24/11/2015 Daily Politics


24/11/2015

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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

A Russian fighter jet is shot down by Turkish warplanes

:00:41.:00:42.

Moscow denies the plane was in Turkish airspace.

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We'll have the latest on this developing story.

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George Osborne boosts funding for the NHS in England

:00:51.:00:54.

by ?4 billion - but can the health service deliver huge

:00:55.:00:57.

efficiency savings AND deliver David Cameron's promise of a 7 day NHS?

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The SNP forces a vote in the commons on the renewal of the

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UK's trident nuclear deterrent, as the government confirms the cost has

:01:07.:01:10.

And Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage go head-to-head

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over Britain's membership of the EU at an Oxford Union debate.

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When I worked in the EU it took 15 years for them to sign the

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definition of chocolate. Anything that takes a decade and a half to

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decide is no sinister superstate. And with us for the whole

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of the programme today, the former Labour Secretary Alan Johnson,

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who is now heading up Labour's Yes So,

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this morning the Turkish government confirmed two of its warplanes

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shot downa Russian fighter jet which it says was flying in Turkish

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airspace on the border with Syria. Turkey says its pilots warned

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the Russian plane ten times in five The Kremlin denied the plane was

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in Turkish airspace, and says it's a 'very serious

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incident' but that it's too early to Let's talk now to our Moscow

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Correspondent, Sarah Rainsford. A couple of, contradictory versions?

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The Turkish and the Kremlin have both sought to undermine but they

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say is the fact that this Russian plane didn't enter Turkish airspace,

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the statement we have got from the Defence Ministry earlier today said

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that the plane was in Syrian airspace at all times and said it

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could actually prove that, it said there was objective information and

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proof of that, we haven't yet seen that. It also said that unlike the

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Turkish military, which is saying this Russian plane was shot down in

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the sky by the Turkish jets after violating its airspace, Russia is

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saying that it believes the plane was shot down from the ground,

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suggesting it is rebel air forces in Syria that brought down the plane.

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So keep points of contradiction, the picture is starting to emerge. The

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key question is how Russia responds. We haven't heard from resident

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putting yet, we may hear from him later, he is meeting the King of

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Jordan today -- President Putin. We understand there is a meeting of

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Nato being convened to discuss the issue so the response of Russia will

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be critical now in what is a delicate situation. The fate of the

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pilot and crew will be critical as to whether this situation

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escalates? I think it will. Certainly one of the key elements in

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terms of Russia's response. We understand from videos that have

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emerged that at least one of the pilots who ejected from the plane as

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it was brought down was killed, whether on the ground or whilst

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injecting, or when the plane was struck, the fate of the second pilot

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is still unclear. Officially speaking both pilots's fates are

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unclear. Russia says it is working to establish the circumstances. But

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the suggestion that two pilots may have been killed will contribute to

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the whole discussion and the fervour around what happens next. Russian TV

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has been quite belligerent in its response so far, one channel is

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talking about the need for retribution. President Putin may

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come at this from a position of trying to calm things down, but

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certainly it complicated the situation around Syria, where I

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think Russia had been hoping for increased cooperation with the

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coalition against Islamic State targets, Russia had been targeting

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them for almost two months. They had been hopes that campaign could be

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co-ordinated with the US-led coalition, this obviously

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complicated that situation further. We're joined now

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by the foreign affairs analyst, Tim Marshall and by Colonel Bob

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Stewart, a former British army officer and a Conservative member

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of the defence select committee. Obviously this is hugely sensitive

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and potentially very dangerous because we're talking about two

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countries that aren't exactly mad about each other, particularly over

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the border area between Turkey and Syria, but the Russians have not

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gone so far as to blame anyone yet and they are saying it's too early

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to draw conclusions, is that a note of optimism? Very much so. There are

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reasons to believe this will play out diplomatically over a few days,

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it will be a huge dramatic row but it is, where was that plane? It was

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over a border town, which is right on the border, they are both going

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to claim the opposite. Crucially, the Turkish Foreign Minister Lavrov

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will be meeting his opposite number tomorrow, and all the noises coming

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out of Moscow say they will try and deal with this diplomatically. That

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is why they need call heads, if people say and do the wrong things,

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this type of incident can spark a war. At the moment the signs are

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that it won't. There is an extraordinary meeting of Nato at the

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moment, how do you think that will be handled? Very carefully! The fact

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is, I agree with what Tim has said, it makes the urgency of coordination

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of the air assets above Syria something that perhaps Nato will be

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talking about. You have coalition jets in the skies and also Syrian

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jets, so this is very important, the imprecations are, we have to get it

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together. We will come onto how it might affect David Cameron making

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case for air strikes on little later. But let's get back to this

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border area because the reports coming out say that there was

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already unhappiness because there is a Turkish minority on the border

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area, they were feeling pursued by Russian air strikes, they weren't

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hitting I S necessarily, but the rebel groups. Is that the

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background? Whether that is directly related and they took the plane down

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from the ground, we will find that out. The Syrian top men are several

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thousand, they are of Turkish origin but they are Syrian. -- the Syrian

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Turkmen. They are in a stronghold area of the government, there has

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been a lot of heavy fighting, the Russians have been putting in air

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strikes against them, they are absolutely furious about it, they

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would regard it as in their interest to bring down the Russian plane. If

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the pilot or both of them with the Syrian Turkmen and there is footage

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of some Turkmen advancing up a hill to trees with a parachute in it,

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that is the next question. What will they do with the pilot and what will

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the Russians do about that pilot? That is the background, it is the

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Syrian Turkmen part of Syria where this has happened. The airspace has

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become more crowded since the Russians intervened, how does that

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intervene making a case for British air strikes in Syria? It's

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potentially damaging but with the way this was panning out, resolution

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20 to 49 of the UN Security Council, David Cameron due to

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response to the Defence Select Committee on Thursday, it depends. I

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agree, it looks as if Russia is not going to make a big deal of that,

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certainly we need Turkey and Russia to be working together, not at odds

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with each other. What do you think it will do, will it make David

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Cameron's case on Thursday more difficult? I don't think it'll have

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much impact. I think it will have impact but it will be seen... We had

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to get real. If this threat from Daesh is touch the great deal -- is

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such a great threat to our country, we now have 22 and 49 resolutions

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which say, nations of the world, understand this is a real threat. We

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are going to have to start thinking about who else we might have to deal

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with, and that does include President Assad's Syria, we may have

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to deal with him and others in that area to deal with such a great

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threat. Is that how you see it? If we are talking about rules of

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engagement, because this will focus minds on those rules and how we

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would be able to participate if and when the boat happens? I am not

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entirely with him, in public opinion and the wavering opinion in the

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house, those who are thinking, I'm not sure if we should get involved,

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it will concentrate minds. The Americans and the Russians talk to

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each other about how not to crash into each other, the French and the

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Turkish have been part of the process and of the British get

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involved, they will have to get involved by Nato. Basically you ring

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each, my plane is here, your plane is there, did that happen today?

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Possibly not. It's a very dangerous situation. The French and the

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Russians have been getting together increasingly closely, for almost a

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joint military action. That will also complicate the talks. Everybody

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has got to talk around the same table and that's what I do agree on.

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They have to talk to the Syrians, they are flying as well. It's a

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mess. Just before we go on, Al Jazeera are reporting by pilots are

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dead, so I will come to you for a response on that -- both pilots. Is

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it a mess that Labour MPs are going to want to vote in favour of,

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British air strikes? Like MPs across the house, Labour MPs will be

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looking at what David Cameron's plan is. This is very different to August

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2013. What happened in Paris is obviously a game changer, the UN

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resolution makes it clear that we would... I want to know what happens

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after this, because you won't win this from the air, there has to be

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ground forces going in afterwards. Not British or American, they should

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be led by Syria. This is where Bob's question comes in, who is our

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enemy here? Assad or Isis? Can't fight them both at the same time. Do

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you think Jeremy Corbyn is right to be cautious and not back air

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strikes. He is right to be cautious, MPs across the house will be

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cautious, this will not be a parade for Cameron. He hasn't laid up the

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ground yet. Maybe he will but he hasn't done it yet. That's the

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pilots being dead change things? A tragedy but frankly, they are in a

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martial profession, in diplomatic terms, it won't make much difference

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if President Putin decides to soft-pedal on it. If they died as

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they came down, it actually makes things less complicated. That there

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is no hostage or prisoner of war situation. If they were killed on

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the ground, the Russians might feel they need to respond.

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In just 24 hours, George Osborne will get to his feet

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in the House of Commons to deliver his Spending Review - covering

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But today he has announced a big chunk of his review in advance.

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This morning the chancellor confirmed that front line NHS

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services in England will get an extra ?3.8 billion above

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Those able to cast their minds back will remember the Conservatives made

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a pledge to give the NHS ?8bn by 2020 over and above inflation to

:13:55.:13:57.

The Chief Executive the NHS England has asked for it to be front-loaded

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and the increase in funding forms part of the spending review to be

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unveiled tomorrow. This follows weeks of intense negotiations with

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NHS bosses who are concerned that NHS trusts in England are on target

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for a ?2 billion deficit this year. The medicine may leave a bitter

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taste in the mouths of nurses as the Chancellor is expected to phase out

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publicly funded bursaries and replaced them with student loans.

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The extra money also comes at a price. It must be used to contribute

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towards the government's goal of a seven-day NHS and the service must

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still make agreed efficiency savings of ?2 billion. -- 22 billion.

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We promised that the people's priority would be this

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In this spending review, we are making a huge ?10 billion commitment

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We are giving the money up front so the NHS can implement its own plan

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There have to be savings elsewhere in Government spending to pay

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for this but it just goes to show you can only have a strong NHS

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Joining us now from Nottingham is Janet Davies,

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Chief Executive General Secretary of the Royal College of Nursing.

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Do you welcome this injection of cash?

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Absolutely. We know trusts are struggling at the moment, and there

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is a need for investment in our NHS and we welcome that injection of

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cash we are hearing about. But we are concerned about other things

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where we have no details, that student nurses themselves may be

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paying for some of that by losing their bursaries and going for loans.

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What impact would that have? A number of things, student nurses

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are not the same as others, 50% of their time is spent in clinical

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practice. They have longer terms, a longer year. Not able and money in

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bars etc because of their clinical commitments. The second concern is

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we do not want some of the lowest paid professional groups to be

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landed with a huge debt at the end of training.

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In fact, if we look at salaries for nurses, it may not say too much

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because unless the Government is intending to give a large pay rise

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to nurses, then they will never pay that back, they will never earn

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enough to pay the loan back. One of the big concerns is whatever scheme

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we are looking at, not only can we increase the number of student

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nurses which we need to do and not put them off, but we take account of

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the age of student nurses. The average age is 29. Many people come

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into nursing as a second career and we should welcome that, people with

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life experience offered on a second career. Compassionate, intelligent

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individuals. Many of these people would not be able to access a loan

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under the current system because they have done a degree, accessed

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other courses or had a loan. We do not want to restrict access. We have

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worked for years to widen access. Thanks you for talking to us about

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the impact that could have if money is taken away from student nurses in

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terms of bursaries. We're joined now by the Conservative

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MP Dr Dan Poulter, who was a health minister in the coalition

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government. Welcome back. We have seen an angry

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reaction from junior doctors in terms of the offer being made by the

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Government. What about this reaction from nurses if their bursaries are

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going to be taken away, lowest paid in the NHS? It is difficult to make

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these vacation until we know what the Chancellor says tomorrow.

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The important thing is to welcome the huge funding to the NHS, ?3.8

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billion is much needed. Important when we have an NHS increasingly

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struggling with finances that we put this money in upfront.

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It gives the NHS breeding time to put in place the efficiency savings

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on procurement, back office savings. The money being put in is

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probably a minimum amount the NHS needs to get through a challenging

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period. How much should it be to see the NHS through the next years?

:19:03.:19:08.

The Government has committed ?10 billion. The key is to make

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efficiency savings. Is that doable? It will be

:19:15.:19:19.

challenging. To make it possible, to realise those efficiencies, it is

:19:20.:19:23.

important to prime the NHS with money now to get through a difficult

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winter. And allow breathing space to invest in mental health services,

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primary care, make sure the money goes where...

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Stretching the pot of money beyond the realms of imagination.

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If it is correct that actually bursaries for nurses will be cut, is

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it right to take the money out of the pockets of NHS workers to pay

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for this? We have to see what the Chancellor says.

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It is difficult to speculate in advance. The challenge with nursing

:19:58.:20:04.

was there was difficulty getting people to enter the profession, one

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reason why bursaries were introduced, mostly because nurses

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generally tend to be older, or have family or financial commitments.

:20:17.:20:18.

Bursaries were introduced for this reason.

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In your experience, would this be a major blow to nurses?

:20:25.:20:29.

It would. We had a problem with midwives, when the birth rate

:20:30.:20:33.

suddenly came up again. We have a problem with agency workers who are

:20:34.:20:40.

very expensive. Growing our own workforce is an essential part of

:20:41.:20:44.

planning ahead. Bursaries are a major part. Janet was eloquent in

:20:45.:20:49.

the short time she had available, most people think of students as

:20:50.:20:54.

being 18-25. Having time available to work in pubs and bars while they

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are studying. Student nurses cannot do that.

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It would be a hugely retrograde step.

:21:05.:21:09.

Dan can't speak frankly but I think he would feel the same.

:21:10.:21:14.

He is smiling. I was fairly frank. I know as

:21:15.:21:19.

Secretary of State you looked at some issues and one challenge was

:21:20.:21:26.

facing nursing and that a free is older people are entering these

:21:27.:21:28.

professions with financial commitments and it was a challenge,

:21:29.:21:33.

part of the reason the bursaries were introduced. The impact of this

:21:34.:21:38.

on what that will mean for recruitment had to be carefully

:21:39.:21:44.

evaluated. A traditional recruitment of overseas nurses has reduced in

:21:45.:21:48.

busy years which means it is more important to focus on getting a

:21:49.:21:54.

stream through from Britain. Let us talk about the funding.

:21:55.:22:01.

This money will give the NHS enough time to make the savings, ?22

:22:02.:22:07.

billion savings, do you think that is doable? A welcome investment.

:22:08.:22:12.

I cannot understand why in an error when we had a defence spending

:22:13.:22:17.

Review the Government is committed to 2% of GDP on defence, 0.7% of GDP

:22:18.:22:24.

on international development, but the 9% of GDP spent on health has

:22:25.:22:28.

disappeared. In our time in the early days of the Labour Government

:22:29.:22:33.

we were committed to raising the average we spend on health, the

:22:34.:22:38.

amount, to the European average. That has suddenly gone. I am not

:22:39.:22:44.

sure where we are now but I guess it is around 7%.

:22:45.:22:52.

It is, 7.4%, and it will fall from that.

:22:53.:22:55.

Why do we as a commitment from the nation, as we're doing it on

:22:56.:23:00.

development, why not one help? Even with the extra money, public

:23:01.:23:05.

funding for the NHS will fall as a share of GDP, can that really be

:23:06.:23:10.

done when we have got rising population, more medicine, higher

:23:11.:23:15.

bills, can it be done if we are not going to commit even to the amount

:23:16.:23:17.

of spending other European countries do?

:23:18.:23:23.

In the long term, I agree with Alan, there is a rising demand on the

:23:24.:23:27.

health service, which comes from an ageing population, where by 2018 who

:23:28.:23:33.

will have 3 million people with long-term conditions to care for.

:23:34.:23:37.

That is a human challenge and very expensive. There are some

:23:38.:23:43.

efficiencies that can be made. On procurement, buying in bulk,

:23:44.:23:47.

economies of scale. Not enough to deal with a bigger

:23:48.:23:53.

financial challenge. Trusts are ?1.6 billion into the red in the first

:23:54.:23:57.

six months of the financial year, the worst on record.

:23:58.:24:02.

A challenging situation, no doubt. Does there need to be more money?

:24:03.:24:06.

The Chancellor has made an announcement to give the NHS

:24:07.:24:11.

breathing space. Important investment needs to be

:24:12.:24:15.

made and some of that will need to go into technology which could drive

:24:16.:24:22.

about ?10 million of efficiency and deliver better care to frail people.

:24:23.:24:28.

Some say that needs to be a fundamental change. On local

:24:29.:24:32.

authorities being able to increase council tax to plug the gap in

:24:33.:24:36.

social care funding, is that the right way to go in terms of trying

:24:37.:24:41.

to shift the association with the tax increase on two local

:24:42.:24:44.

authorities? Local authorities have a responsible for local services so

:24:45.:24:51.

there is an argument to say that it allows local authorities to make a

:24:52.:24:56.

case to raise more money. They say 2% would be enough. There is no

:24:57.:25:03.

doubt that you cannot differentiate between health and social care, it

:25:04.:25:06.

is one system, and unless we properly fund the social care system

:25:07.:25:10.

be that through local or national means, it will have a knock on

:25:11.:25:15.

effect on vulnerable people and NHS. Thank you.

:25:16.:25:17.

Yesterday we had updated figures on the cost of replacing Trident,

:25:18.:25:21.

when the Government published its Strategic Defence And

:25:22.:25:23.

The latest estimate is that manufacturing four replacement

:25:24.:25:31.

submarines is likely to cost a total of ?31 billion. That's

:25:32.:25:37.

an increase on previous estimates, which put the cost at around ?25

:25:38.:25:40.

In case costs overrun, the Government will also set aside

:25:41.:25:49.

another ?10 billion. The first submarine will enter service

:25:50.:25:51.

in the early 2030s, later than originally planned.

:25:52.:25:53.

The Government said the new cost plan reflected

:25:54.:25:55.

a "greater understanding" about the design and manufacture

:25:56.:25:57.

This is the SNP defence spokesman in Parliament. What do you hope to

:25:58.:26:10.

achieve from the opposition debate today?

:26:11.:26:16.

When we were elected in May, we were elected on three platforms, one was

:26:17.:26:21.

to get the maximum devolution of power to Scotland and delivery. And

:26:22.:26:30.

to oppose the austerity agenda. The third was to oppose Trident renewal.

:26:31.:26:35.

Within the first six months of us being elected, we have fulfilled

:26:36.:26:39.

that promise we made to the Scottish people. The motion has no legal

:26:40.:26:45.

force, it is sure to be defeated. You are just playing politics, you

:26:46.:26:49.

just want to expose the divisions within the Labour Party?

:26:50.:26:53.

I am astonished that you think we would have to take this boat to the

:26:54.:26:58.

House of Commons in order to expose the divisions within the Labour

:26:59.:27:02.

Party. Those divisions are there for all to see.

:27:03.:27:06.

You want to make them more evident. This is an entirely legitimate

:27:07.:27:10.

motion to take to the Scottish Parliament, to the House of Commons.

:27:11.:27:16.

Scotland has spoken very strongly against Trident, the Scottish

:27:17.:27:19.

Government has opposed Government, the Scottish parliament is opposed.

:27:20.:27:25.

It is not a devolved issue. The Scottish chart watchers are

:27:26.:27:30.

opposed, the SNP, Green party -- Scottish churches.

:27:31.:27:35.

We have a legitimate right to come here and put forward the case

:27:36.:27:40.

against Trident. There is a consensus in Scotland and we are

:27:41.:27:43.

articulating that. Alan Johnson, they are not playing

:27:44.:27:47.

politics, they have a right to hold this notion, it is not exposing

:27:48.:27:52.

divisions which are there for all to see.

:27:53.:27:55.

Of course they can put down as the motion. We will abstain. It will not

:27:56.:28:01.

have the slightest effect on the renewal of Trident. In 2007 when we

:28:02.:28:06.

were in Government, we had a vote on the principle of whether we should

:28:07.:28:10.

renew Trident. I was one of those marching through with my colleagues

:28:11.:28:16.

and it was over well. The next stage in between Grzegorz Krychowiak is

:28:17.:28:25.

the main gate. No manufacturing. On a replacement until we have gone

:28:26.:28:29.

through the main gate, that is the big decision next year. I can't

:28:30.:28:33.

understand why the Government are not confirming whether there will be

:28:34.:28:38.

a vote. That is where Renton and all elected MPs will have a meaningful

:28:39.:28:43.

say. We know what the SNP, where they stand.

:28:44.:28:47.

Whether the mud stands, and labour policy is to renew Trident. The

:28:48.:28:51.

leadership was to review that decision. If that wrong? To review

:28:52.:29:00.

it? Perfectly sensible to review it. We do not know where Labour stands.

:29:01.:29:07.

We do. We do not stop they may be reviewing it, our current policy is

:29:08.:29:11.

determined at conference has not been changed, we are in favour of

:29:12.:29:16.

multilateral nuclear disarmament. Brendan and I would agree, the

:29:17.:29:22.

question is how is it best to proceed to a non-nuclear...

:29:23.:29:28.

What I would say is I don't see how you can hide behind a fig leaf of

:29:29.:29:33.

multilateralism while committing to spend 167,000 million pounds on a

:29:34.:29:39.

new generation of nuclear weapons. How much? You cannot argue we make

:29:40.:29:44.

the world a safer place by investing that amount of public money on more

:29:45.:29:50.

weapons of mass destruction. That cost has gone up. ?31 billion, not

:29:51.:29:58.

?100 billion. Let us take those figures it has gone up by ?6 billion

:29:59.:30:04.

with ?10 billion as contingency. The lifetime costs of Trident, 167,000

:30:05.:30:13.

million pounds, the lifetime cost. That is ridiculous, that includes

:30:14.:30:19.

decommissioning. It has gone up from ?25 billion. ?625 million a year

:30:20.:30:26.

over a 50 year life span. It is expensive. It is not excessive.

:30:27.:30:32.

Rendon asked... This is the thing with the unilateral side, they

:30:33.:30:36.

question the integrity of anyone who dares suggest that we are safer as a

:30:37.:30:41.

country if we have a nuclear deterrent. I have seen no argument

:30:42.:30:48.

to suggest it is safer now than in 2007. We took a decision in

:30:49.:30:51.

Parliament to begin the process of Trident renewal.

:30:52.:31:03.

security is I would argue vehemently that Trident undermines our national

:31:04.:31:07.

security, because it's not a defensive weapon, it's a political

:31:08.:31:11.

weapon. It is there to secure the UK's place at the top table of the

:31:12.:31:18.

UN Security Council. It is a vanity project, and incredibly expensive

:31:19.:31:22.

and ultimately worth vanity project, because these weapons can never and

:31:23.:31:30.

will never be used. Your party is in favour of remaining part of Nato, so

:31:31.:31:33.

you just don't want nuclear weapons on the Clyde? Not at all, we want

:31:34.:31:41.

rid of nuclear weapons. If you are accusing us of hypocrisy, I suggest

:31:42.:31:47.

you go around just about every other member of Nato and do the same.

:31:48.:31:51.

You've got to start disarmament somewhere, and we're not even asking

:31:52.:31:55.

the Labour Party to agree to disarm, we're asking them not to renew, not

:31:56.:32:05.

to spend 167,000... It's not that... Hang on, Brendan. Allen, isn't it a

:32:06.:32:10.

problem that we won't know where Labour stands for a long time,

:32:11.:32:14.

because... We know where Labour stands now. It could change. The

:32:15.:32:23.

Labour Party had a policy, has a policy as you say, it could change

:32:24.:32:26.

and we're not going to know and the voters want no until there has been

:32:27.:32:31.

this long process. Political parties review their policies... This is a

:32:32.:32:37.

key decision! It is but our policy is we are in favour of retaining

:32:38.:32:43.

Trident. We are reducing the number of warheads and our nuclear

:32:44.:32:46.

capability... Scottish Labour are against it. They decided they were

:32:47.:32:52.

against it, the National party decided not to... Brendan, what is

:32:53.:32:59.

your party's position on supporting military action in Syria? Very

:33:00.:33:07.

briefly. If we are led to believe, as we were told during the

:33:08.:33:11.

referendum campaign, that we are a family of nations, and this

:33:12.:33:13.

particular section of the family says, they do not want Trident

:33:14.:33:19.

nuclear weapons, and you say, too bad, we're going to foist them upon

:33:20.:33:27.

you, it's unacceptable. Brandon, can I just ask you, what is the SNP

:33:28.:33:31.

position on supporting military action in Syria? We have set

:33:32.:33:38.

unequivocally, that there has be a chapter seven resolution, that the

:33:39.:33:44.

government cannot come back and offer up what they are offered up in

:33:45.:33:48.

the past and expect us to meekly accept what they offered up, there

:33:49.:33:55.

has to be a chapter seven resolution and there after we will look at what

:33:56.:33:59.

the government has to say. You weren't satisfied with the human

:34:00.:34:05.

resolution passed on Friday? I don't think you can accept that the

:34:06.:34:10.

enabling resolution on Friday was a green light or has given legal

:34:11.:34:14.

legitimacy for military action, it has to be a chapter seven

:34:15.:34:15.

resolution. Yesterday, the Prime Minister

:34:16.:34:24.

announced ?12 billion worth of extra defence funding as part

:34:25.:34:26.

of the Government's Strategic He plans to spend the money on two

:34:27.:34:30.

5,000-strong strike brigades, additional F35 jets, maritime patrol

:34:31.:34:36.

aircraft and high-altitude drones. Here's a reminder of the PM's

:34:37.:34:38.

statement, Over the course of this Parliament,

:34:39.:34:39.

our priorities are to deter state-based threats, to tackle

:34:40.:34:48.

terrorism, to remain a world leader in cyber security, and ensure we

:34:49.:34:54.

have the capability to respond To meet these priorities, we will

:34:55.:34:57.

continue to harness all the tools Coordinated through the

:34:58.:35:03.

National Security Council to deliver This includes support for our

:35:04.:35:07.

Armed Forces, counter-terrorism, international aid and diplomacy, and

:35:08.:35:12.

working with our allies to deal with At the moment, this country's

:35:13.:35:16.

overwhelming focus is on the threat we face from terrorism, and how we

:35:17.:35:22.

can best ensure the defeat of Isil. Labour supports

:35:23.:35:26.

the increased expenditure to strengthen our security services

:35:27.:35:28.

announced to protect However,

:35:29.:35:35.

faced with the current threat, the public will not understand or accept

:35:36.:35:38.

any cuts to front-line policing. We are naturally focused

:35:39.:35:42.

on the immediate threats today, but it is disappointing there is

:35:43.:35:44.

insufficient analysis in the national security strategy, of the

:35:45.:35:51.

global threats facing our country, Inequality, poverty, disease,

:35:52.:35:54.

human rights abuses, climate change, I have no idea why members opposite

:35:55.:35:59.

find food security such Most of his statement was

:36:00.:36:06.

about the importance The importance of shipbuilding

:36:07.:36:13.

on the Clyde. The importance of having high

:36:14.:36:17.

morale amongst our Armed Forces. "Why do we have to be able to have

:36:18.:36:22.

planes, transport aircraft, aircraft carriers, and everything else to get

:36:23.:36:30.

anywhere in the world, why?" Is it the same honourable gentleman

:36:31.:36:34.

sitting opposite us thinking of all these uses for our

:36:35.:36:37.

Armed Forces when, a few months ago, What did you make of Jeremy

:36:38.:36:54.

Corbyn's performance there? It wasn't his finest hour but it's

:36:55.:36:59.

difficult to respond to these issues. I think the general issue

:37:00.:37:07.

about Jeremy is he believes very strongly in the issues he has been

:37:08.:37:11.

involved in in the past, whether it is stop the War, CND, and he's not

:37:12.:37:18.

could change, he was elected as leader with all of that and he's not

:37:19.:37:22.

going to change overnight. It might cause in the difficulty at certain

:37:23.:37:27.

debates across the dispatch box, but by and large, it was a refreshing

:37:28.:37:41.

change. Towards the end, when I was watching yesterday, there were

:37:42.:37:44.

hardly any Labour MPs on the benches behind Jeremy Corbyn at one point,

:37:45.:37:51.

and the Conservative benches were chatting all the way through, they

:37:52.:37:54.

weren't really listening to what Jeremy Corbyn was saying. Is that

:37:55.:37:58.

the profile you want for the leader of the party? Suspect that the

:37:59.:38:03.

expectation was that the Defence Secretary was going to announce the

:38:04.:38:07.

result of the spending review and that Vernon Coker would have been

:38:08.:38:10.

responding so it was a surprise to me that the Prime Minister did it

:38:11.:38:14.

himself, that means Jeremy as Leader of the Opposition would have to do

:38:15.:38:21.

it. But it looked to me as if Jeremy was the last minute trough did in...

:38:22.:38:26.

It wasn't an issue he would have been steeped in, as I am not

:38:27.:38:32.

either,... You are not the leader of the Labour Party. There were some

:38:33.:38:38.

issues, I think it was) to raise. His general point was, you can

:38:39.:38:43.

defend your country, of course, with new weapons and replacing weapons,

:38:44.:38:50.

but the issues that cause wars or in ration the food and hunger and water

:38:51.:38:57.

security. Why are some of the parliamentary colleagues in the

:38:58.:39:00.

Labour Party surprised by Jeremy Corbyn? Theistic into his

:39:01.:39:05.

principles. He hasn't changed his views. -- he is sticking to his

:39:06.:39:10.

tentacles. Yet there are Blairite MPs who have openly defied him in

:39:11.:39:14.

the House of Commons on things like shoot to kill, on the fact he said

:39:15.:39:20.

Jihadi John should have been arrested and not killed by a drone

:39:21.:39:25.

attack. Is it right openly defied a leader in the house? I think he's

:39:26.:39:31.

the last person to talk about MPs defining leadership, that is part of

:39:32.:39:36.

what he has been doing for 30 years. -- defying the leadership. Whoever

:39:37.:39:40.

won the leadership election, this will be a tough time in terms of the

:39:41.:39:45.

new leader... Is it right for MPs like Ian Austin and Emma Reynolds to

:39:46.:39:52.

stand up... It is right for them to stand up at parliamentary Labour

:39:53.:39:54.

Party meetings and state their views. What about in the Commons?

:39:55.:40:00.

You are referring to the statement the Prime Minister made last week,

:40:01.:40:04.

and in fact, Jeremy Corbyn changed his comment on shoot to kill, I

:40:05.:40:10.

think a lot of people were making it plain in the light of the Paris

:40:11.:40:15.

attack, that yes, we must ensure that our security services are

:40:16.:40:18.

properly equipped. So Jeremy Corbyn was wrong? He was wrong to say that

:40:19.:40:26.

shoot to kill for Jihadi John, as he was termed was wrong. Are you

:40:27.:40:29.

worried about Labour trailing so far behind in the polls? The latest one

:40:30.:40:37.

has them 15 points behind. There was another one that showed us only two

:40:38.:40:41.

points behind yesterday. The polls get interesting as you get closer to

:40:42.:40:46.

a general election. At the moment I don't think anyone should be driven

:40:47.:40:50.

by the polls. I want Labour to be back in power, we are seeing what

:40:51.:40:58.

has happened lost the election. I think anyone who was elected leader

:40:59.:41:01.

in this last election would be given a period of two years, there was

:41:02.:41:06.

talk about people only standing for a certain period and having another

:41:07.:41:11.

election. I think the party would be reluctant to go into another

:41:12.:41:14.

election with a leadership that didn't look as if they could win

:41:15.:41:18.

that general election and that would have counted if Liz or Andy or if it

:41:19.:41:26.

had won it. Does it work having a section of the party at total odds

:41:27.:41:31.

with the leader of the party? Whether it be defence, national

:41:32.:41:38.

security. It is very difficult, you have to have confidence in the

:41:39.:41:41.

parliamentary Labour Party to lead the Labour Party. There are some

:41:42.:41:45.

people who believe that the answer to that is to change the

:41:46.:41:48.

parliamentary Labour Party, that isn't going to happen. You have to

:41:49.:41:53.

have the confidence of the political party you are leading in Parliament.

:41:54.:41:58.

Margaret Thatcher resigned because she got close on 200 votes in the

:41:59.:42:01.

first round but went because she didn't have sufficient support.

:42:02.:42:07.

We've been joined now by Simon Hardy, a spokesman for the Left

:42:08.:42:09.

Unity Party which, over the weekend, voted to suspend its plans to stand

:42:10.:42:13.

in next year's elections, and support Jeremy Corbyn instead.

:42:14.:42:17.

Tell us why. We've set up three or so years ago in response to the fact

:42:18.:42:27.

that a lot of people... Labour Party was in standing up for the values

:42:28.:42:35.

they wanted. Now with Jeremy Corbyn, it is beholden on anyone who shares

:42:36.:42:38.

his values and principles to get stuck in and make sure he can make a

:42:39.:42:45.

good job of being leader. You're confident he will be able to remould

:42:46.:42:50.

the Labour Party in his image? I think he absolutely has to. The fact

:42:51.:42:55.

that so many in the Labour Party, the core voters are leaving the

:42:56.:43:00.

party, 70 of their strategists think the only way they can win elections

:43:01.:43:05.

is by being a shadow of what the Tory party are saying, Jeremy Corbyn

:43:06.:43:09.

is the best hope to try and turn that around, win back those people

:43:10.:43:13.

and put principles of social justice at the mainstream of British

:43:14.:43:18.

politics today. Do you agree, you have been a light version of the

:43:19.:43:22.

Tory party? It is the kind of rubbish I have heard spouted all my

:43:23.:43:27.

political life. He needs to be in a difficult and macro different

:43:28.:43:35.

political party. The accusation goes, there is arms of the Labour

:43:36.:43:40.

Party should be... Jeremy Corbyn never went off onto forming

:43:41.:43:45.

organisations to stand against the Labour Party and fight them. This

:43:46.:43:49.

guy despises the Labour Party and has no place in the Labour Party.

:43:50.:43:56.

What do you say to that? I'm not a member and I certainly don't despise

:43:57.:43:58.

the Labour Party that Jeremy Corbyn represents. The Labour Party that

:43:59.:44:04.

this country needs... He's a middle-class intellectual. I know

:44:05.:44:09.

that you are bitter because you can do that didn't win the election but

:44:10.:44:12.

you need to let me speak because you're being a bit rude. The point

:44:13.:44:17.

is that Jeremy Corbyn is a mainstream politician, against

:44:18.:44:21.

austerity, against the war, against racism, against nuclear weapons...

:44:22.:44:26.

We are all against that. A lot of people are responding to the

:44:27.:44:29.

message, thousands are joining the party now, not because of Yvette

:44:30.:44:34.

Cooper, if people like you were to get behind Jeremy and the politics

:44:35.:44:38.

he represents, the Labour Party might have a fighting chance on a

:44:39.:44:41.

national and local level of changing this country for the better, that's

:44:42.:44:46.

rubbish, that's common sense. I have been with Jeremy all the time, he

:44:47.:44:49.

never went off on one of these flights of fancy. He never agreed

:44:50.:44:58.

with you. We introduced sure start, we reduced child poverty, we

:44:59.:45:02.

attacked pensioner poverty, we gave trade unionists the right to be

:45:03.:45:06.

represented, the right not to be sacked for going on strike you have

:45:07.:45:09.

done none of that. All you have done is print out your leaflets despising

:45:10.:45:13.

the Labour Party and suggest that over here is a plausible

:45:14.:45:17.

alternative. You have added doesn't work so you would come into the

:45:18.:45:20.

Labour Party and you won't be welcome.

:45:21.:45:24.

If he is saying trade unionists, activists around the country... Are

:45:25.:45:35.

not welcome in the Labour Party, that is a very...

:45:36.:45:41.

I am an anti-racist, what makes you different?

:45:42.:45:48.

But the principles at heart of the Labour Party, they have always been

:45:49.:45:58.

the principles. All this Tory light rubbish.

:45:59.:46:02.

Have you been welcomed into the Libby Path -- Labour Party?

:46:03.:46:07.

I haven't joined... Have you been welcomed by Jeremy

:46:08.:46:12.

Corbyn? I haven't had an official response

:46:13.:46:18.

but I know Jeremy Corbyn has said he welcomes people with the same values

:46:19.:46:23.

as him, similar to my values, joining the Labour Party and

:46:24.:46:26.

fighting to make it the kind of party that can win the election in

:46:27.:46:31.

2020. The response by Alan is indicative of the kind of

:46:32.:46:35.

undermining going on by some people in the Labour Party and the right

:46:36.:46:39.

wing press attacking Jeremy or casting doubt on him because I am

:46:40.:46:44.

not sure they are really behind the 60% of the Labour Party members who

:46:45.:46:49.

voted for Jeremy Corbyn to become leader.

:46:50.:46:54.

Are you undermining? Should some of your colleagues stop undermining

:46:55.:46:57.

Jeremy Corbyn? We should back our elected leader,

:46:58.:47:02.

that is what we should do. Right. No more undermining. But we

:47:03.:47:08.

shouldn't allow people to suggest that antiracism is somehow the

:47:09.:47:13.

preserve of some left wing students union group who have now decided to

:47:14.:47:18.

join the Labour Party. Thank you very much.

:47:19.:47:21.

Now, much has been written on how the Conservatives secured

:47:22.:47:24.

But the lurid accounts of one element

:47:25.:47:27.

of that campaign will be making for increasingly uncomfortable

:47:28.:47:29.

The Road Trip 2015 scheme saw a volunteer army of young Tories

:47:30.:47:33.

bussed into marginal seats to campaign on the ground.

:47:34.:47:37.

But Mark Clarke, who ran the scheme, has since been banned

:47:38.:47:39.

from the party after accusations of bullying, harassment and blackmail.

:47:40.:47:45.

But how exactly Road Trip 2015 was run, and who knew how much and when,

:47:46.:47:51.

has seen the party's chairman, Lord Feldman,

:47:52.:47:52.

and former co-chairman Grant Shapps facing awkward questions.

:47:53.:47:54.

Giles has been looking into the story.

:47:55.:48:04.

Give us the background, who has been accused?

:48:05.:48:12.

Mark Clark has been banned for life by the party which is interesting.

:48:13.:48:20.

The 2014 brainchild, a former 2010 Conservative candidate in tooting, a

:48:21.:48:24.

successful in winning his seat which was a surprise to some. He had been

:48:25.:48:30.

dubbed as going to the top by Tatler.

:48:31.:48:33.

Shortly after losing, his then girlfriend came out and said

:48:34.:48:38.

publicly he was not fit to be an MP and he did subsequently get removed

:48:39.:48:42.

from the candidate list. In 2014, he came back with road

:48:43.:48:49.

trip, bussing in Young Conservatives into marginal constituencies in the

:48:50.:48:53.

campaign and get them campaigning vigorously on the ground. The party

:48:54.:48:57.

was happy with that, it was sanctioned and part funded by

:48:58.:49:01.

Central office. Funding was livid with the blessing of the co-chairs

:49:02.:49:07.

Grant Schatz and Lord Fellman. On the ground, Mark was in charge. 38,

:49:08.:49:15.

in charge of a lot of activists in their 20s over weekends bust into

:49:16.:49:19.

these areas. There is another dimension to this

:49:20.:49:24.

story. This idea was about securing seats for the Conservatives but

:49:25.:49:29.

transparently and joked about as a rehabilitation tour for him. I put

:49:30.:49:34.

that point to him face to face in June, his answer was, it certainly

:49:35.:49:40.

did not hurt. Where are we now with this? Big

:49:41.:49:44.

problems. They are starting to come to the

:49:45.:49:47.

doorstep of senior figures in the party, particularly Grant Schatz.

:49:48.:49:55.

There are lurid headlines of sexual impropriety, blackmail, bullying.

:49:56.:50:01.

That aside, what we know, one of the things which is tragic, we probably

:50:02.:50:05.

would not know this if it hadn't been for the death in September of a

:50:06.:50:10.

Young Conservative Elliot Johnson who in a note after his death named

:50:11.:50:15.

Mark Clark and accused him of bullying him. Johnson had also

:50:16.:50:21.

accused Clarke of pinning him to a chair in a pub, and recorded

:50:22.:50:26.

secretly Mark Clark him threatening him. Edit Johnson saying he had

:50:27.:50:34.

properly done this before. We know now a lot of other people thought

:50:35.:50:39.

that. There is a heated e-mail exchange from August, one month

:50:40.:50:44.

before edit Johnson died. I have this here, between Paul Abbott and

:50:45.:50:52.

Mark Clark. Whilst explaining, a nasty exchange, about how much he

:50:53.:50:56.

has had to do with road trip and keep it on the road, and defending

:50:57.:51:01.

Mark Clark when in fact their work he says people in CC HQ only to shut

:51:02.:51:07.

it down, he says this included dealing with all the complaints made

:51:08.:51:11.

about road trip and your behaviour from associations, activists, MPs,

:51:12.:51:16.

candidates, of which you are well aware. It shows the aid was well

:51:17.:51:23.

aware of existing complaints which had been made. Grant points at the

:51:24.:51:31.

moved on from the chair when major allegations were made. Lord Feldman

:51:32.:51:35.

who said he did not know about these allegations until August, has been

:51:36.:51:40.

criticised and countered by a new MP who told Newsnight he knew about

:51:41.:51:45.

them much sooner. The problem is coming closer to senior members of

:51:46.:51:48.

the party. We will keep coverage on it, thank

:51:49.:51:50.

you. Think of the famous fights

:51:51.:51:51.

in history. But who could forget

:51:52.:51:53.

Clegg versus Farage? The then Deputy Prime Minister

:51:54.:51:56.

and the leader of Ukip went head-to-head over

:51:57.:51:58.

Britain's membership of the EU, in a TV debate during the campaign for

:51:59.:52:03.

the European elections last year. They must have missed each other

:52:04.:52:06.

because, last night, they staged a rematch at one

:52:07.:52:08.

of the world's most famous debating And, just to let you know,

:52:09.:52:11.

the dress code was formal. Here, they queue for five hours

:52:12.:52:20.

in the cold to get In the 1930s, the Oxford Union

:52:21.:52:23.

became world-famous when students here voted not to fight in a war

:52:24.:52:29.

for King and country. Tonight, they are grappling with

:52:30.:52:33.

another generational issue, As usual, the audience is full

:52:34.:52:37.

of politicians in training. I want to be a Prime Minister, and,

:52:38.:52:46.

if not, an adviser to the I addressed the General Assembly,

:52:47.:52:50.

like, 12 times in my life. Here come the former president

:52:51.:52:53.

of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso,

:52:54.:53:05.

and Nick Clegg speaking in favour. Opposing is Tory MP Bill Cash

:53:06.:53:07.

and Ukip leader Nigel Farage. It appeared the Eurocrat strategy

:53:08.:53:12.

is to love-bomb the UK. The single market, or internal

:53:13.:53:17.

market as we sometimes call it, in fact to a large extent was pushed

:53:18.:53:23.

by Britain, by Margaret Thatcher. We had a great European Commission

:53:24.:53:32.

president such as Roy Jenkins. Enlargement, the fact today, the

:53:33.:53:36.

Czech Republic and central European countries are members, that was

:53:37.:53:43.

very much a project of Margaret Things got tetchy when Bill Cash

:53:44.:53:45.

raised the Paris terror attacks. The important point

:53:46.:53:51.

about the question of the Over the past 20 years,

:53:52.:53:53.

90% of terrorist acts committed in European lands were committed

:53:54.:54:03.

by domestically-born European No one is denying

:54:04.:54:05.

the fact that that is the case. What I'm saying is the Schengen

:54:06.:54:08.

arrangements, and the border issue, has created the circumstances

:54:09.:54:16.

in which these people came in. Nick Clegg lost an election,

:54:17.:54:20.

but has gained a sense of humour. When I worked in the European Union,

:54:21.:54:23.

it took 15 years for the European Union to decide

:54:24.:54:27.

the definition of chocolate. Anything that takes

:54:28.:54:31.

a decade-and-a-half to decide I don't want my little children to

:54:32.:54:33.

grow up in a United Kingdom which is broken apart, and

:54:34.:54:45.

the remains of which are drifting That is not a proud future I want

:54:46.:54:48.

my country, for my children, for my country,

:54:49.:54:56.

not the proud future I would argue Yes, Nick Clegg being applauded

:54:57.:54:58.

by a group of students. Nigel Farage, on the other hand,

:54:59.:55:06.

went for I want you, please, to think

:55:07.:55:09.

of Britain and the EU being In the early days,

:55:10.:55:18.

it was pretty good. But it's been getting increasingly

:55:19.:55:32.

rotten over the last 25 years. Of course, a lot of people said, no,

:55:33.:55:37.

you must stay with him. I know he makes all the rules

:55:38.:55:40.

and the laws in the house. I know he forbids you

:55:41.:55:49.

from making your own friends. Then, the votes, done in the same

:55:50.:55:53.

way as they do it in Parliament. The Oxford Union voting that Britain

:55:54.:55:57.

and Europe are better together. And we've been joined by the

:55:58.:56:03.

Ukip MP Douglas Carswell. Is this what it is going to be like,

:56:04.:56:16.

debates like this? More evenhanded than yesterday.

:56:17.:56:23.

Does this excite the voters? When people realise that we have been

:56:24.:56:29.

part of this club for 40 years, it costs us ?350 million a day, enough

:56:30.:56:33.

to build a new hospital every week, people will realise we could change

:56:34.:56:38.

this and open ourselves up to the world and be an international

:56:39.:56:42.

player. Rehashing these arguments, maybe

:56:43.:56:45.

there are no new arguments to be made, but if we are looking at 18%

:56:46.:56:51.

of undecided, is that what will sway them?

:56:52.:56:55.

The extraordinary thing is how close both camps are. I will be interested

:56:56.:57:01.

in Alan and his view. About the third have made up their

:57:02.:57:06.

mind they are in favour of saying, but 30% going the other way.

:57:07.:57:10.

Everything is to play for Hutcheon of staying.

:57:11.:57:15.

Pragmatic, sensible economic debate is what is needed from our side to

:57:16.:57:19.

win. More than half the public according to a recent poll Hutcheon

:57:20.:57:23.

recent poll want to leave the European Union, the first time in

:57:24.:57:27.

that monthly survey. That does not subvert -- surprise

:57:28.:57:32.

me. A lot of people on my side of the

:57:33.:57:36.

debate thought this would be a walk in the park. It won't be.

:57:37.:57:41.

There are awful lot of people who will focus on this over the coming

:57:42.:57:45.

months. I believe Britain is stronger and safer in Europe, better

:57:46.:57:50.

off. That debate will happen to be had. I hope we can ignite the same

:57:51.:57:56.

excitement as in Scotland. Britain, if we leave the EU, in Scotland,

:57:57.:58:05.

where every vote counts, not like Parliamentary elections, including

:58:06.:58:13.

Northern Ireland, I hope we can generate that enthusiasm. You talked

:58:14.:58:17.

about the economics being Central, what about immigration?

:58:18.:58:20.

That poll was done in light of the Paris attacks. Do you think that is

:58:21.:58:27.

inflection of public anxiety? It would be unfortunate if anyone

:58:28.:58:34.

used scare tactics... Has Nigel Farage done that?

:58:35.:58:37.

We must make certain we do not say things that appeal to our worst

:58:38.:58:43.

instincts. The way to win is to show people we can be a better country,

:58:44.:58:47.

more international, we can control our borders but we're not going to

:58:48.:58:53.

close them. We are part of a club which has lost control of migration

:58:54.:58:57.

and monetary policy. If we take back control, that is the sensible thing.

:58:58.:59:02.

We can be an international country, outward looking, open to the world,

:59:03.:59:07.

but in control of our destiny. That is the tone we need to strike.

:59:08.:59:15.

Douglas is the sensible voice of this debate and Nigel isn't. We

:59:16.:59:20.

still have free movement outside the EU, we will be weaker.

:59:21.:59:27.

Thanks to all my guests, especially Alan Johnson.

:59:28.:59:31.

'..Viking, North Utsire, South Utsire, East Forties,

:59:32.:59:35.

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