11/02/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

The latest walk-out by junior doctors in England is over,

but the row with ministers could be about to intensify.

Doctors' leaders have rejected a final "take it or leave it" offer

in their bitter dispute over contracts.

In the next hour, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt is expected

to announce he'll take the nuclear option

and impose the new contract anyway.

joins us to explain why leaving the EU would be bad for Britain

and could be a boost for Russia's Putin.

As a new report says more than a tenth of Syria's population

has been killed or injured, with many more displaced,

are the world powers hopelessly divided over what to do next?

And forget the latest Hollywood blockbuster.

We'll be talking to the documentary maker who wants

to bring the case for leaving the EU to the big screen.

Yes, all that in the next hour of blockbuster political discussion.

And with us throughout, journalist David Aaronovitch.

He keeps busy writing and broadcasting about everything

from conspiracy theories to subliminal messaging.

In fact, he's giving out a subliminal message right now,

that you should watch to the end of the show.

Do you like the new tie sense to me by the Fife police pipe band?

And not many people can claim that! Or say it! Thank you for sending it!

First today, beleagured, under fire, you can choose your cliche,

but they're being applied to the Met Police chief,

Bernard Hogan-Howe, after criticism of the force's handling

of sexual-abuse allegations against public figures,

including former Home Secretary Leon Brittan

and former D-Day veteran Lord Bramall.

Both men were investigated but never charged.

Hogan-Howe said the default position of believing the accuser,

a policy adopted in 2014, should be changed.

From now on, police will now test the accuracy

of the allegations and evidence with an open mind.

I think we've really got hung up on this word, "belief".

It's confused officers, and my point would be that of course

we've got to be empathetic, we want people to believe

We want to be open-minded what they tell us, and then

what the suspects tell us, and then we've got to test all that

evidence, and I think there's a grave danger at the moment

that the advice that's around, perhaps there's a tendency to think

we will always believe any complaint made, and that's not wise

That was Bernard Hogan-Howe, and this morning we learned

that the Home Secretary has extended his contract

as head of the Met by one year, it expires in September,

and not the two years Hogan-Howe has asked for in public.

These in a tight spot, isn't he? He is in a tight spot, but actually he

is just cannot one element in what has become, if you like, a kind of

problem that we have, which is that we ignored the problem of child

abuse for long time, then when we get wise to it and so on, we

overreact the other way, and we demand that the police will take

seriously every single possible and conceivable complaint that is made,

which means that they are failing sometimes to distinguish between

true complaints by people who have taken a long time to come forward,

and fantasists. What has happened is that the Met, in the case of

operation Midland, have been taken in by a series of fantasists. There

is one where we cannot give his proper name, he goes by the name of

Nick, he seems to be behind many of the high-profile claims of a VIP

reader file ring based in Westminster. This is why Operation

Midland was launched. No one has been charged under this and when you

speak to the police privately, they are increasingly worried that they

have been led by the nose by a fantasist.

They cannot even find the evidence of any of the three murders that

this chap claims, they cannot find the evidence for it. They have

leaked out, at various times to various journalists and

organisations, what they are doing and so on, they have been in good

with one or two organisations, effectively making money out of

running these claims and selling them to the press. They have acted

as a kind of ginger group on the police to make them take them

seriously, so that they are actively generate news stories about VIP

abuse. Parts of the press have been effectively complicit in this, I

regret to say, and the consequences going to be very damaging long-term

for those people who are genuine survivors of abuse, who will be

making claims now. Utterly predictable. Good to have you with

the us today. Liam Fox and the Brexiteers, that's

those who want a British exit, or Brexit from the EU,

have coined a name for their rivals who want Britain to vote

to remain a member. The question for today is

what is the name? Is it stayvians, persistonians,

non-leavians or remainians? At the end of the show, David

will give us the correct answer. And we are hanging on it, cannot

wait! In the 1975 referendum on Britain's

membership of the Common Market, Hilary Benn was, like most

on the left, opposed to staying in. He even worked as a researcher

for the no campaign. Well, today he's Shadow Foreign

Secretary and with a referendum on our membership of

the European Union on the way, he's been making a different case

for Britain to stay in. Those who are campaigning

for Britain to leave, in my view, profoundly misunderstand

what will best serve There is nothing patriotic about

diminishing the United Kingdom's ability to make its voice

heard by other nations. Narrow nationalism

is not the same as patriotism, and stumbling out of Europe

and pulling up the drawbridge will only serve to harm our position

and influence in the world. You made a powerful case for Britain

remaining in Europe, and the You made a powerful case for Britain

backed that position, but is the Labour leader as passionate and

advocate to remain in the EU as you are? Well, Jeremy has made it clear

that he backs Britain remaining in the European Union, and this has

been the settled view of the Labour Party and the trade union movement

for a number of years now. Today I referred to the famous occasion when

Jack Delors came to the TUC in 1988, and he said, can I lay before you a

vision of Europe, paid holiday, protection for temporary workers,

and fairness in working time, that is a result of our membership of the

European Union. Labour has been on a journey, and for those of us who

remember what it is like, it is the same in their image, the

Conservative Party is divided, David Cameron has decided to draw on

Wilson's approach, because he cannot manage the politics of his own party

- we are united. You say that Jeremy Corbyn backs remaining in the EU,

but I asked, is he as passionate? He hailed the Labour manifesto which

called for Britain to leave the EEC, and last week he was railing against

the transatlantic trade deal which is being pushed through by European

institutions. He does not sound passionate about it. I have

discussed with him, and he believes it is the right thing to do, to stay

in, on TTIP, he believes there are still things to sort out. We have to

make sure it is the right kind of trade deal, but I am clear that

trade deals, because they open minds as well as markets, are good for the

world, and we currently have really good trade deals because we are part

of the European Union, and those campaigning for Brexit cannot

actually tell us whether we would be able to replicate those on the same

basis if we were to leave, and I think it would be a great step into

the unknown, so does Jeremy, and that is why he is backing us staying

in. Instinctively, there are supporters of Jeremy Corbyn armour

and I will put it no stronger than that, say instinct of Lee Healey is

an out there, he has said that he wants to see a Europe that does not

sign away public services through the TTIP deal. -- instinctively. He

says it is being agreed by European institution that was not

democratically elected. Is he going to join you and a gold your words on

platforms in the future? -- and echo your words. I am sure you will

invite him on. That is not the same thing, will he be standing on the

same platform as you? The European family has given us great benefits

in terms of jobs, investment and growth, it strengthens our boys in

the world, that is the point I was making, but on the specifics of

TTIP, people will have different views, and in the end the European

Parliament, if it turns out to be a mixed competence agreement, the

European Parliament will have to agree the final deal in some way,

but that is not an argument for us not remaining, because so much

depends on our continued membership. That sounds like a conversation you

need to have with Jeremy Corbyn. Are there any dates for him to stand

with you in the campaign? You will have to look at his diary, I do not

know what his future diary looks like, but he is absolutely clear,

and he has said it in the speech to the Fabians recently, he is clear,

as are all of us, why it is in the interests of the British people,

that is the point, that we remain. You say the trade union movement is

supportive of your stance, but actually they also have not exactly

been coming forward with their support - what is Unison going to

do? Well, ultimately, that is a decision for them to take. But you

said you had the support of the unions, and I put it to you that

unions like Unison, the second-biggest, and clear with its

connections to Labour, has not made up its mind. That is why I have said

they will make their views known, but the point I was making today,

the attitude of the trade union movement has changed. I worked for

22 years for a trade union, I saw how our members found they were

working in companies that were owned by other firms in Europe and other

parts of the world, and that meant they had to build relationships with

their colleagues. They saw what it is that it did to trade union

rights, and if you go and talk to workers to Nestle all Toyota, if you

talk to the workers at Airbus, people in universities, all of them

will tell you why being part of the European Union is important for

their jobs and for the future of the British economy, and I am confident

that, as the referendum unfolds, we will see that voice expressed. One

of the legitimate concerns they had was, was David Cameron going to use

the negotiation to undermine workers rights? We saw him off as a result

of the stance we dug. David, are the unions fully signed up to this?

Unison said that they have not decided, there is a mixed view. How

disappointing would it be for Hilary Benn and those who want to remain in

the EU if big unions either say, we are not going to have a view, oh go

further and say, we should have Brexit? I think it is likely the

unions will sign up on remaining in the EU, for a number of reasons that

Hilary Benn has touched on, but they have to go through the process of

suggesting that they have had some discussion about it, rather than it

is a done deal. As for Jeremy Corbyn, the problem with him is,

because he has not changed since 1975, when all of us voted against

the Common Market, because he has not been on that journey... I voted

against it in 1975, it was a capitalist club aimed at the heart

of the Soviet Union, so it was a bad idea! Things have moved on, I

certainly have since then. Hilary is smiling! Jeremy Corbyn has probably

not thought much about the European Union for 30 years, it is not one of

the things that I think he is very interested in or has been interested

in, so it is not at all unlikely that he will allow themselves to be

instructed on this. Can we do a very sharp gear into Syria? There was a

line in your speech about the Russians killing Syrian civilians,

you said it has to stop, how are you going to stop it? Well, by getting a

ceasefire. Now, the Russians have made a proposal, and a ceasefire

cannot come quickly enough, but you have seen the growing chorus of

condemnation of the Russian bombing. And the Russian ambassador

dismissing it. Human Rights Watch have said that cluster munitions

have been used by the Russians, and their denials would have more force

if they had signed up to the convention banning the use of

cluster munitions. But look, the Syrian people have suffered enough,

more than 250,000 have lost their lives, the conflict has to be

brought to an end because it is the only way we will bring peace. Why

would the Russians stop, though? In the end there will have to be a

peace agreement. Our responsibility is to put pressure on the Russians

to do the right thing and stop the fire that they appear to have chosen

a day for the cease-fire to come into force. If you come into force

now and then the aid and go into towns that are under siege, the

killings can end, and negotiations can begin about what a new Syria

will look like. Air strikes against Islamic State in Syria, they have a

foothold, if it looks like they were getting to the stage where they are

launching attacks on Europe, should you be raising the idea of air

strikes against IS in Libya? The first that needs to happen in Libya

is a government needs to be formed because there isn't one at the

moment. There has been an agreement but it has not stuck to stop the

British government has said, there is no question of boots on the

ground. IS represent a threat in Libya as they do across the Middle

East, but the first step is the formation of a government and then

the international government can see the assistance that has been asked

for. Thank you. Now, let's turn to events

in the Middle East, and Syria in particular,

where the five-year-old conflict According to a report

from the Syrian Centre for Policy Research published today,

the war has accounted In all, 11.5% of the population

have been killed or injured, while millions have fled the country

or been internally displaced. Well, UN peace talks have stalled,

thanks at least in part to a Syrian government advance aided

by Russian Air strikes Let's get some more

detail from JoCo. Recent Russian airstrikes in support

of President Assad's government have seen thousands of people

fleeing the city of Aleppo Last week, the UN suspended

peace talks in Geneva, with the opposition saying

they wouldn't talk to the government while the heavy

bombardment continued. Meanwhile, some 30,000 Syrians have

fled north to the Turkish border, prompting fears of another

major exodus towards Europe. Turkey says it has so far

let in 10,000 refugees, and that others will be admitted

"in a controlled fashion". RAF planes continue to bomb

Islamic State positions Later this afternoon,

a counter-Islamic State coalition, led by the US, is expected

to announce an increase in the tempo of bombing raids

in Iraq and Syria. They are also likely to discuss

the threat posed by IS in Libya, as the UN says the war-torn country

has become a new base for the group. Well, defence ministers

from the Nato alliance have been They've been talking

about the threat from Russia and the migrant crisis

among other things. And later today they'll be joined

by non-Nato partners from the countries fighting

against Islamic State to discuss a US plan to accelerate

the campaign. Our defence correspondent

Jonathan Beale is in Brussels, Jonathan, we understand there is a

Nato Maritime deployment to go to the Aegean Sea, what does that mean

and what is it that this? -- is its purpose? Turkey and Greece are

members of Nato, they have this crisis on their border where people

want to cross into Europe, they have asked Nato to do something about it

and this is what they came up with. They have a Maritime group in the

Mediterranean, they will send it to the Aegean, but there were only

three ships in the group. The head of Nato says there may be more ships

joining them, but they are essentially there to gather

intelligence, to find out who the people smugglers are, where the

coastguard from Turkey and Greece should go to. To be honest, this is

a sticking plaster to a problem that won't go away. What will they do

with the intelligence as they gather it? We're not going to intercept

boats coming across, or launch raids on the people smugglers, they are

going to gather intelligence, what will they do with it? One assumes

they will gather information. For example, they will have

sophisticated radar where they can spot where boats are leaving from

and then tell the Greek or Turkish coastguard where they are going. In

simple terms, the Turkish authorities are probably the best

people to work out who the people smugglers are, and to arrest them

and detain them. Remember there was talk about doing this in Libya. At

least Turkey has a functioning government, Libya does not. There

has been no targeting of people smugglers in Libya and that is

because there is no functioning government, there is chaos. The

anti-Islamic state coalition which is meeting this afternoon where you

are, what is that going to decide? What is on the agenda? Is there talk

of extending attacks on IS? The focus will mostly be on what is

going on in Iraq and Syria before they turn attention to what is going

on in Libya, but is a coalition which is meant to be more than 40

nations, and is to be honest, about a dozen are doing something

militarily. For example, carrying out air strikes. What the US Defence

Secretary once is particularly regional allies to do more. We have

the Prince from Saudi Arabia and the expectation is that he will offer

forces to do something, we don't know how many. Clearly the Saudis

will want to do something with the US. The US are not going to put

boots on the ground in Syria in significant numbers but they have

special forces. There is the possibility of them doing some ring

but this is still a strategy of containment, not a strategy of

victory because they need to build up security forces in Iraq first and

then turn attention to Syria. If you look at what happens in Iraq, there

is still a lot of bombing raids being done by the US led coalition,

by British warplanes, even though that city is meant to have been

taken, the risk a lot of fighting going on there.

We're joined now by Dr Karin von Hippel, director

of the Royal United Services Institute, and the MP Crispin Blunt,

he's chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee.

Welcome. Let's start with the Russians. With the forces of us are,

the Hezbollah, even Iranian generals on the ground. Is the strategy to

take back most of them off the area around Aleppo and then they create

an anglaise which has most of the Turkish border and Mediterranean

coast? -- Assad. The Russians are going for a scorched earth policy

similar to what we saw in charge in. The plan is to encircle Aleppo but

the problem is the Syrian regime is too weak to hold Aleppo and it will

create a power vacuum on the ground which will inevitably be filled by

the worst elements, we have seen that before stop the Iranian

Revolutionary guard might not be too weak to hold it, they are there in

substantial numbers, they lost a general this week. Hezbollah is

there as well. We are even getting reports that the Iraqis and Afghans

are fighting there. They are fighting with the militia but they

will not be able to govern Syria long term, it has to be governed by

Syrians. You're not going to have the Russians governing in Aleppo,

the Syrians need to govern it and they can't because they are still

weak. There will be a wedge along the western coast, and that may be

there for some time to come. If they succeed in seriously undermining the

non-Islamic state rebels, the ones in Aleppo, east of Aleppo, if they

seriously undermine them, doesn't President Putin then said, here is

your choice in Syria, it is me and Assad, or Islamic State, make your

mind up. That is also Troyes. The only reason we have Isil in Syria is

because of Assad. What he did over this power vacuum which Isil has

built up. They did not attack Isil until six or seven months ago, you

had never attacked them in a meaningful way. Assad and Isil have

been going after the moderate opposition. He has a problem as well

as Carol was saying. If there is no settlement there, the Russians and

Iranians have to be committed for the long term to provide the active

support to hold the Assad regime in place, and frankly, that is

indefinite until they get some kind of settlement, so we have lots to

convince the Russians of the need urgently for a settlement, for two

reasons. Firstly, to stop the bloodshed and to address the

migration crisis that flows from that. Critically, Islamic State is a

caliphate, administering territory in Syria and Iraq has to be brought

to an end in everybody's interests, including the Russians, as soon as

reasonably practicable. What would happen if if we are presented with

this choice? That cannot happen. Let me remind you that the attack on

Aleppo began the day the peace talks were due to begin in Geneva, which

meant the talks never got off the ground. Why should Russia returned

to the peace table until it is one? Because it is winning. It and it is

winning but they might be able to take Aleppo with enormous investment

of Russian air and Hezbollah and Iranians paramilitary forces as you

described but the idea that the opposition have completely fallen

over and it will return to normal in the non-ice is part of Syria will

not happen. There is indefinite continuing conflict until there is

some kind of settlement, and until there is a settlement, there is no

serious prospect of being able to defeat Isil in Syria, and to be take

the territory and destroyed the caliphate where they are

administering territory. -- retake. They are attracting foreign fighters

to go there and fight for them. No one is saying there will be a return

to normality for the foreseeable future. What we could easily see

around Aleppo is Syria's largest city, it was its financial capital,

is a scorched earth policy, that is what the Russians know how to do,

and you say they are not going to fall over. The 40,000 refugees who

headed to the Turkish border think something dangerous is going on

there. You have to remember a large number of Syrians who have migrated

have migrated from regime controlled territories and have given up after

four years on Syria. The migration out of Syria is coming from

everywhere. What is essential for the United Kingdom, led by the

United States, it is to bang heads together of both the Russians, the

Turks, the Saudis and the Iranians, and say that our collective interest

as an international community is fixing this, and if we go on

supporting our clients in the region, rather than, as we all

agreed to on the 15th of November in Vienna, actually exercise leverage

to bring them to the table in order to bring a supplement, we asked

biting our noses to blast our face. I get the point that am I missing

something? I see no reason why President Putin will come to the

table. There is an American term that begins with the term cluster

and carries on. This is a sequence of hugely missed opportunities. The

only reason you can bang the Russians' heads together is if you

have a presence in the area which they pre-empted themselves. We went

in and they are in the vacuum, we are not in the vacuum. Actually, a

troupe presence could take ices out of ragga and some of the central

areas. -- Isis. The Russians have no interest in stopping the refugee

crisis. They don't like Europe or the EU and the fact that it weakens

us is no great problem to them at all. Their big problem, and both

your contributors must be right, it is that we don't see any long kind

of future for the kind of settlement that Russia believes it wants to

see. How long it takes before they discover that, how many people have

moved from Syria before they discover it, it is a guess. Russia

has two strategic plans. They are strategically linked. One is to have

a solid presence in Syria, there it already has a port and a strong land

presents as well. Secondly, it is to do what it can to undermine the EU,

particularly the eastern part of the European Union which he wants to

uncouple, and the flow of hundreds of thousands of refugees out of

northern Syria will do that. Thirdly, to poke their fingers in

the eyes of the Americans. They are flexing their muscles. If they stray

too far in one direction, would the US shoot down a Russian plane? I

suspect what we may seek are some helicopter gunships shot down by

weapons supplied by some neighbouring countries were getting

upset. Jonathan Beale was telling us the

Saudis may offer some ground troops, is that really realistic, when they

are already enmeshed in a civil war in Yemen, taking substantial

casualties and finding life rather difficult and there? Do we really

expect them to deploy land troops to Syria as well? That conversation was

happening on the back of a political process that looked like it was

making decent progress before Christmas. And what the local Sunni

powers are going to need, what ideally they would be doing in the

wake of a transition, is supporting the Syrian Arab army and the Syrian

free army turning their guns on Isil and giving them the military

capability on the ground for it to be an essentially Sunni force,

wherever it is drawn from, that helps the local Syrian forces

recapture their country from Isis. That is where the promise of Saudi

troops and Emma Roddy troops and Turkish troops... Is it realistic?

It is going to be necessary, you have pointed out how difficult

political transition is, but we have to make all our efforts to get that

transition and be thinking about what happens after that. The

conference last week was about that, but this will only end, they will

need help from the local Sunni powers to do it. We shall see, thank

you very much. And we welcome viewers in Scotland who were

watching First Minister's Questions. So when I mentioned that I got this

tie, I had no Scottish viewers?! I just wanted to point out this is the

Fife police pipe band tie. You might have a Scottish viewers,

you mean viewers in Scotland! Is that still a test to find out

whether you are sober?! Thank you, Fife Police!

The 24-hour strike by junior doctors in England over government plans

to change their contract ended this morning, but far from moving

to an agreement, both sides seem to be growing further apart.

The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

has rejected a final "take it or leave" it government offer,

which included a concession on Saturday pay.

has said he will impose the new contract.

advising that a negotiated solution is not realistically possible.

Along with other senior NHS leaders, and supported by NHS Employers,

NHS England, NHS Improvement, the NHS Confederation,

and NHS Providers, he has asked me to end the uncertainty

for the service by proceeding with the introduction

of a new contract that he and his colleagues consider

both safer for patients and fair and reasonable for junior doctors.

I have therefore today decided to do that.

Yes, that was the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, House of Commons

earlier, and we are joined by Chris Mason, many will feel this is the

nuclear option. Absolutely, he said, take it or leave it, he is imposing

this contract. He is still taking questions in the Commons right now,

but here are the details he set out on this final deal. Not really a

deal, is it? It is what the doctors are going to get. He says there will

be an increase in the basic salary of 13.5%, higher than the figure

floating around yesterday, three quarters of doctors will see their

pay rise. Under the new contract, the maximum number of hours they

will be made to work in any week will be reduced from 91 to 72, and

the number of consecutive night shifts reduced from seven to four.

Crucially, the ordinary time hours on a Saturday, working on a Saturday

but being paid the same rate as for Thursday afternoon, for instance,

will extend from seven in the morning until five in the evening.

It is the Saturday working which has been a sticking point for doctors,

something they are not keen on at all. So are we looking forward to

rolling strikes by junior doctors? That seems pretty possible, there

has not yet been any response from the BMA, but I think it is fair to

say we can hazard a guess they will be less than gruntled by what they

have heard. Strong language from Heidi Alexander, the Shadow Health

Secretary, saying this will destroy already rock bottom morale and that

Jeremy Hunt is in the business of exporting junior doctors to the

southern hemisphere, acting as a recruiting sergeant, she said, for

the Australian and New Zealand health services. So yes, the dispute

as far as finding a resolution, the position of a contract is over, but

is the political row over? I suspect not. Understatement, but thank you

very much, Chris Mason. Reporting on the fact that Jeremy

Hunt has imposed the government contract.

Google's tax affairs are under scrutiny again today,

as two of its senior executives have been in front

You'll remember that both the Califorina-based firm

and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs have been taking a lot

of flak over a settlement which saw Google pay ?130m in back taxes.

Here's Tom Hutchinson, a vice president of Google

to the Public Accounts Committee earlier.

Our overall effective tax rate for Google as a whole

across the world for the last five years is 19%, so I would say,

since that's very close to the UK tax rate, we are paying a fair

It is up to governments to decide where we should be paying that tax,

so I would love to see the system be more simple,

so we won't have to come to hearings like this and explain it,

but we need governments to actually work together and develop an overall

worldwide system, to take that 19% and split it among the countries

We're joined now by the Conservative MP Matt Warman, in a former life

he was a technology journalist, and by the Labour MP Caroline Flint

who was among those questioning the Google executives ealier.

I saw you in action this morning, what did you come away with? What

was your overall feeling? It is clear they did not pay the tax they

should have done under the system that we have got, and what has not

helped Google in all of this is when, a few weeks ago, they made

this announcement, there was no sense that they had been found out,

we are sorry about that. Instead, this is a fantastic thing, haven't

we been wonderful? When you hear that clip, saying we wanted more

simple, the problem is that Google makes choices to make their

arrangements very complicated. We have the situation with Ireland,

Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, Holland as well, which makes trying to

fathom out what is going on very complicated. Yes, we should make it

simpler, but they have to own up to the fact that they use these

contrivances to get around paying tax. Governments of both persuasions

have made the system incredibly complicated, and it means companies

like Google hire the best accountants to take advantage of

every complication. The last Labour government doubled the size of the

tax guide, and this government has added another third to the tax

guide! It is now the largest tax guide in the world, it is, I think I

am right in saying, 16,000 pages. The Hong Kong tax guide is 230. You

have been unintentionally, I don't mean you personally, but as a

political class, have been complicit in creating the kind of rules that

Google can exploit. I think that is right, and a lot of our rules are

based on an old-fashioned system where companies operate as well, so

companies like Google, Twitter, Facebook, often when they start out,

they are not making a huge amount of profit, and what we saw in the last

few years of the Labour government, there was an upsurge in the profits

that they were achieving. So yes, it is overcomplicated, I absolutely

agree, I am a great believer in looking elsewhere to see what they

do, being less arrogant about our own system, but it is also about how

we keep ahead, and HMRC, six years to claw back 130 million, of which

they said 80 million was interest. You established there were no

penalties? No penalties whatsoever. You wrote that companies like Google

needs to be persuaded to pay tax. I am not sure that is how the system

operates. I mean, you do not have to be persuaded, it is the law. That is

the point I make in the next sentence! What we need to accept is

that companies such as Google, any bigger global company, has a choice

to make about where it bases itself, and it has a duty to pay as little

tax as possible. When Caroline says they have a choice about where they

pay tax, in fact, we shouldn't be asking to be treated like a charity,

we should construct a global system, hard as that is, which means we can

extract the right amount of tax. Until we do that, we will not solve

the problem. But even you could be gone by the time we have a global

tax system! Certain things that internationalised tax, which the EU

has done, have played right into the hands of companies like Google,

because they placed IP rights in places like Luxembourg or Ireland

and send all the money there. In the interim, while you're waiting for

your global mobile, what should we be doing? We should be making sure

that tax organisations, such as HMRC, get the best possible deal in

ways that are not going to be legally challenged, as companies

like Google would if we did not come to arrangements such as we have.

What we have got to do is do the best under the system we have got,

but we have to reform the system, because until we do, we will be

having the argument endlessly. Your government was meant to be

instituting the diverted profits tax, but Google was not paying any

of that. They made that clear in the session this morning, that it does

not affect them. That is another interesting point, about the timing

of the settlement. They thought, maybe we had better settle this

after six years, because the diverted profits tax may be coming

down the road. It is the games that are played, and I accept your point,

Matt, companies like Google spent an awful lot on profile and what they

are about, a young company, and they do, and it is about their prestige

as well. But they have been found out on this, because they cannot

deny, given the size of the company that they are, that during that

period they were not paying enough tax, that is the was old of this

investigation. My understanding is that for the period 2005-14 they had

already paid about 120 million, according to the Economist, and now

another 130. In the early days, they would be able to write off a lot of

costs. Argue, as a committee member, now satisfied that, going forward,

they will be paying the 20% whack of corporation tax? I would not say I

am satisfied, because we need more transparency. Just before we had the

committee, we got an invite from HMRC, who said they had asked Google

permission to provide us with a confidential session in which we

would be, with permission from Google, given more information about

the nature of the deal. We did not accept that, because we saw it as a

way to shut down the committee meeting, as a start! It would have

been in Google's interest to be ahead of the pack and say, do you

know what? We're going to share how we arrived at this. If it is under

rules we have not reformed, there are enough, more transparency is

needed, and that is something we will think about when we draft our

report. What are your thoughts, David? The biggest tax guide in the

world? It makes you proud to be British! If something needs a rule,

we have got a rule for it! The idea of transparency is the right thing.

The truth is, we have been involved in a trade-off, isn't it? We wanted

the new technology companies very badly to locate as far as possible

and invest as far as possible in Britain and create a hub, if you

like, for that type of industry, and I think at King's Cross now the

Google headquarters going up is at a cost of ?600 million. Very

impressive building. And on top of five others. By tax definitions, it

is just a pop-up! We had better leave it there. When will your

report, out? We try to get these things turned around quickly,

because it is such a topical debate, probably in the next month. In time

for the next tax year! It's been 60 years since

the cultural revolution swept across China thanks to the chairman

of the country's Communist Party, Mao Zedong, and with it

came his book of quotations It became a must-have item

for intellectuals in Europe and our guest of the day,

David Aaronovitch, has recently made a radio

documentary about it. Why all the fuss?

Here's Giles to explain. Today In the West Chinese Communist

leader Mao Tse Tung is probably no more than a figure of history,

so it was a rather surprised House To assist and I brought along the

little red book. that saw the Chairman's

infamous literary work pop up in the Mother

of all democratic Parliaments. Order! I want to hear that the

contents of the book! In China in the 60's the massed

ranks of the faithful and certainly coerced red brigades

read, waved and recited Many who did will tell you now

they did so in the giddy adulation their Western

equivilants gave to pop stars. It was of it's time,

and the book was part of that. When I was small and the cultural

Revolution started, we had nothing but this little red book. I can

remember one phrase when people said you should not be growing your own

crops at the corner of the collectives, for example, and that

would be terms as a catalyst tile. -- capitalist tale.

For Westerners the lethal truth of Mao's Cultural

revolution was not yet clear and so the little red book took it's

place in the iconography of revolution and radicalism.

The book, was part of a look and said more than it's contents

When so many people are disapproving of it and you are a young person,

what you do? Not agree with them. Younger people and older people did

see the little red book is something revolutionary and encouraging, a

change of politics. Looking back now, I am deeply critical of some

things but it was of some influence, not in terms of its ideology but the

movement stuff of it. they grew up with

revolutionary politics. One who did is wary of those

who grab the symbols I don't think it belittles the

seriousness of the regimes, it makes them a bit more comic. I don't think

Chairman Mao would appreciate the way people joke about the little red

book, he thinks it is serious and people needs to be reading it.

this man's singing the virtues of Mao in 2013.

That's probably Ok in China but here in Britian your more likely

to think of moustachioed operatic insurance advert.

We have our own copy here and it is shorter than the tax guide you are

talking about. our guest of the day

David Aaronovitch has recently made a Radio 4 documentary

on the subject. And he's a busy man,

because he's also written a book about his upbringing

in a communist family and how he became disenchanted

with communism. To discuss all of that we're joined

by Ben Chacko, he's editor of the Morning Star newspaper,

which is Britain's last It is not a communist newspaper, it

is Labour movement. But there was a common is newspaper. What was it

like growing up in a communist household? It was good, actually, in

many ways. Since I have written the book, people who grew up in Catholic

or Methodist background, there are some similarities here. You grew up

as part of the community of beliefs, we had a Communist Party dentist, at

Hilda, the builder came round, he would discuss the Marxist values in

our kitchen! -- Marxist. It was a 90 degrees angle to everybody else.

What everybody else believed we believe the opposite. If they

believe America was good and Russian was bad, we believe that the

opposite. It gave you a good set of beliefs as to whether you continued

in that vein. I knew where I was on every side of every struggle since

Spartacus! It gave you clarity. You studied Mandarin. I have read the

Little Red Book. Do you live by it? Well, the Little Red Book is a

pretty odd book. It is a selection of quotations ripped out of context

from lots and lots of different books that Mao wrote. I think it was

pretty destructive and I think that the Chinese sort of admit that now.

It wasn't a helpful guide to everything in the cultural

Revolution. I feel a bit envious of the way you describe your

upbringing, David, because obviously I do not remember the Soviet Union,

I don't remember the old Communist, but this community actually seems

very comforting, sustaining, and there is comradeship and friendship.

Is that an overly romantic view? It explains why people were reluctant

to leave it in a sense. Even when you have people who had begun to

intellectually drift away and challenge things, there was a real

sense of loyalty which helps people in place, and it is often said about

Communists that they held in contempt everybody who left the

party before them and anybody who left a minute after them! Are you a

Communist? Yes, I am. If you look at the world as it is at the moment,

there is a failed model, which we are seeing increasingly democratic

power handed over to corporate power, the way the EU is dealing

with Ttip treaties. There is a sense that whatever people want, it is not

being permitted by corporate interests. There are increasing

regulations about what you are allowed to demand, and for my

generation, the rights of parents grew up with being taken away and

stop your not expected to have a final salary pension, a contract

which specifies hours per week, and all of these things mean life is

getting worse and not better, and so something is getting wrong -- going

wrong. Are you saying there is a resurgence? There is a resurgence on

the left. Because of Jeremy Corbyn and the support he had. What is your

response to that, I remember being patronisingly told by one of my

lecturers at university that everybody is a communist University

and then you grow up. This is a reinvented Lefty ideology? The

critique of capitalism is the easy bit. Characterisation. The big

problem is whether there was an alternative economic system in

entirety which you can put down to replace capitalism as opposed to

businesses that reform capitalism and discuss how you liberalise it

and how you make people's democratic rights more secure in it. If you

believe there is a completely alternative economic system then it

is up to you to outline what that system is and how you would achieve

it. In other words, the revolution you intend to go through, and that

is where you hit a problem. Have you got an alternative? Is it credible

and tangible? No social movement has been able to specify something you

are going to do in the future is going to work. You could say the

same thing about liberalism and the French Revolution. Liberalism did

not work and it ended in bloodshed and so on. I don't think you can say

that we have an absolute blueprint for what the future looks like stop

I do think it is worth saying, capitalism has its own internal

logic and dynamic capitalism has its own internal

to this situation we are in now where power is increasingly

concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, or wealth is concentrated in

fewer hands, and you cannot reform that system, it has its own logic.

We need to think of something better and try something better. On that,

with Jeremy Corbyn as leader, has your leadership increase? --

readership. It increased by 12%. Fascinating. No longer a big order

from Moscow. They just arbitrarily should people,

you don't need to pay your taxes! -- shoot.

Now, are you planning a visit to the cinema?

Perhaps you're thinking about booking tickets for Zoolander 2.

Although it's been getting so-so reviews.

And I'm afraid the same goes for Dad's Army.

But if you wait until April, you can go and see a film about Brexit.

Yes, that's right, a feature-length documentary making the case

Shame it missed Valentine's Day weekend.

The film-maker behind it is trying to raise ?100,000

we'll speak to him in a moment, but first have a look

This is the single most important political decision any of us

Every continent now is our growing Europe.

Certainly it is not in our economic interest to remain

My name is Martin Durcan, I'm a documentary film-maker,

and I want your help to make a film about Britain's membership

We are about to be given a chance to say what we think,

In this film, I want to spell out the choice before us,

do we want to live under a Europe-wide government,

a vast state machine which few of us understand,

run by people we don't know with the power to impose laws on us

that we haven't debated and have little or no power to overturn?

And the man behind Brexit The Movie, Martin Durkin, joins us now.

You are crowd sourcing this, is that right? Yes. How was it going? It is

going all right, we have ?30,000 through crowd sourcing and other

donations not through that so it is going well. How much you need? Well,

we have got enough to start and it is fairly plain from the promises

that we will have enough to finish. You have started interviewing

people? A cluster. Who have you found impressive? The usual suspects

are impressive. For Raj. -- Nigel Farage. The big names who will be

familiar to you lot. I will try to interview very fairly a lot of the

EU leaders as well but the main aim is to put the argument across so I

don't want it to be a current affairs talking headpiece. We do all

that! The BBC has the EU subject beautifully covered. What will you

tell us that we don't know already? If you do lots of reading, there

won't be that you don't know but I ain't that for people who don't do

lots of background reading, and there are many of us, it lays out

the case and refrains familiar things in unfamiliar ways. It asks

basic questions. The aim is to say, hold on a minute, isn't it nice we

have control of our own destinies and can shape our own futures, and

should we think twice... What shocks me is the casual way which we hand

over to other people the ability to determine other laws, that shocks

me. You have been described as the Michael Moore of the rights, in

reference to the left wing documentary maker. Is that an

accolade? Is the next Communist, that confuses me and I think of

myself as a minute Arian and not Right wing. I was on the time is

powerless and that made me chuckle! -- militarily and. Is it going to be

propaganda, though? Sometimes you make films from the strong points of

view. Your wrist slapped -- you were wrist slapped. There is a space for

someone making the case forcefully, arguing one particular thing. The

BBC had a great European disaster movie and said it would be a

disaster to leave the EU, and I think it was funded by the EU. I

could have waited for the BBC to make the case but I thought we

should do it ourselves. OK, very well. When will he be finished? I

can barely spend the time to come over and talk to you chaps! Will

Bill the biopic follow? It is a documentary not Encyclopaedia

Britannica! I will try and sting you for a contribution later. And the

Queen. There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was what is the name

that Liam Fox and the Brexiteers Is it a) Stayvians b) Persistonians

c) Non-leavians or d) You are absolutely right. That is

the right answer. The One o'clock News is starting

over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11.45 this

evening for This Week, with Michael Portillo,

Labour MP Liz Kendall and former As Ireland head to France

in search of a first victory, can Wales use home advantage

to beat a deflated Scotland? And jubilant England enter

the Stadio Olimpico We want to be able to say,

"We believe in this case."