04/02/2016 Daily Politics


04/02/2016

Andrew Neil is joined by former foreign secretary Margaret Beckett to discuss the latest news and debate from Westminster.


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David Cameron promises to put "beyond doubt" the sovereignty

:00:38.:00:43.

of Parliament over the European Union.

:00:44.:00:47.

The Prime Minister will acede to demands from Boris Johnson

:00:48.:00:49.

for a new law to assert the authority of Westminster over

:00:50.:00:54.

World leaders gather in London for a conference on Syria

:00:55.:01:02.

while Russian jets pummell Aleppo and peace talks break down.

:01:03.:01:06.

Will billions more for Syrian refugees make much of a difference

:01:07.:01:09.

Whatever happened to Labour's eurosceptics?

:01:10.:01:13.

Lots of them voted No in 1975, so where are they now?

:01:14.:01:17.

And, it all came down to the toss of a coin

:01:18.:01:23.

So just how important is coin tossing in the democratic process?

:01:24.:01:33.

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

:01:34.:01:37.

of the programme today is the former Labour Foreign Secretary,

:01:38.:01:40.

First this morning, world leaders have descended on Westminster today

:01:41.:01:49.

in an attempt to raise over ?6 billion to help those

:01:50.:01:52.

David Cameron has pledged an additional ?1.2 billion

:01:53.:02:00.

in aid to support refugees in the region.

:02:01.:02:06.

-- that's on top of the ?1 billion we have spent in the area.

:02:07.:02:12.

Here is the Prime Minister speaking earlier today.

:02:13.:02:14.

If ever there was a moment to take a new approach to the humanitarian

:02:15.:02:17.

We are facing a critical short fall in life-saving aid,

:02:18.:02:22.

that is fatally holding back our humanitarian efforts.

:02:23.:02:28.

And after years of conflict, we are witnessing a desperate

:02:29.:02:30.

movement of humanity, as hundreds of thousands of Syrians

:02:31.:02:35.

fear they have no alternative than to put their lives in the hands

:02:36.:02:38.

of evil people smugglers, in search of a future.

:02:39.:02:46.

We're joined now by our correspondent, Ben Brown,

:02:47.:02:48.

who's at the conference in Westminster.

:02:49.:02:54.

He is with David Miliband. On the Daily Politics, you get two Labour

:02:55.:03:02.

former Foreign Secretaries for the price of one. Over to you, Mr Brown.

:03:03.:03:09.

Well, international leaders at the London Syria Donor's Conference

:03:10.:03:15.

being asked to dig deep. ?9 billen is the amount that has been asked

:03:16.:03:23.

for. $9 billion. Let's talk to David Miliband straight away. David

:03:24.:03:27.

Cameron promising ?1.2 billion, another ?1 billion of tax payers'

:03:28.:03:31.

money for this emergency. Is that money well-spent? How do you justify

:03:32.:03:36.

that to a British taxpayer? I think thats is necessary. It is not a

:03:37.:03:40.

matter of being the right thing to do, because these are people in

:03:41.:03:43.

desperate need, both inside Syria and the neighbouring state. It is

:03:44.:03:46.

also a smart thing to do. All the evidence is that unless the

:03:47.:03:49.

humanitarian needs are met, that there will be an exodus from the

:03:50.:03:53.

Middle East and Europe will be in the frontline T makes sense to do

:03:54.:03:58.

this, as well as being the right thing to do. -- it makes It so it is

:03:59.:04:04.

essentially in Europe and Britain's self-interest to spend money in

:04:05.:04:09.

countries like Jordon, Turkey, Lebanon, almost to persuade the

:04:10.:04:11.

millions of refugees it stay there, not to come to Europe. It is a

:04:12.:04:16.

matter of global instability. The idea it is a Syrian war is wrong. It

:04:17.:04:21.

is a contagion that has spread across the Middle East. The exodus

:04:22.:04:24.

of a million people coming to Europe last year shows the price of the

:04:25.:04:29.

political failure to bring this war to a close P my organisation has

:04:30.:04:34.

2,000 staff inside Syria. Daily barrel bombs, daily Russian bombing

:04:35.:04:38.

raids and terror devices and for those who flee in the neighbouring

:04:39.:04:42.

states, 200,000 kids without education in Lebanon. Hundreds of

:04:43.:04:45.

thousands of people without jobs in Jordon. There needs to be a new deal

:04:46.:04:51.

for those refugees. To be fair to the Government they are recognising

:04:52.:04:56.

the need for more aid which you pointed to but different aid,

:04:57.:05:00.

long-term economic health, not just short-term humanitarian financing.

:05:01.:05:03.

The emphasis of the British Government here is very much helping

:05:04.:05:07.

the refugees who have stayed in the region, in Lebanon and Turkey, but

:05:08.:05:11.

not on helping those who have come to Europe. Is that the right

:05:12.:05:13.

approach, David Cameron's approach The truth is, you have to do both.

:05:14.:05:18.

Most of the refugees are the anybody nag states of Syria. You wouldn't

:05:19.:05:22.

know that from the media comment. You would think they were in Europe

:05:23.:05:27.

but a country like Jordan, 20% of the population is Syrian refugees. A

:05:28.:05:32.

country like Lebanon, 40% are Syrian refugees. Those countries are

:05:33.:05:36.

bearing the brunt of the load. For those in Europe, I think there is a

:05:37.:05:39.

strong case that Europe has to justify and address the refugee

:05:40.:05:42.

needs they have got. Refugees have rights in international law that

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should be represented. People like me think Britain should be playing

:05:46.:05:48.

its part in that. You have to do both. It is right to work in the

:05:49.:05:53.

region but it is also right to recognise that those fleeing for

:05:54.:05:56.

their lives need to be looked after OK, David mill bant of the

:05:57.:05:59.

Commission on International Rescue, stay with us. -- David Miliband. The

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track record on the conference coming up with the cash it has been

:06:05.:06:09.

asked for is not great. The last year, the international can be

:06:10.:06:11.

community have only come up with 50% of the money that has been pledged.

:06:12.:06:16.

We will see what happens this time around. Thank you very much Ben

:06:17.:06:19.

Brown, there, outside the international conference on aid for

:06:20.:06:23.

Syria. The humanitarian case for sending

:06:24.:06:26.

aid and more aid is clear but the argument that if we do that t stops

:06:27.:06:30.

them becoming migrants, I would suggest is not so clear. We have

:06:31.:06:39.

already given ?1 billion and this January alone, 767,000 migrants came

:06:40.:06:44.

to Europe from that and other regions, verses 5,000 in January

:06:45.:06:48.

2015. -- 67,000. I don't think anybody would suggest it would stop

:06:49.:06:52.

all of them but something a lot of people have forgotten is blast year

:06:53.:06:56.

at a fairly crucial time, because the money, as Ben was just saying,

:06:57.:07:02.

wasn't coming in that people had promised, the international

:07:03.:07:03.

organisations actually cut the funding that was going to people.

:07:04.:07:08.

They cut the food aid. They cut the money people were receiving and

:07:09.:07:11.

that's what lay behind that sudden great surge of people. If that

:07:12.:07:14.

happens again, then, yes, that will increase the pressure on people

:07:15.:07:18.

wanting to leave. But, clearly, there are substantial numbers of

:07:19.:07:23.

people who do prefer to stay in the region, to stay in the locality but

:07:24.:07:27.

they won't, if they can't provide for their families there, the

:07:28.:07:31.

security they left Syria to achieve. But even if we double the money and

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if, unlike last time countries that make promises live up to their

:07:37.:07:42.

promises, which as Ben Brown was pointing out, they didn't, are we

:07:43.:07:47.

seriously saying we are going to create sustainable communities with

:07:48.:07:50.

jobs and education in the refugee catches? I mean, we have got - there

:07:51.:07:54.

is a picture of one that we can probably put up on the screen now,

:07:55.:07:59.

just to give an idea of the scale of this. I mean they are all over

:08:00.:08:04.

Jordan now and they are in other parts of the area, on the edge of

:08:05.:08:07.

Turkey. Are we seriously saying that - even if we were to pump billion

:08:08.:08:13.

upon billion in, that we can make sustainable communities out of that?

:08:14.:08:20.

That? I understand and share your anxiety, if you like and scepticism,

:08:21.:08:24.

not least because, you know n lots of countries, including this one,

:08:25.:08:28.

creating jobs is not always that easy. And that's what we are talking

:08:29.:08:32.

about doing. On the other hand, I do think it is worth trying. . The

:08:33.:08:40.

situation is so desperate you have to try anything. And something that

:08:41.:08:44.

could make the lives of these people in the camps better, whether they

:08:45.:08:48.

are in the region or in Europe, has to be the right way to go. Obviously

:08:49.:08:52.

when you see the camps you want to do what you can to at least make

:08:53.:08:57.

life bearable until there is a solution sorted out but there is

:08:58.:09:00.

another problem. As we speak and as they gore for this enormous --

:09:01.:09:05.

gather for this enormous conference down the frood here, Assad's forces

:09:06.:09:10.

and Russian bombers are thumping the surrounding areas of Aleppo as we go

:09:11.:09:15.

on and the peace talks have had to be suspended in general eva, as we

:09:16.:09:20.

spend -- Geneva. As we spend, thousands and thousands more

:09:21.:09:23.

refugees are being created. There is clearly very much that risk and

:09:24.:09:28.

that's why it is important not to - I mean, I understand anybody who

:09:29.:09:32.

says - I look at and that I despair, there is nothing we can do. But that

:09:33.:09:38.

will only make things worse. It is a council of despair. We have to try.

:09:39.:09:48.

Well Well, let's stay in the region. Now, it's been over two months

:09:49.:09:52.

since the House of Commons voted to extend British airstrikes

:09:53.:09:54.

targeting the so-called Islamic State group

:09:55.:09:56.

from Iraq into Syria. But as the media focus

:09:57.:09:58.

on the parliamentary debate has subsided, what action has the RAF

:09:59.:10:00.

actually been taking? around Mosul and Ramadi

:10:01.:10:03.

which are both in Iraq. Since the 29th January,

:10:04.:10:11.

the RAF has carried out four separate air strikes around

:10:12.:10:16.

the area of Mosul in Iraq. and also an attack near

:10:17.:10:24.

the Kisik Junction both in Iraq. On Friday and Sunday there were also

:10:25.:10:36.

RAF air strikes carried out We're joined now by our

:10:37.:10:38.

correspondent Paul Adams. RAF air strikes are obviously taking

:10:39.:10:54.

part in coalition force air strikes. Do we have any idea of what our,

:10:55.:10:57.

what British air strikes are Do we have any idea of what our,

:10:58.:11:01.

Well, as you just outlined, the bulk Do we have any idea of what our,

:11:02.:11:06.

of the operations remain in Iraq and you have explained why that is,

:11:07.:11:09.

because there are ground operations and in a way that is not the case in

:11:10.:11:12.

Syria. So we are and in a way that is not the case in

:11:13.:11:17.

activity still around Ramadi, which was recaptured

:11:18.:11:21.

activity still around Ramadi, which situation remains

:11:22.:11:35.

activity still around Ramadi, which there is a lot of focus

:11:36.:11:37.

activity still around Ramadi, which soften-up ISIS

:11:38.:11:40.

activity still around Ramadi, which of Defence won't give

:11:41.:11:44.

if you like, a national breakdown on achievements but they do say

:11:45.:11:46.

if you like, a national breakdown on the course of these operations - and

:11:47.:11:51.

by the way the tempo of the operations has

:11:52.:11:53.

by the way the tempo of the dramatically since December. The

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Ministry of Defence says it roughly trebled

:11:57.:11:58.

Ministry of Defence says it roughly involvement. But the overall effect

:11:59.:12:03.

they say is so-called Islamic State has lost around 24% of the territory

:12:04.:12:08.

it he previously controlled in Iraq and around about 10% in Syria. They

:12:09.:12:13.

talk about operations going back to Tikrit. And they talk about the

:12:14.:12:18.

impact on oil revenues. A 30% cut on the oil revenue that is so-called

:12:19.:12:23.

Islamic State can achieve and a 10% cut in its overall available budget.

:12:24.:12:24.

They think the air strikes cut in its overall available budget.

:12:25.:12:28.

having an impact but, of course, it's difficult to see that

:12:29.:12:32.

having an impact but, of course, when ISIS retains its grip, if

:12:33.:12:40.

having an impact but, of course, tactical operations in

:12:41.:12:40.

countries. What are you hearing, Paul, perhaps, about widening the

:12:41.:12:52.

war against Islamic State to the med terry andian coastline of --

:12:53.:12:55.

Mediterranean coastline of Libya, where they appear to be well

:12:56.:12:59.

ensconced If you remember the terrorist attacks in last year in

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Tunisia, there was a strong connection to that. Growing fears

:13:03.:13:07.

about whether Libya could emerge as a significant IS base. Reports

:13:08.:13:11.

recently that a number of IS figures from Iraq and Syria have moved to

:13:12.:13:18.

Libya. So, yes, there are clearly efforts being undertaken to examine

:13:19.:13:21.

the possibilities for widening the campaign. There is a British

:13:22.:13:25.

training operation that's ready to go. It is just waiting for an

:13:26.:13:30.

invitation from the Libyans to go in there. There were reports of

:13:31.:13:38.

intelligence and SAS elements going into eastern Libya to possibly

:13:39.:13:41.

prepare the ground for some kind of operations. The Ministry of Defence

:13:42.:13:44.

say there is no immediate prospect of any of that. But I don't think

:13:45.:13:49.

anyone will be surprised if, in the coming months, we didn't seat US-led

:13:50.:13:54.

coalition, and various members of that coalition turning their

:13:55.:13:56.

attention to Libya and mounting air strikes. -- if we didn't see the

:13:57.:14:00.

US-led coalition. There is a threat. Thank you for

:14:01.:14:07.

filling us in. Margaret Beckett, it would be fair to say, as regards

:14:08.:14:11.

Syria the extension of air strikes to Syria hasn't made much of a

:14:12.:14:14.

difference yet Well, if you recall, during the debate we had in the

:14:15.:14:17.

House of Commons, there was this curious sort of mixture that on the

:14:18.:14:21.

one hand, obviously it was an important decision of principle and

:14:22.:14:24.

one that people attached great significance to, but on the other

:14:25.:14:27.

hand, the step we were taking was really very small. It is just to

:14:28.:14:32.

say, the RAF no longer has to stop at the border. And that was quite a

:14:33.:14:37.

stark contrast that did emerge in that debate. So, yes, they are doing

:14:38.:14:42.

a great deal but one of the things I think is interesting and useful, is

:14:43.:14:45.

that those who argued we should still stop at the border, shouldn't

:14:46.:14:48.

have any involvement in Syria a lot of that you are argument was - we

:14:49.:14:52.

should be going instead for their sources of funding and so on and of

:14:53.:14:56.

course that's exactly what the RAF is doing. The in sense of what is

:14:57.:15:00.

bombing, the boils? Bombing oil wells. The US Air Force seemed to

:15:01.:15:07.

bomb the bank in Mosul and blew up several hundred million dollars Alf

:15:08.:15:08.

You don't regret your support for new kind of military pollcy. Yes.

:15:09.:15:18.

You don't regret your support for extending the bombing? No, I don't.

:15:19.:15:22.

It wasn't an easy decision for anyone but as I say, is a matter of

:15:23.:15:27.

principle it was important that it was the House of Commons taking the

:15:28.:15:32.

decision but in practice it was a small step that we were authorising.

:15:33.:15:37.

Do you now get the impression, given that the Iraqi army and other forces

:15:38.:15:41.

have made some progress in reclaiming some towns, and we hear

:15:42.:15:46.

these reports, those of us who remember the Vietnam War are always

:15:47.:15:53.

dubious unofficial body counts. We hear that Islamic State is

:15:54.:15:57.

suffering. I saw some reports that a number of fighters were moving into

:15:58.:16:02.

Raqqa because it was dangerous with the bombing around there. Do you get

:16:03.:16:07.

the sense that they are now on the defensive? 18 months ago it seemed

:16:08.:16:10.

as though they were taking all before them. It seems to me as

:16:11.:16:15.

though some impact has been achieved because it's not very long ago that

:16:16.:16:22.

people were talking about them being on the brink of taking Baghdad and

:16:23.:16:25.

now they will take the whole of Iraq, but that is not happen. Yes,

:16:26.:16:32.

it's slow, and no doubt very painful, but it seems as though it

:16:33.:16:35.

is making a difference and that's the point. We will keep an eye on

:16:36.:16:38.

what's happening. The question for today

:16:39.:16:39.

is what narrowly missed hitting Margaret in the chamber

:16:40.:16:43.

yesterday? B, a copy of the Beckett report

:16:44.:16:53.

into why Labour lost the election? At the end of the show Margaret

:16:54.:16:58.

will give us the correct answer. David Cameron has suggested he may

:16:59.:17:04.

bring forward legislation to ensure the sovereignty of

:17:05.:17:07.

Parliament over the EU. The Prime Minister was responding

:17:08.:17:15.

to a question yesterday from the Mayor of London,

:17:16.:17:20.

and Tory MP Boris Johnson. Mr Cameron said he was "keen to do

:17:21.:17:22.

more" to reassert the authority of the Commons at the same time

:17:23.:17:25.

as concluding his EU renegotiation. The Prime Minister said

:17:26.:17:28.

he would "put beyond doubt" the sovereignty of Parliament

:17:29.:17:33.

when in exchanges in with Boris This could come through beefing up

:17:34.:17:35.

the Supreme Court to make it analagous with the German

:17:36.:17:40.

Constuitutional Court - which reviews legislation inlcuding

:17:41.:17:44.

EU law to ensure compliance Of course, Germany has a written

:17:45.:17:46.

constitution. However, it has been suggested that

:17:47.:17:52.

such changes would be largely symbolic as there is no suggestion

:17:53.:17:55.

it could actually veto EU law. And of course the German courts

:17:56.:17:58.

never has. It is thought Mr Cameron is keen

:17:59.:18:02.

for the Justice Secretary, Michael Gove, to lead these changes,

:18:03.:18:05.

though Mr Gove is said to be caught between his "conscience" and loyalty

:18:06.:18:08.

to the Prime Minister. A sovereignty law is also

:18:09.:18:10.

being drafted by policy chief Oliver Letwin,

:18:11.:18:14.

but some are sceptical about how the UK could effectively "disapply"

:18:15.:18:19.

EU law without massive fines and throwing our

:18:20.:18:21.

membership into doubt. It's not even clear if that is what

:18:22.:18:29.

the Prime Minister intends. Some Conservative MPs and MEPs

:18:30.:18:33.

are also lobbying the Prime Minister to repeal Sections 2 and 3

:18:34.:18:36.

of the 1972 European Communities Act That is the one that made us members

:18:37.:18:41.

of the common market. That would effectively render EU law

:18:42.:18:48.

unenforceable within the UK - and again be seen as

:18:49.:18:50.

a declaration of war on the EU. And the first step to getting out

:18:51.:18:54.

altogether. Let's have a look at the exchange

:18:55.:18:57.

between David Cameron and his old Etonian pal Boris

:18:58.:19:03.

in the House of Commons yesterday. Perhaps I ask could the Prime

:19:04.:19:05.

Minister how these changes as a result of this

:19:06.:19:08.

negotiation will restrict of legislation coming from Brussels,

:19:09.:19:10.

will change the treaty, so as to assert the sovereignty

:19:11.:19:15.

of this House of Commons and these In terms of asserting

:19:16.:19:18.

the sovereignty of this House, that is something we did in 2010,

:19:19.:19:23.

through the European Referendum Act, and it's something I'm

:19:24.:19:31.

keen to do even more on, to put beyond doubt that this House

:19:32.:19:34.

of Commons is sovereign and that is something

:19:35.:19:36.

that we will look to do at the same time as concluding

:19:37.:19:39.

these negotiations. In terms of what are we doing

:19:40.:19:41.

to restrict the flow of legislation from Brussels, for the first time

:19:42.:19:44.

ever in here is a commitment not only that Europe has to examine

:19:45.:19:48.

all of its competences every year to work out what should be

:19:49.:19:51.

returned to nation states, you have welfare powers

:19:52.:19:55.

and immigration powers that I have Bailout powers coming back,

:19:56.:19:58.

and the massive return of power we achieved in the last

:19:59.:20:02.

parliament, the justice The biggest return of power

:20:03.:20:04.

from Brussels to Britain We have absolutely nailed it down

:20:05.:20:08.

in these discussions to make sure I'm not saying this is perfect,

:20:09.:20:14.

I'm not saying the European Union will be perfect after this deal,

:20:15.:20:27.

it certainly won't, but will the British position be

:20:28.:20:30.

better and stronger? That was the Prime Minister replying

:20:31.:20:40.

to Boris Johnson. Joshua Rosenberg joins me from Belfast. We hope to

:20:41.:20:46.

talk to Craig McNally from the Houses of Parliament. When I studied

:20:47.:20:50.

political science we were taught that Parliament was always

:20:51.:20:56.

sovereign, particularly the Commons. The Queen in Parliament is always

:20:57.:20:59.

sovereign. Why does restating that make any difference? You are right,

:21:00.:21:05.

it won't. The Queen in Parliament, that is the House of Commons, the

:21:06.:21:13.

house of lords, and the Queen who has to give Royal assent, are

:21:14.:21:16.

sovereign and the courts accept that. It is Beverly true that in the

:21:17.:21:25.

1972 act the House of Commons, the House of Lords and the Queen agreed

:21:26.:21:30.

to cede sovereignty in part to Europe and Parliament could repeal

:21:31.:21:35.

parts of the legislation to retain sovereignty. -- it is perfectly

:21:36.:21:40.

true. There is no need to put the sovereignty of Parliament beyond

:21:41.:21:44.

doubt, it is sovereign. Parliament can do what it once but if it puts a

:21:45.:21:48.

limit on EU migrants coming to this country, which is in clear breach of

:21:49.:21:54.

EU law, either the EU law takes precedence even though Parliament is

:21:55.:21:58.

sovereign or the Parliament is heading for the exit, it is taking

:21:59.:22:03.

Britain out, one or the other. I would suggest you cannot break that

:22:04.:22:06.

kind of law and still be a member of the EU. Yes, it would breach the

:22:07.:22:13.

treaties that tie the UK to the EU law and it would pose a dilemma for

:22:14.:22:19.

Parliament which has been told that EU law trumps domestic law so it

:22:20.:22:22.

would have to be made clear what the courts were meant to do. That's a

:22:23.:22:27.

matter for Parliament, and you don't need to strengthen the UK's Supreme

:22:28.:22:32.

Court, you simply need to tell the court which law to apply. Craig

:22:33.:22:40.

McKinley is in the Commons, and they have just dotted debating this. What

:22:41.:22:45.

do you think about the emphasis on sovereignty? We have to be

:22:46.:22:50.

realistic, to get 55% of our European partners to actually blog a

:22:51.:22:54.

law that we don't find acceptable, I don't think that barrier could never

:22:55.:22:59.

be reached. His red card is something that will never be used.

:23:00.:23:02.

Of course Parliament is sovereign in that we can vote down completely the

:23:03.:23:10.

European communities act and subsequent treaties and I hope that

:23:11.:23:14.

is what we will do in the national referendum, so in that way it is

:23:15.:23:20.

sovereign. With the European court of justice and the body treaties

:23:21.:23:23.

over the years, we are not in control of our own house

:23:24.:23:29.

over the years, we are not in and it not acceptable to me. For

:23:30.:23:29.

you, does and it not acceptable to me. For

:23:30.:23:29.

of an explicit declaration of and it not acceptable to me. For

:23:30.:23:37.

Parliament, perhaps even at the thing up of the Supreme Court,

:23:38.:23:42.

Parliament, perhaps even at the have seen it mentioned too. Does it

:23:43.:23:46.

make any difference? It is better than the situation we have been in

:23:47.:23:51.

for many years. I pay tribute to the Prime Minister for offering this

:23:52.:23:54.

negotiation and having the referendum. What difference does the

:23:55.:23:58.

sovereignty offer make? It doesn't mean much at all which is why we are

:23:59.:24:02.

having this wide ranging debate. I am sure these matters will be aired

:24:03.:24:06.

and I am taking a robust stance and I hope many people will watch. We

:24:07.:24:11.

have changed in this parliament because it is looking as though it

:24:12.:24:16.

could become a museum. It looks like a museum behind you at the moment!

:24:17.:24:22.

As lovely as it is. The sovereignty of Parliament is abstract and I'm

:24:23.:24:27.

not of Parliament is abstract and I'm

:24:28.:24:29.

is until it's lost. I like of Parliament is abstract and I'm

:24:30.:24:36.

get rid of me but they can't get of Parliament is abstract and I'm

:24:37.:24:46.

gone in the process. The top of the German Constitutional Court, it

:24:47.:24:49.

looks at all of the laws that are passed by the German parliament and

:24:50.:24:53.

by the European system, the commission or Parliament as well. It

:24:54.:24:58.

decides whether the laws are compatible with the constitution,

:24:59.:25:03.

like the Supreme Court in the United States and our Supreme Court has a

:25:04.:25:07.

bit of that as well, I would suggest. Germany has a written

:25:08.:25:13.

constitution and we don't, and secondly, the German Constitutional

:25:14.:25:16.

Court has never ruled that an EU law was incompatible with the German

:25:17.:25:22.

constitution. What if it were to do so? You would have a clash between

:25:23.:25:29.

obligations in Germany as to the obligations of Germany and the

:25:30.:25:35.

court. You could give powers to the UK Supreme Court to declare laws

:25:36.:25:39.

unconstitutional, even without a codified constitution which some

:25:40.:25:43.

people think would be required. Then what would happen? You would have a

:25:44.:25:49.

clash between the UK, because the courts would have declared laws

:25:50.:25:54.

unconstitutional and the EU and it would have to be resolved with

:25:55.:25:58.

negotiations with Brussels. The courts have never asserted the

:25:59.:26:03.

power, even to overturn domestic legislation in the United Kingdom.

:26:04.:26:07.

Unlike in the United States and other countries. Sometimes, thinking

:26:08.:26:13.

of the Attorney General and the Prince of Wales's letters, they have

:26:14.:26:16.

made it hard for Parliament to achieve what it thought it was doing

:26:17.:26:20.

but they always access it sovereignty and until that changes

:26:21.:26:22.

and Parliament changes, that will remain the case. Is it not fair to

:26:23.:26:29.

say, that your concept of what you mean by Parliamentary sovereignty is

:26:30.:26:34.

incompatible with our membership of the European Union? I think it

:26:35.:26:39.

entirely is, there is no doubt. You do have both domestic judges but

:26:40.:26:48.

increasingly European judges reinterpreting what our sovereign

:26:49.:26:52.

parliament has decided. They have to be either overturned or our laws

:26:53.:26:55.

will be changed and it happens on a regular basis. It's not helpful and

:26:56.:27:00.

that's the reason for this debate today. I'm looking forward to it and

:27:01.:27:04.

it's part of the like that needs shining on the whole European

:27:05.:27:08.

referendum debate, because we are in great danger of it becoming one

:27:09.:27:12.

about trade and threats and the fear factor. This is getting to the heart

:27:13.:27:16.

of what Britain's relationship is with the European Union and I really

:27:17.:27:20.

do salute the backbench committee for allowing this debate and it's

:27:21.:27:24.

come at a good time. Do you fear that the Prime Minister is going

:27:25.:27:29.

down this road with his offer of emphasising the ultimate sovereignty

:27:30.:27:32.

of Parliament, because he wishes to deprive you of the one leader of the

:27:33.:27:37.

leave campaign which could make a difference, Boris Johnson. I don't

:27:38.:27:42.

know where Mr Johnson is at the moment on this, but as I say, this

:27:43.:27:48.

is a debate at the right time, we have heard lots of warm words about

:27:49.:27:52.

the renegotiation and I will come back to first principles, we were

:27:53.:27:56.

offered fundamental reform and I'm afraid that the terms of the Tusk

:27:57.:28:09.

letter, if that was the high water mark... Is this debate going to come

:28:10.:28:12.

down to how long migrants are going to be allowed to have benefits and

:28:13.:28:17.

at what rate? Whether they can remit back to their home countries. The

:28:18.:28:21.

debate should be rather wider than that. We will let you get on with

:28:22.:28:25.

the debate. Thank you for joining us. Margaret Beckett, just before we

:28:26.:28:32.

move on, the argument about sovereignty is a red herring, is it

:28:33.:28:37.

not? The one thing that is really significant about this conversation

:28:38.:28:41.

and this issue is that what it makes absolutely clear beyond question is

:28:42.:28:46.

that the most important negotiation, at the top of David Cameron's mind,

:28:47.:28:50.

is not his negotiations with the rest of the European Union but his

:28:51.:28:54.

own party and not for the first time he has come up with something off

:28:55.:28:59.

the cuff, not thought through. This is a big issue about whether the

:29:00.:29:02.

judiciary has authority over a sovereign Parliament. We seem to be

:29:03.:29:08.

walking into land. He is offering a souped up Supreme Court. It seems as

:29:09.:29:15.

though he is but not everyone has worked out what it means. Not for

:29:16.:29:20.

the first time, what does this do to his negotiations with the rest of

:29:21.:29:24.

Europe? If they get the idea into their heads that they thought they

:29:25.:29:27.

knew what he was asking for and all of a sudden he has come up with

:29:28.:29:30.

something else it will not help him to do the best for the country. He

:29:31.:29:35.

is keen to stop Boris Johnson from leading the tent. He is keen to stop

:29:36.:29:40.

Boris Johnson at all. Very well. We just had a Conservative

:29:41.:29:52.

Eurosceptics. We hear plenty from them. What about Labour

:29:53.:29:53.

Eurosceptics? Plenty within the Labour movement

:29:54.:29:55.

have long-harboured sceptical views about the EU, not least our guest

:29:56.:29:58.

of the day, Margaret Beckett, who, like Jeremy Corbyn,

:29:59.:30:01.

voted against the UK's continued The word common market was in

:30:02.:30:13.

brackets on the referendum ballot paper in 75.

:30:14.:30:16.

But now the Labour Party, under My Corbyn's leadership,

:30:17.:30:18.

says it will campaign to remain in the EU.

:30:19.:30:22.

Just how strongly, we don't yet know.

:30:23.:30:24.

So what happened to Labour's euroscepticism?

:30:25.:30:25.

We have been here before, and referendum about what Britain's

:30:26.:30:31.

In 1975 it was Labour who, after holding a special conference,

:30:32.:30:41.

decided their position should be to leave the European Economic

:30:42.:30:43.

The country decided the opposite in the referendum that was held

:30:44.:30:47.

Fast forward eight years and a gang of four had left to form the SDP.

:30:48.:30:54.

Labour pledged to bring Britain out of the EEC.

:30:55.:30:56.

A document that became known as the longest suicide

:30:57.:31:00.

Labour's rejection by voters led many who had been sceptical,

:31:01.:31:09.

Neil Kinnock in particular, to say the time has come to embrace

:31:10.:31:11.

To ensure potential gains it is necessary to work together.

:31:12.:31:27.

Your movement has a major role to play, Europe needs you.

:31:28.:31:29.

But the pivotal moment came in the autumn of 1988.

:31:30.:31:33.

The then president of the European Commission Jacques

:31:34.:31:34.

Delors made a speech to the Trade Unions Congress.

:31:35.:31:41.

He extolled the virtues of a social Europe, where workers rights

:31:42.:31:43.

and social benefits would be guaranteed on a Europe-wide basis.

:31:44.:31:49.

We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of

:31:50.:31:51.

Only to see them reimposed on a European level.

:31:52.:31:55.

Just a few weeks later Margaret Thatcher made

:31:56.:31:58.

Signalling more than a hint of euroscepticism.

:31:59.:32:08.

The first election that Labour won after its defeat in 1979

:32:09.:32:10.

Margaret Thatcher famously fought that.

:32:11.:32:20.

With the slogan, if you vote Labour you will live on a diet of Brussels.

:32:21.:32:24.

It was an explicitly Eurosceptic campaign on behalf

:32:25.:32:26.

of the Conservatives and they lost it.

:32:27.:32:27.

Labour's victory in that election validated a pro-European strategy.

:32:28.:32:30.

We must have the confidence as a political party to stand up

:32:31.:32:38.

Rethinking and reshaping its direction, of course,

:32:39.:32:43.

but being in no doubt at all that Britain's future does indeed lie

:32:44.:32:46.

The pro-European stance was solidified in the 1990s,

:32:47.:32:50.

but one Labour MP who, during Tony Blair's premiership,

:32:51.:32:54.

worked on the original EU constitution has become more

:32:55.:32:57.

She says Labour should reassess its position.

:32:58.:33:19.

Because of our internationalism, the issue of sovereignty is not

:33:20.:33:21.

There are also real scars, it was in the 80s the subject

:33:22.:33:26.

of Europe that led to a Labour Party splintering.

:33:27.:33:28.

We have remained in a comfort zone and kept saying,

:33:29.:33:30.

this is how we like the institution to be, and not being open enough

:33:31.:33:34.

We have had more results since we have come on the air.

:33:35.:33:49.

The last referendum was more than 40 years ago, but the likes

:33:50.:33:54.

of Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell and Hilary Benn were around

:33:55.:33:57.

They won't this time, and Labour's policy is clear,

:33:58.:34:00.

but at least some of their colleagues remain unconvinced.

:34:01.:34:01.

Margaret bect, you voted to come out in 1975. You are now broadly prove

:34:02.:34:07.

European. Was that a slow conversion, or did something happen

:34:08.:34:12.

to change your mind? -- pro-European? Two things. To an

:34:13.:34:17.

extent it was a slow conversion, in terms of accepting it willingly and

:34:18.:34:22.

happily. But the significant thing was that 1983 general election. If

:34:23.:34:27.

you recall - I'm sure you do, Andrew, although not all your

:34:28.:34:31.

listeners will - it was Enoch Powell during the election campaign who

:34:32.:34:36.

said, "We have now been in the European Community for ten years,

:34:37.:34:40.

increasingly our economy and society, everything is becoming more

:34:41.:34:44.

emmeshed, if we don't leave now, it is too late, it is over, we are then

:34:45.:34:48.

in there forever." That was very much the pitch on which the Labour

:34:49.:34:51.

Party, unsuccessfully fought the election. In '83 you fought with a

:34:52.:34:56.

manifesto to withdraw. The manifesto said it was incompatible with a

:34:57.:35:00.

radical, socialist agenda. Well, a will the has changed since then.

:35:01.:35:05.

Well, I don't know, you may have a leader who wants a radical,

:35:06.:35:08.

socialist agenda? What I mean is, among the things that have changed

:35:09.:35:12.

is when we were arguing we could come out and have a sustainable

:35:13.:35:17.

trading relationship, etc, we had trade links with the after

:35:18.:35:23.

countries. We still had links with the Commonwealth. All those

:35:24.:35:27.

countries, pretty much, nearly all, are in the European Union now. One

:35:28.:35:32.

of the things we said in our campaign - these six countries are

:35:33.:35:35.

not Europe. You are a bit pushed to say it is not Europe. It is so many.

:35:36.:35:39.

Speaking of Europe, we say it is not Europe. It is so many.

:35:40.:35:45.

part of it, Scotlands joins us, we have been

:35:46.:35:48.

part of it, Scotlands joins us, we questions. We are talking Europe

:35:49.:35:53.

with Margaret Becker, the former Labour Defence Secretary. Are we

:35:54.:35:59.

with Margaret Becker, the former be suspicious about how

:36:00.:36:02.

with Margaret Becker, the former that Mr Jeremy Corbyn and Mr

:36:03.:36:04.

McDonnell, the shadow that Mr Jeremy Corbyn and Mr

:36:05.:36:07.

aboutp Euro-scepticism? I don't think so. The hard left of the

:36:08.:36:11.

Labour Party has always been anti-EU at least and very eurosceptic at

:36:12.:36:16.

most. Well, I think once you start to really look at the issues, in a

:36:17.:36:22.

perhaps a way that not everybody on the hard left has done before, you

:36:23.:36:25.

begin to realise what a difference it would make and the fact that

:36:26.:36:27.

there were very strong rumour that it would make and the fact that

:36:28.:36:33.

unpin some of that social Europe that

:36:34.:36:37.

unpin some of that social Europe underpin it, it destroy it. Unpick

:36:38.:36:38.

It, that underpin it, it destroy it. Unpick

:36:39.:36:43.

to people in our party that, yes, this is actually, with

:36:44.:36:47.

to people in our party that, yes, there is, this

:36:48.:36:49.

to people in our party that, yes, be. And you would vote to stay in,

:36:50.:36:53.

even if Mr Cameron had achieved nothing? Many people don't think he

:36:54.:36:59.

has achieved a lot. But even if he had achieved nothing. Even

:37:00.:37:00.

said after the election - right let's have a referendum now on our

:37:01.:37:05.

existing terms of membership, you would vote to stay? I probably

:37:06.:37:06.

would. Shrimp - not because I'm a would vote to stay? I probably

:37:07.:37:12.

Europe fanatic, but because the alternatives are so undesirable. I

:37:13.:37:16.

don't think there is. There is so much dishonesty. All this talk about

:37:17.:37:21.

how we stop free movement of Labour. There is no country that trades with

:37:22.:37:25.

the European Union that doesn't have to abide by the free movement of

:37:26.:37:29.

Labour. Well there are a lot of countries with free trade

:37:30.:37:31.

arrangements with Europe and they don't have free movement of people

:37:32.:37:34.

arrangements with Europe and they Nothing of the significant players

:37:35.:37:35.

around like Norway Nothing of the significant players

:37:36.:37:38.

with whom we are always compared. Canada? Well, that's rather a

:37:39.:37:41.

with whom we are always compared. separate issue. It is a free trade

:37:42.:37:45.

arrangement They are not in our neck of the woods, so to speak. Also, it

:37:46.:37:48.

leaves out of consideration how, if we vote to come out, how the rest of

:37:49.:37:54.

Europe is going to feel to us? Are they going to feel warm and generous

:37:55.:37:59.

and - yes, OK let's give you a more preferential trading arrangement. I

:38:00.:38:02.

suspect not. Time will tell, depending on how we vote.

:38:03.:38:08.

Now last month Labour published Margaret's long-awaited report

:38:09.:38:10.

into why the party lost last year's General Election.

:38:11.:38:12.

But one Labour pollster who carried out research for the report wasn't

:38:13.:38:15.

Here's what Deborah Mattinson told the Sunday Politics last month.

:38:16.:38:20.

I would say that my conclusions were very different from Margaret

:38:21.:38:28.

Beckett's. I did brief Margaret Beckett so, I was somewhat

:38:29.:38:31.

disappointed not to see some of that reflected back. Yes, I think she

:38:32.:38:38.

picked up on the economy. But there was actually no analysis - it's

:38:39.:38:42.

reduced down effectively to one Bullet point in the report. Quite

:38:43.:38:46.

apologetic. Lots of defensive stuff in there but nothing that actually,

:38:47.:38:51.

really, I felt shone a light on what had gone wrong. I think it was a

:38:52.:38:55.

white wash. I think it was a massive, missed opportunity. So,

:38:56.:38:58.

Deborah Mattinson calls your report a white wash. What is your response?

:38:59.:39:03.

Well I'm sorry I have a lot of respect for Deborah who has done a

:39:04.:39:08.

lot of good work for the Labour Party in her time but I thought it

:39:09.:39:12.

was a rather silly thing to say, to be perfectly frank. By the way, the

:39:13.:39:15.

work she did was not commissioned for our task force, it was

:39:16.:39:19.

commissioned separately for Harriet Harman as something to inform her

:39:20.:39:23.

period of leadership. But, yes, we were briefed about it. What hasn't

:39:24.:39:28.

come out in these conversations is it was actually quite a restricted

:39:29.:39:33.

group of people. Deborah herself acknowledged that when she briefed

:39:34.:39:36.

us. It was a restricted tight group of people she bass talking to. The

:39:37.:39:41.

reason we were briefed about it shall she was talking to. The reason

:39:42.:39:46.

we were briefed was because I asked what information we could have that

:39:47.:39:50.

could come in from the general public, rather than from around the

:39:51.:39:54.

party or professional pollsters. What is there if anything that could

:39:55.:39:58.

tell us where the general public were coming from. All this was was

:39:59.:40:03.

this one, set of ideas, no, it was comments, really, but, from, as I

:40:04.:40:07.

say a Retallick stricted single group. Only -- a really restricted

:40:08.:40:12.

single group. Only because there was no money to do more. You didn't

:40:13.:40:17.

criticise the Labour leader, you called the manifesto an impressive

:40:18.:40:23.

document you blamed the Tories, the SNP, you blamed the media, naturally

:40:24.:40:26.

t didn't seem to be Labour's fault. When you see that, it does seem to

:40:27.:40:31.

be a white wash I don't think that's what the report did say. There are

:40:32.:40:34.

two groups of people who have responded to the report, one is a

:40:35.:40:38.

group that approached it with a relatively open mind and another is

:40:39.:40:42.

a group that approached it in their own various ways with axes ready to

:40:43.:40:46.

grind. I didn't ignore the fact of some of the things that the

:40:47.:40:49.

Conservatives had done, some of the ways they had played T I didn't

:40:50.:40:53.

ignore some of the other players, I touched on the issue of the media. I

:40:54.:40:57.

could have written a back about that, I didn't, I touched on T I did

:40:58.:41:03.

not excuse - I said, "We failed." Our job was to try to create trust

:41:04.:41:07.

in our economic policy, in our approach on immigration, in our

:41:08.:41:10.

approach on welfare and we failed. Did you speak to Ed Miliband for the

:41:11.:41:16.

report? Yes. Did you tone it down a bit as a result? You were very kind

:41:17.:41:22.

to him. I know a lot of people will disagree. You may be one of them.

:41:23.:41:26.

But what I said about Ed Miliband's leadership is what I believe and had

:41:27.:41:29.

believed all the way through. I didn't tone it down out of kindness.

:41:30.:41:34.

I thought Ed did a much better job than he was given credit for. If I

:41:35.:41:39.

can say to you, one of the things that I think people who are critical

:41:40.:41:44.

are overlooking, who the report was for and what it had to take into

:41:45.:41:47.

account. There is a sense in which we all know why we lost the

:41:48.:41:51.

election, everybody knows that, because of the issues we didn't get

:41:52.:41:55.

trust on but one of the things that certainly people in the Labour Party

:41:56.:41:59.

wanted to know is - but why did we do well in some parts of the country

:42:00.:42:03.

and not in others? What happened with the opinion polls? Why did they

:42:04.:42:06.

mislead us? People wanted the answers to those questions as well

:42:07.:42:09.

and that's what we tried to do. Well you cite reasons to be positive

:42:10.:42:12.

about Labour now, including Jeremy Corbyn, as one of the reasons to be

:42:13.:42:17.

positive. So, do you no longer regard yourself as a moron, your

:42:18.:42:21.

words, not mine, for nominating Mr Jeremy Corbyn? It wasn't my word it

:42:22.:42:27.

was John - I have forgotten his name, somebody who worked in number

:42:28.:42:34.

ten, he said it, I referred to it, in a radio interview, he said t and

:42:35.:42:40.

I said I'm one of them. I'm not resiling from that. Are you, or are

:42:41.:42:44.

you not? I didn't intend, Jeremy, to have a serious chance of being the

:42:45.:42:49.

leader when I nominated him. I have been quite open about that, there is

:42:50.:42:54.

no point in pretending. He has been elected overwhelmingly. My hope, if

:42:55.:42:57.

you like, prayer, is that you can do the same miracle with the public as

:42:58.:43:01.

he managed to do with members of the Labour Party. Do you think that will

:43:02.:43:07.

require a miracle? Neither you or eye could have predicted it. No, not

:43:08.:43:11.

at all. Not even Mr Jeremy Corbyn could have predicted it.

:43:12.:43:16.

Let's return to our main story - the EU referendum.

:43:17.:43:18.

We will be hearing a lot about it between now and when we think the

:43:19.:43:25.

referendum will be, the end of June, possibly.

:43:26.:43:27.

David Cameron admitted yesterday that the draft deal on the UK's

:43:28.:43:29.

membership of the EU is "not perfect".

:43:30.:43:30.

But he added that Britain's position would be stronger and better

:43:31.:43:33.

Not so, say his critics, who argue that Britain will be

:43:34.:43:37.

Among them is Conservative MP, David Davis, who has been giving

:43:38.:43:41.

The thin gruel has been further watered down,

:43:42.:43:46.

My right honourable friend has a fortnight, I think,

:43:47.:43:50.

in which to salvage his reputation as a negotiator.

:43:51.:43:56.

This is a process and he might not get what he wants.

:43:57.:43:58.

Now I understand he won't able to come to Manchester

:43:59.:44:02.

because he is still in the negotiations,

:44:03.:44:05.

but could he come on February 19th to our Go conference then,

:44:06.:44:09.

if he doesn't get what he wants and would it be possible for me

:44:10.:44:12.

to drop off at tie at Downing Street for him?

:44:13.:44:17.

My honourable friend is always very generous with his time,

:44:18.:44:21.

with his advice and now also with his clothing.

:44:22.:44:24.

I feel the blazer is soon to follow...

:44:25.:44:30.

I won't be able to come, I don't think on February 19th.

:44:31.:44:33.

I hope I will still be in the thick of negotiations but I of course

:44:34.:44:37.

will report back to this House and give the results.

:44:38.:44:43.

That was the Prime Minister. Let's speak it David Davis who joins us

:44:44.:44:49.

now. So summarise for us what would

:44:50.:44:53.

Britain's position be outside the EU? Well, it looks, I spent this

:44:54.:45:01.

morning giving a great - long lecture on the current benefits and

:45:02.:45:04.

what we could get outside. We would be better off in terms of global

:45:05.:45:09.

trade. We can do greater trade deals than the European Union does on our

:45:10.:45:13.

bha. We would not lose anything in temples our access to the European

:45:14.:45:16.

markets. Apart from anything else, the German car industry alone would

:45:17.:45:23.

have a $16 billion market put at risk and Merkel, politicians would

:45:24.:45:33.

not allow that. There is a very not easy but straightforward

:45:34.:45:35.

negotiation. You think we would get the advantages and pay no price for

:45:36.:45:40.

that access? The only area where it won't work is on agriculture where

:45:41.:45:43.

we would have to have some particular deal and subsidise

:45:44.:45:46.

British farming in a free market position. Other than that, it is

:45:47.:45:50.

pretty straight - it is pretty clear that the end game would be a free

:45:51.:45:54.

market arrangement. Just as they have just struck with Canada. They

:45:55.:45:58.

have just - Canada is a famously free market, world market. I used to

:45:59.:46:02.

work in Canada, you buy sugar in Canada, it is world market sugar,

:46:03.:46:06.

everything is world market. They have struck it with Canada. If they

:46:07.:46:10.

When you talk about the single anybody.

:46:11.:46:17.

When you talk about the single market you are talking about

:46:18.:46:19.

manufactured products and not services. 70% of our GDP is

:46:20.:46:27.

services. It does not follow that is Europe widens and deepens the single

:46:28.:46:31.

market that our services would get the same access as if we were

:46:32.:46:40.

inside. That is right if we ... There is not really a single market

:46:41.:46:44.

in services now. When the EU does free trade agreements with the rest

:46:45.:46:49.

of the world, 20 odd agreements, in only six of them were services

:46:50.:46:56.

mentioned. If we did our own they would the mentioned every time,

:46:57.:47:01.

banking will be left out completely because of the sensitivities in

:47:02.:47:07.

Europe. If we did a TTIP ourselves it would be in. There are balances

:47:08.:47:13.

and they look squarely in favour... So we would not have too continue

:47:14.:47:16.

with the free movement of people in the single market? We are talking

:47:17.:47:28.

after a Brexit referendum. Several million votes will be about

:47:29.:47:31.

migration so no government could offer anything on free movement,

:47:32.:47:35.

they would need absolute governmental control of borders. The

:47:36.:47:40.

Europeans understand that and at the end of the day European

:47:41.:47:43.

negotiations, I have been there and done it, are about national

:47:44.:47:47.

interest. No national government, Angela Merkel, they are not going to

:47:48.:47:53.

give up the interests of their major industries to promote the European

:47:54.:47:58.

ideal. That may be logical. It's also political. What about the point

:47:59.:48:03.

Margaret Beckett was making earlier? Europe could be so angry as a result

:48:04.:48:07.

of us leaving that they may not be inclined to be as generous with the

:48:08.:48:12.

single market as you think. There could be an element of Britain

:48:13.:48:24.

leaving and not suffering, getting the benefits without having to sit

:48:25.:48:26.

in the European the benefits without having to sit

:48:27.:48:29.

the European Council, others may follow. So they will be tougher on

:48:30.:48:33.

us. That bit is certainly follow. So they will be tougher on

:48:34.:48:36.

judging from history follow. So they will be tougher on

:48:37.:48:37.

happens is that if we have there will be three months of

:48:38.:48:41.

screaming and shouting and there will be three months of

:48:42.:48:47.

and then they calmed down. The day after Brexit happens the Chief

:48:48.:48:51.

Executive 's dogs barking, BMW, Audi and Mercedes -- of Volkswagen. They

:48:52.:49:02.

would be queueing up saying that we have do have access for the 16

:49:03.:49:08.

billion market. What do you say to that? It is pie in the sky, frankly.

:49:09.:49:13.

I know David was the Europe minister at one time but I have had a bit of

:49:14.:49:18.

experience myself over something like ten or 11 years of intense

:49:19.:49:24.

negotiation on agriculture and climate change. I just think, if I

:49:25.:49:32.

can say so with some modesty I pride myself on my negotiation track

:49:33.:49:40.

record. The risks are huge and the certainties are non-. What's

:49:41.:49:46.

interesting in the last decade, people always say this will give us

:49:47.:49:52.

huge leveraged. If you look at the way we are treated, we lose twice as

:49:53.:49:57.

many votes as anyone in Europe. Just now, David Cameron has asked for a

:49:58.:50:01.

really trivial set of demands and haven't even been given them. If you

:50:02.:50:06.

look at something really important like the free trade agreements that

:50:07.:50:09.

Europe strikes with other countries and areas of the world, we lose out

:50:10.:50:14.

in two thirds of them and that is how much influence we have in Europe

:50:15.:50:20.

now. We do better. If you want to go down this road you need someone

:50:21.:50:23.

strong to sell the message and it looks as though it won't be Theresa

:50:24.:50:28.

May leading believing campaign? That is up to Teresa. I have no idea.

:50:29.:50:37.

Boris Johnson? You would need to get Boris to answer that question. But

:50:38.:50:41.

you speak to these people all the time. To be honest I don't think it

:50:42.:50:46.

matters that much, beyond the M25 what matters is this, what will this

:50:47.:50:50.

do for the 3 million jobs that get thrown around, my job, my welfare,

:50:51.:50:59.

my interest, and they will make that decision not on whether a blonde

:51:00.:51:09.

bombshell makes it. It's not for me. I tried. You did.

:51:10.:51:13.

Now we know that tossers are commonplace in politics,

:51:14.:51:16.

but did you know that tossing is, in fact, a vital part

:51:17.:51:18.

Yes, in Iowa earlier this week, some of the Democratic caucuses

:51:19.:51:23.

literally came down to the toss of a coin.

:51:24.:51:28.

But coin tosses have been used plenty of times in democratic

:51:29.:51:31.

elections, as have other random selection methods.

:51:32.:51:32.

In sport it is used at the start of a match and in politics it is used

:51:33.:51:44.

to end one. Coin tosses are a rare sight and only used in the event of

:51:45.:51:47.

a tie and when there are rounding errors. Monday's Iowa Democratic

:51:48.:51:54.

caucus was one of the history books as Hillary Clinton tied with her

:51:55.:51:58.

rival Bernie Sanders in six precincts so it was down to look to

:51:59.:52:03.

decide and Clinton won them all, one 64 chance. It's not the only time

:52:04.:52:10.

that the random factor has been harnessed for democracy, the mayor

:52:11.:52:14.

of a town in Peru was decided when the top two candidates tied at 236

:52:15.:52:22.

votes each, not a huge turnout. It's not always coin tossing, cutting

:52:23.:52:25.

cards and drawing lots. The legal position is that the winning coin

:52:26.:52:32.

toss is considered a vote. As it was with the Bari council elections in

:52:33.:52:38.

2011. After three and recounts it was a dead heat in Ramsbottom. They

:52:39.:52:45.

are obliged to produce a result and they were clutching at straws. It

:52:46.:52:49.

has never happened yet at a UK general election but if it does one

:52:50.:52:54.

imagines that the loss of a toss might make the defeated candidate

:52:55.:52:55.

flipping annoyed. Well joining me now from Norwich

:52:56.:52:59.

is Lana Hempsell, a Conservative councillor who actually won

:53:00.:53:02.

an election on the toss of a coin, and Rene Linstaedt, an expert

:53:03.:53:05.

on American politics Welcome. In Iowa it was necessary in

:53:06.:53:13.

some of the caucuses to flip a coin because it was a dead heat for

:53:14.:53:16.

Sanders and Clinton? Part of the problem was that in some of these

:53:17.:53:22.

caucus sites, individuals that had registered had actually left prior

:53:23.:53:27.

to being counted, and the overall number of registered caucusgoers was

:53:28.:53:32.

higher than individuals left, so not all of the delegates could be

:53:33.:53:38.

assigned to the candidates. Do we know how many ended up tossing a

:53:39.:53:43.

coin? I don't know exactly what the number is, but it happened a number

:53:44.:53:51.

of times. It's not surprising because there are such a small

:53:52.:53:54.

number of individuals involved that you would either have a situation

:53:55.:53:59.

where there is a tie or because it is so unorganised, the whole

:54:00.:54:03.

process, people would just leave. Did they have a recount? Well, yes.

:54:04.:54:11.

That is what we would do. They counted the number of individuals,

:54:12.:54:17.

and some in one of the district 's people had gone so there was nothing

:54:18.:54:23.

they could do. You won your council seat on the toss of a coin, how many

:54:24.:54:29.

recounts were there before it was decided to resolve it? We had three

:54:30.:54:33.

recounts in total so it was close on the first one and then we get three

:54:34.:54:39.

more and it was a dead heat. I see. A coin was tossed. Did you choose

:54:40.:54:46.

heads or tails? I chose heads and it was a split-second decision because

:54:47.:54:52.

the coin was already flying before I was asking if anyone got to choose

:54:53.:54:59.

and as it was landing I shouted out heads because my agent nudged me. Do

:55:00.:55:05.

you still have the coin, it must be your lucky coin? No, this was

:55:06.:55:10.

Broadlands, the coin went back into the pocket of the returning officer.

:55:11.:55:17.

He spent it on a diet Coke later on. How did your opponent feel? Did they

:55:18.:55:22.

feel cheated? Did they think in the end it was a fair way of resolving

:55:23.:55:29.

the matter? He wasn't there at the count so I have no idea why he

:55:30.:55:33.

didn't turn up, but I was there to bask in the glory all by myself. I

:55:34.:55:38.

did see him later and he did not think it was fair. And there were

:55:39.:55:42.

questions about double sided coins etc. You could have said heads I

:55:43.:55:49.

win, tails you lose and he would not object as he was not there! The New

:55:50.:55:56.

Hampshire primary, not a caucus, if it is closed their there will be

:55:57.:56:00.

recounts an recounts rather than tossing a coin. -- if it is close

:56:01.:56:07.

there. Sometimes delegates are proportionally split so you do not

:56:08.:56:13.

need to toss a coin? 49.6 versus 49.4. That is true. It can happen in

:56:14.:56:19.

smaller states where you have ties and it certainly happens all the

:56:20.:56:22.

time in smaller elections for City councils. Because you were asking

:56:23.:56:31.

earlier about elections, Federal elections in the US or national

:56:32.:56:34.

elections here, it actually hasn't happened. Who will win New Hampshire

:56:35.:56:43.

for the Democrats? It will be close. I know that. I'm not in the business

:56:44.:56:48.

of making predictions. CHUCKLES Thank you both.

:56:49.:56:50.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:56:51.:56:53.

The question was what narrowly missed hitting Margaret

:56:54.:56:55.

report into why Labour lost the election?

:56:56.:57:05.

Maybe Deborah Mattinson through it! I'm just joking.

:57:06.:57:08.

So Margaret, what's the correct answer?

:57:09.:57:14.

It was a mobile phone dropped from the press gallery. By accident?

:57:15.:57:20.

Presumably. And we're joined now

:57:21.:57:22.

by the fellow who nearly The political editor of the Sun,

:57:23.:57:24.

Tom Newton Dunn is on the phone now. Can we just clear this up, it was

:57:25.:57:36.

entirely an accident? I can confirm it was not an assassination attempt.

:57:37.:57:41.

It was entirely an accident. Margaret, let me say that I'm

:57:42.:57:45.

incredibly sorry and I was utterly mortified that I almost hit you on

:57:46.:57:49.

the head. Thank you very much for taking it in the right way. To be

:57:50.:57:55.

fair it was a bipartisan attack because Cheryl Gillan was next to

:57:56.:58:01.

me. It could have gone either way. We agreed that former Cabinet

:58:02.:58:04.

ministers who are women are not popular! Did the phones survive? It

:58:05.:58:13.

fell 20 feet and it did. I won't say what type of phone it is on the BBC

:58:14.:58:21.

but it is still intact. Cheryl Gillan tweeted me to say that if I

:58:22.:58:29.

had been four inches to the left I would have killed two birds with one

:58:30.:58:33.

stone. I think we will say goodbye there. Thank you very much. Thank

:58:34.:58:37.

you to my guests especially Margaret Beckett. I will be back at 11:45pm

:58:38.:58:49.

on BBC One for this week when we will have Michael Portillo and Alan

:58:50.:58:52.

Johnson and we may talk about Europe, who knows? I will be back

:58:53.:58:58.

also here tomorrow on BBC Two with the Daily Politics

:58:59.:58:59.

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