24/09/2014 Daily Politics


24/09/2014

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It's the final day of the Labour Party Conference here in

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Manchester, where people are mulling over the parts of Ed Miliband's

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speech he DIDN'T deliver, and contemplating the likelihood that

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Afternoon, folks, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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More than 60 minutes, without a script, but he forgot to

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Or immigration. Or welfare.

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Yes, Ed Miliband's on the ropes over what he didn't say

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I'm here at Westminster, where we expect Parliament to be

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MPs will discuss whether or not British forces should take part

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in American-led military action against Islamic State extremists.

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David Cameron's expected to receive a formal request for help from the

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And we ask all the difficult questions.

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Is the Labour Conference all about socialism or socialising?

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Do you get wined and dined? I haven't so far, but if you are

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offering! All that in the next 60 minutes

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of the very finest public service First this morning, let's get

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the mood here in Manchester. There's been a bit of an exodus from

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the conference with Ed Miliband's speech out of the way, but we've got

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two journalists who are staying to the bitter end - Laura Pitel of the

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Times and James Lyons of the Mirror. Welcome to you both. Can you

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remember a fallout from a leader's speech like the one we have had this

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morning? I thought you were going to ask me if I could member anything!

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Everyone is a bit hung over. Speak for yourself! Miliband raised

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expectations in recent years, people were not sure what he would deliver

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and then he pull something out of a hat, but this time we were

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disappointed, no one is going to remember anything at all. It is

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always a high wire act to remember an 80 minute speech. He got away

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with it twice, indeed previously he set the political weather in time to

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come. You often fall of a high wire. I was there for Iain Duncan Smith's

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quiet man speech. This was not that. It was worse. It was not. That is a

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pretty low bar. That may be a fair point, but look, there is no doubt

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it will cause him problems that he has left it out, and I don't

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understand why he felt the need to do a speech for memory again, we

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know he can do it very powerfully. -- from memory. Perhaps this was

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time for him to stand up, Prime Minister in waiting, and do it that

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way. But he missed out the issues that matter. That's the problem.

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It's not that he missed out issues that come 10th or 11th or 12th in

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the polls, he missed out the issues that come first, second and third.

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He missed issues where he is under fire, so he has left an open goal

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for himself to be attacked. It feels like a major blunder. But I think

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you will be grateful this morning that there is an international

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crisis unfolding in Iraq and Syria because it has kept him off the

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front page and the news agendas. He will just be glad they can duck and

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hope that no one has noticed. Is that a consolation prize that you

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end up getting kept off the front page? He has had good headlines

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around health ahead of the speech. Keen to talk about the issues people

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care about. Health at the moment is third, sometimes second in the

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opinion polls. When people asked what is important to them. This

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conference was about getting labour in the top two issues as we go into

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the election, they see that as their trump card. Unfortunate that

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something leaked out a bit early. I asked a Labour insider before the

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speech, are we getting a rabbit? Ray said that there's been tucked and it

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is poking out of the hat a bit. A bit unfortunate but they have got

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the key message out there on the key message out there on

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health. 20,000 extra nurses, which Labour candidates can go and sell on

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the doorstep. These kind of promises from politicians... ? You have to

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make the case. The ?2.5 billion he is raising he is already spending on

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additional resources, whereas the Labour attack on the health service

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now is that there is a black hole in financing. Doesn't that ?2.5 billion

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have to fill the black hole before you can hire more nurses? Certainly

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some of it will have to, and we will be talking about more reform and the

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way the health service works to free up money, the sort of thing that

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Andy Burnham is talking about today. He has just had a standing

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ovation in the hall. He has. A very strong speech. Arguably the speech

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of the conference this morning from Harry Leslie Smith, a 91-year-old

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activist, who had them weeping in the aisles. The issue is not Labour,

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they are ahead in the polls and may have been ahead in the polls for a

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long time, it may have narrowed a bit but they are still ahead. The

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issue has been Mr Miliband, his ratings are way behind his parties,

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just as Mr Cameron's ratings are way ahead of his party. It feels like a

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missed opportunity. We heard from Labour, it was unfortunate that it

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came after Scotland when everyone is tired and there are other issues at

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the top of the news, but if you have problems with your leadership and

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you are accused of not being prime ministerial enough, a big speech is

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the opportunity to set against that. I don't know what he thinks on big

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issues like foreign policy, poor example. He could have set out his

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stall one way on the other -- or the other, but we are none the wiser.

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So, it's the afternoon after the afternoon before.

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Ed Miliband's speech, the bits in it, and bits not in it,

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have become the defining story of this conference.

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Let's hear what the Labour leader had to say to

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Louise Minchin on Breakfast this morning about failing to mention

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Did you forget that paragraph? The way I prepare these speeches is I

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write a speech and I don't exactly try and memorise it, I use it as a

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basis for what I might say. Some of it got left out. Sometimes I add

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bits. But I was very clear about our plans for the NHS that we wouldn't

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be borrowing a penny more to pay for it. I was clear about that

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innovation to the deficit. The deficit paragraph is printed, did

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you forget that paragraph? Yeah, I didn't do one part of the speech and

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I added other bits. You know, there is a choice, you could stand up and

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read out a preprepared speech... I find that actually doing it a

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different way, to speak from the top of your head, speak directly to

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people, is a better way for me to do these speeches. It is one of the

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perils of doing it. How high on your list of priorities is the deficit if

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you forgot it? Incredibly high. Ed Balls set out a clear plan for how

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we are going to get the deficit down and how we are going to get the

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national debt falling, how we are going to have the current budget

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surplus and no proposals in our manifesto for additional borrowing.

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That is why I said in relation to our plans to transform the NHS that

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we would raise the money from the wealthiest in our society, clamping

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down on tax avoidance get the change we need not from borrowing. You have

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called the next eight months a job interview for Prime Minister. Would

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you expect a future Prime Minister to remember what you have just

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called really important, the deficit? Yes, and I did, I talked

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about how we would not borrow more for the NHS. But look, people have

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to make their own judgements about this. I chose to give my speech as I

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have done for the last three years in this particular way. You can have

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politicians just reading out a speech... I think we have to change

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the way politics works, I think people want people to just come

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along and tell them what they think and that is what I did yesterday. If

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you did it again, would you mention the deficit? I am sure I would do it

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differently, even if I did it again today. I added bits that were not in

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the original text. That is the way I tend to do these speeches.

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And I'm joined now by the Shadow Leader of the House

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Welcome to the Daily Politics. The top two issues concerning the

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British people in the polls normally? The polls I have seen show

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that immigration and the economy are at the top, and the NHS rising

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extremely quickly. You are quite right, the NHS has been rising in

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third, but the polls ICS macroeconomy and immigration. -- IC

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is the economy. Why did he fail to mention them? He delivered the

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speech that he did, 67 minutes without notes. He left out three

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lines about the deficit, but you know... He left out more than that.

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He left out the issues that matter to the British people. Yvette Cooper

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is making a detailed speech about immigration and the Home Office

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amongst other things, and the issues there. But he is the man who would

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be Prime Minister. Ed Balls made a half-hour speech the day before,

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setting out the fact that Labour is absolutely determined to balance the

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books over the lifetime of the parliament, and get the deficit

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falling. The fact that Ed didn't mention the deficit in his speech

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yesterday does not change our determination to deliver, and we

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will do a lot better than a government that actually said it

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would balance the books by next year and is going to have a ?75 billion

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hole in the plans. All the more reason that if you win, you will

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inherit that. Absolutely, and Ed Balls was how league perfectly clear

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about that. We will come onto that. The people have a right to know what

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Mr Miliband would have said. We have put it up on the autocue. You want

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me to read it? In Ed's voice? No, your voice will be fine, it's the

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words that matter. "Friends, there won't be money to

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spend after the next election. Britain will be spending ?75 billion

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on the interest on our debt alone. That's more than

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the entire budget for our schools. So, as Ed Balls announced yesterday,

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Labour's plan is based Eliminating the deficit as soon

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as possible in the next parliament. borrowing. We will get the deficit

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down - immigration benefits our country but those who come here have

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a responsibility to learn English and earn their way, and employers

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have a responsibility not to exploit You have stopped reading now. I can

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stop reading now! Maybe I am doing a job interview for your job, Andrew!

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I thought you did that very well! These words are so important. It

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still baffles people that he couldn't remember them. He said on

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breakfast television he was the top of his head. He wasn't, he had

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memorised this speech. This is the style Ed likes to perform his

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speeches in. It is the way he has always done it. He has missed out

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hits before, I think in one of his speeches he missed out an entire bit

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on the environment, which is a particular passion for him. But that

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is not the first or second issue in the country. Andrew, because that

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happen, it does not mean that Labour's policy, intent or intention

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to deal with this has changed. On the budget deficit, is it your

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intention to balance the current spending budget or the whole of the

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budget in the next Parliament? What Ed has said is that we will balance

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current spending and we will get the deficit falling over the lifetime of

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the Parliament. But you could still run a deficit on investing, spending

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to invest, is that right? We have a government now that is saying it is

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going to invest huge amounts of money... I am not asking about the

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current government, I am asking about your government. You have to

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ask Ed Balls, since I am the shadow leader of the house. The deficit is

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a key issue. Are you going to balance the whole of the budget by

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the end of the next Parliament or just the current spending bit of the

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budget? Hi we have said we will balance current spending and get the

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deficit falling -- we have said we will Alan Scarman spending and get

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the deficit falling by the end of the Parliament. If the government

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will agree, we will check all the party manifestoes in the run-up to

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the election to see if they are credible. Why don't the government

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let the OBR do that? Unless your current spending surplus is bigger

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than your capital spending deficit, you can't draw down the deficit, can

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you? That's just plain arithmetic. Of course, but one of the things

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about what we have said is that we will get the overall deficit falling

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by the end of the Parliament and there will be tough fiscal rules. So

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the overall deficit will fall? That is why Ed Balls set out in some

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details on difficult choices in his speech on spending. That is why we

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have a 0-based review. They don't mean anything. They do, actually...

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Hang on, you might be cynical... Listen, you might be cynical about

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0-based reviews, but the whole of Whitehall and how you run government

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is about making choices. Our choices will be fairer. We will not give tax

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cuts to millionaires and the bedroom tax to other people. There will be

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fairer choices under a Labour government. You began this interview

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by saying that your policy was to balance current spending. You have

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now just told me that your policy is to cut the overall deficit. Which is

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it? The deficit is going to be falling

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by the end of the next Parliament, that is what Ed balls has pledged,

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that is what Labour government will do, but we will do it fairer, we

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will ensure that people have much more of a stake in society, we will

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increase low wages, we will give young people more opportunities, we

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will make sure that we are leading in the green industries for the

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future, we will build 200,000 houses every year. It is going to be... I'm

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sure it is going to be utopia... A utopia after ten years, not in the

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first five. When you say you will cut the debt, will you actually

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reduce the debt amount or will it simply be falling as a percentage of

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GDP? Ed has said that it will befall them by the end of the Parliament,

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he will set out, in his first budget, Leo rolls, clear fiscal

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targets, that is a matter for the Chancellor to do. -- clear rules. I

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may love for it to be a matter to me, it is not a matter for the

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shadow leader of the house. White simple question, when you say you

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will cut the national debt, will it fall in absolute terms? -- simple

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question: Will it be falling as a percentage of GDP? Which means it

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could still be writing in real terms. Check out the manifesto when

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we write it and produce it. Do you know yet? Do you know? Nip into

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Parliament when Chancellor Ed Balls is making his first budget speech,

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and then all will be revealed. Seven months before the election, and you

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cannot tell us what the policies are on the national debt. I have just

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told you what the policies are, what the targets are. Real terms or

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percentage of GDP? Which one? Let me ask you again? We will get current

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spending balanced, and we will get the deficit falling by the end of

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this parliament. I did not ask you that. That is what Ed Balls has

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said. Thank you very much. Parliament is gearing up for a

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recall. I'm joined by a couple of MPs who will be in Parliament for

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the debate, Adam Holloway, he was in the armed forces himself, he has

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recently returned from Iraq. And a member of the foreign affairs select

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committee is joining me, he was born in Iraq. I'm assuming that if the

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Iraqi Prime Minister does request written... -- Britain... What are

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you going to do, Adam Holloway, you have said to me that without a

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political settlement being made clear, you would not support air

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strikes, even against Isis. I'm going to be declared -- I'm going to

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be clear to David Cameron, but this is a problem for the people in these

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countries and in the region. It is clearly a big problem for us but we

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have seen in the disasters of Iraq and Afghanistan that it is not

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work, the headlines, US air strikes. We should be more measured, we

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should make it absolutely sure that the countries in the region, as the

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Kurds have, realise it is their problem, we should enable them. We

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should not be leading them, this is a path to disaster. You are yet to

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be convinced. Absolutely. Is now the time? If we get the request from the

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Iraqi Prime Minister that Britain should join America and other Arab

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nations. It is worth remembering, we laid on the humanitarian effort, we

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have led on the political settlement. Diplomacy taking place

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in Baghdad, with Ambassador Fred Baker and before that Simon Collis.

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We have upgraded the mission in Kurdistan. Now is the time, with the

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Arab countries: Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE, Qatar, all of them

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joining in the military effort. Adding quite rightly says, the

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people on the ground, the host country, the Muslim Sunni Arab

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tribes. The Iraqi army, they have all got to take the lead in this

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operation. With the air support. They are not taking the lead,

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America is taking the lead, "US-led strikes", that is the headlines. We

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will be joining America, is that enough for you to say yes on Friday?

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Yes, speak with the people of Mosul, any of those places... Today, on the

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Turkish side, the Kurdish worth facing another massive humanitarian

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problem. Because they are coming over the border. -- Kurdish worth

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facing another massive humanitarian problem. The people they are

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fighting, Iraqi army, Kurdish army, they are taking the fight to Isil,

:20:35.:20:38.

not us. What we are doing is supplying air support, if we are

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asked to. Is it dangerous to delay any further? The former defence

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minister, Gerrit out, has said that it is an embarrassment that Britain

:20:49.:20:53.

is not already standing alongside the US in air strikes, if we wait

:20:54.:20:56.

for the political settlement to be clarified in the way we want it to

:20:57.:21:00.

be. I'm not talking about a political settlement but politics

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should come first. We have had emergency air strikes to prevent

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Kurdistan from being overrun, that had to happen, they prevented mass

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convoy is getting into the city. This is a bombing campaign, we have

:21:12.:21:16.

got to organised. All of those Sunni Muslims that are opposed to the

:21:17.:21:19.

government in Baghdad, they have got to get rid of Isis themselves. -- we

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have got to organise. That will take a long time, some commentators say

:21:26.:21:29.

it is too late, they say that it is too late to convince them, the Sunni

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tribes have turned a blind eye to Isis because in their mind, they are

:21:33.:21:36.

better than the Shia government in Baghdad. They did that in 2007, they

:21:37.:21:42.

purged, but now they have decided to come back in. Other tribes are

:21:43.:21:48.

joining in. It is going to take a long time. Barack Obama said it will

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take a long time, so did David Cameron, but the important thing, as

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Adam Rose verse two, the Sunni tribes, if they are going to join

:21:56.:21:59.

in, if they are going to do the fighting, they have got to have a

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political skin in the game. They have got to believe that they have

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got to have at the end of it a sunny National Guard. The Sunni community,

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playing host in Syria and Iraq, they have got to feel, after this

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period, when they purge Isil, which will happen, that they have a

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political settlement where they get to choose who leads them locally and

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who governs them and taxes them. -- National Guard. Would you support

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targets in Syria? -- Sony -- Sunni National Guard. Obviously, the

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headline political objective is very clear here, but the operation level,

:22:42.:22:46.

the tactical level, we have not yet worked it out, if you are a Muslim

:22:47.:22:52.

sitting in Iraq or Syria, what this is, it is America coming back in and

:22:53.:22:55.

bombing. This is not the right emphasis, it is the wrong way to do

:22:56.:23:01.

it. Do you agree with that? Do you support the idea of air strikes in

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Syria, because otherwise it is not a coordinated strategy. We have got to

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keep options open. Already we have seen air strikes. It is already

:23:11.:23:15.

happening with the US and the Middle East and forces. UK air strikes in

:23:16.:23:20.

Syria? Keep the options open, speak with the free Syrian army, taking

:23:21.:23:23.

the fight to Bashar al-Assad and Isil, they need the support to be

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able to do what they do, which is produced a unified government which

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looks after all of the minority-owned stop my message for

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the people around Bashar al-Assad, think about getting rid of him,

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think about having somebody else replace him. That is the only way

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that we will get to a resolution in Syria. Thank you very much. On

:23:43.:23:46.

Friday we will be hearing a lot more from these two MPs and others, when

:23:47.:23:50.

Parliament is recalled, which we presume is what is going to happen.

:23:51.:23:52.

That announcement may this afternoon.

:23:53.:24:01.

Lots of speeches, stale sandwiches and warm white wine

:24:02.:24:03.

but what's the Labour Party Conference really about?

:24:04.:24:05.

Eleanor Garnier's been looking at what gets done here.

:24:06.:24:07.

There is no mud but there is plenty of queues, it is a little bit like

:24:08.:24:13.

Glastonbury, for political nerds. You can even get your groove on.

:24:14.:24:20.

There is Harriet Harman, at a fringe event in 2013. You can even pick up

:24:21.:24:25.

a souvenir! The Labour Party conference used to be a real

:24:26.:24:29.

festival of the mock receive. Observers say that these days,

:24:30.:24:34.

things are a little different. The Labour Party conference has changed

:24:35.:24:37.

beyond recognition. Over the last 30 years. It used to be a great, mighty

:24:38.:24:44.

chamber, which the leadership had to obey. There used to be blazing rows

:24:45.:24:49.

in front of the television cameras. The stakes were very high. Policies

:24:50.:24:53.

were decided. There are, in front of our eyes. Now, the control is with

:24:54.:24:59.

the leadership, and the national executive committee. Previously a

:25:00.:25:03.

mighty body. They tend to bend to the rules of the leader, and anyway,

:25:04.:25:09.

it has less power. APPLAUSE Tony Blair brought in big changes to

:25:10.:25:14.

the Labour Party conference in 1997. That is when the national

:25:15.:25:18.

policy forum was introduced, to filter ideas and come up with policy

:25:19.:25:22.

pledges. Until then, that had all been the role of the party governing

:25:23.:25:25.

body, the national executive committee. Delegates at conference

:25:26.:25:30.

today still raise and debate urgent issues and vote on them, but the

:25:31.:25:35.

agenda is largely agreed before. Today, any sound of trouble is

:25:36.:25:39.

quickly dealt with, remember Walter, the lifelong Labour Party member,

:25:40.:25:46.

manhandled out of the conference in 2005, for heckling Jack Straw over

:25:47.:25:49.

the Iraq war. Labour later apologised. Then back to the 1980s,

:25:50.:25:54.

under Neil Kinnock. The conference could get pretty boisterous.

:25:55.:25:59.

Ken Livingstone, former Londoner, served on the national executive

:26:00.:26:05.

committee in the 1980s and 1990s, he is now back on it again. Do you

:26:06.:26:10.

still look forward to going to conference? It is a series of

:26:11.:26:15.

stage-managed events, platforms for leading party members to put forward

:26:16.:26:21.

their views and so on... Years ago, I would look forward to it all year,

:26:22.:26:25.

this was where party policy would be decided and the direction of the

:26:26.:26:31.

movement. But that has gone. Is there any point to conference? It is

:26:32.:26:35.

better than nothing, you can get hold of Ed Balls saying we should be

:26:36.:26:39.

building more council houses, you will argue about the number, things

:26:40.:26:43.

like that. It is the 1 chance where you can get to the party

:26:44.:26:48.

leadership. Normally you have got to go through security in the House of

:26:49.:26:52.

Commons! Nightmare. They may be disillusioned but they keep going, a

:26:53.:26:57.

bit like the die-hards of music festivals, basically cannot stay

:26:58.:27:03.

away. -- they simply cannot stay away.

:27:04.:27:13.

Is it worth going to conference anymore? Apart from whether or not

:27:14.:27:22.

they focus on anything that people care about, it is still worth

:27:23.:27:26.

coming, it is a great opportunity for the Labour Party and all parties

:27:27.:27:29.

to set out what they want to achieve, an opportunity for a coming

:27:30.:27:33.

together of a tribe, as it were. There was a lot of problems with

:27:34.:27:37.

conferences and all political parties, talking about re-engaging

:27:38.:27:41.

with people, they need to start thinking about all of these events

:27:42.:27:45.

here, as open and inclusive... Tribal rally, rather than a

:27:46.:27:50.

conference which used to take decisions, which would affect party

:27:51.:27:54.

policy? It is more like a US style political rally, convention, what it

:27:55.:28:08.

was supposed to be is a Parliament, the membership is much lower, and

:28:09.:28:17.

today, more of a case of a sign of the lobbyist side. A lot of

:28:18.:28:20.

activists are probably more comfortable with that. What was

:28:21.:28:23.

happened instead, the debate has shifted from the hall, and there is

:28:24.:28:27.

a lack of democracy in the Labour Party. There is a thriving scene,

:28:28.:28:36.

and on the key issues, housing, nuclear weapons, foreign policy,

:28:37.:28:42.

education. All of them debated, but the problem I face with it, a lot of

:28:43.:28:48.

people find this, a lot of people that the Labour Party was set up to

:28:49.:28:53.

fight for our not able to come here. Too expensive? The only people...

:28:54.:28:58.

Apart from the catering staff and the cleaners... If I was going to

:28:59.:29:04.

change conference, I would make it more democratic and more

:29:05.:29:06.

representative of the people that Labour says they fight for. It is

:29:07.:29:11.

fine to have a thriving fringe, but debate and good speeches, a lot more

:29:12.:29:14.

interesting than what is happening in the hall, but they do not

:29:15.:29:19.

determine policy, they are not the collective view of the Labour Party.

:29:20.:29:22.

That is what the conference used to be. A lot more complicated now, with

:29:23.:29:29.

the national policy forum. We can do chapter and verse with the national

:29:30.:29:31.

policy forum but everybody would turn off. We would like to keep the

:29:32.:29:37.

audience, please do not go down that road! There is an element of

:29:38.:29:42.

necessity to it, in the hall, having arguments, it would be fascinating

:29:43.:29:46.

to watch, but it would make the Labour government less likely. We

:29:47.:29:50.

need to find a way to increase levels of democratic representation,

:29:51.:29:54.

without turning into a messy bun fight. There was a time when votes

:29:55.:29:58.

mattered, and notions mattered, more so than the Tories. This was a

:29:59.:30:03.

decision taking assembly of the Labour Party rank and file. New

:30:04.:30:08.

Labour, the problem originally, it distrusted activists, had everything

:30:09.:30:13.

it could to keep them to one side, turning them into an army of

:30:14.:30:17.

leaflets deliverers. I think that fear was misplaced. Looking at some

:30:18.:30:24.

of the very popular decisions, scrapping the 10p tax, invading

:30:25.:30:31.

Iraq, public ownership of the railways... If they had listened to

:30:32.:30:35.

activists more, a lot of those decisions would have been very

:30:36.:30:36.

different. A lot of us have the suspicion that

:30:37.:30:49.

the real reason these conferences still go on, and go on for such a

:30:50.:30:54.

long time, four does, even though they don't ever take any decisions,

:30:55.:31:00.

is everything we have around here. -- four days. It is true of the

:31:01.:31:05.

Tories as well. The parties make a tonne of money out of people who

:31:06.:31:08.

have come to lobby, to exhibit, to get their case across. It has become

:31:09.:31:13.

a commercial exercise for Labour and the Conservatives rather than a

:31:14.:31:17.

political gathering. 1 of the most interesting thing is arriving on

:31:18.:31:22.

Saturday was that people were remarking how big the corporate

:31:23.:31:27.

section is. It is seen as a sign of how big it is and how likely Labour

:31:28.:31:33.

are to win the next election. 2011, they would have made money but not

:31:34.:31:37.

to the same extent as this time. You are completely right, it is a huge

:31:38.:31:42.

part. We need more transparency, not just here at the Labour Party but

:31:43.:31:47.

all parties. The lobbying was a missed opportunity, but in terms of

:31:48.:31:51.

the meetings that take place between lobbyists and perhaps a government

:31:52.:31:55.

in waiting, we need more scrutiny of that. The less of that kind of

:31:56.:32:04.

secret machinations, the better. We will all be back. Thank you very

:32:05.:32:05.

much. And now Adam's final moodbox

:32:06.:32:09.

from the Labour Conference. He tells me it's a classic

:32:10.:32:11.

of its genre. I think we'll be the judge of that.

:32:12.:32:13.

Here he is, with his balls. What motivates people to spend four

:32:14.:32:23.

days at the Labour Party conference? Is it the socialism or the

:32:24.:32:28.

socialising? Socialism, to be inspired about how we are going to

:32:29.:32:32.

have a Labour government. You have not been to any drinks receptions,

:32:33.:32:37.

parties? I haven't been to any parties, I have had a drink. Why do

:32:38.:32:42.

you come to the Labour Party conference? I want socialism back in

:32:43.:32:49.

the Labour Party, not a third way, not new Labour. You think it is

:32:50.:32:57.

quite a daft question? Yeah. White? Not just have a good time?

:32:58.:33:03.

Definitely not. Do you think anyone is here just to have a good time?

:33:04.:33:08.

Maybe the beautiful people, but I am a local councillor and it is about

:33:09.:33:18.

as against them. Socialising. Someone who is honest at last! What

:33:19.:33:22.

is the best party you have been to? Lean macro I think it has got to be

:33:23.:33:32.

the Co-op. What do we have on offer? Pies, quiches, pastrami. I love a

:33:33.:33:36.

pork pie. You go to a lot of parties. How the

:33:37.:33:48.

Labour Party 's rank? Compared to Annabel's? Much better. Why do you

:33:49.:33:56.

come to conference, socialism or socialising? If you are true

:33:57.:34:01.

revolutionary like Fidel Castro, shade of are, Hugo Chavez, you don't

:34:02.:34:03.

have time to socialise because people are more important. -- Che

:34:04.:34:10.

Guevara. You don't see Hugo Chavez on the dance floor much. Gangland

:34:11.:34:20.

style? We did it yesterday. I had Ed Balls on the right and Yvette

:34:21.:34:23.

Cooper... Do you want to recreate it now? Did Tony Blair like the

:34:24.:34:32.

socialising bit? Tony Blair only ever talked about socialising by

:34:33.:34:37.

saying he was in favour of social ism. Was he a party animal? He is a

:34:38.:34:45.

man who knows how to have fun. Are you going to a party now, dressed

:34:46.:34:50.

like that? We always dress like this. I focused on socialism to

:34:51.:35:00.

socialise! Do you and Harriet go to parties? Once in a blue moon. Do you

:35:01.:35:08.

get wind and dined? Not so far but if you are offering! I knock off in

:35:09.:35:13.

about ten minutes. What is the best party tonight? The Daily Mirror are

:35:14.:35:20.

having a party in Coronation Street. Have you got an invite? It is a bit

:35:21.:35:24.

late, I'm not sure I am going to make it. When is your bedtime?

:35:25.:35:32.

9:30pm every night. It seems like most people are here for the serious

:35:33.:35:37.

stuff. Anyway I am off to a champagne reception.

:35:38.:35:42.

He is always at a champagne reception. We had hoped to talk to

:35:43.:35:49.

Yvette Cooper today, Labour Shadow Cabinet member, but her speech is

:35:50.:35:52.

running late so it looks like we are not going to get her. However, we

:35:53.:35:56.

are joined by two people who could be the future of the Labour Party.

:35:57.:36:01.

Jessica Asato is standing in Norwich North.

:36:02.:36:04.

And Sarah Sackman is standing in Finchley and Golders Green.

:36:05.:36:09.

Welcome to both of you. Has this conference but a string -- placed to

:36:10.:36:18.

bring in your step? Absolutely, it has been fantastic. We have

:36:19.:36:23.

something to take to the electorate. I have people in my constituency,

:36:24.:36:27.

volunteers, phoning voters to deliver the fantastic message we

:36:28.:36:32.

heard yesterday on the NHS, house-building... Including the bits

:36:33.:36:37.

he missed out? Well, what we heard from Ed was a really strong message

:36:38.:36:42.

on the economy. We heard that there would be green growth, developing

:36:43.:36:48.

jobs, tackling low paid apprenticeships and that will

:36:49.:36:51.

resonate with my voters. Are you happy with the message? Very much

:36:52.:36:57.

so. You are both going to be on message in this interview, will

:36:58.:37:01.

there be any criticism? We go to the doorsteps every week and we talk

:37:02.:37:05.

about people's concerns and their fears for the future. The NHS has

:37:06.:37:09.

come up time and again as something people love dearly but they are very

:37:10.:37:14.

afraid if it is being undermined and privatised by this government. The

:37:15.:37:18.

message from Ed yesterday was fantastic, 20,000 extra nurses so

:37:19.:37:23.

people have time... That is just an aspiration, it's not a policy.

:37:24.:37:28.

Politicians on the left and the like are always promising as thousands of

:37:29.:37:31.

this, thousands of that, people are not impressed by that any more. Hold

:37:32.:37:36.

on a minute, it is not an aspiration, it is what we have

:37:37.:37:39.

committed to do if we get into government. There is a lot of unrest

:37:40.:37:44.

and people thinking politicians don't keep promises, so if anything

:37:45.:37:48.

the bar is even higher. We know we can deliver it. It will be fully

:37:49.:37:53.

costed, we will pay through it through a mansion tax on homes over

:37:54.:37:58.

?2 million. No-one has been able to tell me at this conference how would

:37:59.:38:04.

operate. Do you know? Ed was quite clear yesterday, the threshold will

:38:05.:38:09.

be ?2 million, there will be protections for those who are asset

:38:10.:38:17.

rich bass -- asset rich but cash poor. How would you value the

:38:18.:38:22.

homes? That is the detail that is to come. You cannot have the tax

:38:23.:38:28.

without the detail. The key thing is what the tax will pay for. It is not

:38:29.:38:34.

for the sake of it, it is to support an NHS which is creaking. The other

:38:35.:38:38.

thing about yesterday's speech is that Ed presented a 10-year plan, it

:38:39.:38:43.

was not short-term pie in the sky aspirations, it was a plan to say,

:38:44.:38:47.

we need to put our economy and NHS on a stable footing over ten years,

:38:48.:38:51.

a long-term forward-thinking plan for Britain. The eyes of voters just

:38:52.:38:57.

glaze over when you talk about 10-year plans. Most people know you

:38:58.:39:02.

cannot have quick fixes in politics, so that turns them off. Having

:39:03.:39:06.

someone who understands that they are long-term challenges, evil are

:39:07.:39:10.

more generous than you say. They know you cannot create change in the

:39:11.:39:15.

space of a year or two. -- people are more generous than you say. Is

:39:16.:39:23.

Ed Miliband and asset given his dire personal ratings? He is an asset

:39:24.:39:27.

because he is serious and he takes the serious problems facing this

:39:28.:39:31.

country seriously. So why are his poll ratings so bad? People are

:39:32.:39:36.

getting to know Ed and they like him more when he is at his boldest.

:39:37.:39:43.

White macro -- the more they get to know him, the lower his poll ratings

:39:44.:39:50.

go. We are ahead in the polls. The Labour Party is, absolutely. So why

:39:51.:39:57.

are his ratings so bad? People like our ideas, and those are the ones we

:39:58.:40:01.

heard Ed setting out yesterday. When people listen to what he has to say,

:40:02.:40:05.

they see a decent, intelligent man who is at his best when he is at his

:40:06.:40:10.

boldest. They like our ideas, that is why we are ahead in the polls.

:40:11.:40:15.

How can you win win a large percentage of even Labour voters

:40:16.:40:19.

don't think he is fit to be Prime Minister and you are 25% behind the

:40:20.:40:24.

Tories on economic credibility? We are not close to the election yet

:40:25.:40:28.

and many people are yet to make up their minds. You will know their

:40:29.:40:31.

money people who are don't knows and we meet them all the time. There has

:40:32.:40:37.

been a trivialisation of politics, I think, and people do look perhaps

:40:38.:40:40.

sometimes at the celebrity and the veneer. As Ed, in the end, people

:40:41.:40:46.

will judge the two Prime Minister real candidates at the next election

:40:47.:40:49.

on the basis of what they will do for the country, not how they will

:40:50.:40:55.

look. The public really get that. We shall see. Thank you. Ed Miliband

:40:56.:41:10.

promised 20,000 nurses, 8000 GPs, 5000 home care workers, extra

:41:11.:41:15.

midwives. Andy Burnham was on the show yesterday and he was warmly

:41:16.:41:18.

received when he spoke to the conference earlier this morning.

:41:19.:41:23.

Remember that solemn promise of no top-down reorganisation? It was a

:41:24.:41:29.

barefaced lie. APPLAUSE

:41:30.:41:38.

Days into office, the Tories set about dismantling your NHS. The plan

:41:39.:41:45.

that dared not speak its name before the last election is now playing for

:41:46.:41:53.

all to see. Run it down. Break it up. Sell it off. So today we serve

:41:54.:42:01.

notice on Cameron and Clegg. Thursday, made a seventh, 2015. --

:42:02.:42:10.

May seventh. Your day of reckoning on the NHS.

:42:11.:42:17.

A reckoning for trashing the public's most prized asset without

:42:18.:42:25.

their permission. And a reckoning for a ruinous reorganisation that

:42:26.:42:28.

has dragged it down and left it on the brink. A winter crisis in A

:42:29.:42:35.

Now a spring, summer and autumn prices too. Over 3 million people on

:42:36.:42:41.

NHS waiting lists. Families waiting longer for cancer treatment to

:42:42.:42:44.

start. The National Cancer target missed for the very first time. The

:42:45.:42:49.

NHS can't take five more years of Cameron. Our 10-year plan for the

:42:50.:42:56.

NHS is founded on people before profits. We will free the NHS from

:42:57.:43:04.

Cameron's market. And, yes, repeal his toxic health and social care at

:43:05.:43:09.

if it's the first thing that we do. APPLAUSE

:43:10.:43:16.

I can announce a big change in the way the NHS supports carers so they

:43:17.:43:22.

can keep going. No longer invisible but at the very centre of this new

:43:23.:43:27.

service. So today we announce new support for carers, the right to a

:43:28.:43:29.

break or respite care. The right to an annual health check.

:43:30.:43:42.

Help with hospital car parking charges. Why do we do that? Because

:43:43.:43:44.

they matter as much to me too. And we will go further. We will give

:43:45.:43:55.

all families the right to care in their home if that is what they

:43:56.:44:00.

want. A National health and care service. Truly there from cradle to

:44:01.:44:08.

grave. Make no mistake. This coming election is a battle for the soul of

:44:09.:44:15.

the NHS. The fight of our lives. Now we must all walk 300 miles for the

:44:16.:44:19.

NHS to every doorstep in the land. And we walk out from here would

:44:20.:44:36.

hope, with pride with passion, with a plan you can believe in. But in

:44:37.:44:41.

the end of this is about more than us. This is about you. Your

:44:42.:44:48.

children. Your grandchildren. Your great-grandchildren. It is about

:44:49.:44:54.

whether there will be an NHS still there for them in their hour of

:44:55.:44:59.

need, as it has been for you. Don't regret it when it's gone. Join the

:45:00.:45:04.

fight for it now. So I make this appeal to you. Help the party that

:45:05.:45:10.

founded the NHS. Give it a new beginning. Help us make it the

:45:11.:45:15.

service we all want it to be. An NHS that puts people before profit. An

:45:16.:45:22.

NHS that cares for the carers. An NHS there for your mum and dad. An

:45:23.:45:28.

NHS with time to care. An NHS for all of you.

:45:29.:45:34.

Passionate speech by Andy Burnham, on the last morning of the Labour

:45:35.:45:44.

Party conference here in Manchester, he has the delegates to their feet,

:45:45.:45:50.

with a strong defence of the NHS. It has been a continuing theme for the

:45:51.:45:54.

Labour Party throughout conference, putting the NHS centre stage in the

:45:55.:46:00.

upcoming election. It is clear from what Ed Miliband were saying

:46:01.:46:03.

yesterday, what Andy Burnham has just said this morning. In the

:46:04.:46:08.

Labour election pitch next May, the NHS will be at the centre of it.

:46:09.:46:14.

Injecting passion into this conference on the final morning. It

:46:15.:46:21.

is difficult to win an election if you are not trusted on the economy.

:46:22.:46:25.

and Labour's polling on economic credibility is poor - trailing well

:46:26.:46:28.

They are behind by as much as 25 points in recent polls.

:46:29.:46:35.

But has this conference made any impact on that?

:46:36.:46:37.

Jo Co's got some guests with her in Westminster:

:46:38.:46:41.

You remember the phrase, "it is the economy, stupid", these guests will

:46:42.:46:47.

be chewing over what Ed Miliband did and did not say. Alistair Feith, and

:46:48.:46:56.

Simon Walker. First of all, is it forgiveable that a man as leader of

:46:57.:47:00.

the Labour Party, who wants to be Prime Minister, to forget his

:47:01.:47:06.

passage on the deficit? Not really, that is the simple answer. Growth

:47:07.:47:12.

and economy and macroeconomic policy should be at the centre of what they

:47:13.:47:16.

are doing, if they really want to generate more revenue, to finance

:47:17.:47:19.

the NHS, and whatever else they want to do, they need an economy that is

:47:20.:47:24.

growing well, not damaged by deficit, that is not out of control.

:47:25.:47:28.

We need far more on macroeconomic policy and we got nothing. In city,

:47:29.:47:33.

in business, if you were watching, that is a major issue. Business

:47:34.:47:37.

reacted positively to some of the announcements that have come out

:47:38.:47:41.

during the conference, if not actually in Ed Miliband's speech. We

:47:42.:47:46.

have been very positive about the position on immigration, pledging to

:47:47.:47:52.

remove caps on immigration. Did she announce that? It was in a fringe

:47:53.:47:57.

meeting. I worry about the speech last night, Ed Miliband is not

:47:58.:48:01.

anti-business, he's not pro-business, he does not seem to be

:48:02.:48:05.

terribly interested in it at all! There is an awful lot of people in

:48:06.:48:08.

the Labour Party who run businesses, who know how they work, know the

:48:09.:48:12.

risks business owners take. There seems to be no recognition from the

:48:13.:48:15.

leader that the money has got to come from somewhere, and it comes

:48:16.:48:19.

from the private sector, it comes from people who start companies and

:48:20.:48:23.

mortgage their homes to get them going. No recognition of that.

:48:24.:48:29.

Instead, a pantomime villain: Hedge fund is, tobacco companies, fat cats

:48:30.:48:35.

in mansions. -- hedge funds. He says, soak them, they will pave

:48:36.:48:38.

everything. Does not work. says, soak them, they will pave

:48:39.:48:42.

was very clear in his speech about austerity, that spending restraint

:48:43.:48:46.

will continue, perhaps that is why it did not go down

:48:47.:48:49.

will continue, perhaps that is why win back trust in terms of handling

:48:50.:48:53.

the economy, balancing the books on current spending, not capital

:48:54.:48:57.

spending. Are those the things you want to hear? That is the point, the

:48:58.:49:01.

definition of balance budget means massive fiscal loosening, borrowing

:49:02.:49:06.

far more money than the College and is borrowing. Loosening on... ? --

:49:07.:49:12.

far more money than the coalition is borrowing.

:49:13.:49:16.

Timmy, we need to see much more... We need to see what the Labour Party

:49:17.:49:22.

means when it talks about austerity, how is it going to reduce the budget

:49:23.:49:27.

deficit and raise revenues, it wants to pay for everything it wants to

:49:28.:49:33.

do. -- to me. And they are not doing particularly well, in turn, that

:49:34.:49:37.

should inform the Labour Party. The budget deficit is going to be even

:49:38.:49:41.

bigger than we thought it would be. Target slipping, revenue is going to

:49:42.:49:43.

be even bigger than we thought it would be. Target slipping, revenues

:49:44.:49:46.

not coming in fast enough. There is a problem. The idea that the budget

:49:47.:49:48.

deficit is not an issue, completely wrong. Talking about Ed Miliband

:49:49.:49:59.

being "abusiness", they are pretty popular on some things. Means

:50:00.:50:07.

testing Winter fuel payment, 75%, mansion tax, ?2 million properties,

:50:08.:50:13.

72% in favour. 50p top rate of tax, 65%. You could argue that people

:50:14.:50:17.

like what they see in the Labour policies. But the leader speech

:50:18.:50:21.

coming up to an election has got to reach people outside of the comfort

:50:22.:50:25.

zone, outside of the established... These are people from all parties,

:50:26.:50:30.

Conservative voters supported that. Hitting those points is something

:50:31.:50:33.

that you can do for populist reasons but if you raise taxes, if you say

:50:34.:50:37.

you will impose new taxes on industries that have not had those

:50:38.:50:41.

taxes before, you are threatening the whole attractiveness of the UK

:50:42.:50:45.

as an investment destination. France has lost 95% of foreign investment

:50:46.:50:51.

over the last ten years. We are a great place to invest at the moment

:50:52.:50:56.

but he is threatening to put up taxes, capriciously, to fit a

:50:57.:51:00.

particular industry. That shows how you are indifferent to the plight of

:51:01.:51:06.

businesses. You will not be a welcoming destination for people

:51:07.:51:08.

wanting to put their money in somewhere. What about the increase

:51:09.:51:15.

in the minimum wage? Is that something that will put off

:51:16.:51:18.

businesses, some businesses have welcomed it. It has gone down well

:51:19.:51:22.

with the public. The key with increasing the minimum wage, all

:51:23.:51:26.

parties are committed to increasing the minimum wage but the question

:51:27.:51:30.

is, how far? Labour will go further than the current system. The big

:51:31.:51:35.

danger, if you increase it faster than productivity growth, on the

:51:36.:51:38.

margins you will lose some jobs, that is what quite a lot of people

:51:39.:51:42.

are worried about. The increase they are talking about is not that great,

:51:43.:51:46.

I don't think, but I suspect it is a bit too quick and will cost some

:51:47.:51:51.

jobs. I would like to see the minimum wage get to that level. Low

:51:52.:51:54.

pay commission has done a pretty good job of dealing with this over

:51:55.:51:58.

the last ten years outside of the political agenda. We do not want

:51:59.:52:02.

elections to become a wage auction, where somebody says it will be ?8,

:52:03.:52:08.

and they have already said, ICU ?8 and raise you ?10! Where'd you go?

:52:09.:52:13.

The low pay commission does a great job, let them doing it. Mansion tax,

:52:14.:52:18.

no frontbencher so far has been able to explain in detail exactly how

:52:19.:52:25.

about Mansion tax is going to work -- I see your ?8 and raise you ?10.

:52:26.:52:34.

You would have to extend the tax on far more homes and other properties.

:52:35.:52:38.

Looking at France, a country that has had a wealth tax for many years.

:52:39.:52:44.

Their tax taxes every asset from about ?1 million a year. I suspect

:52:45.:52:48.

that is the direction of travel, and that has been disastrous for the

:52:49.:52:52.

French economy, it is one reason my semi-French entrepreneurs have come

:52:53.:52:57.

to Britain. If you look at other countries that have tried to do

:52:58.:52:59.

this, the mechanism people talk about when it comes to the Labour

:53:00.:53:04.

Mansion tax is quite unfair. If you own a lot of homes were under ?10

:53:05.:53:09.

million, you will not pay it. -- ?2 million. If you are a buy to let

:53:10.:53:14.

landlord, you will not pay it, a pensioner that has retired may not

:53:15.:53:19.

pay it. It does not make sense. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

:53:20.:53:22.

Sadly, no Yvette Cooper, she is just getting onto her feet now, we have

:53:23.:53:30.

run out of time for her. But the Shadow Justice Secretary had his

:53:31.:53:34.

turn, he began by talking about his childhood memories in the 1980s, a

:53:35.:53:40.

Muslim son of Pakistani immigrants, he described it as a hostile time.

:53:41.:53:45.

But thanks to the Labour Party, he saw that change was possible. I am

:53:46.:53:49.

stood here today as your Shadow Justice Secretary. APPLAUSE

:53:50.:53:56.

The son of Pakistani immigrants from a council estate in South London,

:53:57.:53:59.

because of labour, anything is possible! APPLAUSE

:54:00.:54:08.

That same burning desire to fight for justice led me to be a human

:54:09.:54:12.

rights lawyer. Taking on tough cases. Bullying, deaths in custody,

:54:13.:54:18.

standing up for workers rights. Lives turned upside down, families

:54:19.:54:24.

ripped apart, because of injustice. Defending people 's dignities, and

:54:25.:54:27.

writing wrongs. And yes, transforming lives because of

:54:28.:54:34.

labour's human rights act. -- putting right wrongs. And that is

:54:35.:54:39.

why I am so appalled, I'm so appalled by Tory plans to abolish

:54:40.:54:44.

the human rights act. And will away from the European convention for

:54:45.:54:49.

human rights. -- walk away. They want to strip people of their rights

:54:50.:54:53.

and make the justice system the preserve of the rich. Tories are

:54:54.:54:57.

rubbing their hands at the prospect of governments free to ride

:54:58.:55:02.

roughshod over the sick, the elderly, the disabled, the

:55:03.:55:07.

vulnerable. Enlightened Tories who get this, like Dominic Grieve, they

:55:08.:55:13.

have been sacked! Forgetting that without enlightened Tories, like

:55:14.:55:16.

Winston Churchill, Europe would not have the human rights that we have

:55:17.:55:21.

today! You know, I bet that if Churchill were a minister today,

:55:22.:55:25.

David Cameron would have him sacked for his views on human rights.

:55:26.:55:31.

You cannot trust the Tories to protect people 's rights. The first

:55:32.:55:36.

battle we have, stopping the Tories in their tracks. Yes, get the

:55:37.:55:40.

European Court working better, but I say to you, Mr Cameron, we will stop

:55:41.:55:46.

you stripping the British people of their rights, we will block attempts

:55:47.:55:49.

to abolish the human rights act. We will not stand by while we see you

:55:50.:55:54.

block access to vulnerable people and we will not walk away from the

:55:55.:55:57.

European Court of Human Rights. APPLAUSE

:55:58.:56:03.

But we need to recognise the rights of people who have been neglected

:56:04.:56:13.

for too long. Victims. Rotherham and Rochdale are rightly seared into the

:56:14.:56:18.

public conscience, hundreds of girls, some as young as 12 years

:56:19.:56:23.

old, abducted, raped, trafficked. And yet they were not believed or

:56:24.:56:27.

they were ignored by the police and the authorities. This must never be

:56:28.:56:28.

repeated. Labour will act, we will bring in

:56:29.:56:39.

the country 's first ever victims law transforming the culture in the

:56:40.:56:44.

police, and in the courts, giving a voice to the most vulnerable. And,

:56:45.:56:49.

we will do everything that we can to stop people becoming victims in the

:56:50.:56:53.

first place. Punishing criminals but reforming them as well.

:56:54.:56:59.

We are now joined by the BBC's Ian Watson, through no full of its own,

:57:00.:57:04.

this conference has suffered by being sandwiched between the

:57:05.:57:09.

Scottish referendum and now, the likelihood of Parliament being

:57:10.:57:15.

recalled to deal with the Syrian situation, on Friday. It has

:57:16.:57:19.

diverted attention. It has been unfortunate, you can talk about the

:57:20.:57:22.

sandwich, some of the meat in the sandwich, some people did not find

:57:23.:57:27.

it palatable enough! After the existential threat to the UK that

:57:28.:57:29.

some people felt they were dealing with last week, senior staff up

:57:30.:57:33.

there, Ed Miliband, they were frankly quite exhausted, like the

:57:34.:57:41.

rest of us. English votes, that question resurfaced, did they

:57:42.:57:44.

respond quickly enough? That is why the atmosphere has been flat,

:57:45.:57:47.

difficult to get traction when you are not setting agenda, you are

:57:48.:57:51.

asked about Syria. The shadow of Iraq still hanging over Ed Miliband.

:57:52.:57:56.

He would like to go down the United Nations Road, new has got to be

:57:57.:58:01.

cautious, cannot sound robust. He is not leading the news agenda, he

:58:02.:58:05.

following it. We expect that Parliament will be recalled after

:58:06.:58:10.

the Prime Minister speaks with the leader of Iraq in New York. So far,

:58:11.:58:15.

the speaker says there has been no request yet, but the speculation on

:58:16.:58:18.

the Conservative benches is that it will be on Friday. Ahead of

:58:19.:58:23.

conference. Again, to some extent, Labour will have to think about what

:58:24.:58:27.

its response will be, whether they will support air strikes in Iraq, if

:58:28.:58:31.

we get the request. Whether they will do this in Syria,

:58:32.:58:34.

across-the-board, where the regime were requested no such thing. No

:58:35.:58:41.

rest for any of us! That is it for today and indeed from the Labour

:58:42.:58:44.

Party conference in Manchester, coming a world-class conference

:58:45.:58:47.

venue, thanks to the people in Manchester for being so kind to us!

:58:48.:58:53.

1pm news is on BBC1, we will be in London tomorrow with more of the

:58:54.:58:57.

run-up to the recall. I shall be back with this week, on Thursday.

:58:58.:59:02.

Is rocket science easier than you think?

:59:03.:59:13.

Well, BBC iWonder is full of great questions

:59:14.:59:18.

for curious people like us. They just keep on coming.

:59:19.:59:23.

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