11/04/2016 Daily Politics


11/04/2016

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Afternoon, folks - welcome to the Daily Politics.

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There's a new craze sweeping Westminster.

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Senior politicians are queuing up to join in.

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Forget kissing babies and tweeting about your visit

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Yes, publishing tax returns is the new thing!

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David Cameron has become the first Prime Minister to publish details

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He was closely followed by Scotland's First Minister,

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and other senior politicians are expected to follow

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Following the leak of documents from a Panamanian law firm

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the Government will announce new measures to tackle tax evasion.

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Labour says a full public inquiry is needed.

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Tata Steel is to begin the formal process of selling its UK plants -

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thousands of jobs are still at risk if a deal can't be found.

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However, a City investment firm has agreed to buy the steel

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A quarter of British Muslims support the idea of Sharia law being given

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And with us for the whole of the programme today,

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the Labour MP Jess Phillips and the Conservative MP

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Jeremy and George are likely to in the next few days.

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John did it a while ago, as did Zac and Sadiq.

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Nigel, however, says it's a big no no.

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Yes, it's the new craze in Westminster, it seems.

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It's been a "taxing" few days for the Prime Minister - boom boom -

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after details emerged of his late father's offshore investments

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following the leak of the so-called Panama Papers.

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Yesterday Mr Cameron became the first British Prime Minister

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to publicise his tax affairs in such detail.

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So now the spotlight inevitably moves onto other politicians,

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speaking on the Westminster Hour last night UKIP leader Nigel Farage

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I worry where we are going with this.

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If we want to have party leaders publish their tax returns then

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Presumably then all councillors must do so, Bishops of course must do so,

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Actually, I think in this country what people earn is regarded

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However speaking this morning the Conservative backbencher

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Jacob Rees Mogg argued that such transparency was inevitable.

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My personal position is that I think MPs are going to have

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to publish their tax returns within the next few years.

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I can't say I'm enthusiastic about this.

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But it is the mood of the country and politicians need

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So that will lead me in due course, I expect, to publish my tax return.

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Joining me now is the Conservative MP Charles Walker and the SNP's

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Was the Prime Minister right to publish the headlines of his tax

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returns? He made a decision about personally I would not have done

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that but I'm never going to be Prime Minister. Why would you not have

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done it. People need private space. The Prime Minister has not done

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anything wrong, he followed the law and paid his taxes and there was a

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principle of privacy in this country around tax matters as we do other

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matters. Today it is his tax affairs, why not his medical records

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next. They publish those in the United States if you run for

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president. Could not be said that we know that he followed the law

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because he has now published his tax returns and that is not now in

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doubt. The truth is we are never going to restore public confidence

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in our politicians because the media ultimately Wilmot that the public

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have confidence in us. So we have this great media confection and we

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move on then to the next great media confection. If you want the public

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to believe that the Prime Minister is a crook, and that is what you are

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peddling, that he is a crook. You used that word, not me at all. If

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you go back on the tape when you finish with this programme I said it

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was because of the publication of his tax returns that we know he has

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not done anything illegal. For the last five days the media has

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peddled... Take that word back that I accused the Prime Minister of

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being a crook. You are big enough to take it. Not if it is not true. The

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truth is the media has spelt the line for the last five days to

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suggest our Prime Minister is a crook. If that is not the case then

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why are we having this debate. The Prime Minister has done nothing

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wrong and it is objectionable to see a good man reduced to having to

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defend his father in the way he has had to do. I do not think the Prime

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Minister has done anything wrong in the legal sense at all. What has

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happened, he did benefit from an offshore trust, and he admitted

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that. It is shown a bright light, into a dark corner. That is the

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issue of business fund trust established in overseas territories

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and administered by Panamanian lawyers. We will talk about this

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issue in a moment. I'm talking about tax returns at the moment. I will

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come to that. This is the key thing, I think that people in power and

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especially in the Cabinet, in government, responsible for setting

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tax policy, must be scrupulously clean and demonstrate to the public

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that they are not benefiting from loopholes in the tax system. I'm

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glad that he published them as did the First Minister. Now you have

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seen the headlines of the tax returns, as it clear in your mind

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that the Prime Minister has not benefited from those loopholes. He

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said he owned units in a trust, he sold bows and paid tax on the

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dividends. There was no capital gains tax liability and that is

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clear and legal. But that is not the point, the point is the offshore

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nature of the business which we know is abused by other people. Not by

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the Prime Minister. Not in this case but used by other people to hide

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assets. Should the rest of the Cabinet now published their tax

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returns? I think they should have a declaration that they had not

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benefited from offshore funds or offshore assets. That you should not

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invest in any kind of offshore, overseas investment M if it is an

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overseas investment, buying stocks and shares in IBM, that is one

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thing. But if you're investing in an institution established in an

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overseas territory and administered by a Panamanian law, the public have

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a right to ask why you're doing that instead of putting the cash into

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stocks and shares through your local stockbroker. This is difficult, my

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understanding is Minister people through their pensions, have

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investments in offshore funds. I do not know then where it ends.

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Personally I hope the Cabinet does not start to publish their tax

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returns because where it will end up inevitably is that all our

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constituents will have to publish their tax returns. And I hope that

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that is not the case. So where should it stop? I said the people

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responsible for determining tax policy, effectively the government,

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should publish, the Cabinet. I suspect that other MPs will want to

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and it will make dull reading to be honest. I suspect that will happen

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and if that provides more transparency and gives a bit of an

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-- confidence and encouragement to people at the top to do likewise,

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that is good. Where are you on this? There are so many people using

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weasel words to try to create an odour of malpractice when actually

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as we have established, absolutely nothing either legally or morally

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wrong has happened. I think it is really corrosive. I think it is

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really corrosive when the mood music makes out that everyone in politics

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or people at the top of politics are somehow dirty when British lunatics

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is amongst the cleanest politics in the world. So should this end with

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the Prime Minister, or should attend with the Cabinet publishing tax

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returns? I do not think the Prime Minister should have had two or

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should have put his tax returns into the public domain. He chose to do

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that and I respect his personal position but I think it is wrong.

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And poor Jeremy Corbyn to say everyone in public life, where was

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that stop, the bishops who sit in the House of Lords, senior members

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of the military or judiciary, the media? At what stage do we say,

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enough is enough. We are to take people on trust unless there is

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evidence to the contrary. This could be the price now but politicians are

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paying because of the recent collapse in trust in politicians. We

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all put our declarations of interest in the public domain, are expensive.

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I do not see a massive upturn in political trust in response to that.

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We could put our medical records, are inside leg measurement, all

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kinds of things in the public domain and that would not generate an

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increase in trust. You think even if every MP was to publish tax returns,

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it would make no difference. I fall in line with Jacob Rees-Mogg, but

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the public now demands that and I feel we are going to have to fall in

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line. I think it is a shame that we are in a position where once again

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politicians are seen to be untrustworthy. It is not for the

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sake that people will have a go at me on Twitter that I do not want

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this to be done but because everyday people must rely on us to make their

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tax laws, rely on us to do the right thing by them. If they do not trust

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us then we will have to literally start to give out are inside leg

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measurement. So should Cabinet ministers all publish their tax

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returns? I think I'm reticent to say they should but the public is

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demanding it at the moment so yes, I think we're going that way. What

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about my wife and children? We could move assets to them. Where does it

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end, will my wife then have to publish tax returns, my children,

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what about my mother? This is utter nonsense. One of the issues here

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that is overlooked, publishing tax returns, what will that really tell

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you. Tax returns after all are what has gone through the tax system,

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what has been approved by HMRC. If you have done something that you do

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not want people to know about, it is not likely to be on your tax return.

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Precisely. And the tax return is interesting in terms of

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transparency, but it is a declaration of no benefit from

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offshore trusts and fans, that aspect we are more interested in. So

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you do not benefit from a perceived loopholes. Why not just said that we

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are abiding by the law? It is one law for one person and one for

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everyone else. There really is not. One law is for Prime Ministers and

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Cabinet ministers and another set for everyone else. Just because

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anything David Cameron might have done was legal, it does not prevent

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people thinking this one law for the richest one for everyone else. What

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has David Cameron done wrong? I have not actually seen his tax returns,

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just a copy. In the years that he has been Prime Minister, it does not

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seem he has done anything illegal. Such weasel words, it does not seem

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that he has done anything illegal. That is a disgraceful thing to say

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and that is what I said at the start, you're trying to position the

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Prime Minister in a very unpleasant and underhand way. Not just you

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personally but a lot of people, as being dishonest. It is disgraceful.

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Hold on. Just to get it clear, in your view from a perusal of what we

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know of the last six years of his tax returns, he has done nothing

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wrong. Nothing illegal. So what has he done wrong M I cannot say. You

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describe the behaviour of his late father is utterly disgusting. What

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was utterly disgusting dash-mac it is utterly disgusting when people

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live in a society and do not want to pay all that is their fair share in

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any wealth or earnings that they have in this country. My parents did

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not have a little postbox in Panama where they sent their savings, they

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put them in the UK and spent them here. But any dividends paid from

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the fund, whether offshore or not, and any capital gains made from the

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fund, whether offshore or not, were taxed in the UK. Had that money

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being invested to UK stockbrokers, would have been more tax liability?

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An interesting question, but if he paid tax on all the dividends and if

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he paid capital gains tax on any capital gains made from the fund

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committee chair, was relinquished, what does disgusting about that? He

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lives in the UK, he uses the systems here that everyone else uses. My

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late mother was dying and was offered an inheritance tax stitch

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up, her account and said to her if you give it to so-and-so and she

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said I'm going to give it to the hospital treating me for cancer.

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Just finally, if he paid tax on everything that he was meant to,

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because the money was repatriated here and subject to British tax,

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what was disgusting? What is disgusting is living in this country

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and having your business in a fake post box in a different country. So

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you do not have to pay UK tax. But he did pay UK tax, we're told. Had

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it been here, but he had to pay more tax, if he had invested it in

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stockbrokers here would he have had to pay more tax? I'm not sure what

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the final word is. Then you will not need it! We have a new culture of

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bullying in this country. And this is not going to go away. The Foreign

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Minister will publish his tax returns, others will have to, it

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will be medical records next and go on and on. What politicians do one

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day I suspect our constituents will be following on pretty closely

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afterwards. This afternoon, David Cameron

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is expected to tell MPs that his Government "has done more

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than any other to take action against corruption in all its forms"

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but they "will go further". As the Prime Minister

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published his tax returns, Labour unveiled a 10-point plan

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to tackle tax avoidance, including a call for an immediate

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public inquiry and a register This afternoon, David Cameron

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is expected to announce criminal penalties on companies whose

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employees encourage This is in addition to plans

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announced in February last year by then-Liberal Democrat

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minister Danny Alexander - for a new offence for firms that

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fail to prevent tax evasion. That new offence is expected

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to become law later this year. Mr Cameron has already announced

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a new task force led by HM Revenue and Customs and the National Crime

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Agency to investigate allegations of tax-dodging and money laundering,

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raised by the so-called The government has also repeated

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commitments to introduce over 25 further measures in this Parliament

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to tackle tax avoidance and evasion, raising - they claim -

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a further ?16 billion in tax. In 2013 the then coalition

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government introduced a General Anti-Abuse Rule

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which outlawed reducing tax by legal means, where those arrangements are

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put in place purely to reduce tax. And last April the government's

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Diverted Profits Tax - the so-called "Google Tax" -

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came into force, aimed at big businesses who operate in the UK

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but avoid tax by trading In January, George Osborne claimed

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this tax resulted in Google agreeing to pay ?130 million in backdated

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tax, but it later emerged Has this government done more on tax

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evasion than any other previous government? There has been a number

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of steps. Some of the measures taken are good. Some of the stuff that has

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been announced is also helpful. I'm concerned about getting to the point

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where beneficial ownership of these businesses is clear to the

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authorities, not just his Mrs but also assets bought with the cash.

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There are 20, 30, ?40 million properties in Mayfair bought in cash

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without a mortgage wrapped up in corporate envelopes, who is the

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owner? Where do they get the money from? It is not just about tax

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avoidance but about identifying criminality. Those are parked in

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assets in the middle of London. Which they cannot move unless you

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want to rip up the house? Yes but they can park the money there

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safely. How does the British government find it out and what does

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it do about it? The reason that the Panama papers have very few American

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names is because of an agreement between Panama and the United

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States. Let's make sure that bilateral agreements are in place so

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we have access to the correct data from the correct places, identify

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the genuine beneficial owners and if they are due to be taxed, make sure

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the tax due is paid. What do you say? I think that making offshore

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tax havens like Panama more transparent is no bad thing. It is

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very dangerous to conflate very different terms. Tax avoidance and

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tax evasion. Tax evasion is illegal activity. We absolutely, the

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government in this Parliament and previous ones, have been cracking

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down in previous ones. The response to tax avoidance, if you do find it

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morally Republicans... As David Cameron did with Jimmy Carter. You

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change the rules, if they are acting in their way that society thinks is

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wrong, the response is to change the laws. That's definitely true. Tax

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evasion is clear-cut. Tax avoidance, there is a clear... There is a

:20:35.:20:43.

spectrum. At one end, tax avoidance that politicians encourage, like

:20:44.:20:48.

putting money in an ice all taking out a pension. There is really

:20:49.:20:52.

aggressive tax avoidance at the other end, like the Jimmy Carter

:20:53.:21:03.

case, and in between there are a whole range of investment funds,

:21:04.:21:12.

putting up windows, all the rest of it, if you make it so, located that

:21:13.:21:17.

it is a grey area that is quite difficult to define. It is exactly

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right. For the average people, the little people as some people have

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called them today, I wouldn't advise it, it is a company... As far as

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most people are concerned, most people pay their tax PAYE. I don't

:21:34.:21:42.

have a tax return. You can look at my P 60. The combination is that

:21:43.:21:47.

sunlight can't get in and we can't have transparency. What is really

:21:48.:21:51.

interesting about what James said is the difference between evasion and

:21:52.:21:56.

avoiding tax. They are completely different and they are complicated

:21:57.:22:03.

and difficult to understand. We must make that different. I want him to

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promise that we will do the same when we talk about people on

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benefits which are also competitive. Housing benefits, for instance. I

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have sat in debates where people misunderstand their own policy. I

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think it is very consistent, simplifying these financial

:22:22.:22:26.

arrangements, Iain Duncan Smith announced one of their driving

:22:27.:22:33.

ambitions to dramatically simplify the welfare system so that people

:22:34.:22:36.

can actually understand what they are entitled to. It is absolutely

:22:37.:22:42.

right that we simplify the tax system so people understand...

:22:43.:22:47.

Politicians have said that almost every month in the studio. Gordon

:22:48.:22:53.

Brown doubled the size of the tax guide and your Chancellor has added

:22:54.:22:59.

another 30% to it. Mr Brown was in for ten years, your man has been in

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for six. The more you talk about it, the gig at the tax guide you make. I

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like taxes to be necessary... I like them to be paid. I like them to be

:23:14.:23:22.

simple as possible. You went to this often, Jess and I are going to agree

:23:23.:23:27.

on this. They are meant to be paid. We may not have much control over

:23:28.:23:34.

Panama, that may be done through the OECD or on a more global scale, but

:23:35.:23:41.

we have control over what are known as Crown dependencies. To have the

:23:42.:23:46.

companies registered in Panama but actually based in the petition

:23:47.:23:52.

urging I and others. What should we do about the Crown dependencies? --

:23:53.:24:01.

in the British Virgin Islands. It should be pretty straightforward,

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people will find it straightforward, to have a register of the beneficial

:24:09.:24:11.

owners of businesses registered in those territories. As a starting

:24:12.:24:18.

point. Before we even get to Panama and the other countries where law

:24:19.:24:22.

firms provide these services. As a starting point. If British

:24:23.:24:27.

dependencies have a register of beneficial interests in their own

:24:28.:24:32.

areas, we will be able to see, I suspect, very quickly indeed and if

:24:33.:24:37.

we simply follow the money thereafter, the UK Treasury and

:24:38.:24:41.

other Exchequers and tax authorities will find a lot of income that at

:24:42.:24:47.

the moment is hidden and untaxed. If the British government was to do

:24:48.:24:50.

that, others have suggested it, given that you would have two flag

:24:51.:24:55.

it up, what would be to stop all these companies relocated? This is

:24:56.:25:04.

not a UK problem. The figures heard at the weekend were in the region of

:25:05.:25:09.

21 trillion of cash around the world part in what are known as offshore

:25:10.:25:14.

havens. Every Advantest Chrissie in the world once it tax dollars to pay

:25:15.:25:20.

for public services. I think there would be support from every advanced

:25:21.:25:24.

economy for this sort of action. So it needs a global action? Yes.

:25:25.:25:30.

A new statue of Baroness Thatcher has been built and was set to be

:25:31.:25:37.

the sculpture has been blocked by the former PM's daughter Carol.

:25:38.:25:45.

Was it A) Because it wasn't made of iron?

:25:46.:25:49.

Or D) She wasn't holding her handbag?

:25:50.:25:54.

At the end of the show James and Jess will give

:25:55.:25:57.

news for the steel industry. Just before we came on air it has been

:25:58.:26:19.

agreed to sell Tata's steelworks in Scunthorpe. Joining us is business

:26:20.:26:28.

editor Simon Jack. Tell others about Scunthorpe and what are they going

:26:29.:26:29.

to do with it? Good News in an otherwise bleak time

:26:30.:26:42.

for the steel industry. A company that specialised in turnaround

:26:43.:26:51.

failing businesses have bought it and will rename it to British Steel.

:26:52.:26:55.

I imagine everyone will be high-fiving everybody. We will hear

:26:56.:27:02.

from Sajid Javid later today. It should be said, union members are

:27:03.:27:06.

still to vote on pay and pension changes that would see a 3% pay cut

:27:07.:27:10.

and changes to pension benefits in return for a lifeline for over 4000

:27:11.:27:17.

jobs, surely, they will get that support. But this is not the bit

:27:18.:27:22.

that includes Port Talbot in South Wales. There are 10,000 Tata

:27:23.:27:26.

employees around the country whose future remains uncertain. They are

:27:27.:27:32.

going to launch an official sales process for that. There have been

:27:33.:27:36.

tentative signs of interest but the restructuring deal you would need to

:27:37.:27:39.

get that done is much more severe than the one for this and the

:27:40.:27:44.

crucial element is time. It took nine months to get this deal done.

:27:45.:27:50.

Whether the Tata board can sit tight for months when they are losing

:27:51.:27:53.

millions of week is very much unclear. In the context, Scunthorpe

:27:54.:28:00.

seems good news, not great but in the context of bad news for the

:28:01.:28:05.

steel industry. Let's move on to Port Talbot. Is there a preferred

:28:06.:28:11.

buyer? Is there a likely candidate in the frame? Liberty House group

:28:12.:28:19.

and its chairman Sanjiv Gupta have come forward as a potential saviour.

:28:20.:28:25.

This is not the one that the faithful want to hear. This is a

:28:26.:28:30.

radical restructure of the plant at Port Talbot, getting rid of the

:28:31.:28:34.

blast furnace and replacing it with an industry that is less intensive

:28:35.:28:38.

and lest people intensive. You would need massive support and retraining.

:28:39.:28:43.

Whether that can be done when Tata have said that they want a deal done

:28:44.:28:47.

in a time bound way. I will be talking to them later today to find

:28:48.:28:51.

out what they mean by that. They think they need to do a deal in

:28:52.:28:57.

weeks, it will take months. Whether they have the patience to do that

:28:58.:29:00.

will be unclear. There are many more jobs at stake there. To summarise,

:29:01.:29:06.

as things stand, it would be hard to say that there is light at the end

:29:07.:29:10.

of the tunnel for Port Talbot? There will be people who would come

:29:11.:29:13.

forward to buy bits and pieces of the remaining Tata operation. There

:29:14.:29:19.

have been expressions of interests from Germany, from liberty group.

:29:20.:29:24.

People might want to buy it piecemeal. The idea of it staying

:29:25.:29:31.

and being sold in its current form is a little far-fetched at the

:29:32.:29:35.

moment. We will let you get on. A busy day for you.

:29:36.:29:38.

Joining me now is Roy Rickhuss - General Secretary of

:29:39.:29:40.

the Community Union which represent around a half

:29:41.:29:42.

You're going to see the Business Secretary Sajid Javid this

:29:43.:29:55.

afternoon. He is attending a meeting and we will be in attendance. That

:29:56.:30:02.

is why you are in London? I'm based in London but that is why I'm here.

:30:03.:30:06.

What would you like him to stay but he went to Mumbai last week, rather

:30:07.:30:10.

politically. We were there before and Matt representatives of the

:30:11.:30:15.

board to try to push them the turnaround plan not just for port

:30:16.:30:20.

Talbot but for the other business. We were disappointed, they chose not

:30:21.:30:24.

to support it and we are where we are. They will not go back on that

:30:25.:30:30.

position now. So the decision to sell their entire UK steel business,

:30:31.:30:34.

what is left after the news we heard this morning about Greybull Capital,

:30:35.:30:38.

we called on them to be responsible sellers. By that we mean the whole

:30:39.:30:46.

gambit, supporting the businesses, ensuring it is sold as a going

:30:47.:30:50.

concern. You would not want to be split up in a way that Simon

:30:51.:30:55.

suggested customer I'm not as pessimistic as Simon, I believe

:30:56.:30:59.

there is optimism. Looking at what happened in the last few weeks,

:31:00.:31:03.

we've started to build I think a head of steam that says the UK steel

:31:04.:31:06.

industry is not the basket that everyone makes it out to be. Not

:31:07.:31:10.

just good news today we're hearing, last week we also saw the sale of

:31:11.:31:16.

the two Scottish plants and we should not underestimate that

:31:17.:31:21.

achievement. That means that we can bring production back to Scotland,

:31:22.:31:27.

which was... But very small. About 400 jobs in total and then the

:31:28.:31:34.

supply chain. But it is the principal. Simon explain the

:31:35.:31:38.

difficulties of selling the business intact. And the timing

:31:39.:31:41.

considerations as well. What would you like the government to do to

:31:42.:31:47.

overcome these hurdles to assail customer that is the same as we

:31:48.:31:54.

passed from the government and asked Tata, to be responsible and if needs

:31:55.:31:56.

be the government may need to support the business through the

:31:57.:31:59.

process. Through the transition period. With that the temporary

:32:00.:32:04.

nationalisation in your view? That could be an option, I would not take

:32:05.:32:13.

any option off the table. I would refer to positive government

:32:14.:32:15.

intervention and that is what we called for all along. If the

:32:16.:32:18.

government can see the position where a buyer is in place, there has

:32:19.:32:22.

been expressions of interest, we need to get from that position to a

:32:23.:32:27.

successful conclusion and why should the government not support that

:32:28.:32:31.

process. I think there are signs coming out of government that there

:32:32.:32:34.

are more prepared now to consider that because obviously they hit are

:32:35.:32:38.

finally waking up to the point that this is a significant, fundamental

:32:39.:32:43.

industry to our country. You cannot have a successful and affection

:32:44.:32:48.

industry without a successful steel industry. If you were a prospective

:32:49.:32:53.

buyer or for example Tata, would you not be likely to have some have

:32:54.:33:00.

dashed to tough conditions for the government and say, you need to do

:33:01.:33:04.

something about energy prices for heavy energy intensive businesses,

:33:05.:33:08.

you need to do something about business rates, as well. And you

:33:09.:33:15.

need to do more about Chinese steel dumping in the EU. Would you not be

:33:16.:33:21.

likely to ask the government to do something on all of those fronts as

:33:22.:33:26.

a condition of sale? I do not know about condition of sale but they

:33:27.:33:29.

should do them anyway. We have been campaigning not just for a few

:33:30.:33:32.

months but for years on these issues. My union in particular

:33:33.:33:37.

helped working with the UK steel Association to put those demands

:33:38.:33:44.

together. Those demands went in front of government and I get

:33:45.:33:48.

frustrated because sometimes you hear men -- government minister

:33:49.:33:50.

saying we have done that but they have not. They made a start, I will

:33:51.:33:54.

give them that, on some of these issues. But they have not resolved

:33:55.:33:59.

to the industry's satisfaction, the issues you have raised. So anyone

:34:00.:34:04.

looking to invest in the UK steel industry absolutely will need

:34:05.:34:09.

confidence from the government that they will act on those issues. And

:34:10.:34:13.

we have not yet have that confidence from the government. They have been

:34:14.:34:18.

slow to move on energy prices, the energy costs for Tata are twice as

:34:19.:34:23.

high as those of Germany, business rates, the Chancellor did nothing

:34:24.:34:30.

about that in the budget. And on dumping we have barely managed 13%

:34:31.:34:35.

tariff when the Americans managed 266%. The government has been, and

:34:36.:34:44.

I'm pleased at the movement that has been made has been recognised by

:34:45.:34:48.

people in the industry and I understand from the steel industry

:34:49.:34:51.

point of view, they would like to have seen that go further and go

:34:52.:34:57.

faster. It is worth remembering we have been opposed over and over

:34:58.:35:00.

again for measures to bring about a reduction in energy costs because I

:35:01.:35:05.

think sometimes people look at these things in isolation. They think of

:35:06.:35:09.

energy policy and do not think of the implication for key British

:35:10.:35:15.

businesses. You have had six years to know the impact it has on heavy

:35:16.:35:18.

energy intensive businesses in the country and for six years, you

:35:19.:35:23.

inherited that from the last Labour government, you did not inherited,

:35:24.:35:29.

but then there was the carbon floor price, but you presided over energy

:35:30.:35:32.

costs for companies like Tata that are twice as expensive as those of

:35:33.:35:36.

Germany. The government is pushing in the right direction, that has

:35:37.:35:40.

been recognised. Like a lot of people I want to see that continue.

:35:41.:35:45.

And I think that we do need some kind of questions asked about the

:35:46.:35:51.

implications of energy policies on British businesses. It may be too

:35:52.:35:56.

late to ask questions, thousands of jobs are at stake. The French,

:35:57.:35:59.

Italians and Germans have been pushing to get road of, it is an

:36:00.:36:05.

arcane issue but known as the lesser duty rule which stops the European

:36:06.:36:10.

Union putting up really penal rates even in the face of dumping at which

:36:11.:36:14.

the Americans have been able to do. The British Government has opposed

:36:15.:36:22.

this, why? You would have to ask a government minister for their

:36:23.:36:25.

perspective. Chance would be a nice thing! My personal position, and

:36:26.:36:32.

this is a personal position, I'm not a great believer in trade tariffs.

:36:33.:36:41.

Even for dumping? I want to see the British steel industry successful.

:36:42.:36:45.

We already had talk about how it might adapt to be successful for the

:36:46.:36:51.

future. But in imposing tariffs, it does not ring down the cost of

:36:52.:36:56.

British Steel. The purpose of these kind of tariffs... People in the

:36:57.:37:01.

manufacturing industry are already scared about the cost of production

:37:02.:37:08.

and would be horrified... You cannot build an industry on the basis of

:37:09.:37:13.

dumped steel for a couple of years. In the past couple of years China

:37:14.:37:19.

has started to dumped steel and that is an easy definition, selling at

:37:20.:37:24.

below cost. Are you telling viewers this morning that even when they are

:37:25.:37:27.

clearly selling below cost, dumping, that they should not be penal

:37:28.:37:35.

tariffs? Tariffs pushed the cost of raw materials up, they do not bring

:37:36.:37:41.

the cost of other alternatives down. That was hit British manufacturing.

:37:42.:37:45.

You answered the question. I believe that tariffs are necessary and it

:37:46.:37:50.

seems to be the government has been found wanting and what their wanting

:37:51.:37:57.

is a hand in China pocket. Unfortunately British workers are

:37:58.:38:01.

paying the price. We have got to commit to British Steel through

:38:02.:38:05.

legislation, through the budget, and it seems to me it was only when the

:38:06.:38:10.

job of Sajid Javid was on the line that anyone cared. Come back to see

:38:11.:38:16.

it in a couple of months, will be see a smile on your face? I really

:38:17.:38:20.

believe so. I have every confidence in the industry. I believe that are

:38:21.:38:26.

still workers are the best in the world and I believe that we have

:38:27.:38:29.

never once asked for charity. We do not want charity. What we want is a

:38:30.:38:35.

fair and level playing field. And I hear this about putting on tariffs,

:38:36.:38:42.

pushing prices up, that was not always the case. Leading up to 2008

:38:43.:38:46.

the steel industry was a good place to be, everyone was making money,

:38:47.:38:49.

there was a lot of successful businesses. And still prices were

:38:50.:38:54.

higher than than they had ever been, you did not get this call from

:38:55.:38:58.

people saying we must lower still prices or we cannot make money. I

:38:59.:39:04.

will have a smile on my face. I hope you will come back and see us. Thank

:39:05.:39:05.

you. plenty happened over the recess and

:39:06.:39:19.

plenty more coming up to keep us all busy.

:39:20.:39:20.

Today the government starts sending its EU leaflet

:39:21.:39:22.

Leave campaigners are expected to press in the Commons for changes

:39:23.:39:30.

to the Finance Bill to secure an additional ?9 million in funding

:39:31.:39:34.

to compensate for the amount spent on the Government leaflet.

:39:35.:39:37.

While in the House of Lords peers are poised to force

:39:38.:39:40.

changes as the Housing Bill begins its report stages.

:39:41.:39:43.

Tomorrow, the new Work and Pensions Secretary,

:39:44.:39:45.

Stephen Crabb, delivers his first major speech since taking

:39:46.:39:48.

On Wednesday David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn square up

:39:49.:39:55.

in the House of Commons for their first PMQs

:39:56.:39:57.

Thursday marks the deadline for the Electoral Commission

:39:58.:40:06.

to make its final decision on the official designation of lead

:40:07.:40:09.

campaigners for each outcome at the EU referendum.

:40:10.:40:18.

And Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is expected to make a major

:40:19.:40:20.

And on Friday, the official regulated period for

:40:21.:40:32.

With all be poring over those rules to make sure we do not end up the

:40:33.:40:43.

wrong side of the Electoral Commission.

:40:44.:40:44.

We're joined now by Harry Cole of the Sun

:40:45.:40:46.

and Rowena Mason from the Guardian from College Green.

:40:47.:40:50.

What is the latest on tax returns, is the chance now going to give us

:40:51.:40:58.

tax return? We are seeing more of the joined up thinking from the

:40:59.:41:02.

government now that we were treated to last week. This morning if you

:41:03.:41:07.

woke up to the headlines, we were getting the tax return from George

:41:08.:41:10.

Osborne and then suddenly, we might not. And now the Prime Ministers

:41:11.:41:13.

ordered George Osborne to publish those so I think we will get them.

:41:14.:41:18.

It would be unfortunate if Jeremy Corbyn got to the summit of the

:41:19.:41:22.

first rail kit he had on the government and managed to shoot

:41:23.:41:25.

himself in the foot. But six days ago he said he was happy to publish

:41:26.:41:29.

his tax return and since then it is, he will publish it soon. There is

:41:30.:41:33.

speculation that if he has an accountant, they are having

:41:34.:41:35.

difficulty putting together the paperwork. My advice to him would be

:41:36.:41:40.

to get it right. Take the absolute shoe in he will get in Parliament if

:41:41.:41:46.

he has not publish it at the time he stands up and has a go at David

:41:47.:41:51.

Cameron. But if it is published and a slightly inaccurate I think that

:41:52.:41:57.

would be terrible and Woodley to questions over how he could run the

:41:58.:42:01.

country. Rowena, your newspaper has been playing a pivotal role in the

:42:02.:42:07.

Parma papers. What are you hearing on tax returns? The line this

:42:08.:42:12.

morning from the lobby briefing was that not only does the promise to

:42:13.:42:15.

think it is right that he publishes his own tax returns, but he wants

:42:16.:42:19.

the chance and respective candidates for both of those jobs to publish

:42:20.:42:23.

more information about their tax as well. What he is doing is drawing a

:42:24.:42:32.

clear line to stop MPs potentially having to release their tax returns,

:42:33.:42:35.

saying it is a matter for them. But anyone looking after the nation 's

:42:36.:42:42.

finances, and the opposition people in those roles, they should provide

:42:43.:42:45.

more information as David Cameron has done. The EU leaflet dropping on

:42:46.:42:52.

a doorstep near you soon. How angry are at the Tory Eurosceptics about

:42:53.:42:57.

this? The blowhard or already blowing pretty hard in the

:42:58.:43:01.

referendum campaign and this has poured petrol on the fire. We knew

:43:02.:43:06.

that there would be this kind of stunt, this leaflet was in the

:43:07.:43:09.

legislation that it was possible. But the way he went about it,

:43:10.:43:14.

sneaking about during an ongoing tax row, they're angry. And all kinds of

:43:15.:43:19.

hints that we might go back to the days of Maastricht where rebels were

:43:20.:43:26.

able to kind of grind the government business down to a halt. But

:43:27.:43:29.

government business is pretty much as anyway so I am not quite sure

:43:30.:43:33.

what they're planning. We have got the Electoral Commission having to

:43:34.:43:38.

choose who gets the money, who gets the official designation. One

:43:39.:43:43.

official leave and one official remain campaign. The interest is in

:43:44.:43:47.

who gets the league campaign. Remind us what the choice is and who you

:43:48.:43:53.

think will get it? I think most rags have to be on Vote Leave, the

:43:54.:43:58.

campaign being run by Matthew Elliott and Dominic Cummings. The

:43:59.:44:04.

politics associated with that, the Tory babies, people like Michael go.

:44:05.:44:08.

The other campaign is also interesting, it has close links to

:44:09.:44:16.

Ukip. Called grassroots out. Connected to the Ukip donor Arron

:44:17.:44:24.

Banks. It is very impressive how you have got all this in your mind! The

:44:25.:44:30.

thing about grassroots out, they help a lot of rallies around the

:44:31.:44:33.

country and they have a lot of the Ukip supporters behind them. One of

:44:34.:44:37.

the interesting things about the designation, it looks that

:44:38.:44:39.

grassroots support and that is one element that would be in their

:44:40.:44:42.

favour. But I still think it will be Vote Leave. Also things like

:44:43.:44:53.

financial probity and who the backers are. So no Panama account!

:44:54.:45:01.

Arron Banks denied he was anything to do with the Panama papers today.

:45:02.:45:07.

He is not Vote Leave! It is all one big mess. And finally, is Jeremy

:45:08.:45:14.

Corbyn speech on the EU, are we going to hear the background strains

:45:15.:45:23.

of the EU flag fluttering? Jeremy Corbyn is in favour of staying in

:45:24.:45:26.

the EU and made that clear all along. Not that clear! Some people

:45:27.:45:31.

would like him to show more passion and fire about wanting to stay in.

:45:32.:45:34.

We have been promised a very enthusiastic speech. We do not know

:45:35.:45:41.

where he's doing that but it will be remarkable to watch lifelong

:45:42.:45:45.

Eurosceptic wrap themselves in the blue and yellow flag. Whether he can

:45:46.:45:48.

do that convincingly and will take half his Shadow Cabinet with him,

:45:49.:45:53.

Diane Abbott back in the day, all strong Eurosceptics.

:45:54.:46:03.

The use of Sharia, or Islamic religious law,

:46:04.:46:05.

is growing in Britain, with thousands of Muslims using it

:46:06.:46:09.

to help resolve family and financial disputes each year.

:46:10.:46:17.

A new survey says that a quarter of UK Muslims would like to see sharia

:46:18.:46:27.

law be given more credence in British law.

:46:28.:46:32.

Their case is being taken up by crossbench peer Baroness Cox

:46:33.:46:35.

in her Private Member's Bill, aiming to make it illegal for Sharia

:46:36.:46:38.

courts to act as legal courts in arbitration cases.

:46:39.:46:40.

The government, however, doesn't think this is necessary.

:46:41.:46:42.

So we asked Baroness Cox to set out her case and take a turn

:46:43.:46:45.

In Britain, for 800 years, since the signing of Magna Carta,

:46:46.:46:50.

we have had a fundamental commitment to the principle of one law

:46:51.:46:54.

for all and equality of access to that law.

:46:55.:46:57.

I believe passionately in the freedom of religion and belief.

:46:58.:47:06.

But in Britain there is now a system of sharia councils or courts

:47:07.:47:10.

which inherently discriminate against women and girls in ways that

:47:11.:47:12.

are causing a great deal of suffering.

:47:13.:47:16.

This is a moral maze which we must navigate.

:47:17.:47:25.

For example, under sharia law and man can divorce his wife just

:47:26.:47:29.

by saying "I divorce you" three times.

:47:30.:47:34.

The woman often has to pay or to fulfil other

:47:35.:47:36.

conditions which may be very difficult for her.

:47:37.:47:38.

But sharia law allows polygamy, a man can have up to four wives.

:47:39.:47:47.

And one of my Muslim women friends who is doing research

:47:48.:47:50.

into the plight of Muslim woman in the West Midlands,

:47:51.:47:53.

told me how women sometimes married into polygamous marriages

:47:54.:47:56.

without even realising there was already another

:47:57.:47:59.

I had wept with many of these Muslim women when they told me how much

:48:00.:48:15.

One lady said to me, I feel betrayed by Britain.

:48:16.:48:20.

I came here to get away from this, it is worse

:48:21.:48:23.

here than in the country I came from.

:48:24.:48:25.

Their suffering would be making our suffragettes

:48:26.:48:27.

We must not get caught in a labyrinth of inaction,

:48:28.:48:35.

because we are afraid of upsetting cultural sensitivities,

:48:36.:48:39.

It is high time that we made sure that we do uphold

:48:40.:48:45.

the principle of one law for all, of equality of access to that law,

:48:46.:48:50.

and we end the kind of discrimination that is causing

:48:51.:48:53.

so much suffering too many girls and women in our country today.

:48:54.:49:01.

We're also joined by Yasmin Khan, director of the Halo Project -

:49:02.:49:08.

a charity that helps women victims of domestic violence and forced

:49:09.:49:11.

The baroness is wanting to help the kind of women that your organisation

:49:12.:49:29.

is hoping to help. But you are opposed to that. I am accepting that

:49:30.:49:35.

there are problems within the sharia system. But if you look at the

:49:36.:49:42.

number of people who used the sharia Council, 80% of those are women. I

:49:43.:49:49.

welcome new legislation such as the criminalisation of forced marriage,

:49:50.:49:54.

introduced in 2014, we need to be very careful about understanding.

:49:55.:49:58.

There is a misconception about what this law suggests. It is very clear

:49:59.:50:03.

that the law of the land be applied and that should overrule. The law of

:50:04.:50:09.

the land should always be above sharia law? Muslims are expected to

:50:10.:50:15.

abide by the law of the land. Do we have evidence that the women are

:50:16.:50:20.

using sharia law because it is a conscious choice or because they

:50:21.:50:25.

feel that the norms and pressures in their community forced them to go

:50:26.:50:29.

that way? They have at the moment the flexibility to use both. There

:50:30.:50:35.

are laws that protect them. There are movements within the sharia

:50:36.:50:40.

councils to work progressively and modernise and regulate some systems.

:50:41.:50:45.

We should be working with them, not against them and introducing new law

:50:46.:50:51.

when it is unnecessary for stop I believe in freedom of religion and

:50:52.:50:55.

the right of women to access the kind of courts and council that they

:50:56.:51:00.

wish. It must be genuine and not through ignorance. I found that many

:51:01.:51:09.

women didn't know the options. They didn't know that an Islamic marriage

:51:10.:51:14.

wasn't legally registered in this country. They have no rights

:51:15.:51:19.

whatsoever. It was a cry from them for knowledge and a cry from the

:51:20.:51:24.

heart for them for freedom from divesting violence. This was not the

:51:25.:51:30.

context which allows policies and principles and actions that are

:51:31.:51:34.

incompatible with the values and laws of our land. Is domestic file

:51:35.:51:39.

is allowed under sharia law? It is not. -- domestic violence. We must

:51:40.:51:49.

not marginalised communities, we must work with them and understand

:51:50.:51:57.

them. Does sharia law allow for domestic violence? It allows

:51:58.:52:03.

chastisement and that is used in many cases. It is important to

:52:04.:52:15.

understand the number of and women who use sharia councils. I am not

:52:16.:52:23.

here to comment on that. You are. And I am asking you to comment. It

:52:24.:52:30.

allows freedom and it allows certainty. I'm saying that we need

:52:31.:52:38.

more dialogue to help all people, especially Muslim women. This is

:52:39.:52:45.

very interesting, isn't it? My heart sinks when a Muslim woman comes into

:52:46.:52:51.

my surgery and thinks she has rights and hands me the papers for an

:52:52.:52:57.

Islamic marriage and not a British legal marriage, my heart sinks. I

:52:58.:53:01.

have been through lots of issues regarding custody and people

:53:02.:53:07.

escaping domestic violence within the cost -- context of sharia law.

:53:08.:53:17.

We are in danger of portraying domestic violence as being more

:53:18.:53:20.

prolific in the Muslim community. That is simply not the case. It is

:53:21.:53:29.

everywhere. What is your point? If sharia law this grim and -- if

:53:30.:53:38.

sharia law discriminates against women in any way, it should be

:53:39.:53:45.

stopped. I agree that the law definitely needs to be changed and

:53:46.:53:51.

we are already working and looking at changing and reforming. That is

:53:52.:53:58.

the focus I want to look at. I am suggesting we look with local

:53:59.:54:03.

communities and see how you can modernise the councils that

:54:04.:54:06.

currently operate. This probably won't get through the Commons. Not

:54:07.:54:11.

this time. But we hope that next time it will start in the Commons.

:54:12.:54:13.

Thank you for joining me. Another months of riding high

:54:14.:54:21.

in the Republican race, last week the New York businessman

:54:22.:54:28.

lost the Wisconsin primary And things aren't looking good

:54:29.:54:30.

for the Hillary Clinton either, who also just lost to Bernie Sanders

:54:31.:54:36.

in the recent primary. I am finding it hard to keep count

:54:37.:54:48.

of the primary she has lost recently.

:54:49.:54:55.

from Bloomberg in our Washington Bureau.

:54:56.:55:00.

Is it likely that we will have a contested convention for the

:55:01.:55:10.

Republicans? It seems quite likely. We have seen that over the weekend

:55:11.:55:15.

Donald Trump has been struggling in Colorado, failing to secure a single

:55:16.:55:20.

delegate from that state. The arithmetic is getting more difficult

:55:21.:55:25.

for him to get to the 1237. He needs to secure the nomination outright

:55:26.:55:31.

before Cleveland. The last really contest and one was in 1952. There

:55:32.:55:44.

was a bit of one in 1976. 1952 in Chicago, Ike emerged. People thought

:55:45.:55:51.

it was going to be Senator Taft. I right in thinking that by the second

:55:52.:55:56.

ballot people can go whichever way they please? This is the crazy

:55:57.:56:02.

thing. Every state has different rules. You need experience to get

:56:03.:56:06.

through this. Certain delegates are an bound going in. As you said, in

:56:07.:56:11.

the first ballot most people have two vote the way their primaries and

:56:12.:56:16.

caucuses turned out but after that, if nobody can get to 1237, it is a

:56:17.:56:22.

free for all with people going for their preference and they are

:56:23.:56:25.

technically an bound. That is why you see this man-to-man delegate.

:56:26.:56:30.

Ted Cruz has an advantage in this. He is stocking the slate for each

:56:31.:56:36.

state with people who will be loyal to him. For if we get to subsequent

:56:37.:56:43.

ballots are around the world. I wasn't there in 1952... I can see

:56:44.:56:52.

that! Although Mrs Clinton has the arithmetic with her, she is losing a

:56:53.:56:55.

lot of the primaries to Bernie Sanders. He has a great fight in

:56:56.:57:03.

him. What does it tell others about her candidacy? She's not sweeping

:57:04.:57:10.

all before her. She does have a moment and then fuse jazz gap

:57:11.:57:14.

compared to the Vermont senator. He wants to use this to push home his

:57:15.:57:26.

issue, appealing to the progressive side of the party. It is to push her

:57:27.:57:34.

to see what she will do to address those issues. She is definitely

:57:35.:57:40.

showing weakness. This, for the Republicans, is something that they

:57:41.:57:43.

are going to seize upon. If she can't even beat Bernie Sanders and

:57:44.:57:48.

secure these big state, what does it say about her chances in a general

:57:49.:57:52.

election? That is what they are using this exercise for. Is there

:57:53.:57:56.

any chance that the Attorney General would take action against Mrs

:57:57.:58:05.

Clinton? President Obama address this over the weekend. He said any

:58:06.:58:11.

decision on her e-mail would be neutral. There will be no political

:58:12.:58:17.

influence to this decision. Really? That is where we are at at the time.

:58:18.:58:23.

That is what the president says. Thank you for marking our card.

:58:24.:58:28.

Before we go, why did Carol Thatcher not want the statue to go up in

:58:29.:58:33.

Parliament Square? What it was made of. The hairdo? It looked like Meryl

:58:34.:58:43.

Streep? Because of the handbag? There we go. It was the handbag.

:58:44.:58:50.

That's it. The one o'clock News is starting on BBC One. The daily

:58:51.:58:53.

politics will be back at noon tomorrow with all the big political

:58:54.:58:58.

stories of the day. Probably, tax again. Goodbye.

:58:59.:59:03.

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