29/10/2015 Daily Politics


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David Cameron's in Iceland making friends with some


But the leaders of Estonia and Finland say they've yet to hear


from the PM how exactly he wants to renegotiate Britain's membership


Mr Cameron insists his reform discussions are "going well".


We don't have the report but we do now have a date - ish -


for the publication of the Chilcott inquiry into the Iraq war.


Every five years in China, man, they have a development plan.


So man, China's one child policy has been abandoned.


We'll be finding what else is in their latest five year plan.


And how about a spot of dog whistle politics?


It's the Parliamentary Dog of the Year Awards again.


All that in the next hour and with us for the duration, businessman and


Now, first today, since we have a Lord in our midst,


let's talk about the Upper House and the events of Monday.


You voted against George Osborne's plan to reduce tax credits.


. I think that what George Osborne did was not thought through. He had


openly said in the election that they wanted to cut welfare, which is


fine and I do think welfare needs to be cut. I do believe in


fine and I do think welfare needs to welfare-to-work and I do think we


need to balance reduce our set and our deficit but


the way he did this, without taking into


the way he did this, without taking cuts on the poorest, was just so bad


it was not compassionate and also, putting it through, through a


statutory instrument was not the right way to do it. This is a


welfare matter but also right way to do it. This is a


matter T should have been in the Autumn


matter T should have been in the Statement, debated in the House of


Commons. If it was a finance Statement, debated in the House of


you shouldn't have been touching it at all. Did you have concerns that


the Lords was getting at all. Did you have concerns that


It was a tricky situation, because we had a constitutional matter.


Should we have taken part in this? Because it was a statutory


instrument we could. There was no Because it was a statutory


question about it. It is rare we voted on statutory instruments. It


only happened a handful of times in the last few years, last time was in


two 12. I think people felt strongly about it, it hasn't been done the


right way. George Osborne is a politically astute. I can't believe


he did this, after the budget, there he did this, after the budget, there


was no need to do it this way. You are a businessman, you have


was no need to do it this way. You tough decisions, not always popular.


Isn't that what Chancellors have to do taking decisions is one thing,


how you implement them. do taking decisions is one thing,


listen to people. Do you do it from an ivory tower or listen to people?


Do you take into account effects of your decisions, this could have been


phased in be and done your decisions, this could have been


that doesn't affect the poorest. the right thing in using its voice


and expertise. That's the right thing in using its voice


amazing expertise. He the right thing in using its voice


away to think the right thing in using its voice


we did, that the English came At the end of the show our guest


will give us the correct answer. We hope. For a change I know the


answer. It's day two of David Cameron's


visit to Iceland. He's meant to be making friends with


our Northern European neighbours. Our Political Editor,


Laura Kuensberg is in Rejkavik. Looks lovely. What is going on?


Well, David Cameron has been trying to show in the last couple of days


that he is, after trying to stay out of the fray, now really engaging in


this whole debate. That is a change of position, no doubt about it.


Because in recent months, while the campaign for out and in have been


getting busy, number ten have really wanted to hang back but this week


that's changed. He is trying to show progress. He has been warning about


the idea of having a looser relationship like Iceland and Norway


do, with the rest of the EU but I think maybe more than anything else,


number ten has been trying to show that he is actually doing something.


One of the criticisms that has been made at home is that there is not


really anything going on with the renegotiation, it is all a bit of


emperor's new clothes at the moment. Downing Street challenge that and


insist things are happening. And in fact Europe Minister, David living


tonne, said last night, that the technical talks were completely


complete: The difficulty with that is - when you talk to European


leaders here, the Finnish Prime Minister and the Estonian one, as we


have been doing in the last 24 hours, both said to me that they


were yet to see any real detail and that there haven't been any concrete


proposals put on the table. All of that matters, of course, not just


because David Cameron wants to look like he is in the right place, but


there is only a few weeks left before he said he'd actually put


those proposals into the public domain. Tricky times. Indeed and a


first for a British Prime Minister, I understand that there hasn't been


a British Prime Minister in recce Vic since Winston Churchill. I


presume that was during the war. What is it like there, tell us what


it is like? Well 1941 was the year. You are right, Churchill came here


during the Second World War. Second world summits, as you well know --


summits, as you well know, are odd affairs. And this is in that rather


strange tradition, partly because of where the summit is taking place.


This is the summit hotel, throughout the last couple of days, there have


been bemused glances and bemused exchanges between the tourists who


are here for a spot of whale watching or a strip around the


harbour, wrapped up, wand around like Michelin men and on the other


side you have the security men with earpieces in and leaders going about


their business. Compared to a summit in Brussels or the kinds of things


that happen in America or at G20 oer a big hardcore meeting like that.


This is a pretty relaxed and friendly affair, a bit like the


Icelanders themselves. Indeed they are. Don't go whale watching. That


seems to be a rather dangerous occupation these days. Try the hot


springs, you will enjoy them. With us now, the Conservative peer,


Martin Callanan, who used to be a member of the European Parliament,


and the UKIP MP, Douglas Carswell. Martin Callanan, how account Prime


Minister say the negotiations are going well when the people like the


leaders of Estonia and the Finns say they don't know what he wants? I


don't know what he wants. We have it in broad terms. But we haven't seen


the detail. Why don't we know what he wants? I think it is a good


question. And do you have a good answer? I think their view is that


they want to try and conclude negotiations in secret and not set


out their negotiating position too early but of course, nobody know


what is is on the table and we'll all look forward to seeing what it


is they are actually asking for when they publish the letter to the


European Council in November. You want Britain to leave the European


Union. Is this good news or bad news, for you, the way the Prime


Minister is going about it? I think it is pretty good news. I think many


undecided vote letters realise there is no fundamentally new deal on the


table and they are more lined to support leaving. -- voters will. Two


years ago when David Cameron announced the in-out referendum he


was framing it as a choice between leaving or a fundamentally new deal.


I think this week marks the moment at which the Prime Minister starts


to campaign for remaining in the EU, on current terms. He is more or less


given up on the idea of a new dee. He is using a combination of project


fear - saying you will be like Norway, as if it is the worst thing


in the world and on the other hand, suggesting we wouldn't have cheap


flights if we weren't in the EU. Both are nonsensical positions but


this is what the bottom of the barrel looks like in Downing Street


if you have no deal. With the Prime Minister deciding to come out


against the "Norwegian option" he is taking sides now. He said at one


stage he would rule nothing out. He has now ruled out the Norwegian


option. Why would you do that? I have no idea. I don't know anybody


arguing for the Norwegian option. Norway is the richest country of


Europe. It is a much sore semidetached option. It is by no


means perfect. They have a lot of problems. Nearly as bad as ours.


They have to accept a lot of the single market policies. But they are


not part of the Common Agricultural Policy, common farming 308cy, setts.


There are problems in the relationship but it doesn't seem to


do them harm. 70% of the population of Norway don't want to join as full


members T can't be that bad. Would you be happy to have a British


version. If we come out we won't copy Norway but it could provide a


template. Would you be happy with a British version of the Norwegian


relationship? I think it would present problems, particularly in


terms of services, financial services in particular and we would


need... Norway is covered by service, Switzerland isn't but


Norway S. The Norway model is a bad template. Norway is in the position


it is n because political elights wanted Norway to join and so as a


prelude to membership they went into the so-called waiting room for


Brussels membership. The people in Norway had more sense and their


politicians said no and they were left in an awkward position. Now if


they are in the position where five or six million can get preferential


terms. Think what we could do with we left and negotiated for a genuine


market accessed based relationship but without the red tape and


condition strants that come with being in the EU. What would be wrong


with that? I agree with Douglas, if we vote to leave we could probably


negotiate ourselves a better deal than Norway or Switzerland have


because of our relative size. But the problem s we wouldn't know until


we did leave. That's the problem. It depends what sort of goodwill is on


the other side, how difficult or awkward they want to be. Would, for


instance, the big question is - would access to the single market


necessarily result in accepting free movement, which is what many


people's problem is with Europe. It is a good point but let's bore in


mind last year we bought about #r50 billion pounds more stuff off the


Member States than they bought off us. They will not put protection


barriers there. They will not do that. Is the Prime Minister really


no longer neutral on this? All the signals we see is that he is going


to do his utmost to keep Britain in the European Union? I think that has


always been clear. I don't think he has made much secret of the fact


that fundamentally he wants to keep Britain in. Doesn't that weaken his


hand, then? That may be right position for a British Prime


Minister to say, that's not for me to decide. But if you are in an


negotiation, it is surely a mistake to send out signals to the other


side that basically - even if you give us next to nothing, I'm for


staying N. You start the negotiation which saying - please can we have


the concessions but don't worry we'll stay anyway, doesn't put you


in the position. But the trump card is the referendum. David Cameron


doesn't get to decide, I don't or Douglas doesn't. You do and everyone


else does, too. We have a vote. . . In the Lords. Do you not get a vote?


If I may, the two biggest developments that have happened in


the European Union over the past years is one the euro has proven to


be a disastrous thing t should never happened and slicked the migration


crisis is a huge problem. These two developments show that the European


Union, one, the free movement of people which I believe n we might


need to bring in with the free movement of people, passports check


between borders even if you are a European passport holder, you can


still have free movement and check passports but where the euro is


concerned that has proven the Europe project of an ever-moving forward


towards a United States of Europe is not going to happen and if David


Cameron can get an assurance, because there are many in Europe


right now who want to move towards that United States of Europe. That


is something we would never be prepared to go down. . I agree,


given immigration will be such an important issue it is worth bearing


in mind Iceland has a good situation with immigration. People can go to


Iceland for the skills they need. It works for migrants and Iceland. Why


don't we do that? It is the perception of outside world. To


countries like independentia, the United States, they all think for us


to be part of the European Union is important. The perception is very


important but on the other hand, I know that we are being hampered by


being part of the European Union by not being able to do free trade


deals. The EU-India free trade deal has stuck up for years and years, we


will never get that. On our own we would get there within months.


That's not what the American trade representative said today or


yesterday. He said America is moving to a free trade arrangement where


where it is doing deals with regional groups. It is just


completed one in the Pacific. It hopes to do one in Europe as well.


Although it is way behind the Pacific one. They are not so keen


any more to do by lateral deals. The State Department and Government


officials tend to like the European Union, it is a project created by


people like them to run humane economic social affairs Boyer his


Lordship makes a powerful point we. Could have a free trade agreement


with India. Isn't it absurd that Tata, a big investor in this


country, we don't have a free trade agreement with India. We could have


them if we leave the European Union. That's true but there are different


types. It is easy to have a free trade agreement with third world


country, India, China, on certain goods but we want banking services,


which is much more difficult to get. A It is surely inconceivable that


give the UK was outside the EU that it could not do a trade deal with


the USA? Absolutely. I would be interested to see if politicians


agree. Where would you rather be, Croydon or recce of it? Croydon but


Reykjavik is a wonderful place! If the ideal world would be for David


Cameron to go in there and renegotiate to see what the EU is


actually about. If he can do that and get an efficient Europe, all the


problems that the EU has, that and get an efficient Europe, all the


be a good situation. We can end on agreement with that.


So, a new timetable's been released for the long-awaited inquiry


into the Iraq war - predicting it will be made public


We don't have a date but we have a James Landale joins me now.


We don't have a date but we have a rough I hear. We could see it in the


summer of next year. -- date. There has been delays in the report and it


was originally set up when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister in 2009. It


heard its last evidence in February 2011 and yet we are still waiting.


What we now know is that we have something approaching a timetable,


if not a specific date, a letter sent by Sir John Chilcot to the


Prime Minister yesterday and published yesterday saying


Prime Minister yesterday and be finished by April and it will


then go to the security services to check there are no inadvertent


breaches of national security in the published document which will run to


2 million words and the expectation is that it will be published in June


or July next year. I cabinets nine week window when it will be


published. A huge amount of frustration expressed in reaction


about what many people see as a further delay. I will tell you what


the Prime Minister and former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, had to say


after we hear from the Speaker of the House of Commons who had this to


say in The Chamber. I think it is important on behalf of the House


whether it concerns him or not, that Sir John should be aware that there


is a very real sense of anger and frustration across the House about


the disservice that has been done. That anger reflected by some of the


families of the Jewish servicemen who were killed in Iraq, and by the


current Prime Minister and Tony Blair. -- British. David Cameron


said he is still frustrated that it is on this existing timetable and is


willing to provide more support in terms of staff from Whitehall to


speed the process up. Tony Blair responded on his website and said


that he and other contributors to the enquiry are not to blame for


this process where contributors were given draft copies of the report,


where they were criticised, offering them the opportunity to respond to


that. Tony Blair said it is not right to blame that for the delay.


He only found out this year about the contents and would reply by the


summer. He said there are other reasons why this took so long and it


is not all down to me. Thank you. We are joined by someone from the Daily


Mail. I went to the BBC, I said that Sir John Chilcot is clearly five


years late, most of the evidence has been made to the public, we can go


through the testimony to Chilcot, and we were able to answer the


question is very clearly. Do you get the impression that we now know the


date? You get the feeling that a gun was put to Chilcot's head,


metaphorically. Absolutely. There was a report that it would be


delayed until 2017. It was reported in the Sunday Times that the whole


thing had errors in the report, they had not understood how the military


works, so poor old Sir John Chilcot who is getting on now, well into his


70s, one of the panel is guides while... Some of the people whose


sons and daughters were lost died in Iraq as well. Hundreds of thousands


of deaths in Iraq. Their parents have died and they have been waiting


for this bug an important point. It is an outrage. The last British


soldier left Basra, left Iraq, in 2007. This report will be nine years


late to stop Sir John Chilcot said that it would happen in 2011, six


years after he said it would appear. This statement from Tony Blair is


amazing. He got the report on him in January and took until the summer.


He sat on it for six months, he said there was not a problem. A major


problem! Six months he sat on it. Has the problem not been with the


Maxwell eyes Asian process? The lawyers who were involved in the


original enquiry were not sat next to Tony Blair, lawyers have become


involved in this process. -- Maxwellisation. Chilcot should not


have allowed that. He knew of the criticisms. Actually, we are going


to go ahead anyway. He should not have got involved and before then he


got himself distracted by Downing Street with the crucial letters


between President Bush and Tony Blair and said we would publish them


anyway, any Downing Street wants to censor it, they can do it. He has


been dithering, and... John Chilcot? Yes. What he added with


debt? Absolutely. Let's look at the people on the panel. John Chilcot is


deeply embedded in the establishment. -- Wattie out of his


depth? -- was he. You had one person who was completely clueless, way out


of her depth. A very experienced person. She was very out of her


depth. The 1 person who made some sense was the former British


ambassador to Moscow. A low-grade panel. OK but you have always had


strong views on the Iraq war, you were opposed to it, you were against


it. Is there anything that changes your mind by doing this enquiry?


What was extraordinary, going into it, was the weight of the testimony


that Tony Blair represented to Parliament. I had a long


conversation with Hans Blix in which he said to me that it wasn't just


the notorious dossier of December 2002 but also in the famous last


speech of Tony Blair to Parliament, he misrepresented what Hans Blix had


found, and the weapons inspectors. I then had a conversation with Sir


Stephen Wall, the Prime Minister's European private secretary, in which


he witnessed Tony Blair and Alistair Campbell telling lies to the Sun


newspaper. That was in order to set up President Chirac. What is


interesting is how the weight of testimony was knowingly misled by


the British Prime Minister of the day, and also that the testimony --


that the testimony of the war is illegal. All advisers advised that


the war was illegal. I said at the end of my long conversation with


Hans Blix, can I just summarise what you said to me? You are saying that


the Prime Minister misrepresented the facts about the war to the


British people in order to sell an illegal war. Yes, I am a diplomat, I


do not use such language but essentially what you are saying is


true. But he is not a lawyer. He is very experienced. 27 Foreign Office


lawyers... Yes, but... Yes, at 27 -- all 27 Foreign Office lawyers...


That is very interesting but opinion is so polarised on the subject of


Chilcot, I would suggest that both sides will be trying to reinforce


what they already think. It is not the first time a report like this


has taken a long time. It is frustrating. For the families it


needs to happen quickly. At least we now have a date and it will happen


in the summer. Before this, it could have been 2017 but at least it is


next year. It is the families who need to know but also everybody


needs to learn the lessons. When we debated intervening in Syria when


Parliament was recalled, all the debate was about going back to


lessons learned in Iraq. If we had the Chilcot report, we would have


been better position. We need it now. The lessons needs to be learned


quickly. OK. 8pm, BBC Radio four, tonight.


Now, just over an hour ago China announced that it was to end


Women will now be able to have two children.


The decision was all part of China's next Five Year Plan,


the country's 13th, and it looks a little different.


Hey, have you heard what is going on in China?


There you go, the Chinese propaganda department really watching too much


Sesame Street the state! Write-down to American accent! -- these days.


With us now is the Diane Wei Liang, who's an author and commentator


The 1 child policy now being scrapped, that is because China now


has a demographic problem, it is running out of people. Not exactly


running out of people. It is running out of young people, and China has


an inverted pyramid which means you have grandparents and parents who


are now living longer and longer but with fewer young people to support


them. Exactly. And the endless supplies of Labour has been drying


up? Yes. The costs are high now. That is not only part of


demographics but the Labour costs have risen. This touchy-feely, nice


cartoon that we saw, is part of that not to hide the fact that the real


go-go years, of 10% plus growth, they are over now? China will grow


strongly as you expect a developing economy to do that no double-digit


growth any more. With China's current economic size, you would not


expect to grow to double digits. It is a new phase, about 7%. At that


growth, we are looking at doubling output in ten years, and there is


still a massive output economically at 7%. Today's growth equals 14% in


2011, said China is growing very fast. The calculation is I have seen


have suggested the growth rate is between four and 5% but the real


significance of this five-year plan is that it marks the move of China


from being a manufacturing lead smokestack industry economy to a


more and more service consumer led economy.


That's right and while manufacturing had been flowing and the service


injury growing, it was 18% last year, now service industry counts


for half of China's GDP. A bigger share of GDP than manufacturing now?


It is moving that direction. This new five-year plan in itself is also


slightly different. Not only in the way that you see, you know, the


little commercial here, it is very Xi. And President Xi is sort of rock


'n' roll President in China, believe it or not, he might not appear so


when he visited the Queen last week but this plan is a little different


from the last one, in that the economic element of it is going to


be only 10%. 90% of the plan is going to focus on social reforms,


political reforms, environmental issues. And that, again, brings in


the One Child Policy, part of the social reform that will be pushed


through in this plan. He is not a Liberal is he? He has been tougher


since he became President. There has been a tougher crackdown on human


rights' issues and dissidents under him than his predecessor? There are


two points - Xi is a politically strong man. He is he has incredible


power, because of his background and also because of his political


astuteness and also he is pro business. He is anti-corruption


which has touched on lots of high level politicians, CEOs of


state-owned introprizes. By in large it is all private sectors which


accounts for 80% of China's output so he is doing this, in one way to


clean up the party. Let's remember the Chairman of state-owned


introprizes, they are all party members. -- enterprises. At the same


time he is trying to drive the business side. If China is moving to


more of a consumer-driven, service economy, less of an export-led


manufacturing economy, who are the winners and losers? I would suggest


the emerging market commodity producers are losers because China


won't need as many commodities, they are in trouble. Germany is in a bit


of trouble because they are the big exporters of manufactured products


and there is a huge opportunity for Britain, because we are world


leaders in services and China will need more services? That's


absolutely true. When you saw the steel plans, closing in the UK and


-- the steel plants closing in the UK and it was the commodity, the


demand, re-Will for reduction and steel plants are closing in China


but the UK is in the perfect foegs trade with China for the next 20


years and that's what China is interested N -- perfect position to


trade with China. And what last week was about. Here is the big change.


When Mr Cameron became leader of the Tory Party and leader, he talked


about the big relationship Britain was going to have with India. That


is not happening. The big relationship is with China and how


Mr Mhrodi will be treated will be a few carpets left than the Chineseth


President. Our Prime Minister sees the future much more with China an


India. I don't see that. When we saw the plan, it reminded me of India


which has five-year plans, the hangover frot socialist days. But


India is exactly the opposite where China is concerned. India's


population is increasing. I have always thought the One Child Policy


has been, in my view not the right policy, it is inhumane, cause the


problems, and it is not right. I'm pleased it it is done away with but


in India it'll take over by 2005-30. India has a consumer-driven growth.


Independentia, the opposite of China, targeting 25% of the GDPs to


be manufacturing and wants to grow manufacturing. I think there is a


huge opportunity for Britain with China and India. All I can tell you


is dealing with the Foreign Office, all they want to talk about is


China. . After Mr Mhodi's visit, that will change.


The Office for National Statistics have this morning released new


They show Britain to be both growing and ageing.


On current trends we are expected to overtake France and become


the second largest country in Europe by 2030 and become the largest


This is on present trends. That will overtake Germany.


The UK's population is projected to increase


by 9.7 million over the next 25 years, reaching 70 million by 2027


The population of England is projected to increase


The vast majority of the increase. #12k3w4r that's less than ten years


away. -- that's less than ten years away and will increase by


The populations of the other UK countries will grow at


51% of the population rise over the next 25 years is expected to be


The population is also projected to continue ageing


That doesn't seem a will the but means a big difference.


And by that time, more than 1 in 12 of the population


By 2039 there are projected to be 370 people of pensionable age per


1,000 people of working age - up from from 310 in 2014.


You see the trend. Growing population but also more pensioners


as a percentage of the overall population. With us now, we have a


journalist from the Guardian and an Conservative MP. . We have an


growing segment of the population. And there are other statistics out


in the last 24 hours showing how incomes are rising. We need to in


some way pay for all of that. If we didn't have younger people coming


into the population then those figures would be completely skewed


in another way. Would they be worse in a sense? They would be worse. A


higher percentage of pensionable age. Exactly. Good thing? With


population comes power, if you handle it right. We will be the


biggest country by population in Europe, by the middle of the


searching tri? ? This is a very good sign for the future of our country.


--. Search tri. I I gree with that point. We are in a strong position


and the growing population means we are bringing in more young people,


which helps to balance the age of our population which is a good


thing. Do you have any concerns and many were expressed to me this


morning on Twitter. Let me put it like this - it is all because of


immigration. It is not all because of immigration. I understand that


but I'm acting as a reporter here. Is this something we should be


concerned about, or is it a plus? Well, the question is whether people


in this country feel in control of what is happening. And if


politicians are promising things like cutting net migration from


hundreds of thousands of to tens of thousands which sounds like a 90%


cut but at the time the promise was made it would only be a 50% cut and


then they failed to achieve that and promised the again, thisp isn't


going to make people feel confident in politicians' promises. It isn't


always the case. There are many things driving it but there is free


movement in the European Union. Whether people like it or not it is


now inevitable that the face of this country is going to change. Is


rising populations are going to be disproportionately from recent


arrivals, from new arrivals, from first, second, third generation,


sons and daughters of first, second, third generation,


going to be, they are the growing bit of our population? Really


going to be, they are the growing moment, the problem is we are not


catering for non-retired people, if you want, very well at all. We


already know about housing. I mean we have had dozens and dozens of


people talk about housing this year I'm sure with you and how much it is


an issue. And we have issues with childcare and schooling. We haven't


built enough schools. We are not catering for the growing segment of


our population. any nacsent economic benefits almost


from the very any nacsent economic benefits almost


issue. Isn't that an issue which any nacsent economic benefits almost


politicians on both sides of the House have let us down, and


politicians on both sides of the step up to the crease on, that


people can welcome a step up to the crease on, that


population, but it means step up to the crease on, that


more schools, we need more step up to the crease on, that


homes above all - step up to the crease on, that


that, have failed news that step up to the crease on, that


Failed is a bienry thing. I think there has been some failure. . I


think we need to do much better. It needs more investment. As a


think we need to do much better. It class. We have to do better. But the


Government is pushing the homes class. We have to do better. But the


issue now more strongly. What is remarkable under a Conservative


Government, you would have thought, horrors of horrors, the level of


housing ownership has gone down. Which usually defines a Tory voter.


It has gone down from 69% of the population to 64% of the population


owning their own homes, it is terrible. There has been


owning their own homes, it is in buy-to-let. Should Britain


rejoice that its population is growing so quickly? I mean many


people - you are too young - but in the '60s and '70, the


people - you are too young - but in this nation was of decline. Senior


civil servants would talk about the nature of decline, people were


queueing to leave. The orderly nature of decline. One used


civilised to me. It is a huge change. It is a change, if you look


at it positively it is xenlt. What is challenging is the be Bernard's


point, the Government setting ridiculous targets for migration. We


are three times of it. We need an immigration policy where we are


encouraging the skilled people this country needs to support the ageing


population. For example, the Indian restaurant industry, the curry


restaurant, they cannot bring in the chefs. The tech any, there has been


a list signed by the Who's Who saying - please allow us to bring


in. I thought you were allowed to bring them in. They are having


trouble. It is very discriminatory. With students and academics, 30% of


our academicsing are foreign. Theresa May's attitude towards


international students have shocking, she wants them to leave


the day after they graduate. Where does she say that? Because we are in


the European Union we have a discriminatory policy. We let in


anybody from within the European Union, even shob has just bought an


eastern European passport, even if they are a national of other country


they have all the rights of an etch U citizen and we have Draconian


controls against people and countries outside the European


Union, even if we want their skills. Except that immigration from non-EU


countries is also way above 100,000. That's true. With you Bo with you we


keep including international students within the immigration


figures, which is ridiculous. We have a fairer and more humane


immigration policy if we had uniform control over who decides. We need to


take back that control. We will be returning to this, to Europe, that


is, and to our population. Thank you to both of you coming N


Now if you like a good chicken tika masala and a pint,


chances are you've tasted the tipple our Guest of the Day invented.


Karan Bilimoria founded Cobra beer in 1989.


An aspiring entrepreneur, he saw the need for a beer that was less gassy


Cobra claims to be as refreshing as the former,


And now, the company supplies over 98% of the UK's Indian


That's called a monopoly. Get the commission on to him


Other beers, I'd like to point out, are available.


Our Ellie went to speak to our Guest of the Day in his office.


By day, he runs a successful beer company,


There is one word that sums up a entrepreneur.


You have to have the guts to do it in the first place


but also the guts to stay with it when others would give up.


I nearly lost my business three times over the


years and each time, getting through those crises was a challenge and


bouncing back from them and learning from them and continuing to grow.


Karan Bilimoria was born in Hyderabad in the '60s.


He went to university there at the ender age of 16.


He then came over to London to train as an accountant, before graduating


It was there he first came up with the idea of Cobra beer.


Britain was the sick man of Europe, when entrepreneurship was looked


down upon and conjured up images of Delboy second-hand car salesmen.


Entrepreneurship now in this country is celebrated.


There is huge support for entrepreneurs.


There are huge networks of entrepreneurs.


There is finance available that I didn't have,


There is the internet which didn't exist 25 years ago


In many ways, there is no better time to be


The England I came to three decades ago, compared to the UK today,


this is a country that has improved in leaps


Karan Bilimoria, CBE, became Lord Bilimoria in 2006.


In Britain we have a lot going for us.


We are less than 1% of the world's population but have the


And he has strong opinions on how the place he now calls home,


We have an immigration policy over the last


five years, under a Home Secretary, Theresa May, that I think is


damaging our economy, damaging our universities and I say this openly.


I find Theresa May's immigration policies economically illiterate.


Away from showing his strength in the Lords, he has branched out


in the world of tech and launched a new picture-sharing app.


A new challenge for someone who likes to win stuff.


And we're joined now by another British entrepreneur, Charlie


Mullins, who founded Pimlico Plumbers.


Is it a good country to do business? Undoubtably, absolutely brilliant.


Things are going from stronger to stronger, and the stronger the


economy is becoming. Better in your view? Undoubtably. What has changed?


The Tories getting youngsters into work. Was it not good doing business


under the last Labour government until the great crash? We nearly


went bust or we did go bust! That was more to do with sub-prime


mortgages in America. It was under Labour's watch. They just happened


to be in power. You telling me that there would not have been a crash if


the Tories were in power? The death as it may not have been as big but


we are onto a winner. Do you agree? Asked macro deficit. The Labour


government and publishing government have been pro-enterprise. The


networks and finances that exist, the support that exists,


entrepreneurialism is great now. Does that mean it is easier than


when you started out? When you started out, given the atmosphere


and hurdles in your way, you needed gut. Maybe not so much now? If there


is one word that defines being an entrepreneur, it it is guts. The


guts, you always need them, it is always going to be against all odds.


What is greatest technology, communications, travel. You can


start and think global from day one. We are thinking global immediately.


It may be a good place to do business for businessmen like


yourself that is it not a place where there is a low-wage economy?


Yes, I agree, I think we should increase wages. What is stopping


you? We are paying more than you do, Andrew! That is not a high


benchmark! What is the average salary of one of these people who


works in your van birthmark plumber? -- 150 grams is the top end,


anything from 80 grand. -- 150 grand. I have an apprenticeship? --


can I. I mean, I am not against what we are saying about students staying


or going, the most important thing is getting them into work and making


them pay tax. Did you advertise for French plumbers? ?125,000? Yes. Did


you run out of Polish plumbers? They are building London at the moment!


We would not have an Olympics without them! The salaries are


amazing but they are not the average. The latest figures suggest


this may be a good country to do business but there are many people,


particularly outside of London, on low wages. That is what the tax


credit argument is all about, they are not paid enough to bring up


families, they needs to be supplemented by tax. Although we are


doing well as an economy and encouraging entrepreneurism, or we


are lagging on productivity. The governments over the year not


invested enough in education and skills. -- years. The amount we


spend on a proportion of GDP is half that of America's. Research and


development and innovation, we invest very low compared to the EU.


South Korea spends double of what we do on this. We have to do this. That


will increase productivity and the wages and makers more popular. --


make us. We should be investing more on apprenticeships. Anyhow, you are


doing a great job. Oh, you're speaking to him! Thank you.


Now, doesn't time fly when you're having fun?


The nights are already drawing in, Halloween's just a couple


Bonfire night's next week, and there's just 56 days till Christmas.


Westminster Dog of the Year has come around AGAIN.


Never one to miss a beauty contest, our Giles checked out the runners


# Walking the dog. # Guests who is walking the dog?


# There comes a time in the Parliamentary year when they put


aside tax credit cuts, renewal of Trident is shelved, and


representatives of the mother of all parliaments get moments to say, oh,


look at that lovely dog! Can I just point out the serious bit? The hosts


do this event to celebrate not just all things dog but to promote


re-homing and rescuing. He lives on the outskirts of my constituency and


comes from a shelter and she is the office dog. She has


comes from a shelter and she is the personality which. You need


canning, and fashion plays a part. From Tweed to Willie jumpers. This


year came Carla. She has done a tour of Afghanistan, she searches for


explosives, she can find the parts to trigger explosives, and she is an


amazing animal. Her handlers are here today. It takes 16


amazing animal. Her handlers are train a dog out, and we are


showcasing the work they do. Admirable stuff from the dog, but


MPs will go to great lengths to take a lead and lick the opposition. It


seems doggy lobbying is a bone of contention. The do not


seems doggy lobbying is a bone of e-mail? It is a democracy and we


drew attention, and it is amazing the other entrants that followed in


drew attention, and it is amazing my wake. Does this kind of thing


work, this lobbying? No! All that my wake. Does this kind of thing


before someone has made a complete dog's breakfast of the press photo.


Once more, just like that! Honestly, it is much


Once more, just like that! Honestly, MDs! Dogs like to chase and shoot


balls so perhaps it is apt that the new winner belongs to the MP for


Morley. She has a very special way of celebrating victory. DOG SINGS.


I'm joined now by the Conservative Mps Hugo Swire and Andrea Jenkyns,


with their dogs - Rocco, Lady and Godiva.


Godiva enjoys singing, it started years ago, and when I was teaching,


she joined in with me. Well, congratulations. You wonder the


online competition. Yes, the Democratic people's boat! -- vote.


It is not a financial instrument. But you can paint quite hard, didn't


you? -- campaigned. We were encouraged by the Can CLUB, we had


an online thing, and brought it to people's attention. There were 19


entrants, 15 were Conservative entrants, the others were Labour. Do


Tories have more dogs or do they like showboating their dogs more? We


are a nation of animal lovers. Cross-party? Crossbreeding


cross-party? It is great fun, I had a look this morning, but there is a


serious side because it promotes the Can all Club to promote responsible


dog ownership because some dogs are still very badly treated. -- Kennel


Club. Are I am on the all Parliamentary group for animal


welfare. Now it is time to play... Here we go. Who is this and what is


the name of his pooch? It is George Bush, the first it is easy, but what


is the dog? Blair? ! No, it is Barney, the Spanish terrier.


President Putin said, you call that a dog? He has a Scottish terrier


called Miss Beazley. And this? That is Cherie Blair. That is the Downing


Street cat of the day called Humphrey. This is trickier. That is


Lloyd George. And the dog? The dog... It rhymes with rug. Pug! And


that is Gerald Ford, and what is the name of this dog? It is what


Americans like to think they always believe in. Land of the... Free. The


name of the dog is liberty. President Obama with a cute little


dog, what is that? At Oxford and Cambridge you do what? Row. It


rhymes with that. It is Bow. There's just time before we go to


find out the answer to our quiz. newspaper or magazine has Jeremy


Corbyn been pictured carrying? the Sun or Simply Knitting? So


what's the correct answer? It is the Sun newspaper. That is the


right answer! Anyway, congratulations to the dogs. The


news is on BBC One, and I will be here tonight on BBC One.


I'll be here joined by Alex Salmond, Margaret Hodge, Julia Hartley


Brewer, Michael Portillo, Melvyn Bragg, and Kevin Maguire tonight on


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