01/02/2016 Daily Politics


01/02/2016

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. She is joined by Anne-Marie Trevelyan MP, Matthew Pennycook MP and Norman Lamb MP.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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"No deal" was the conclusion of the EU council president

:00:42.:00:44.

Donald Tusk when he left Number 10 last night.

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David Cameron says there's been progress and he still hopes

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to secure an early renegotiation of Britain's EU membership.

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Number 10 claims it all comes down to the next 24 hours.

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MPs looking into the collapse of the charity Kids Company aren't

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impressed - they accuse everyone from the founder down

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of an extraordinary catalogue of failures.

:01:06.:01:09.

Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own banknotes -

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should Wales get its own for the first time

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we'll be asking who wants to read about politicians, anyway?

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Why did you not like it? I den think they are that interesting, to be

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honest. -- I don't think. LAUGHTER

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Controversial! All that in the next hour

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and with us for the whole of the programme today I'm joined

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by three MPs who haven't yet had a book written about them,

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authorised or not. But they've told me they're

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very open to offers. It's the Conservative

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Anne-Marie Treveylan, Matthew Pennycook for Labour

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and the Lib Dem and former minister First today let's talk

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about the prime minister's renegotiation of Britain's EU

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membership, as what are being billed as crunch talks between the UK

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government and EU officials roll on. The European Council president

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Donald Tusk met David Cameron for dinner at No 10 last night,

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and over a meal of salmon, beef and pear and apple crumble,

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they tried to reach an agreement that Mr Tusk could then put before

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the other EU leaders ahead Well, after the meeting

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Downing St said there had been a "breakthrough" on restricting

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benefits for EU migrants. Mr Tusk tweeted: "No deal yet.

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Intensive work in next 24 crucial.". So what chance of a deal -

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well, our political correspondent Any more progress on this deal? We

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have come from an hour-long lobby briefing, from

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have come from an hour-long lobby official spokeswoman with

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journalists, and they sound official spokeswoman with

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upbeat. What they are emphasising comment we need to be careful, when

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upbeat. What they are emphasising we talk about a deal, the deal will

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take place if it does at the February summit of EU leaders. What

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we are likely to get, some February summit of EU leaders. What

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document from Donald Tusk tomorrow, possibly, and a discussion document

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regarding the proposals which he thinks can

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regarding the proposals which he deal, but there will be more

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discussions deal, but there will be more

:03:32.:03:36.

Street are careful to say that this is a significant breakthrough, the

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idea that is a significant breakthrough, the

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admitting that the is a significant breakthrough, the

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migration coming into the UK mean that

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migration coming into the UK mean emergency brake, and again we have

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to be emergency brake, and again we have

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of talks about many different breaks emergency brake, and again we have

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we are talking about and what the proposal is from the Prime Minister

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is that proposal is from the Prime Minister

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things like tax credits and housing benefit, for four years from the

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time they arrive, that might not benefit, for four years from the

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what other EU leaders want. They might say, over four use

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what other EU leaders want. They what you like, but then we return to

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normal, so that is up what you like, but then we return to

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negotiation -- over four years. We do look like we might have some kind

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of document, a detailed document, but not the final product, in the

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next 24 hours. Regarding the hours you have mentioned, regarding

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migrants and the emergency brake specifically, it is not clear if the

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European Commission is going to unilaterally say that Britain, you

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are allowed to have an urgency break of so many years on benefits to

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migrants, that would have to be ratified by the other 27 countries,

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is that how you think it will have to be? The question everyone is

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is that how you think it will have asking, whose foot is on the break,

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can the UK decide from this moment on, that we cannot give any more

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benefits to migrants? The UK Government sees this as a Paul

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factor which is encouraging migrants to come here rather than go to other

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countries, but I have to say, we don't know, we are not at the stage

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where we know and they will still be disagreement over this about exactly

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how it works. Is it the European Commission saint of Britain, we

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accept for the next seven years that you can restrict benefits? -- saying

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to Britain. Or is it David Cameron saying all migrants who come here,

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in the first four years, they can receive those kind of benefits?

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There is a big difference. The Prime Minister is not going to accept

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alternative to his proposal, that is what Downing Street are saying,

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unless it is as powerful and as effective as the one that he thinks

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he is proposing. A busy day to you, I feel. Anne-Marie, have you been

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won over? No, I haven't. If you are heading for a car crash, having a

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emergency brake is all very well, but I would like to be in charge of

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the steering wheel and what this feels like is EU technocrats

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controlling decisions. The point of having a referendum, the frustration

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of the British people is that more powers seem to come from Europe and

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we need to be in charge of these decisions. The primers that has been

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frustrated by those who do not understand how important this is for

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the British people -- the Prime Minister. There is nothing he could

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come back with which would satisfy you? He has not asked for much in

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the first place, and my frustration is that he is not even getting

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about, and I would like him to at least get through to those

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technocrats that this is about the British people and their

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frustrations, but they are not hearing that and that is a tough

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call all round. Anne-Marie does not think it adds up to very much, but

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symbolically, if you were presenting voters with a deal which included an

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emergency brake on access to in work benefits from EU migrants, without

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not be pretty powerful? I agree with Anne-Marie, this is pretty trivial,

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taken in the round, you have got to set aside, the political theatre

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which surrounds the negotiation. We are talking about pretty small

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staff, which I do not think we'll have much of the impact -- stuff

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which I do not think we'll have much impact. You would not support it? We

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do not know what it entails, there is so much uncertainty, who presents

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the break, what are the circumstances which mean that we

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qualify as being in an emergency situation which might give us

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certainty about when it applies in future. The European Commission is

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broadly in favour of agreement with David Cameron that there could be an

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emergency brake if there is an emergency brake on those benefits

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for four years, would Labour support it? We would be set auditing to stay

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in the EU -- we would be supporting. So it doesn't make a difference? Not

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really, it is about whether our future is in or out, and this is

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pretty small stuff in terms of the big picture. Are you in favour of it

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as a principle, restricting access to benefits? I have no difficulty

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with this, this is a reasonable proposition, but it is a damp squib,

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really, this is a sideshow. The big issue is, is our destiny and future

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in Europe or do we choose to retreat from that? If you think about the

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big issues which we confront, migrant flows and international

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crime, climate change, issues like tax evasion by companies like

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Google, much better able to confront those issues if we are working

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together internationally in the European Union rather than on our

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own. In terms of what else is being negotiated, what are the

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difficulties? One of the stumbling blocks is about the two tier Europe

:09:02.:09:04.

and the French disagreeing with the idea of safeguards being put in

:09:05.:09:09.

place for non-Eurozone countries, is that a good idea? I think that is

:09:10.:09:15.

rather important, yes. There is no prospect of us joining the euro any

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time soon, and probably never. We have to make sure that we and other

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countries outside the euro are safeguarded and that those countries

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within the euro cannot railroad things against our national

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interest. That is a substantial issue which I think does have to be

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resolved. This is what Steve Baker from conservatives for Britain had

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to say yesterday about the negotiations. Family Tory MPs are

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going to campaign for out? -- how many. About a fifth have made up

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their minds, and there has been a hardening, and I would expect

:09:56.:10:01.

between 50-70 with in that group. No more than 50-70 Tory MPs campaigning

:10:02.:10:05.

on your side of the referendum to leave? That would be my expectation

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at this stage. Are you disappointed gridlock only 50-7

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-- are you disappointed? Only 50-70 Tory MPs to campaign against. That

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is what I would expect. There is a core group that will want to leave,

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and there are those that would like to stay, and there is a big group in

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the middle. It is not many. I'm quite surprised, but this is just

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one of many issues, and therefore this is something they will

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consider. They have a valid point, this is a referendum for the people

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and how politicians choose to cast their vote is only one part of the

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process. Do you think the campaign to leave is lacking? If you have

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50-70 Tory MPs, you do not have a cabinet minister who is going to

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come out, so far, anyway, batting to leave the EU, so it is floundering?

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I think it is developing well, there's a broad set of voices on

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this referendum, and as it develops, and be Prime Minister reaches

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conclusions in the middle of feathery, we will move forward, and

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I think voices will become much stronger -- the Prime Minister

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reaches conclusions in the middle of February. Which voices are you

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hoping to hear from? Do you think some of them will vote to leave but

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they will not declare? I think some of those who will chair their

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constituency arenas and not put themselves into the firing line, and

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I think that is OK. This is a referendum for the people, but they

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have got to have the information to make their decision, which makes it

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a very important issue. Are you expecting any Cabinet minister to

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declare? Chris Grayling but the leader of the house. I don't have

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conversation, though, they are all very loyal to the Prime Minister and

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that is how it should be at the moment. -- the leader of the house.

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What did Tory MP Jacob Rees Mogg warn yesterday might be threatened

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At the end of the show we'll see if the panel know

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A report by a group of MPs into the collapse of the charity

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Kids Company hasn't pulled its punches.

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Its founder, trustees, government ministers,

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auditors and regulators all come in for strong criticism

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We'll speak to its chairman in a moment.

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But first, let's remind ourselves of the background to the story.

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The charity aimed to provide practical, emotional and educational

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support to deprived and vulnerable inner-city children in London,

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Its founder, Camila Batmanghelidjh was a high-profile figure,

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and it had supporters from across politics,

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The charity closed on 5th August last year after facing a series

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of claims about its financial management and administration.

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In June, the Permanent Secretary of the Cabinet Office,

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Richard Heaton, wrote to ministers Oliver Letwin and Matthew Hancock

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The grant was awarded a week before the charity closed,

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despite Mr Heaton's advising against the move.

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In the wake of the closure, Batmanghelidjh and Kids Company

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chairman and ex-BBC executive Alan Yentob were called before

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the Commons Public Administration Committee.

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Today, that committee has published a report roundly criticising

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the charity's trustees and the Charity Commission

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for an "extraordinary catalogue of failures".

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Camila Batmanghelidjh herself is to appear in a documentary

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on BBC One on Wednesday, in which she denies any wrongdoing.

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I am not sorry I gave the kids money.

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I am not sorry I bought the kids nice things.

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The only thing I am sorry about is, I didn't raise enough money.

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Well, we're joined now by the chairman of the committee

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He's the Conservative Bernard Jenkin.

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Your report described it as an extraordinary catalogue of failures,

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laying blame at the door of the trustees. Why haven't government

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ministers received more blame for overriding the advice of civil

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servants? We do look closely, actually, at ministers and I don't

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think they scape from our scrutiny. You used the word blame. We do not

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use that word. Why not? There is no point in finding blame. What we want

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to know is why this accident occurred and what can be learned

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from it. It is not about blame. There are lessons for the Charity

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Commission. They could have been much more proactive. They could have

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scoop top stories in the press. Why many more people did not take their

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concerns to the Charity Commission is a big question for the Charity

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Commission. They need more resources to support trustees in these

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charities than they have. There is lessons for the advisors. Why didn't

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the accountants ring the alarm bells more vigorously? There is lessons

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for the government. Why were ministers overriding civil servants'

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advice, went to some extent they were conflicted? This charity had

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become an emblem of something the governing party wanted to project,

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and I have to say, ministers of all parties were captivated by the

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charisma of Camila Batmanghelidjh, blinded away from their usual sense

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of judgment. This happened to the blinded away from their usual sense

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trustees, too. And it is the trustees who are accountable. Either

:16:16.:16:17.

they knew what was going trustees who are accountable. Either

:16:18.:16:21.

did not do something about it, or they didn't know what was going on,

:16:22.:16:24.

and they should have done. But in terms of blame, why shouldn't

:16:25.:16:28.

ministers be blamed for overriding civil servants, when they allowed

:16:29.:16:30.

millions of pounds of civil servants, when they allowed

:16:31.:16:33.

to be given to charity without civil servants, when they allowed

:16:34.:16:38.

due diligence or taking any notice of what was being presented to them?

:16:39.:16:42.

This is something about the philosophy of the way I lead this

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committee. I think too many select committees are interested in putting

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people up against the wall and just shooting and. It just creates a

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climate of fear around shooting and. It just creates a

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the public service so that people find it even more difficult to deal

:16:57.:17:01.

with the issues. I know that this is disappointing may be for the BBC and

:17:02.:17:04.

the media. But actually we wanted to learn the lessons. Disappointing for

:17:05.:17:14.

the public, too. It is about accountability and transparency. It

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is not me saying this at the BBC. We spoke to Paul Flynn, a member of

:17:19.:17:23.

your committee, and he has accused the committee of political timidity

:17:24.:17:25.

in not going further in investigating the links between Kids

:17:26.:17:31.

Company and the government. As you yourself have just said, they were

:17:32.:17:35.

captivated. We put that in the report. But why didn't you summon

:17:36.:17:44.

some of these ministers? We did, I am afraid you have not been briefed

:17:45.:17:50.

properly. I did watch the sittings. I'm afraid, Oliver Letwin came

:17:51.:17:55.

before the committee and we gave him a severe investigation. Maybe the

:17:56.:18:00.

liaison committee will summon the Prime Minister to explain himself in

:18:01.:18:04.

respect of this matter. That is a decision for all the select

:18:05.:18:07.

committee chair people, not just me. Should Camila Batmanghelidjh have

:18:08.:18:12.

had that unique, privileged access to top tiers of government? And we

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say she shouldn't. If she did she should not have used it in the way

:18:17.:18:20.

she did, to obtain money at the expense of other charities. One of

:18:21.:18:23.

our recommendations is that there needs to be new procedures in place

:18:24.:18:27.

so that when ministers become effectively conflicted between their

:18:28.:18:33.

political work with the charity and what they want to project

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politically from that, and applications from grants, straws are

:18:37.:18:38.

the last people who should be overriding civil servants' advice.

:18:39.:18:44.

Absolutely. In my time as a minister I was aware of an extraordinary

:18:45.:18:48.

process that you have to go through if you were a charity applying for

:18:49.:18:52.

government money. It was a really tight, proper process. Here, they

:18:53.:18:55.

just ride roughshod completely over it! The final payment of 3 million

:18:56.:19:02.

quid, I think... Which was only a week before it actually closed. It

:19:03.:19:06.

is outrageous. And surely there does have to be political accountability

:19:07.:19:12.

here. Should the ministers, Matthew Hancock and Oliver Letwin, made the

:19:13.:19:15.

decision against the advice of senior civil servants, to pay that

:19:16.:19:19.

money over. It is a total waste of public money. Looking at this

:19:20.:19:23.

report, and you will no doubt have followed the committee interviews

:19:24.:19:27.

that were done with Alan Yentob and Camila Batmanghelidjh herself -

:19:28.:19:30.

would you have liked to have seen more ministers being grilled in the

:19:31.:19:35.

way Oliver Letwin was? I am on the Public Accounts Committee and we

:19:36.:19:38.

looked at this very closely from the financial point of view. We are

:19:39.:19:41.

there to manage value for money for the taxpayer and to highlight when

:19:42.:19:45.

it has failed. In this case, absolutely we did not get value for

:19:46.:19:48.

money, the British people were not supported. And we grilled the

:19:49.:19:52.

permanent secretaries, of which there have been a few over the

:19:53.:19:58.

course of the life of Kids Company, about how they had continued to

:19:59.:20:02.

accent that money should be, and it was only in the last tranche but

:20:03.:20:05.

they asked for a letter to hand over this money, but actually they were

:20:06.:20:09.

allowing funds to go to a charity which was not meeting... It was not

:20:10.:20:16.

a national charity, it was very localised, there were so many areas

:20:17.:20:20.

where it was being overridden. We have looked at it in some detail and

:20:21.:20:23.

we need to make sure that there are much more rigorous systems in place

:20:24.:20:29.

within the civil service, so that the taxpayer knows that... There are

:20:30.:20:32.

many charities in the north-east which would have been thrilled with

:20:33.:20:36.

that 3 million. We could have done a great deal for many children in the

:20:37.:20:39.

north-east. And the total given of course was much greater. 42 million,

:20:40.:20:44.

yes,. Under all governance, I have to say. Absolutely. It had failed to

:20:45.:20:50.

meet government standards which would have got other charities the

:20:51.:20:54.

money, several times over. For work which was very worthwhile in some

:20:55.:20:57.

areas, but not in others. Is there any truth, Bernard Jenkin, in the

:20:58.:21:04.

allegation that Camila Batmanghelidjh herself was the sort

:21:05.:21:07.

of poster girl of the big society, that in a way it could not be

:21:08.:21:12.

allowed to fail, but that was the political imperative, which is why

:21:13.:21:16.

they seemed to turn a blind eye to what was going on financially? And

:21:17.:21:19.

that that is why in the end the Government let it happen, and the

:21:20.:21:25.

allegation that you were too timid? You're absolutely right, that is

:21:26.:21:29.

exactly what we set out in our report. I don't think we have been

:21:30.:21:33.

timid at all. What are you expect us to do beyond what we have put in our

:21:34.:21:38.

report? The fact is, you're exactly right, you have nailed it. You have

:21:39.:21:42.

read our report and you are repeating back to me what we have

:21:43.:21:47.

got in our report. A lot of money was spent in the pursuit of

:21:48.:21:51.

political objectives. It happened under the Labour Party and the

:21:52.:21:54.

coalition as well. This is something which has got into the political

:21:55.:21:59.

culture. Just skate booting one minister, if I may say, for signing

:22:00.:22:02.

a letter, is not the answer. We need everybody to take this on board. I

:22:03.:22:07.

will be raising this with the Prime Minister this afternoon. And will

:22:08.:22:10.

you come and tell us...? Probably not! Just thought I would ask!

:22:11.:22:17.

Talking of Oliver Letwin, he has released a statement saying he still

:22:18.:22:20.

believes it was the right thing to do to give this charity one last

:22:21.:22:25.

chance to restructure. Was he wrong? I'm afraid he was, and we say he was

:22:26.:22:29.

wrong in our report. Do you agree? I think the trustees were really not

:22:30.:22:34.

doing their jobs properly. I have been on many charity boards, and

:22:35.:22:38.

sometimes you have to take ethical decisions and you have to cut your

:22:39.:22:42.

cloth. They did not do that. Interesting that Bernard Jenkin is

:22:43.:22:47.

says the culture had already existed under Labour, do you accept that? I

:22:48.:22:52.

think he is right that this goes beyond one particular government. It

:22:53.:22:56.

is a problem with charismatic individuals and charities which are

:22:57.:23:00.

held up to be special cases, in that then it becomes very difficult in

:23:01.:23:03.

how government deals with it. There are clear lessons from the report in

:23:04.:23:07.

how government hands out noncompetitive grants. But while

:23:08.:23:11.

learning the lessons from this particular case, we have got to be

:23:12.:23:16.

careful not to slander the whole charity sector. Lots of trustees

:23:17.:23:20.

work extremely hard. Very professional, and if anything, need

:23:21.:23:25.

more support. There was at least one trustee who really did try and stick

:23:26.:23:29.

up for what should have happened. He resigned in March last year. And I

:23:30.:23:35.

think there were others. But the real question here is, how did this

:23:36.:23:41.

happen, and is it happening in other charities? Trustees reading this

:23:42.:23:45.

report needs to see for themselves and ask themselves, how do you get

:23:46.:23:48.

the conversations going which are not being had? How do you get people

:23:49.:23:52.

to tell you stuff that they are frightened of telling you because

:23:53.:23:55.

there is a powerful person in the organisation who does not want you

:23:56.:23:58.

to know? These are very difficult questions and indeed they apply to

:23:59.:24:03.

the BBC as well. There is a concern which we express in our report that

:24:04.:24:07.

Alan Yentob, his removal from his job, or his resignation, brushes

:24:08.:24:12.

under the carpet a question about attitudes of senior management in

:24:13.:24:16.

the BBC, which the trustees have not quite got a grip on. Have there been

:24:17.:24:21.

the conversations at the top of the BBC about how it was possible that a

:24:22.:24:26.

senior person in the BBC with a great reputation should finish up

:24:27.:24:29.

standing over the shoulder of a BBC producer while Camila Batmanghelidjh

:24:30.:24:31.

was being interviewed? Echoes these issues of conflict need to be

:24:32.:24:36.

discussed. It took a very long time for this even to be raised properly

:24:37.:24:41.

in the BBC. -- because these issues. I will leave that for you to

:24:42.:24:46.

investigate and pursue further. It shows that these issues of

:24:47.:24:51.

governance stretch into all... And indeed into the private sector. Yes.

:24:52.:24:57.

Before we let you go, on the EU renegotiation, we could not let you

:24:58.:25:01.

go without asking you about this... Everybody has resisted it this

:25:02.:25:06.

morning! Well, I am not going to! Are you now happy with the status of

:25:07.:25:11.

the campaign? I am supporting the campaign. Will you resign from the

:25:12.:25:16.

board if Dominic Cummings continues as its campaign director? Dominic

:25:17.:25:20.

continues and I continue to support it.

:25:21.:25:27.

England, Scotland and Northern Ireland can issue their own bank

:25:28.:25:30.

Plaid Cymru are calling for the new notes to put Wales

:25:31.:25:38.

on an equal footing with Soctland and Northern Ireland,

:25:39.:25:40.

and to allow Welsh figures to be represented on bank notes.

:25:41.:25:44.

In the 19th century, Wales did have their own notes,

:25:45.:25:46.

printed by small local banks, which could be used

:25:47.:25:48.

Here at the Daily politics we like to be helpful, so we've come

:25:49.:25:54.

The former 14th century Prince of Wales Owain Glyndwr,

:25:55.:25:58.

famous Welsh Prime Minister David Lloyd George,

:25:59.:26:00.

or if you wanted to be more current, how about

:26:01.:26:03.

Joining me now is Plaid Cymru's Hywel Williams.

:26:04.:26:13.

Another famous Welshman! What has brought this on? Well, there is a

:26:14.:26:21.

change, there is devolution, there is... It has been around for a

:26:22.:26:26.

while. Indeed but there are further changes.

:26:27.:26:30.

while. Indeed but there are further is for the watchers. And of

:26:31.:26:33.

while. Indeed but there are further there is the thing that Scotland and

:26:34.:26:35.

Northern Ireland are able to do this. So why did Wales not continue

:26:36.:26:42.

with its own banknotes? Because we are part of that mythical being,

:26:43.:26:45.

England and Wales. Inc before the Bank of England was set up. And of

:26:46.:26:51.

course, the rights issue notes were stopped in the middle of the

:26:52.:26:55.

19th-century. Scottish and Northern Ireland banks actually derive some

:26:56.:27:00.

value from this, there is economic benefit from it as well. Is there

:27:01.:27:01.

much demand for it, benefit from it as well. Is there

:27:02.:27:06.

it is symbolic of changed times. But is there a demand for it? Suddenly

:27:07.:27:12.

there is. My colleague Jonathan Edwards will be making that demand

:27:13.:27:15.

this afternoon. Apart from you two! Can

:27:16.:27:20.

this afternoon. Apart from you two! It you are the

:27:21.:27:25.

this afternoon. Apart from you two! already there in some respects.

:27:26.:27:28.

this afternoon. Apart from you two! is not a matter of principle. It is

:27:29.:27:30.

actually to reflect the is not a matter of principle. It is

:27:31.:27:33.

future settlements with Wales. That is not a matter of principle. It is

:27:34.:27:39.

support for it - do you think people care enough about it? If you were to

:27:40.:27:44.

ask a person on the street in Cardiff or Carmarthen, I am sure

:27:45.:27:45.

they would say Cardiff or Carmarthen, I am sure

:27:46.:27:49.

What about the extra cost? It would be minimal. Would it? Absolutely. Do

:27:50.:27:55.

you know what the cost would be? I have no idea. But it is a matter of

:27:56.:28:05.

the design and... Do you support it? I have no problem with it.

:28:06.:28:11.

the design and... Do you support it? notes in my wallet as often as

:28:12.:28:17.

the design and... Do you support it? have English notes. I have got no

:28:18.:28:19.

problem with it in principle. And who would you have on the notes? Who

:28:20.:28:24.

would I have? I will come back to you. What about you? I think

:28:25.:28:28.

identity is important and I understand. But I want a Norfolk

:28:29.:28:40.

note. That is not what I meant! Aneurin Bevan. Ryan Giggs.

:28:41.:28:44.

note. That is not what I meant! you like to see on the note? I think

:28:45.:29:00.

I would stick with Owain Glyndwr or possibly Michael Foot. Just before

:29:01.:29:09.

you go, would you worry about difficulty as I have experienced

:29:10.:29:13.

with Scottish notes sometimes coming home and then retailers will not

:29:14.:29:14.

accept them even though they are home and then retailers will not

:29:15.:29:21.

technically legal tender? Yes, it is a matter of popularising the image

:29:22.:29:25.

of the UK as four equal partners I think. When newsagents and others

:29:26.:29:29.

realise this, there will be no problem at all.

:29:30.:29:38.

Let's take a look now at some of the events likely to be making

:29:39.:29:41.

Registration for campaigners in the EU Referendum opens today -

:29:42.:29:45.

and they must start recording all donations and loans above ?7,500

:29:46.:29:48.

to the Electoral Commission from today.

:29:49.:29:49.

Tuesday now seems the likeliest day for

:29:50.:29:52.

European Council president Donald Tusk to circulate a letter

:29:53.:29:55.

to EU leaders setting out what progress has been made

:29:56.:29:58.

on the UK's membership renegotiation - assuming he and David Cameron

:29:59.:30:02.

On Wednesday after Prime Minister's Questions,

:30:03.:30:08.

Labour will try to keep the spotlight

:30:09.:30:11.

by holding a Commons debate on multinational companies

:30:12.:30:16.

On Thursday, a Syria donors' conference is being held in London

:30:17.:30:24.

to encourage participating countries to give more to tackle

:30:25.:30:26.

the humanitarian crisis caused by the conflict in Syria.

:30:27.:30:29.

And Saturday sees the first meeting of the National Committee

:30:30.:30:32.

of Momentum - that's the grassroots organisation set up in the wake

:30:33.:30:34.

So, a busy week in politics, and that means a busy week

:30:35.:30:46.

for journalists like Lucy Fisher from The Times and Rafael Behr

:30:47.:30:50.

from The Guardian - they're in College Green.

:30:51.:30:55.

How much damage has been done to the reputation of George Osborne over

:30:56.:31:02.

the Google tax row? A great deal of damage has been done, the Business

:31:03.:31:06.

Secretary Sajid Javid yesterday said this is not a major success, as

:31:07.:31:10.

George Osborne said, he says this is not a glorious moment, and Sajid

:31:11.:31:15.

Javid said he shared the sense of injustice that many companies feel.

:31:16.:31:20.

Also we had Google's spokesman Peter Barron himself on the airwaves

:31:21.:31:24.

saying that we need reform of tax laws, and in the light of that

:31:25.:31:28.

George Osborne should be very red cheeked. Obviously, a fruitful

:31:29.:31:36.

stream for Labour to pursue, and we will show our viewers the tax return

:31:37.:31:41.

that John McDonnell has published. Not sure what it says, but will this

:31:42.:31:47.

put more pressure on George Osborne and David Cameron to publish their

:31:48.:31:54.

own tax returns or pursue more transparency? It is a nifty device.

:31:55.:31:59.

To some degree it does put the pressure on, it says he has nothing

:32:00.:32:04.

to hide as the Shadow Chancellor, but I think it will have limited

:32:05.:32:08.

traction, because for a device like this to build up a head of steam you

:32:09.:32:12.

need other people do say, yes, we all want to do this, as well. In the

:32:13.:32:18.

wider sphere of power around the Chancellor and Prime Minister, there

:32:19.:32:21.

are not many people who are desperate to publish their tax

:32:22.:32:24.

returns and newspaper editors are not in a hurry and so I'm not sure

:32:25.:32:28.

this campaign will have much momentum, but it keeps the spotlight

:32:29.:32:32.

on this issue. There are Conservatives who are starting to

:32:33.:32:38.

appreciate that just being behind all business and commerce regardless

:32:39.:32:41.

of what it does, that is not action is such a great look for the

:32:42.:32:44.

Conservative Party, and if this does come to put more pressure on the

:32:45.:32:49.

Chancellor, it will be Conservatives saying they are getting on the wrong

:32:50.:32:52.

side of public opinion more than necessarily the things the Labour

:32:53.:32:57.

Party can do. What more can we actually hope will be revealed,

:32:58.:33:02.

Lucy? We have heard Peter Barron said there is no sweetheart deal

:33:03.:33:07.

which was struck with HMRC, and they are paying their share of

:33:08.:33:10.

corporation tax at the same level as everybody else. There might be an

:33:11.:33:15.

inquiry from a Parliamentary committee, but are we talking about

:33:16.:33:18.

a new tax regime for big multinationals? Back conversation

:33:19.:33:26.

needs to be had. There are more revelations to come which will keep

:33:27.:33:30.

the pressure in place, and I think the pressure will stay up there.

:33:31.:33:35.

People are saying, do we need to overhaul corporation tax and have a

:33:36.:33:38.

different levy on sale so people cannot structure their profits so it

:33:39.:33:43.

goes to tax havens like Bermuda? The principle is the main problem,

:33:44.:33:49.

people say these are private individuals, tax is not negotiable,

:33:50.:33:53.

but if you are a multinational corporation you can wrangle with

:33:54.:33:56.

HMRC and aside the tax you are going to pay. There has to be some

:33:57.:34:06.

measures proposed. -- and decide. The Shadow Chancellor John O'Donnell

:34:07.:34:09.

said by the end of the century national borders would be an

:34:10.:34:12.

irrelevance, what do you make of that? Quite interesting. He did say

:34:13.:34:18.

by the end of this century, so we have 85 years. It is quite

:34:19.:34:26.

revealing, it almost shows the Marxist training, eating is about

:34:27.:34:29.

these great historical forces in terms of historical destiny -- he

:34:30.:34:35.

thinks about. What people want from the Labour Party is someone who will

:34:36.:34:38.

talk about what a Labour government would do in five years' time, not 85

:34:39.:34:44.

years. Even though he might have unearthed some interesting

:34:45.:34:46.

discussion about globalisation and the world shrinking and people

:34:47.:34:49.

moving around and Borders dissolving, that is maybe an

:34:50.:34:55.

academic and people wants to have, but the Labour Party needs to

:34:56.:34:58.

reassure people that the Labour Party in government would have

:34:59.:35:03.

control over the borders which we do have at the moment, which some

:35:04.:35:06.

people do not think they care enough about at the moment. It might be a

:35:07.:35:10.

valid academic I'd meant to have, though. Thanks for joining us. --

:35:11.:35:16.

valid academic argument to have. It's been called the war

:35:17.:35:20.

the world forgot. The ongoing conflict in Yemen has

:35:21.:35:22.

seen thousands of deaths and millions of people

:35:23.:35:25.

internally displaced. A coalition of nine countries

:35:26.:35:26.

led by Saudi Arabia has been bombing rebel targets in support

:35:27.:35:29.

of the government, and the coalition yesterday announced it will form

:35:30.:35:31.

a "high-level independent committee" to investigate UN allegations that

:35:32.:35:33.

bombing raids have deliberately Back in the UK, questions have been

:35:34.:35:36.

raised about the role of British military advisers

:35:37.:35:44.

in the bombing campaign. One of those raising the questions

:35:45.:35:46.

is Shadow International Development What would you like this independent

:35:47.:35:57.

committee to verify exactly? We need to be clear first of all where the

:35:58.:36:04.

government stands in relation to law and in relation to arms treaties,

:36:05.:36:06.

because ministers have said there has been no deliberate humanitarian

:36:07.:36:15.

outrage, but it does not say it has to be deliberate, it says if there

:36:16.:36:22.

is a risk of humanitarian outrage is happening, and we can see that in

:36:23.:36:28.

Yemen there have been a series... There have been a four hospitals

:36:29.:36:31.

bombed, and we believe that the government might be in breach of

:36:32.:36:34.

treaties which it signed and that is what we should be looking at. You

:36:35.:36:40.

are worried about British personnel and British government being in

:36:41.:36:42.

breach of international law, what is it that you think British personnel

:36:43.:36:48.

have been involved with? We have been told that they have been

:36:49.:36:53.

helping the Saudis with targets to make sure there is no breach of

:36:54.:36:56.

humanitarian law, but they are clearly not being very successful.

:36:57.:37:02.

The accounts are that civilians have been hit, as you say, targeted or

:37:03.:37:09.

not. But as you say, British personnel have been involved, you

:37:10.:37:13.

think, in trying to minimise civilian casualties, is that not the

:37:14.:37:17.

point? We know they are involved, but we don't know what they are

:37:18.:37:20.

doing, and I think we need transparency. We also need an

:37:21.:37:25.

examination as to whether we are actually in breach of arms treaties

:37:26.:37:31.

which we have signed. Are the Saudis, the Saudi led Karen Isham,

:37:32.:37:36.

have they committed war crimes? -- Saudi led coalition. These are

:37:37.:37:41.

important things we have got to look into, but at the moment the United

:37:42.:37:46.

Nations says that Yemen is on the edge of a humanitarian crisis and a

:37:47.:37:52.

food crisis but so clearly that Saudi led coalition has created

:37:53.:37:58.

havoc in what is the second largest country in the area. People will be

:37:59.:38:03.

surprised here that British military personnel have been involved in

:38:04.:38:08.

assisting this Saudi led coalition in targeting rebels, as they would

:38:09.:38:15.

particular against the government. That is Britain involved in the war

:38:16.:38:21.

in Yemen? -- as they would put it come against the government. We need

:38:22.:38:25.

the review, to get an understanding of what the British involvement is.

:38:26.:38:30.

We have important long-standing relationships with the Saudis and

:38:31.:38:36.

supporting the work of democratic governments across the region, we

:38:37.:38:39.

need to be clear with our military personnel and the government, they

:38:40.:38:42.

are keen to make sure that there has not been any breaches and I

:38:43.:38:47.

support... Are you worried that British personnel are trying to

:38:48.:38:50.

assist, even if they are minimising civilian tragedies? I have no

:38:51.:38:55.

expertise in this area, but I want to make sure that we really are

:38:56.:38:59.

checking that they are there to do what is right and

:39:00.:39:02.

checking that they are there to do are not reaching any area of

:39:03.:39:07.

international law. -- preaching. Should they be there in the first

:39:08.:39:08.

place? -- breaching. Should they be there in the first

:39:09.:39:23.

world. We are all across the world. What do you make

:39:24.:39:24.

world. We are all across the world. government? It needs to be

:39:25.:39:29.

investigated, I want a review of our relationship with Saudi Arabia, this

:39:30.:39:33.

is a country which has been involved with the system breaches of human

:39:34.:39:34.

rights in a serious with the system breaches of human

:39:35.:39:38.

own country -- with this system. with the system breaches of human

:39:39.:39:46.

targeting civilians is a very serious allegation, and if we are

:39:47.:39:48.

involved with that campaign, we ought to know exactly what the role

:39:49.:39:53.

has been. There should be total transparency. Why is the government

:39:54.:39:57.

continuing to grant transparency. Why is the government

:39:58.:40:02.

sales to a regime which is guilty of attacks on civilian

:40:03.:40:07.

sales to a regime which is guilty of sales. I hope that is what the

:40:08.:40:15.

review will stab. This also highlights, Britain's involvement

:40:16.:40:17.

across the Middle East, the extent of our involvement, it highlights

:40:18.:40:22.

some fundamental issues about our role in that region and we need

:40:23.:40:25.

clarity about what those troops are doing and whether their role is

:40:26.:40:30.

direct or indirect, how many there are and whether their advice is

:40:31.:40:33.

being listened to. The Foreign Office minister says that people are

:40:34.:40:38.

naive to think that Britain cannot sell weapons systems to allies. This

:40:39.:40:46.

is the reality. I'm a fried. He has not read the treaties, we

:40:47.:40:52.

is the reality. I'm a fried. He has be selling arms to regimes where

:40:53.:40:52.

there is a possibility they will be be selling arms to regimes where

:40:53.:41:00.

-- I'm afraid. But we don't be selling arms to regimes where

:41:01.:41:05.

the moment, the committee has not reported. The law is about risk, not

:41:06.:41:16.

in town. It is actually about risk, and the risk is very clear. -- not

:41:17.:41:21.

intent. There is a very serious risk which this government is turning a

:41:22.:41:26.

blind eye to and we should not be colluding in humanitarian outrage is

:41:27.:41:30.

in Yemen. Who is to say it is right to continue to do it, just because

:41:31.:41:35.

we have always done it? Sometimes we have got to question the impact of

:41:36.:41:39.

our foreign policy. There is the reality on the ground, though.

:41:40.:41:45.

People in Yemen desperately need aid and they need help and working with

:41:46.:41:52.

the Saudi led coalition might be the only way to get that aid to them. Or

:41:53.:41:57.

it might be that the bombing and the deaths of thousands of people is

:41:58.:42:01.

making a humanitarian catastrophe worse, that is my view. We should

:42:02.:42:05.

suspend the sale of arms aren't we are clear that it is not our side

:42:06.:42:10.

and that we are not making the humour to situation worse. Would you

:42:11.:42:16.

back that call? We need to see the review, and then we can make a

:42:17.:42:23.

decision. Would you suspend sales of arms to Saudi Arabia while that is

:42:24.:42:27.

going on? We have got to make sure that we are not breaching

:42:28.:42:28.

international law. Yes, we should. Jeremy Corbyn may have had

:42:29.:42:33.

a political career spanning four decades, but up until his election

:42:34.:42:36.

as Labour leader, it was safe to say that publishers hadn't

:42:37.:42:39.

taken much of an interest Well, that's changed,

:42:40.:42:41.

with several new books vying for your attention -

:42:42.:42:44.

including one out today. But how many people actually want

:42:45.:42:46.

to read books about politicians? We've sent our Ellie

:42:47.:42:49.

out to see if she can, the new biography

:42:50.:42:51.

about Jeremy Corbyn. Now, people in the

:42:52.:43:09.

Westminster village love That is the question I'm

:43:10.:43:11.

asking this morning. I love a lot of biographies

:43:12.:43:17.

and autobiographies, Because I'm following

:43:18.:43:23.

what they say on a daily basis, so I don't feel I need

:43:24.:43:30.

an extra layer of information. Political biographies,

:43:31.:43:33.

are you interested? Erm, depends who has

:43:34.:43:36.

written it, I suppose. I would be happy to

:43:37.:43:47.

read that one on Anne Jeremy Corbyn, interested

:43:48.:43:49.

in any of these Yes, but not right now.

:43:50.:43:53.

OK. Do you want any of them?

:43:54.:43:56.

No, I'm good, thanks. Sure, you can take them.

:43:57.:43:58.

I'm fine. Do you want a book?

:43:59.:44:00.

No, thank you. I read mostly poetry and fiction,

:44:01.:44:02.

being a literature professor. And since my time is limited

:44:03.:44:06.

for contemporary politics, I would confine myself mainly to

:44:07.:44:11.

American politics. Fair enough.

:44:12.:44:13.

So this would be a waste of time. Spoken like a true

:44:14.:44:15.

professor, thank you. I am a chef, so I read

:44:16.:44:22.

more books about cooking. You can have a little look,

:44:23.:44:31.

see if there is anything Erm, if I need to buy it,

:44:32.:44:40.

yes, I will buy it. But you have to promise

:44:41.:44:51.

you will read it. Yes?

:44:52.:44:56.

He is a fascinating character. Thank you very much.

:44:57.:45:01.

You have made your morning. Thank you so much.

:45:02.:45:04.

Have a lovely day. So, they have not exactly

:45:05.:45:11.

flown off the shelves. In fact I have not

:45:12.:45:23.

really been able to But maybe people should not judge

:45:24.:45:26.

books by their covers. # Can't judge a book

:45:27.:45:31.

by looking at the cover... And the author of a new book

:45:32.:45:35.

about the Labour leader, Comrade Corbyn, is Rosa Prince

:45:36.:45:38.

of the Daily Telegraph Were you heartened by that?! Now,

:45:39.:45:49.

here is the book. I have got it here. Why was Jeremy Corbyn not the

:45:50.:45:54.

first choice for the left as a representative in the leadership

:45:55.:45:58.

contest? Well, I think nobody expected him to want to run. He had

:45:59.:46:02.

been in Parliament for such a long time and had had all sorts of

:46:03.:46:06.

interests, mainly to do with foreign affairs, and no-one thought he was

:46:07.:46:09.

up for it, really. Then they looked around and found that no-one else

:46:10.:46:13.

wanted to do it, and thought, why don't we try Jeremy? So it was

:46:14.:46:17.

literally going around the table to say, whose turn is it now? In a way.

:46:18.:46:25.

Diane Abbott, who was just here, she had run before. There were not that

:46:26.:46:29.

many lefties still left in Parliament to do it. What about Jon

:46:30.:46:34.

Trickett or Clive Lewis? Clive Lewis was a new MP. I think that was

:46:35.:46:39.

probably his problem. Jon Trickett I think quite a lot of people wanted

:46:40.:46:44.

him to run. I chatted to him about, I think his view was that he felt he

:46:45.:46:49.

had worked for Ed Miliband, he had actually also worked for Gordon

:46:50.:46:52.

Brown and Tony Blair. He felt it needed someone a bit more

:46:53.:46:56.

anti-establishment. His sense was that he was a bit too associated

:46:57.:46:59.

with what had gone before, that they needed someone completely would be a

:47:00.:47:05.

breath of fresh air. I don't think even the people who wanted Jeremy in

:47:06.:47:09.

the end thought that he would prove so popular and that it would take

:47:10.:47:13.

off like it did. I am sure they are all thrilled. What was your

:47:14.:47:17.

impression of the man at the end of the book, having done all this

:47:18.:47:20.

research, did it change dramatically? It did even though to

:47:21.:47:25.

the extent that I had been in the lobby for ten years... And you will

:47:26.:47:29.

have known him, like I did, he was always there. Always in the

:47:30.:47:33.

background, always taking up these issues which were very important to

:47:34.:47:36.

lots of people, but perhaps slightly on the periphery. He was not a

:47:37.:47:40.

leading light in Parliament and certainly he did never want anything

:47:41.:47:43.

to do with people like me, lobby journalists. He was a columnist on

:47:44.:47:48.

the morning Star. I did not know him very well. He was quite

:47:49.:47:52.

one-dimensional figure to me. Now I have learned that he has an

:47:53.:47:55.

absolutely fascinating back story. For any biographer, you want to have

:47:56.:47:59.

an interesting childhood and used, and he certainly had that. There

:48:00.:48:02.

were lots of things that I learned in that respect. I came away

:48:03.:48:06.

thinking that he is a very good man, a very decent man. It is what a lot

:48:07.:48:11.

of people say about him on both sides of the House. Yes, he cares a

:48:12.:48:15.

lot about people and he wants to do good. I think he genuinely puts

:48:16.:48:20.

other people first. And so I came away liking him and respecting him.

:48:21.:48:25.

Perhaps like lots of people, I had issues on various parts of his

:48:26.:48:29.

political stance, but as a man he is fascinating. In terms of whether he

:48:30.:48:33.

really wanted it, you said yourself he did not particularly think about

:48:34.:48:38.

it before he was sort of children. And there has been some talk that he

:48:39.:48:42.

would not enjoy it, that he would find it hard work being thrust into

:48:43.:48:46.

the centre, having been as you say an MP who had pursued his own pet

:48:47.:48:51.

policies - has that changed? I sense he is enjoying it a little bit more,

:48:52.:48:55.

only from observing him on screens and on radio. I think so, too. When

:48:56.:49:02.

he began his journey, at the start, he was very focused on trying to get

:49:03.:49:07.

onto the ballot. When he did do that, he was pleased, obviously. But

:49:08.:49:12.

a day or two later he had a panic, he was really worried about what the

:49:13.:49:15.

attention would be like for him. He is very private, he does not like

:49:16.:49:19.

talking about his family. He hates that his family are now in the

:49:20.:49:22.

public eye and he has a problem with that. And yet as time went on, think

:49:23.:49:27.

back to last summer, going to those wellies and appearing in front of

:49:28.:49:30.

thousands of people who think you're absolutely fantastic, it must be

:49:31.:49:34.

totally intoxicating. I don't know! Me, neither. I am sure I'm not sure

:49:35.:49:42.

-- I am sure anyone would enjoy that. Then we went back again and

:49:43.:49:47.

you get to the beginning of his leadership, the knock-about, the

:49:48.:49:51.

Shadow Cabinet, I think that is all quite difficult. And I think he had

:49:52.:49:55.

that process all over again. At the beginning it was like, oh gosh, what

:49:56.:50:00.

have I done? And now, I think he enjoys it. Do you know him? I have

:50:01.:50:04.

met him a couple of times. I do think he is starting to enjoy it

:50:05.:50:08.

more. He is a very decent man. I think if you are a Labour Party

:50:09.:50:13.

member or MP, or if you care about the Labour Party and its future, I

:50:14.:50:16.

think you have to admit that we're not where we need to be. We need to

:50:17.:50:21.

be doing more to hold the government to account and more to talk about

:50:22.:50:24.

what people out in the country are talking about. While I think Jeremy

:50:25.:50:29.

has a huge mandate, not just from a Phil Yates and supporters but from

:50:30.:50:32.

members, and deserves a chance to lead as he sees fit, with that

:50:33.:50:36.

mandate comes responsible to. Responsibility not just to win

:50:37.:50:41.

elections in May and beyond, but I think to start talking about the

:50:42.:50:45.

things that people out there care about, and coming up with solutions

:50:46.:50:52.

and answers for problems in the country today and in the future, on

:50:53.:50:54.

welfare, immigration, housing and other issues. The London mayoral

:50:55.:51:03.

election is seen as a big test, do you think, for Jeremy Corbyn and his

:51:04.:51:06.

leadership? Everybody reads into this what they want. People who are

:51:07.:51:11.

supporters of Jeremy would see a victory in the London mayoral

:51:12.:51:13.

election as a vindication of his leadership. I think London has got

:51:14.:51:15.

and he its own political culture. William

:51:16.:51:31.

and he candidate. Michael Douglas says he

:51:32.:51:34.

has got 99 days - do you agree with him? I'm not sure. We have got 4.5

:51:35.:51:38.

years until the election. But him? I'm not sure. We have got 4.5

:51:39.:51:42.

will be a very clear signal as to how we are doing out in the country,

:51:43.:51:49.

and whether Jeremy Corbyn's politics are resonating. That was the big

:51:50.:51:53.

pumice of his campaign, that we could pull back voters in Scotland

:51:54.:51:56.

and in parts of the country where people have not voted Labour. Have

:51:57.:52:02.

you had a goodly reaction from Labour activists? I have had a bit

:52:03.:52:05.

of nervousness from the Labour Party. And I think that as they read

:52:06.:52:08.

it they will be a bit Party. And I think that as they read

:52:09.:52:15.

because they did not want to have a muckraking, salacious read, and the

:52:16.:52:16.

first muckraking, salacious read, and the

:52:17.:52:18.

is not that. The muckraking, salacious read, and the

:52:19.:52:23.

there, poised to jump on me if it was that. Hopefully when they read

:52:24.:52:27.

it, they will learn that it is not. It really isn't. It is an

:52:28.:52:31.

examination of Jerry Corbyn as a man, and a biography, discussing

:52:32.:52:34.

what happened over the summer, and how he

:52:35.:52:37.

what happened over the summer, and impossible feat. Will you

:52:38.:52:41.

what happened over the summer, and Yes, it sounds very interesting! You

:52:42.:52:46.

cannot say no! And actually I think progressive politics in our country

:52:47.:52:49.

faces an enormous challenge. I wonder whether the Labour Party

:52:50.:52:50.

faces sort of two camps which are wonder whether the Labour Party

:52:51.:52:56.

ultimately irreconcilable. We wonder whether the Labour Party

:52:57.:52:58.

been through our own near death experience. And in the interests of

:52:59.:53:02.

democracy, it is critically important that the government has an

:53:03.:53:06.

effective, credible tonnage of. I desperately want a liberal,

:53:07.:53:09.

progressive force in this country which can take on the Conservative

:53:10.:53:13.

garment. Will you read it? I certainly will, I shall

:53:14.:53:16.

garment. Will you read it? I from the library, if that is all

:53:17.:53:18.

right! You're very brave to say that! I think he is a very

:53:19.:53:27.

interesting man. They are quite an intellectual group. I think

:53:28.:53:31.

governments should have a credible opposition. Quite often they are

:53:32.:53:35.

thinking, 85 years hence, which is all very well. But actually it is

:53:36.:53:39.

about what they would do, and the British people need to know. They

:53:40.:53:43.

have got a long-term economic plan, dare I say it!

:53:44.:53:51.

You may have noticed it's a presidential election year

:53:52.:53:53.

Rather a lot's been said before a single vote has even been cast,

:53:54.:53:59.

but overnight tonight Democrat and Republican voters in the state

:54:00.:54:01.

of Iowa will cast their ballots at the start of the process

:54:02.:54:04.

which will see the two parties select their candidate

:54:05.:54:06.

The BBC's Rajini Vaidyanathan is there, and she's been out to see

:54:07.:54:10.

how many candidates she could meet in a day.

:54:11.:54:12.

It is just after nine in Des Moines, Iowa,

:54:13.:54:15.

All the candidates are trying to crisscross the state to get

:54:16.:54:19.

as many votes as they can in the caucuses.

:54:20.:54:21.

So, I've got a list of where the candidates are going to be

:54:22.:54:24.

and I'm going to see how many of them I can meet.

:54:25.:54:27.

He is doing a coffee and bagels meeting.

:54:28.:54:38.

Just over there, we will see that we can get a word with him.

:54:39.:54:42.

Do you think you have a shot in this race?

:54:43.:54:44.

We've been in the car for two hours and we finally arrived at the place

:54:45.:54:56.

where we are hoping to catch the next candidate, but we're late.

:54:57.:55:00.

You have the right to exercise your Second Amendment rights.

:55:01.:55:09.

Are we allowed to place restrictions on that?

:55:10.:55:11.

Only in the most extreme circumstances, like if you're

:55:12.:55:14.

That was Chris Christie, the second candidate of today.

:55:15.:55:17.

Stop No 3 for a Bernie Sanders event.

:55:18.:55:25.

We're talking about making public colleges and universities tuition-

:55:26.:55:29.

We only had to drive a short way from our last one.

:55:30.:55:42.

We've met three candidates and there is a long queue

:55:43.:55:46.

for the next person we're going to see.

:55:47.:56:03.

It is 5.30 in the evening and we've driven all across this state

:56:04.:56:06.

searching the candidates and we're now in a place called Wilton

:56:07.:56:10.

and we're going to see one more candidate.

:56:11.:56:13.

And it protected the Second Amendment right to keep and bear

:56:14.:56:16.

So, we've travelled 350 miles and we've met four candidates

:56:17.:56:23.

and one former president who is married to a candidate.

:56:24.:56:28.

It made us realise that we're exhausted, so imagine

:56:29.:56:31.

what the candidates are going through on a daily basis

:56:32.:56:33.

I am exhausted just watching it! What you make of the presidential

:56:34.:56:49.

contest so far? It is really interesting, I think. Is that a

:56:50.:56:55.

euphemism? Horrified! For what I know, Iowa is a very different

:56:56.:56:58.

primary from the others. But the whole thing says to me, on both

:56:59.:57:03.

sides, just the rise of populism and the attack on traditional political

:57:04.:57:09.

elites, it is happening around the world but in America seems to be in

:57:10.:57:13.

its rawest form. Are you worried, horrified, as Norman Lamb said, or

:57:14.:57:19.

excited? More worried than excited. I think there is some extraordinary

:57:20.:57:22.

combinations which could come out of this. I think Iowa will not reflect

:57:23.:57:26.

what we will see over the next few months. It is a kick-start to a

:57:27.:57:31.

whole run of events but it is used as the straw poll to cushion what do

:57:32.:57:36.

you think will happen at this stage? I hope that ultimately, Hillary

:57:37.:57:40.

Clinton will prevail. It does not mean I am a great enthusiast. But

:57:41.:57:45.

ultimately I think in a democracy you want someone who can inspire

:57:46.:57:48.

people but also politics based on rational judgment and evidence. When

:57:49.:57:55.

you hear Donald Trump talking, I mean, it is just, it is a nightmare.

:57:56.:57:59.

The idea that the free world as it is called could be led by someone

:58:00.:58:03.

like him... We keep the making assumption that he will fall and

:58:04.:58:06.

crash but it does not happen. I don't think we can make any

:58:07.:58:08.

assumptions about the outcome of this. On issues of fairness and

:58:09.:58:13.

clarity in this programme, we showed a copy of John McDonnell's tax

:58:14.:58:20.

return, and I said I was not sure what we could see from it. Just to

:58:21.:58:25.

be clear, his office have called to say that the whole tax return has

:58:26.:58:28.

been published, and you can go and find it if you want to. Just time to

:58:29.:58:33.

find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, what did Tory MP Jacob

:58:34.:58:43.

Rees Mogg warned might happen? Was it...? Anyone know the correct

:58:44.:58:51.

answer? It was biscuits. It was. Stopping the trans fats being used

:58:52.:58:55.

to make Al biscuits delicious. Well done! That is it for today. Bye-bye.

:58:56.:59:13.

to the decline and fall of a charity empire.

:59:14.:59:14.

The Government thought it was the right thing to do.

:59:15.:59:19.

They're going to make me the demon of Peckham.

:59:20.:59:22.

Jo Coburn presents the latest political news, interviews and debate live from Westminster. She is joined by the Conservative Party's Anne-Marie Trevelyan MP, Labour's Matthew Pennycook MP and Norman Lamb MP of the Liberal Democrats.


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