to ask these questions. Our track record, invading Iraq in 2003,

:13:21.:13:30.

the disastrous Morphing of the Afghan nation -- war into nags

:13:31.:13:36.

building and in areas where civil wars have got so bad and changing

:13:37.:13:41.

sides in the civil war, we haven't covered ourself in glory. We need to

:13:42.:13:45.

make sure we are clear and have clear answers to these important

:13:46.:13:47.

questions. John Woodcock where are you on this? I think action is going

:13:48.:13:52.

to be necessary. I would like to see it led by Iraq and Syria's

:13:53.:13:55.

neighbours. I think it is pretty important. They are there with the

:13:56.:13:59.

Americans now. They are. For me it simply doesn't make sense for us to

:14:00.:14:05.

stand outside of that, given how we are directly affected. The British

:14:06.:14:11.

people are directly affected by the threat of allowing these Isil

:14:12.:14:18.

extremists to get a sustained foot hole. John Baron is right in the

:14:19.:14:23.

need to have a plan beyond this, but military action is not sufficient on

:14:24.:14:26.

its own but it is necessary to beat them back. I would feel deeply

:14:27.:14:31.

uncomfortable if we repeated what I believe was a mistake, in both the

:14:32.:14:35.

Prime Minister in screwing up the vote last year on Syria and also on

:14:36.:14:40.

my side in not backing it. To clarify, are you in favour of the

:14:41.:14:44.

British being involved in air raids, which include not just Iraq, but

:14:45.:14:48.

also Syria? Well, I think we should state that it is on a military

:14:49.:14:55.

level, in tackling Isil, it is right to want to take action across the

:14:56.:15:00.

border. Now, the legal question is different - and it has to be - that

:15:01.:15:05.

has to be resolved. But this is a border which, Isil themselves don't

:15:06.:15:12.

respect. Is poorest and we have a regime in Syria which the British

:15:13.:15:16.

Government doesn't respect as legitimate, so, there is a need to

:15:17.:15:17.

take action there. What does it do for our standing

:15:18.:15:26.

with Washington if most of America's allies seem to be involved

:15:27.:15:31.

in this except Britain? Sometimes it is right for good friends to ask

:15:32.:15:36.

serious questions. We did not participate in the Vietnam war and

:15:37.:15:39.

yet within 15 years of that war ending, we had the best of

:15:40.:15:42.

relationships. Sometimes you have got to ask awkward questions. In

:15:43.:15:47.

fact, friends thank you for that. There is no point looking at Syria

:15:48.:15:52.

if we cannot get Iraq right. We have an Iraqi army that seems to be doing

:15:53.:15:55.

nothing, despite being 20 times the size of ISIS. They should be driving

:15:56.:16:01.

ISIS out of northern Iraq. Meanwhile, it does come down to

:16:02.:16:04.

politics. Soldiers can only buy you time. In the politics of Iraq, there

:16:05.:16:09.

was no sign that we are making progress. We have got rid of the

:16:10.:16:12.

sectarian Nouri al-Maliki, but we are not sure that what has taken his

:16:13.:16:17.

place is inclusive. There are a lot of people in high positions in the

:16:18.:16:24.

political spectrum. John Woodcock, can I put to you your report in the

:16:25.:16:27.

New York Times this morning, which is just hitting the streets of

:16:28.:16:32.

America as we speak. After six weeks of American air strikes, the Iraqi

:16:33.:16:35.

government's forces have scarcely budged the Sunni extremists of

:16:36.:16:39.

Islamic State from their hold on more than a quarter of the country.

:16:40.:16:46.

They may have stopped the extremists' March, but they have not

:16:47.:16:49.

robbed them back. The government has acknowledged that it has lost

:16:50.:16:54.

control of another town to Islamic State. So air strikes are not having

:16:55.:16:59.

any effect. Well, you cannot necessarily draw from that that they

:17:00.:17:04.

are having no effect. They have stopped the advance, but they are

:17:05.:17:07.

not rolling them back. It could be that they need to be stepped up.

:17:08.:17:13.

This is after six weeks. That may suggest that there is an increased

:17:14.:17:16.

case for Britain to be part of the next wave. The alternative is a

:17:17.:17:25.

counsel of despair, to say there is nothing we can do. I understand why

:17:26.:17:29.

people look back at the history of Iraq over the last ten years and say

:17:30.:17:33.

we failed to do what we ought to have done as a country to

:17:34.:17:39.

reconstruct the country properly. But for me, that means we have an

:17:40.:17:44.

increased responsibility to stop ISIL getting a proper hold. We need

:17:45.:17:50.

to put the country on a more sustained footing. John Baron, you

:17:51.:18:01.

are in Westminster. Is Parliament going to be recalled on Friday? As

:18:02.:18:05.

far as many of us are concerned, there is no need to recall

:18:06.:18:09.

Parliament, provided that government policy does not change. The

:18:10.:18:11.

government said it is thinking about its options and it will consult

:18:12.:18:16.

Parliament if it wants to put a particular case for military

:18:17.:18:19.

intervention. So unless the government has changed its mind or

:18:20.:18:22.

it is going to take a course of action which it thinks contravenes

:18:23.:18:26.

the promise it made to many of us that it will not take action unless

:18:27.:18:29.

they have recalled parliament, there is no need. So if Parliament is

:18:30.:18:35.

recalled, your view is that that will be because the Prime Minister

:18:36.:18:39.

wants to change policy and get parliament to approve the bombing of

:18:40.:18:46.

Iraq and probably Syria? We have a cast-iron promise from the

:18:47.:18:50.

government. A number of us secured this, that there will be no military

:18:51.:18:55.

intervention without Parliament's consent. So if he recalls

:18:56.:18:59.

Parliament, the implication is that he wants to change policy or has

:19:00.:19:05.

decided on a policy where he needs the consent of Parliament. Until we

:19:06.:19:09.

get to that point, there is no need to recall Parliament. The official

:19:10.:19:15.

line from the government, quite rightly, is that we are reviewing

:19:16.:19:24.

our options. Only fools rush in, and I'm afraid the UK, in the past, has

:19:25.:19:30.

been doubtful too often. -- that fool. John Woodcock, do the

:19:31.:19:35.

Americans really care? They have massive airpower in the region. They

:19:36.:19:40.

have five Arab allies involved in the air strikes, which is very

:19:41.:19:42.

symbolic. The French are there as well. Our contribution militarily

:19:43.:19:48.

would be marginal. They don't need us. Well, the British armed forces

:19:49.:19:52.

remain one of the best in the world. I think it is in our interest as a

:19:53.:19:58.

country to be part of this. They don't need our air force. Actually,

:19:59.:20:05.

if we do intervene, it will be so that we can add value properly. We

:20:06.:20:11.

have the capacity to do that, and there are wider benefits from us

:20:12.:20:17.

being part of a coalition which is being underpinned by America, but is

:20:18.:20:24.

being led by the Arab neighbours of a state which is deeply threatening

:20:25.:20:31.

to those countries. Thank you both for joining us.

:20:32.:20:36.

Here is what the Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas Alexander had to

:20:37.:20:39.

say about the latest developments in Syria a few moments ago. ISIL

:20:40.:20:44.

represent a threat not just a regional security in the Middle

:20:45.:20:47.

East, but to international security. So we understand and

:20:48.:20:51.

support the action that has been taken both by the United States and

:20:52.:20:57.

Arab allies in recent hours. But the Prime Minister and the president are

:20:58.:21:00.

due in the United Nations this week, so we are now urging that a

:21:01.:21:04.

resolution be brought to the Security Council of the United

:21:05.:21:07.

Nations. Let's go now to JoCo, who has

:21:08.:21:13.

arrived in Manchester. She is lurking somewhere in the conference

:21:14.:21:17.

centre. In fact, I am right outside the hall

:21:18.:21:23.

where the speed she will be given later today. A highlight of any

:21:24.:21:29.

party conference is the leader's speech, so how will Ed Miliband fair

:21:30.:21:33.

this afternoon? Some say a lot depends on how people perceive the

:21:34.:21:38.

speech giver. So we have taken a look at Ed's poll ratings over his

:21:39.:21:41.

time as Labour leader. Ed Miliband wants to pull it out of

:21:42.:21:46.

the bag with his speech today, but his personal poll ratings are

:21:47.:21:49.

consistently week. In January 2011, people did not like him. He had an

:21:50.:21:56.

approval rating of -15, which decreased to -19 by October 2012 and

:21:57.:22:03.

plummeted to -33 on August 2013. It is now -32. David Cameron fared

:22:04.:22:08.

better over the same period, with approval ratings of one, -13 and

:22:09.:22:15.

-11, rising back to -1 this month. Even in Scotland, Ed was unable to

:22:16.:22:19.

edge in front of the Prime Minister. On the eve of the referendum, 25% of

:22:20.:22:25.

Scots trust of him, compared with 26% for the Prime Minister. But

:22:26.:22:28.

perhaps it does not matter what Ed says today. His current popularity

:22:29.:22:33.

rating may be at -32%, but this has not affected perceptions of Labour.

:22:34.:22:37.

They are the only party with a positive rating, at a lofty 6%.

:22:38.:22:46.

Let's talk to Ben Page, the chief executive of Ipsos MORI. So in

:22:47.:22:49.

short, listening to those figures, people broadly like the band, but

:22:50.:22:55.

not the lead singer? Absolutely. Ed Miliband's ratings have drifted down

:22:56.:22:59.

slowly ever since he became leader and are now similar to those of

:23:00.:23:03.

William Hague before the 2001 general election, which he did not

:23:04.:23:07.

win. But is there a difference between poor poll ratings for

:23:08.:23:13.

leaders, who also have poor ratings for the party they represent? Here,

:23:14.:23:18.

the party is more popular than the leader. Can Labour still win with

:23:19.:23:22.

those personal poll ratings? It has not been done before, but the fact

:23:23.:23:26.

that the Labour Party remains popular than the Conservative Party

:23:27.:23:29.

not in the vote but if you ask people about how they just feel

:23:30.:23:33.

about the parties, the Conservatives are the most unpopular party. 57% of

:23:34.:23:37.

us say we don't like them. So although Cameron does better, he is

:23:38.:23:41.

not President Obama or Tony Blair better. And the party is making up

:23:42.:23:45.

for some of Ed Miliband's weaknesses. So with this talk about

:23:46.:23:51.

presidential style elections here in Britain, are you saying that if all

:23:52.:23:55.

three leaders do not pull brilliantly, Ed Miliband fares

:23:56.:23:59.

better? Yes. It is not just how you do, but who you are up against. If

:24:00.:24:03.

your competitor is not brilliant either, you have a better chance

:24:04.:24:07.

full of the net ratings of all three main party leaders are now some of

:24:08.:24:13.

the lowest they have ever been. People are also not just voting on

:24:14.:24:17.

the character of the leaders. Even in 2010 during the leadership

:24:18.:24:19.

debates, people said they were as likely to vote on the policies of

:24:20.:24:25.

the party as well as the leaders. Since the 2010 election, perhaps

:24:26.:24:28.

because it is a ox on all your houses, they are more likely to say

:24:29.:24:33.

it is about policy. So it does not help, but he is certainly not down

:24:34.:24:38.

and out. So you are saying that if Labour wins, they win by the fault

:24:39.:24:42.

rather than taking a nation with an? Yes, this is what we call the war of

:24:43.:24:47.

the week. How inspiring! That is where we are. All precedents suggest

:24:48.:24:52.

that this election will be very close. Ed Miliband cannot afford to

:24:53.:24:56.

mess up this afternoon or on any other occasion. But he is not down

:24:57.:25:01.

and out, particularly as he only needs a 2.8% lead in the polls to be

:25:02.:25:05.

in with a chance of winning. What about when people are standing in

:25:06.:25:10.

the polling booth? If you are not a tribal party voter and you always do

:25:11.:25:15.

not put a cross by one of the main parties, what will be the deciding

:25:16.:25:19.

factor? Is it not who you imagine as Prime Minister? There is and to

:25:20.:25:23.

that. Lynton Crosby, the Conservatives' adviser, will be

:25:24.:25:30.

trying to focus on that. Labour will try to focus on their competence

:25:31.:25:35.

over things like the NHS. So it is extra things. -- a mixture of

:25:36.:25:47.

things. So even if they did not like Ed Miliband, people could easily put

:25:48.:25:50.

a cross by Labour? Well, they already do in the polls all the

:25:51.:25:55.

time. His ratings even amongst Labour voters are fairly divided

:25:56.:26:01.

compared to David Cameron's ratings among conservative voters, and yet

:26:02.:26:04.

they are ahead in the polls. But about comparisons with Tony Blair?

:26:05.:26:10.

He rated extremely high. Tony Blair is exceptional. I doubt I will ever

:26:11.:26:15.

see anybody win three consecutive elections as a Labour leader. His

:26:16.:26:19.

ratings after he became Prime Minister and running up to becoming

:26:20.:26:22.

Prime Minister work pretty much unprecedented, far better than Mrs

:26:23.:26:26.

Thatcher's. Tony Blair was a phenomenon. Ed Miliband may not

:26:27.:26:33.

compare to that. And he probably would not want to. But does he need

:26:34.:26:44.

to improve from the -32? He needs to set up to his stall clearly. He

:26:45.:26:50.

cannot ever be "normal", here's a north London intellectual. I don't

:26:51.:26:54.

know what advice he is getting about speech delivery and style. These

:26:55.:26:58.

things do matter. It is like job interviews. They say people make up

:26:59.:27:01.

their mind in the first 16 seconds, and he needs to work on that.

:27:02.:27:10.

Now, he has been credited by some for saving the union, because you

:27:11.:27:16.

can never be sure, but Gordon Brown's late intervention in the

:27:17.:27:19.

referendum campaign, with his passionate speeches, certainly

:27:20.:27:22.

brought the no campaign some much-needed energy. So is it time

:27:23.:27:26.

for the former Prime Minister to make a comeback? We sent Adam out

:27:27.:27:29.

with his balls to find out what people think.

:27:30.:27:32.

There is a lot of buzz around Gordon Brown, who found a new lease of life

:27:33.:27:36.

on the independence referendum campaign trail. But do people want

:27:37.:27:41.

him on the front line of politics, or should he stay on the

:27:42.:27:46.

backbenches? It is ironic that David Cameron, of all people, had to ask

:27:47.:27:50.

Gordon Brown to rescue the no campaign. So a man of his ability

:27:51.:27:58.

should begin in consideration. I think he should be on the Treasury.

:27:59.:28:04.

Like Shadow Chancellor? Maybe not, maybe something like a junior. Do

:28:05.:28:11.

you think Lord Browne would accept a junior spokesperson's roll? I don't

:28:12.:28:16.

see that -- Gordon Brown. You would have him back straightaway? Yes. You

:28:17.:28:22.

think history has treated him unfairly? He saved all my savings,

:28:23.:28:29.

thank you, Gordon. I would say backbench in England, front line for

:28:30.:28:33.

Scotland. He could make a huge difference in Scotland. Johann

:28:34.:28:38.

Lamont did not want to do our survey on which is maybe just as well,

:28:39.:28:41.

because many have said Gordon Brown should replace her. His plans were

:28:42.:28:49.

excellent for the economy, but people did not believe him. But he

:28:50.:28:53.

did lose the last election spectacularly. Yet, because people

:28:54.:29:01.

believed the press. Let's find out if Gordon is selling well here. At

:29:02.:29:08.

the book shop. Is Gordon Brown's took flying off the shelves? -- his

:29:09.:29:15.

book? Not especially. A bunch of lads did come in yesterday just to

:29:16.:29:19.

touch Tony Blair's face. It is true! He just seems to have a

:29:20.:29:29.

different spunk to him, if that is a word I can use. Is Ed Miliband less

:29:30.:29:36.

punky? Most definitely. The UN Gordon still speak? -- to you and

:29:37.:29:44.

Gordon still speak? It was a fair fight, I just felt he would not win

:29:45.:29:48.

the election for us. I will take that as a no. No, we speak. No hard

:29:49.:29:55.

feelings? We share a lift and we have a chat, usually about football.

:29:56.:30:01.

If he comes around the corner, I am going to cry. These of joy? I am not

:30:02.:30:08.

sure joy is the word. Given in Duncan 's at the moment and the

:30:09.:30:11.

hardship he is putting a lot of people through, Gordon Brown could

:30:12.:30:18.

be a good antidote. Have you just fired a ritual reeves on television

:30:19.:30:24.

and replaced her with Gordon Brown? Ask Rupert Murdoch and his friend

:30:25.:30:27.

Alex Salmond to play bloody games, don't ask me. Would you like to give

:30:28.:30:34.

him a toast? To Gordon! Well, the man himself says he is too old to be

:30:35.:30:37.

a comeback kid and too young to be an elder statesman, but the message

:30:38.:30:40.

from Labour Party conference is clear. Gordon, they want you back.

:30:41.:30:46.

I'm joined now by the Shadow Energy Secretary, Caroline Flint.

:30:47.:30:48.

Do you want Gordon back? I tell you what, it was great having Gordon

:30:49.:30:56.

back a few weeks ago. He may not be on the frontbench in Parliament but

:30:57.:30:59.

he is still there when you need him on the frontline of politics. Nobody

:31:00.:31:03.

can take away from him what a great character but also force he has on

:31:04.:31:06.

that one. Interesting point. What is the answer to my question. I think

:31:07.:31:10.

it is about the role he wants to play. We have a team, under Ed

:31:11.:31:13.

Miliband, and we are going to take that forward. I'm not going to

:31:14.:31:16.

second-guess what Gordon wants to do. I was asking what you wanted him

:31:17.:31:21.

toy do. He may be asking now. What should he do? It is good to see you,

:31:22.:31:25.

Gordon in the frontline of politics. It is good to have you when we need

:31:26.:31:30.

you and it is good when you are part of my team. You won't answer my

:31:31.:31:34.

question. I have. Should he come back? I think he has his own future

:31:35.:31:38.

he is thinking about. I think we have a good team, an excellent team

:31:39.:31:41.

to lead us into the next general election. You once say he used you

:31:42.:31:46.

as window dressing Said on that area I disagreed with Gordon because he

:31:47.:31:49.

wasn't giving women enough prominence in the Cabinet. I stand

:31:50.:31:54.

by that. I never take away the contribution Gordon played as

:31:55.:31:57.

Chancellor and our party and last week he stepped up when you needed

:31:58.:32:02.

him. Why didn't Ed Miliband thank him yesterday when he thanked

:32:03.:32:05.

everybody else for saving the union. I think he has many times. He didn't

:32:06.:32:10.

do it yesterday when he was going through the roll call. And the man,

:32:11.:32:15.

who many here think really saved the union, didn't get a thank you from

:32:16.:32:19.

Ed Miliband. I think Gordon Brown knows how much he is appreciated. He

:32:20.:32:24.

was overshadowed by Mr Brown. Ed Miliband had no cut through in

:32:25.:32:30.

Scotland it was Mr Brown. I tell you who had cut through. When you have

:32:31.:32:36.

Gordon and Allister and Margaret, playing the role, what has cut

:32:37.:32:40.

through is the policies we are putting forward which Scots

:32:41.:32:44.

recognise will be good for them. If that has cut through, why is Ed

:32:45.:32:49.

Miliband's personal ratings lower than Mr Camerons? Personal ratings,

:32:50.:32:55.

may not show how people are going to vote but when you look... Lower than

:32:56.:33:01.

the Prime Minister Some Prime Minister like Margaret Thatcher's

:33:02.:33:04.

personal ratings haven't been that high. When you did ask people about

:33:05.:33:09.

who is most in touch, they say Ed Miliband, and when you put forward

:33:10.:33:12.

the policies helping people, they are more popular than what Cameron

:33:13.:33:16.

is espousing. Lets look at policies. This mansion tax, how much money

:33:17.:33:20.

will it raise? We are looking at well over ?1 billion. How much over?

:33:21.:33:25.

Well, I think it is about ?1.5 billion to ?2 billion. It is not

:33:26.:33:30.

quite clear at the moment. Hold on. The amount matters. Of course it

:33:31.:33:33.

matters. You have said this money is going to the NHS, to make up a short

:33:34.:33:38.

fall Hang on a second. So how much will the NHS get from the mansion

:33:39.:33:42.

tax? Hang on a second. We have said we will have a mansion tax. That has

:33:43.:33:46.

been on the stock. What we haven't declareside where the money will be

:33:47.:33:49.

going. Ed Miliband will be making in his speech this afternoon, details

:33:50.:33:52.

about the NHS and I will not second guess that. We have been briefed by

:33:53.:33:55.

the Labour Party that the mansion tax proceeds will go to the NHS.

:33:56.:33:59.

Have you not been told that? Ed Miliband is making his speech this

:34:00.:34:02.

afternoon. We have already been told that's what he is going to say. Can

:34:03.:34:06.

I get back to the money. How much do you think this mansion tax will

:34:07.:34:10.

raise? If the mansion tax is going to support the NHS, it is not the

:34:11.:34:14.

only thing we need to look at in terms of the NHS. I understand that.

:34:15.:34:18.

I will come on to other things. Caroline Flint, you are announcing

:34:19.:34:20.

policy. You bring in the mansion tax, part of the extra funding for

:34:21.:34:24.

the NHS, you have a duty to the people watching this programme to

:34:25.:34:27.

tell them how much will it will bring in. Ed Miliband will be

:34:28.:34:29.

outlining this afternoon in his speech how the mansion tax will be

:34:30.:34:34.

used. Can I say about the NHS, part is also saving money currently being

:34:35.:34:39.

wasted and making sure we get value for bringing health and social care

:34:40.:34:42.

together and quality and also to make sure we get value for money.

:34:43.:34:45.

Gep, the kangesds - the Liberal Democrats claimed the mansion tax

:34:46.:34:49.

would bring in ?1.7 billion. Interesting your policy advisors

:34:50.:34:54.

saying only ?1.2 billion. Let me ask you this, because it is becoming a

:34:55.:34:59.

key part of your pitch that Mr Miliband will announce it this

:35:00.:35:02.

afternoon. How will you go about identifying those houses that are

:35:03.:35:05.

worth over ?2 million. That will be part of the detail we will be

:35:06.:35:09.

looking at with Ed Balls and their team and setting out that in due

:35:10.:35:15.

course. The mansion tax is one part of our policy. You are talking about

:35:16.:35:19.

it as if it is the only policy. I perfectly accept it is not. It is

:35:20.:35:24.

not in itself the major plank. How will you identify those homes that

:35:25.:35:28.

are worth more than ?2 million, without having a property valuation

:35:29.:35:32.

across the country?. That is something we will be consulting on.

:35:33.:35:36.

We will outline the details in due course. You must have given thought

:35:37.:35:41.

to T Thought has been given to it. Share those with me Advice has been

:35:42.:35:46.

given in different quarters. We have not identified exactly how we will

:35:47.:35:49.

do that. We will set out our ideas. Consultation will make that happen.

:35:50.:35:52.

Will the mansion tax apply to Scotland? It is an English situation

:35:53.:35:56.

at the moment. But we will take soundings from our Scottish

:35:57.:35:59.

colleagues as well. It won't apply to Scotland? Those are the issues we

:36:00.:36:03.

have to talk about with our Scottish and Welsh colleagues in the devolved

:36:04.:36:07.

parliaments and Assembly. If it doesn't apply to Scotland, would it

:36:08.:36:10.

be right that Scottish MPs could vote on a mansion tax that applies

:36:11.:36:14.

only to England? I think there is going to be a huge debate over the

:36:15.:36:18.

course of the next year. Would that be fair? Hang on a second. There

:36:19.:36:22.

will be a huge debate over the course of the next year about more

:36:23.:36:25.

devolutionary powers to Scotland but also what should happen in England.

:36:26.:36:28.

Part that of discussion will undoubtedly be around English MPs

:36:29.:36:32.

and their power to scrutinise legislation just for England. I'm

:36:33.:36:36.

sure it'll come out in due course. Let's talk about where the other

:36:37.:36:40.

money has come from, because NHS England, let's stick with England,

:36:41.:36:43.

predicts the health service needs an extra ?30 billion over the five or

:36:44.:36:47.

six years. The mansion tax, when you work it out, may give you about ?5

:36:48.:36:52.

billion of that. Where is the other ?25 billion coming from? Tlard

:36:53.:36:56.

issues in the NHS. There is no doubt about that. -- there are hard

:36:57.:36:59.

issues. Part of the problem is money has been wasted on the

:37:00.:37:02.

reorganisation but also, I have to say, if I look at something like

:37:03.:37:06.

health and social care, not just as a politician in Westminster but a

:37:07.:37:10.

local MP, I know there are lots of savings that can be made by bringing

:37:11.:37:14.

that together. How much of savings of the ?25 billen still outstanding?

:37:15.:37:19.

It is about setting out our priorities to tackle this. There is

:37:20.:37:23.

no simple way for me today to say - this is where you are going to find

:37:24.:37:27.

T it is good accouncy, value for money and making sense of the

:37:28.:37:30.

services you provide and making sure the money is not going on corporate

:37:31.:37:33.

lawyers aimed at putting services out to tender. You said to me, when

:37:34.:37:37.

we started the interview, it is not just the mansion tax to give us

:37:38.:37:41.

extra money for the NHS, we should talk about the other areas. I am now

:37:42.:37:45.

asking you, where does the other ?25 billion come from? Part of what we

:37:46.:37:52.

can contribute in the NHS is making better use of health and social care

:37:53.:37:56.

where there is a lot of repetition. How much of that will be the ?25

:37:57.:37:59.

billion? More of the details of this policy Ed Miliband will be outlining

:38:00.:38:02.

this afternoon. That's for him to announce. You can't tell me where

:38:03.:38:05.

the other ?25 billion is coming from I'm telling you, there is a speech

:38:06.:38:08.

this afternoon where Ed Miliband will outline what we can do to

:38:09.:38:12.

support the NHS going forward. It is a huge challenge, you are right.

:38:13.:38:16.

Unforetoon ately. Will he tell us where the other ?25 billion is

:38:17.:38:19.

coming from? Despite organisation, we find we are losing money and

:38:20.:38:22.

people can't see a GP and waiting times are going up. I understand all

:38:23.:38:26.

of that, I wanted answers on the money. Anyway, we'll wait for the

:38:27.:38:30.

speech and see if it is more illuminating. Good.

:38:31.:38:35.

As we talked about earlier the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary,

:38:36.:38:38.

Rachel Reeves, had a tricky exchange on the radio this morning.

:38:39.:38:41.

Yesterday afternoon, however, she had an easier ride

:38:42.:38:42.

Be incoming Labour Government will have to make tough choices on

:38:43.:38:51.

resources and priorities. -- an incoming Labour Government. But

:38:52.:38:56.

we'll tackle the reasons for the rising Social Security bill by

:38:57.:39:00.

building an economic recovery that leaves no-one behind, which is how

:39:01.:39:04.

we can share a system that is fair and affordable so we can keep up our

:39:05.:39:08.

fight against child and pensioner poverty, upholding and renewing the

:39:09.:39:12.

principles upon which our welfare state was built. Responsibility and

:39:13.:39:15.

opportunity for all who can work, dignity for those who cannot. Hard

:39:16.:39:19.

work and contribution, recognised and rewarded. Those are my values

:39:20.:39:24.

and this is my mission. So, this is how we will deliver it. Step one, a

:39:25.:39:30.

compulsory jobs guarantee to help all young people into work, so

:39:31.:39:33.

no-one is left be unemployment benefits for years on end. Step two,

:39:34.:39:39.

a basic skills test so we intervene early to tackle skills gaps so

:39:40.:39:43.

no-one is left for a life on benefits. Step three, a youth

:39:44.:39:46.

allowance that means young people who lack key qualifications are

:39:47.:39:50.

expected and supported to get the skills they need. Step four, replace

:39:51.:39:55.

the failing work programme, with power devolved to local councils and

:39:56.:40:00.

communities, rather than topdown contracts signed in Whitehall.

:40:01.:40:06.

APPLAUSE Step five, ensure that the pensions

:40:07.:40:11.

market works for all working people, so we can save for our retirement

:40:12.:40:16.

with confidence. Step six, ensure that disabled people who can work,

:40:17.:40:20.

get the tailored support that they need.

:40:21.:40:25.

Right. That was Rachael Reeves this morningment let's go back to Jo.

:40:26.:40:28.

-- this morning. UKIP is just the Conservatives

:40:29.:40:32.

problem - right? Nigel Farage has often claimed that

:40:33.:40:34.

UKIP also appeals to a large number of traditional Labour

:40:35.:40:38.

supporters as well. So, has Labour awoken too late

:40:39.:40:40.

to the threat UKIP might pose? They may not take any of Labour's

:40:41.:40:43.

seats, but in key marginals Labour need to

:40:44.:40:46.

win, they could take vital votes. Giles has been to Thurrock where

:40:47.:40:50.

Labour are having to battle Thurrock in Essex has had better

:40:51.:41:05.

times. Deepwater docks that hired workers to haul goods, not shopping

:41:06.:41:11.

and paid good wages to pay for T but memberisation and zero hours

:41:12.:41:14.

contracts means less so, now. It has a rapedly changing community and

:41:15.:41:17.

immigration is a word as common here as the desire to make your heritage

:41:18.:41:20.

very clear. A population that has now had a

:41:21.:41:27.

Labour and Tory MP is being fiercely wooed by UKIP. One ex-Labour man is

:41:28.:41:32.

on the council for them. We are niend this country with regards

:41:33.:41:37.

aschools, housing, jobs, you name T -- we are behind in this country.

:41:38.:41:41.

You only have to look around. You go to any building site you wish and

:41:42.:41:45.

you would be lucky to hear an English voice. We don't blame the

:41:46.:41:49.

guys coming over, obviously from where they are from, they are trying

:41:50.:41:52.

to better themselves but what about us? What about our people? Surely we

:41:53.:41:59.

should come first. Labour, on the ground here, are well aware of those

:42:00.:42:05.

attitudes. If Thurrock contains enough blue-collar, fewer

:42:06.:42:09.

qualifications working white people, who once sat comfortableably as

:42:10.:42:13.

Labour, it also happens that's the same demographic who have the

:42:14.:42:16.

potential to see UKIP as an option. UKIP fancy their chances here at the

:42:17.:42:19.

general election but some Labour-supporting analysts say the

:42:20.:42:23.

real risk here for the party and in other seats like it, is Labour's

:42:24.:42:27.

challenge to the Conservatives - whose majority here is just 93 -

:42:28.:42:33.

gets blunted by UKIP. If that happened in enough marginals Labour

:42:34.:42:38.

want for a majority, it might cost them Number Ten. It it is not just

:42:39.:42:44.

UKIP who say they are a threat to Labour. Serious Labour people who

:42:45.:42:48.

want a victory at the next election have been krnching numbers and

:42:49.:42:51.

looking at this for sometime. What -- crunching numbers. And what is

:42:52.:42:55.

interesting, when they presented this to the hierarchy at the top,

:42:56.:42:59.

they have told me that sometimes, at best the reaction is luke warm, at

:43:00.:43:04.

worst, openly hostile. At door-to-door level, Labour's

:43:05.:43:08.

candidate knows general offers and national promises alone aren't going

:43:09.:43:13.

to cut it and here, issues need to be confronted head-on. I think one

:43:14.:43:16.

of the most important things we have done since 2010 is admit we made

:43:17.:43:20.

mistakes on immigration. We did make mistakes on immigration. Let me make

:43:21.:43:24.

it clear - there is nothing in Labour's values or policy that

:43:25.:43:28.

should be in favour of unlimited immigration. There is nothing

:43:29.:43:32.

progressive about that as a policy because the unfairness and of the

:43:33.:43:36.

impact are really adverse for communities that really struggle.

:43:37.:43:39.

The poor, the people who don't have very many skills and so forth. We

:43:40.:43:44.

always believe in managed migration and that needs to be very, very

:43:45.:43:47.

clearly said, we have learned the lessons of what we did when it went

:43:48.:43:52.

wrong and we are going to do it differently in the future. A were

:43:53.:43:54.

posed policy of banning agencies that hire foreign-only workers is an

:43:55.:43:59.

example of how the campaign in author rock has gone some way to

:44:00.:44:02.

forging Labour tactics on policy on how to hold on to and convince those

:44:03.:44:06.

who might be tempted by UKIP but those who pound the pavements can

:44:07.:44:10.

vansing here know this is a serious task and it is not going to get any

:44:11.:44:15.

easier in the run of had up to the election next year.

:44:16.:44:17.

And I'm joined now by the Labour MP for Rochdale, Simon Danczuk.

:44:18.:44:20.

How worried are you about UKIP? Well, they certainly pose a

:44:21.:44:26.

challenge to the Labour Party, as they do to the Conservative Party.

:44:27.:44:30.

We can't be complacent about them. They are opportunists, and they will

:44:31.:44:34.

try and score points and try and win votes. We have to work hard against

:44:35.:44:38.

them. Have you woken up too late to the threat, though? I think we need

:44:39.:44:42.

to be aware of the threat from UKIP. More than aware. Don't you have to

:44:43.:44:46.

be combatting it? Absolutely. I think from Ed Miliband today we will

:44:47.:44:50.

see a raft the policies in terms of the National Health Service,

:44:51.:44:53.

apprenticeships and house building, and these are the policies that will

:44:54.:44:57.

appeal to people but we still need to be stronger in terms of

:44:58.:45:00.

immigration and welfare reform. There is still much to talk about.

:45:01.:45:04.

But I think we'll get a strong flavour for it today from Ed. Let's

:45:05.:45:08.

talk about the offer being made, who does Ed Miliband have to appeal to,

:45:09.:45:12.

in your mind, for Labour to hold on to those seats in the north, where

:45:13.:45:21.

UKIP are posing a challenge? He has to appeal to everybody. With UKIP

:45:22.:45:26.

coming into the frame, which could see interesting results. There are

:45:27.:45:30.

disaffected voters who were anti-the last government. UKIP could take

:45:31.:45:34.

votes from the Tories and from labour, so we have to work hard for

:45:35.:45:37.

each vote and aid is committed to doing that. The blue-collar vote.

:45:38.:45:43.

What direct appeal must he make to those sorts of voters? He has to

:45:44.:45:49.

talk strongly about immigration and welfare reform. He also has to talk

:45:50.:45:53.

about what it means to be English and how important it is to be

:45:54.:45:59.

devolved in the regions. Let's come on to devolution, because that issue

:46:00.:46:02.

has exploded onto the scene since the result of the Scottish

:46:03.:46:06.

referendum. At a fringe meeting at this conference, you said Ed

:46:07.:46:09.

Miliband has to come out with a road map for English devolution in his

:46:10.:46:13.

speech, or he is in trouble. What should Labour's position be? We

:46:14.:46:18.

should talk about key principles. We should say it is not acceptable for

:46:19.:46:22.

Scottish MPs to vote on English-only laws. We should also say we are not

:46:23.:46:28.

happy with the Barnett formula and how that arranges money in favour of

:46:29.:46:34.

Scotland but against places like Rochdale. We also want some momentum

:46:35.:46:43.

in relation to devolution. We can get down to the detail to replace

:46:44.:46:50.

what we currently have. So you agree with English votes for English laws,

:46:51.:46:54.

which would of course deprive many Labour Scottish MPs in any future

:46:55.:46:57.

Parliament of voting on those issues. We were slow off the mark

:46:58.:47:01.

and we allowed Cameron to get his foot in the door and make his

:47:02.:47:06.

offer. But all he has offered is very limited. It is just about the

:47:07.:47:10.

Westminster bubble, moving the deck chairs around in Parliament. People

:47:11.:47:15.

want more than that. The English people have been talking about this

:47:16.:47:19.

for some time and they want government to be closer to the

:47:20.:47:25.

people. The principal has to be that Scottish MPs should not vote on

:47:26.:47:30.

English-only legislation. But the future could then be very difficult

:47:31.:47:35.

for Ed Miliband to be Prime Minister of the UK Government when he is

:47:36.:47:38.

reliant on those MPs in Scotland. You would not have a majority on

:47:39.:47:40.

things like the Budget. David Cameron set out his all in terms of

:47:41.:47:46.

devolution. He is playing party politics with it, because he knows

:47:47.:47:50.

it works to the Tories' advantage. I'm talking about what is best for

:47:51.:47:56.

England. We want to devolve powers right down to the people. I am sure

:47:57.:48:02.

Ed Miliband will say something about it today.

:48:03.:48:11.

Let's pick up on some of these issues now the Shadow Communities

:48:12.:48:17.

Secretary Hilary Benn. Lebron P Simon Danczuk was saying it is not

:48:18.:48:22.

acceptable for Scottish MPs to vote on English-only laws. There is an

:48:23.:48:28.

issue here, we have accepted that. The Prime Minister has not made a

:48:29.:48:32.

specific proposal. What does his phrase, English votes for English

:48:33.:48:37.

laws mean? It is not the only anomaly in Westminster. For example,

:48:38.:48:43.

as a Leeds MP, I cannot vote on transport issues to do with London

:48:44.:48:46.

because it has been devolved to the mayor. London MPs can vote on

:48:47.:48:50.

transport issues in Leeds. So there are a number of is to look at. The

:48:51.:48:54.

Prime Minister was wrong to try and link that honouring the vow to the

:48:55.:48:58.

people of Scotland that was made in the run-up to the referendum. He has

:48:59.:49:05.

now had to row back from that. If you are going to change our

:49:06.:49:08.

Constitution, to answer a question that has been around for 120 years,

:49:09.:49:12.

you have to take people with you. But it is not complicated. All you

:49:13.:49:17.

would need is a standing order to say that if the legislation does not

:49:18.:49:21.

apply to Scotland, that Scottish MPs to vote on it. But would that be on

:49:22.:49:26.

second reading? It would be throughout. Surely that would only

:49:27.:49:38.

be democratic? What do you then do, as Simon acknowledged in that

:49:39.:49:42.

interview when the question was put to him, the Prime Minister has a

:49:43.:49:45.

majority in the United Kingdom but did not have a majority in England?

:49:46.:49:49.

You cannot have two centres of power in a single Parliament. Well, it

:49:50.:49:53.

would mean that the Prime Minister of the day did not have a majority

:49:54.:49:58.

to enforce all of his or her English agenda and would have to do what

:49:59.:50:01.

they do in Europe every day, which is come to some agreement to put

:50:02.:50:05.

together a coalition of support. That is a recipe for deadlock. If

:50:06.:50:12.

the Prime Minister really thought this was the way forward, he could

:50:13.:50:15.

argue for an English Parliament. I don't support that, and he says he

:50:16.:50:23.

does not support that. But if you have not got a majority in England,

:50:24.:50:27.

save for your education reforms, and you could only put in these

:50:28.:50:32.

education reforms by depending on Scottish MPs, where is the fairness

:50:33.:50:37.

of the democracy in that? But how can you explain to the British

:50:38.:50:41.

people in those circumstances? In fairness, there have only been two

:50:42.:50:45.

occasions and is 1919 when there has not been a majority in both the

:50:46.:50:52.

United Kingdom and England. That was between 1916 four and 1966 and

:50:53.:50:59.

during the elections in 1970. The Prime Minister would have to say,

:51:00.:51:02.

sorry, I cannot help you because that is being dealt with by another

:51:03.:51:07.

centre of power. You cannot run a single Parliament on that basis. But

:51:08.:51:11.

surely the principle is right that if you do not win a majority of MPs

:51:12.:51:15.

in England, to implement the English part of your manifesto, you should

:51:16.:51:21.

not be allowed to implement it? What about the West Ealing question? It

:51:22.:51:36.

does matter. You have to have an answer to the West Ealing question.

:51:37.:51:45.

It is a principle, because you have got two examples of voting on things

:51:46.:51:49.

that are going to affect their constituents. Inviting William Hague

:51:50.:51:59.

to Chequers and saying, let's sort it out now, is not the way to deal

:52:00.:52:02.

with changes to the British constitution. But the poll suggests

:52:03.:52:11.

that more people want the English votes for English laws solution than

:52:12.:52:15.

they want more layers of government. The last time you tried it, you lost

:52:16.:52:22.

out by 78% of the people against you. But we are not proposing new

:52:23.:52:26.

layers of government. We are proposing to devolve to the existing

:52:27.:52:35.

authorities. Manchester has commanding authority, and Leeds has

:52:36.:52:42.

got one as well. These are local elected representatives think

:52:43.:52:45.

central government, give us the tools, and we will do the job. But

:52:46.:52:50.

that is decentralisation rather than devolution. How does it benefit you

:52:51.:52:54.

if you live in Lincolnshire or a area not covered by that? I want

:52:55.:53:01.

those areas to be covered. The government has failed to say to

:53:02.:53:04.

rural England, you get organised and we will devolve power to you. This

:53:05.:53:10.

is an offer for all parts of England. You are on the wrong side

:53:11.:53:15.

of public opinion on this. There was overwhelming support for English

:53:16.:53:19.

votes for English laws. Indeed, most Scots think it is only fair that

:53:20.:53:22.

Scottish MPs should not vote in English-only matters. I acknowledge

:53:23.:53:28.

that there is an issue here that we need to look at, but you have to

:53:29.:53:32.

have a proper process for doing it. The Prime Minister has not brought

:53:33.:53:35.

forward a specific proposal. There are other anomalies within the

:53:36.:53:39.

system. We need a national debate and we need to reach an agreement.

:53:40.:53:46.

But at the same time, Ed's speech will be about what will really make

:53:47.:53:48.

a difference to the lives of my constituents. Will they have higher

:53:49.:53:53.

pay if they are on the minimum wage? Will they have an energy price

:53:54.:53:56.

freeze? Are we going to build more homes? Are we going to provide

:53:57.:54:00.

childcare? Those are the things that matter.

:54:01.:54:04.

Now, early this morning, the Shadow Transport Secretary Mary Creagh

:54:05.:54:07.

outlined Labour's plans on transport. She lauded Manchester's

:54:08.:54:11.

proud rail history. We are sitting in what used to be a railway

:54:12.:54:16.

station, reminding constituents of that. Here is what she had to say.

:54:17.:54:21.

Today, I will set out how Ed Miliband's Labour government will

:54:22.:54:25.

deliver the big change we need in transport. It changed to deliver our

:54:26.:54:28.

national infrastructure. Big change to tackle the cost of transport and

:54:29.:54:34.

to give London-style transport powers to other areas. Big change to

:54:35.:54:39.

make our roads safer. A Labour government will deliver the biggest

:54:40.:54:43.

reform of the railways since privatisation to deliver a better

:54:44.:54:48.

deal for taxpayers and passengers. We will bring Network Rail under new

:54:49.:54:52.

passenger rail body together to coordinate track and train

:54:53.:54:55.

operations and to look after passengers. We will tackle the

:54:56.:54:59.

monopoly market for rail rolling stock. A Labour government will cap

:55:00.:55:05.

fares, legislate to allow a public sector operators to be able to take

:55:06.:55:12.

on train operators and we will devolve decisions on rail services

:55:13.:55:16.

much closer to the communities they serve. We will put the passenger

:55:17.:55:22.

back at the heart of the railway, not the profit motive. Transport

:55:23.:55:26.

delivers not just economic prosperity, but also social justice.

:55:27.:55:31.

Opposition has sharpened, not hold our ambition. Only a Labour

:55:32.:55:34.

government will make the big change we need to deliver the

:55:35.:55:38.

infrastructure to support British jobs and growth. Only a Labour

:55:39.:55:41.

government will make the big change to give cities the powers to bring

:55:42.:55:44.

back the buses and create a railway that puts passengers before of it.

:55:45.:55:49.

Only a Labour government will make the big change to tackle the cost of

:55:50.:55:53.

living crisis, reduce road congestion and give everyone the

:55:54.:55:56.

freedom to travel safely. Let's get on with it.

:55:57.:56:01.

That was Mary Creagh. Let's go back to JoCo.

:56:02.:56:07.

Now we come to the serious part of the show. We are joined by Matt

:56:08.:56:10.

Ford, a former Labour Party adviser and now comedian. I don't know what

:56:11.:56:15.

made you turn to comedy after being Labour Party adviser. Does it feel

:56:16.:56:20.

here that this is the eve of a general election? I have to become

:56:21.:56:24.

for what I say. But of course it doesn't. Why not? There is not much

:56:25.:56:29.

of an atmosphere and we all know why that is, because Tony Blair is not

:56:30.:56:34.

here. Are you missing him? I miss the protesters. Isn't this buddy as

:56:35.:56:40.

she goes? Know, get some protesters out, it makes people excited. In

:56:41.:56:47.

terms of Ed Miliband, what has he got to do? What tone has he got to

:56:48.:56:53.

strike in the hall? He has to set out some sort of vision. The problem

:56:54.:56:58.

is that I struggled to be inspired by him, and I feel bad for saying

:56:59.:57:03.

that. I just hope his delivery improves. What sort of delivery

:57:04.:57:14.

should it be? The way he talks, he is quite camp. Come on a

:57:15.:57:22.

conference. I want him to do more of that. It makes him funny and

:57:23.:57:25.

likeable. How does it compare to Tony Blair's delivery? Tony Blair

:57:26.:57:31.

was bring much about control and emotion, big stuff. Sounding like it

:57:32.:57:37.

was from the heart. Are you sure you should still be at the Labour Party

:57:38.:57:42.

conference? My colleagues have said I am not welcome. What about John

:57:43.:57:49.

Prescott? I will be interviewing him. I will do a bit of stand-up

:57:50.:57:52.

first and then interview Lescott about what he made of today's speech

:57:53.:58:00.

and the Blair years. If you give them enough time, you get good

:58:01.:58:04.

answers out of them. Has he become the darling of the Labour Party

:58:05.:58:06.

conference? Yes, because he was always outrageous anyway, but now he

:58:07.:58:12.

is off the leash, he can say what he likes. One wore impression of Ed

:58:13.:58:20.

Miliband? I really want to sort at Britain's problems, but look, it is

:58:21.:58:23.

a Syria is issue. And back to Andrew. It is always great to be on

:58:24.:58:28.

the show and it is great to see you again. I will see you next year,

:58:29.:58:32.

when I am still leader of the opposition.

:58:33.:58:36.

Thank you, Ed Miliband(!). We will be back in an hour, with full

:58:37.:58:41.

coverage of the real Ed Miliband's conference speech through till 345

:58:42.:58:46.

p.m. . That is on BBC Two. The one O'Clock News is starting on BBC One.

:58:47.:58:51.

Come back here at two o'clock for further conference coverage.

:58:52.:58:51.

Bye-bye.

:58:52.:59:04.

Andrew Neil is in Manchester with the latest news and analysis from the Labour party conference, including interviews with Caroline Flint and Hilary Benn ahead of the leader's speech.


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