29/10/2015 Daily Politics

David Cameron's in Iceland making friends with some

But the leaders of Estonia and Finland say they've yet to hear

from the PM how exactly he wants to renegotiate Britain's membership

Mr Cameron insists his reform discussions are "going well".

We don't have the report but we do now have a date - ish -

for the publication of the Chilcott inquiry into the Iraq war.

Every five years in China, man, they have a development plan.

So man, China's one child policy has been abandoned.

We'll be finding what else is in their latest five year plan.

And how about a spot of dog whistle politics?

It's the Parliamentary Dog of the Year Awards again.

All that in the next hour and with us for the duration, businessman and

Now, first today, since we have a Lord in our midst,

let's talk about the Upper House and the events of Monday.

You voted against George Osborne's plan to reduce tax credits.

. I think that what George Osborne did was not thought through. He had

openly said in the election that they wanted to cut welfare, which is

fine and I do think welfare needs to be cut. I do believe in

fine and I do think welfare needs to welfare-to-work and I do think we

need to balance reduce our set and our deficit but

the way he did this, without taking into

the way he did this, without taking cuts on the poorest, was just so bad

it was not compassionate and also, putting it through, through a

statutory instrument was not the right way to do it. This is a

welfare matter but also right way to do it. This is a

matter T should have been in the Autumn

matter T should have been in the Statement, debated in the House of

Commons. If it was a finance Statement, debated in the House of

you shouldn't have been touching it at all. Did you have concerns that

the Lords was getting at all. Did you have concerns that

It was a tricky situation, because we had a constitutional matter.

Should we have taken part in this? Because it was a statutory

instrument we could. There was no Because it was a statutory

question about it. It is rare we voted on statutory instruments. It

only happened a handful of times in the last few years, last time was in

two 12. I think people felt strongly about it, it hasn't been done the

right way. George Osborne is a politically astute. I can't believe

he did this, after the budget, there he did this, after the budget, there

was no need to do it this way. You are a businessman, you have

was no need to do it this way. You tough decisions, not always popular.

Isn't that what Chancellors have to do taking decisions is one thing,

how you implement them. do taking decisions is one thing,

listen to people. Do you do it from an ivory tower or listen to people?

Do you take into account effects of your decisions, this could have been

phased in be and done your decisions, this could have been

that doesn't affect the poorest. the right thing in using its voice

and expertise. That's the right thing in using its voice

amazing expertise. He the right thing in using its voice

away to think the right thing in using its voice

we did, that the English came At the end of the show our guest

will give us the correct answer. We hope. For a change I know the

answer. It's day two of David Cameron's

visit to Iceland. He's meant to be making friends with

our Northern European neighbours. Our Political Editor,

Laura Kuensberg is in Rejkavik. Looks lovely. What is going on?

Well, David Cameron has been trying to show in the last couple of days

that he is, after trying to stay out of the fray, now really engaging in

this whole debate. That is a change of position, no doubt about it.

Because in recent months, while the campaign for out and in have been

getting busy, number ten have really wanted to hang back but this week

that's changed. He is trying to show progress. He has been warning about

the idea of having a looser relationship like Iceland and Norway

do, with the rest of the EU but I think maybe more than anything else,

number ten has been trying to show that he is actually doing something.

One of the criticisms that has been made at home is that there is not

really anything going on with the renegotiation, it is all a bit of

emperor's new clothes at the moment. Downing Street challenge that and

insist things are happening. And in fact Europe Minister, David living

tonne, said last night, that the technical talks were completely

complete: The difficulty with that is - when you talk to European

leaders here, the Finnish Prime Minister and the Estonian one, as we

have been doing in the last 24 hours, both said to me that they

were yet to see any real detail and that there haven't been any concrete

proposals put on the table. All of that matters, of course, not just

because David Cameron wants to look like he is in the right place, but

there is only a few weeks left before he said he'd actually put

those proposals into the public domain. Tricky times. Indeed and a

first for a British Prime Minister, I understand that there hasn't been

a British Prime Minister in recce Vic since Winston Churchill. I

presume that was during the war. What is it like there, tell us what

it is like? Well 1941 was the year. You are right, Churchill came here

during the Second World War. Second world summits, as you well know --

summits, as you well know, are odd affairs. And this is in that rather

strange tradition, partly because of where the summit is taking place.

This is the summit hotel, throughout the last couple of days, there have

been bemused glances and bemused exchanges between the tourists who

are here for a spot of whale watching or a strip around the

harbour, wrapped up, wand around like Michelin men and on the other

side you have the security men with earpieces in and leaders going about

their business. Compared to a summit in Brussels or the kinds of things

that happen in America or at G20 oer a big hardcore meeting like that.

This is a pretty relaxed and friendly affair, a bit like the

Icelanders themselves. Indeed they are. Don't go whale watching. That

seems to be a rather dangerous occupation these days. Try the hot

springs, you will enjoy them. With us now, the Conservative peer,

Martin Callanan, who used to be a member of the European Parliament,

and the UKIP MP, Douglas Carswell. Martin Callanan, how account Prime

Minister say the negotiations are going well when the people like the

leaders of Estonia and the Finns say they don't know what he wants? I

don't know what he wants. We have it in broad terms. But we haven't seen

the detail. Why don't we know what he wants? I think it is a good

question. And do you have a good answer? I think their view is that

they want to try and conclude negotiations in secret and not set

out their negotiating position too early but of course, nobody know

what is is on the table and we'll all look forward to seeing what it

is they are actually asking for when they publish the letter to the

European Council in November. You want Britain to leave the European

Union. Is this good news or bad news, for you, the way the Prime

Minister is going about it? I think it is pretty good news. I think many

undecided vote letters realise there is no fundamentally new deal on the

table and they are more lined to support leaving. -- voters will. Two

years ago when David Cameron announced the in-out referendum he

was framing it as a choice between leaving or a fundamentally new deal.

I think this week marks the moment at which the Prime Minister starts

to campaign for remaining in the EU, on current terms. He is more or less

given up on the idea of a new dee. He is using a combination of project

fear - saying you will be like Norway, as if it is the worst thing

in the world and on the other hand, suggesting we wouldn't have cheap

flights if we weren't in the EU. Both are nonsensical positions but

this is what the bottom of the barrel looks like in Downing Street

if you have no deal. With the Prime Minister deciding to come out

against the "Norwegian option" he is taking sides now. He said at one

stage he would rule nothing out. He has now ruled out the Norwegian

option. Why would you do that? I have no idea. I don't know anybody

arguing for the Norwegian option. Norway is the richest country of

Europe. It is a much sore semidetached option. It is by no

means perfect. They have a lot of problems. Nearly as bad as ours.

They have to accept a lot of the single market policies. But they are

not part of the Common Agricultural Policy, common farming 308cy, setts.

There are problems in the relationship but it doesn't seem to

do them harm. 70% of the population of Norway don't want to join as full

members T can't be that bad. Would you be happy to have a British

version. If we come out we won't copy Norway but it could provide a

template. Would you be happy with a British version of the Norwegian

relationship? I think it would present problems, particularly in

terms of services, financial services in particular and we would

need... Norway is covered by service, Switzerland isn't but

Norway S. The Norway model is a bad template. Norway is in the position

it is n because political elights wanted Norway to join and so as a

prelude to membership they went into the so-called waiting room for

Brussels membership. The people in Norway had more sense and their

politicians said no and they were left in an awkward position. Now if

they are in the position where five or six million can get preferential

terms. Think what we could do with we left and negotiated for a genuine

market accessed based relationship but without the red tape and

condition strants that come with being in the EU. What would be wrong

with that? I agree with Douglas, if we vote to leave we could probably

negotiate ourselves a better deal than Norway or Switzerland have

because of our relative size. But the problem s we wouldn't know until

we did leave. That's the problem. It depends what sort of goodwill is on

the other side, how difficult or awkward they want to be. Would, for

instance, the big question is - would access to the single market

necessarily result in accepting free movement, which is what many

people's problem is with Europe. It is a good point but let's bore in

mind last year we bought about #r50 billion pounds more stuff off the

Member States than they bought off us. They will not put protection

barriers there. They will not do that. Is the Prime Minister really

no longer neutral on this? All the signals we see is that he is going

to do his utmost to keep Britain in the European Union? I think that has

always been clear. I don't think he has made much secret of the fact

that fundamentally he wants to keep Britain in. Doesn't that weaken his

hand, then? That may be right position for a British Prime

Minister to say, that's not for me to decide. But if you are in an

negotiation, it is surely a mistake to send out signals to the other

side that basically - even if you give us next to nothing, I'm for

staying N. You start the negotiation which saying - please can we have

the concessions but don't worry we'll stay anyway, doesn't put you

in the position. But the trump card is the referendum. David Cameron

doesn't get to decide, I don't or Douglas doesn't. You do and everyone

else does, too. We have a vote. . . In the Lords. Do you not get a vote?

If I may, the two biggest developments that have happened in

the European Union over the past years is one the euro has proven to

be a disastrous thing t should never happened and slicked the migration

crisis is a huge problem. These two developments show that the European

Union, one, the free movement of people which I believe n we might

need to bring in with the free movement of people, passports check

between borders even if you are a European passport holder, you can

still have free movement and check passports but where the euro is

concerned that has proven the Europe project of an ever-moving forward

towards a United States of Europe is not going to happen and if David

Cameron can get an assurance, because there are many in Europe

right now who want to move towards that United States of Europe. That

is something we would never be prepared to go down. . I agree,

given immigration will be such an important issue it is worth bearing

in mind Iceland has a good situation with immigration. People can go to

Iceland for the skills they need. It works for migrants and Iceland. Why

don't we do that? It is the perception of outside world. To

countries like independentia, the United States, they all think for us

to be part of the European Union is important. The perception is very

important but on the other hand, I know that we are being hampered by

being part of the European Union by not being able to do free trade

deals. The EU-India free trade deal has stuck up for years and years, we

will never get that. On our own we would get there within months.

That's not what the American trade representative said today or

yesterday. He said America is moving to a free trade arrangement where

where it is doing deals with regional groups. It is just

completed one in the Pacific. It hopes to do one in Europe as well.

Although it is way behind the Pacific one. They are not so keen

any more to do by lateral deals. The State Department and Government

officials tend to like the European Union, it is a project created by

people like them to run humane economic social affairs Boyer his

Lordship makes a powerful point we. Could have a free trade agreement

with India. Isn't it absurd that Tata, a big investor in this

country, we don't have a free trade agreement with India. We could have

them if we leave the European Union. That's true but there are different

types. It is easy to have a free trade agreement with third world

country, India, China, on certain goods but we want banking services,

which is much more difficult to get. A It is surely inconceivable that

give the UK was outside the EU that it could not do a trade deal with

the USA? Absolutely. I would be interested to see if politicians

agree. Where would you rather be, Croydon or recce of it? Croydon but

Reykjavik is a wonderful place! If the ideal world would be for David

Cameron to go in there and renegotiate to see what the EU is

actually about. If he can do that and get an efficient Europe, all the

problems that the EU has, that and get an efficient Europe, all the

be a good situation. We can end on agreement with that.

So, a new timetable's been released for the long-awaited inquiry

into the Iraq war - predicting it will be made public

We don't have a date but we have a James Landale joins me now.

We don't have a date but we have a rough I hear. We could see it in the

summer of next year. -- date. There has been delays in the report and it

was originally set up when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister in 2009. It

heard its last evidence in February 2011 and yet we are still waiting.

What we now know is that we have something approaching a timetable,

if not a specific date, a letter sent by Sir John Chilcot to the

Prime Minister yesterday and published yesterday saying

Prime Minister yesterday and be finished by April and it will

then go to the security services to check there are no inadvertent

breaches of national security in the published document which will run to

2 million words and the expectation is that it will be published in June

or July next year. I cabinets nine week window when it will be

published. A huge amount of frustration expressed in reaction

about what many people see as a further delay. I will tell you what

the Prime Minister and former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, had to say

after we hear from the Speaker of the House of Commons who had this to

say in The Chamber. I think it is important on behalf of the House

whether it concerns him or not, that Sir John should be aware that there

is a very real sense of anger and frustration across the House about

the disservice that has been done. That anger reflected by some of the

families of the Jewish servicemen who were killed in Iraq, and by the

current Prime Minister and Tony Blair. -- British. David Cameron

said he is still frustrated that it is on this existing timetable and is

willing to provide more support in terms of staff from Whitehall to

speed the process up. Tony Blair responded on his website and said

that he and other contributors to the enquiry are not to blame for

this process where contributors were given draft copies of the report,

where they were criticised, offering them the opportunity to respond to

that. Tony Blair said it is not right to blame that for the delay.

He only found out this year about the contents and would reply by the

summer. He said there are other reasons why this took so long and it

is not all down to me. Thank you. We are joined by someone from the Daily

Mail. I went to the BBC, I said that Sir John Chilcot is clearly five

years late, most of the evidence has been made to the public, we can go

through the testimony to Chilcot, and we were able to answer the

question is very clearly. Do you get the impression that we now know the

date? You get the feeling that a gun was put to Chilcot's head,

metaphorically. Absolutely. There was a report that it would be

delayed until 2017. It was reported in the Sunday Times that the whole

thing had errors in the report, they had not understood how the military

works, so poor old Sir John Chilcot who is getting on now, well into his

70s, one of the panel is guides while... Some of the people whose

sons and daughters were lost died in Iraq as well. Hundreds of thousands

of deaths in Iraq. Their parents have died and they have been waiting

for this bug an important point. It is an outrage. The last British

soldier left Basra, left Iraq, in 2007. This report will be nine years

late to stop Sir John Chilcot said that it would happen in 2011, six

years after he said it would appear. This statement from Tony Blair is

amazing. He got the report on him in January and took until the summer.

He sat on it for six months, he said there was not a problem. A major

problem! Six months he sat on it. Has the problem not been with the

Maxwell eyes Asian process? The lawyers who were involved in the

original enquiry were not sat next to Tony Blair, lawyers have become

involved in this process. -- Maxwellisation. Chilcot should not

have allowed that. He knew of the criticisms. Actually, we are going

to go ahead anyway. He should not have got involved and before then he

got himself distracted by Downing Street with the crucial letters

between President Bush and Tony Blair and said we would publish them

anyway, any Downing Street wants to censor it, they can do it. He has

been dithering, and... John Chilcot? Yes. What he added with

debt? Absolutely. Let's look at the people on the panel. John Chilcot is

deeply embedded in the establishment. -- Wattie out of his

depth? -- was he. You had one person who was completely clueless, way out

of her depth. A very experienced person. She was very out of her

depth. The 1 person who made some sense was the former British

ambassador to Moscow. A low-grade panel. OK but you have always had

strong views on the Iraq war, you were opposed to it, you were against

it. Is there anything that changes your mind by doing this enquiry?

What was extraordinary, going into it, was the weight of the testimony

that Tony Blair represented to Parliament. I had a long

conversation with Hans Blix in which he said to me that it wasn't just

the notorious dossier of December 2002 but also in the famous last

speech of Tony Blair to Parliament, he misrepresented what Hans Blix had

found, and the weapons inspectors. I then had a conversation with Sir

Stephen Wall, the Prime Minister's European private secretary, in which

he witnessed Tony Blair and Alistair Campbell telling lies to the Sun

newspaper. That was in order to set up President Chirac. What is

interesting is how the weight of testimony was knowingly misled by

the British Prime Minister of the day, and also that the testimony --

that the testimony of the war is illegal. All advisers advised that

the war was illegal. I said at the end of my long conversation with

Hans Blix, can I just summarise what you said to me? You are saying that

the Prime Minister misrepresented the facts about the war to the

British people in order to sell an illegal war. Yes, I am a diplomat, I

do not use such language but essentially what you are saying is

true. But he is not a lawyer. He is very experienced. 27 Foreign Office

lawyers... Yes, but... Yes, at 27 -- all 27 Foreign Office lawyers...

That is very interesting but opinion is so polarised on the subject of

Chilcot, I would suggest that both sides will be trying to reinforce

what they already think. It is not the first time a report like this

has taken a long time. It is frustrating. For the families it

needs to happen quickly. At least we now have a date and it will happen

in the summer. Before this, it could have been 2017 but at least it is

next year. It is the families who need to know but also everybody

needs to learn the lessons. When we debated intervening in Syria when

Parliament was recalled, all the debate was about going back to

lessons learned in Iraq. If we had the Chilcot report, we would have

been better position. We need it now. The lessons needs to be learned

quickly. OK. 8pm, BBC Radio four, tonight.

Now, just over an hour ago China announced that it was to end

Women will now be able to have two children.

The decision was all part of China's next Five Year Plan,

the country's 13th, and it looks a little different.

Hey, have you heard what is going on in China?

There you go, the Chinese propaganda department really watching too much

Sesame Street the state! Write-down to American accent! -- these days.

With us now is the Diane Wei Liang, who's an author and commentator

The 1 child policy now being scrapped, that is because China now

has a demographic problem, it is running out of people. Not exactly

running out of people. It is running out of young people, and China has

an inverted pyramid which means you have grandparents and parents who

are now living longer and longer but with fewer young people to support

them. Exactly. And the endless supplies of Labour has been drying

up? Yes. The costs are high now. That is not only part of

demographics but the Labour costs have risen. This touchy-feely, nice

cartoon that we saw, is part of that not to hide the fact that the real

go-go years, of 10% plus growth, they are over now? China will grow

strongly as you expect a developing economy to do that no double-digit

growth any more. With China's current economic size, you would not

expect to grow to double digits. It is a new phase, about 7%. At that

growth, we are looking at doubling output in ten years, and there is

still a massive output economically at 7%. Today's growth equals 14% in

2011, said China is growing very fast. The calculation is I have seen

have suggested the growth rate is between four and 5% but the real

significance of this five-year plan is that it marks the move of China

from being a manufacturing lead smokestack industry economy to a

more and more service consumer led economy.

That's right and while manufacturing had been flowing and the service

injury growing, it was 18% last year, now service industry counts

for half of China's GDP. A bigger share of GDP than manufacturing now?

It is moving that direction. This new five-year plan in itself is also

slightly different. Not only in the way that you see, you know, the

little commercial here, it is very Xi. And President Xi is sort of rock

'n' roll President in China, believe it or not, he might not appear so

when he visited the Queen last week but this plan is a little different

from the last one, in that the economic element of it is going to

be only 10%. 90% of the plan is going to focus on social reforms,

political reforms, environmental issues. And that, again, brings in

the One Child Policy, part of the social reform that will be pushed

through in this plan. He is not a Liberal is he? He has been tougher

since he became President. There has been a tougher crackdown on human

rights' issues and dissidents under him than his predecessor? There are

two points - Xi is a politically strong man. He is he has incredible

power, because of his background and also because of his political

astuteness and also he is pro business. He is anti-corruption

which has touched on lots of high level politicians, CEOs of

state-owned introprizes. By in large it is all private sectors which

accounts for 80% of China's output so he is doing this, in one way to

clean up the party. Let's remember the Chairman of state-owned

introprizes, they are all party members. -- enterprises. At the same

time he is trying to drive the business side. If China is moving to

more of a consumer-driven, service economy, less of an export-led

manufacturing economy, who are the winners and losers? I would suggest

the emerging market commodity producers are losers because China

won't need as many commodities, they are in trouble. Germany is in a bit

of trouble because they are the big exporters of manufactured products

and there is a huge opportunity for Britain, because we are world

leaders in services and China will need more services? That's

absolutely true. When you saw the steel plans, closing in the UK and

-- the steel plants closing in the UK and it was the commodity, the

demand, re-Will for reduction and steel plants are closing in China

but the UK is in the perfect foegs trade with China for the next 20

years and that's what China is interested N -- perfect position to

trade with China. And what last week was about. Here is the big change.

When Mr Cameron became leader of the Tory Party and leader, he talked

about the big relationship Britain was going to have with India. That

is not happening. The big relationship is with China and how

Mr Mhrodi will be treated will be a few carpets left than the Chineseth

President. Our Prime Minister sees the future much more with China an

India. I don't see that. When we saw the plan, it reminded me of India

which has five-year plans, the hangover frot socialist days. But

India is exactly the opposite where China is concerned. India's

population is increasing. I have always thought the One Child Policy

has been, in my view not the right policy, it is inhumane, cause the

problems, and it is not right. I'm pleased it it is done away with but

in India it'll take over by 2005-30. India has a consumer-driven growth.

Independentia, the opposite of China, targeting 25% of the GDPs to

be manufacturing and wants to grow manufacturing. I think there is a

huge opportunity for Britain with China and India. All I can tell you

is dealing with the Foreign Office, all they want to talk about is

China. . After Mr Mhodi's visit, that will change.

The Office for National Statistics have this morning released new

They show Britain to be both growing and ageing.

On current trends we are expected to overtake France and become

the second largest country in Europe by 2030 and become the largest

This is on present trends. That will overtake Germany.

The UK's population is projected to increase

by 9.7 million over the next 25 years, reaching 70 million by 2027

The population of England is projected to increase

The vast majority of the increase. #12k3w4r that's less than ten years

away. -- that's less than ten years away and will increase by

The populations of the other UK countries will grow at

51% of the population rise over the next 25 years is expected to be

The population is also projected to continue ageing

That doesn't seem a will the but means a big difference.

And by that time, more than 1 in 12 of the population

By 2039 there are projected to be 370 people of pensionable age per

1,000 people of working age - up from from 310 in 2014.

You see the trend. Growing population but also more pensioners

as a percentage of the overall population. With us now, we have a

journalist from the Guardian and an Conservative MP. . We have an

growing segment of the population. And there are other statistics out

in the last 24 hours showing how incomes are rising. We need to in

some way pay for all of that. If we didn't have younger people coming

into the population then those figures would be completely skewed

in another way. Would they be worse in a sense? They would be worse. A

higher percentage of pensionable age. Exactly. Good thing? With

population comes power, if you handle it right. We will be the

biggest country by population in Europe, by the middle of the

searching tri? ? This is a very good sign for the future of our country.

--. Search tri. I I gree with that point. We are in a strong position

and the growing population means we are bringing in more young people,

which helps to balance the age of our population which is a good

thing. Do you have any concerns and many were expressed to me this

morning on Twitter. Let me put it like this - it is all because of

immigration. It is not all because of immigration. I understand that

but I'm acting as a reporter here. Is this something we should be

concerned about, or is it a plus? Well, the question is whether people

in this country feel in control of what is happening. And if

politicians are promising things like cutting net migration from

hundreds of thousands of to tens of thousands which sounds like a 90%

cut but at the time the promise was made it would only be a 50% cut and

then they failed to achieve that and promised the again, thisp isn't

going to make people feel confident in politicians' promises. It isn't

always the case. There are many things driving it but there is free

movement in the European Union. Whether people like it or not it is

now inevitable that the face of this country is going to change. Is

rising populations are going to be disproportionately from recent

arrivals, from new arrivals, from first, second, third generation,

sons and daughters of first, second, third generation,

going to be, they are the growing bit of our population? Really

going to be, they are the growing moment, the problem is we are not

catering for non-retired people, if you want, very well at all. We

already know about housing. I mean we have had dozens and dozens of

people talk about housing this year I'm sure with you and how much it is

an issue. And we have issues with childcare and schooling. We haven't

built enough schools. We are not catering for the growing segment of

our population. any nacsent economic benefits almost

from the very any nacsent economic benefits almost

issue. Isn't that an issue which any nacsent economic benefits almost

politicians on both sides of the House have let us down, and

politicians on both sides of the step up to the crease on, that

people can welcome a step up to the crease on, that

population, but it means step up to the crease on, that

more schools, we need more step up to the crease on, that

homes above all - step up to the crease on, that

that, have failed news that step up to the crease on, that

Failed is a bienry thing. I think there has been some failure. . I

think we need to do much better. It needs more investment. As a

think we need to do much better. It class. We have to do better. But the

Government is pushing the homes class. We have to do better. But the

issue now more strongly. What is remarkable under a Conservative

Government, you would have thought, horrors of horrors, the level of

housing ownership has gone down. Which usually defines a Tory voter.

It has gone down from 69% of the population to 64% of the population

owning their own homes, it is terrible. There has been

owning their own homes, it is in buy-to-let. Should Britain

rejoice that its population is growing so quickly? I mean many

people - you are too young - but in the '60s and '70, the

people - you are too young - but in this nation was of decline. Senior

civil servants would talk about the nature of decline, people were

queueing to leave. The orderly nature of decline. One used

civilised to me. It is a huge change. It is a change, if you look

at it positively it is xenlt. What is challenging is the be Bernard's

point, the Government setting ridiculous targets for migration. We

are three times of it. We need an immigration policy where we are

encouraging the skilled people this country needs to support the ageing

population. For example, the Indian restaurant industry, the curry

restaurant, they cannot bring in the chefs. The tech any, there has been

a list signed by the Who's Who saying - please allow us to bring

in. I thought you were allowed to bring them in. They are having

trouble. It is very discriminatory. With students and academics, 30% of

our academicsing are foreign. Theresa May's attitude towards

international students have shocking, she wants them to leave

the day after they graduate. Where does she say that? Because we are in

the European Union we have a discriminatory policy. We let in

anybody from within the European Union, even shob has just bought an

eastern European passport, even if they are a national of other country

they have all the rights of an etch U citizen and we have Draconian

controls against people and countries outside the European

Union, even if we want their skills. Except that immigration from non-EU

countries is also way above 100,000. That's true. With you Bo with you we

keep including international students within the immigration

figures, which is ridiculous. We have a fairer and more humane

immigration policy if we had uniform control over who decides. We need to

take back that control. We will be returning to this, to Europe, that

is, and to our population. Thank you to both of you coming N

Now if you like a good chicken tika masala and a pint,

chances are you've tasted the tipple our Guest of the Day invented.

Karan Bilimoria founded Cobra beer in 1989.

An aspiring entrepreneur, he saw the need for a beer that was less gassy

Cobra claims to be as refreshing as the former,

And now, the company supplies over 98% of the UK's Indian

That's called a monopoly. Get the commission on to him

Other beers, I'd like to point out, are available.

Our Ellie went to speak to our Guest of the Day in his office.

By day, he runs a successful beer company,

There is one word that sums up a entrepreneur.

You have to have the guts to do it in the first place

but also the guts to stay with it when others would give up.

I nearly lost my business three times over the

years and each time, getting through those crises was a challenge and

bouncing back from them and learning from them and continuing to grow.

Karan Bilimoria was born in Hyderabad in the '60s.

He went to university there at the ender age of 16.

He then came over to London to train as an accountant, before graduating

It was there he first came up with the idea of Cobra beer.

Britain was the sick man of Europe, when entrepreneurship was looked

down upon and conjured up images of Delboy second-hand car salesmen.

Entrepreneurship now in this country is celebrated.

There is huge support for entrepreneurs.

There are huge networks of entrepreneurs.

There is finance available that I didn't have,

There is the internet which didn't exist 25 years ago

In many ways, there is no better time to be

The England I came to three decades ago, compared to the UK today,

this is a country that has improved in leaps

Karan Bilimoria, CBE, became Lord Bilimoria in 2006.

In Britain we have a lot going for us.

We are less than 1% of the world's population but have the

And he has strong opinions on how the place he now calls home,

We have an immigration policy over the last

five years, under a Home Secretary, Theresa May, that I think is

damaging our economy, damaging our universities and I say this openly.

I find Theresa May's immigration policies economically illiterate.

Away from showing his strength in the Lords, he has branched out

in the world of tech and launched a new picture-sharing app.

A new challenge for someone who likes to win stuff.

And we're joined now by another British entrepreneur, Charlie

Mullins, who founded Pimlico Plumbers.

Is it a good country to do business? Undoubtably, absolutely brilliant.

Things are going from stronger to stronger, and the stronger the

economy is becoming. Better in your view? Undoubtably. What has changed?

The Tories getting youngsters into work. Was it not good doing business

under the last Labour government until the great crash? We nearly

went bust or we did go bust! That was more to do with sub-prime

mortgages in America. It was under Labour's watch. They just happened

to be in power. You telling me that there would not have been a crash if

the Tories were in power? The death as it may not have been as big but

we are onto a winner. Do you agree? Asked macro deficit. The Labour

government and publishing government have been pro-enterprise. The

networks and finances that exist, the support that exists,

entrepreneurialism is great now. Does that mean it is easier than

when you started out? When you started out, given the atmosphere

and hurdles in your way, you needed gut. Maybe not so much now? If there

is one word that defines being an entrepreneur, it it is guts. The

guts, you always need them, it is always going to be against all odds.

What is greatest technology, communications, travel. You can

start and think global from day one. We are thinking global immediately.

It may be a good place to do business for businessmen like

yourself that is it not a place where there is a low-wage economy?

Yes, I agree, I think we should increase wages. What is stopping

you? We are paying more than you do, Andrew! That is not a high

benchmark! What is the average salary of one of these people who

works in your van birthmark plumber? -- 150 grams is the top end,

anything from 80 grand. -- 150 grand. I have an apprenticeship? --

can I. I mean, I am not against what we are saying about students staying

or going, the most important thing is getting them into work and making

them pay tax. Did you advertise for French plumbers? ?125,000? Yes. Did

you run out of Polish plumbers? They are building London at the moment!

We would not have an Olympics without them! The salaries are

amazing but they are not the average. The latest figures suggest

this may be a good country to do business but there are many people,

particularly outside of London, on low wages. That is what the tax

credit argument is all about, they are not paid enough to bring up

families, they needs to be supplemented by tax. Although we are

doing well as an economy and encouraging entrepreneurism, or we

are lagging on productivity. The governments over the year not

invested enough in education and skills. -- years. The amount we

spend on a proportion of GDP is half that of America's. Research and

development and innovation, we invest very low compared to the EU.

South Korea spends double of what we do on this. We have to do this. That

will increase productivity and the wages and makers more popular. --

make us. We should be investing more on apprenticeships. Anyhow, you are

doing a great job. Oh, you're speaking to him! Thank you.

Now, doesn't time fly when you're having fun?

The nights are already drawing in, Halloween's just a couple

Bonfire night's next week, and there's just 56 days till Christmas.

Westminster Dog of the Year has come around AGAIN.

Never one to miss a beauty contest, our Giles checked out the runners

# Walking the dog. # Guests who is walking the dog?

# There comes a time in the Parliamentary year when they put

aside tax credit cuts, renewal of Trident is shelved, and

representatives of the mother of all parliaments get moments to say, oh,

look at that lovely dog! Can I just point out the serious bit? The hosts

do this event to celebrate not just all things dog but to promote

re-homing and rescuing. He lives on the outskirts of my constituency and

comes from a shelter and she is the office dog. She has

comes from a shelter and she is the personality which. You need

canning, and fashion plays a part. From Tweed to Willie jumpers. This

year came Carla. She has done a tour of Afghanistan, she searches for

explosives, she can find the parts to trigger explosives, and she is an

amazing animal. Her handlers are here today. It takes 16

amazing animal. Her handlers are train a dog out, and we are

showcasing the work they do. Admirable stuff from the dog, but

MPs will go to great lengths to take a lead and lick the opposition. It

seems doggy lobbying is a bone of contention. The do not

seems doggy lobbying is a bone of e-mail? It is a democracy and we

drew attention, and it is amazing the other entrants that followed in

drew attention, and it is amazing my wake. Does this kind of thing

work, this lobbying? No! All that my wake. Does this kind of thing

before someone has made a complete dog's breakfast of the press photo.

Once more, just like that! Honestly, it is much

Once more, just like that! Honestly, MDs! Dogs like to chase and shoot

balls so perhaps it is apt that the new winner belongs to the MP for

Morley. She has a very special way of celebrating victory. DOG SINGS.

I'm joined now by the Conservative Mps Hugo Swire and Andrea Jenkyns,

with their dogs - Rocco, Lady and Godiva.

Godiva enjoys singing, it started years ago, and when I was teaching,

she joined in with me. Well, congratulations. You wonder the

online competition. Yes, the Democratic people's boat! -- vote.

It is not a financial instrument. But you can paint quite hard, didn't

you? -- campaigned. We were encouraged by the Can CLUB, we had

an online thing, and brought it to people's attention. There were 19

entrants, 15 were Conservative entrants, the others were Labour. Do

Tories have more dogs or do they like showboating their dogs more? We

are a nation of animal lovers. Cross-party? Crossbreeding

cross-party? It is great fun, I had a look this morning, but there is a

serious side because it promotes the Can all Club to promote responsible

dog ownership because some dogs are still very badly treated. -- Kennel

Club. Are I am on the all Parliamentary group for animal

welfare. Now it is time to play... Here we go. Who is this and what is

the name of his pooch? It is George Bush, the first it is easy, but what

is the dog? Blair? ! No, it is Barney, the Spanish terrier.

President Putin said, you call that a dog? He has a Scottish terrier

called Miss Beazley. And this? That is Cherie Blair. That is the Downing

Street cat of the day called Humphrey. This is trickier. That is

Lloyd George. And the dog? The dog... It rhymes with rug. Pug! And

that is Gerald Ford, and what is the name of this dog? It is what

Americans like to think they always believe in. Land of the... Free. The

name of the dog is liberty. President Obama with a cute little

dog, what is that? At Oxford and Cambridge you do what? Row. It

rhymes with that. It is Bow. There's just time before we go to

find out the answer to our quiz. newspaper or magazine has Jeremy

Corbyn been pictured carrying? the Sun or Simply Knitting? So

what's the correct answer? It is the Sun newspaper. That is the

right answer! Anyway, congratulations to the dogs. The

news is on BBC One, and I will be here tonight on BBC One.

I'll be here joined by Alex Salmond, Margaret Hodge, Julia Hartley

Brewer, Michael Portillo, Melvyn Bragg, and Kevin Maguire tonight on