07/01/2016 Daily Politics


07/01/2016

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by contemporary historian and crossbench peer Peter Hennessy for the latest political news and debate. With Ken Livingstone and Nigel Farage.


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Transcript


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Stock markets around the world plunged again this morning

:00:36.:00:40.

after trading in China's Shanghai stock exchange was suspended

:00:41.:00:43.

The London FTSE100 is down 3%, there have been similar

:00:44.:00:49.

falls in Frankfurt and Paris and New York is

:00:50.:00:51.

With such a dismal global backdrop, Chancellor George Osborne has warned

:00:52.:00:58.

that the British economy faces a dangerous "cocktail of threats"

:00:59.:01:01.

from falling stock markets, stagnant emerging markets

:01:02.:01:02.

Jeremy Corbyn's slow-motion Shadow Cabinet re-shuffle

:01:03.:01:16.

We'll be talking to Labour's Ken Livingstone.

:01:17.:01:25.

We'll be looking at Britain's nuclear deterrent.

:01:26.:01:32.

And Happy Birthday "Yes, Prime Minister"!

:01:33.:01:34.

The classic sitcom will be 30 years old this weekend.

:01:35.:01:38.

But does the script still ring true today?

:01:39.:01:45.

If the right people don't have power, do you know what happens? The

:01:46.:01:53.

wrong people get it. LAUGHTER Politicians, councillors. But aren't

:01:54.:01:59.

they supposed to in a democracy? This is a British democracy!

:02:00.:02:02.

All that in the next hour and with us for the duration his

:02:03.:02:05.

THE World expert on all things constituional.

:02:06.:02:10.

Now, first today, lets talk about reports that GCSE

:02:11.:02:19.

and A level exams could be bought forward this summer to take

:02:20.:02:22.

into account the impact of Ramadan, when Muslims fast

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It's thought the tests could be taken earlier in the day,

:02:25.:02:28.

when Muslim students are the least hungry,

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or even before the start of the traditional exam season

:02:30.:02:32.

So is this political correctness gone mad, as some tweets have said,

:02:33.:02:46.

or is this just sensible? Sensible and humane. I used to have some

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students when I was teaching at Queen Mary and the University of

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London who were Ramadan and they were very weak by the end of the

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fast. They would turn up, they were very conscientious, but it did have

:03:00.:03:03.

a lot of effect on them so I have a lot of sympathy. The Times must

:03:04.:03:06.

change because it hasn't become an issue that we have particularly

:03:07.:03:10.

covered in the past. It follows round the calendar, it comes forward

:03:11.:03:15.

every year, so at this point in the overall Ramadan calendar, it falls

:03:16.:03:19.

at exam time. But it must have fallen on exam time at some other

:03:20.:03:24.

stage? A long while ago. On that basis, they say they are not going

:03:25.:03:28.

to change the dates, the exam board, but they might on rescheduling in

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the mornings, just a big things easier. Good idea, sensible, not

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political correctness at all. Do you think it will question as some

:03:40.:03:44.

people have said an attack on British values? We are a society at

:03:45.:03:49.

the Bowman looking to fallout over rather than to fall in the over.

:03:50.:03:53.

There is enough to worry about without making farces where there is

:03:54.:03:56.

no need for a farce. And it seems now that they have taken a sensible

:03:57.:03:59.

no need for a farce. And it seems view, the exam boards, they might

:04:00.:04:03.

schedule it in the mornings, make -- no need for a farce. These think

:04:04.:04:13.

that will be that? -- a fuss. I hope so. He is an emollient mood.

:04:14.:04:16.

The question for today is all about the Labour reshuffle,

:04:17.:04:20.

which is technically still going on, but at the height of the drama,

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senior Labour officials were overheard discussing a mystery

:04:24.:04:25.

vegetable, but what was the vegetable?

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At the end of the show, Peter will no doubt give us

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Or an answer. It is indicative of the life I live that I know the

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answer to that question, I really need to get out more often in this

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New Year. Today, Chancellor George Osborne,

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will issue a warning that the UK economy is facing a "dangerous

:04:50.:04:51.

cocktail" of new global threats this year, including

:04:52.:04:54.

slowing global growth. Far cry from the optimistic tone

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of his Autumn Statement Mr Osborne is expected to tell

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business leaders that Britain risks going into decline if it

:05:04.:05:10.

eases up on austerity. He'll also say that anyone

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who thinks it's "mission accomplished" for the British

:05:17.:05:18.

economy is making a grave mistake. So what's got Gorgeous George,

:05:19.:05:26.

all shaken and stirred? Let's take a look at what's

:05:27.:05:28.

in the Chancellor's dangerous cocktail that could lead

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to such a hangover... The turmoil in the Middle East

:05:35.:05:39.

is one big fear which could have a knock on effect on our

:05:40.:05:42.

economy, as could low oil prices. They may seem good when we fill

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up our cars but there are concerns it could adversely affect

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the oil and gas industry as well as countries

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who rely on its exports, such as Brazil and Russia where

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Mr Osborne foresees "deep problems". The Chinese economy is another

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major worry, they had to suspend their stock market

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after shares fell by more than 7% for the second time this week,

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and many economists believe this year could see the first interest

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rate rise since 2007, which could be very bad news

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for people with large mortgages, as well as affecting businesses

:06:11.:06:13.

who want to borrow to expand. The Chancellor argues "the biggest

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risk is that people think that it's 'job done'", a clear indication

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that he intends to stay Speaking earlier, Mr Osborne

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outlined some of the things the government were trying to do

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to improve the economy. We do as a country need to invest in

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the long term, that is partly how we deal with these risks we face from

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abroad, like instability in big markets like China and Brazil, or

:06:52.:06:56.

problems in the Middle East. And today, we are launching our plans

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for a permanent international infrastructure so that Britain

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thinks long-term about the big building products we need. We have

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built on the big projects we have started like high-speed rail.

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And with us now, The Telegraph's Business Editor and economist

:07:12.:07:13.

Let's start with what has been happening in China and the fallout

:07:14.:07:21.

through the global stock markets. As I understand it, the People's Bank

:07:22.:07:27.

of China, the central bank, effectively devalued the Chinese

:07:28.:07:30.

currency yesterday. The consequence has been that markets around the

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world including Shanghai think the Chinese economy could be a lot

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weaker than we thought and therefore the global economy could be dragged

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further down by it. Absolutely, if you look at what is aptly --

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actually happening from trade patterns, shipping, it seems the

:07:49.:07:51.

Chinese economy has been doing worse than the official figures would

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suggest. It is very hard to know exactly how much worse but clearly

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China has slowed dramatically, and of course the authorities are trying

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to kick-start the economy again but it is clear that emerging market as

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a whole, their big crisis that led up last year is continuing and that

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will clearly have an effect on the UK economy. It is one of many

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reasons why the price of oil has collapsed so much also. What is

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happening in China is linked to the stagnation of the decline in

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emerging markets too, is that right? Because China, the great buyer of

:08:23.:08:26.

commodities in its smoke stack days are not buying those commodities in

:08:27.:08:30.

anything like it, so from oil hitting Russia, two other minerals

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hitting Brazil, it is pushing these emerging market into recession?

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Absolutely, they are completely connected with one another. It is no

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longer the case that the emerging markets produce raw material and the

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West buys them. China is one of the main buyers, it has been the engine

:08:47.:08:50.

of the world economy for at least a decade and one of the reason why the

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emerging markets as a whole has powered ahead. Now something of a

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reverse. Result is facing a bit of a recession and all of these problems

:08:58.:09:00.

all over the world, but it is not really new. It is a trend that has

:09:01.:09:05.

been coming on any year now. I want to ask Miss Bock -- Mr Osborne that

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in a minute. The final question on the global backdrop of the remarks

:09:11.:09:15.

made by the Chancellor on the economy, I see that the global stock

:09:16.:09:18.

markets in the first six days of this year have lost $2.5 trillion in

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value. That of course is people's pensions funds and savings and so

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on. Where do we go from here? Markets can be volatile, they can

:09:34.:09:36.

slump and then bounce back, but there is a big question about equity

:09:37.:09:41.

prices, stock markets, for quite a while now, the UK fell last year for

:09:42.:09:46.

example, America stand badly in terms of stock markets, and that is

:09:47.:09:48.

hitting people's wealth and the ability of companies to raise

:09:49.:09:54.

capital and invest. It is also sending jitters among investors and

:09:55.:09:57.

decision-makers. But I think ultimately all of these things are

:09:58.:10:01.

connected, and the collapse in the price of oil will have severe

:10:02.:10:03.

geopolitical consequences rather than direct economic consequences.

:10:04.:10:10.

So I think the biggest danger from the slump in the price of oil is

:10:11.:10:13.

what happens in the Middle East, what happens to Saudi Arabia. The

:10:14.:10:16.

secondary impact is these countries that are spending a lot of money in

:10:17.:10:26.

the UK, Qatar, they were spending huge amounts, buying companies, and

:10:27.:10:30.

all of that has come to a halt. Let's come then, we have this grim

:10:31.:10:34.

global backdrop coming into the Chancellor's remarks about how it

:10:35.:10:40.

means that Britain is nothing but out of the woods yet despite recent

:10:41.:10:43.

growth. What does the Chancellor know now that he didn't know when he

:10:44.:10:49.

made his optimistic Autumn Statement at the end of November? That is a

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very good question, and one which sadly I don't have the answer to,

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but one can surmise to things, one it is possible that tax receipts are

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continuing to be weak. But he knew the summer tax receipts were weak

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going into the Autumn Statement. Perhaps there is additional

:11:08.:11:10.

information now, perhaps it does look like his targets will not be

:11:11.:11:13.

met for the financial year as a whole. These kinds of numbers are

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very volatile, they can change, so that perhaps might be one possible

:11:18.:11:22.

explanation, I'm speculating here. He talks about the need for

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mission-critical, that we are not out of the woods, yet in the Autumn

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Statement he found on the courtesy of the Office for Budget

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Responsibility, 20 odd billion down the Treasury sofa. 27. He didn't use

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that to consolidate the budget, to tighten the belt. Yes, and that is a

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great paradox of his comments that he will be making today of course on

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austerity. He knew a version of all of this just a few months ago, and

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it is strange that he didn't continue this... He is open to

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criticism, the talks about China, we knew there were troubles, he talks

:12:05.:12:07.

about Russia, we know that is in recession, Brazil we have known

:12:08.:12:10.

since the autumn is in the worst recession for 30 years. We know the

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Chinese currency was devalued in the summer. Several times. None of this

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is new, extreme volatility, that happens, and I think the Chancellor

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should have been more prudent a few months ago, identity should have

:12:29.:12:30.

done what he did and I think he needs to keep a tight grip on public

:12:31.:12:34.

spending. What is your take on this, Peter? The Treasury always has this

:12:35.:12:44.

tight and deep pessimism in its DNA. But I think there is a lot on what

:12:45.:12:49.

the Chancellor is saying, there are multiple fragility is, and Horizon

:12:50.:12:53.

scanning is a perilous craft, but the problems don't come when there

:12:54.:12:58.

is a malign and unexpected, nation, if you get two hotting up at the

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same time, these fragility is, then the markets get spooked. That the

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Middle East and China. And also presidential election in the United

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States and autumn, so it will be a rocky year, but most years are

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rocky. At the moment. Almost any possible question to answer, but is

:13:20.:13:22.

this a major correction or is this the beginning of a slide into

:13:23.:13:28.

another recession? I don't think this is the start of a new major

:13:29.:13:32.

recession, I could be proved completely wrong in six months but I

:13:33.:13:35.

really don't think so, there are still quite a lot of growth to be

:13:36.:13:38.

had at the world economy. People still think the economy will grow

:13:39.:13:42.

but at a less strong rate. But I think it is a collection. There has

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been far too much froth in the economy, the Federal reserve

:13:49.:13:50.

starting to put up interest rates, things are changing and moving on

:13:51.:13:53.

and the economy has not fully readjusted from the bad days of the

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financial crisis. One final question I forgot to ask you, because you

:13:58.:14:01.

mentioned interest rates. I would suggest if the economy seemed to be

:14:02.:14:05.

slowing down a bit, talking about 2% rather than 2.5% growth, slowdown in

:14:06.:14:11.

the global economy, that although America has started to raise its

:14:12.:14:15.

rates, British rates may not rise this year. I agree, I don't think

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they will come I think he will have to wait even longer before interest

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rates go up. For a lot of people it is quite good news to end on, we

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better end there. Alastair Heathcote to talk you.

:14:28.:14:33.

Jeremy Corbyn finalised his Labour front bench

:14:34.:14:37.

team yesterday, filling posts left vacant by the resignation yesterday

:14:38.:14:40.

Kevan Jones, Jonathan Reynolds and Stephen Doughty stepped down,

:14:41.:14:43.

citing policy differences with Mr Corbyn and concern

:14:44.:14:45.

about the treatment of two sacked colleagues.

:14:46.:14:49.

The Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, dismissed the three

:14:50.:14:51.

MPs as part of "a narrow right-wing clique" who refused to accept

:14:52.:14:54.

Jeremy Corbyn's mandate from party members and supporters.

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And on Newsnight last night, Labour front bencher,

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wasn't particularly complimentary either.

:14:59.:15:00.

When you look at some of the other people,

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if you look at Jonathan, Reynolds, Mr Dugher,

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if you look at some of these others, what do they have in common?

:15:19.:15:22.

And what you are seeing is people that came up under a certain system,

:15:23.:15:27.

where you did politics at uni, you became a special advisor,

:15:28.:15:30.

you became an MP, you became a minister, who are rightfully upset

:15:31.:15:33.

because Jeremy has brought a whole load of new energy

:15:34.:15:35.

Well, Jonathan Reynolds hit back on twitter last night.

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Joining us now is the former Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone,

:15:43.:16:05.

Welcome to the Daily scam politics. Diane Abbott'sp comments, do you

:16:06.:16:19.

agree it has fuelled the in-fighting? No, Diane is responding

:16:20.:16:25.

to this wave of backstabbing by these dis - dis - dis-affected

:16:26.:16:30.

little group of old Blairites. What we have to remember is Jeremy has

:16:31.:16:34.

inherited a Parliamentary Labour Party well to the right of the

:16:35.:16:40.

membership and partly because that's under four general elections under

:16:41.:16:49.

Blair and Brown, Labour weren't able to select the candidates they want

:16:50.:16:54.

and keep critical of foreign policy or wanted to crackdown on tax on big

:16:55.:16:59.

corporations never got into the list. What those MPs cannot now do

:17:00.:17:06.

is say they have the right to overrule the party membership. You

:17:07.:17:10.

have called them disaffected Blairites. This is about personal

:17:11.:17:14.

insults. Do you not think her comments, which proved to be wrong

:17:15.:17:19.

in terms of accusing Jonathan Reynolds of being a special advisor

:17:20.:17:23.

is just fuelling the sort of tone and language you used there? She is

:17:24.:17:29.

responding to a consistent attempt by a disaffected group of MPs to

:17:30.:17:34.

undermine Jeremy Corbyn since the day he was elected. Well, Jonathan

:17:35.:17:40.

Reynolds, MacFadden and Dugher. Would you put them in that category?

:17:41.:17:45.

All of them. We have had all the leaks, coming from Jeremy Corbyn's

:17:46.:17:49.

key advisors. We were being told I was going to be made a member of the

:17:50.:17:53.

House of Lords and in the Shadow Cabinet. We knocked that on the

:17:54.:17:57.

head. I met some of the advisors over the last couple of weeks. They

:17:58.:18:00.

were really distraught at the amount of time they were having to waste

:18:01.:18:04.

dealing with the leaks to the press about how Jeremy was going to have a

:18:05.:18:07.

revenge reshuffle which anyone who voted for Syria would be sacked.

:18:08.:18:11.

That turned out not to be true. All these people are doing is allowing

:18:12.:18:15.

the Tory press to go on endlesslied about the conflicts between the

:18:16.:18:17.

Labour Party, rather than focussing on the economic alternative that

:18:18.:18:21.

John McDonnell and Jeremy are proposing. They will have to answer

:18:22.:18:26.

for themselves to some extent but John McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor

:18:27.:18:29.

has also called the three shadow ministers who resigned a narrow

:18:30.:18:36.

right-wing clique. The three resignations following on from the

:18:37.:18:40.

sacking of Pat McFadden and he was sack fwrd being disloyal. Did you

:18:41.:18:43.

think he had been disloyal? -- for being? Absolutely. That question he

:18:44.:18:48.

asked was specifically aimed. Over what? Over what motivates

:18:49.:18:53.

terrorists. The question he asked in Parliament was specifically done to

:18:54.:18:55.

effectively undermine the position Jeremy is putting. A lot of people

:18:56.:19:00.

like pact MacFadden who were central to Tony Blair's Government have

:19:01.:19:03.

never come to terms with the fact that invading Iraq was a disaster T

:19:04.:19:08.

led to 1 million people, almost all of them innocent civilians, men,

:19:09.:19:10.

women and children being killed. They can't ever come to terms when

:19:11.:19:17.

people like myself or Jeremy say - our interventions, overthrowing

:19:18.:19:18.

governments and trying to control the oil in the Middle East is a big

:19:19.:19:24.

factor in fuelling terrorism. Hang on a second, so Pat McFadden said in

:19:25.:19:29.

the Commons, he asked the Prime Minister to reject the view of

:19:30.:19:34.

seeing terrorists acts as always being a response or reaction to what

:19:35.:19:39.

we in the West do, that's why he was sacked. You dis'gree with that

:19:40.:19:45.

statement? I absolutely disagree. So the West brings it on itself. Just

:19:46.:19:50.

to be clear, as you said on Yes Time. That the West brings the

:19:51.:19:55.

terrorist attacks, like 7/7, the bombings on itself. No, no. We

:19:56.:20:01.

don't. The vast majority of people who get killed are innocent

:20:02.:20:03.

civilians. We have to recognise that Tony Blair was told, when he took

:20:04.:20:08.

the decision to invade Iraq, he was told by the Security Service, this

:20:09.:20:12.

will make us an increased risk of being subject to terrorist attacks.

:20:13.:20:16.

I know that because we were trying to defend ourselves. I need to pull

:20:17.:20:21.

you up. You said you didn't say that. In November you said on

:20:22.:20:24.

Question Time, Tony Blair bore responsibility for the London

:20:25.:20:28.

poppings and you went on to say the 7/7 bombers did the killings because

:20:29.:20:31.

of our invasion oof I rack. They gave their lives and said what they

:20:32.:20:36.

believed and took Londoners' lives in protest of the invasion of Iraq.

:20:37.:20:40.

Do you stand by the comments that you bring the things on ourself? You

:20:41.:20:45.

have to go and look at the messages they left on their websites where

:20:46.:20:48.

they were saying that they were doing this because of the way the

:20:49.:20:52.

West interintervenes in the Middle East. Particularly the invasion of

:20:53.:20:56.

Iraq. But more than that. They have had Iran subject to nearly a decade

:20:57.:21:02.

of really damaging sanctions because we fear they might get nuclear

:21:03.:21:07.

weapons yet Israel brought nuclear weapons into the Middle East and has

:21:08.:21:11.

had them for nearly 50 years and this has never been any sanctions.

:21:12.:21:15.

It is a double standard that turns many angry young Muslims into

:21:16.:21:19.

thinking -- we are being treated as second class citizens in our own

:21:20.:21:23.

country. You know it caused upset amongst the families of the victims

:21:24.:21:30.

of 7/7, the words you used. So, to be clear, the leader lead shorep,

:21:31.:21:36.

and people like you, believe that the actions of the 7/7 bombers were

:21:37.:21:41.

as a direct result of the actions the West take. Well that's what the

:21:42.:21:50.

terrorists said. Let's move on to defence. Maria Eagles. Would you

:21:51.:21:57.

like to have kept her? She has been a friend of mine. You would liked

:21:58.:22:03.

her to have stayed I will r I would have been happy working with her or

:22:04.:22:07.

Emily. Whether it was going to be Maria or Emily, we have to look at

:22:08.:22:10.

the facts. When Tony Blair decided he wanted four new nuclear

:22:11.:22:16.

submarines they said it would cost ?21 billion. Billion, the Government

:22:17.:22:24.

has set aside 41 billion now. A lot of your viewers would rather it

:22:25.:22:29.

stayed as flood defences. What is the timetable in your mind, we will

:22:30.:22:33.

leave the substance to one side? The timetable in your mind, when will

:22:34.:22:37.

Labour have a settled position on whether or not to renew the Trident

:22:38.:22:43.

missile system? If we are lucky it will be before David Cameron

:22:44.:22:46.

organisations a vote in the House of Commons, or it could take rate right

:22:47.:22:50.

the way through to the summer. We have to do a lot of detailed

:22:51.:22:53.

academic research on this. We have been told a lot of old nonsense

:22:54.:22:57.

about how we have an independent deterrent. The suggestion that they

:22:58.:23:01.

won't be independent. There is the latest report two years ago to the

:23:02.:23:05.

Pentagon saying that Russia and China the abilities through a cyber

:23:06.:23:10.

attack it make our weapons inoperable. The timetable is

:23:11.:23:13.

quicker. Before I bring in Peter when he iscy. You must

:23:14.:23:17.

quicker. Before I bring in Peter disappointed that Hilary Benn wasn't

:23:18.:23:20.

removed, earlier in the week you said he should have been removed

:23:21.:23:27.

because he held a contradictory opinion. 'Twas a mistake? They had a

:23:28.:23:36.

long discussion. It took about 20 hours. They have had come to the

:23:37.:23:41.

understanding where we won't have the Labour Leader opening with one

:23:42.:23:45.

line and the Shadow Foreign Secretary closing with another. I

:23:46.:23:48.

notice with the success of the Oldham by-election, the best result

:23:49.:23:54.

in that constituent, there has been a lot less criticism, including

:23:55.:23:58.

Hilary, about Jeremy and its policies.

:23:59.:24:03.

Peter Hennessey, looking at it from the outside, how does the Labour

:24:04.:24:07.

Leader look to you? I'm not a politician, I'm a cross-bench member

:24:08.:24:11.

of the House of Lords. It is agony to see this drama in the late. Our

:24:12.:24:14.

parliamentary system doesn't work unless we have a vibrant and viable

:24:15.:24:19.

opposition on the tail. Government. It debraids and it is bad for the

:24:20.:24:22.

Government and opposition and the country. And to he soo the Labour

:24:23.:24:26.

Party eating itself, day by day is extraordinary. What we are

:24:27.:24:30.

witnessing is a process of genetically modified of the Labour

:24:31.:24:35.

Party. It is a very different Labour Party I think Ken would agree from

:24:36.:24:40.

the run-up to the election, the quad ruling of the membership. It will be

:24:41.:24:44.

an entirely different Labour Party. I don't know Jeremy Corbyn. I'm

:24:45.:24:51.

fascinated by him, this man of herb iviour ways and carnivorous views is

:24:52.:24:56.

deeply intriguing. It seems to me his cunning plan, perhaps not

:24:57.:25:01.

cunning s to genetically modify the membership and the apex of the

:25:02.:25:04.

Labour Party, leaving the squeezed middle which happens to be the bulk

:25:05.:25:07.

of the MPs in the Parliamentary Labour Party. What really worries me

:25:08.:25:11.

is this Labour Party eating itself and all its investous energy going

:25:12.:25:16.

into the kind of things Ken has been talking about and we have been

:25:17.:25:19.

obsessing about in the media for weeks now, almost since the day or

:25:20.:25:22.

well, since the hour he was elected leader. It is a digs straction from

:25:23.:25:26.

the primary function of the Labour Party to be the viable opposition in

:25:27.:25:29.

the House of Commons. -- it is a distraction.

:25:30.:25:31.

Let's talk more about Trident itself. While we have been talking,

:25:32.:25:36.

breaking news t remains tense on the streets of Paris today. The

:25:37.:25:41.

anniversary of the Charlie Hebdo and a man has been shot by the police on

:25:42.:25:46.

the streets of Paris trying to enter a police station. According to

:25:47.:25:49.

reports he was carrying a knife and wearing suicide vest. According to

:25:50.:25:55.

the ministry of interior in Paris he shouted Allahu Akbar as he trued to

:25:56.:25:59.

enter the station. Anyway, he was shot in the way in. That will add to

:26:00.:26:04.

the tensions. We will you more as we get it. On the anniversary of

:26:05.:26:08.

Charlie Hebb doe. You will probably remember if you watch, we were live

:26:09.:26:10.

on air as that unfolded. So, Jeremy Corbyn's got a brand

:26:11.:26:13.

new Shadow Defence Secretary, and she's not that keen on keeping

:26:14.:26:15.

up Britain's nuclear deterrent. I think it's fair to say,

:26:16.:26:18.

Emily Thornberry wouldn't get The move comes before a debate,

:26:19.:26:20.

and vote, on the so-called "maingate" decision to order four

:26:21.:26:26.

new Vanguard nuclear-armed submarines to be based

:26:27.:26:28.

at the Faslane naval The vote is expected

:26:29.:26:30.

later this year. Here's our Giles to

:26:31.:26:34.

get us up to speed. To its supporters, it is CAS-D, the

:26:35.:26:47.

Continuous At Sea Deterrent, responsible for keeping the UK safe.

:26:48.:26:53.

To its opponents, it's immoral, vastly expensive, outmoded and

:26:54.:26:57.

irrelevant. Roger one, Roger two. To those who work on board, it's

:26:58.:27:02.

operation Operation Relentless. It is a correctly awe tenticated fire

:27:03.:27:07.

control message. I concur. Ship control, take the ship for a weapons

:27:08.:27:13.

test. Four submarines with nuclear war head carrying type 2 D5 nuclear

:27:14.:27:18.

missiles in rotation of service, re-fit training and operation, such

:27:19.:27:22.

that one is at sea hidden every second of every day, if the Prime

:27:23.:27:25.

Minister ever wanted to authorise a new clear strike. Much is made of

:27:26.:27:33.

renewing Trident. But actually, we are doing no such ho -- thing. It is

:27:34.:27:42.

to do with us and the Americans a different decision for a politician.

:27:43.:27:45.

We are looking at replacing the carriers of the missile. The Trident

:27:46.:27:50.

missile won't be up for discussion until 2030, 20 #450e. Parliament has

:27:51.:27:56.

already voted, in 2007, by 409 votes by 261 to commit to the submarine

:27:57.:28:03.

successor programme. It's the final no-going back vote, called Maingate

:28:04.:28:06.

that is expected soon, and now things have changed.

:28:07.:28:12.

As we speak, the Conservative and Labour Parties are still committed

:28:13.:28:15.

to renewal. The Tories will continue to be.

:28:16.:28:18.

But Jeremy Corbyn leads the Labour Party now.

:28:19.:28:24.

He's long been against renewal, has said, if in number 10 he wouldn't

:28:25.:28:29.

push the button, is having a review of Labour's policy and has just

:28:30.:28:33.

replaced his defence spokesperson from one in favour to one who isn't

:28:34.:28:38.

I don't think being against nuclear weapons is that Saddam Husseiny. If

:28:39.:28:42.

you look at how much it is going to cost P #13ds 00 billion on weapons

:28:43.:28:47.

we won't be in charge of, the Americans will be in charge of. Will

:28:48.:28:50.

he ever want to use? The ultimate weapons of mass destruction. As it

:28:51.:28:56.

happens, as a signatory to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty,

:28:57.:29:00.

under Article 6, the UK is committed to nuclear disarmament over time.

:29:01.:29:04.

And it is not just about Labour. The Lib Dems don't favour like-for-like

:29:05.:29:08.

replacement and a former Conservative Defence Secretary is

:29:09.:29:10.

very candid. It is neither independent because we couldn't use

:29:11.:29:14.

it without the Americans, neither is it any sort of deterrent because now

:29:15.:29:19.

largely we are facing the sorts of enemies, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda who

:29:20.:29:20.

cannot be deterred enemies, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda who

:29:21.:29:24.

weapons. Its a tremendous waste of money. There are those who agree,

:29:25.:29:30.

though many from parts of the more conventional military that have

:29:31.:29:34.

often eyed Trident's funding with envy, especially when committed to

:29:35.:29:39.

difficult combat missions but it won't takes a North Korean lady in

:29:40.:29:44.

pink as a reminder that there are states with nuclear weapons and

:29:45.:29:48.

wants more. The costs are in the hundreds of billions. It is hard to

:29:49.:29:52.

know because of the classified nature of the work. The subs won't

:29:53.:29:59.

be in the water until 2028. But the degate will be remains and the

:30:00.:30:03.

submarine will still be patrolling. And with us now, Chair

:30:04.:30:06.

of the Defence Select Committee, Conservative MP, Julien Lewis

:30:07.:30:08.

and Ken Livingstone who is in charge of Labour's Defence Review

:30:09.:30:11.

is still with us. Ken, you are leading the Labour

:30:12.:30:22.

defence review into Trident, along with the new Shadow Secretary, Emily

:30:23.:30:27.

Thornberry. You are both opposed to renewing Trident. Your leader of the

:30:28.:30:33.

party is opposed to renewing it, the chances of you coming out in favour

:30:34.:30:38.

of it, would I say are zero, sthant right? 00, because there are

:30:39.:30:46.

different options here, do we keep them existing ones to the end of

:30:47.:30:53.

their life, or should we spend ?41 billion on getting four new

:30:54.:30:56.

submarines and I don't think that is the best use of money. So you have

:30:57.:31:05.

made up your the best use of money. So you have

:31:06.:31:14.

Trident? If someone can demonstrate that it is worthwhile, I can be

:31:15.:31:22.

suspended. You have always been a unilateral disarmament a perfectly

:31:23.:31:25.

principled position to take it has been your long-held view, nothing

:31:26.:31:28.

could be said to change mind on that, that is the honest truth, be

:31:29.:31:34.

honest with our viewers on this. No, no, if you are America or Russia,

:31:35.:31:39.

you have a vast military nuclear Arsenal, you can start a war and win

:31:40.:31:43.

it. We have just enough nuclear weapons to start a war, not to win

:31:44.:31:47.

it. So it would be a suicide mission to launch an attack on Russia. What

:31:48.:31:53.

evidence is there that we would ever use nuclear weapons to start a war?

:31:54.:31:59.

What is the point of having them otherwise? To stop people attacking

:32:00.:32:06.

you. No, no, they didn't stop the Argentinians invading the Falkland

:32:07.:32:09.

Islands, and that I think is the most striking situation here. That

:32:10.:32:15.

demonstrated having nuclear weapons did not... They were never designed

:32:16.:32:20.

to stop Argentina invading the Falkland Islands, that is not the

:32:21.:32:23.

purpose of Britain's nuclear deterrent, you know that and I know

:32:24.:32:28.

that. But if we got rid of our nuclear deterrent, would you be

:32:29.:32:32.

happy to live under the Nato American nuclear deterrent? That is

:32:33.:32:38.

the reality of this. There is a vast Russian Arsenal, a vast American

:32:39.:32:42.

Arsenal, Britain and France are just side shows. But we are in a nuclear

:32:43.:32:47.

alliance with America, would you be happy if we declared unilateral

:32:48.:32:52.

nuclear disarmament, which is essentially your position, would you

:32:53.:32:57.

be happy to live under an American nuclear umbrella? We are, there is

:32:58.:33:01.

nothing we can do about it. Are you in favour of it? We are actually

:33:02.:33:10.

allies with America, and I know that this pleases you. I am just trying

:33:11.:33:14.

to work out would it be moral to get rid of our nuclear weapons but still

:33:15.:33:18.

be happy to live under the nuclear protection of the United States? You

:33:19.:33:24.

don't have a choice. America is the main nuclear power in the West. The

:33:25.:33:30.

issue is we in favour of being attacked by Russia? That is

:33:31.:33:34.

nonsense. We could leave Nato then we wouldn't be under American

:33:35.:33:37.

nuclear protection, should we do that? You still work, because

:33:38.:33:43.

America, if there is an American -- an invasion of anywhere in Western

:33:44.:33:46.

Europe, would use its nuclear weapons against Russia. It is a

:33:47.:33:51.

disastrous economic state, it hasn't got the resources to actually launch

:33:52.:33:56.

a world war. There is no prospect of that happening. Should we leave

:33:57.:34:01.

Nato? That is one of the things we will look at, many people would want

:34:02.:34:05.

to do that, I don't think it is a particularly big issue because of

:34:06.:34:09.

the Cold War it was, it isn't now. Russia is not planning to invade the

:34:10.:34:14.

West. Are you sound as part of your defence review, not only are you

:34:15.:34:18.

looking we should renew the nuclear deterrent but you are also looking

:34:19.:34:21.

at whether we should remain members of Nato or not? There will be people

:34:22.:34:27.

making those suggestions. For me, the main consideration is it doesn't

:34:28.:34:33.

really matter if you are in Nato or not terribly much because the Cold

:34:34.:34:37.

War is over. If we are to stay in Nato, what is its role going to be?

:34:38.:34:41.

Invading more countries in the Middle East? I am not in favour of

:34:42.:34:49.

that. We are signed up to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty,

:34:50.:34:51.

the second pillar of that states that nuclear weapons should pursue

:34:52.:34:56.

disarmament, will pursue disarmament, how can we remain part

:34:57.:35:01.

of that treaty and renewed Trident? You have to look at the treaty

:35:02.:35:06.

provision in full, and what it actually says, and funnily enough I

:35:07.:35:09.

thought you might bring it up, is that each of the parties undertakes

:35:10.:35:13.

to pursue negotiations on good faith on effective measures in Malaysian

:35:14.:35:17.

to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and a...

:35:18.:35:26.

Surely renewing Trident is an escalation of the nuclear arms race?

:35:27.:35:31.

No, it isn't, first of all there will be no change under Trident and

:35:32.:35:35.

what is proposed now, because the Trident missiles and the warheads at

:35:36.:35:39.

many years of life left in them yet. All we are doing at the moment is

:35:40.:35:43.

renewing four submarines that carry the missiles, but coming back to the

:35:44.:35:47.

treaty, the point about it is the provision of the treaty is to end

:35:48.:35:51.

the nuclear arms race. But it is not. As Ken Livingstone said, the

:35:52.:35:56.

Russians and the Americans have actually got much larger arsenals

:35:57.:36:02.

than we have, they have got massive overkill capacity, we have a

:36:03.:36:05.

strategic minimum nuclear deterrent. Where he is wrong, I must make this

:36:06.:36:09.

point, is in saying that we are a sideshow. We can inflict

:36:10.:36:15.

unacceptable damage. It makes no difference to us if another country

:36:16.:36:19.

can annihilate as 50 times over. Having signed a treaty meant to stop

:36:20.:36:25.

proliferation, if we renew Trident will become part of the nuclear arms

:36:26.:36:29.

race, the Iranians have tried to develop one, we have seen what North

:36:30.:36:33.

Korea may have been trying to do, Pakistan is going through a massive

:36:34.:36:38.

modernisation... You are absolutely wrong! We do not become part of the

:36:39.:36:41.

nuclear arms race, we have never been part of the nuclear arms race,

:36:42.:36:44.

neither have France, neither have China. All three of the five powers

:36:45.:36:49.

that were allowed to have nuclear weapons under the treaty, all three,

:36:50.:36:57.

China, France and ourselves have pursued a policy of minimum

:36:58.:36:59.

strategic nuclear deterrence, and it has been the superpowers that were

:37:00.:37:03.

arms racing, and over the years since the end of the Cold War, their

:37:04.:37:08.

totals have come down. Who is Trident defending us from? Against

:37:09.:37:14.

any future potential aggressor who might blackmail or attack us with

:37:15.:37:20.

nuclear weapons was that who? If I knew that, I would be a politician,

:37:21.:37:26.

I must answer the question if you ask it, I would be writing old Moore

:37:27.:37:30.

's almanac, because the history of almost all the wars, with the

:37:31.:37:33.

possible exception of World War II, that we have been involved in

:37:34.:37:36.

throughout the 20th century is that we never had much advance warning of

:37:37.:37:40.

who the aggressor was going to be. These things take us by surprise or

:37:41.:37:45.

at very short notice. Peter Hennessy, Ken Livingstone says two

:37:46.:37:50.

things, one that our independent nuclear deterrent is not independent

:37:51.:37:54.

and we could not use it without American approval, and secondly that

:37:55.:37:58.

it is highly honourable, that the Russians and Chinese could probably

:37:59.:38:02.

take it out in a cyber attack anyway so would-be Rhoose -- useless, is he

:38:03.:38:07.

right? Separate from anything to do with the internet, so it is cyber

:38:08.:38:15.

proof. Just to check, our deterrent is cyber proof? The site site -- the

:38:16.:38:21.

command and control, from the Prime Minister to the captain of the boat

:38:22.:38:26.

is quite removed from any cyber attack because it is old technology,

:38:27.:38:30.

it is not in the modern age. Air gap. That is the technical term. It

:38:31.:38:38.

is also operationally independent from the United States, the United

:38:39.:38:41.

States president is the one who could really disarm us but he could

:38:42.:38:46.

do that by 1963 Polaris sales agreement, and within about a year

:38:47.:38:50.

we would be out of the business. Because of needing the missiles. But

:38:51.:38:57.

operationally, is our deterrent independent or not? It is, and in a

:38:58.:39:01.

book I published just before Christmas, we have a letter from

:39:02.:39:04.

Frank Miller, who was the leading figure in the Pentagon throughout

:39:05.:39:09.

several administrations and out with the British to Tarrant, saying in

:39:10.:39:11.

cold print for the first time a thing that has happened

:39:12.:39:15.

unequivocally, that it is operationally independent. There is

:39:16.:39:18.

no switch the United States president can flick to stop a

:39:19.:39:22.

British ballistic missile flying, not that there is any intention to

:39:23.:39:27.

let a British ballistic missile fly. Ken Livingstone, do you think you

:39:28.:39:30.

should call it a Hennessy to your enquiry to find out why you are

:39:31.:39:34.

wrong of it being vulnerable to cyber attacks and that it is

:39:35.:39:38.

operationally independent? The simple fact is a scientific report

:39:39.:39:48.

for the Pentagon in 2013 said our nuclear weapons were subject to a

:39:49.:39:50.

cyber attack, other people disagreeing with that. One of the

:39:51.:39:53.

reasons we are having a defence review, we were to try to get a copy

:39:54.:39:56.

of that report and get people who are criticising it to see if it is

:39:57.:40:01.

true or not. This is the problem. Earlier you claimed that it was.

:40:02.:40:06.

That it was subject to cyber attack that was your view. Now you are

:40:07.:40:12.

saying it is a matter of debate. That report says we are subject to a

:40:13.:40:15.

cyber attack. We are clearly going to have a debate and try to examine

:40:16.:40:19.

it. If it turns out not to be true, that is something we can dismiss but

:40:20.:40:23.

we want to test that, because it will be vast sums of new money.

:40:24.:40:28.

Should you test it before you make the statements about it? I asked --

:40:29.:40:33.

you ask me a question, I told you what we know already, there has been

:40:34.:40:36.

a report to the Pentagon saying we are subject to a cyber attack, let's

:40:37.:40:41.

see if it is true or not. Julian Lewis, is there a Pentagon report

:40:42.:40:47.

that says we could be subject to a cyber attack? I read the newspaper

:40:48.:40:51.

accounts of these reports, and it is highly speculative. Not entirely

:40:52.:40:58.

without grounds then. There is a document from some people who say

:40:59.:41:02.

this might be the case and it has been authoritatively rebutted by no

:41:03.:41:07.

less a person than Dr Frank Miller, who is the key person in this area.

:41:08.:41:15.

A very simple thing, Jeremy Corbyn is utterly sincere in his opposition

:41:16.:41:19.

to British nuclear weapons come about the difference is Jeremy is

:41:20.:41:22.

not doing what Kerry is doing, Jeremy Zuttah open about it, Ken is

:41:23.:41:26.

pretending to have an open mind. Viewers will make their mind up

:41:27.:41:30.

about that. We will have to leave it there. -- is open about it.

:41:31.:41:35.

David Cameron is on another round of talks with his European

:41:36.:41:38.

chums, ahead of the referendum on whether the UK stays or leaves

:41:39.:41:41.

He's been meeting the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel,

:41:42.:41:44.

in Bavaria before heading off for discussions in Budapest

:41:45.:41:46.

with his Hungarian counterpart, Victor Orban.

:41:47.:41:47.

This morning, the PM claimed the talks were going well.

:41:48.:41:54.

I am even more confident after the excellent discussions I have had

:41:55.:41:58.

here in Bavaria with colleagues in the CSU that these things are

:41:59.:42:02.

possible, not just good for Britain but good for Europe, not simply

:42:03.:42:05.

because other European countries will benefit by Britain continuing

:42:06.:42:11.

to be a member of Europe, but I think it is important that this

:42:12.:42:14.

organisation shows it has the flexibility of a network and can

:42:15.:42:17.

address concerns of individual members, rather than the rigidity of

:42:18.:42:21.

a block. I am confident we can reach good conclusions but it will take a

:42:22.:42:25.

lot of hard work, but I have been very heartened by the goodwill I

:42:26.:42:29.

felt from fellow sister party members in the CSU here in Bavaria

:42:30.:42:31.

today. With us now, clinical Well, clinical this morning the UKIP

:42:32.:42:40.

Leader, Nigel Farage, politicians to put their political

:42:41.:42:42.

differences aside ahead of the EU know one should really be amazed

:42:43.:42:51.

that you two are joining forces, Nigel? The story over the last few

:42:52.:42:55.

months has been that the leave campaign is divided, they are at

:42:56.:42:58.

each other's throats, people are vying for position, and what this

:42:59.:43:03.

initiative led by Peter, and I am just a foot soldier following and

:43:04.:43:06.

hoping, there will be six of us on the platform in a couple of weeks'

:43:07.:43:10.

time and it will be the first of the big rolling series of meetings that

:43:11.:43:13.

will go right across the United Kingdom. There was a big positive

:43:14.:43:17.

message, what other difference is we might have had, irrelevant compared

:43:18.:43:22.

to what we see is the most important vote we will have in our lifetimes.

:43:23.:43:26.

You agree on that but lots of other things as well. Ruud where you are

:43:27.:43:32.

slightly wrong, go, grassroots out, that is a organisation set up by

:43:33.:43:37.

myself, we're bringing together Labour, Conservative, Ukip, DUP and

:43:38.:43:43.

nonaligned to work together at grassroots. Whatever the different

:43:44.:43:47.

people argue about, locally we are going to work together as one team

:43:48.:43:52.

and that is what is new. That has never happened before. What about

:43:53.:43:57.

the other groups? You say you have been united, but there have been

:43:58.:44:01.

problems and splits. There have been the two groups and there has been

:44:02.:44:04.

evidence for it in the sense that there has been infighting between

:44:05.:44:08.

yourself and Mr Carswell. I said quite the opposite because Mr

:44:09.:44:12.

Carswell backs one of those two groups that are vying for the

:44:13.:44:16.

umbrella group. We have no idea when the referendum will be. You said it

:44:17.:44:20.

would be in June. You almost made a bet on this programme. It may well

:44:21.:44:27.

be, but the point about Go, it is let's get off our backsides, get out

:44:28.:44:30.

and get campaigning and that is what we will do. Are you talking to

:44:31.:44:35.

Eurosceptic ministers who will now be offered a campaign freely? Have

:44:36.:44:40.

you talked to? LAUGHTER Eurosceptic ministers. Names,

:44:41.:44:45.

please! You know that they can't actually come out until the

:44:46.:44:49.

negotiations are finished, which will probably be in February, but

:44:50.:44:52.

there are ministers talking to us now. We will be setting up Go groups

:44:53.:44:58.

across the country everywhere, it is the working together. It is the

:44:59.:45:02.

first time I have ever known Labour, Ukip, conservatives working together

:45:03.:45:04.

on the ground and that is the key thing. From eight Go point of view,

:45:05.:45:11.

we don't care who gets negotiation, but you are talking about two

:45:12.:45:14.

groups, there are actually about 40 groups. We are getting them united

:45:15.:45:21.

on the ground. You cannot wait until mid-June to do it, we have to get up

:45:22.:45:24.

and running now and that is what we are doing. What about Boris

:45:25.:45:28.

Johnson's comments this morning, sounding pretty Eurosceptic, or

:45:29.:45:32.

hedging his bets one might say. He keeps on doing this! O We discussed

:45:33.:45:39.

this earlier. We want Boris Johnson and as many high-profile figures as

:45:40.:45:43.

possible, who knows, maybe even the Prime Minister. He might come back

:45:44.:45:46.

disappointed. Due believe that? Not for a moment. I asked in the Commons

:45:47.:45:51.

whether he would liked to join Go. He said he would consider it and

:45:52.:45:56.

make his decision after negotiation. And wouldn't it be wonderful if the

:45:57.:45:59.

Prime Minister decided to campaign to leave the EU. I think that would

:46:00.:46:05.

help enormously. Are you an in or outer? Aim I'm remain. I can't wait

:46:06.:46:14.

for the Kettering. We have not been able to handy it since Monet turned

:46:15.:46:20.

up from Paris, with a coal and steel plan. The reason we cannot handle

:46:21.:46:25.

it, it is not left-right, our country is not he auto quipped to

:46:26.:46:29.

handle the European question, it busts ups parties and families and

:46:30.:46:34.

also, I don't want to be unkind. You are both in benign mood, so am I.

:46:35.:46:41.

Your side of the argument is is lop Trotskyite in its capacity to have

:46:42.:46:44.

splits. If you can pull it off, it is quite something. That's the point

:46:45.:46:48.

about it. The youngest Conservative MP, is a founder member of Go. He is

:46:49.:46:53.

not old or young, it is cross-party, cross-age. Fascinating, though this

:46:54.:47:01.

is, we have to stop it there. The latest news from Paris is the

:47:02.:47:05.

man who tried to enter the police station with a knife and perhaps an

:47:06.:47:09.

explosive vest has been shot dead by the police.

:47:10.:47:11.

Now to the UK's relationship with Saudi Arabia -

:47:12.:47:13.

because the Government has been criticised for failing to condemn,

:47:14.:47:15.

directly, the execution of a prominent Shia cleric at the weekend

:47:16.:47:18.

as part of a mass execution of 47 alleged terrorists.

:47:19.:47:21.

Instead, a junior Foreign Office Minister expressed "disappointment"

:47:22.:47:23.

The UK-Saudi relationship was dismissed as sycophantic

:47:24.:47:27.

by the Liberal Democrat leader, Tim Farron, and Labour called

:47:28.:47:30.

for an end to judicial cooperation with Riyadh.

:47:31.:47:33.

Let's talk now to Jane Kinninmont from Chatham House.

:47:34.:47:42.

How important is the British relationship to Britain w Saudi

:47:43.:47:50.

Arabia? It's an important trade partner and also an important

:47:51.:47:55.

partner in counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing. All this in

:47:56.:47:59.

the context of a Middle East where many of the traditional governments

:48:00.:48:05.

had been massively weakened over the past few years and the gulf

:48:06.:48:11.

government are some of the few still standing. In the be stand-off

:48:12.:48:15.

between Iran and Saudi Arabia and we have learned this morning, at least

:48:16.:48:19.

the Iranians are claiming their diplomatic quarters in the 'em very

:48:20.:48:26.

has been bombed by Saudi jets, they are both fighting a proxy war there,

:48:27.:48:31.

the Iranians and Saudis. Does Britain have a side? Are Saudis

:48:32.:48:37.

allies and Iran not? Britain has traditionally been closer to Saudi

:48:38.:48:41.

Arabia but is trying to balance that relationship with Iran, even as both

:48:42.:48:44.

countries abuse human rights and are stepping up the ruse of the death

:48:45.:48:48.

penal titch but one of the reasons that Saudi Arabia is currently quite

:48:49.:48:53.

on the defences, is that it has a fear that its Western allies are on

:48:54.:48:57.

the brink of eye ban donning it in favour of Iran. That fear is

:48:58.:49:01.

misplaced and everstated but in Riyadh, it is very real. Thank you

:49:02.:49:03.

for joining us this morning. And we're joined now

:49:04.:49:05.

by the Conservative MP and member of the Foreign Affairs Select

:49:06.:49:08.

Committee, Daniel Kawczynski, Nigel Farage, you have talked about

:49:09.:49:17.

Britain having, "reshi its relationship" is a yudy oar andia.

:49:18.:49:23.

We are always saying they are great friends of ours and trading

:49:24.:49:26.

partners. We do a lot of trade but it is interesting, if you talk to

:49:27.:49:30.

experts on the growth of jihad #i678, extremism, whether in this

:49:31.:49:34.

country or across the rest of Europe. Every single independent

:49:35.:49:38.

expert would say the big change was large amounts of Saudi money, coming

:49:39.:49:41.

into the mosque, pushing an interpretation of the Koran which is

:49:42.:49:45.

extreme indeed. Look at what has been happening in Syria Ian Iraq. I

:49:46.:49:52.

understand that. That's the case Forestieri a thinking of the the

:49:53.:49:57.

financing. But what would a rethink mean? I think it would mean that we

:49:58.:50:02.

would actually have to make sure that if Saudi money is coming into

:50:03.:50:07.

British mosques and funding extremism, it would have to be

:50:08.:50:11.

declared. We need transparency for Saudi money. It is coming into

:50:12.:50:15.

British mosques. We know but we don't know the extent or amount.

:50:16.:50:18.

There should be a proper transparency register. Should we

:50:19.:50:20.

stop selling them arms? transparency register. Should we

:50:21.:50:23.

stop selling them arms. Not that much of a rethink? If there was a

:50:24.:50:27.

breakdown of diplomatic relations that led us to selling them fewer

:50:28.:50:31.

arms that would be a prays woefrt paying. We go on pretending they are

:50:32.:50:36.

our best chums in the middle East. I'm not sure they are. Should we be

:50:37.:50:40.

rethinking our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Certainly no. We have

:50:41.:50:43.

had a good relationship for decades chld our royal families have a very

:50:44.:50:46.

good working relationship. Is that something to boast about it? It is.

:50:47.:50:51.

It is in our strategic interest to be very close to Saudi oar and why.

:50:52.:50:56.

I understand the strategic interest, but is it something to boast about,

:50:57.:51:00.

that our Royal Family should be close to a regime which has done so

:51:01.:51:04.

many institutions recently that it has run out of trained beheaders.

:51:05.:51:10.

Well I think there are 47 countries in the world that killings of people

:51:11.:51:15.

who are being convicted for crimes of this nature. So Saudi Arabia is

:51:16.:51:19.

not the only country. No, but it is our ally. But it is very important

:51:20.:51:24.

that we continue to engauge with Saudi Arabia it make representations

:51:25.:51:27.

when we disagree with them, as we do on a regular basis. We can't just

:51:28.:51:32.

stop relations with them, as Jeremy Corbyn would have us do and have no

:51:33.:51:36.

contact with them. When we go to Saudi oar and y we make very strong

:51:37.:51:39.

representations on the things we disagree with. What difference has

:51:40.:51:46.

that made When I first went to Saudi Arabia, there were no women, for

:51:47.:51:50.

example, in the council. Now 30% of their representatives are women.

:51:51.:51:52.

Women have now been able to take part in elections. They still can't

:51:53.:51:57.

drive. Well, it is moving at a slow pace. What evidence is there that we

:51:58.:52:02.

have played any role in that? I think the Saudis are interested in

:52:03.:52:06.

having a close relationship with the u Nationwide kingdom. Is there

:52:07.:52:10.

anything that we have done for women's rights? I have no evidence

:52:11.:52:14.

that we have asked for very much, that has played a role in that? It

:52:15.:52:20.

is that contact that we have with NGOs and human rights organisations

:52:21.:52:24.

when we go to Saudi. When we go, we leave our minders hyped and go and

:52:25.:52:30.

engage with women's rights organisations one-to-one and they

:52:31.:52:32.

get comfort that British politicians are coming out to support them and

:52:33.:52:36.

to he help them to campaign for their rights. So we should be doing

:52:37.:52:40.

our right for women's rights but whatted about the fact that the

:52:41.:52:46.

Saudis have refused to take a single refugee or migrant from Syria or

:52:47.:52:51.

Iraq and yet will be funding. Would you disagree with experts that they

:52:52.:52:56.

have been funding extremism in British mosques? Isn't it time we

:52:57.:53:01.

said no to Saudi money coming into mosques? Do you not accept that

:53:02.:53:05.

there is damage being done by Saudi money coming in? Whether it is Saudi

:53:06.:53:18.

or Kuwait. They are President Al-Sadr to get away with

:53:19.:53:23.

ethnicically cleansing its country. Doesn't Saudi Arabia cleanse its owe

:53:24.:53:29.

Pope sneents no. It has executed 47 people. And those 47 were convicted

:53:30.:53:35.

by an independent judiciary, by 15 judges that they were involved in

:53:36.:53:40.

terrorist acts, we also eliminate opponents worldwide who were

:53:41.:53:44.

involved in terrorism. I'm afraid we have to - I must explain to our

:53:45.:53:52.

viewers, because we overran with the Trident discussion, with Mr

:53:53.:53:54.

Livingstone we have run out of time but we will come back. Thank you for

:53:55.:53:56.

being with us. Now, Saturday is the 30th

:53:57.:54:01.

anniversary of the first broadcast All these years later,

:54:02.:54:03.

the BBC comedy is still quoted by politicians

:54:04.:54:06.

and the watching commentariat. So why does it have

:54:07.:54:08.

such lasting appeal? If you were watching

:54:09.:54:10.

the Nine O'Clock News 30 years ago, it was all about the shock

:54:11.:54:22.

resignation of Defence Secretary. But if you wanted real political

:54:23.:54:24.

insight, well you should have been As always, BBC Two,

:54:25.:54:30.

because on the same night, Yes, Prime Minister was born and it

:54:31.:54:34.

soon had its own take Point one, everyone will accept

:54:35.:54:36.

collective decisions, Point 2, there will now be a cooling

:54:37.:54:43.

off period on the subject All speeches and press statements

:54:44.:54:53.

must in future be cleared We can't cool off discussion

:54:54.:55:04.

on something that hasn't been discussed yet and I cannot,

:55:05.:55:08.

on principle, accept that anything I have no confidence

:55:09.:55:11.

he will clear what I want to say. Well, that is my decision

:55:12.:55:16.

and you must accept it. Well, Dudley, I'm afraid you must

:55:17.:55:18.

consider your position. Just like it's predecessor,

:55:19.:55:28.

Yes, Minister, set here in the old Department

:55:29.:55:32.

for Administrative Affairs, people thought of Yes,

:55:33.:55:41.

Prime Minister as less Civil servants and politicians alike

:55:42.:55:43.

used to gossip with the writers and they helped inspire

:55:44.:55:47.

Sir Humphrey Appleby, the doyen of the Civil Service,

:55:48.:55:48.

who had spent his career trying So little that ministers might

:55:49.:55:51.

almost able to do it on their own, Well, I don't know whether

:55:52.:56:12.

I really want power. people don't have power,

:56:13.:56:15.

do you know what happens? But aren't they supposed

:56:16.:56:18.

to in a democracy? This is a British

:56:19.:56:24.

democracy, Bernard. This was Sir Humphrey's eyrie,

:56:25.:56:26.

right next door to Downing Street, so he could keep a beady eye

:56:27.:56:29.

on what Prime Minister Hacker But in case you think

:56:30.:56:31.

the satire is a bit dated, take a look at this extract

:56:32.:56:35.

which might have inspired Jeremy Corbyn's announcement

:56:36.:56:38.

that he would never press that I don't want to obliterate

:56:39.:56:40.

the whole of Eastern Europe. But they don't know that

:56:41.:56:48.

you probably wouldn't use it. Yes, they probably know that

:56:49.:56:53.

you probably wouldn't They probably certainly know that

:56:54.:56:56.

I probably wouldn't. Yes, but even though they probably

:56:57.:56:59.

certainly know that you probably wouldn't they don't certainly know

:57:00.:57:02.

that although you probably wouldn't, there is no probability that

:57:03.:57:04.

you certainly would. Snr things haven't changed. What a

:57:05.:57:06.

pertinent discussion. And you can hear more from Shaun

:57:07.:57:25.

Ley's Hackers And Humphreys All, a three-hour celebration to mark

:57:26.:57:28.

Yes Prime Minister's 30th birthday, this Saturday on Radio 4 Extra

:57:29.:57:31.

at 9.00am and again at 7.00pm. With us now, Yes Minister groupie,

:57:32.:57:34.

former Home Office Minister, What is it you love of about it so

:57:35.:57:40.

much? Because it is entirely accurate. David Davis has said that

:57:41.:57:44.

you may think it is a comedy but we, aspiring ministers, think it is a

:57:45.:57:47.

training manual. Margaret Thatcher thought it was a documentary. She

:57:48.:57:56.

fame fame famously took part in a special episode, which wasn't very

:57:57.:58:01.

funny.tives written by Bernard Ingham. Surprise. It not only

:58:02.:58:08.

portrays the question of who runs the country. I once interviewed Gus

:58:09.:58:15.

O'Donnell and asked him what was the first duty of the Civil Service? He

:58:16.:58:19.

said it was to challenge ministers. I think it is extraordinary to say.

:58:20.:58:23.

Did you learn that lesson well. One of the characters were based on you.

:58:24.:58:29.

I was Peter Hennessey of the Times, I turned up as Peter Martel.

:58:30.:58:33.

Humphrey leaked me a document over the club lunch table. I would never

:58:34.:58:37.

accept leaked documents. Before we go, what was the answer to the quiz,

:58:38.:58:41.

the vegetable mentioned? I think it is observer gene. It was

:58:42.:58:50.

cauliflower. I'm disappointed. I will be become with This Week

:58:51.:58:59.

tonight. -- aubergine. Thank you to Nick Herbert. That was

:59:00.:59:03.

the shortest interview ever. Yes. Goodbye.

:59:04.:59:05.

'BBC Two will help you stick to your New Year's resolutions.'

:59:06.:59:10.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by contemporary historian and crossbench peer Peter Hennessy for the latest political news and debate, including a chat about Labour with former London mayor Ken Livingstone, and Ukip leader Nigel Farage on the EU referendum.


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