25/09/2014 Daily Politics


25/09/2014

Jo Coburn with all the latest political news including the recall of parliament, a look back at Labour's week in Manchester and coverage of Ukip's party conference.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good afternoon, and welcome to the Daily Politics. David Cameron has

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said the UK is ready to play its part in fighting Islamic state. The

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cabinet is meeting shortly to plan for air strikes against IS in Iraq,

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and Parliament has been recalled. We will have the latest. The Labour

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conference is over for another year, and the party says it is within

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touching distance of power. Critics say the policies don't stand up to

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scrutiny. We will be looking at what Ed Miliband will offer the voters.

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The Yes campaign lost the referendum but there are signs that the 45% of

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voters who backed it have not given up, so how long will it really be

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before the question is asked again? There is no limit to the talent of

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this young European team. Nigel Farage is praising Europe, its golf

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team anyway. He also thinks the vote on Iraq has been scheduled to

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upstage his party conference. We will be talking to UKIP alive. All

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that in the next hour, with us for the whole programme today, Phil

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Collins. He writes for the times but he used to write speeches for Tony

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Blair, remember him? Phil's top tip for public speaking is to avoid

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cliches, at the end of the day, going forward from here, I would

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literally like to welcome you to the show. Thank you. After flying back

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from the United Nations in New York overnight, David Cameron is chairing

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a Cabinet meeting, a war cabinet meeting, in all but name. Following

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a seven hour emergency debate in the House of Commons, the vote at the

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end of it looks a cure, with both Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg signed up.

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-- looks secure. UK action will be limited with Labour ruling out

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extending the strikes to Syria. In a moment, we will speak to Alex

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Forsyth in Downing Street, but first, David Cameron speaking to the

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UN overnight. So we have a clear basis in international law for

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action, and we have a need to act in our own national interest to protect

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our people and our society. So it is right that Britain should now move

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to a new phase of action. I am, therefore, recalling the British

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Parliament on Friday to secure approval for the United Kingdom to

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take part in international air strikes against ISIL in Iraq. Our

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correspondence, Alex Forsyth, is outside number ten. Tell us exactly

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how this is going to be constructive tomorrow, what will the choreography

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B of this debate? As you say, in the next hour we are expecting ministers

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to meet here at Downing Street to discuss, we presume, the wording of

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the motion that will then be put before Parliament. David Cameron

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will open the debate, it will last for some seven hours tomorrow

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morning, and then there will be a closing speech from the Deputy Prime

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Minister, Nick Clegg, and at that point MPs will of course vote. The

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last time Parliament was recalled for something like this was last

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year, when David Cameron tried to get the backing of Parliament for

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the intervention in Syria. He failed similarly, he has been gathering

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support before he even started to consider putting this motion forward

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this time. So the vote looks pretty secure. There may of course be some

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backbench MPs who are not happy or who have questions, but what's

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interesting is the way we expect that motion to be framed, which is

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very focused, limited, talking specifically about Britain joining

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air strikes in Iraq and not Syria. That has been done because David

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Cameron will be worried that he could not get support from all his

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backbenchers, and also from the Labour Party and possibly coalition

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partners. But he has also been criticised on the other side for

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being slow, in some people's minds, for actually acting. He has had to

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consider this carefully because all over this debate the shadows of the

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previous conflicts of Iraq in and Afghanistan. After the Syrian defeat

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last year, there is a sense that there is very little public appetite

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or indeed in Parliament for Britain getting sucked into another

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long-running, messy complex situation in the Middle East. So

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David Cameron is conscious of fact and punch is of the fact that he

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needs to be able to secure -- conscious of the fact that he needs

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to be able to secure support this time. Of course, he is well behind,

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because those US air strikes have already been going on in Iraq for

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some time, and indeed in Syria, and the intervention written is

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discussing is, to all intents and purposes, fairly limited. But by

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tomorrow evening, Britain will be at war. It certainly looks that way, we

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have had all three party leaders coming out to support this idea so

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we could mobilise fairly quickly to send RAF planes out, but what they

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are being very careful to say is that they are only talking about

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Iraq, and not talking about combat troops on the ground, because there

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really is no sense there is any public desire for that, and they

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have been cleared to say that if it came to that, or the biggest

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question of what happens about Syria, it would have to go back

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before Parliament to get the approval of MPs before any further

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action was taken. We are joined by the Conservative MP, James Gray. He

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is in our Westminster studio, and by Chris nylon from stop the war

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organisation. He is organising a protest this evening. As I have

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said, it is almost certain now that the UK will deploy military strikes

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against IS targets in Iraq. Wider you not support such a mission? Melo

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I think it is just extraordinary that three years after the last

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catastrophic intervention in Iraq ended, this will be the fourth major

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attack that Britain has been involved in in the last 13 years.

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The other ones have ended in absolute disaster. Are we saying we

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are leading nothing from history, nothing from those experiences? It

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is not just that we are in danger of repeating the same mistakes, but

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every time we launch another these assaults, we plunge the region

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further and further into chaos and disarray. Look at the state of the

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Middle East now, 13 years after the start of the war on terror. It is

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catastrophic, and we have been part of creating that situation. But are

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you saying because of what happened, the intervention in Iraq, Britain

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should never again be involved in any sort of intervention, be it

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humanitarian or military? That is another question. I think all the

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military interventions we have been involved in in the last 13 years

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have been disastrous, and I don't think we should be doing the same

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thing again. That is not to say there aren't things that can be

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done, but the idea that the only thing that can be done in this

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situation is aerial bombardment on Iraq is absurd. How would you stop

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IS rebels taking over a country and also beheading hostages that have

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come from this country, America and France? One thing I would do is to

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stop arming the countries that have funded ISIS. Also, I would get

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involved in some aid and investment into a country that we ourselves

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have damaged irreparably. James Gray, let's get your response to

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that, why is the UK almost definitely now going to be launching

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air strikes in a region of the country where according to Chris Nye

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and lots of other people have been disastrous in the past? Chris and

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others will argue against any warfare in the world, but these

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people, ISIL, are the most brutal people in the history of the Middle

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East, and it is important we should hit them hard where ever they be.

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These pacifists are just wrong. I strongly support the proposal we

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should go against ISIS, where ever they may be, and I strongly support

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the fact Parliament has been recalled tomorrow to discuss it. My

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own particular line is that I think David Cameron should have acted

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sooner and swifter under the authority he has as Prime Minister,

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rather than asking for a vote. Do you think it is unnecessary to have

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this vote, and if it is within his powers and remit, he should have

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just joined the US-led strikes and some of the other players in the

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region and gone ahead? It is not only unnecessary, it means it is

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hampering comet we have to come back to Parliament for a vote on every

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single matter. ISIS are both in Syria and Iraq. Not hitting Syria

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because he lost a vote on at this time last year is probably the wrong

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thing to be. We need to hit these guys wherever they may be, if they

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hit Turkey, we hit them there probably. Tying ourselves in knots

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because of the need to get a Commons vote is quite wrong. The Prime

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Minister should use his authority, as a leader, as a statesman, he

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should be taking us to war if that is the right thing to do to stop

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these brutal murders. What is your political settlement for after the

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air strikes, let's said IS is contained and pushed back to Syria,

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what would be your political settlement for the region? It has to

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be a matter for the government of Iraq, I am very hopeful they can

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ring to the three sides. It won't be easy, and bring in the UAE and

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Jordan and other people trying to achieve that. Let me come to Phil

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Collins, to take up James Gray's point that this was unnecessary to

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have this vote, do you think it sets a dangerous precedent that every

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time there will be some decision taken on military action, Parliament

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will have today record? Reign I think it has been said, I think it

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will happen every time. It is not a bad thing reign in a democracy to

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have a parliamentary vote on going to war.

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I think, Chris, I take your points, but you have to recognise there is a

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very signal difference from the last Iraq intervention, which is to say

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the Iraqi government has requested our help. But not a big difference

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from Afghanistan, where we were told military strikes would get rid of

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the Taliban, and actually what has happened is that Alabama, 13 years

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later, is stronger than it was women first went in. Green there is

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another very important difference, we have seen green there is another

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very important difference, we have seen British people in video clips

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in peril. You are essentially saying right now we do nothing. I am not

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saying that at all. What I am saying is if we know this intervention

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takes place it will make matters worse, because history tells us

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that. They have all ended in disaster. Give me an example of a

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similar the literary intervention that has done anything other than

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actually increase bitterness... My very point is that they are not

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similar. We were told exactly the same things before the attack on

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Afghanistan, that we needed to wipe these people out and degrade them.

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Green do you not think that is true? No, I don't think we can deal with

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these situations thousands of miles away by bombing people. A bunch of

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bandits are attempting to claim the mantle of a state and you are

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essentially saying do nothing. No, I am saying I don't want to kill

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innocent civilians because it will make things worse. We have got

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people coming across the border from Syria to Turkey, they are getting

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ever closer to European shores, in that sense. If you left them

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unchecked, what do you think would happen? Look at the situation back

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in 2001. The problem with terrorism was located in Pakistan and one or

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two other areas, now it is spreading around the world, which is what this

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action will do, deepen the problem. A recruiting sergeant for different

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jihadi groups, which we have seen in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and now we

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are seeing it across this region of the Middle East, perhaps this is not

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the right strategy? It was the wrong strategy in Afghanistan, we should

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not have been there for eight to ten years, we should have gone in and

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hit Al-Qaeda very hard, taken out Osama bin Lardner and got out again.

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That that is what we should do, with IS, destroy them. The Pasha fist --

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the pacifist approach to say was bad and we should not do them, it would

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consign Britain to the backwaters. We must get out there and do the

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right thing. These brutal people are beheading children because they

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won't denounce Christ. These are awful people and we must stamp out

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from this world, the only way to do that is by military force. Do you

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think you will be decades before this issue is resolved, which is

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what President Obama has said? But we will not be responsible for that.

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That will be for the government of Iraq. But isn't that the problem,

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that when British support and American sport has pulled out of

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regions like Afghanistan for example, all that happens is those

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extremists comeback in? If they come back end, we will come back too.

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Just sitting in Afghanistan, for eight to ten years, it is quite the

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wrong thing to do. We could not rebuild the state, and we can not do

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that in Iraq either. It is a job for the neighbouring Arab states too.

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Our job is to take out the bad guys and then leave again. What about

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boots on the ground? There has been equipped by quite a fume military

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commander saying it will have to be boots on the ground in order to

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defeat ISIS rather than contain them -- quite a few. The notion of

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sending in a brigade of infantry, tanks and so on, that is completely

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absurd. We would not possibly want to do that. I think if we can

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destroy these people from the air, and my goodness, the force America

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are unleashing is terrifying to see, let's destroy them from the air and

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leave it to the new Iraqi government and Iran come for example, who are

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looking quite helpful, to put the whole thing together again.

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Is it sustainable to say that Labour will support air strike, not in

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Syria when people say unless you attack both, it will not work? Not

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over time but there was a clear difference, the Iraqi government is

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legitimate and want someone to negotiate and talk with them whereas

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in Serbia that was not true and you were working in a vacuum with no

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opposition. There is a difference and we have requests from the Iraqi

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government for help. In the end, it will not last because the murderous

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bandits of Islamic State will not observe that distinction and they

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are spreading. Thank you both very much.

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So the Red Flag has been sung and Labour has packed up its party

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Yesterday saw some rousing speeches in Manchester from the likes

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of Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham and Harriet Harman told delegates

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the party was in touching distance of power.

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A lot of the attention has been on the things Ed Miliband forgot to

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mention in his speech, like the deficit and immigration.

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But they also told us quite a lot about their policies going

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His spoke for a 66 minutes without notes and famously missed out on a

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couple of important passages so this time we were letting cheat a little

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bit. The Health Service takes centre stage, including a promise for more

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NHS staff, funded partly by a mansion tax on homes over ?2 million

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as well as a levy on tobacco companies and a crack down on tax

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avoidance. There is a pledge to increase the minimum wage to ?8 by

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2020 and Police Commissioners will be given marching orders, as will

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the migration cap. 16 and 17-year-olds will have the vote and

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he reiterated the promise to build 200,000 homes a year by 2020. Less

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popular with delegates was a plan to limit the rise in child benefit to

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1% for the first two years of the parliament. This popular with the

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Shadow Cabinet was a plan to cut the wages of ministers by 5% and freeze

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them until Labour has achieved its promise to balance the books.

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And we're joined now from Leicester by the

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Shadow Cabinet Office Minister Jon Ashworth and from our Westminster

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studio by the Conservative Party Chairman, Grant Shapps.

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Welcome. John Ashworth, let us pick up on the deficit. How can Labour

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bring it down? Ed Miliband has a good grace to admit he forgot those

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lines but what we did here was Ed Balls saying we have a plan to

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reduce the deficit and balance the books when it comes to current

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spending and no manifesto commitment that we will make will be paid for

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by borrowing, we will cost every single commitment that we put in

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this manifesto so that was in his speech. How can you bring down

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borrowing? And the deficit? If you win next year? Over the next eight

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months we will outline further plans on the deficit and it must wait for

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the Autumn statement from the Chancellor and the budget for next

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year as well because we can see the expect picture but the key thing was

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we were seeing no commitment will be paid for by borrowing and I wonder

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if Grant Shapps can make the same promise? That is not capital

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spending, you'll give yourself room to manoeuvre on that soon you could

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borrow to invest? No commitment in the manifesto will be paid for the

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Berlin, every single commitment this week is funded. The commitment to

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increasing number of doctors and nurses in the NHS will be paid for

:19:10.:19:14.

partly by the mansion tax and other measures so those are the policies

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we were outlining and they will be costed, not paid for by borrowing

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and I wonder if the Tories can say that? Let us look at the Tories,

:19:23.:19:30.

Grant Shapps, how can the deficit -- how is the target cutting going? We

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know that we inherited a deficit that McGrath I know, I know! You can

:19:35.:19:40.

tell me because we know the figures, how is it going? Don't take it one

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month at a time. By the time of the next election we can go into that

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saying we have halved the deficit. What Labour says is they will keep

:19:57.:20:02.

within whatever the budget rules are and they mention only the current

:20:03.:20:08.

spending and not the structural part, that is the other money, and

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the did not say they would make that by banging up taxes, taxing the

:20:13.:20:18.

pension and the family home, what they call goods like cigarettes. The

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point is, the only way they can balance this is the same old way

:20:26.:20:28.

from Labour, more taxes and spending. We will come to that. I

:20:29.:20:36.

want to clarify, so far, borrowing has been ?2.6 billion higher than

:20:37.:20:43.

last year, you are not on target to cut the deficit in the way that

:20:44.:20:48.

George Osborne claimed and it is not easy, even with all of your talk

:20:49.:20:51.

about austerity, to balance these books? It is not. We have seen a

:20:52.:21:00.

very significant figure, more than one third off, and we shall go into

:21:01.:21:04.

the election doing even better but the job is not done by giving the

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keys back to the people who crashed the economy and letting them borrow

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and tax all over again. Before they have even sorted out the last mess,

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and that does represent the biggest risk to the economy. How can you do

:21:22.:21:29.

this? More taxes? That is what we have heard. A mansion tax and a

:21:30.:21:36.

higher top rate. You want a higher minimum wage for businesses. Where

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are these cuts? The spending cuts in public borrowing? Or is this all

:21:42.:21:49.

from tax rises? It is true we have said we will increase the tax for

:21:50.:21:53.

millionaires, which grant shops has cut back, and also the mansion tax.

:21:54.:22:03.

-- Grant Shapps. In Hertfordshire, he lives there, and over the last

:22:04.:22:10.

five years, there are 133 houses sold and only three of them went for

:22:11.:22:14.

over ?2 million, so the vast majority of homes don't even go for

:22:15.:22:20.

that. Is this all going to be about tax rises? Well, there's the lead

:22:21.:22:29.

roles said we would have to freeze or cap child benefit at 1%. That

:22:30.:22:34.

rings in a few hundred million. That is not the sort of policy that goes

:22:35.:22:40.

down well at Labour Party Conference is but Ed Balls also said we would

:22:41.:22:46.

cut ministerial pay, I do not know if that is something Grant Shapps is

:22:47.:22:50.

prepared to sign up to. We have to outline further policies but we must

:22:51.:22:58.

wait and see the Autumn Statement to see what the fiscal position is. Let

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us go to the mansion tax. How many houses will be affected by this? And

:23:04.:23:13.

what will the average cost be? We think we can raise ?1.2 billion or

:23:14.:23:22.

so from this. How many houses? We will have to look at the details and

:23:23.:23:26.

we shall have some consultation on this. We think we can raise about

:23:27.:23:34.

?1.2 billion for the National Health Service. I do not understand how

:23:35.:23:39.

this will work, how can you value the zones? ?2 million homes that

:23:40.:23:45.

were bought at that price or houses that have risen in value since they

:23:46.:23:51.

were bought 20 years ago? This is what we have to work on. How do you

:23:52.:23:57.

know you will get this much money? If you have not even worked out the

:23:58.:24:06.

basic details? We think we will get ?1.2 billion but these are good

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questions, which is why we think the Office for Budget Responsibility

:24:10.:24:14.

should test all of the opposition policies so that when people come to

:24:15.:24:18.

making decisions at the General Election, they will know whether

:24:19.:24:23.

those policies add up. That is something that the Tory party are

:24:24.:24:26.

not alone in custody, I do not know what they are scared of but if they

:24:27.:24:30.

were prepared to do that, we could look into this and have thus laid

:24:31.:24:34.

out. Grant Shapps, what is your reaction to the mansion tax? You

:24:35.:24:38.

have always been against this but what is wrong with people who either

:24:39.:24:44.

have recently bought or own ?2 million homes paying a percentage

:24:45.:24:48.

and property tax quiz night he has let the cat out of the bag, they

:24:49.:24:55.

have not thought this through. The amount of money required to revalue

:24:56.:24:58.

homes, a process you would have to go through in advance, costs ?400.

:24:59.:25:04.

There is already a cost involved before you start to get anybody.

:25:05.:25:07.

Some of his colleagues have suggested it would affect homes that

:25:08.:25:11.

come down to only ?400,000, that would be in the North as well, and

:25:12.:25:19.

John has let... High with that the? They have talked about how much they

:25:20.:25:23.

want to raise from this and there is doubt is whether it would raise

:25:24.:25:33.

that. -- how would that we. In that clip, the discussions you are

:25:34.:25:37.

having, that's it everything you need to know about Ed Miliband and

:25:38.:25:40.

the Labour Party, they got us in this mess, they have not worked out

:25:41.:25:44.

any long-term plan and what they are coming up with is clutching at

:25:45.:25:47.

straws, they didn't mention that one of the new taxes they want to

:25:48.:25:51.

introduce will effectively tax people's pensions, ordinary people

:25:52.:25:54.

watching this programme will have higher pension tax and higher home

:25:55.:26:01.

tax and they will be back to borrowing and spending. Is that

:26:02.:26:08.

true? I will not take lessons from Grant Shapps... Is that true? Is a

:26:09.:26:17.

tax on people's pensions? I do not accept that. That is exactly what

:26:18.:26:23.

was announced. You have been putting a silly messages saying Labour will

:26:24.:26:29.

tax family homes, and in your village, only three houses... You

:26:30.:26:35.

have said that. Is it true about the tax on pensions? No! I do not know

:26:36.:26:40.

what he is talking about. Scare stories. Why doesn't he say, we will

:26:41.:26:49.

cost all the opposition parties. So that people can be confident that

:26:50.:26:54.

those party manifestoes have been costed. It is a very reasonable

:26:55.:27:01.

request. Why can't that happened? It is for the Labour Party dissenter

:27:02.:27:06.

policies. Why can't the OBR that those policies? Because that

:27:07.:27:14.

institution independently looks at the budgets of government, that is

:27:15.:27:18.

the point. What are you frightened of? They do not cost Conservative

:27:19.:27:27.

policy. Just government policies. Some of the other things. Where do

:27:28.:27:31.

you stand on the proposal to impose a levy on tobacco companies? Argue

:27:32.:27:37.

against that? That is absolutely fine to talk about those proposals

:27:38.:27:39.

for taxing things like tobacco. You would agree? I would argue that

:27:40.:27:46.

those plans do not stack up. John was very confused about introducing

:27:47.:27:51.

the tax and pensions, they have, they talk about raising money

:27:52.:27:53.

through pension funds meaning pensions will be worth less, just as

:27:54.:27:58.

when Gordon Brown raided those pensions in Europe at the time, they

:27:59.:28:04.

are going to do that again. And the only thing I was tweeting was how

:28:05.:28:07.

extraordinary it was to have the Labour leader who forgot to mention

:28:08.:28:11.

the most important issue facing this country. The deficit that was

:28:12.:28:17.

created by them. Before we let you add to that point, it is clear you

:28:18.:28:22.

are against the mansion tax, not the proposal to impose a levy on the

:28:23.:28:24.

profits of tobacco companies. Are you ending tax relief which allows

:28:25.:28:30.

hedge fund is to avoid paying tax? This is where you end up taxing

:28:31.:28:34.

ordinarily pensions? You are against that? You will fall into the trap of

:28:35.:28:40.

being on the side of the wealthy and millionaires. You're against the top

:28:41.:28:46.

rate of tax and mansion tax? The tax relief or head funds. You'll be

:28:47.:28:50.

accused of being on the side of the few? We have tightened up all manner

:28:51.:28:55.

of loopholes and we are bringing in more money from the wealthiest

:28:56.:29:00.

people in this country. Secondly, it is not the case that Labour are

:29:01.:29:03.

doing these things and it will not hit ordinary people, it will. And we

:29:04.:29:08.

have made sure that 25 million people in this country, including

:29:09.:29:13.

people on minimum wage, who pay one third of the tax paid when Labour

:29:14.:29:17.

was in power, are paying far less tax so we either people on the side

:29:18.:29:21.

of ordinary hard-working taxpayers. And for Labour, adding nearly

:29:22.:29:26.

bankrupted this country, to ask us to do the same thing again is

:29:27.:29:30.

asking... You can have the final word, about those tweets? You will

:29:31.:29:36.

pay more VAT when you promise you want but up VAT, they have had tax

:29:37.:29:42.

credits cut and you promised they would not and many disabled and

:29:43.:29:46.

foldable people pay the bedroom tax, that very pernicious tax and you

:29:47.:29:49.

have given greater tax cuts to millionaires. We will have to leave

:29:50.:29:55.

it there. Gentleman... Gentlemen, we have to leave it there. Thank you

:29:56.:29:57.

both very much. Are you suffering

:29:58.:30:01.

from withdrawal symptoms now that Because UKIP begins its annual

:30:02.:30:02.

gathering today in Doncaster. Whatever can have led them to decide

:30:03.:30:09.

to hold their conference in Nigel Farage has been talking

:30:10.:30:11.

about his position on plans for air strikes in Iraq, but he's

:30:12.:30:15.

made one other attention-grabbing I am Nigel Farage and I love you. ,

:30:16.:30:33.

the food, the excellent transport, the greatest golfers in the world.

:30:34.:30:38.

The Ryder Cup is upon us and here are my reasons why everybody should

:30:39.:30:39.

get kind Europe. There is no, no, no, no limit to the

:30:40.:30:54.

talent of this European team. So, come on you lot, swing for Europe,

:30:55.:30:56.

your continent. Goodness. That was Nigel Farage on

:30:57.:31:05.

the fairway and joining us from consulate, UKIP's deputy leader,

:31:06.:31:11.

Susan Evans. That was for Paddy Power, an online gambling adverts.

:31:12.:31:18.

Why? I have no idea, this is the first I have heard of it. Your

:31:19.:31:25.

reaction? I suppose as he says, UKIP has never been against Europe, just

:31:26.:31:32.

against the EU. Why do it for Paddy Power, was a paid? I have no idea,

:31:33.:31:37.

I'm afraid. We will find out later on. Do you agree with your leader

:31:38.:31:42.

that the Prime Minister recalling Parliament for tomorrow is a cynical

:31:43.:31:51.

ploy to detract attention from your party conference? I do, Private eye

:31:52.:31:58.

hit the nail on head that the threat level had been raised from

:31:59.:32:02.

substantial Boris to severe Farage. Now on the day the UKIP party

:32:03.:32:06.

starts, he does something that several people have been calling him

:32:07.:32:09.

to do the Whigs, recall Parliament to try to sort out the problem of

:32:10.:32:15.

this barbaric death cult in Iraq and Syria. Surely that is at the

:32:16.:32:19.

forefront of his mind? Surely an important debate on Britain joining

:32:20.:32:23.

air strikes against, as you say, barbaric people in IS is really more

:32:24.:32:28.

important than anything else at the moment whenever he had decided to

:32:29.:32:32.

recall Parliament? Indeed, I totally agree and it has been very important

:32:33.:32:38.

for weeks. When we were asking for a recall of Parliament weeks ago when

:32:39.:32:40.

it first came to light, Cameron said no and he stayed in his wet suit on

:32:41.:32:45.

the beach in Cornwall. I think it is a cynical ploy, I'm afraid. As James

:32:46.:32:49.

Gray said earlier, this recall is unnecessary. Cameron was at the UN

:32:50.:32:55.

last night saying Britain was prepared to join air strikes, he has

:32:56.:32:58.

made his mind up, there is no need for him to go to Parliament. What do

:32:59.:33:03.

you think, do you think it is a cynical ploy? I think the self

:33:04.:33:07.

absorption that the finalist is thinking of the UKIP conference when

:33:08.:33:12.

he is recalling Parliament to think about air strikes is bizarre. Do you

:33:13.:33:16.

not think it is the session at the United Nations that figured quite

:33:17.:33:19.

large? I think it has nothing to do with the UKIP conference. Let's look

:33:20.:33:27.

at the by-elections coming up, how would you rate your chances of

:33:28.:33:33.

winning either/or birth? I think obviously we have a very, very good

:33:34.:33:37.

chance in Clacton. I was at a public meeting the last night and the

:33:38.:33:42.

audience was absolutely 100% behind UKIP. Interestingly, Nigel asked

:33:43.:33:45.

them to fill up their hands if they were members, actually he said put

:33:46.:33:49.

up your hands if you are not a member and 90% of the audience put

:33:50.:33:53.

their hands up, so it is not just the dedicated UKIP people at that

:33:54.:33:57.

meeting last night. Hayward and Middleton is interesting. Labour are

:33:58.:34:03.

doing so much in the wake of the Rotherham affair, they are doing so

:34:04.:34:07.

much worse, people lined the doubly disappointed with Labour. Listening

:34:08.:34:10.

to the arguments on your programme, I think Labour has descended once

:34:11.:34:14.

again in a party more interested in class warfare than it is about doing

:34:15.:34:18.

its best for Britain. Nigel Farage said I want to give millions of

:34:19.:34:23.

ordinary people in this country the opportunity to live a better life

:34:24.:34:26.

and do better. What is the tax regime that UKIP will put forward in

:34:27.:34:32.

its election manifesto? First and foremost, we will take everyone out

:34:33.:34:35.

on the minimum wage out of tax altogether. If a wage is deemed to

:34:36.:34:38.

be the minimum, why should it be taxed? The other issue is to raise

:34:39.:34:46.

the 40% threshold of tax and stop it is lower now than clear micro the

:34:47.:34:55.

one thing we can do to improve inward investment from international

:34:56.:35:07.

countries is to cut taxes. The tax rate was misunderstood, it was

:35:08.:35:10.

combined with national insurance and we did not get that message across,

:35:11.:35:18.

so it is going. So it will be a flat rate of 40% for the highest owners?

:35:19.:35:23.

Yes, Labour keeps going on about tax cuts for millionaire 's but they are

:35:24.:35:26.

paying more tax than they ever were under a Labour government and as a

:35:27.:35:31.

result become tree is not getting -- the country is not getting the MS

:35:32.:35:33.

would it deserves. I I grew up close to Hayward and

:35:34.:35:46.

Middlewood. The message will work there very well. I suspect it won't

:35:47.:35:50.

work well enough to win but they are certainly competitive, no doubt.

:35:51.:35:55.

What about the policies on things like tax, if you are going to cut it

:35:56.:35:59.

to the 40p top rate of tax, there would also be cut in public

:36:00.:36:03.

spending, will those appeal to constituents where? UKIP take the

:36:04.:36:07.

worst of the two main parties, Labour always burning too much and

:36:08.:36:16.

conservatives desperate for tax cuts. The thing about UKIP's

:36:17.:36:21.

policies is that public spending will go down naturally as we

:36:22.:36:23.

introduce our policies. Clearly one of the main issues... By how much

:36:24.:36:30.

would it go down? If you are controlling your borders and fewer

:36:31.:36:32.

people are coming into the country and you are controlling the sort of

:36:33.:36:38.

people who come in, like the 190 countries around the world that have

:36:39.:36:41.

controlled immigration policies, then you are only encouraging in

:36:42.:36:48.

people who can pay their way, so you are cutting costs on housing,

:36:49.:36:51.

benefits, schooling, health. Our manifesto is being costed at the

:36:52.:36:55.

moment, and ours really is going to be costed. You will have to pay for

:36:56.:37:03.

a lot if you are to raise the tax threshold for low income families,

:37:04.:37:08.

and scrapping inheritance tax. How will you meet those costs? For a

:37:09.:37:17.

start, our fundamental concept is to leave the European Union, we will

:37:18.:37:23.

also be looking at smaller sums, I am making a welfare speech to

:37:24.:37:25.

conference on Friday. One of the first things we will be doing is

:37:26.:37:28.

stopping millions of pounds being paid in child benefit to children

:37:29.:37:33.

that don't even live in Britain. There are lots of ways that we will

:37:34.:37:36.

be making cuts and announcing them in the next few days. Thank you very

:37:37.:37:41.

much. While we have been on-air, viewers in Scotland have been

:37:42.:37:45.

watching First Minister's Questions from Holyrood but they have just

:37:46.:37:48.

joined us. It was the first time Alex and has been back in the

:37:49.:37:51.

chamber since announcing he is to stand down as First Minister. I

:37:52.:37:59.

think there is an expectation after the referendum, a way to canvas,

:38:00.:38:06.

that given the comments for example not of Gladstone but certainly of

:38:07.:38:11.

Gordon Brown, what he was espousing was home rule is close to federalism

:38:12.:38:15.

as it possibly can be, then people want to see a genuine powerhouse

:38:16.:38:20.

parliament coming from the steps being taken at Westminster, rather

:38:21.:38:24.

than the insipid group of proposals that were published last spring. So

:38:25.:38:29.

in terms of securing the jobs test for a powerhouse parliament, then I

:38:30.:38:34.

shall be standing shoulder to shoulder with William Gladstone,

:38:35.:38:39.

Gordon Brown and Willie Rennie. That was Alex Salmond, speaking at

:38:40.:38:44.

Holyrood short while ago. They may have lost the referendum, but those

:38:45.:38:48.

who voted for independence last week are showing no sign of backing down

:38:49.:38:53.

in the demand for autonomy. A Facebook campaign group, called we

:38:54.:38:57.

are the 45%, in reference to the proportion of people who voted in

:38:58.:39:00.

favour of Scotland leaving the union, has been set up by those

:39:01.:39:04.

determined to keep the dream of independence alive. We are joined

:39:05.:39:06.

down the line from Glasgow by one such person, the former MSP, Tommy

:39:07.:39:11.

Sheridan. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. As you know, 55% of Scots

:39:12.:39:19.

voted to stay part of the union, do you accept the result? Of course, it

:39:20.:39:24.

is a democratic election, it was interfered with unfortunately by a

:39:25.:39:27.

lot of big businesses who tried to bully and intimidate people, and

:39:28.:39:33.

obviously the BBC played its part. But 45% of people voted yes. The

:39:34.:39:38.

last-minute intervention that should have broken all conventions and

:39:39.:39:43.

rules, but again the BBC and others never really pointed that out was

:39:44.:39:46.

the promise on the back of a fag packet that Scotland would get all

:39:47.:39:49.

of these new powers. We were told it would happen on the 19th of

:39:50.:39:51.

September. I think it is the 24th today and we are still to see them.

:39:52.:39:57.

We will come on to the promises that were made. You include the BBC, in

:39:58.:40:02.

terms of scaring and intimidating people, our business is not entitled

:40:03.:40:05.

to have an opinion and have their say? Everyone is entitled. It is

:40:06.:40:11.

just you did not like what they said. They are not entitled to

:40:12.:40:14.

threaten people would lose their jobs if they voted yes, which is

:40:15.:40:18.

what businesses did, and that is a disgrace, and you guys in the media

:40:19.:40:21.

should have done more to point that out. This was a democratic and

:40:22.:40:26.

apparently free election. You gave, for instance, coverage to the

:40:27.:40:29.

Deutsche Bank, who said if we voted yes they would bring in a new great

:40:30.:40:33.

oppression, a lot of nonsense, but you guys gave it coverage. I think

:40:34.:40:37.

we have to accept that coverage of the referendum did not cover the BBC

:40:38.:40:41.

in glory. I hope you will accept that, I am not having a go at you

:40:42.:40:46.

personally, but the BBC as an institution backed up written, that

:40:47.:40:50.

is what they did. You seem to be laying the blame for the fact you

:40:51.:40:55.

did not win that. Let's come to the issue of independence, when do you

:40:56.:41:01.

think it will be revisited? I hope in 2020, I hope next May we will

:41:02.:41:06.

have a massive majority for the pro-independence parties at the

:41:07.:41:10.

general election. I think one of the clear outcomes of this referendum is

:41:11.:41:13.

that not only are the blue Tories finished in Scotland, but the red

:41:14.:41:17.

Tories are finished in Scotland. Labour could have celebrated and

:41:18.:41:22.

hugged with all of the Tory friends last Friday, but it was a pyrrhic

:41:23.:41:29.

big three. They should look that up. -- pyrrhic victory for stock they

:41:30.:41:33.

have lost Glasgow, Dundee, West Dunbartonshire they have lost

:41:34.:41:35.

traditional Labour areas who will never vote Labour again. You say

:41:36.:41:41.

that, you are right of course, those Labour heartlands were lost in that

:41:42.:41:44.

independence referendum. Do you think he is right that there could

:41:45.:41:49.

be, and in his mind should be, another vote for independence in

:41:50.:41:54.

2020, and that Labour has lost those heartlands like Dundee and Glasgow

:41:55.:41:57.

forever? I don't think they have lost them for ever, but I think

:41:58.:42:01.

there is a severe threat to Labour in Scotland. That is one of the

:42:02.:42:05.

outcomes and Labour people are very concerned about that. Whether there

:42:06.:42:08.

will be another referendum that quickly, I doubt. I suspect the

:42:09.:42:12.

argument for independence will get weaker as Scotland get older and the

:42:13.:42:16.

oil but it is perfectly reasonable to complain for another -- to

:42:17.:42:21.

campaign for another referendum. As if the Scottish people are Jutes who

:42:22.:42:26.

see what is on the telly and read what is the paper and do as they

:42:27.:42:30.

told is really patronising. Everyone did say it was amazing to see so

:42:31.:42:33.

many people engaged in the debate on both sides. When it comes to the

:42:34.:42:39.

negotiation with UK parties over reform,

:42:40.0:35:44

Jo Coburn with all the latest political news including the recall of parliament, a look back at Labour's week in Manchester and coverage of Ukip's party conference. Also on the programme, Tommy Sheridan on the post referendum 45% campaign.


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