07/03/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

Was political pressure put on the leader of one of Britain's

biggest business groups to resign after he spoke in favour

You might not have heard of him before today,

but the former head of the British Chambers

of Commerce John Longworth is at the centre of a big political

David Cameron is in Brussels meeting European leaders as they grapple

Can Turkey solve the EU's biggest problem, and what do they want

We'll be looking at Government plans to extend Sunday trading and hearing

And should satirical TV shows be allowed to use clips like this

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

of the programme today two MPs who are beyond satire.

By which I mean of course we'd never think of poking fun at them.

It's Labour's Mary Creagh and Ukip's Douglas Carswell; welcome

Let's begin today by talking about the resignation of the head

of the British Chambers of Commerce, he's called John Longworth.

He told reporters at the BCC's annual conference last week

that the UK could have a "brighter" future outside the European Union.

He was expressing a personal view because the business organisation's

official position is to remain neutral ahead

The BCC said Mr Longworth had accepted his support for leaving

the EU was "likely to create confusion" and he therefore had

But leave campaigners have claimed he came under political

Conservative MP David Davis said he is a Brexit martyr.

This morning's Daily Mail front page refers to 'an honest man knifed

Downing Street says no pressure was put on the BCC to

Here's the Mayor of London and Leave campaigner Boris Johnson speaking

It is very sad that somebody like John Longworth,

who shares my view, who has great experience of British business

and industry, should have paid a heavy price for sharing

You said the agents of project fear had got him out by bullying,

No, he has been asked to step down for expressing what I think

is a passionate, optimistic view of this country's chances.

We're joined now from Bristol by Phil Smith, managing director

of Business West which is the chamber of commerce for the West

Mr Smith, are you pleased to see the back of John Longworth? He had to

go. When you pay someone to represent you and they don't do it,

there's only one conclusion, I'm afraid. Do you think there was

political pressure to remove him? Absolutely not. The members were

unhappy unth up and down the country. The BCC board recognised

that. There was no pressure for an internal decision. You don't think

project fear did fall for him in that sense? Absolutely not. Would it

be fair to describe the BCC as a pro-EU body? They've made it very

clear our stance is to be neutral on the EU and leaving, so I think if

John had come out on Thursday and said to vote to stay, I think we'd

have had the same response. So no, I think no pressure from Number Ten

and it was a neutral stance. So you said even if he expressed the

opposite view, you would have had to go anyway so you don't think any

senior figure in the BCC to your knowledge should express an opinion

about the EU at all? As a collective, as a membership body, we

have take an neutral stance. You pay somebody to do that. I represent my

members here in the West Country, I represent their views. John wasn't

representing his member's views, I'm afraid. What about renegotiation. Do

you think then that the BCC should express a view about whether that

was a good idea in the first place? I'm sure the BCC's always wanted,

well when they have polled members in the past, the majority would

prefer to stay and more would prefer to stay if we got a good deal out of

Europe. For this purpose for now, we have take an neutral stance. John

waivered from it on Thursday, it's brave of him, he sacrificed his

career for his own personal views and good for him but not the BCC

view. I'm afraid. Kim Conchie, CEO has said it's important for

Cornwall, should he have stayed silent? We are separate bodies,

federal organisations, if Kim wants to say that and they get lots of

money in Cornwall from Europe so you can see why he said it, each member

takes their view, but from our point of view, it was to stay neutral and

say nothing, John waiver and I can see why he's paid the price. Thank

you very much. Douglas Carswell, you tweeted Downing Street got their

man. What evidence have you got that there was direct pressure? There

does seem to have been some suggestion, not least in the

newspapers, that there seems to have been some pressure. There's been

some liaison between the BCC and Downing Street. But look, let's not

lose sight of the real issue which is what John long worth, a man who

spent years working with small and medium-sized businesses actually has

said. He clearly feels very strongly that EU membership is bad for small

and medium businesses. We know there are big corporate interest who is

rather like Brussels, they can afford to hire lobbyists. But he

spent his career working with small and medium businesses who believes

we'd be better off out. Does it it main the Remain argument weak. He

crossed the line didn't he though in terms of speaking out? The

organisations decided they should remain neutral, rightly or wrongly,

rather than talking about the substance of what he said. Do you

believe he crossed the line and therefore he had to go? Some have

expressed contrary views. At a regional level. This was the

national... I'm sure they would distinguish, but look at the broad

point of view of the Campaign. Rather than engaging in the

substance of the argument, they are having to resort to the removal

tactics. Let's say he'd come out in fave of staying in, would you expect

him to resign or stay? Given what we have seen, if he'd have argued down

a pro-Downing Street line, he wouldn't have been forced out. But

you don't have the evidence for him being forced out. Number

you don't have the evidence for him they didn't force him out. We have

heard from Phil Smith who says there is no evidence? 24 hours ago I hear

Downing Street was not ruling out the idea that there had been liaison

between officials and the BCC. Mary, did he cross the line and have to

go? He spent time working with ASDA and Tesco and this was his personal

view. Reading the accounts of what happened last week, it was clear

from people in the room that there was unhappiness from the members of

the British Chamber of Commerce. This is a membership organisation

and I know from my time working at Koranfield School of management with

MBAs and entrepreneurs, the membership of the BCC are two to one

in fave of staying as part of the European Union -- Cranfield School.

He is a paid representative of that organisation, that organisation has

a very particular stance which is, we are going to remain neutral.

There's Cornwall and the north-east that want to stay and there's

probably other parts of regions that want to leave, but in order to

manage that, they have decided on this neutral stance and he's broken

it. So you agree he had to go. Do you think Number Ten put pressure on

him? I have no idea but it's clear this is a decision for the British

Chamber of Commerce board not Number Ten and the board have sacked him?

The British Chamber of Commerce set out a series of criteria that they

wanted to see in a reformed Europe. David Cameron's deal's demonstrably

failed to achieve that and it's right and proper therefore that the

people in the Chamber of Commerce express the disappointment that his

new deal is not reforming Europe at all. The membership of the members

of the Chamber of Commerce are two to one in favour of staying in the

European Union. They know it's better for their businesses,

employees, staff and regulatory frameworks. They know that leaving

would mean we'd have to unpick Torith our trade deals and lose a

huge amount of foreign investment. I suppose there is a view about,

whether other influential people feel less likely to talk and speak

out on what is an extremely important issue. Should people be

new untilled that sense? If somebody works for an organisation, they

should not stray from that. That is clear from all organisations. A

Number Ten spokesperson has been briefing journalists and hasn't

denied there was contact. No pressure but there was contact. You

would expect that? It's a euphemism and I'm sure there would say there

was no pressure on the French President to bully us. Downing

Street and the Remain campaign are weak. They are backing out of the

idea of TV debate with the BBC. Downing Street feels it can't get

involved in the substance so they are having to play the man. The idea

of Francois Hollande or the Italian Finance Minister all warning about

the domino effect, if the UK leaves the European Union, about the very

dangerous position that we are in if we do leave, not just for our

country but for the whole continent at a time of great security, unease,

at a tame when Russia is on manoeuvres in Ukraine and Russia,

these are issues people need to hear about. The idea that you can bully

Francois Hollande into anything is for the birds.

Thank you. We've learnt in the last few days

that Labour has allowed a leading left winger to rejoin the party,

to the consternation of some senior Who now proudly owns a shiny

new Labour party membership card? Is it a) Former Bradford

MP George Galloway. b) Mark Serwotka, General Secretary

of the Public and Commercial c) Former militant councillor Derek

Hatton. or d) The filmmaker and founder

of Left Unity, Ken Loach. David Cameron is in Brussels today

for a meeting aimed at tackling The UK is offering to send

a Royal Navy ship and helicopter to help tackle people smugglers,

but the big issue is whether the EU can cut a deal with Turkey that

will help curb a second wave of migrants from the

war-torn Middle East. Some 1.2 million people claimed

asylum in Europe last year. But more and more people

are attempting to make the journey Another 135,000 have arrived

on Europe's shores so far this year, more than six times the number

who arrived in the same EU leaders are keen to reach a deal

with Turkey, because that's the departure point for many

migrants crossing into Europe. The EU will press Turkey to take

back migrants who do not qualify In return, the EU could give Turkey

3 billion euros and resettle some The EU is also likely

to declare the route north Some 13,000 people are currently

stranded at Greece's border with Macedonia, with

the authorities preventing them Meanwhile, the UK is sending a navy

ship to help gather intelligence on people smugglers

operating in the Aegean. It will join other NATO countries

already policing this part However, this NATO mission is also

effectively a coastguard force, as ships will likely end up rescuing

migrants at risk of drowning. Well, David Cameron has arrived

at the summit in Brussels, let's hear what he had to say

to reporters waiting outside. It's important that we help the

continent of Europe to secure its external border. That's in our

interests and that's why we are sending British ships to do just

that. This does underline the special status that we have in this

organisation because, of course, we are not in the Schengen no-border

zone, we keep our own strong borders, so migrants that come to

Europe aren't able to come to the UK and that's important that everyone

understands that. Our correspondent Damian

Grammaticus is in Brussels. Is this monitoring exercise that the

UK is now taking part in meaningful? I think it's one of the important

things that the EU is putting in place, to try and deal with this

crisis. What their aim is, is to try to reduce the in-flow of people from

Turkey into Greece. That's the first thing they want to achieve. This is

one of the ways that they are trying to do that, using the NATO ships,

now the British contribution we know is going to be taking part as well

which will also involve, not just this one ship but also a couple of

coastguard cutters as well. The idea there will be, as you were hearing,

to pass information on to the Turks to try to get the Turkish coastguard

and police to try to intercept people and boats before they make it

into Greek waters. Once they do make it into Greek waters, most people

are in Europe and have to be dealt with and processed by the European

side. So the hope is that this can achieve something. But crucially, it

will all depend, to a large extent on cooperation from Turkey. That's

why what we are seeing here now is the first meeting today which is the

Europeans and Turkey sitting around trying to cajole Turkey to do more.

Right, but is it going to really actively do anything to stop the

people-smuggling trade? I think that's a very difficult question to

answer at this stage. It's an open question. The hope is, I think

amongst European countries, that by having these forces there, and it

won't just be the British, there are a number of other countries

providing ships too, they can provide information, they can

monitor the coastlines, they can try and spot where smugglers are

preparing boats, where people are gathering to set out on their

journey across the sea to Greece and then by passing that information to

Turkey urge the Turks to do something. I think the second thing

it would do as well is give European countries some leverage with Turkey

because if they are able to say, look, we identified all of these

occasions when people were getting on boats, you didn't do anything

about it, it gives them more opportunity to put pressure on

Turkey. That's one thing. The other things they are going to be talking

about is more money for Turkey, more efforts or ideas about trying to

offer a plan to take some refugees and resettle them in Europe anyway,

if Turkey takes part in this plan, and then sending people back, some

who do make it across, this is also being discussed but who may not

qualify for protection in Europe. I'm joined by Fadi Hakura

an associate fellowat Chatham House, an independent think tank focusing

on international affairs. Welcome. Another crisis summit, any

chance of a breakthrough this time? The likelihood is Turkey will accept

to take non-Syrian refugees back into Turkey. What would they like in

return? More money, a strong men from the EU to grant visa free

access to Turks travelling to mainland Europe, as well as a clear

strategy to resettle some of the refugees in Europe. Do you think

that is a price worth paying, having visa free travel in order for them

to take back either failed asylum seekers or non-Syrian migrants? The

Government position is a welcome change from the position 18 months

ago when ministers said they did not want any rescue missions because

they were acting as a so-called pull factor. I welcome that the Prime

Minister is working alongside our EU partners and in Nato. These are free

travel does not apply within the UK, because we are not part of the

Schengen no border zone. I think it is the right thing to do. This has

been a five-year conflict, a quarter of a million people have died, it

has been a war without law, without end, and our response as a rich

group of countries has been incredibly poor, we have taken just

1000 refugees. Should Britain have been part of some sort of quota

system? Given that we have a quarter of a million people now seeking

asylum, over a million people, we should have played our part as part

of the EU, but I would also like to see us move much faster to offer

safe and legal routes to people in those camps so that they are not

forced to make this difficult journey. Do you think it is a price

worth paying? Turkey is crucial in terms of trying to make some headway

with this crisis, but we are asking them to keep its border open with

Syria, close the border with Greece, take-back failed asylum seekers,

they have a right to demand a lot in return. Well done, Prime Minister,

for sending the Navy, but it is Nato on whom we can depend who have taken

the initiative. The EU has made the problem far worse, and if we have

what is already on the table, a proposal for a European institution

to allocate quotas on a pan-European level, we will lose the ability as a

country to decide how many refugees come here. If we vote to remain in

the EU, a Brussels institution will allocate how many refugees come

here, that is on the table already. That is what people will get. The

Prime Minister has rejected that approach, he is wrong. As the fifth

richest country in the world, with this huge crisis on our borders, we

should be voluntarily signing up to that, and we can do that as part of

our opt out for justice and home affairs. Should the EU by Turkey's

cooperation in the way it appears? Any deal will be difficult to

implement. There will not be a durable solution unless there is a

permanent settlement to the Syrian crisis. If not, the flow of refugees

will continue. No amount of security, waltz, quotas or other

mechanisms will prevent people wanting to come to mainland Europe.

For Turkey, is this going to be a successful root for them to further

their EU accession talks and negotiations? The likelihood of them

joining the EU is extremely remote, not in my lifetime. The previous

European minister in Turkey said that in an interview to the Daily

Telegraph, Turkey will likely join Europe any time soon. -- unlikely.

What sort of numbers are we talking about if there is a quid pro quo

where these are free travel comes into operation? There is a fear in

France and Germany and the Netherlands that millions of Turks

will flow over the border into mainland Europe, so we will have

another problem, given that that is more Turkish migrants coming into

Europe already. But that happen? It is a possibility. Turkey is unlikely

to join the EU, but unless we get a grip, large numbers of people coming

through Turkey will join. We need to have a Government and Nato that is

prepared to take robust action. The EU has failed, it has made the

problem was. This deal is to try to control the numbers who might use

Turkey as a route through. The EU has had months, it has made the

problem worse. 1.2 million came across the Mediterranean last year,

it is Nato that is dealing with the problem, the EU has only made it

worse. The EU has failed, you say, it may be the fault of individual

countries, but when you look at it, the EU has failed to deal with this

problem, and if they cannot deal with a migrant crisis like this on

an EU basis, what is the point? It is a refugee crisis, the global

community has failed, we have allowed Vladimir Putin to be on

manoeuvres, we know he has air strikes against hospitals, and

schools, in the northern part of Syria, he is bombing the legitimate

opposition to the president, and they are using the refugee crisis as

a means of further destabilising Europe. It is why our referendum

debate is coming at such a difficult political time, because the risk of

the EU falling apart if Britain leads is not one that people in this

country fully understand. Those pressures need to be looked at. Our

party was wrong not to prevent President Assad once he had

committed those chemical weapons attacks, and from that we have had a

sea of human misery. This seems to be the crux moment with Turkey. But

do you think it is right for the EU to do business with a country whose

Government is growing, according to the media reports, more

authoritarian by the day? Absolutely. Should the EU not be

dealing with them's we have to, and we have to ask, why is the

Government becoming more authoritarian? They are becoming

destabilised with the refugee crisis on their borders. As is Lebanon and

Jordan. The fault is the failure to stem the tide of misery that is

Syria. I have comment does respect for Turkey, this is a failure of the

European project. Should we be talking to Turkey when they are an

authoritarian country? Of course, but the EU has failed to control its

currency, debt crisis and borders, it is a failed project. Is Turkey

being destabilised? Yes, they contributed to the refugee crisis by

allowing a lot of foreign fighters or at least a flow of foreign

fighters into Syria. There is already 2.5 million plus refugees in

Turkey, Turkey is in permanent warfare with the Kurdish

nationalists in the south-east, as well as in northern Syria will stop

they have to do a 180 degrees change in its policy to bring more

stability into Syria. At Europe's biggest shopping centre,

a special church service, a reminder that the shops may be

open legally for the first time on a Sunday, but it

is still the sabbath. This Centre in Gateshead, owned by

the Church Commissioners. It has now bowed to the inevitable. An

estimated 90,000 took advantage of the opening.

Brilliant, I work full-time, so it is ideal.

Sunday is fine for me, it is sometimes the only day

That was the last big deregulation of Sunday trading back in 1994.

And now the Government looks set to revive plans to allow local

authorities to extend Sunday opening hours for supermarkets

At present they're restricted to just six hours, a restriction

that doesn't apply to smaller convenience stores.

Well, it's expected to come to a Commons vote this Wednesday,

but not all Conservative MPs are happy and it looks

like the position of the Scottish National Party

Well, we're joined now by David Burrowes, he's

a Conservative opponent of the plan, and by the SNP's Stewart Hosie.

Do you have enough Conservative MPs on your side to defeat the

Government? We may have. I am concerned about our side.

It was not in the manifesto, the Prime Minister in April said if you

want to shop, you can, but also, if you want to retain that special

characteristic, which we just about have, you can keep that. How many

MPs do you have on your side? 24 signed up, a number of others, I

will not reveal how many, are also lined up, as well as ministers and

the like up and down the party. There are other things we should be

doing to support enterprise, this has come up from a bunch of loud

voices in the West End, Harrods and Knightsbridge, they wanted tourists

to shop until they drop, but let's not have a domino effect that will

impact on shop workers. The SNP need to ask themselves a question,

whether they want to put at risk the pay packets of Scottish workers,

there will be a delusion of workers' right and their pay. You have

changed your position, one of your colleagues said he would support

David Burrows. We will take a decision on Tuesday evening, in good

time for the amendment debate on Wednesday. We were very clear all

the way through, we have had Sunday trading in Scotland for 20 years, it

has been beneficial by and large, but the large businesses pay a

premium for Sunday working. Our specific concern, very specific, is

if this is in essence becomes a UK system, does it have the potential,

as many believe it would, to erode premium paid on a Sunday for workers

in Scotland? Do you have a concession from the Government? No,

the premium pay is not in legislation, it is done on the basis

of the goodwill of businesses. Were it in statute, it would be an easier

debate, but it isn't. Therein lies the difficulty. What is stopping you

making up your mind? We are still getting representations from both

sides. And the unions. Yes, some say it could have a detrimental effect

on pay packets in Scotland. That has to be our primary concern. You need

the SNP, you would defeat the Government. What are you talking

about? We would defeat the Government with the SNP. It is

looking at the evidence. If you look at the Edinburgh economic stake,

they say it will hit the pay packet, or the evidence on the high Street.

Mike small businesses, they have not said, we want you to make sure that

the big stores are open for more than six hours. It is not something

that is needed. If their strong feeling? I am a huge fan of David's,

but I go to church on Sundays and I love shopping on Sundays, we should

be able to do both. You can. But you have restrictions. Why not and are

people to make these decisions for themselves? You can purchase what

you want when you want online. Things will be delivered when you

want. Why force shops? Because of the issue of workers and whether it

is necessary. Let people decide. Workers cannot decide for

themselves, they are often pressurised into working on a

Sunday. We used to get double-time for a Sunday at BHS. It is great

that a third of workers in Scotland get that, but that does not happen

elsewhere. I have sat on the committee, I have signed your

amendment, David. The current plans strike a balance, we should be

keeping the rules as they are. It will mean that people can stay at

home and have time with their families. Men who work on a Sunday

spend less time reading with their families, doing leisure activities,

and this is worrying in terms of how families and the pressure that

families are under. In terms of ministers, are you

expecting resignations over this? Over the weekend, there's been at

least one that's saying they are wrestling with their conscience

because they didn't see this coming. You heard in your clip, the previous

debate, two years to debate this previously, we'll probably have two

hours if we are lucky. This is it, it's not just the voice of big

business. I have to say... I'm doubtful. Let me come back to

Stewart Hosie, could you do a deal with David Burrowes on this? It's

not about doing a deal, it's about looking at the evidence from both

sides, weighing up the protections and the statute and saying, if this

goes ahead on the balance of probability, will Scottish workers

have pay eroded orange? Right now we have to be on the side of workers so

not. So you would be doing a deal then. That won't be a good look for

your supporter? It's not a good look to help the Government get through a

deeply unpopular measure north of the border. You said that without

moving your lips, Stewart Hosie! If a UK-wide system led to the erosion

of terms and conditions and pay packets in Scotland, we couldn't

support that. Because the pay... You don't know that do you though as

such? No, but because the pay protection isn't in statute, it's

incredibly difficult to argue the other side of the case. Yes we can

get guarantees from some businesses but others have said to me, because

this will be deployed perhaps on an English local authority basis,

almost undeliverable full stop. Right. That makes it chaotic. Isn't

that the case that it would be local authorities in the end who'd make

the decision? Yes, it's a one-way valve. You can only further

deregulate, you can't restrict. What is wrong with that then? Why should

politicians in Westminster dictate? This is based on the Government

making the case without publishing all the analysis and evidence. They

are making the case that in the interests of deregulation, it makes

economic sense. On a local level, you will see a competitive

environment. It will be a race to the bottom. Each local council will

have a big voice loud and clear. They'll want to deregulate further.

Is that a glass half empty analysis? We are talking act using the law of

the land to prevent people from spending their Sundays the way they

want. Come on, we live in a free country, let people do what they

want. You have to look at the people, a lot of them will be

shopping if they want to, there are also workers. Most are having to

work on Sundays already. Most do not want to work the extra hours and do

not want to feel implied or explicit pressure. They're there for the

families who want the choice as we have. We have a decent compromise,

why unpick it now? It's unnecessary. Most Conservatives think... Is

anyone listening to you? The Government are looking at

compromises. One option is to zone into a tourist area, but many are

concerned by the principle of it. You are saying that might be

possible? It would be an idea if the big tourist magnets like West End of

London. That is an interesting experiment if it worked. It might be

something to look at. But I've sat on the Bill committee for this. The

way the legislation is drafted, it's not West End legislation, it's

national. Brandon Lewis's compromise about the red line around the high

street whatever that is, not out of town, in Wakefield, I have 5,000

people who work in retail, what does it mean if you are outside you don't

get it and if you do you can. It's confusion and it's confusing also

for the large stores. Sainsbury's, Tescos, Waitrose have all come out

saying they don't want this, because they don't want in Wakefield one

system and in Leeds another different system. Are you confident?

No. We'll wait and see what happens today. I'm confident that an

increasing number of my colleagues recognise this is unnecessary, not

needed, keep things as they are. We have a good British compromise and

let's carry on and get on with important issues of helping small

businesses and enterprise. Thank you both very much.

Now Harold Wilson won four general elections,

held the UK's last referendum on EU membership, abolished capital

punishment and promised to harness the famous white heat of technology.

This week marks the 100th anniversary of his birth,

and Mps are calling for him to be recognised as one of the 20th

As you know, Her Majesty The Queen has agreed to my request that

Parliament should be dissolved on Friday and the general election

will be held on Thursday 10th October.

This, believe it or not, is the first piece of political

television I can ever remember seeing.

I had no idea what was being said, I just remember the man

The irony is that for a man whose memories eluded him too early

in his life, his dementia may be the reason our memories and memorial

of him are perhaps less than some think he deserves.

Brilliant man, Prime Minister, but he had this debilitating

By the time he came to talk for me in the 1979 election,

he was still functioning, but his memory was slipping away,

and he had already suffered from letting people know that

Even when he was in the House of Lords, he was not in a condition

Denis Healey lived right into his 90s, very articulate,

speaking out about his career, his life, his contribution,

The members' lobby of Parliament, the atrium for MPs before they enter

the Commons chamber, has busts and statues of some former

The iconic ones are Churchill, Lloyd George, Attlee and Thatcher,

Some think Wilson ought to be another.

Especially since this Friday is the centenary of his birth.

Many of us have forgotten much of what Wilson did to change the way

Someone said the other day, Harold Wilson as Prime Minister

Both in terms of censorship, the rights of women being promoted,

homosexual law reform, the end of capital punishment.

That era, the 60s, that people think about the Beatles and a change

in life, Harold was at the helm, he wanted Britain to

He also knew that we had to do it with high skills,

innovation, facing the future as a modern nation.

So far, the Speaker's art fund has rejected plans for a full statue,

they say he has the bust and there is a Wilson Room.

But he says if the real obstacle is cash, not a problem.

If the Speaker says to me, or the art fund says,

And the Labour MP and historian Tristram Hunt is giving a speech

about Harold Wilson this evening, and he joins us now.

Lloyd George, Churchill, Atlee and Thatcher, does Wilson deserve to be

ranked amongst them? Harold Wilson most certainly does. He was a great

Labour Prime Minister and did the two things really that successful

insurgents need to do. He put the Labour Party on the side of a

patriatic British future, that great moment in 1964, The Beatles first

low pressure, lady chatterly's trial, Wilson caught this

progressive moment. What he also did was to reinvent socialism. Every

great Labour Leader updates socialism for the modern era so this

notion of a white heat of the scientific revolution. It's very

modern Jo because it speaks about automation and technological change

and change in society and how the Labour Party needs to put a kind of

active, what we'd call today an entrepreneurial state behind this

technology to deliver for citizens. He was seen as the great fixer and,

for many people, he was the Prime Minister and leader of the Labour

Party that sort of held the party together that that really was his

driving force. Do you think that is why perhaps some of the achievements

that you have outlined have been overshadowed? He is known as this

fixer. Barbara Castle used to talk about his eel-like qualities and

ability to keep the show on the road. But look at what came out of

that. Incredible legislation in terms of female rites, incredible

change to liberal reform, abolition of death penalty, change to divorce

law and abortion law. Also I think from a Labour perspective what was

impressive was his attack on inequality. This was a golden age of

capitalism with rising living standards which Wilson oversaw and

crucially, he put education as a real priority of every Labour

Government, the Open University, he was hugely proud of his University

of The year. Today, as well as busts, what we should also think

about, we are losing some of the edge on the Internet and education

and technology and social progress. I think, as well as the bustses, we

should think about how we reflect on Wilson's achievements and have a

push on the Internet on education. 1-1 of the achievements would be the

referendum in 1975. One of my colleagues... This is archive, Jo.

Yes. My colleague brought this in, the two leaflets for No and Yes at

this time. In pristine condition. Interesting to go for brown to vote

No. Hold them up to the camera, we don't want to be accused of being

unimpartial. At the time it was Labour that was so divided and

Harold Wilson's gamble paid off, if you like. Do you think there are

huge similarities between Wilson's dilemma then and Cameron's now?

There are extraordinary parallels. Wilson was trying to keep his party

together, trying to keep Labour in power and he was trying to keep

Britain in the European Economic Community and you could flip all

that for David Cameron today. What's interesting though is, where you see

a slight difference is, David Cameron is in a sense even more

enthusiastic for Europe than Harold Wilson was. Wilson was a slightly

reluctant campaigner but the difference crucially is that Wilson

made the progressive case for Europe and it was a case about high skills

and high wage and growth and it was I think a much more positive case

rather than some of the stuff we are seeing from the Prime Minister at

the moment. Crucially, he pulled it off, he won, succeeded. That was

obviously the result of that, it paid off for him. David Cameron will

obviously be hoping the same will happen this time around. Well, if

Corbyn is running your movement, you are going to look back fondly at the

previous Prime Minister apart from Tony Blair. I can see the attraction

of looking back. When Wilson talk about the scientific revolution,

it's a technocratic mindset. The revolution is built on that top-down

set. In the digital age, trying to arrange the age of millions is

doomed to failure. Fundamentally the world's changed from the old days

and I think the Government wanting people to vote to remain will lose

on this occasion. Rightly so. This is the interesting difference today.

Douglas is right in his response to the white heat was a status response

that you had to manage this and ended up with ayous. The response to

the Labour Party today is to be how do you emboyer citizens to deal with

technochange, so how do you create Trade Unions for the ubeer radio and

employment and maternity rights in self-employment so. Embrace the

modern white heat of uber, the Internet and super computers but

also have a strong Social Democratic response.

You two can join forces. Mary? We have the great Anglo-French

collaboration around Concorde and breaking the sound barrier. How did

that work? Well. Where is it now? It's been mothballed. Failure. A a

good metaphor for the European Union. The Airbus collaboration

creates thousands of jobs across the country and is one of the two major

manufacturers of aeroplanes and so there is this state thing that you

are very negative about. I think ah old would be looking at the European

Union now and saying it's evolved over time and how do we deal with

the networks. ATh Please can I come in. Concorde was a great triumph. It

was good at transporting rock stars across the Atlantic, like the

European Union, it subsidises rich bankers, they get bail outs,. .

European Union, it subsidises rich European Union also delivered

low-cost air travel across Europe. The Ryanair, easyJet revolution is

built upon... Deregulation is possible without being in the

European Union. They have cheap air travel in other places. Let me

return to the question. What would Harold Wilson make of Jeremy

Corbyn's Labour Party today? I think he'd look at it as a party that is

not making the progress that we should be making. Walter Harrison

was one of the whips in the Wilson government that kept that show on

the road. Well, I think what this post-war generation of politicians

had was an absolutely laser-like desire to keep power, win power and

change people's minds. Do you think that's gone? We are in danger

change people's minds. Do you think losing it and looking in on

ourselves and we need to keep looking out. Wilson believed the

Labour Party was the natural party of Government. He didn't believe the

Labour Party was a protest movement protesting outside other Party

Conferences. He thought it should be round the table delivering social

justice for the people that came into being to represent. He'd be

horrified by the tendency towards endless protests, rather than

thinking about how we get into power and do what Labour Governments are

about, tackling inequality, promoting education, dealing with

technology, putting us at the heart of Europe.

Well, it looks like we can expect another week dominated by the EU

referendum, but what else will be on the agenda?

Tonight sees the usual weekly meeting of the Parliamentary Labour

Last week Mr Corbyn addressed his MPs for the first time this year

Tuesday could mark a significant point in the campaign ahead

of the referendum on EU membership, as the governor of the Bank

of England Mark Carney goes in front of the Treasury Select Committee

to outline the possible implications for a vote to leave.

Also on Tuesday, leave campaigner and minister Priti Patel is expected

to speak at an event promoting Women For Britain,

a group which will try to persuade women of the case

Will Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday be overshadowed

by the start of the third strike by junior doctors in England?

The 48-hour action is part of their campaign against

the Government's decision to impose a new contract.

Labour MP Dan Jarvis gives a speech on Thursday

The former soldier is often spoken of as a future party leader.

And Friday sees the opening rally of the Liberal Democrats' spring

Joining me now from outside Parliament is the Spectator's Isabel

Hardman and Joel Taylor from the Metro.

The junior doctors strike, another one expected because they have not

reached an agreement or a compromise, the Health Secretary

said the Government will impose the new contract later this year. Is

there any hope of some sort of breakthrough? No, and Jeremy Hunt is

determined not to let the BMA win. Colleagues of his say that he talks

about the need to stand up to the doctors so it does not encourage

other groups to behave badly. What he seems to be tripping is that

doctors will stop supporting the BMA now that it is continuing to take

industrial action post imposition of the contract. What are we to think

in terms of public support? Is it still fairly consistently in favour

of junior doctors or waning? The doctors being part of the NHS gets a

lot of natural support from the public, but it will be a harder

test, with the 48-hour strike, thousands will see operations

cancelled, it cause increasing disruption. It will be put to the

test. Let's talk about the budget. We expect lots of leaks, but fuel

duty rising, we have had cheaper petrol prices compare to the past,

that lightly? The likeliness of anything depends on how angry Tory

MPs get over the next week and a bit. George Osborne knows the party

is in a fractious mood, and for him to introduce any measure that will

cause a row on top of the row about the referendum is unlikely, which is

why he has retreated from reforms on pension tax relief. If he wants to

press ahead with tax cuts for the middle classes, for most people, you

take it all the way down the tax rates, does he not have to do

something if he wants to keep a lid on Government borrowing? He will

have to find something. He is trying to maintain the balance with his

backbenchers. They don't want any further disruption and distractions

from the issues at hand. In terms of pension tax relief, that also is an

issue that Conservative MPs have been angry about. Is that looking

less likely? Much less likely. It's a shame, because it is the stage at

which you can attempt these radical reforms, but because of the mood in

the party it is unlikely he will want to do something that will end

up clobbering his natural supporters in the middle classes. Boris Johnson

gave his first broadcast interview since declaring for Brexit

yesterday, what was your assessment? He was afflicted with the problem

that a lot of Brexiters have, they failed to put an image forward about

what would happen afterwards. But there were excerpts talking about

Upland and great country that would appear warming to his supporters in

clips. It got a pasting in the papers, I don't know whether it was

because expectations had been raised or whether the style of the

interview was not to everybody's taste. He was quite rambling, I was

surprised at how people went at him, he has had bad reviews. He made a

compelling case for wanting to leave, if not for what would happen

once Britain did leave. There was a lot of pressure, because he is the

charismatic figurehead of the campaign. They are relying on him to

appeal to voters who are not particularly interested in

politicians generally, and he did not make that mark. David Cameron

has had a successful few weeks, scaring voters. What will he do now?

Will he be relatively quiet, or will he continue with his campaign? I

don't think it is in his nature to be quiet. He was not intending to

take a leading role for the campaign, but he is stuck with it. I

cannot see him shying away to frequently from sticking his neck

out. Thank you very much. It is the Parliamentary Labour Party

tonight, where you there last week? Yes. It was the first time Jeremy

Corbyn had come to address Labour MPs, and tonight he will take

questions. Last week he stated he was confident about what will happen

in the local Government elections in May and the Police and Crime

Commissioner elections, and I share that confidence, we have new young

members, I was on the doorstep for Sadiq Khan last Thursday, very

positive response in London. We should make gains in council that we

need to win. Will you? We absolutely should, Calderdale has been hit by

the floods, we only need to take one seat to take control of the council.

Just fill it, when asked if Labour could win the election, said

absolutely not. It is too early to say, this is the first electoral

test for Jeremy, he is up beat, as am I. It is important we keep our

eyes focused on the by-election in Sheffield Brightside, we had our new

candidate selected, she will be standing, and I have no doubt she

will be a brilliant MP, and what a courageous woman, to take part on so

soon after first husband died. Now, because the Daily Politics

is a high-brow news and current-affairs show -

no laughing at the back, please - we can show

you this happening. He was looking relaxed

now, but then... Mayhem, as parliamentary drama

turned into a circus. Let's speak to Nick

Robinson, who was there. I was sitting a few feet

away from Mr Murdoch, half a second before he was hit

in the face with a plate Yes, that was a foam pie

being thrown at media mogul Rupert Murdoch as he gave evidence

to a select committee back in 2011. But while we can show it to you,

footage from Parliament can't be used by any light-entertainment

programme or in political satire. Last week one MP pressed the House

of Commons to rethink the ban. Here's what Leader of

the House Chris Grayling had to say. Could we have a statement

on the uses of broadcast footage My constituent Charlie Brooker

has raised with me... He has raised that he is not able

to use it in his programme Screenwipe, whereas other

not-dissimilar It depends whether it is satire,

light entertainment or factual. Given how vague the boundaries

are and these rules were dreamt up 27 years ago, would he not agree

with me it is a good juncture to revisit this

and have a statement? If it is a matter that concerns her,

she should put a submission to the administration committee,

but I think it is important we make sure the coverage of this House

is used in an appropriate way. I am not in favour of it

being made available Well, we're joined now

by the former MP Tom Harris, who thinks it's time to let

the satirists get stuck in. That recording of the pie that we

showed can be used in a news report, but not in a satirical programme.

Does it make sense? Makes no sense. It is a rule that is nearly 30 years

old. In the late 80s when MPs were being strong bond to support for the

first time the televising of Parliament, they needed reassurance

that they were not going to be mercilessly mocked. In 2016, of

course they are going to be mercilessly mocks, that is life, and

they need to get over themselves and are now it to happen. Do we want MPs

to be overly ridiculed and exposed to ridicule if they are perfectly

able to do it themselves? Indeed they are. But the idea that you

would offer some special protection to Parliament, of all the

institutions, even the Royal family does not get that, so why would our

elected representatives? They are big and ugly enough to look after

themselves, to answer for themselves, they don't need this

protection. If they do, I wonder if they are up to the job. One might

say, you would say that now, you are not an MP anymore, I never heard

this clamour from when you were an MP. That is right. The wonderful

perspective one is given when you are no longer a member of the

chamber! From the comfort of your studio! In the spirit of John

Wilkes, who was banned from reporting what MPs said,

broadcasters should ignore this. There are ridiculous rules that the

House of Commons put into place, broadcasters should ignore it. I was

told I could not use Periscope to broadcast, and I ignored it.

Although it pains me to agree with Douglas, I do. Tom and I worked on

the shadow transport team for many years. The Internet means these

clips can be picked up, used, accused in whatever way. The idea

that you say that you cannot show something funny to John Stuart on

the capital at a show, it is Alice through the looking glass. Would

Chris Grayling make a good subject for satire? I described him last

week as somebody who looks like he had just been ejected from an

undertaker's convention for bringing everybody else down. I am sure he is

a light-hearted chap, but he needs to drag the house into the

21st-century. He is to drag the house into the

justify the old buffer culture. Will it change? It has do. In fairness to

the Speaker, when I first became an MP I could not put online clips of

me speaking in the chamber, I had to go through a bureaucratic process,

the Speaker has changed it, we need to go further. Argue about to

replace the Prime Minister's favourite columnist in the Daily

Telegraph? Who is he? Dan Hodges. Yes, I am. You are going to become

his favourite! I and the new Dan Hodges, but more clean-shaven and

probably slightly more right wing. You will say goodbye to your friends

in the Labour Party? No, I am sticking in there for the laughs. I

will be using this platform to speak truth unto powerlessness. For the

laughs, that this charming. How dare you, see me later! I will!

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

The question was, which leading left-winger has re-joined the Labour

A) former MP George Galloway, b) unions boss Mark Serwotka,

c) former Militant councillor Derek Hatton, or d) the filmmaker

Mocks what car. If he is nicer to me on question Time, it would be a good

thing. The 1pm is starting

over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon tomorrow

with all the big political stories