26/09/2014 Daily Politics


26/09/2014

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest political news and guest Paul Nuttall, UKIP deputy leader. Includes extensive coverage of the Commons debate on Air Strikes in Iraq.


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This is not a threat on the far side of the world. Left unchecked we'll

:00:09.:00:16.

face a terrorist caliphate on the shores of the Mediterranean and

:00:17.:00:20.

bordering a NATO member with a declared and proven determination to

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attack our country and our people. Afternoon folks,

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welcome to the Daily Politics. David Cameron has just told the

:00:56.:01:07.

House of Commons that Britain must join the international military

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action against Islamic State The Prime Minister urges MPs to back

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a Commons' motions authorising the RAF to join America, France and Arab

:01:13.:01:16.

nations in airstrikes against ISIS. Labour will support action in Iraq -

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but not Syria - as the Defence Decretary warns that UK involvement

:01:20.:01:23.

will be for "the long haul". Also on today's programme -

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UKIP announce a series of tax policies as the party meets for

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its autumn conference in Doncaster. We'll talk to UKIP's

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deputy leader live. All that in the next hour and with

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us for the duration we're joined by the Guardian's Zoe Williams

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and the Spectator's Hugo Rifkind. So, just over an hour ago the House

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of Commons was recalled for an emergency debate on British

:01:42.:01:46.

involvement in airstrikes against so-called Islamic State

:01:47.:01:50.

militants in Iraq. The Prime Minister got to

:01:51.:01:53.

his feet at 10.30 and set out He said Islamic State posed a direct

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threat to the British people and that military action against IS will

:01:57.:02:01.

take "not just months but years". He said the brutality of Islamic

:02:02.:02:07.

State militants was "staggering." We'll bring you some of what the PM

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has been saying in just a moment. With both front benches supporting

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intervention, there's no doubt the motion will be passed, though

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there will be rebels on both sides. British airstrikes could

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begin before the day is out. Is this sensible, Zoe? Sensible,

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wow. There is a word. The diagnosis of is correct, it is an appalling

:02:43.:02:46.

group, it is an appalling situation, there is no reason to believe their

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ambitions aren't what they say they are. Their other ambition is to draw

:02:51.:02:56.

the West into conflict, as Mali did. All the techniques and all the

:02:57.:03:00.

pantomime brutality is the same. It is a kind of stated intent to mire

:03:01.:03:06.

the West in a new Gulf War. I think you need to consider whether you are

:03:07.:03:12.

just playing into their hands. The British political establishment

:03:13.:03:14.

regards this as a really important decision. Does anybody really, in

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the rest of the world? It is an important decision for Britain T

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makes precious little difference to the Islamic state whether Britain is

:03:24.:03:27.

involved or not. But it matters to Britain whether or not we continue

:03:28.:03:29.

to have this involved role at America's shoulder. We are way

:03:30.:03:33.

behind this time. The French are in before. Five Arab nations are

:03:34.:03:37.

involved. It is their part of the world. The British contribution is

:03:38.:03:45.

going to be six ageinger to err tore tie know jets. -- six ageing Tor

:03:46.:03:59.

anyway doe jets. -- Tornadoe jets. There isn't much Cameron could have

:04:00.:04:03.

done. Are you surprised that Mr Miliband is backing the Government

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on this? The problem is, with Labour's situation, that by backing

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the Government, they bring their Syria position into scrutiny. What

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were the principles by which you refuse intervention in Syria, if

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they don't hold here? You are supporting America's intervention in

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Syria? A brutal dictator, a savage situation. Then, I think they voted

:04:26.:04:30.

against in caped of - to redeem themselves over the 2003 Iraq war.

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-- voted against in case of. Now they have done all that works

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everyone seems to be going in on Al-Sadr's side - Assad's side in

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order to fight IS. It looks like a shambles, and unfortunately for the

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Labour Party, more of a shambles on their side than it does on

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Cameron's. The Defence Minister, the Government, Mr Cameron saying we are

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in for the long haul, this could be years. Well, on what basis could

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Britain sustain years of this? We only have seven combat-ready

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squadrons and we have very little ordnance N Libya there were --.

:05:07.:05:15.

Ordnance N Libya there were 250 Tomahawk cruise missiles fired.

:05:16.:05:19.

Britain accounted for seven. I thought Miliband made a good point.

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He said there is a world of intervention designed to destabilise

:05:26.:05:28.

a government in the hope that something comes better and one to

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support a government. Labour's position makes more sense than many

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credit with. But again, it is a question of whether Britain can have

:05:37.:05:42.

an effective role. The Saudis have 300 state-of-the-art aircraft. It is

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bigger Air Force than the RAF. Where are they? Other than one or two

:05:47.:05:52.

tokens? It is the bombing Prince. They support ISIS. That's where they

:05:53.:05:56.

are. They used to. The government doesn't now. They created a monster

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earlier on Who hasn't created a monster? That's the problem. ISIS

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are using American arms. That's what they took from the Iraqi Army. The

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Americans didn't give them the arms This is part of why they keep trying

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to draw the West into the debate. What is the evidence they are trying

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to draw us in, as opposed to creating a caliphate. You said that

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twice. I don't see the evidence. They don't want to be bombed by

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F-22s It is a given. Why else would they concentrate on Western hostages

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and sending very... Because that's what they do. They are not

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concentrating on Western hostages. The media is concentrating on

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Western Hodges. -- western hostages. There are Arabs being beheaded and

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crucified every day Why would they send those videos to Obama, it is a

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standard tactic? It was said when the Americans invaded the fist time

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- you have the watches but we have the time. They know they can draw in

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firepower and they will be there in ten years when the Western

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governments have left. It would have been relatively easy for them to put

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out the message - we are establishing our horrific state and

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that's not your problem N in the -- in the manner in which the Taliban

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tried to do first of all. You are assuming too much agency and plan

:07:25.:07:27.

here to what is essentially a rag tag of militants and terrorists A

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very large rag tag, though. Absolutely. It is well-established

:07:33.:07:37.

this. Isn't a new group distinct from Al-Qaeda, is it? It is all the

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same people, led by a different man. It's Morphed. OK. Let's move on, we

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need to take more of a look at the detail of the story.

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We Z -- we do.

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So let's take a look at this story in more detail.

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The motion being debated in Parliament today is narrow

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in remit - confining airstrikes against Islamic State to Iraq.

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It also rules out ground troops in combat operations.

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The Government has said that another Commons? vote would be required

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However, earlier this week, Labour leader Ed Miliband suggested

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that such action would require a UN Security Council resolution to

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The first aircraft to be deployed would likely be six RAF Tornado GR4

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fighter bombers, currently stationed in Cyprus.

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US Central Command has so far conducted a total

:08:28.:08:31.

America has the support of five Arab countries for the airstrikes that

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And France has launched airstrikes against Islamic State over Iraq

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but is considering extending them to Syria.

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In the last few minutes we can tell you Denmark is also to commit seven

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F-15 fighter jets. Well David Cameron took 45 minutes

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to set out the case for action. Isil has murdered one British

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hostage and is threatening the lives of two more. The first terrorist

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attacks in Europe have taken place with the attack on the Jewish museum

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in Brussels. Security Services have disrupted six known plots in Europe

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as well as a terrorist attack in Australia, aimed at civilians

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including British and American tourists. Isil, is a terrorist

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organisation unlike those we have dealt with before. The brutality is

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staggering, beheadings, Crucifixions, the gouging out of

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eyes, use of rain as a weapon and slaughtering of children. They all

:09:46.:09:48.

belong in the dark ages. It is not just the brutality. It is backed by

:09:49.:09:52.

billions of dollars and has captured an arsenal of the most modern

:09:53.:10:04.

weapons. In the space of a few months, ISIL has taken control of a

:10:05.:10:08.

territory. It has already attacked Lebanon and boasts of its designs

:10:09.:10:12.

right up to the Turkish border. This is not a threat on the far side of

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the world. Left unchecked, we will face a terrorist caliphate on the

:10:17.:10:20.

shores of the Mediterranean, and bordering a NATO member, with a

:10:21.:10:25.

declared and proven determination to attack our country, and our people.

:10:26.:10:30.

This is not the stuff of fantasy. It is happening in front of us and we

:10:31.:10:34.

need to face up to it. Next, is there a clear,

:10:35.:10:38.

comprehensive plan? Yes. It starts at home with tough, uncompromising

:10:39.:10:42.

action to prevent attacks and hunt down those who are planning them. As

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the House knows, we are introducing new powers, these include

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strengthening our ability to seize passports and to stop suspects

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travel. It includes stripping British nationality from dual

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nationals and ensuring airlines comply with our no-fly list. In all

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of this we are being clear about the cause of the terrorist threat we

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face. As I have said before, that means defeating the poisonous

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ideology of Islamist extremism by tackling all extremists not just the

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violent extremists. So we are banning preachers of hate, and

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stopping people from inciting hatred in our schools, universities and

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prisons. Now, of course, some will say any action you take will further

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radicalise young people. I have to say this is a counsel of despair.

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Threat of radicalisation is already here. Young people have left our

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country to go and fight with these extremists. We must take action at

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home. But we also also have a comprehensive strategy to defeat

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these extremists abroad. Can I ask a question.

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Two questions he has not put to himself - how long will this war

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last and when will mission creep start? Well, let me answer that very

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directly. This is going to be a mission that will take not just

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months but years but I believe we have to be prepared for that

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commitment. And the reason for that, is I think, quite rightly, America,

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Britain and others, are not contemplating putting combat troops

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on the ground. There will be troops on the ground but they will be Iraqi

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troops, Kurdish troops and we should be supporting them in all the ways

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that I will describe. Labour are backing British

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airstrikes in Iraq, but not Syria. ! -- Intervention has risks but a

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dismembered Iraq will be more dangerous for Britain. I felt

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unchecked, as my honourable friend said -- Isil, unchecked means more

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persecution of the be innocent. This is this point - if we say it people

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we will pass by on this one t makes it far harder to persuade other Arab

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countries to play their part. People across the House has been saying it

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has to be done in the neighbourhood, we have to engage the region, but if

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we say - it is nothing to do with us, we will not intervene, it surely

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means we have less moral authority to say - we want you to play your

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part as W finally, Mr Speaker, we --. As well. Finally we should pride

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ourselves in our part of internationalism. That's when

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Britain is at its best. I want to say something about the underlying

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reasons and I think we should confront it directly, the 2003 war

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in Iraq. I understand why some who were in the House at the time will

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wonder if this is a repeat of that experience. In my view it is not,

:13:48.:13:50.

and it is worth setting out why. First, as the Prime Minister said,

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this case is about supporting a democratic state. It is not about

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overturning an existing regime and trying to build a new one from the

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rubble. A much harder undertaking. Second, there is no debate for legal

:14:03.:14:06.

action in Iraq as there was in 20003. Thirdly, there is no argument

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bomb whether military action is a last resort. Whatever side of this

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debate we are on, nobody is saying let's negotiate with IS. They are

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not people you can negotiate with. Fourth, there has been brought

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international support, not a divided world. All 23 Arab states and the

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Arab League providing support and five Arab states taking part in

:14:29.:14:31.

action. Fifth, there is no question of British ground troops being

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deployed. So, I understand the wariness there will be in the House

:14:36.:14:39.

and in the country about 2003 and whether this is a repeat but on

:14:40.:14:43.

those five grounds, it is not, and it is demonstrably not.

:14:44.:14:47.

We can talk now to our assistant political editor, Norman Smith,

:14:48.:14:49.

We have heard a flavour there from David Cameron and Ed Miliband. Can

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you give us a feel of the tone of the debate and the interventions

:14:57.:14:59.

from MPs, most of whom we assume are backing this motion?

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They may be backing it but there is no disguising widespread unease

:15:06.:15:11.

about where this is going to end. My sense is one should not be fooled by

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the skill of the majority Mr Cameron will get tonight. There is real

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disquiet about where this is going to end up. If you listen to

:15:20.:15:24.

Conservative MPs, many of them take a view that the strategy at the

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moment is half baked. And why? Because it is confined to Iraq. They

:15:30.:15:35.

make the point that ISIS's main base is in Syria and in time we will have

:15:36.:15:39.

to go into there. On the Labour side, there is a fear of Mission

:15:40.:15:48.

Creep. Mr Cameron sketched out an inordinately long campaign. That's

:15:49.:15:52.

going on for years, but he said that future prime ministers would also

:15:53.:15:55.

have to confront Islamist extremism. Already we can see one clear line of

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disagreement are merging between Mr Cameron and Ed Miliband, and that is

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Syria. Ed Miliband was clear that if there is any move to go into Syria,

:16:07.:16:10.

which Mr Cameron believes there is, he would want UN authorisation. He

:16:11.:16:17.

questions, who are the ground troops who are going to fight in Syria? And

:16:18.:16:21.

he doubts there is a route map. Quickly, you can see how this

:16:22.:16:25.

consensus over the immediate action in Iraq could fracture as soon as we

:16:26.:16:29.

go beyond that. Against the background you have just explained,

:16:30.:16:34.

of disquiet amongst MPs, give us an idea of the scale of what Britain is

:16:35.:16:39.

contributing militarily compared to the US, for example? It is

:16:40.:16:44.

miniscule. We are talking about half a dozen Tornado jets flying off from

:16:45.:16:52.

Cyprus. It is symbolic. It is meant to be politically symbol. Mr

:16:53.:16:57.

Cameron's view is that if we are serious, we will have to engage in

:16:58.:17:00.

Syria. That is where the real fighting is taking place at the

:17:01.:17:04.

moment. Mr Carman was clear that he believes there is more we can do. #

:17:05.:17:09.

Mr Cameron. He knows he has to come back to Parliament to get the

:17:10.:17:13.

authorisation and he may face a much tougher struggle. Very briefly, he

:17:14.:17:19.

did say that if he thought there was a pressing humanitarian situation

:17:20.:17:22.

and British interests were at stake, he would act first and then come to

:17:23.:17:26.

parliament for approval. Unhappiness about that. What was the reaction?

:17:27.:17:32.

That opens up a completely different line of attack, if he can go ahead

:17:33.:17:37.

under the guise of humanitarian reasons or national-security, he can

:17:38.:17:40.

go ahead and Britain will join the bombing in Syria before they get any

:17:41.:17:48.

say-so from Parliament. He was picked up on that by Peter appeared

:17:49.:17:51.

-- Peter Hain, who believes we will have to go ahead on Syria. Mr

:17:52.:17:58.

Cameron said that we would have to act but he would come quickly to the

:17:59.:18:02.

House of Commons to seek authorisation. I would be careful

:18:03.:18:06.

about reading too much into it. I think he believes there is a

:18:07.:18:10.

pressing emergency, where the ministry are saying, we have to go

:18:11.:18:16.

now, and he expects that within hours parliament would confirm the

:18:17.:18:20.

action. Looking at the other players involved, they are not having to go

:18:21.:18:25.

through quite the same parliamentary procedure as Britain, when they are

:18:26.:18:32.

contributing a small might militarily? No one is out from under

:18:33.:18:38.

the shadow of Iraq. The debate is shaped by the Tony Blair experience

:18:39.:18:43.

and that is why the government have gone down this very meticulous and

:18:44.:18:46.

painstaking approach of coming up with a very tightly circumscribed

:18:47.:18:53.

motion. Only in Iraq, no ground troops, publishing the legal advice,

:18:54.:18:57.

because they looked at what happened in 2003 to make sure they do not

:18:58.:19:01.

make the mistakes again. Why are we having to go through this process?

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Because of Iraq and Tony Blair. What about the party divisions. OK, they

:19:08.:19:13.

will pass the motion today, but with divisions within the Labour Party

:19:14.:19:17.

and Conservative Party, presumably Labour have more of a divide than

:19:18.:19:23.

the Tories? This could become a real issue for Ed Miliband. The party, at

:19:24.:19:27.

the moment, the number of people who will vote against tonight are a

:19:28.:19:32.

campaign group plus a few others, 20 or 30. But there are many who are

:19:33.:19:36.

deeply uneasy about why they are going. The reason for that is Iraq

:19:37.:19:43.

and Tony Blair. It is scarred on the soul of the Labour Party. That is

:19:44.:19:50.

remembered deeply. If we are into another protracted conflict I would

:19:51.:19:55.

not be surprised if user opposition within the Labour Party here and

:19:56.:19:58.

also, within the country. You would wonder what the appetite would be

:19:59.:20:03.

amongst Labour Party activists and supporters for engaging in another

:20:04.:20:09.

long conflict. Lets talk briefly about the Liberal Democrats. We have

:20:10.:20:12.

not heard from Nick Clegg and we know they had a firm and her war

:20:13.:20:19.

stance against Iraq. -- anti-war stance. Now, they are supporting

:20:20.:20:26.

this? We have only heard from Menzies Campbell at the moment but I

:20:27.:20:28.

would be interested to hear what Charles Kennedy will make of this.

:20:29.:20:36.

Nick Clegg when doing his radio show yesterday was indicating that he

:20:37.:20:39.

also thought they would have to go into Syria. I wonder whether we

:20:40.:20:43.

might see a gap emerging there between Nick Clegg and those around

:20:44.:20:48.

him, and the party in the country. One of the reasons the Lib Dems

:20:49.:20:51.

gained so much support in recent elections was because of their

:20:52.:20:57.

stance on Iraq. If they do a flip over that, it will only hack away

:20:58.:21:02.

even more at Lib Dem electoral support. Thank you.

:21:03.:21:08.

Vernon Coaker joins us live from Westminster. Welcome to the

:21:09.:21:16.

programme. The Americans have been bombing Iraq for six weeks, with the

:21:17.:21:22.

most sophisticated air strikes that exist anywhere in the world, yet

:21:23.:21:27.

Islamic has not lost an inch of ground. What difference will six

:21:28.:21:33.

British tornadoes make? What has happened as a result of the US air

:21:34.:21:37.

strikes and Britain, if the vote goes the right way to date will join

:21:38.:21:41.

in, has been to stabilise the situation and prevent the further

:21:42.:21:47.

advantage of ISIL in Iraq and as a consequence, give an opportunity to

:21:48.:21:53.

the ground troops in terms of the Iraqi National Army and the

:21:54.:21:59.

Peshmerga to organise strikes. Also, they can push back I sought when the

:22:00.:22:06.

time is right. You say stabilise the situation, Islamic State has not

:22:07.:22:11.

given up ground and two days ago they captured an Iraqi army base

:22:12.:22:17.

west of Baghdad. In what way are the strikes making a difference and why

:22:18.:22:20.

would the tornadoes make a difference? If it weren't for the

:22:21.:22:25.

air strikes, the situation in Iraq would be far worse in terms of the

:22:26.:22:31.

advance of ISIL. That is what the Iraqi government have said and what

:22:32.:22:35.

the Kurdistan regional government have said as well. They have

:22:36.:22:39.

welcomed the air strikes and said they have made a significant

:22:40.:22:45.

difference to what has happened. It has given an opportunity for forces

:22:46.:22:49.

in Iraq to regroup and push ISIL back. I put the point, you can only

:22:50.:22:53.

imagine what the situation would have been without US air strikes.

:22:54.:22:57.

The Americans do not think the Iraqi army will not be in shape to fight

:22:58.:23:03.

properly this side of New Year? Everyone knows there is work to be

:23:04.:23:10.

done with the Iraqi army. How long? That is a matter for the military

:23:11.:23:16.

advisers. They have said not this side of New Year. The Iraqi army is

:23:17.:23:22.

still losing to Islamic State and now six British tornadoes have

:23:23.:23:28.

become part of its air force. As soon as possible, the Iraqi National

:23:29.:23:34.

Army will be put into shape to enable them to push back. The

:23:35.:23:38.

changes I refer to, the Iraqi government needs to demonstrate to

:23:39.:23:42.

the Iraqi army and the people that they are an inclusive government and

:23:43.:23:45.

different to the last of mud. That will help to restore morale in the

:23:46.:23:50.

army, which the air strikes are also doing. It is an important part of

:23:51.:23:54.

that range of different actions that are being taken, with the Iraqi

:23:55.:24:01.

government and the Iraqi National Army and the Peshmerga, to push ISIL

:24:02.:24:07.

back. Do you believe we could be in for the long haul? We are talking

:24:08.:24:12.

about years, not just months. What we need to recognise is that this is

:24:13.:24:18.

an action that we are going to be involved with and the important

:24:19.:24:21.

thing to stay is that we would want to see that through. We would want

:24:22.:24:25.

to be successful in what we are setting out to do. How long that

:24:26.:24:30.

takes is a difficult thing to say. Certainly, we need to be sure that

:24:31.:24:35.

we can work with the military so that success comes as soon as. How

:24:36.:24:40.

many combat ready error squadrons does the RAF have? There are three

:24:41.:24:45.

squadrons of tornadoes. On which is going to the knacker's guard next

:24:46.:24:50.

year? Three squadrons of unavailable to the RAF. -- three squadrons of

:24:51.:25:00.

available. There are six at the moment, and there is a squadron in

:25:01.:25:04.

Scotland and in Afghanistan. I am sure the RAF will plan to ensure

:25:05.:25:09.

there are as many aircraft as we need available. Are the American

:25:10.:25:17.

attacks on Syria illegal? We believe they are illegal and that is why we

:25:18.:25:27.

have supported them. -- they are LEGAL. We are looking at a

:25:28.:25:39.

resolution. Why do you imply that it would be illegal to attack without a

:25:40.:25:47.

UN resolution? What I said was there a legitimacy for keeping the

:25:48.:25:50.

broadest possible support for any action in Syria. What we have said

:25:51.:25:54.

is that we have laid out certain criteria with respect to Iraq. Those

:25:55.:25:59.

criteria have been met as far as Iraq is concerned. Syria is a much

:26:00.:26:03.

more complex situation. We have not been invited in the way that we have

:26:04.:26:09.

in Iraq and we need to find a way forward that is inclusive and will

:26:10.:26:13.

make a real difference, and that is inclusive and will make a real

:26:14.:26:17.

difference, but is your party's position that the British cannot

:26:18.:26:22.

take part in action against Syria unless there is a UN resolution? We

:26:23.:26:32.

will make a decision... But you talked about a UN resolution, is it

:26:33.:26:37.

your position that you will need a UN resolution before there can be

:26:38.:26:45.

attacks on ice is in Syria? -- ISIS in Syria? Having sought the

:26:46.:26:50.

resolution, and hopefully it will be passed, we can make a judgement at

:26:51.:26:54.

the time. Of course we need a UN resolution. If it is not passed,

:26:55.:27:00.

does it mean Labour will not support attacks on Syria? Labour would make

:27:01.:27:04.

a judgement at that time as to what to do with respect to the situation

:27:05.:27:08.

in Syria. The debate today is about Iraq. What happens in Syria will be

:27:09.:27:13.

a matter to discuss at a future date to see if the criteria we have set

:27:14.:27:19.

out has been met or not. If you make a UN resolution a stumbling block,

:27:20.:27:23.

you are effectively allowing Vladimir Putin to take hostage

:27:24.:27:27.

British foreign defence policy, are due? Not at all. If he does it, you

:27:28.:27:33.

won't do it. We are seeking to maintain support in parliament, in

:27:34.:27:38.

Britain, and across the region for any action that is taken in Syria.

:27:39.:27:43.

Obviously, that is an important thing to do. We have all seen and

:27:44.:27:48.

heard about the war. There is a sense in which international

:27:49.:27:51.

institutions are not being listened to and that we do not go to them.

:27:52.:27:56.

The UN is the biggest and most important multilateral organisation

:27:57.:27:59.

that there is and that is why it is important for us to be seen to be

:28:00.:28:04.

using every single avenue we can to come to an arrangement by which we

:28:05.:28:08.

can command the broadest possible support. That is what the British

:28:09.:28:12.

people expect. The British people expect lots of things but above all,

:28:13.:28:17.

clarity, particularly when it comes to war or peace. I ask again,

:28:18.:28:21.

because I am still not clear on the party policy, if there is a UN

:28:22.:28:26.

resolution to take the war into Syria and the resolution is

:28:27.:28:29.

defeated, almost certainly because of a Russian veto, what would your

:28:30.:28:34.

party's policy then be? We would make a judgement according to the

:28:35.:28:38.

criteria we have laid out. You know the criteria, what would the policy

:28:39.:28:48.

be? It would be to make a judgement at that time. Why can you not make

:28:49.:28:51.

it now? You know the facts. I would suggest that we do not know and we

:28:52.:28:55.

would have to look at them as they evolve over the next days and weeks.

:28:56.:29:00.

We have to maintain the criteria we have too prissy the UN route. Today

:29:01.:29:04.

is about Iraq and that is the important thing we need to discuss.

:29:05.:29:11.

Why are we bothering? Our military commitment is minimal, we are coming

:29:12.:29:15.

in late, other countries have stepped up to the plate, Britain's

:29:16.:29:20.

participation is not essential, we are already very war weary. Why are

:29:21.:29:25.

we bothering to get involved? First of all, because we have been asked

:29:26.:29:32.

to by the Iraqi government. Secondly, given the careful way in

:29:33.:29:37.

which we have arrived at this particular position, that commands

:29:38.:29:40.

the general support of the British people. Thirdly, all of us recognise

:29:41.:29:45.

that we are in a situation where faced with a barbaric terrorist

:29:46.:29:51.

organisation determined to set a caliphate, that Britain in terms of

:29:52.:29:54.

regional and national security interests needs to be involved to

:29:55.:29:59.

help combat that threat. You say all that, and it may be true, but at a

:30:00.:30:05.

lot of people forget is not. If it is a Barry caliphate, if you think

:30:06.:30:18.

we need to step up, we should not -- what is the point? The point is to

:30:19.:30:23.

make sure we stop their advantage in Iraq and, working with the Iraqi

:30:24.:30:31.

National Army and the Peshmerga, we will restore the authority of the

:30:32.:30:35.

Iraqi government across the whole of the territory and minty and the

:30:36.:30:40.

territorial integrity of Iraq. That is important and that will help

:30:41.:30:44.

stability and help security and that will help keep our streets safe as

:30:45.:30:46.

well. Today's recall of Parliament comes

:30:47.:30:52.

slap-bang in between Labour and the Conservative's autumn party

:30:53.:30:54.

conferences. It also happens to be the start

:30:55.:30:55.

of UKIP's conference at Doncaster Racecourse - prompting senior UKIP

:30:56.:30:58.

figures to suggest that David Cameron had timed the recall to push

:30:59.:31:01.

their party out of the headlines. In a moment I'll be talking to

:31:02.:31:04.

UKIP's deputy leader about the party's

:31:05.:31:07.

fresh policy announcements on tax. First though, Giles Dilnot reports

:31:08.:31:10.

on UKIP's growing hopes of success UKIP's day at the races is not a

:31:11.:31:24.

conference of standing still. This is a party that thinks it's made

:31:25.:31:29.

politics a four-horse race and is galloping with gusto to embarrass

:31:30.:31:34.

its bigger thoroughbred rivals. Its winning projection is - on On the

:31:35.:31:39.

east coast of Kent, on the he is Stoury. I think they are realistic.

:31:40.:31:42.

If you take those seats and some of the others across the south-east and

:31:43.:31:45.

into Essex, I think realistically, probably 20. That buoyant mood

:31:46.:31:50.

belies a gamble. Can they truly breakthrough? Can they, as they

:31:51.:31:54.

boast, hurt Labour, too? Pockets we have had in the past. I think you

:31:55.:31:58.

will see whole swathes joining together. There is a real

:31:59.:32:00.

revolution. They have to be frightened. They know they are. So,

:32:01.:32:07.

how many UKIP MPs might there be? Or will their much-vaunted earthquake

:32:08.:32:11.

be no more than staggering into second and disappointk the thousands

:32:12.:32:15.

they claim to speak for. In -- disappointing. In any generation the

:32:16.:32:22.

stakes are high. UKIP's opponents say they ared grand standing if they

:32:23.:32:30.

think they are going -- athey are grand standing if think they are

:32:31.:32:32.

they are going to threaten government. They say they are grown

:32:33.:32:37.

up. Part of being a grown-up party is understanding, it doesn't matter

:32:38.:32:41.

how much ambitious you have n a first past the post system, you have

:32:42.:32:47.

to be realistic. -- UKIP has approached a threshold in its

:32:48.:32:50.

approach to the general election. It is more realistic about what it can

:32:51.:32:54.

achieve. It is no longer talking about 40-seats plus, it is talking

:32:55.:32:59.

about the region of five to eight seats. Even that is a little high

:33:00.:33:03.

but it is plausible they will walk away from the general election with

:33:04.:33:08.

around three to five seats. That is That's a hard message it get across

:33:09.:33:13.

to a party impatient and enthusiastic and some say - why

:33:14.:33:17.

crush that feeling? Lets gae back to May of this year, in terms of the --

:33:18.:33:24.

let's go back. In terms of the proportion of votes we had and we

:33:25.:33:28.

were the lead party in terms the European elections. I don't think

:33:29.:33:31.

any party would be acting responsibly, if they tried to push

:33:32.:33:37.

down and say - that is no longer worth generating, innovating and

:33:38.:33:42.

trying to capture. The big fear of UKIP is coming out with the general

:33:43.:33:46.

election, with something like 15% of the vote and a lot of second places,

:33:47.:33:50.

not being able to go over the tlien get the seats. Having said that, the

:33:51.:33:55.

big message coming down from high in UKIP to grassroots' activists is -

:33:56.:34:00.

be realistic. I was at a session this afternoon where an organiser

:34:01.:34:03.

said to activist said - don't worry about losing the seat in 2015. Think

:34:04.:34:08.

about 2020. What might boost the maths right now, of course, would be

:34:09.:34:12.

proving its threat to Labour in a by-election. Of course, the question

:34:13.:34:16.

going around is - what are the odds on another Tory dark horse waiting

:34:17.:34:21.

to defect to their stable, especially if they burst on to the

:34:22.:34:25.

political track to ride roughshod over the start of the Tories'

:34:26.:34:31.

conference next week. UKIP's deputy leader, Paul Nuttal

:34:32.:34:34.

joins us right now. Welcome back. How many seats is UKIP

:34:35.:34:39.

aiming to win at the general election in May? I don't know. How

:34:40.:34:45.

many are you hoping for? It is a long time in politics. We don't

:34:46.:34:50.

know. What we cannot do, as we have in the past, where we have a scatter

:34:51.:34:54.

gun approach where we spread our resources and money thinly right

:34:55.:34:58.

across the country. We have to target sensibly. There has been a

:34:59.:35:04.

lot of region into what our target seats should be. We will be

:35:05.:35:07.

ploughing people and money into those seats. On a good day I think

:35:08.:35:11.

we could do well and send people back to the House of Commons. On a

:35:12.:35:15.

good day - presumably Clacton will be one of them and presumably the

:35:16.:35:20.

seat that Nigel Farage will stand will be another, that's two. Are you

:35:21.:35:23.

thinking much beyond that? Absolutely. We are thinking well

:35:24.:35:29.

more than two. How many more? Jo, if you look at the places where UKIP

:35:30.:35:35.

has done well in the council elections and where we now have

:35:36.:35:38.

bridge heads, right up the east coast of the country, I think there

:35:39.:35:42.

are a good number of seats ready to go UKIP next year. OK, so talking

:35:43.:35:47.

about ten seats, maybe? Well, possibly. It could even be more. At

:35:48.:35:51.

the moment we are fighting a by-election in Middleton and Heywood

:35:52.:35:55.

and making serious in-roads into the Labour vote there. Who knows, as I

:35:56.:35:59.

say, a year is a long time in politics. I know you are going to

:36:00.:36:04.

say I'm talking about a proper politician now, but I will not make

:36:05.:36:07.

predictions. You are becoming part of the establishment now. Please

:36:08.:36:12.

don't say that. One of your new policies is to scrap all green

:36:13.:36:17.

taxes, is that correct? Yes. What green taxes do, in essence, they

:36:18.:36:21.

hurt the poorest in society. You just look at one of the campaigns

:36:22.:36:26.

that we ran in the European elections. We equate that green

:36:27.:36:31.

taxes are putting around ?450 own energy bills across the country. It

:36:32.:36:37.

hurts pensioners, students and the unemployed T doesn't hurt rich

:36:38.:36:40.

people. We want to do away with that. -- it doesn't hurt. We want to

:36:41.:36:45.

set out a fairer tax system for the country. Tell me, what counts in

:36:46.:36:49.

yours and UKIP's minds as a green tax. Give me the list of green taxes

:36:50.:36:53.

you are going to scrap? Well, you know, you will have to wait for

:36:54.:36:58.

those announcements this afternoon, well from Patrick O'Flynn at the

:36:59.:37:01.

movement we are talking about a lot of Brussels regulations that comes

:37:02.:37:06.

through at the moment. We had the issues of carbon capture and that.

:37:07.:37:11.

We want to see a country where tax is fairer, where we can lift every

:37:12.:37:16.

one on minimum wage out of taxation altogether and help the squeezed

:37:17.:37:20.

middle. We will do that by raising the 40p threshold to 55,000. We will

:37:21.:37:25.

put more money in people's pockets. We know people know how to spend

:37:26.:37:28.

their own money, better than any government. That's clear. What is

:37:29.:37:33.

not is what you are talking about in terms of scrapping green taxes. If

:37:34.:37:37.

you want a fair regime, people will want to know what you have to

:37:38.:37:41.

include. You may not know specifics. Will you include air passenger duty

:37:42.:37:46.

in one of your taxes to be scrapped? You will have to listen to Patrick

:37:47.:37:50.

this afternoon, who will announce all these things. At the moment we

:37:51.:37:54.

are showing, we are... But, Paul, your pledge. I will have to

:37:55.:37:59.

interrupt you. But, Jo, Jo, we know that green taxes hurt the poorest in

:38:00.:38:04.

society, they push up energy bills. So are you getting rid of all of

:38:05.:38:08.

them? We want to put money on people's pockets. It is on the front

:38:09.:38:13.

page of your website. You are the deputy leader, as I introduced you.

:38:14.:38:16.

You should know how much we are talking b how much the Treasury will

:38:17.:38:22.

lose in tax receipts and which green taxes are you talking about? --

:38:23.:38:27.

talking about. Hang on, we have spoken about this in

:38:28.:38:30.

talking about. Hang on, we have election. We have said it is putting

:38:31.:38:35.

on ?450 on everyone's energy bills, and hurting the poorest in society

:38:36.:38:40.

most. OK, you are not talking about air passenger duty? Well, again, I'm

:38:41.:38:47.

in the too sure about that. You will have tolies listen to Patrick this

:38:48.:38:51.

afternoon. It is worth nearly ?3.5 billion a year to the Treasury. It

:38:52.:38:54.

depends what your definition of a green tax is. Accord together office

:38:55.:39:00.

of national statistics, it is a tax on petrol or passenger flight that

:39:01.:39:05.

has a proven negative impact on the environment. To till, in total,

:39:06.:39:09.

according to the ONS, based on Treasury figures, the amount of

:39:10.:39:13.

money the Treasury gets is ?43 billion. Are you getting rid of all

:39:14.:39:17.

of that? Well, actually that can be evened off by doing away with HS2

:39:18.:39:23.

altogether. What, ?43 billion? Let me make this point. We can raise

:39:24.:39:28.

money by doing away by 85% of foreign aid which we are giving to

:39:29.:39:32.

countries like India, China and Brazil which has overtaken us in the

:39:33.:39:35.

league of economic powers. We can leave the European Union. There is

:39:36.:39:39.

another ?10 billion per year. The money is there. We want to put that

:39:40.:39:42.

money back into people's pockets and look after our own people for once.

:39:43.:39:47.

I thought that money, the ?10 billion you talked about, from

:39:48.:39:51.

leaving the EU and the ?9 billion spent on foreign aid was going to

:39:52.:39:56.

pay for your tax changes for your scrapping of inheritance tax and

:39:57.:40:02.

UKIP is planning to scrap Taj on the minimum wage t couldn't also cover,

:40:03.:40:14.

?43 billion of green taxes. -- crappage planning to crap.

:40:15.:40:19.

We can raise money by taking off the rich. We will call for a Treasury

:40:20.:40:23.

commission into looking at raising VAT to 25% for luxury items. So if

:40:24.:40:28.

you are going out and buying a car, say over ?75,000 or you are buying a

:40:29.:40:33.

bag over ?1,000, of course we are looking to put 5% of VAT on that, to

:40:34.:40:38.

ensure it is rich people paying the taxes and not poor people. Can you

:40:39.:40:41.

tell me how much scrapping tax on those earning the minimum wage will

:40:42.:40:46.

cost? About ?12 billion. And that's going to be covered also by leaving

:40:47.:40:51.

the EU and the foreign aid budget being scrapped s that right? Well,

:40:52.:40:56.

actually, Jo -- is that right? Well, actually, if we left the

:40:57.:40:59.

European Union, we would be far better off. I give you an example.

:41:00.:41:04.

Certain esteemed think tanks estimate that being in the European

:41:05.:41:10.

Union is costing us ?100 billion per annum, and that's complying with EU

:41:11.:41:14.

directives and regulations. A Common Agricultural Policy that forces up

:41:15.:41:17.

the price of food. A Common Fisheries Policy that has halved our

:41:18.:41:23.

fishing industries since the 1970s. We could save ?100 billion by coming

:41:24.:41:29.

out of organisation. . Do you think all this sounds like it is costed. I

:41:30.:41:36.

can't get detail? It is not remotely costed. UKIP is in the process of

:41:37.:41:42.

doing a strange pivot. They are trying to get their votes now from

:41:43.:41:50.

Labour voters, rs. They are a state-stripping welfare-cutting

:41:51.:41:52.

party. They are trying to find a means to present that in a way they

:41:53.:41:56.

can take votes from the Labour Party. If it doesn't add up or make

:41:57.:42:00.

sense it is because inherently it doesn't make sense. By pushing

:42:01.:42:04.

pressure on Labour, Labour will be worried. The reason it does make

:42:05.:42:09.

sense is an emotional rather than practical one. The far right always

:42:10.:42:13.

does well in times of difficulty because they make everything sound

:42:14.:42:17.

very simple. So they are like - everything is to do with the EU or

:42:18.:42:22.

immigration or both. Everything can be solved with if we pull away from

:42:23.:42:26.

the rest of the world and stop spending money on foreign aid. Now

:42:27.:42:29.

there will be Labour voters who won't look at the nitty gritty of

:42:30.:42:33.

which taxes they are talking about and will think - yes, a lot of our

:42:34.:42:37.

problems are because Westminster is unresponsive to normal British

:42:38.:42:40.

people and too responsive to the rest of the world. That is the

:42:41.:42:45.

emotional position. I can see why they are pushing T what I think is

:42:46.:42:52.

unfortunate for them... -- pushing T what is unfortunate for them is they

:42:53.:42:57.

sound as obfuscating as the rest of the politicians, which is why people

:42:58.:43:01.

liked them. You have spoken about immigration. You have spoken about

:43:02.:43:05.

it. You said - pull up the draw bridge. No-one is talking about

:43:06.:43:09.

pulling up any draw bridge. What we are talking about here is having a

:43:10.:43:13.

points-based system, like Australia, where we can choose who we want and

:43:14.:43:17.

who we don't want to come into the country. We can look at areas in the

:43:18.:43:22.

job market where people need to come and fill these places. What we don't

:43:23.:43:26.

want is a whole deluge of people coming with low skills who put

:43:27.:43:29.

British people out of work and drive down wages. You add to the bill

:43:30.:43:33.

there and talk about the welfare bi. The welfare bill goes up as a result

:43:34.:43:37.

of unfetterred, uncontrolled immigration. Paul, before we say

:43:38.:43:42.

goodbye to you, can you clear up for us, what is UKIP's official policy

:43:43.:43:48.

on British air strikes against ISIS in Iraq. Nigel Farage says he

:43:49.:43:53.

doesn't sport plan to launch air strikes with the Americans and we

:43:54.:43:57.

heard from the deputy Chairman saying she would support bombing in

:43:58.:44:01.

Iraq. Who is right? Well, if I was an MP there today I would vote

:44:02.:44:04.

against air strikes. I tell you why - Audi Arabia have one of the

:44:05.:44:08.

biggest Air Forces in the world, Turkey has one of the biggest

:44:09.:44:12.

standing armies. This is an issue for the Middle East to sort out

:44:13.:44:17.

itself. Bombing doesn't work. Is that UKIP's policy? The fact is that

:44:18.:44:24.

ISIS have made significant gains while America has been bombing for

:44:25.:44:28.

the past seven weeks. It is tokenism. I would be voting against.

:44:29.:44:34.

That's UKIP's official policy. Susan Evans is wrong. Well Nigel Farage,

:44:35.:44:38.

the leader of the party has made this clear, where he stands I'm the

:44:39.:44:42.

deputy, I stand behind him. If we were both MPs, we would be voting

:44:43.:44:47.

against air strikes today. We don't want to see mission creep and

:44:48.:44:50.

British boots on the ground which would eventually happen. That's

:44:51.:44:53.

official UKIP policy. All right. Thank you.

:44:54.:44:58.

Let's get back to the debate in the House of Commons

:44:59.:45:01.

on air strikes against Islamic State militants in Iraq.

:45:02.:45:03.

Here's some more of what's been said.

:45:04.:45:05.

Countries in the region have to take ownership of this battle because

:45:06.:45:10.

ISIL threatens them all. The elephant in the room, for me,

:45:11.:45:15.

remains Syria. ISIL will never be defeated if it is constantly allowed

:45:16.:45:19.

to regroup from its Syrian base. Without either UN or Syrian covered

:45:20.:45:25.

authorisation, air strikes in Syria may be illegal, although they could

:45:26.:45:31.

well be justified under international law. UN air strikes

:45:32.:45:40.

will not be granted without Assad and Vladimir Putin's agreement,

:45:41.:45:45.

maybe President Rouhani as well. I agree it is artificial to divide the

:45:46.:45:53.

problems. There is no doubt that ISIS has to be defeated in both

:45:54.:46:02.

countries. Given that one of the principles of counterinsurgency is

:46:03.:46:06.

to deny the enemy a home base, isn't it essential that we back the

:46:07.:46:09.

American effort in Syria? Otherwise, we will never defeat them in Iraq.

:46:10.:46:14.

For people to suggest we cannot go to Syria is tying our hands behind

:46:15.:46:19.

our backs. I agree. President Obama has been open that he is going into

:46:20.:46:27.

this alliance to launch attacks on Syria and Iraq and it is quite

:46:28.:46:32.

unrealistic to proceed on any other basis. There will be a lot said

:46:33.:46:39.

today about military action and I make it clear that I support the

:46:40.:46:42.

terms of the motion. Personally I think it is rather minimalist and I

:46:43.:46:46.

have no doubt that in the future, we will have to return to this issue

:46:47.:46:57.

and we will have to debated again. When you have a UN resolution, you

:46:58.:47:07.

have to accept the reality that the prospect of a United Nations

:47:08.:47:09.

Security Council resolution is totally remote. Even putting one on

:47:10.:47:16.

the table would be a pointless exercise because of the attitude,

:47:17.:47:21.

undoubtedly to be taken, of Russia and possibly also by China. We can

:47:22.:47:30.

now talk to Diane Abbott and Gerald Towers. They join us from the Houses

:47:31.:47:37.

of Parliament. Diane Abbott, how will you vote today? I will vote

:47:38.:47:44.

against bombing Iraq. I realise that the images we have seen of

:47:45.:47:47.

beheadings and the awful massacre and genocide carried out has made

:47:48.:47:54.

people think we have to do something, but I think a joint

:47:55.:48:01.

bombing operation with America will not crash ISIS. In the end, it is a

:48:02.:48:08.

political issue and there is not a Western military solution. How will

:48:09.:48:13.

you vote and white? I will vote for the resolution, which I think Hazel

:48:14.:48:18.

blears was rightly described as pretty minimalist. I think the Prime

:48:19.:48:23.

Minister made a compelling case which I hope the public will take

:48:24.:48:27.

time to study. The reason I will be supporting his motion tonight and

:48:28.:48:30.

supporting British military intervention is that at the moment,

:48:31.:48:36.

ISIS, or ISIL, are threatening the integrity of Iraq. If Iraq were to

:48:37.:48:40.

be taken over by these people, it would be catastrophic not just for

:48:41.:48:43.

the region, but for the United Kingdom. We have evidence already

:48:44.:48:48.

from the ground forces that the intervention of the United States

:48:49.:48:51.

through their use of air power has been instrumental in helping them

:48:52.:48:56.

contain ISIS. Of course it does not deal with the wider problem of

:48:57.:48:59.

Syria, but the imperative of securing Iraq so that the new Prime

:49:00.:49:02.

Minister can get the political process underway which is so

:49:03.:49:08.

necessary to bring the units of Iraq together, that is why. Diane Abbott,

:49:09.:49:13.

does it not make a difference that Iraq has asked us to help them? It

:49:14.:49:17.

was at the request of the sovereign government. It is not just America

:49:18.:49:22.

we would be joining, we would be joining five other Arab nations in

:49:23.:49:27.

the region attacking ISIS. The fact that Iraq has asked us makes it like

:49:28.:49:33.

one, which has to be a consideration. What has threatened

:49:34.:49:39.

the integrity of Iraq is a corrupt and government which has driven

:49:40.:49:45.

Sunni Muslims towards ISIL. Unless you fix the political problem you

:49:46.:49:48.

will not get peace in the region. When we talk about arming the Kurds,

:49:49.:49:54.

they will fight ISIL in the short-term but in the long time,

:49:55.:49:58.

they want a Kurdish state and that involves dismembering not just

:49:59.:50:03.

Iraq, but Turkey and Syria. What makes you think, Gerald Horace, but

:50:04.:50:09.

airpower can do the job? -- Gerald Howarth. The Iraqi army is not in a

:50:10.:50:17.

state to fight, purse Maiga in the north, but not the Iraqis, and no

:50:18.:50:21.

one in the region is offering to help with air strikes, are they? --

:50:22.:50:28.

the Peshmerga in the north. In this region and given the weapons we

:50:29.:50:32.

have, airpower can provide the clinical strike necessary to support

:50:33.:50:36.

the troops on the ground. Efforts are being made... But where are the

:50:37.:50:42.

troops on the ground? 's efforts are being made to ensure the Iraqi army

:50:43.:50:46.

and the Peshmerga can provide the voice. I agree with Diane Abbott

:50:47.:50:50.

that military means will not resolve this problem alone. Let me make this

:50:51.:50:59.

point, it is terribly important to recognise the contribution that

:51:00.:51:02.

fellow Sunni countries are now making in in an attack on Sunni

:51:03.:51:11.

interests in ISIS. Saudi Arabia, the UAE, these are key allies with the

:51:12.:51:15.

UK and they are in there. Junior Lewis suggested they should be

:51:16.:51:18.

putting boots on the ground and I think that is the correct approach.

:51:19.:51:24.

But you might also see pigs flying over your head. Exactly. It is money

:51:25.:51:30.

from Saudi Arabia and money from the Gulf states that initially funded

:51:31.:51:35.

ISIL and as for the Iraqi troops, the Iraqi troops have proven

:51:36.:51:38.

themselves hopeless. More money has been spent on training Iraqi troops

:51:39.:51:42.

than any army in the world and they have folded. We got that, so what is

:51:43.:51:48.

the Diane Abbott plan to deal with ISIS? You have to talk to Iran. We

:51:49.:51:55.

are doing that. We need to step up the diplomatic pressure on Iran.

:51:56.:52:00.

Also, we need to put pressure on those elements within the Saudi and

:52:01.:52:06.

Gulf states which are funding ISIL. Only the region can solve this

:52:07.:52:12.

crisis. There is an overlying Sunni/ Shia split. There is a

:52:13.:52:21.

regional problem here and they are in the significant players in the

:52:22.:52:25.

region. In terms of political dialogue, they have to resolve that.

:52:26.:52:29.

But the immediate is to stop these people from pursuing their medieval

:52:30.:52:41.

barbarity. It is genocide and we have to stop Iraq from falling to

:52:42.:52:46.

them. That would be catastrophic for the region and catastrophic for us.

:52:47.:52:50.

Alongside that, the political negotiations have to go on. We have

:52:51.:52:56.

got that. We will bring it to an end on that unlikely agreement and let

:52:57.:52:59.

you both get back to the debate. Thank you.

:53:00.:53:00.

Time now to cast our eyes back over the past week in politics.

:53:01.:53:03.

Here's Eleanor with the week, in just sixty seconds.

:53:04.:53:06.

David Cameron took a troop of Tory MPs to Chequers to pacify

:53:07.:53:09.

disgruntled backbenchers over Scottish devolution and sort out

:53:10.:53:13.

This issue of fairness for England, as well as for Scotland, Wales,

:53:14.:53:20.

Northern Ireland, I think is now one that cannot be avoided.

:53:21.:53:25.

Ed Miliband admitted he forgot key sections

:53:26.:53:26.

of his Party conference speech - immigration and the deficit.

:53:27.:53:32.

If I did the speech again, it would definitely be in there.

:53:33.:53:37.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage showed his support for Europe,

:53:38.:53:41.

You, me, everybody should get behind Team Europe.

:53:42.:53:47.

The SNP's Nicola Sturgeon took the plunge

:53:48.:53:49.

and announced her bid to replace Alex Salmond as party leader.

:53:50.:53:54.

And the Prime Minister's going to apologise to the Queen

:53:55.:53:56.

after being caught on camera saying Her Majesty had purred down

:53:57.:54:00.

the phone when he told her the Scots had decided to stay in the U nion.

:54:01.:54:21.

Did it feel like Labour taking the fight to the country do defeat the

:54:22.:54:29.

Tories? No, it did not feel like that. Somebody described it

:54:30.:54:35.

yesterday as it seemed like the final meeting before the conference.

:54:36.:54:40.

They had all had such an amazing falling out, some cataclysmic fight,

:54:41.:54:44.

that had hamstrung them for the rest of the week. It wasn't just Ed

:54:45.:54:51.

Miliband. It was Andy Burnham, he fluffed everything. Rachel Reeves

:54:52.:54:55.

fluffed everything. Lisa Nandi was great but she is not in a cabal.

:54:56.:55:01.

Where they exhausted from Scotland? Was it true, that they were a bit

:55:02.:55:06.

dazed by having put all their effort into the referendum? It struck them

:55:07.:55:12.

existentially. The success of the yes campaign was a research and is

:55:13.:55:16.

of the left and the Labour Party could not ally with it or do

:55:17.:55:21.

anything with it. They could not like that fire under their own

:55:22.:55:23.

supporters, even though they would love that. They were kind of left in

:55:24.:55:32.

this very 90s position of trying to be the centre left, where all of the

:55:33.:55:37.

energy is in the left. They were outdone. What about the highlights?

:55:38.:55:42.

What was the speech of the Labour conference? Good lord, I do not know

:55:43.:55:47.

act smack the highlights were all low lights. -- I do not know act

:55:48.:55:55.

smack the speech about the NHS move people to tears. All anyone will

:55:56.:56:04.

remember the bad stuff, the forgotten passages of the speech and

:56:05.:56:08.

the weird insults to John Prescott. Just people careering around and

:56:09.:56:13.

getting nowhere. Zoe, you said it did rather conjure up the images of

:56:14.:56:19.

what are they going to do about English votes for English laws. What

:56:20.:56:24.

will they do? I do not think they have a clue. The whole line that

:56:25.:56:31.

these things have to be established contemporaneously so you cannot do

:56:32.:56:34.

deform max onto you have worked out what will happen to England, that is

:56:35.:56:41.

wrong. -- evil Max. David Cameron is just trying to pacify his back

:56:42.:56:51.

ventures. Was it just a trick? It is Labour's ten year over Scotland.

:56:52.:56:56.

Miliband needs to sit no, we pledged to the Scots and he needs to go for

:56:57.:57:08.

Cameron on that. He is nowhere. One Labour MP said to me at conference

:57:09.:57:12.

that he was surprised they had not thought of a strategy to deal with

:57:13.:57:17.

the tactic by the Tories after the no vote. Or any other strategy!

:57:18.:57:26.

Cameron was brittle on this. The fact that he came out of it not

:57:27.:57:30.

shaken, but straightaway going, well, I will bank that and fight for

:57:31.:57:37.

England, that was a sudden thing to do. I can imagine them being dazed,

:57:38.:57:42.

but this problem has been around for a generation. They should at least

:57:43.:57:47.

think about it. Which is why it may seem strange for David Cameron

:57:48.:57:50.

fighting for the union and then fighting for England. Does it

:57:51.:57:55.

matter, when he only has one Tory MP in Scotland? Is that it for a

:57:56.:58:00.

Scottish referendum campaigns? Tommy Sheridan said 2020, someone else

:58:01.:58:04.

said they will look at it legally, even with the 10% victory. When will

:58:05.:58:10.

combat? I should not think before ten years but in ten years they will

:58:11.:58:15.

be looking at serious opposition. The yes campaign was born by the

:58:16.:58:22.

kind of mobilisation of votes. Now those people are mobilised, I would

:58:23.:58:26.

be very surprised if they went back on it. It depends what the SNP does

:58:27.:58:32.

at the next Westminster election. If they store made the situation has

:58:33.:58:33.

changed. I'll be back on Sunday on BBC One

:58:34.:58:35.

at 11, broadcasting live from the Conservative party

:58:36.:58:39.

conference in Birmingham. We will be speaking to William

:58:40.:58:45.

Hague. And the Daily Politics will be back

:58:46.:58:47.

on monday at midday here on BBC Two.

:58:48.:58:52.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

Includes extensive coverage of the Commons debate on Air Strikes in Iraq.

With UKIP deputy leader Paul Nuttall.


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