Browse content similar to 24/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
A Russian fighter jet is shot down by Turkish warplanes | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
Moscow denies the plane was in Turkish airspace. | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
We'll have the latest on this developing story. | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
George Osborne boosts funding for the NHS in England | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
by ?4 billion - but can the health service deliver huge | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
efficiency savings AND deliver David Cameron's promise of a 7 day NHS? | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
The SNP forces a vote in the commons on the renewal of the | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
UK's trident nuclear deterrent, as the government confirms the cost has | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
And Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage go head-to-head | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
over Britain's membership of the EU at an Oxford Union debate. | :01:19. | :01:33. | |
When I worked in the EU it took 15 years for them to sign the | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
definition of chocolate. Anything that takes a decade and a half to | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
decide is no sinister superstate. And with us for the whole | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
of the programme today, the former Labour Secretary Alan Johnson, | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
who is now heading up Labour's Yes So, | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
this morning the Turkish government confirmed two of its warplanes | :01:55. | :02:04. | |
shot downa Russian fighter jet which it says was flying in Turkish | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
airspace on the border with Syria. Turkey says its pilots warned | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
the Russian plane ten times in five The Kremlin denied the plane was | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
in Turkish airspace, and says it's a 'very serious | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
incident' but that it's too early to Let's talk now to our Moscow | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
Correspondent, Sarah Rainsford. A couple of, contradictory versions? | :02:22. | :02:43. | |
The Turkish and the Kremlin have both sought to undermine but they | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
say is the fact that this Russian plane didn't enter Turkish airspace, | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
the statement we have got from the Defence Ministry earlier today said | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
that the plane was in Syrian airspace at all times and said it | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
could actually prove that, it said there was objective information and | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
proof of that, we haven't yet seen that. It also said that unlike the | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
Turkish military, which is saying this Russian plane was shot down in | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
the sky by the Turkish jets after violating its airspace, Russia is | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
saying that it believes the plane was shot down from the ground, | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
suggesting it is rebel air forces in Syria that brought down the plane. | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
So keep points of contradiction, the picture is starting to emerge. The | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
key question is how Russia responds. We haven't heard from resident | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
putting yet, we may hear from him later, he is meeting the King of | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
Jordan today -- President Putin. We understand there is a meeting of | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
Nato being convened to discuss the issue so the response of Russia will | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
be critical now in what is a delicate situation. The fate of the | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
pilot and crew will be critical as to whether this situation | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
escalates? I think it will. Certainly one of the key elements in | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
terms of Russia's response. We understand from videos that have | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
emerged that at least one of the pilots who ejected from the plane as | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
it was brought down was killed, whether on the ground or whilst | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
injecting, or when the plane was struck, the fate of the second pilot | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
is still unclear. Officially speaking both pilots's fates are | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
unclear. Russia says it is working to establish the circumstances. But | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
the suggestion that two pilots may have been killed will contribute to | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
the whole discussion and the fervour around what happens next. Russian TV | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
has been quite belligerent in its response so far, one channel is | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
talking about the need for retribution. President Putin may | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
come at this from a position of trying to calm things down, but | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
certainly it complicated the situation around Syria, where I | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
think Russia had been hoping for increased cooperation with the | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
coalition against Islamic State targets, Russia had been targeting | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
them for almost two months. They had been hopes that campaign could be | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
co-ordinated with the US-led coalition, this obviously | :05:20. | :05:21. | |
complicated that situation further. We're joined now | :05:22. | :05:23. | |
by the foreign affairs analyst, Tim Marshall and by Colonel Bob | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
Stewart, a former British army officer and a Conservative member | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
of the defence select committee. Obviously this is hugely sensitive | :05:30. | :05:41. | |
and potentially very dangerous because we're talking about two | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
countries that aren't exactly mad about each other, particularly over | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
the border area between Turkey and Syria, but the Russians have not | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
gone so far as to blame anyone yet and they are saying it's too early | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
to draw conclusions, is that a note of optimism? Very much so. There are | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
reasons to believe this will play out diplomatically over a few days, | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
it will be a huge dramatic row but it is, where was that plane? It was | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
over a border town, which is right on the border, they are both going | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
to claim the opposite. Crucially, the Turkish Foreign Minister Lavrov | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
will be meeting his opposite number tomorrow, and all the noises coming | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
out of Moscow say they will try and deal with this diplomatically. That | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
is why they need call heads, if people say and do the wrong things, | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
this type of incident can spark a war. At the moment the signs are | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
that it won't. There is an extraordinary meeting of Nato at the | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
moment, how do you think that will be handled? Very carefully! The fact | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
is, I agree with what Tim has said, it makes the urgency of coordination | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
of the air assets above Syria something that perhaps Nato will be | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
talking about. You have coalition jets in the skies and also Syrian | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
jets, so this is very important, the imprecations are, we have to get it | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
together. We will come onto how it might affect David Cameron making | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
case for air strikes on little later. But let's get back to this | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
border area because the reports coming out say that there was | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
already unhappiness because there is a Turkish minority on the border | :07:37. | :07:43. | |
area, they were feeling pursued by Russian air strikes, they weren't | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
hitting I S necessarily, but the rebel groups. Is that the | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
background? Whether that is directly related and they took the plane down | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
from the ground, we will find that out. The Syrian top men are several | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
thousand, they are of Turkish origin but they are Syrian. -- the Syrian | :08:05. | :08:17. | |
Turkmen. They are in a stronghold area of the government, there has | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
been a lot of heavy fighting, the Russians have been putting in air | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
strikes against them, they are absolutely furious about it, they | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
would regard it as in their interest to bring down the Russian plane. If | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
the pilot or both of them with the Syrian Turkmen and there is footage | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
of some Turkmen advancing up a hill to trees with a parachute in it, | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
that is the next question. What will they do with the pilot and what will | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
the Russians do about that pilot? That is the background, it is the | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
Syrian Turkmen part of Syria where this has happened. The airspace has | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
become more crowded since the Russians intervened, how does that | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
intervene making a case for British air strikes in Syria? It's | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
potentially damaging but with the way this was panning out, resolution | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
20 to 49 of the UN Security Council, David Cameron due to | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
response to the Defence Select Committee on Thursday, it depends. I | :09:17. | :09:25. | |
agree, it looks as if Russia is not going to make a big deal of that, | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
certainly we need Turkey and Russia to be working together, not at odds | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
with each other. What do you think it will do, will it make David | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
Cameron's case on Thursday more difficult? I don't think it'll have | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
much impact. I think it will have impact but it will be seen... We had | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
to get real. If this threat from Daesh is touch the great deal -- is | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
such a great threat to our country, we now have 22 and 49 resolutions | :10:01. | :10:08. | |
which say, nations of the world, understand this is a real threat. We | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
are going to have to start thinking about who else we might have to deal | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
with, and that does include President Assad's Syria, we may have | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
to deal with him and others in that area to deal with such a great | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
threat. Is that how you see it? If we are talking about rules of | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
engagement, because this will focus minds on those rules and how we | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
would be able to participate if and when the boat happens? I am not | :10:38. | :10:45. | |
entirely with him, in public opinion and the wavering opinion in the | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
house, those who are thinking, I'm not sure if we should get involved, | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
it will concentrate minds. The Americans and the Russians talk to | :10:56. | :10:57. | |
each other about how not to crash into each other, the French and the | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
Turkish have been part of the process and of the British get | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
involved, they will have to get involved by Nato. Basically you ring | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
each, my plane is here, your plane is there, did that happen today? | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
Possibly not. It's a very dangerous situation. The French and the | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
Russians have been getting together increasingly closely, for almost a | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
joint military action. That will also complicate the talks. Everybody | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
has got to talk around the same table and that's what I do agree on. | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
They have to talk to the Syrians, they are flying as well. It's a | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
mess. Just before we go on, Al Jazeera are reporting by pilots are | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
dead, so I will come to you for a response on that -- both pilots. Is | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
it a mess that Labour MPs are going to want to vote in favour of, | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
British air strikes? Like MPs across the house, Labour MPs will be | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
looking at what David Cameron's plan is. This is very different to August | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
2013. What happened in Paris is obviously a game changer, the UN | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
resolution makes it clear that we would... I want to know what happens | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
after this, because you won't win this from the air, there has to be | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
ground forces going in afterwards. Not British or American, they should | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
be led by Syria. This is where Bob's question comes in, who is our | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
enemy here? Assad or Isis? Can't fight them both at the same time. Do | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
you think Jeremy Corbyn is right to be cautious and not back air | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
strikes. He is right to be cautious, MPs across the house will be | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
cautious, this will not be a parade for Cameron. He hasn't laid up the | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
ground yet. Maybe he will but he hasn't done it yet. That's the | :12:57. | :13:04. | |
pilots being dead change things? A tragedy but frankly, they are in a | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
martial profession, in diplomatic terms, it won't make much difference | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
if President Putin decides to soft-pedal on it. If they died as | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
they came down, it actually makes things less complicated. That there | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
is no hostage or prisoner of war situation. If they were killed on | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
the ground, the Russians might feel they need to respond. | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
In just 24 hours, George Osborne will get to his feet | :13:31. | :13:32. | |
in the House of Commons to deliver his Spending Review - covering | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
But today he has announced a big chunk of his review in advance. | :13:36. | :13:43. | |
This morning the chancellor confirmed that front line NHS | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
services in England will get an extra ?3.8 billion above | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
Those able to cast their minds back will remember the Conservatives made | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
a pledge to give the NHS ?8bn by 2020 over and above inflation to | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
The Chief Executive the NHS England has asked for it to be front-loaded | :13:58. | :14:21. | |
and the increase in funding forms part of the spending review to be | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
unveiled tomorrow. This follows weeks of intense negotiations with | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
NHS bosses who are concerned that NHS trusts in England are on target | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
for a ?2 billion deficit this year. The medicine may leave a bitter | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
taste in the mouths of nurses as the Chancellor is expected to phase out | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
publicly funded bursaries and replaced them with student loans. | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
The extra money also comes at a price. It must be used to contribute | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
towards the government's goal of a seven-day NHS and the service must | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
still make agreed efficiency savings of ?2 billion. -- 22 billion. | :15:02. | :15:12. | |
We promised that the people's priority would be this | :15:13. | :15:14. | |
In this spending review, we are making a huge ?10 billion commitment | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
We are giving the money up front so the NHS can implement its own plan | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
There have to be savings elsewhere in Government spending to pay | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
for this but it just goes to show you can only have a strong NHS | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
Joining us now from Nottingham is Janet Davies, | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
Chief Executive General Secretary of the Royal College of Nursing. | :15:40. | :15:47. | |
Do you welcome this injection of cash? | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
Absolutely. We know trusts are struggling at the moment, and there | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
is a need for investment in our NHS and we welcome that injection of | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
cash we are hearing about. But we are concerned about other things | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
where we have no details, that student nurses themselves may be | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
paying for some of that by losing their bursaries and going for loans. | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
What impact would that have? A number of things, student nurses | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
are not the same as others, 50% of their time is spent in clinical | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
practice. They have longer terms, a longer year. Not able and money in | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
bars etc because of their clinical commitments. The second concern is | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
we do not want some of the lowest paid professional groups to be | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
landed with a huge debt at the end of training. | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
In fact, if we look at salaries for nurses, it may not say too much | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
because unless the Government is intending to give a large pay rise | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
to nurses, then they will never pay that back, they will never earn | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
enough to pay the loan back. One of the big concerns is whatever scheme | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
we are looking at, not only can we increase the number of student | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
nurses which we need to do and not put them off, but we take account of | :17:09. | :17:16. | |
the age of student nurses. The average age is 29. Many people come | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
into nursing as a second career and we should welcome that, people with | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
life experience offered on a second career. Compassionate, intelligent | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
individuals. Many of these people would not be able to access a loan | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
under the current system because they have done a degree, accessed | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
other courses or had a loan. We do not want to restrict access. We have | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
worked for years to widen access. Thanks you for talking to us about | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
the impact that could have if money is taken away from student nurses in | :17:53. | :17:54. | |
terms of bursaries. We're joined now by the Conservative | :17:55. | :17:56. | |
MP Dr Dan Poulter, who was a health minister in the coalition | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
government. Welcome back. We have seen an angry | :18:00. | :18:07. | |
reaction from junior doctors in terms of the offer being made by the | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
Government. What about this reaction from nurses if their bursaries are | :18:12. | :18:19. | |
going to be taken away, lowest paid in the NHS? It is difficult to make | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
these vacation until we know what the Chancellor says tomorrow. | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
The important thing is to welcome the huge funding to the NHS, ?3.8 | :18:28. | :18:35. | |
billion is much needed. Important when we have an NHS increasingly | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
struggling with finances that we put this money in upfront. | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
It gives the NHS breeding time to put in place the efficiency savings | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
on procurement, back office savings. The money being put in is | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
probably a minimum amount the NHS needs to get through a challenging | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
period. How much should it be to see the NHS through the next years? | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
The Government has committed ?10 billion. The key is to make | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
efficiency savings. Is that doable? It will be | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
challenging. To make it possible, to realise those efficiencies, it is | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
important to prime the NHS with money now to get through a difficult | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
winter. And allow breathing space to invest in mental health services, | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
primary care, make sure the money goes where... | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
Stretching the pot of money beyond the realms of imagination. | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
If it is correct that actually bursaries for nurses will be cut, is | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
it right to take the money out of the pockets of NHS workers to pay | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
for this? We have to see what the Chancellor says. | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
It is difficult to speculate in advance. The challenge with nursing | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
was there was difficulty getting people to enter the profession, one | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
reason why bursaries were introduced, mostly because nurses | :20:10. | :20:16. | |
generally tend to be older, or have family or financial commitments. | :20:17. | :20:18. | |
Bursaries were introduced for this reason. | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
In your experience, would this be a major blow to nurses? | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
It would. We had a problem with midwives, when the birth rate | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
suddenly came up again. We have a problem with agency workers who are | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
very expensive. Growing our own workforce is an essential part of | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
planning ahead. Bursaries are a major part. Janet was eloquent in | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
the short time she had available, most people think of students as | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
being 18-25. Having time available to work in pubs and bars while they | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
are studying. Student nurses cannot do that. | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
It would be a hugely retrograde step. | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
Dan can't speak frankly but I think he would feel the same. | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
He is smiling. I was fairly frank. I know as | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
Secretary of State you looked at some issues and one challenge was | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
facing nursing and that a free is older people are entering these | :21:27. | :21:28. | |
professions with financial commitments and it was a challenge, | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
part of the reason the bursaries were introduced. The impact of this | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
on what that will mean for recruitment had to be carefully | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
evaluated. A traditional recruitment of overseas nurses has reduced in | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
busy years which means it is more important to focus on getting a | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
stream through from Britain. Let us talk about the funding. | :21:55. | :22:01. | |
This money will give the NHS enough time to make the savings, ?22 | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
billion savings, do you think that is doable? A welcome investment. | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
I cannot understand why in an error when we had a defence spending | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
Review the Government is committed to 2% of GDP on defence, 0.7% of GDP | :22:18. | :22:24. | |
on international development, but the 9% of GDP spent on health has | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
disappeared. In our time in the early days of the Labour Government | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
we were committed to raising the average we spend on health, the | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
amount, to the European average. That has suddenly gone. I am not | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
sure where we are now but I guess it is around 7%. | :22:45. | :22:52. | |
It is, 7.4%, and it will fall from that. | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
Why do we as a commitment from the nation, as we're doing it on | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
development, why not one help? Even with the extra money, public | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
funding for the NHS will fall as a share of GDP, can that really be | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
done when we have got rising population, more medicine, higher | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
bills, can it be done if we are not going to commit even to the amount | :23:16. | :23:17. | |
of spending other European countries do? | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
In the long term, I agree with Alan, there is a rising demand on the | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
health service, which comes from an ageing population, where by 2018 who | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
will have 3 million people with long-term conditions to care for. | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
That is a human challenge and very expensive. There are some | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
efficiencies that can be made. On procurement, buying in bulk, | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
economies of scale. Not enough to deal with a bigger | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
financial challenge. Trusts are ?1.6 billion into the red in the first | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
six months of the financial year, the worst on record. | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
A challenging situation, no doubt. Does there need to be more money? | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
The Chancellor has made an announcement to give the NHS | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
breathing space. Important investment needs to be | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
made and some of that will need to go into technology which could drive | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
about ?10 million of efficiency and deliver better care to frail people. | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
Some say that needs to be a fundamental change. On local | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
authorities being able to increase council tax to plug the gap in | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
social care funding, is that the right way to go in terms of trying | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
to shift the association with the tax increase on two local | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
authorities? Local authorities have a responsible for local services so | :24:45. | :24:51. | |
there is an argument to say that it allows local authorities to make a | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
case to raise more money. They say 2% would be enough. There is no | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
doubt that you cannot differentiate between health and social care, it | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
is one system, and unless we properly fund the social care system | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
be that through local or national means, it will have a knock on | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
effect on vulnerable people and NHS. Thank you. | :25:16. | :25:17. | |
Yesterday we had updated figures on the cost of replacing Trident, | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
when the Government published its Strategic Defence And | :25:22. | :25:23. | |
The latest estimate is that manufacturing four replacement | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
submarines is likely to cost a total of ?31 billion. That's | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
an increase on previous estimates, which put the cost at around ?25 | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
In case costs overrun, the Government will also set aside | :25:41. | :25:49. | |
another ?10 billion. The first submarine will enter service | :25:50. | :25:51. | |
in the early 2030s, later than originally planned. | :25:52. | :25:53. | |
The Government said the new cost plan reflected | :25:54. | :25:55. | |
a "greater understanding" about the design and manufacture | :25:56. | :25:57. | |
This is the SNP defence spokesman in Parliament. What do you hope to | :25:58. | :26:10. | |
achieve from the opposition debate today? | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
When we were elected in May, we were elected on three platforms, one was | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
to get the maximum devolution of power to Scotland and delivery. And | :26:22. | :26:30. | |
to oppose the austerity agenda. The third was to oppose Trident renewal. | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
Within the first six months of us being elected, we have fulfilled | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
that promise we made to the Scottish people. The motion has no legal | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
force, it is sure to be defeated. You are just playing politics, you | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
just want to expose the divisions within the Labour Party? | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
I am astonished that you think we would have to take this boat to the | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
House of Commons in order to expose the divisions within the Labour | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
Party. Those divisions are there for all to see. | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
You want to make them more evident. This is an entirely legitimate | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
motion to take to the Scottish Parliament, to the House of Commons. | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
Scotland has spoken very strongly against Trident, the Scottish | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
Government has opposed Government, the Scottish parliament is opposed. | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
It is not a devolved issue. The Scottish chart watchers are | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
opposed, the SNP, Green party -- Scottish churches. | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
We have a legitimate right to come here and put forward the case | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
against Trident. There is a consensus in Scotland and we are | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
articulating that. Alan Johnson, they are not playing | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
politics, they have a right to hold this notion, it is not exposing | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
divisions which are there for all to see. | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
Of course they can put down as the motion. We will abstain. It will not | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
have the slightest effect on the renewal of Trident. In 2007 when we | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
were in Government, we had a vote on the principle of whether we should | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
renew Trident. I was one of those marching through with my colleagues | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
and it was over well. The next stage in between Grzegorz Krychowiak is | :28:17. | :28:25. | |
the main gate. No manufacturing. On a replacement until we have gone | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
through the main gate, that is the big decision next year. I can't | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
understand why the Government are not confirming whether there will be | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
a vote. That is where Renton and all elected MPs will have a meaningful | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
say. We know what the SNP, where they stand. | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
Whether the mud stands, and labour policy is to renew Trident. The | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
leadership was to review that decision. If that wrong? To review | :28:52. | :29:00. | |
it? Perfectly sensible to review it. We do not know where Labour stands. | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
We do. We do not stop they may be reviewing it, our current policy is | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
determined at conference has not been changed, we are in favour of | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
multilateral nuclear disarmament. Brendan and I would agree, the | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
question is how is it best to proceed to a non-nuclear... | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
What I would say is I don't see how you can hide behind a fig leaf of | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
multilateralism while committing to spend 167,000 million pounds on a | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
new generation of nuclear weapons. How much? You cannot argue we make | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
the world a safer place by investing that amount of public money on more | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
weapons of mass destruction. That cost has gone up. ?31 billion, not | :29:51. | :29:58. | |
?100 billion. Let us take those figures it has gone up by ?6 billion | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
with ?10 billion as contingency. The lifetime costs of Trident, 167,000 | :30:05. | :30:13. | |
million pounds, the lifetime cost. That is ridiculous, that includes | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
decommissioning. It has gone up from ?25 billion. ?625 million a year | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
over a 50 year life span. It is expensive. It is not excessive. | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
Rendon asked... This is the thing with the unilateral side, they | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
question the integrity of anyone who dares suggest that we are safer as a | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
country if we have a nuclear deterrent. I have seen no argument | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
to suggest it is safer now than in 2007. We took a decision in | :30:49. | :30:51. | |
Parliament to begin the process of Trident renewal. | :30:52. | :31:03. | |
security is I would argue vehemently that Trident undermines our national | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
security, because it's not a defensive weapon, it's a political | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
weapon. It is there to secure the UK's place at the top table of the | :31:12. | :31:18. | |
UN Security Council. It is a vanity project, and incredibly expensive | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
and ultimately worth vanity project, because these weapons can never and | :31:23. | :31:30. | |
will never be used. Your party is in favour of remaining part of Nato, so | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
you just don't want nuclear weapons on the Clyde? Not at all, we want | :31:34. | :31:41. | |
rid of nuclear weapons. If you are accusing us of hypocrisy, I suggest | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
you go around just about every other member of Nato and do the same. | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
You've got to start disarmament somewhere, and we're not even asking | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
the Labour Party to agree to disarm, we're asking them not to renew, not | :31:56. | :32:05. | |
to spend 167,000... It's not that... Hang on, Brendan. Allen, isn't it a | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
problem that we won't know where Labour stands for a long time, | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
because... We know where Labour stands now. It could change. The | :32:15. | :32:23. | |
Labour Party had a policy, has a policy as you say, it could change | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
and we're not going to know and the voters want no until there has been | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
this long process. Political parties review their policies... This is a | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
key decision! It is but our policy is we are in favour of retaining | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
Trident. We are reducing the number of warheads and our nuclear | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
capability... Scottish Labour are against it. They decided they were | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
against it, the National party decided not to... Brendan, what is | :32:53. | :32:59. | |
your party's position on supporting military action in Syria? Very | :33:00. | :33:07. | |
briefly. If we are led to believe, as we were told during the | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
referendum campaign, that we are a family of nations, and this | :33:12. | :33:13. | |
particular section of the family says, they do not want Trident | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
nuclear weapons, and you say, too bad, we're going to foist them upon | :33:20. | :33:27. | |
you, it's unacceptable. Brandon, can I just ask you, what is the SNP | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
position on supporting military action in Syria? We have set | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
unequivocally, that there has be a chapter seven resolution, that the | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
government cannot come back and offer up what they are offered up in | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
the past and expect us to meekly accept what they offered up, there | :33:49. | :33:55. | |
has to be a chapter seven resolution and there after we will look at what | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
the government has to say. You weren't satisfied with the human | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
resolution passed on Friday? I don't think you can accept that the | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
enabling resolution on Friday was a green light or has given legal | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
legitimacy for military action, it has to be a chapter seven | :34:15. | :34:15. | |
resolution. Yesterday, the Prime Minister | :34:16. | :34:24. | |
announced ?12 billion worth of extra defence funding as part | :34:25. | :34:26. | |
of the Government's Strategic He plans to spend the money on two | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
5,000-strong strike brigades, additional F35 jets, maritime patrol | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
aircraft and high-altitude drones. Here's a reminder of the PM's | :34:37. | :34:38. | |
statement, Over the course of this Parliament, | :34:39. | :34:39. | |
our priorities are to deter state-based threats, to tackle | :34:40. | :34:48. | |
terrorism, to remain a world leader in cyber security, and ensure we | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
have the capability to respond To meet these priorities, we will | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
continue to harness all the tools Coordinated through the | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
National Security Council to deliver This includes support for our | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
Armed Forces, counter-terrorism, international aid and diplomacy, and | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
working with our allies to deal with At the moment, this country's | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
overwhelming focus is on the threat we face from terrorism, and how we | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
can best ensure the defeat of Isil. Labour supports | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
the increased expenditure to strengthen our security services | :35:27. | :35:28. | |
announced to protect However, | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
faced with the current threat, the public will not understand or accept | :35:36. | :35:38. | |
any cuts to front-line policing. We are naturally focused | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
on the immediate threats today, but it is disappointing there is | :35:43. | :35:44. | |
insufficient analysis in the national security strategy, of the | :35:45. | :35:51. | |
global threats facing our country, Inequality, poverty, disease, | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
human rights abuses, climate change, I have no idea why members opposite | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
find food security such Most of his statement was | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
about the importance The importance of shipbuilding | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
on the Clyde. The importance of having high | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
morale amongst our Armed Forces. "Why do we have to be able to have | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
planes, transport aircraft, aircraft carriers, and everything else to get | :36:23. | :36:30. | |
anywhere in the world, why?" Is it the same honourable gentleman | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
sitting opposite us thinking of all these uses for our | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
Armed Forces when, a few months ago, What did you make of Jeremy | :36:38. | :36:54. | |
Corbyn's performance there? It wasn't his finest hour but it's | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
difficult to respond to these issues. I think the general issue | :37:00. | :37:07. | |
about Jeremy is he believes very strongly in the issues he has been | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
involved in in the past, whether it is stop the War, CND, and he's not | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
could change, he was elected as leader with all of that and he's not | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
going to change overnight. It might cause in the difficulty at certain | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
debates across the dispatch box, but by and large, it was a refreshing | :37:28. | :37:41. | |
change. Towards the end, when I was watching yesterday, there were | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
hardly any Labour MPs on the benches behind Jeremy Corbyn at one point, | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
and the Conservative benches were chatting all the way through, they | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
weren't really listening to what Jeremy Corbyn was saying. Is that | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
the profile you want for the leader of the party? Suspect that the | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
expectation was that the Defence Secretary was going to announce the | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
result of the spending review and that Vernon Coker would have been | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
responding so it was a surprise to me that the Prime Minister did it | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
himself, that means Jeremy as Leader of the Opposition would have to do | :38:15. | :38:21. | |
it. But it looked to me as if Jeremy was the last minute trough did in... | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
It wasn't an issue he would have been steeped in, as I am not | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
either,... You are not the leader of the Labour Party. There were some | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
issues, I think it was) to raise. His general point was, you can | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
defend your country, of course, with new weapons and replacing weapons, | :38:44. | :38:50. | |
but the issues that cause wars or in ration the food and hunger and water | :38:51. | :38:57. | |
security. Why are some of the parliamentary colleagues in the | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
Labour Party surprised by Jeremy Corbyn? Theistic into his | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
principles. He hasn't changed his views. -- he is sticking to his | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
tentacles. Yet there are Blairite MPs who have openly defied him in | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
the House of Commons on things like shoot to kill, on the fact he said | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
Jihadi John should have been arrested and not killed by a drone | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
attack. Is it right openly defied a leader in the house? I think he's | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
the last person to talk about MPs defining leadership, that is part of | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
what he has been doing for 30 years. -- defying the leadership. Whoever | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
won the leadership election, this will be a tough time in terms of the | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
new leader... Is it right for MPs like Ian Austin and Emma Reynolds to | :39:46. | :39:52. | |
stand up... It is right for them to stand up at parliamentary Labour | :39:53. | :39:54. | |
Party meetings and state their views. What about in the Commons? | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
You are referring to the statement the Prime Minister made last week, | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
and in fact, Jeremy Corbyn changed his comment on shoot to kill, I | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
think a lot of people were making it plain in the light of the Paris | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
attack, that yes, we must ensure that our security services are | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
properly equipped. So Jeremy Corbyn was wrong? He was wrong to say that | :40:19. | :40:26. | |
shoot to kill for Jihadi John, as he was termed was wrong. Are you | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
worried about Labour trailing so far behind in the polls? The latest one | :40:30. | :40:37. | |
has them 15 points behind. There was another one that showed us only two | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
points behind yesterday. The polls get interesting as you get closer to | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
a general election. At the moment I don't think anyone should be driven | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
by the polls. I want Labour to be back in power, we are seeing what | :40:51. | :40:58. | |
has happened lost the election. I think anyone who was elected leader | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
in this last election would be given a period of two years, there was | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
talk about people only standing for a certain period and having another | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
election. I think the party would be reluctant to go into another | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
election with a leadership that didn't look as if they could win | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
that general election and that would have counted if Liz or Andy or if it | :41:19. | :41:26. | |
had won it. Does it work having a section of the party at total odds | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
with the leader of the party? Whether it be defence, national | :41:32. | :41:38. | |
security. It is very difficult, you have to have confidence in the | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
parliamentary Labour Party to lead the Labour Party. There are some | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
people who believe that the answer to that is to change the | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
parliamentary Labour Party, that isn't going to happen. You have to | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
have the confidence of the political party you are leading in Parliament. | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
Margaret Thatcher resigned because she got close on 200 votes in the | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
first round but went because she didn't have sufficient support. | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
We've been joined now by Simon Hardy, a spokesman for the Left | :42:08. | :42:09. | |
Unity Party which, over the weekend, voted to suspend its plans to stand | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
in next year's elections, and support Jeremy Corbyn instead. | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
Tell us why. We've set up three or so years ago in response to the fact | :42:18. | :42:27. | |
that a lot of people... Labour Party was in standing up for the values | :42:28. | :42:35. | |
they wanted. Now with Jeremy Corbyn, it is beholden on anyone who shares | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
his values and principles to get stuck in and make sure he can make a | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
good job of being leader. You're confident he will be able to remould | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
the Labour Party in his image? I think he absolutely has to. The fact | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
that so many in the Labour Party, the core voters are leaving the | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
party, 70 of their strategists think the only way they can win elections | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
is by being a shadow of what the Tory party are saying, Jeremy Corbyn | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
is the best hope to try and turn that around, win back those people | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
and put principles of social justice at the mainstream of British | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
politics today. Do you agree, you have been a light version of the | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
Tory party? It is the kind of rubbish I have heard spouted all my | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
political life. He needs to be in a difficult and macro different | :43:28. | :43:35. | |
political party. The accusation goes, there is arms of the Labour | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
Party should be... Jeremy Corbyn never went off onto forming | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
organisations to stand against the Labour Party and fight them. This | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
guy despises the Labour Party and has no place in the Labour Party. | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
What do you say to that? I'm not a member and I certainly don't despise | :43:57. | :43:58. | |
the Labour Party that Jeremy Corbyn represents. The Labour Party that | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
this country needs... He's a middle-class intellectual. I know | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
that you are bitter because you can do that didn't win the election but | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
you need to let me speak because you're being a bit rude. The point | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
is that Jeremy Corbyn is a mainstream politician, against | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
austerity, against the war, against racism, against nuclear weapons... | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
We are all against that. A lot of people are responding to the | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
message, thousands are joining the party now, not because of Yvette | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
Cooper, if people like you were to get behind Jeremy and the politics | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
he represents, the Labour Party might have a fighting chance on a | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
national and local level of changing this country for the better, that's | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
rubbish, that's common sense. I have been with Jeremy all the time, he | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
never went off on one of these flights of fancy. He never agreed | :44:50. | :44:58. | |
with you. We introduced sure start, we reduced child poverty, we | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
attacked pensioner poverty, we gave trade unionists the right to be | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
represented, the right not to be sacked for going on strike you have | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
done none of that. All you have done is print out your leaflets despising | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
the Labour Party and suggest that over here is a plausible | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
alternative. You have added doesn't work so you would come into the | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
Labour Party and you won't be welcome. | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
If he is saying trade unionists, activists around the country... Are | :45:25. | :45:35. | |
not welcome in the Labour Party, that is a very... | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
I am an anti-racist, what makes you different? | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
But the principles at heart of the Labour Party, they have always been | :45:49. | :45:58. | |
the principles. All this Tory light rubbish. | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
Have you been welcomed into the Libby Path -- Labour Party? | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
I haven't joined... Have you been welcomed by Jeremy | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
Corbyn? I haven't had an official response | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
but I know Jeremy Corbyn has said he welcomes people with the same values | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
as him, similar to my values, joining the Labour Party and | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
fighting to make it the kind of party that can win the election in | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
2020. The response by Alan is indicative of the kind of | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
undermining going on by some people in the Labour Party and the right | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
wing press attacking Jeremy or casting doubt on him because I am | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
not sure they are really behind the 60% of the Labour Party members who | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
voted for Jeremy Corbyn to become leader. | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
Are you undermining? Should some of your colleagues stop undermining | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
Jeremy Corbyn? We should back our elected leader, | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
that is what we should do. Right. No more undermining. But we | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
shouldn't allow people to suggest that antiracism is somehow the | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
preserve of some left wing students union group who have now decided to | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
join the Labour Party. Thank you very much. | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
Now, much has been written on how the Conservatives secured | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
But the lurid accounts of one element | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
of that campaign will be making for increasingly uncomfortable | :47:28. | :47:29. | |
The Road Trip 2015 scheme saw a volunteer army of young Tories | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
bussed into marginal seats to campaign on the ground. | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
But Mark Clarke, who ran the scheme, has since been banned | :47:38. | :47:39. | |
from the party after accusations of bullying, harassment and blackmail. | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
But how exactly Road Trip 2015 was run, and who knew how much and when, | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
has seen the party's chairman, Lord Feldman, | :47:52. | :47:52. | |
and former co-chairman Grant Shapps facing awkward questions. | :47:53. | :47:54. | |
Giles has been looking into the story. | :47:55. | :48:04. | |
Give us the background, who has been accused? | :48:05. | :48:12. | |
Mark Clark has been banned for life by the party which is interesting. | :48:13. | :48:20. | |
The 2014 brainchild, a former 2010 Conservative candidate in tooting, a | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
successful in winning his seat which was a surprise to some. He had been | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
dubbed as going to the top by Tatler. | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
Shortly after losing, his then girlfriend came out and said | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
publicly he was not fit to be an MP and he did subsequently get removed | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
from the candidate list. In 2014, he came back with road | :48:43. | :48:49. | |
trip, bussing in Young Conservatives into marginal constituencies in the | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
campaign and get them campaigning vigorously on the ground. The party | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
was happy with that, it was sanctioned and part funded by | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
Central office. Funding was livid with the blessing of the co-chairs | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
Grant Schatz and Lord Fellman. On the ground, Mark was in charge. 38, | :49:08. | :49:15. | |
in charge of a lot of activists in their 20s over weekends bust into | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
these areas. There is another dimension to this | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
story. This idea was about securing seats for the Conservatives but | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
transparently and joked about as a rehabilitation tour for him. I put | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
that point to him face to face in June, his answer was, it certainly | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
did not hurt. Where are we now with this? Big | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
problems. They are starting to come to the | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
doorstep of senior figures in the party, particularly Grant Schatz. | :49:48. | :49:55. | |
There are lurid headlines of sexual impropriety, blackmail, bullying. | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
That aside, what we know, one of the things which is tragic, we probably | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
would not know this if it hadn't been for the death in September of a | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
Young Conservative Elliot Johnson who in a note after his death named | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
Mark Clark and accused him of bullying him. Johnson had also | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
accused Clarke of pinning him to a chair in a pub, and recorded | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
secretly Mark Clark him threatening him. Edit Johnson saying he had | :50:27. | :50:34. | |
properly done this before. We know now a lot of other people thought | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
that. There is a heated e-mail exchange from August, one month | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
before edit Johnson died. I have this here, between Paul Abbott and | :50:45. | :50:52. | |
Mark Clark. Whilst explaining, a nasty exchange, about how much he | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
has had to do with road trip and keep it on the road, and defending | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
Mark Clark when in fact their work he says people in CC HQ only to shut | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
it down, he says this included dealing with all the complaints made | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
about road trip and your behaviour from associations, activists, MPs, | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
candidates, of which you are well aware. It shows the aid was well | :51:17. | :51:23. | |
aware of existing complaints which had been made. Grant points at the | :51:24. | :51:31. | |
moved on from the chair when major allegations were made. Lord Feldman | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
who said he did not know about these allegations until August, has been | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
criticised and countered by a new MP who told Newsnight he knew about | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
them much sooner. The problem is coming closer to senior members of | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
the party. We will keep coverage on it, thank | :51:49. | :51:50. | |
you. Think of the famous fights | :51:51. | :51:51. | |
in history. But who could forget | :51:52. | :51:53. | |
Clegg versus Farage? The then Deputy Prime Minister | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
and the leader of Ukip went head-to-head over | :51:57. | :51:58. | |
Britain's membership of the EU, in a TV debate during the campaign for | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
the European elections last year. They must have missed each other | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
because, last night, they staged a rematch at one | :52:07. | :52:08. | |
of the world's most famous debating And, just to let you know, | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
the dress code was formal. Here, they queue for five hours | :52:12. | :52:20. | |
in the cold to get In the 1930s, the Oxford Union | :52:21. | :52:23. | |
became world-famous when students here voted not to fight in a war | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
for King and country. Tonight, they are grappling with | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
another generational issue, As usual, the audience is full | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
of politicians in training. I want to be a Prime Minister, and, | :52:38. | :52:46. | |
if not, an adviser to the I addressed the General Assembly, | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
like, 12 times in my life. Here come the former president | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, | :52:54. | :53:05. | |
and Nick Clegg speaking in favour. Opposing is Tory MP Bill Cash | :53:06. | :53:07. | |
and Ukip leader Nigel Farage. It appeared the Eurocrat strategy | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
is to love-bomb the UK. The single market, or internal | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
market as we sometimes call it, in fact to a large extent was pushed | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
by Britain, by Margaret Thatcher. We had a great European Commission | :53:24. | :53:32. | |
president such as Roy Jenkins. Enlargement, the fact today, the | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
Czech Republic and central European countries are members, that was | :53:37. | :53:43. | |
very much a project of Margaret Things got tetchy when Bill Cash | :53:44. | :53:45. | |
raised the Paris terror attacks. The important point | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
about the question of the Over the past 20 years, | :53:52. | :53:53. | |
90% of terrorist acts committed in European lands were committed | :53:54. | :54:03. | |
by domestically-born European No one is denying | :54:04. | :54:05. | |
the fact that that is the case. What I'm saying is the Schengen | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
arrangements, and the border issue, has created the circumstances | :54:09. | :54:16. | |
in which these people came in. Nick Clegg lost an election, | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
but has gained a sense of humour. When I worked in the European Union, | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
it took 15 years for the European Union to decide | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
the definition of chocolate. Anything that takes | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
a decade-and-a-half to decide I don't want my little children to | :54:32. | :54:33. | |
grow up in a United Kingdom which is broken apart, and | :54:34. | :54:45. | |
the remains of which are drifting That is not a proud future I want | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
my country, for my children, for my country, | :54:49. | :54:56. | |
not the proud future I would argue Yes, Nick Clegg being applauded | :54:57. | :54:58. | |
by a group of students. Nigel Farage, on the other hand, | :54:59. | :55:06. | |
went for I want you, please, to think | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
of Britain and the EU being In the early days, | :55:10. | :55:18. | |
it was pretty good. But it's been getting increasingly | :55:19. | :55:32. | |
rotten over the last 25 years. Of course, a lot of people said, no, | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
you must stay with him. I know he makes all the rules | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
and the laws in the house. I know he forbids you | :55:41. | :55:49. | |
from making your own friends. Then, the votes, done in the same | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
way as they do it in Parliament. The Oxford Union voting that Britain | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
and Europe are better together. And we've been joined by the | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
Ukip MP Douglas Carswell. Is this what it is going to be like, | :56:04. | :56:16. | |
debates like this? More evenhanded than yesterday. | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
Does this excite the voters? When people realise that we have been | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
part of this club for 40 years, it costs us ?350 million a day, enough | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
to build a new hospital every week, people will realise we could change | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
this and open ourselves up to the world and be an international | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
player. Rehashing these arguments, maybe | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
there are no new arguments to be made, but if we are looking at 18% | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
of undecided, is that what will sway them? | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
The extraordinary thing is how close both camps are. I will be interested | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
in Alan and his view. About the third have made up their | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
mind they are in favour of saying, but 30% going the other way. | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
Everything is to play for Hutcheon of staying. | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
Pragmatic, sensible economic debate is what is needed from our side to | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
win. More than half the public according to a recent poll Hutcheon | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
recent poll want to leave the European Union, the first time in | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
that monthly survey. That does not subvert -- surprise | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
me. A lot of people on my side of the | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
debate thought this would be a walk in the park. It won't be. | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
There are awful lot of people who will focus on this over the coming | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
months. I believe Britain is stronger and safer in Europe, better | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
off. That debate will happen to be had. I hope we can ignite the same | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
excitement as in Scotland. Britain, if we leave the EU, in Scotland, | :57:57. | :58:05. | |
where every vote counts, not like Parliamentary elections, including | :58:06. | :58:13. | |
Northern Ireland, I hope we can generate that enthusiasm. You talked | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
about the economics being Central, what about immigration? | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
That poll was done in light of the Paris attacks. Do you think that is | :58:21. | :58:27. | |
inflection of public anxiety? It would be unfortunate if anyone | :58:28. | :58:34. | |
used scare tactics... Has Nigel Farage done that? | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
We must make certain we do not say things that appeal to our worst | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
instincts. The way to win is to show people we can be a better country, | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
more international, we can control our borders but we're not going to | :58:48. | :58:53. | |
close them. We are part of a club which has lost control of migration | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
and monetary policy. If we take back control, that is the sensible thing. | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
We can be an international country, outward looking, open to the world, | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
but in control of our destiny. That is the tone we need to strike. | :59:08. | :59:15. | |
Douglas is the sensible voice of this debate and Nigel isn't. We | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
still have free movement outside the EU, we will be weaker. | :59:21. | :59:27. | |
Thanks to all my guests, especially Alan Johnson. | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
'..Viking, North Utsire, South Utsire, East Forties, | :59:32. | :59:35. |