12/04/2016 Daily Politics


12/04/2016

Political news and debate with Jo Coburn and guest, former work and pensions minister, Esther McVey. They discuss welfare, the steel crisis and the government's pro-EU leaflets.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 12/04/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:39.

After the Business Secretary Sajid Javid says

:00:40.:00:40.

the Government is willing to co-invest in the Port Talbot

:00:41.:00:43.

steelworks to keep it open, MPs hold an emergency debate

:00:44.:00:47.

on the crisis facing the UK's steel industry.

:00:48.:00:52.

as the new Work and Pensions Secretary.

:00:53.:00:55.

We'll assess the challenges he faces on welfare reform.

:00:56.:01:01.

The Government's ?9 million pro-EU leaflet

:01:02.:01:03.

starts dropping through letterboxes across the UK - and provokes

:01:04.:01:07.

a wave of hostility on the Conservative backbenches.

:01:08.:01:12.

And the most unlikely star of musical theatre - Jeremy Corbyn.

:01:13.:01:16.

We take a peak at Corbyn The Musical, which opens tonight.

:01:17.:01:28.

# I didn't sell out, I didn't live in

:01:29.:01:33.

# You need a hero, you got Corbin #. All that in the next hour

:01:34.:01:39.

and with us for the whole of the programme today is the former

:01:40.:01:42.

Conservative MP and Work What's life like on the outside?

:01:43.:01:55.

It's not quite 24/7, seven days a week, so slightly more time back to

:01:56.:01:58.

myself, but pursuing things that I want to do with a view, which I've

:01:59.:02:03.

always said, to go back into the housing 2020. Obviously I love

:02:04.:02:06.

place. You must've been surprised at the time. There can't have been much

:02:07.:02:10.

time to plan for life outside because this was a night when the

:02:11.:02:13.

Tories, your party, did better than most people expected but you lost

:02:14.:02:19.

your seat. It wasn't a surprise. If you followed the Merseyside

:02:20.:02:22.

election, the fact that it's taken me ten years to win their... It was

:02:23.:02:26.

always going to be a difficult seat for a Conservative minister to win

:02:27.:02:30.

on Merseyside. But interestingly, I did actually increased my vote by to

:02:31.:02:35.

present from when I won in 2010. I got 2000 extra votes. So it was

:02:36.:02:40.

interesting, the tactics that Labour used both in rural western Chester,

:02:41.:02:44.

the only two seats they won, and that was that the Greens aligned and

:02:45.:02:48.

did a deal with Labour not to stand in Wirral West, otherwise I would

:02:49.:02:52.

have won because I would have taken 3%. It was a couple of hundred

:02:53.:02:56.

votes. It was very, very close because it went to a recount or sub

:02:57.:03:00.

I think you asked for a recount on the night. I didn't ask but it did

:03:01.:03:05.

go because it was so close. We won actually on the vote but it was the

:03:06.:03:08.

flood of postal votes that came in that changed it and hence there was

:03:09.:03:13.

a recount. You must be missing the place if you want to be involved

:03:14.:03:19.

again in politics? I said on the night that I wanted to come back.

:03:20.:03:24.

There I was, part of the government that had delivered 2 million more

:03:25.:03:29.

people into work, part of their team and I'd had a wonderful time there.

:03:30.:03:33.

I'd taken ten years to get into politics because I wanted to go back

:03:34.:03:39.

to my home turf, Merseyside, which, for anybody, is a tough place to be,

:03:40.:03:44.

but you got to love the area, love the place, so yes I do aim to be

:03:45.:03:48.

back in 2020 but it's a long journey and a tough journey so we'll see

:03:49.:03:52.

what happens. In the meantime? Taking up most of my time at the

:03:53.:03:56.

moment is an organisation that I'm working with with the British

:03:57.:04:00.

Transport Police authority and I work with inner-city children on

:04:01.:04:04.

careers, an role models, on how to get their foot in the door, so

:04:05.:04:08.

supporting people with career options and that is something I've

:04:09.:04:12.

done for 15 years and I'm able to carry that on. It's good to have you

:04:13.:04:16.

here, Esther McVey, and we'll talk more about your previous brief.

:04:17.:04:19.

And today we're giving you a different kind of teaser -

:04:20.:04:23.

I said to him he didn't write off the mortgage of the won the

:04:24.:04:32.

taxpayers were helping to pay for at Oxford.

:04:33.:04:33.

I didn't receive a proper answer then.

:04:34.:04:35.

That was the Labour MP Dennis Skinner speaking in the House

:04:36.:04:41.

At the end of the show Esther will, I'm sure, give us the correct

:04:42.:04:48.

In the next hour, MPs will begin an emergency debate

:04:49.:04:52.

on the UK steel industry, after Tata Steel announced a month

:04:53.:04:55.

ago that they would be selling their UK plants.

:04:56.:04:58.

Yesterday, the company confirmed the sale of its Scunthorpe plant

:04:59.:05:02.

to Greybull Capital for a token ?1, and the Business Secretary

:05:03.:05:05.

Sajid Javid told the Commons that the Government was working very

:05:06.:05:09.

hard to find a buyer for the Port Talbot

:05:10.:05:11.

Among options being considered, he said, was the possibility

:05:12.:05:16.

of co-investing with a buyer on commercial terms.

:05:17.:05:27.

Last month, Tata announced its intention to sell the plant

:05:28.:05:29.

and its wider UK assets, rather than to close it.

:05:30.:05:31.

Since then, I have continued to meet with its executives

:05:32.:05:34.

I've been joined in this by my right honourable friend the Secretary

:05:35.:05:38.

of State for Wales and my right honourable friend

:05:39.:05:40.

And we've secured assurances that Tata will be a responsible seller

:05:41.:05:43.

and will allow appropriate time to find a buyer.

:05:44.:05:47.

The formal sales process begins today.

:05:48.:05:50.

I've been in contact with potential buyers,

:05:51.:05:53.

making clear that the Government stands ready to help.

:05:54.:05:56.

This includes looking at the possibility of co-investing

:05:57.:06:00.

We've been joined from Central Lobby in the Houses of Parliament

:06:01.:06:06.

The Port Talbot steelworks are in his constituency.

:06:07.:06:11.

And we did ask the Department for Business for an interview

:06:12.:06:14.

with a minister about this, but none was available.

:06:15.:06:21.

Stephen Kinnock, watched you make of Sajid Javid's statement yesterday?

:06:22.:06:27.

Were you surprised by his suggestion of co-investing in the Port Talbot

:06:28.:06:31.

plant? Well, it left more questions than answers. I think we need

:06:32.:06:36.

clarity on what that means. We pushed the Secretary of State in the

:06:37.:06:39.

debate for more clarity and it didn't really come. I think we

:06:40.:06:43.

should just be absolutely clear that we need to do everything that we can

:06:44.:06:47.

now to get a good buyer for the business but if that doesn't work,

:06:48.:06:51.

the Government has to be ready to step in with a time bound, costed

:06:52.:06:56.

nationalisation, just to ensure that enough time is in place for a good

:06:57.:07:01.

buyer to come forward. What does co-investment mean to you, then? Is

:07:02.:07:05.

that really fulfilling some of the objectives that you've just ate it?

:07:06.:07:09.

There would perhaps be some time bound investment by the government

:07:10.:07:11.

until either a full-scale buyer could be found or, at least, it was

:07:12.:07:17.

becoming profitable again? There's a range of actions they can take, from

:07:18.:07:21.

giving a soft loan to Tata Steel to helping with energy cost, with our

:07:22.:07:26.

rent D, even to stepping on the pension. -- with research and

:07:27.:07:30.

develop. This lack of clarity is not helping the sales process. We need

:07:31.:07:34.

to ensure that we maximise the attractiveness of the deal for

:07:35.:07:37.

potential buyers and the shambolic approach that we've seen from the

:07:38.:07:41.

Government so far was compounded yesterday by what the Business

:07:42.:07:46.

Secretary said. We need that clarity and in the debate today we need to

:07:47.:07:49.

see a really clear statement. What does he mean by co-investment? What

:07:50.:07:53.

is the Government prepared to do? What is it not prepared to do?

:07:54.:07:56.

Potential buyers out there need to know and the customer base that they

:07:57.:08:00.

currently have for the Tata Steel business really needs to know. How

:08:01.:08:04.

long do you think this process can go on for, this search for a buyer?

:08:05.:08:08.

There will come a point, weren't there, when Tata will say it's

:08:09.:08:12.

enough? My understanding is that they are offering two blocks of

:08:13.:08:16.

eight weeks now, so a total 16 week process with expressions of interest

:08:17.:08:19.

in the first period and then Judah the gems on preferred buyers in the

:08:20.:08:24.

second. If you look at the sale of Long kart product in Scunthorpe,

:08:25.:08:27.

that took nine months at least from end to end. This 16 week process is

:08:28.:08:32.

very tight and one of the reasons it is so tight is because the

:08:33.:08:35.

government has been asleep at the wheel and has been having the

:08:36.:08:38.

conversation is an advance that it should have been having, knowing

:08:39.:08:41.

that a possible so was coming. Sajid Javid should have been with me in

:08:42.:08:46.

Mumbai. Instead, he was jetting off to Australia, so I think that shows

:08:47.:08:49.

the priorities were not right and they have been asleep at the wheel.

:08:50.:08:54.

But it did come as a bolt out of the blue. Nobody was expecting the

:08:55.:08:58.

announcement from Tata Steel. Well, hang on. Yesterday sided Davitt said

:08:59.:09:03.

both the all-party group and in the debate that he was one that

:09:04.:09:05.

persuaded Tata Steel not to close but to go for a sale. -- Sajid Javid

:09:06.:09:11.

said. How can he say that it came as a bolt out of the blue and then try

:09:12.:09:15.

to claim the credit for something yesterday, waste on long-term

:09:16.:09:18.

negotiations? Something in this just doesn't add up. But what's also

:09:19.:09:22.

worrying is that I pressed the Secretary of State yesterday. What

:09:23.:09:29.

is he doing to daughter Nissan, Jaguar Land Rover, Honda, the key

:09:30.:09:32.

customer base that is the lifeblood of the Port Talbot steelworks and

:09:33.:09:34.

all of the steelworks across the country? The answer was very

:09:35.:09:39.

wishy-washy. He needs to pick up the phone and start reassuring that

:09:40.:09:41.

customer base and his lack of action on that was very worrying. But how

:09:42.:09:46.

do you make this industry appear more attractive, as you said? How do

:09:47.:09:50.

you make it attractive to a potential buyer if, in the

:09:51.:09:54.

long-term, it's just not going to be viable? What evidence do you have

:09:55.:09:58.

that it will ever be viable if there was going to be a continuation of

:09:59.:10:02.

cheap Chinese steel imports? On the cheap imports, what we also need is

:10:03.:10:05.

a government that is prepared to stand up. The, rather than roll out

:10:06.:10:09.

the red carpet for Beijing. They have been blocking the European

:10:10.:10:12.

Commission's attempts to make anti-dumping measures more

:10:13.:10:15.

effective, so there is one big problem there. The trading... There

:10:16.:10:20.

isn't a level playing field and that's because the British

:10:21.:10:24.

Government have been blocking that. But in the broader picture, steel is

:10:25.:10:27.

a cyclical industry. If you look at the weakness of the pound, that's

:10:28.:10:30.

already helping the numbers to go on the right direction for the British

:10:31.:10:35.

Steel industry. The energy intensive industries compensation package is

:10:36.:10:39.

also helping. So this ?1 million a day figure that gets bandied around

:10:40.:10:42.

is no longer the case. We're moving in the right direction. We've got a

:10:43.:10:46.

fantastic workforce, making the best steel that money can buy. We've just

:10:47.:10:50.

got to back the industry, give it a level playing field, a chance to

:10:51.:10:56.

compete, and it will. If you talk to customers like Jaguar Land Rover,

:10:57.:10:58.

Honda, Nissan, they are getting the best service and the best product

:10:59.:11:00.

money can buy but we need the Government to help in an -- step in

:11:01.:11:04.

and make that happen. Has the Government been asleep at the wheel?

:11:05.:11:08.

Did Sajid Javid not do enough, early enough, to stop this happening? From

:11:09.:11:12.

what I know about Sajid Javid, he's a very shrewd operator and if he

:11:13.:11:17.

says that it was a surprise what was announced in Mumbai... Cos, yes, he

:11:18.:11:21.

had been dealing... Should he have been there? That's for him to

:11:22.:11:25.

decide. I don't know what he was doing in Australia that could have

:11:26.:11:27.

been bringing in work to the country. But I think it's important

:11:28.:11:33.

that those words are vague to a degree, and I'll tell you why. He's

:11:34.:11:36.

got to be very careful that Europe doesn't intervene, say this is state

:11:37.:11:41.

aid and then rule out a deal, so the fact that he's said co-ownership on

:11:42.:11:45.

a commercial basis... He has got to say those things. The fact that he

:11:46.:11:49.

will be on the phone constantly, saying who is interest rate? What

:11:50.:11:53.

can we do? And keeping those words vague to attract as many people as

:11:54.:11:57.

possible. Should this steelworks be saved, what may, because it's such

:11:58.:12:02.

an important part of our manufacturing? What you do whenever

:12:03.:12:06.

you go into any deal is say, how do we make it work? What are the things

:12:07.:12:10.

we need? We need something for the local community, something for the

:12:11.:12:13.

industry, we need to make sure it is workable, and how do we get the best

:12:14.:12:18.

deal for everyone? That is the Government, taxpayers, all of the

:12:19.:12:22.

supply chain, whether it's the car industry, British Aerospace, but

:12:23.:12:31.

first and foremost you think, what do we do to stabilise the situation?

:12:32.:12:34.

What do we do to attract as many people as possible to want to buy

:12:35.:12:37.

this and go forward? Should they do something about pension liability?

:12:38.:12:39.

Should they be doing more, the Government, to bring down energy

:12:40.:12:41.

costs, which is what labour and the industry have been calling for?

:12:42.:12:45.

There are many layers to that. The 2008 climate change but was brought

:12:46.:12:49.

in, which is now making these energy bills so onerous, that Labour

:12:50.:12:54.

brought in, because was looking at climate change. You have to look at

:12:55.:12:59.

flexible to. You have to look at tariffs. We can't have Chinese

:13:00.:13:03.

dumping cheap steel in the UK. Should there be tariffs put on

:13:04.:13:06.

Chinese imports? I think that's something we have to look at, as we

:13:07.:13:09.

look at the flexibility for everything. Stephen Cain, Labour has

:13:10.:13:13.

called for this debate. What more are you hoping to achieve? --

:13:14.:13:18.

Stephen Kinnock. We are looking for clarity on what co-investment means.

:13:19.:13:21.

We are looking for a proper U-turn on this position on anti-dumping is

:13:22.:13:25.

the Government simply hasn't done enough on that, and we're looking

:13:26.:13:30.

for a real extension of support to Tata steel to get them beyond this

:13:31.:13:34.

16 week period, because I don't think that it's long enough. What we

:13:35.:13:38.

need really, overall, is a sense that the Government is actually

:13:39.:13:41.

stepping up to the plate and standing up for British Steel,

:13:42.:13:43.

rather than rolling out the red carpet for Beijing. Stephen Kinnock,

:13:44.:13:45.

thank you. Now, Work and Pensions

:13:46.:13:48.

Secretary Stephen Crabb will give his first major speech

:13:49.:13:49.

in the job this afternoon. He took over from Iain Duncan Smith,

:13:50.:13:52.

who resigned over proposals in the Budget to cut the personal

:13:53.:13:55.

independence payment What are the main issue Stephen

:13:56.:14:04.

Crabb has to deal within his new role?

:14:05.:14:07.

The new Work and Pensions Secretary has already

:14:08.:14:09.

dealt with one major issue at the top of his in-tray.

:14:10.:14:11.

Last month he confirmed that controversial disability cuts

:14:12.:14:13.

to personal independence payments would be scrapped.

:14:14.:14:15.

That leaves a ?4.4 billion hole in the budget -

:14:16.:14:17.

but will he resist more cuts to welfare?

:14:18.:14:21.

Then there's Universal Credit - his predeccessor Iain Duncan Smith's

:14:22.:14:24.

The project aims to streamline existing working-age benefits

:14:25.:14:29.

into a single monthly payment - but it is six years behind schedule.

:14:30.:14:34.

And critics say "salami slicing" of the project leaves it at risk

:14:35.:14:38.

of failing to achieve its key aim of incentivising people into work.

:14:39.:14:44.

Crabb is expected to use his first speech today to outline

:14:45.:14:48.

plans to tackle "the root causes of poverty".

:14:49.:14:52.

But does this mean further changes to the welfare system?

:14:53.:14:56.

I'm joined by Owen Smith, Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary.

:14:57.:15:04.

Before I come to you, Esther, do you share the concerns of Iain Duncan

:15:05.:15:14.

Smith around salami slicing? Has it been cut too much? What we are

:15:15.:15:18.

looking at is the juxtaposition between what all the changes are. I

:15:19.:15:23.

think that is the right position. How can you have extra taxes for

:15:24.:15:28.

some people and benefit cuts for others. What is affordable for the

:15:29.:15:33.

whole country? Other departments are looking for money. Whether it was

:15:34.:15:38.

the Department of Health wanting more money, transport, the arts, you

:15:39.:15:42.

have got to say how do we get the best deal for those people looking

:15:43.:15:49.

at the budget? In the context of the budget, George Osborne was wrong for

:15:50.:15:57.

more money to be taken from the welfare budget when tax breaks were

:15:58.:16:02.

given to better off people, do you think? He stated clearly in the

:16:03.:16:06.

manifesto going into the election which people voted on and delivered

:16:07.:16:09.

a Conservative government on, they knew there were going to be these

:16:10.:16:15.

changes to the benefit system. Actually, the government and the

:16:16.:16:19.

country voted on that and elected a Conservative government on the back

:16:20.:16:23.

of that. You said you didn't think it was fair in that overall

:16:24.:16:28.

envelope, the juxtaposition, was the word you used, making more cuts to

:16:29.:16:33.

some disabled payments when as you said in the manifesto it said there

:16:34.:16:38.

were going to be tax breaks. Was Iain Duncan Smith right? Then the

:16:39.:16:43.

government came back and said, actually, hence you had George

:16:44.:16:47.

Osborne and Stephen Crabb coming to the house and saying we are going to

:16:48.:16:52.

relook at this. We have changed our mind. That is how democracy works,

:16:53.:16:59.

how grown-ups were, they had the strength of character to come

:17:00.:17:02.

forward and say we are going to change those things but be mindful

:17:03.:17:07.

of the fact that country had only just voted in a government on those

:17:08.:17:10.

pledges that they had put forward merely months before. Grown-up

:17:11.:17:15.

politics by the government? They made a mistake, they said, and they

:17:16.:17:21.

changed it. They changed it in respect of the PIP cuts, and that is

:17:22.:17:25.

very welcome and that is largely because of the fast we made of it.

:17:26.:17:33.

And Iain Duncan Smith's resignation? If he had really been concerned

:17:34.:17:38.

about the plight of disabled people, he could have resigned on many

:17:39.:17:42.

different occasions. He put through millions of pounds of cuts for

:17:43.:17:46.

disabled people. Esther is right that the Tory party said they were

:17:47.:17:54.

going to cut ?12 billion for disabled people, they didn't say

:17:55.:17:57.

they were going to cut universal credit for people out of work, 10

:17:58.:18:02.

billion coming from them, the other big losers have been the disabled

:18:03.:18:06.

and I don't think that was clear to the country. Nor have they succeeded

:18:07.:18:10.

in getting down welfare spending, it has gone up under the Tories. Did

:18:11.:18:17.

you know where those cuts were going to be? We couldn't get any minister

:18:18.:18:21.

to say where the axe would fall. Did you know? You wouldn't know. That is

:18:22.:18:27.

when you come forward with all of the plans. I wouldn't and I didn't

:18:28.:18:32.

know the specifics on that. Did you ever feel under pressure? Iain

:18:33.:18:38.

Duncan Smith said, too often my team have been pressured to make cuts.

:18:39.:18:44.

What you do at a time when there are more outgoings than there is money

:18:45.:18:49.

coming into the country, like in any business, household, government, you

:18:50.:18:55.

say, how can we make our budget work? Every department, including

:18:56.:19:01.

DWP, would have been asked what the options were to get the spending

:19:02.:19:04.

down. You would have looked at where the money was needed into the

:19:05.:19:10.

support. We got 2 million people extra people into work when I was

:19:11.:19:13.

working there. Where you ever pressured as part of that team to

:19:14.:19:20.

make cuts to working age benefits? Pressured? You say, what are the

:19:21.:19:24.

options and the whole team sets about giving a whole array of

:19:25.:19:28.

options. Some of these you would say, these make the numbers work but

:19:29.:19:33.

we don't want to do these. Right the way across to what you can do. Every

:19:34.:19:38.

department would have done that and every department would be

:19:39.:19:42.

challenging for more money. Health, transport, education, you have to

:19:43.:19:47.

sit in there and justify your stance. Iain Duncan Smith did

:19:48.:19:51.

incredibly well for the duration you was there, fighting on behalf of

:19:52.:20:01.

disabled and unemployed people to get the best deal. Remember, we were

:20:02.:20:04.

left as a government without any money, as we so well know. Do you

:20:05.:20:07.

think people would trust a Labour government under Jeremy Corbyn to

:20:08.:20:12.

tackle the welfare budget? Yes because we would tackle the

:20:13.:20:17.

underlying problems. Low wages, high rents, inability to get into decent

:20:18.:20:26.

jobs. The living wages coming in. But it will not offset the cuts for

:20:27.:20:36.

low paid people brought by cuts in tax universal credit. It is going to

:20:37.:20:43.

offset by five times any uplift for a full-time worker on the new

:20:44.:20:51.

national living wage. So you wouldn't support any cuts? You would

:20:52.:20:54.

look at the underlying causes of poverty. I certainly wouldn't be

:20:55.:20:59.

cutting the budget for disabled people. I would be reversing the

:21:00.:21:06.

bedroom tax. That has been a pernicious and discriminatory policy

:21:07.:21:09.

and I would be looking to make work pay in this country and get back to

:21:10.:21:13.

the fundamentals that universal credit was meant to address and has

:21:14.:21:18.

been undermined by the cuts. It is revealing that Esther, a minister in

:21:19.:21:23.

the DWP, didn't know that ?12 million of cuts were going to fall

:21:24.:21:28.

on working people and the disabled. I am incredulous that she didn't

:21:29.:21:35.

know that. What do you say to that? You know how budgets are done and

:21:36.:21:41.

you go forward with a whole array... You go forward with a whole array of

:21:42.:21:46.

ways which you are going to do that. Obviously, that was in the budget

:21:47.:21:49.

the year later, what was going to happen. Can I just say that what we

:21:50.:21:58.

did the entire time was balance up the support that went people to get

:21:59.:22:04.

into a job. You said it was a mistake to make the cuts that were

:22:05.:22:08.

proposed by George Osborne into disability benefit. The budget was

:22:09.:22:15.

always going up, the only difference was in the rate. It was just not

:22:16.:22:23.

increasing at the rate it was. I listen to the words that are bandied

:22:24.:22:26.

about carelessly, that wasn't what happened. Looking at universal

:22:27.:22:33.

credit, can still work? What they are setting out, what they are

:22:34.:22:38.

intending to do, yes. This will be Stephen Crabb's position to go

:22:39.:22:44.

forward and make sure it works. The whole narrative and motivation to

:22:45.:22:53.

get people back in work. It is six years behind schedule and it no

:22:54.:22:59.

longer incentivise is people to find work. The Office for Budget

:23:00.:23:02.

Responsibility has significant concerns about the scheme. It feels

:23:03.:23:06.

like a fell project before it has got underway. It was always a very

:23:07.:23:12.

slow roll-out and started at the end of the last parliament. It is not

:23:13.:23:17.

six years behind. The premise of what it is about, how it is going to

:23:18.:23:21.

be rolled out, obviously, the combinations of different people's

:23:22.:23:26.

lies, has to be worked through. You are confident it is going to be

:23:27.:23:31.

rolled out in the way you envisaged under Stephen Crabb? I am not there

:23:32.:23:44.

now, ... You have an expertise. You would need the people involved to

:23:45.:23:49.

explain where it is going. Do you think it will happen? I hope that it

:23:50.:23:55.

does and I will be cheering on Stephen Crabb all the way. You have

:23:56.:24:02.

root and branch review of universal credit. What does that mean? I went

:24:03.:24:10.

to old, at the heart of the biggest experiment, 30,000 people have been

:24:11.:24:14.

an universal credit for a while. It is clear that, talking to people on

:24:15.:24:21.

it, it is not working. The system is not perfect by any means. But it is

:24:22.:24:27.

a good idea. I fundamentally support the notion that you simplify and get

:24:28.:24:31.

rid of disincentives. The problem is, it was meant to be a better

:24:32.:24:36.

resourced system than the current one. It was meant to be ?2 billion

:24:37.:24:41.

more generous than what we had. It is now ?5 billion less generous.

:24:42.:24:49.

They got rid of some of the cliff edges, at 16 weeks for example, but

:24:50.:24:55.

anybody... 16 hours, rather than weeks. There is always going to be

:24:56.:25:03.

imperfections. They have got rid of some minor problems around 16 hours

:25:04.:25:08.

but everybody is going to be worse off, on average, ?1500 per year

:25:09.:25:12.

worse. Single mothers in particular are going to be even bigger, 2.5

:25:13.:25:27.

?3000 worse off per year. Iain Duncan Smith said some cuts would

:25:28.:25:32.

the justified if they could protect some pension benefits? He is wrong

:25:33.:25:38.

to say that the Labour government didn't do even more than they

:25:39.:25:45.

proposed. It is a false choice. There are other ways we can improve

:25:46.:25:51.

the system. They didn't have to take the decision to cut corporation tax,

:25:52.:25:56.

cut capital gains tax, those things cost billions of pounds and they

:25:57.:26:00.

could make different decisions. Instead, they can't yet say, PIP and

:26:01.:26:04.

it tells you everything you need to know about their priorities. Stay

:26:05.:26:12.

with us. The tax returns of our leaders have been put under the

:26:13.:26:16.

microscope. The Chancellor and Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn released

:26:17.:26:20.

their tax returns yesterday just as Jeremy Cameron -- just as David

:26:21.:26:28.

Cameron faced Parliament for the first time since the Panama papers

:26:29.:26:29.

were published. Mr Speaker, I accept

:26:30.:26:32.

all of the criticisms for not responding more quickly to these

:26:33.:26:34.

issues last week. But as I said, I was angry about

:26:35.:26:36.

the way my father's memory was being We should think carefully before

:26:37.:26:40.

abandoning completely all taxpayer confidentiality in this

:26:41.:26:43.

House, as some have suggested. If this were to come

:26:44.:26:45.

in for MPs, people would also ask for a similar

:26:46.:26:47.

approach for those who ask us questions, those who run large

:26:48.:26:50.

public services or lead local government or, indeed, those

:26:51.:26:53.

who edit the news programmes or The Prime Minister has attacked tax

:26:54.:26:55.

dodging as immoral but he clearly failed to

:26:56.:27:00.

give a full account of his own involvement

:27:01.:27:03.

in offshore tax havens until this week,

:27:04.:27:06.

or to take essential action... Or to take essential action to clean

:27:07.:27:11.

up the system, whilst at the same time blocking

:27:12.:27:21.

wider efforts to do so. We risk seeing a House of Commons

:27:22.:27:26.

which is stuffed full of low achievers,

:27:27.:27:28.

who hate enterprise, hate people who look

:27:29.:27:32.

after their own family and who know absolutely

:27:33.:27:35.

nothing about the outside world. The biggest multinational

:27:36.:27:38.

company earns more income in a single week

:27:39.:27:41.

than the combined incomes Now, the Prime Minister has spoken

:27:42.:27:44.

about transparency before and today and that is why many of us

:27:45.:27:49.

across this House, from all parties, want to make sure that the country

:27:50.:27:52.

by country information that multinationals will be obliged

:27:53.:27:55.

to provide to HMRC should be put Has David Cameron succeeded in

:27:56.:28:10.

putting this issue to bed? I don't think it will be put to bed for a

:28:11.:28:15.

long time because people do want to know that your thoughts, words and

:28:16.:28:21.

deeds all aligned. Talking about trust and integrity and

:28:22.:28:25.

authenticity. What we have got here now through technology is the

:28:26.:28:27.

ability to find out some of these things. Therefore, transparency and

:28:28.:28:35.

being able to justify what you are doing and saying will be at the four

:28:36.:28:39.

and I don't see that going for some time yet. It is a national motion to

:28:40.:28:44.

want to know what you're saying is really what you are doing.

:28:45.:28:49.

Transparency will be the most important thing for a little while,

:28:50.:28:54.

I think, going forward. Do you think it is right for anybody who wants to

:28:55.:28:57.

be prime ministers Chancellor to publish their tax returns? I think

:28:58.:29:03.

it is probably the way of the world going forward. We won't be like King

:29:04.:29:07.

Canute on the shore saying, hold that back. I am a conservative if

:29:08.:29:14.

you look at market forces, it is probably the next market force

:29:15.:29:19.

coming forward is transparency. You can't run, you can't hide, this will

:29:20.:29:24.

be the shape of things to come. Did they miss handle it with the drip,

:29:25.:29:29.

drip effect of number ten giving one statement that David Cameron had to

:29:30.:29:33.

clarify and expand. Was it a mistake?

:29:34.:29:37.

He said that himself. He said wasn't his finest hour. He's done

:29:38.:29:43.

everything right. Is done every been legal. But equally, it was a big

:29:44.:29:47.

shift that he was introducing in a relatively short base of time, that

:29:48.:29:51.

no Prime Minister before him has had to do. He changed that. I can see

:29:52.:29:55.

the reticence and he said he was defending his father but, as he

:29:56.:29:59.

says, it wasn't his finest hour and he should have been quicker doing

:30:00.:30:03.

what he did. What does it say about politicians' ability to govern by

:30:04.:30:07.

publishing their tax return? Not a lot, I think, is the truth. I've

:30:08.:30:12.

heard lots of suggestions that Churchill's tax returns and affairs

:30:13.:30:16.

were pretty murky. I'm sure many readers through the ages have not

:30:17.:30:19.

been great at managing their personal finances and yet managed to

:30:20.:30:23.

have a public role that stands up to scrutiny. I think it's a

:30:24.:30:28.

destruction, to be honest. I'm happy to publish mine if I need to but I

:30:29.:30:33.

think it is truly a destruction from the wider issues that this affair

:30:34.:30:38.

has exposed about the way in which our tax system internationally has

:30:39.:30:42.

become divorced from nation states. Taxes are there in order to be able

:30:43.:30:46.

to allow us, as politicians, to gather in the money to run essential

:30:47.:30:51.

public services, and if we've got a supranational set of tax rules and

:30:52.:30:55.

tax dodgers and tax avoidance, tax havens at the heart of these, and

:30:56.:30:59.

Britain at the heart of organising that, we are undermining our ability

:31:00.:31:03.

to the services that people in the or Pontypridd need or want. So I

:31:04.:31:08.

think there is a massive cultural issue at the heart of this. But the

:31:09.:31:17.

genie is out of the bottle. Do you think Labour should really be

:31:18.:31:20.

pressing this further, so that we do, and have seen now, the

:31:21.:31:24.

Chancellor's tax return, Jeremy Corbyn's found and published his.

:31:25.:31:28.

Should we be seeing every senior politician? Calls by the SNP for the

:31:29.:31:32.

Cabinet to publish theirs. Do you want to see that? I don't think that

:31:33.:31:36.

would add a huge amount. The newspapers would love it and there

:31:37.:31:40.

would easily be public interest in it. Would you constituents like it?

:31:41.:31:46.

My only income is my Parliamentary salary so if I publish mine, it

:31:47.:31:50.

would be extremely tedious for everyone. You could work it out

:31:51.:31:54.

right now. I've got no problems with doing it. But I think that is a

:31:55.:31:58.

destruction and some in the Conservative Party might like it to

:31:59.:32:01.

be a distraction from the bigger question we're trying to address.

:32:02.:32:04.

The newspapers might like it to be a bigger destruction. Let's get down

:32:05.:32:08.

into the weeds about to file their returns on time or who earned a

:32:09.:32:11.

little bit extra. But, actually, that is distracting from the much

:32:12.:32:17.

bigger question about how we reform internationally our tax system, such

:32:18.:32:20.

that countries can run properly and governments can govern properly. Is

:32:21.:32:25.

it a problem if you have a government that is imposing

:32:26.:32:29.

austerity, which you are busy supported as part of that

:32:30.:32:33.

government, and then revealed in their tax returns that maybe they

:32:34.:32:38.

are benefiting from tax planning or minimising their taxes? Is there a

:32:39.:32:42.

contradiction at the heart of that? First of all, what I was about and

:32:43.:32:45.

what the Conservative Party was about is living within your means,

:32:46.:32:49.

so it's not all stared at it. It's if you can't afford that, how way

:32:50.:32:52.

you going to bring more money into the country to be able to afford it,

:32:53.:32:56.

or how you going to do without it? Service austerity, it wasn't that.

:32:57.:33:00.

It was, how do you live within your means? This government has taken 4

:33:01.:33:05.

million people out of paying tax, those low earners. That's right. At

:33:06.:33:09.

the same time, they have brought in more money from people and companies

:33:10.:33:13.

paying into the tax system and that's right. The top 10% now are

:33:14.:33:22.

paying more than they've ever played. They are now paying 50% into

:33:23.:33:28.

the system. It might not be going as quick as people might like and there

:33:29.:33:32.

might still be more money that could be brought in but it is a process

:33:33.:33:35.

from start to finish and this government has done a lot in getting

:33:36.:33:39.

more taxing from those people who can afford it and those who can't

:33:40.:33:43.

not having to pay tax. I think S2 is doing a good job of trying to defend

:33:44.:33:48.

the indefensible. The two big issues are this cultural problem of tax

:33:49.:33:51.

avoidance and crucially, the other thing... What is the difference

:33:52.:33:55.

between tax avoidance and tax planning, as somebody said

:33:56.:33:59.

yesterday? ISA our tax planning, rather than tax avoidance. Where do

:34:00.:34:04.

you draw the line? You have to understand that there have to be not

:34:05.:34:07.

what we've got right now, which is one rule for people who may be put a

:34:08.:34:11.

few quid into an ice or into their pension, and one rule for the

:34:12.:34:14.

super-rich, like the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

:34:15.:34:18.

These are the very people who benefit from having the wherewithal

:34:19.:34:21.

and the skills on the money to take advantage of this nexus of tax

:34:22.:34:24.

havens across the world and we've got to address that. Which is legal.

:34:25.:34:30.

Perhaps that's the problem. That we have allowed to grow up like Topsy

:34:31.:34:35.

this combo gated web of tax avoidance and people like the Prime

:34:36.:34:40.

Minister, the super wealthy, can take advantage of it and ordinary

:34:41.:34:42.

people in my constituency could never dream of it. Just one thing.

:34:43.:34:49.

What he did was correct and he paid his tax on what was a unit trust

:34:50.:34:53.

and, actually, unit trusts are not only used by the trade unions but

:34:54.:34:58.

also by the guardian, pension funds, so careless words... I'm not care

:34:59.:35:05.

less, I'm careful. You weren't because this was about saving money

:35:06.:35:09.

and he's paid all his tax. Should the system need to change? Yes,

:35:10.:35:13.

that's what we are doing. He is trying to make sure there is greater

:35:14.:35:16.

transparency, that people with beneficial owners are now being

:35:17.:35:19.

exposed but this is something that will take time and I agree with you

:35:20.:35:23.

- people who can afford to pave more money into the tax system to support

:35:24.:35:27.

people who can't is the right way to go and that's what Conservatives

:35:28.:35:29.

believe in as well as the Labour Party. Thank you.

:35:30.:35:32.

Conservative backbenchers have called it an "insult" to voters,

:35:33.:35:34.

and an action worthy of Robert Mugabe.

:35:35.:35:35.

The decision by David Cameron to authorise a Government leaflet

:35:36.:35:39.

to be sent to everyone in the country, setting out why

:35:40.:35:42.

the Government backs Britain remaining in the EU.

:35:43.:35:44.

We'll discuss the ?9 million leaflet in just a moment.

:35:45.:35:46.

First, though, here's a flavour of the debate in the House

:35:47.:35:49.

Whether the United Kingdom should remain in or leave

:35:50.:35:59.

the European Union is a huge decision for this country.

:36:00.:36:01.

It is right that this should be a decision for the British

:36:02.:36:04.

people as a whole and, equally, it is right that people

:36:05.:36:09.

have the facts in front of them and understand the reasons

:36:10.:36:12.

for the Government's recommendations before they go to the poll.

:36:13.:36:17.

Does the Minister agree with me that some of the reaction to this

:36:18.:36:20.

publication has been more about trying to silence

:36:21.:36:23.

the arguments for remaining than trying to counter them?

:36:24.:36:27.

Does my right honourable friend agree that it is an absurd

:36:28.:36:32.

proposition that the government of the day is not entitled to form

:36:33.:36:36.

an opinion or policy on the role of the government

:36:37.:36:40.

in the modern world, or is not allowed to communicate

:36:41.:36:45.

the reasons for having that policy to the electorate?

:36:46.:36:49.

Does the Minister accept that this is not so much Project Fear

:36:50.:36:53.

as Project Slightly Worrying, because it's been dumbed down?

:36:54.:36:56.

But isn't it an abuse of public money, an insult to the electors,

:36:57.:37:02.

and does he realise it's going to drive many more

:37:03.:37:05.

The Minister will try as hard as he can to bluster this

:37:06.:37:11.

but the reality is that the public will see through it

:37:12.:37:14.

and they will realise that this is deeply, deeply unfair.

:37:15.:37:19.

Furthermore, I was very fortunate enough to get my copy of the leaflet

:37:20.:37:23.

this morning and I was slightly disappointed that it was printed

:37:24.:37:27.

Had it been printed on something a bit more absorbent,

:37:28.:37:33.

then at least my constituents would have been able to put it

:37:34.:37:35.

As a member of the Council of Europe, part of my responsibility

:37:36.:37:41.

is election observing and I go round and I have a look

:37:42.:37:44.

at the conduct of the campaign prior to polling day,

:37:45.:37:48.

and if I witnessed in any of the countries that I go

:37:49.:37:51.

to the sort of spiv Robert Mugabe antics that I've seen by this

:37:52.:37:55.

government, then I would condemn the conduct of that election

:37:56.:38:00.

We've been joined now by the Conservative MP Nigel Evans,

:38:01.:38:11.

who you saw there at the end of those clips, and by James

:38:12.:38:14.

McGrory, chief campaign spokesman for Britain Stronger in Europe.

:38:15.:38:18.

Welcome to both of you. So there is the leaflet. Not really for

:38:19.:38:27.

absorbent purposes. But why shouldn't the Government explain

:38:28.:38:30.

their official position? Well, we hear that David Livingstone is

:38:31.:38:34.

saying 85 is under the public want more information for stock they want

:38:35.:38:37.

more information from both sides, not just one of the sites. When he

:38:38.:38:43.

says the Government is giving its view, part of the government is in

:38:44.:38:47.

favour and part of the government actually wants to leave. There are

:38:48.:38:50.

six Cabinet ministers campaigning to leave the EU. There are a lot of

:38:51.:38:54.

ministers and half the Parliamentary backbenchers want to leave the EU.

:38:55.:38:59.

But those Cabinet ministers that you mentioned are voting against the

:39:00.:39:01.

Government's position and that's the official position, isn't it? As I

:39:02.:39:06.

mentioned in that piece right at the end, and I toned it down, as you may

:39:07.:39:10.

have seen. I was very, very calm. Calmer now. I'm a member of the

:39:11.:39:15.

council of Europe. I will be very shortly going to Serbia to observe

:39:16.:39:18.

their Parliamentary elections and I'll be looking at the run-up to the

:39:19.:39:23.

election, as well as how the conduct of the poll takes place on the

:39:24.:39:26.

Sunday. And if things come to my attention whereby the Government is

:39:27.:39:31.

promoting itself, spending money on pushing itself, as opposed to the

:39:32.:39:34.

other side, then I'm not going to say it's fair. And that's what it

:39:35.:39:37.

all comes down to. People want more information but they wanted from all

:39:38.:39:42.

sides so why didn't the Government just allow both sides to have more

:39:43.:39:45.

money to spend instead of, I've got to say, spending ?9 million of

:39:46.:39:49.

taxpayers' money, when I've got potholes into the row. That's where

:39:50.:39:52.

the money should be going, not on this. ?9 million is an awful lot of

:39:53.:39:57.

money and there will be an awful lot of taxpayers who will say, I didn't

:39:58.:40:01.

want it spent on that. It works out at about 30p per household. Believe

:40:02.:40:05.

campaigns will get money to spend on their own leaflets. -- the Leave

:40:06.:40:12.

campaigns. The Government has a right to articulated position. The

:40:13.:40:15.

Government is firmly on the side of remaining in the EU. But did they

:40:16.:40:20.

have to do it in this leaflet here, which is a fairly weighty, you might

:40:21.:40:26.

call it, in terms of leaflets, anyway, spelling out that the

:40:27.:40:29.

government believes are voting to remain in the EU is the best

:40:30.:40:33.

decision for the UK. It's a fairly weighty issue. At an important

:40:34.:40:36.

issue. There's a lot to the issue. Jobs, the economy, our place in the

:40:37.:40:40.

world, security. There's a lot to get through and it's a relatively

:40:41.:40:43.

small leaflet when you think of the big debate we're having in this

:40:44.:40:46.

country. People want to hear from their government on a range of

:40:47.:40:49.

things. The Government spends millions of pounds communicating

:40:50.:40:52.

with the public, whether it's on welfare, health, Home Office

:40:53.:40:56.

policies. They're doing it on what I would argue is the biggest issue

:40:57.:41:00.

facing the country today. It's not worthy of Robert Mugabe, though, is

:41:01.:41:06.

it. Was that not an overreaction? Absolutely, but it was emphasis to

:41:07.:41:10.

make a point, which is that it is loading the dice, and part of the

:41:11.:41:13.

problem is that if it is a tight result in favour to remain, a lot of

:41:14.:41:17.

people are going to say, "Hold on, this was an unfair election and the

:41:18.:41:21.

dice was loaded in favour of the Government". They are tried to make

:41:22.:41:25.

out that these are all facts. They're not. They are opinions.

:41:26.:41:28.

There is no mention in this document that we've got a ?60 billion deficit

:41:29.:41:31.

with the rest of the EU and that's one of the reasons they will want to

:41:32.:41:35.

carry on trading with us. There is not a hope in hell that Angela

:41:36.:41:39.

Merkel is going to say, we don't want to sell Britain BMWs and

:41:40.:41:42.

Mercedes. Did you complain about it when they did it in the Scottish

:41:43.:41:46.

referendum. I didn't realise they were doing it for the Scottish

:41:47.:41:49.

referendum but I understand why the Scots felt so angry about it. They

:41:50.:41:53.

did it twice and I didn't see any Conservative MPs complaining them

:41:54.:41:55.

because you were on the same side of the argument. You don't like the

:41:56.:41:58.

fact that your Conservative government has taken a different

:41:59.:42:02.

position from yourself. They should be allowed to to give it that the

:42:03.:42:05.

people. Why not give ?9 million to the other side to do the same?

:42:06.:42:09.

Because the Government is a neutral. The Government has a clear position.

:42:10.:42:13.

Nigel doesn't like it. What about the issue of fairness? In the

:42:14.:42:17.

campaign, both sides get an equal amount of taxpayers' money to spend.

:42:18.:42:20.

But you've got an extra 16 page leaflet. Because the government

:42:21.:42:29.

isn't a neutral actor. The Bank of England... I don't spend ?9 million

:42:30.:42:33.

in doing so. I don't mind Cameron come the dispatch box and saying, "I

:42:34.:42:37.

want to stay in," but what I do resent is the dispatch box and

:42:38.:42:40.

saying, "I want to stay in," but what I do resent is the spending of

:42:41.:42:43.

?9 million. If you weren't making outrageous claims about your own

:42:44.:42:45.

government, comparing them to Robert Mugabe, when they did it in

:42:46.:42:50.

Scotland... You say that this looks as if they're giving facts and you

:42:51.:42:54.

disagree with some of the facts, but this has also been put through

:42:55.:42:58.

people's letterboxes, UK and the European Union - the facts. And,

:42:59.:43:03.

actually, when you read it, in very small print, which I could hardly

:43:04.:43:06.

read, it's been sent by vote leave. This also gives the impression that

:43:07.:43:11.

that that is a factual document was top they should have made it clearer

:43:12.:43:14.

that it was from Vote Leave. I haven't read that. You can have that

:43:15.:43:21.

copy as a gift from me. You are still doing the same thing as you

:43:22.:43:27.

complain about on the other side. Vote Leave paid for this, taxpayers

:43:28.:43:30.

paid for that. But is the crucial difference. If you feel so strongly

:43:31.:43:35.

about taxpayers' money being used, would you say that the Leave side

:43:36.:43:41.

shouldn't take a grant for their own leaflets? It's not ?9 million. If

:43:42.:43:47.

it's being delivered to every person... How can it be cheaper? Why

:43:48.:43:54.

don't you allow the Leave campaign to raise a further 9.3 million from

:43:55.:43:58.

subscribers and then they'd be able to use that to get the message out?

:43:59.:44:03.

It's not really in my gift. Would you do it? Of course not because he

:44:04.:44:10.

wants it loaded for the Remain side. Is this about the process all the

:44:11.:44:14.

arguments? It's about the process of getting the units across. People

:44:15.:44:17.

need the information. I agree with that. There are people sitting at

:44:18.:44:20.

home without the faintest idea whether we should be in or out. They

:44:21.:44:23.

probably feel a bit perplexed that a Prime Minister who, just a few weeks

:44:24.:44:28.

ago, said that if he didn't get a deal he would be believing the --

:44:29.:44:32.

leading the cannot relieve campaign, and now Armageddon if we leave. Does

:44:33.:44:36.

the Government have a right to be putting leaflets out like this? I

:44:37.:44:40.

was surprised that a couple of facts were left out, like the deficit with

:44:41.:44:44.

Europe, and also the cost of membership, so for something that

:44:45.:44:47.

was meant to be a fact sheet, I would've thought those two key

:44:48.:44:50.

points should have been there. They were omitted because they wouldn't

:44:51.:44:53.

have gone in the camera crew remain campaign's favour but I think

:44:54.:44:56.

individuals want a sense of fair play. If the polls are as tight as

:44:57.:45:01.

people say they are, 50% would have wanted some more information. When

:45:02.:45:06.

you were at the DWP, you didn't articulate the opposition's position

:45:07.:45:08.

in your press release. There wasn't a referendum. There was an

:45:09.:45:14.

opposition who was doing exactly the same and we had the exact same

:45:15.:45:19.

period of time. You pulled out. You've put out an extra leaflet.

:45:20.:45:24.

Comfortingly, we've got weeks and weeks of this to go. You can take

:45:25.:45:28.

that with you, Nigel. Thank you very much.

:45:29.:45:30.

Most new MPs in the 2015 intake have settled

:45:31.:45:32.

returned to parliament after taking time off to fight breast cancer,

:45:33.:45:40.

with which she was diagnosed shortly after her election

:45:41.:45:42.

The Labour MP over-turned a majority of 11,000 to win her Bristol West

:45:43.:45:48.

Here she is in action on the campaign trail.

:45:49.:45:52.

If you didn't know, my name is Thangam Debbonaire

:45:53.:46:07.

and I'm the Labour candidate to be the member

:46:08.:46:09.

I've got to say, this is one of the most exciting cities to live

:46:10.:46:16.

Any newcomers in the audience today, that's you guys at the back,

:46:17.:46:20.

I can really recommend this fantastic city.

:46:21.:46:23.

Now, she is here with us. You've been back a couple of weeks. How

:46:24.:46:32.

have you been settling in? My hair doesn't look like that any more! I

:46:33.:46:37.

wouldn't say it has been painless because I am still suffering

:46:38.:46:41.

post-operative pain but I have had a warm welcome from colleagues and

:46:42.:46:46.

members of staff across the house. It is a little difficult because I

:46:47.:46:49.

don't know the entrances and exits but I am getting there. How

:46:50.:46:56.

different is the atmosphere from June last year? I was caught up in a

:46:57.:47:00.

very strange environment having won a seat with a reasonable majority

:47:01.:47:06.

but discovering we weren't the party of majority in parliament. That was

:47:07.:47:11.

just as I discovered I had breast cancer. I carried on working as I

:47:12.:47:16.

was being treated but all in the constituency. How supportive have

:47:17.:47:21.

your constituency and Parliamentary colleagues been? Brilliant. I think

:47:22.:47:28.

I've had the time to read all the briefings about all the debates.

:47:29.:47:33.

There were times watching debates I thought I was the only person who

:47:34.:47:37.

had watched all the debates and read all the briefings and the Daily

:47:38.:47:46.

Politics every day. Who was the most helpful? I had help from all across

:47:47.:47:53.

the house. I wouldn't want to pick one single person out. I really was

:47:54.:47:58.

quite overwhelmed about how good a place it was to working with a

:47:59.:48:03.

serious illness. Do you think remote working from Westminster can be

:48:04.:48:07.

done? I think it can be considered. I'm hoping that in the process of

:48:08.:48:11.

changing premises we consider things like voting and in second and -- and

:48:12.:48:22.

in certain circumstances I could have voted, having read everything

:48:23.:48:28.

about the issue and the only thing I couldn't do was to vote. It was

:48:29.:48:31.

frustrating that there was no mechanism. Having that degree of

:48:32.:48:39.

time to study all the topics as serious as they are, do not think it

:48:40.:48:44.

should be an option that if people are not able to come, they could do

:48:45.:48:49.

it remotely? The technology is there. You followed all the debates

:48:50.:48:53.

and had the information to hand, so I think it should be an option. I

:48:54.:48:58.

would also say in defence of doing it in person, when I was there, I

:48:59.:49:03.

asked why we were still doing it. It is your only time to see all of the

:49:04.:49:09.

secretaries of State, the Prime Minister, etc. But if you are happy

:49:10.:49:15.

to give that up because you want to do it because it is so important to

:49:16.:49:22.

be at home, then you can. It is the 21st century, we should find

:49:23.:49:26.

different ways to meet with our colleagues. I was able to pick up

:49:27.:49:30.

the phone and call and e-mail colleagues. I do believe in debate

:49:31.:49:34.

in the house but I think it is an issue and I would like it to be

:49:35.:49:37.

considered as part of parliamentary reform. Can I just say, what a huge

:49:38.:49:44.

inspiration, they you are, everybody welcome you back. Just as a woman

:49:45.:49:50.

coming back, living through that and being in parliament, all credit to

:49:51.:49:55.

you. And you were actually promoted to Shadow Minister for culture,

:49:56.:50:05.

media to, -- and sport. I am doing the art and culture bit because I am

:50:06.:50:10.

not familiar with sport! My constituency is a very arty area. I

:50:11.:50:16.

am a professional cellist. I come from a family of musicians. I am

:50:17.:50:23.

going to enjoy it. I think it was a good move to appoint someone to a

:50:24.:50:27.

brief lecture you know something about it. A revolutionary idea! It

:50:28.:50:32.

is great to have you back. Nice to meet you.

:50:33.:50:35.

It's Jeremy Corbyn as you've never seen him - an all singing,

:50:36.:50:39.

all dancing sensation on the London stage.

:50:40.:50:41.

We're not talking about the man himself - of course -

:50:42.:50:47.

but the actor who plays the lead role in Corbyn, the Musical,

:50:48.:50:51.

a new off-west end musical comedy about the Labour Leader's

:50:52.:50:53.

supposed motorbike holiday through East Germany

:50:54.:50:54.

Here's Giles with a sneak peak ahead of tonight's opening night.

:50:55.:50:59.

If I don't hear back, I'm going to go to the council

:51:00.:51:02.

and have the lleylandia ripped down and shoved right...

:51:03.:51:04.

# They said I couldn't do it, they said I couldn't win

:51:05.:51:12.

# There'd never be a PM called Jeremy Corbyn

:51:13.:51:14.

# Now I am in power, the clouds will disappear

:51:15.:51:16.

# The sun will shine upon us, hope will conquer fear...#

:51:17.:51:20.

A satire about Jeremy Corbyn, his fans should like this.

:51:21.:51:23.

# The world's in my hands, sleep safe at night

:51:24.:51:27.

# Now you're with the left, we're getting it right

:51:28.:51:30.

# I didn't sell out, I didn't give in

:51:31.:51:32.

# You needed a hero, you got Corbyn.#

:51:33.:51:37.

# Taking on big business, I'll supertax the banks

:51:38.:51:50.

# I've got rid of the bedroom tax and cancelled all the tanks

:51:51.:51:53.

# I don't live at Chequers, my palms are never greased

:51:54.:51:56.

# I've opened up the state rooms to migrants from the East.#

:51:57.:51:58.

Whilst Labour is the focus, no party or person escapes ridicule.

:51:59.:52:01.

# Women only carriages, a manifesto vow

:52:02.:52:03.

# All children have to learn about the works of Chairman Mao

:52:04.:52:06.

# My career was always stalling, now I am in the driving seat

:52:07.:52:09.

# Today the red flag's flying above ten Downing St.#

:52:10.:52:11.

It has Diane Abbott, President Putin, and Jeremy Corbyn

:52:12.:52:15.

portrayed and it always helps if you pick a lead actor who,

:52:16.:52:18.

# You needed a hero, you got Corbyn.#

:52:19.:52:27.

I don't really have such a big beard but I've got...

:52:28.:52:30.

I think I'm a little more handsome but, who knows?

:52:31.:52:40.

But here's the key, he's no fan of singing the praises of one

:52:41.:52:43.

side and bashing the hell out of the other.

:52:44.:52:46.

No one is safe, everyone is getting some stick from somewhere.

:52:47.:52:51.

Whether you're in power or you're not in power.

:52:52.:52:55.

I think the most important thing is that it will,

:52:56.:52:58.

But it's worth noting that some of the characters are, in real life,

:52:59.:53:06.

political characters, so how do you avoid caricature?

:53:07.:53:10.

I've studied a lot of how Diane speaks, her mannerisms,

:53:11.:53:15.

funnily enough, I think we share a few, so...

:53:16.:53:19.

Yeah, it's been a really interesting process trying to put

:53:20.:53:23.

And, on top of the music, there are the odd video inserts.

:53:24.:53:29.

Mr President, what does this have to do with, sexuality?

:53:30.:53:42.

Here's the bizarre thing, I'm not only covering it for

:53:43.:53:45.

the Daily Politics, somehow I'm in it.

:53:46.:53:47.

And if you're remotely interested in my fate,

:53:48.:53:49.

And we've been joined by the two writers behind this production -

:53:50.:53:55.

Why, Jeremy Corbyn the musical? I don't think there is anybody else in

:53:56.:54:07.

British politics who would justify it. The reaction was astonishing. We

:54:08.:54:11.

sold out all the tickets in record time. I think it may be because of

:54:12.:54:19.

the subject matter. What gave you the idea, making it a musical, as

:54:20.:54:24.

well? Very few politicians have such a colourful back story. Jeremy

:54:25.:54:32.

Corbyn travelled a lot, went abroad with Diane Abbott, allegedly, to

:54:33.:54:37.

East Germany. It is very interesting that the young Jeremy Corbyn

:54:38.:54:42.

probably found it a fitting place to be. How long did it take to write?

:54:43.:54:49.

About six months. The plot outline took about 20 minutes but then an

:54:50.:54:53.

awful lot of work after that. Putting the flesh on the bones.

:54:54.:54:59.

Exactly. It was really quite intense. We didn't realise quite how

:55:00.:55:04.

much work it would be. Here we are, the day we start this evening,

:55:05.:55:08.

opening night, we are running off to continue doing things

:55:09.:55:12.

behind-the-scenes. It is a huge amount of work. You have finished

:55:13.:55:16.

it? It is not like a Budget Statement? Yes, but there was time

:55:17.:55:24.

to put in a joke about Jeremy Corbyn finding his tax return. Are you

:55:25.:55:30.

going to see it? I think I will. It looks fantastic. Is it a comedy. A

:55:31.:55:37.

fun night, people will go. A few years ago, I went to see Tory Boys,

:55:38.:55:43.

by the National youth Theatre and that was a fantastically

:55:44.:55:49.

entertaining night. We have invited him. It pokes fun but it is not

:55:50.:55:55.

mean. He didn't even reply which wasn't very kind. He might once he

:55:56.:56:01.

has seen an interview. It could be lit a suicide for him to come so he

:56:02.:56:08.

could come in a couple of weeks. It is described as James Bond meets the

:56:09.:56:15.

Kama Sutra, why? We had to Celtic it's! There is a nuclear plotline

:56:16.:56:28.

and a bit of romance. -- sell tickets. We also invited Diane

:56:29.:56:31.

Abbott but she hasn't been in touch either. We would be delighted to

:56:32.:56:37.

send over tickets on a motorbike courier. Any chance of it being

:56:38.:56:40.

transferred to the West End? We would love it and this is our first

:56:41.:56:45.

play and we don't really know what we are doing. If you know how to do

:56:46.:56:51.

it, given as a call. You know who to write to. Giles had a cameo role.

:56:52.:56:57.

Was he right? I couldn't possibly say. He isn't here today, I think

:56:58.:57:00.

that says everything. There's just time before we go to

:57:01.:57:02.

find out the answer to our quiz. The question was -

:57:03.:57:05.

what happened next? He didn't write off the mortgage of

:57:06.:57:17.

the one the taxpayers were helping to pay for at Oxford.

:57:18.:57:20.

I didn't receive a proper answer then.

:57:21.:57:21.

Well, he wouldn't withdraw dodgy from dodgy David, so obviously John

:57:22.:57:39.

Burke, the Speaker of the house, it was in the first time he's been

:57:40.:57:45.

injected, so he left the chamber, not to be able to return for the

:57:46.:57:47.

rest of the day. I must ask the honourable gentleman

:57:48.:57:48.

to withdraw the word... Under the power given to me

:57:49.:57:51.

by standing order number 43, I order the honourable member

:57:52.:58:04.

to withdraw immediately from the House for the remainder

:58:05.:58:09.

of this day's sitting. Were you surprised? Were you

:58:10.:58:24.

surprised that he refused to retract it? No. He is one of the great

:58:25.:58:31.

characters of the house. He is formidable and he's not going to

:58:32.:58:35.

change. He's in his 80s and he's not going to change and doubt. That's

:58:36.:58:40.

what happened. If you say something that isn't acceptable behaviour in

:58:41.:58:44.

the house, then you will be sent off. Card. Off you go. He was never

:58:45.:58:51.

going to retract it. The speaker did seem to send him away with sadness

:58:52.:58:57.

rather than anger. He is always so thoughtful when you have to deliver

:58:58.:59:00.

something like that so precisely. Thank you

:59:01.:59:01.

Jo Coburn is joined by the former work and pensions minister Esther McVey to discuss the latest news from Westminster, including a debate about welfare with the shadow work and pensions secretary Owen Smith, the latest on the steel crisis and a discussion about the government's £9 million pro-EU leaflets. The writer of a new production, Corbyn the Musical, also joins Jo.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS