09/05/2016 Daily Politics


09/05/2016

Political news with Jo Coburn. With guests Jacob Rees-Mogg and Michael Dugher. They examine the fallout from last Thursday's election campaign, and look ahead to the EU referendum.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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It's war - or it could be if Britain leaves the EU,

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says the Prime Minister - but is his warning of instability

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and conflict just desperate and insulting, as Leave

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Labour's election results in England were better than some expected

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and they won the contest for London mayor.

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So why has the Shadow Chancellor launched a public attack on fellow

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MP and former Labour cabinet minister Caroline Flint?

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St Ives votes to ban the sale of new builds

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to second home owners - but will it make it

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easier for locals to get on the housing ladder?

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And has London been taken over by cycling fascists?

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Isn't it about time the rest of us Sturt up four our writes told

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cyclists the roads are also for buses, cars, lorries and taxis --

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stood up for our rights! All that in the next hour,

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and with us for the whole of the programme today,

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former Labour Shadow Cabinet minister Michael Dugher,

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who describes himself on Twitter as having been "sacked

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by Jeremy Corbyn for too much straight talking,

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honest politics". And with him a man once described

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as "David Cameron's worst nightmare" - but is now considered by some

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a "national treasure", Conservative MP and Leave campaigner,

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Jacob Rees-Mogg. With the local elections behind us,

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the and just 45 days to go until the referendum,

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the debate over our membership of The biggest names on either side

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of the referendum campaign have gone into battle this morning armed

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with big speeches. volleys, warning that peace

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in Europe could be put at risk "Isolationism has never served

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this country well", he says. "Can we be

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so sure that peace and stability on our continent are assured

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beyond any shadow of doubt?" Mr Cameron also suggests

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Winston Churchill would have disapproved of Britain

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leaving the EU, saying

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Britain made a "lone stand" in 1940 when it "stood as a bulwark

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against a new dark age of tyranny". says: "The PM's words are deeply

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ironic, given the EU's own border agency says the EU's borderless

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policy is making the whole Meanwhile,

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the leading light in the Leave campaign, Boris Johnson,

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made a speech this morning entitled "The liberal

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cosmopolitan case for Brexit", And attacked the EU's record on

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signing trade deals. EU Houston trade deals with people and steamy

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and Authority and with San Marino and others. Bravo but it has failed

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to conclude agreements with India, China, or even America that it has

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done trade deals with the Palestinian authority. Because

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negotiating with the EU is like trying to ride a 28 man pantomime

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horse with everyone pulling in different directions.

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Michael Dugher, do you share the view that peace is at risk if we

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leave the EU? I would not go so far as to imply that they will be Word

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War three if we do not. But Mac world War three. I think he is right

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to set the context, which is that the European Community did come out

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of those hugely costly conflicts over very many years. I think that

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is a timely reminder. I also think there is an issue in terms of the EU

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in that it does help our defence and security now whether it is European

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arrest warrant or frankly helping to co-ordinated across different

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countries in Europe, whether dealing with terrorism at home otherwise Mac

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overseas. I think there is something in that. Jacob Rees Mogg, your

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position is threatening peace and stability? This is untrue. The Prime

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Minister has got his sister rerun. Great Britain has not always engaged

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on the European continent. A lot of our policy was to avoid that because

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it brought us into walls. I could start with Elizabeth the first... Or

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more recent history like the two world was because of that is how the

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EU really came to be. The two wars were caused by two German dictator

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's attacking their neighbouring countries. We got involved because

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we felt that was crucial for bees and security. As Germany going to

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become a dictatorship and invade if we leave? This is where the main

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argument of the campaign becomes absurd and hysterical. Where would

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all start and do you know what the poem list is talking about when he

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says peace and stability would be threatened? Does the remainder side

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have in their mind how this would break out? I think we are stronger

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together. The threats today are not on the scale of world war or an

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invading power yet in many ways the threats we face as a country are

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more complicated and more difficult to deal with. They run across

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borders when you think of the fight against international terror or the

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walls by proxy that we have to deal with, dealing with international

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terrorism. It is the case that the civilised democracies of this world

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are better when they can work together in dealing with threats

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that in many cases are very common. Particularly when we have looked at

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the recent terrorist threats. Nothing to do with the European

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Union. The five eyes system is the US, the UK, Canada, and New Zealand.

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Weak or operated with France for better or worse in regard to

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liberated -- we cooperated with them, that had nothing to do with

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the EU, the Belgian authorities did not even tell the police the

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information they had on terror attacks. So security is not to that

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extent within the European treaties, it is pretending that there is a

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competence within the EU that it is not. MI5 and MI6 has said that

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Britain benefits from sharing intelligence. Another former head of

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Isaacs has said the opposite. You have people taking different views

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whether they favour remaining leaving. Of course you can cooperate

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with friendly nations. You don't need a treaty structure that makes

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European law your law or makes decisions of European courts your

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decisions and overrides your democracy just too hot nations deal

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with terrorism. We work more closely in this area with the United States

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than with any single European country. What if the French

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intelligence services knew about an imminent attack in Britain, surely

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they would tell us, whether we were part of the EU or not? It is not a

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choice of either - or, either we can have good relations with the

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Americans or with our nearest neighbours. We can have both. The EU

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facilitates the letter. From an industrial point of view when you

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think of the complexity and cost of major defence programmes come

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increasingly these are done as joint ventures between Anglo European

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partners, these are just practical benefits that we get in a very

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difficult and challenging defence and security climate. Those security

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measures are primarily intergovernmental. The European

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Arrest Warrant, all the fanfare about it how it would stop

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terrorism, and then it was used to crush Mike a family -- crush a

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family that were not happy. That was European law. Are you saying it is

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never used to stop paedophiles, terror suspects? I say it was built

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up to do that and then was used for minor things. You do not need

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European superstructure to fight terrorism. You need intelligent

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co-operation between independent European states. What happens in

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this context is intergovernmental, not European union based. Is not

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overstating the case, Michael, when the Prime Minister says that leaving

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would be an act of abject retreat and risk turning the clock back to

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nationalism in Europe. As you say you don't expect all out war to

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break out if we were to leave the EU. Is that not also overstating his

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case? All prime ministers can get carried away with their rhetoric and

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in my experience all prime ministers love to have a reference to Winston

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Churchill in their speech! It's like getting six the buzz on the lottery,

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you can say I am the first Prime Minister since Winston Churchill to

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do this! -- like getting six numbers on the lottery. Although he is right

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to say that we are at a crossroads as a country. This is about our

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ambitions as a country. We can go back to some sort of nostalgia that

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I do not believe ever existed all can continue to recognise that

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economically and in many areas our future belongs in a modern European

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union of modern independent States, working together to face the

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challenges that come upon union -- us as a country. Could you not be

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accused of looking back to a past age and maybe Winston Churchill

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would have been an your side? I don't think we need to think about

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what dead people think of this, we need to think about what living

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people think. The Prime Minister cannot see a pudding without over

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egging it. On the Brexit side we are looking to a broad international

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future without the closed European shop. We the ones with international

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vision, supporters of the Remain camp are stuck in the 19th century

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way of thinking. It is the rest of the world that is more important.

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Now back in March the Foreign Affairs Select committee published

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an analysis of what Leaving the EU would mean for Britain's

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The report didn't take sides - the committee equally split

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for and against leaving - but its Chairman -

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Crispin Blunt - hadn't declared his hand.

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In March he promised to listen to the views of his committee and then

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come back and tell us which way he had decided to vote. This is what he

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said. I've got a committee that,

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other than me, is split 5-5. You're not going to tell us

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until your committee reports? I want a unanimous report

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from the Europhiles and the Eurosceptics,

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who will then announce Because the nation

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is waiting to hear. But I am going to wait

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until the committee has reported... I can't imagine anywhere

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better to do it! We like to hold politicians to

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account on this programme. But us out of our misery, which way

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are you going? I wrote a pamphlet on the need for a country to make a

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choice on this Amber Rudd two competing statements on how we

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should be, committed to the European ideal, making institutions work,

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fully committed with European partners into making a reality all

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the security and economic co-operation to make a success of

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the ideals that came out of the ashes of World War II? Or and

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internationalist vision for the UK, equipped with all the global

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strength that we have, the economically unique selling points,

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global rather than regional, a global vision if we choose, and a

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global role should we choose to take it. There is only one of those rules

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on offer today. As a positive role for the UK, globally, playing a

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strong internationalist role against dog in the manger stopping our

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European Union partners getting on with the necessary co-operation that

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they need to do. So you are voting to leave? My conclusion is that I

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want a positive story, positive role for the UK and so I think Brexit

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offers that option. That was a long answer. So now we can confirm that

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you are backing Brexit. I thought it might be good to give an explanation

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of how I have come to this decision. Why has it taken News along? I

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chaired a committee that was split down the middle, 5-5, without me,

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and I thought it was more important and that the country takes a

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decision. We need to set a path to the UK. Being half in and half out

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was not, in my judgment, the right place to beat in 1998. It is still

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not come in my view, the right place to be. We should be fully committed

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to this institution and the European ideal or to this institution and the

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European ideal or two and internationalist globalist view.

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Does your committee back the vote to leave? Even though you have the

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casting vote? We are not going to conduct another inquiry into our

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role in the world. I wanted the committee to provide a service to

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the public, produce a review of the position that was not biased. Not

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biased because it was unanimously agreed by the committee regardless

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of their field. That view is addressed to the electorate to help

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them decide. Let's get reaction from our guests. Michael Dugher, you

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disappointed that Crispin Blunt will not be campaigning on your side?

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Think the way that Crispin and his committee have handled it has been

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the right way, trying to explore the arguments. The committee deserves a

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lot of credit for that. He's also right to say that regardless which

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side of the odd and you fall on you need to emphasise the positive in

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this. -- which side of argument. From the point of view of those of

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us who want to Remain, the huge lessons from the Scottish referendum

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is, if you are defending the status quo, against a change, then it's a

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very difficult fight to have but it is not one borne out by the facts of

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the case because I think this should be a contest of two competing

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alternative views for Britain's relationship in Europe and in the

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world. I am convinced that the best for Britain is to remain inside the

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European Union yet to fight for Britain's interest in it. We have

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not always done that terribly well. I think we must be much more

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hard-headed about the changes we want.

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The danger is that our defence of British interests, ever since the

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European Union started in the direction away from just a single

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market in the 1980s, and we have had endless successive treaties were the

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British position has been doggedly defended by British Prime Minister,

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getting us to opt out of various measures, all of which served us to

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obstruct the workings of the European Union for them to deal

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with... They need the fiscal stability to underpin a common

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currency. We heard there that this was about trying to provide an

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unbiased accounts of both side, but did the government not provide that

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when it sent a booklet to each household listing the facts and

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stats behind our membership of the Duke was the I'm astonished you

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would think that, and I can't believe any of your viewers do. It

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implied that we controlled our own borders when we don't. It was

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disgraceful. The government spent ?9.2 million of taxpayers' money

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trying to persuade us to do what the government wanted. Every time we

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look on a government website, they have a pop up to try to get you to

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read government propaganda. This is really shocking and an British. The

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truth is, the people who want us to come out are offering the British

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public a blank sheet of paper. They are inviting people to take a leap

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into a world that is utterly undefined. They have no idea what

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the Britain would look like outside the EU. It is right that we

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emphasise the clear benefits we've got, and, frankly, the risks to

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jobs, our economy and the security and everything else. We will have to

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finish it there. Crispin Blunt, just to confirm that you will be

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campaigning for Brexit. Yes. Scottish Conservative leader

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Ruth Davidson now leads the official opposition in Holyrood,

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and many are tipping her to become Never shy of a photo opportunity,

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Ms Davidson has outdone herself during this last campaign,

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so our question today is, which of these pictures

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is the fake photo op? At the end of the show JacoB

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and Michael will give So after winning the contest

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for London mayor and better than expected results

:18:26.:18:28.

in English Council elections, Labour might have been hoping

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for a cessation of hostilities But yesterday fresh salvos

:18:31.:18:32.

were being fired across radio First Caroline Flint appeared

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on the Sunday Politics programme with this criticism of

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Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell. John McDonnell also said

:18:43.:18:45.

in the run-up to these elections Well, looking to hang

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on isn't enough. This is the worst result

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for an opposition party after The year after Michael Foot

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was elected, I think we gained And in fact the Tories,

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when you look at directly contested elections,

:19:02.:19:12.

actually gained three. It doesn't take away

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from the hard work on the ground by Labour councillors,

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Parliamentary candidates and members in these elections,

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but we need to be making far more inroads to be within an opportunity

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to win in 2020 and that's That prompted this retort

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from from John McDonnell on last I've heard Caroline Flint

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quoted today quoting me, and I never actually said

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what she is supposedly What I said after the elections

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themselves was that people predicted that we were facing disaster

:19:46.:19:49.

of losing anything between 175 and 200 seats, and when you compare

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our success in the last week In 2012, when we fought these

:19:55.:20:00.

seats last time round, we were at the highest level

:20:01.:20:06.

of approval for Ed Miliband, and we've actually

:20:07.:20:11.

virtually maintained I'm not in any way

:20:12.:20:14.

complacent about that. Earlier in the day,

:20:15.:20:18.

the Shadow Chancellor took He wrote: "Caroline

:20:19.:20:26.

Flint, you quoted me saying re recent elections

:20:27.:20:30.

"we are looking to hang on." "Could you now publicly

:20:31.:20:33.

correct this." To which Ms Flint responded

:20:34.:20:37.

by citing Pienaar's Politics on Radio 5 Live from 24 April,

:20:38.:20:40.

writing: John McDonnell MP said "Hold on to as much

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as we possibly can". Joining us now from

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our Brighton studio is the Labour party Councillor

:20:49.:20:54.

and Momentum activist, Sam Tarry. Welcome to the programme. Why is

:20:55.:21:06.

John McDonnell having a public row with another Labour MP? Well,

:21:07.:21:12.

obviously at the moment, there's been a lot of rows going on. The

:21:13.:21:17.

interesting thing is there's two agendas trying to be set here. One

:21:18.:21:21.

of the things I find disconcerting is the way that so many PLP members,

:21:22.:21:28.

Labour MPs, are taking to the airwaves to put the boot in after a

:21:29.:21:32.

set of election results in local government that are pretty good, and

:21:33.:21:41.

some stonking results for London and Bristol mayor. Why did he send her a

:21:42.:21:47.

public tweet? He said that he wants the party to unite, and here he is

:21:48.:21:52.

demanding she corrects something she said, and an Dingxi does it

:21:53.:21:55.

publicly. Is that best strategy for unifying the party? Twitter doesn't

:21:56.:22:02.

necessarily lead to the most conciliatory discussion, I find! I

:22:03.:22:07.

would advise people to calm down slightly. There is something, as a

:22:08.:22:14.

grassroots member and a councillor for six years, a Chief Whip and

:22:15.:22:20.

someone that understand about party discipline, a lot of ordinary Labour

:22:21.:22:23.

Party members are getting fed up with certain quarters of the PLP

:22:24.:22:28.

taking to the airwaves, constructing arguments just to put the boot in,

:22:29.:22:33.

because they can't get over the fact that the candidate they supported

:22:34.:22:37.

got 4.5% in the leadership elections. It's time to move on and

:22:38.:22:42.

get behind the leader. Would it have been a more grown-up approach to say

:22:43.:22:46.

to Caroline Flint, and respond to her, asking for a phone conversation

:22:47.:22:50.

rather than carrying it out in public? For me, I always preferred

:22:51.:22:58.

to get round the table and have a discussion. The junior doctors in

:22:59.:23:02.

ACAS today, you don't have to be in a case but you do have to be more

:23:03.:23:05.

diplomatic when you talk to each other. -- in ACAS. There are certain

:23:06.:23:12.

MPs, such as Joe Cox, who sent out an e-mail to her local Labour Party

:23:13.:23:17.

that she had put the knife into Jeremy Corbyn. These people should

:23:18.:23:22.

be called in to see the whip. This behaviour is absolutely

:23:23.:23:25.

preposterous. We've had a decent set of election results and need to get

:23:26.:23:29.

behind Jeremy. Should people be pulled up in front of the leadership

:23:30.:23:34.

and his team to respond, and ask why the article was written the day

:23:35.:23:37.

after the election 's? In fairness to Joe-macro and meal, both of whom

:23:38.:23:46.

nominated Jeremy, they said that they had waited until after polling

:23:47.:23:50.

day because they didn't want to do anything to undermine our campaign

:23:51.:23:55.

on the ground. They are entitled to speak their mind. There was an issue

:23:56.:24:01.

as to how we conduct this debate. It was regrettable John Donnell taking

:24:02.:24:05.

to Twitter. I just put it down to him having a long weekend... -- John

:24:06.:24:12.

McDonnell. It's long hours that people work. You were also adding to

:24:13.:24:20.

this view. Don't forget that Jeremy Corbyn defined his leadership at the

:24:21.:24:23.

party conference saying that he wanted a new type of politics where

:24:24.:24:27.

you can have debate and even room for a bit of dissent. Not

:24:28.:24:33.

unreasonable for someone who voted against a Labour Party leader more

:24:34.:24:39.

times than a Conservative leader. It is slightly hard to bear, this kind

:24:40.:24:42.

of disloyalty. What ever side you came from in the leadership, all of

:24:43.:24:46.

us in the Labour Party have to come together and reflect on the results.

:24:47.:24:51.

You can contrast London and Scotland, say, and I think you can

:24:52.:24:56.

learn lessons from both. You can take the positives from London and

:24:57.:24:59.

say, what kind of campaign and message did we have there? We were

:25:00.:25:04.

out of our comfort zone and were not just talking to ourselves and

:25:05.:25:08.

mobilising the base, but reaching out the people who devoted

:25:09.:25:11.

Conservative and not voted Labour before. We had a hideous momentum

:25:12.:25:21.

hard left experience, where we were going on a left-wing anti-Trident...

:25:22.:25:26.

Footing anti-Trident in your manifesto, which is itself evidently

:25:27.:25:31.

anti-jobs in Scotland, surprise surprise, that ended up in absolute

:25:32.:25:35.

disaster. There's lessons from the good and the bad that we have to

:25:36.:25:44.

learn here. Let's put that to Sam. A Trident party just won a third term

:25:45.:25:48.

in government. We need to have a serious discussion with the trade

:25:49.:25:51.

unions about Trident and about those jobs. I agree with Michael that it

:25:52.:25:56.

shouldn't be the centre of our discussion. But to say that it isn't

:25:57.:26:01.

a popular position in Scotland is bonkers. The SNP have been one of

:26:02.:26:07.

the most positive risk campaigning organisations in Scotland against

:26:08.:26:09.

Trident, and they just wiped us out in the last election. Michael, you

:26:10.:26:16.

want to respond. You are bonkers! The truth is, Jeremy said a year ago

:26:17.:26:22.

that he felt that the situation we have in Scotland is, being very

:26:23.:26:30.

straightforward, all we needed was a hard left, anti-austerity,

:26:31.:26:33.

anti-Trident left-wing message, and he said it would be his top priority

:26:34.:26:38.

and he was convinced of victory. Actually, we went backwards and we

:26:39.:26:44.

finished behind the Conservatives in third place. We've got huge lessons

:26:45.:26:48.

to learn in Scotland, and equally lessons to learn in areas we did

:26:49.:26:54.

well. We fought a lot of ultra campaigns in places like Exeter. The

:26:55.:26:57.

Sadiq campaign in London was very different to many others. Jeremy was

:26:58.:27:04.

right to say we have on, or hold on, as John McDonnell said, but that

:27:05.:27:09.

should not be the pinnacle of our ambition a year after an election.

:27:10.:27:13.

11% went against us in any of that in Nuneaton. Darby, Thurrock, those

:27:14.:27:21.

areas went against us, areas that are critical. It is much harder in a

:27:22.:27:26.

general election. This is about as good as it will get for Labour. We

:27:27.:27:32.

have a Tory party in disarray. There was nothing on Thursday, I put to

:27:33.:27:38.

you, to suggest that you would have any chance of winning in 2020,

:27:39.:27:45.

however you look at the results. I think that addressing the issue of

:27:46.:27:50.

Scotland, the reality is that we got smashed under Jim Murphy in

:27:51.:27:55.

Scotland. And you went backwards in these elections. It isn't about

:27:56.:28:01.

right or left in Scotland, it's about constitutional politics.

:28:02.:28:05.

Michael is muddying the water. Everything is seen through a

:28:06.:28:08.

different prism there. I know there is a slight delay on the line, but

:28:09.:28:13.

can I ask you to answer the question. What evidence was there

:28:14.:28:17.

from the results on Thursday that says to you, we are on course to win

:28:18.:28:24.

as the Labour Party in 2020? I think, on the local government

:28:25.:28:28.

elections, places like Crawley, some of the issues we had around

:28:29.:28:33.

Nuneaton... Some people said we would be hammered in those

:28:34.:28:37.

elections. These are some key areas. You also think of Harlow, an area

:28:38.:28:42.

near where I'm from. People there are saying that what Jeremy is

:28:43.:28:48.

saying has resonance for them. His economic message is really, really

:28:49.:28:54.

powerful to those people. But Labour did lose seats, didn't they? The

:28:55.:28:58.

huge result in Bristol and in London... There's no point beating

:28:59.:29:03.

around the bush. The reality is, there is a firm aims to build on for

:29:04.:29:10.

stop there is a very, very high number of councillors in 2012. In

:29:11.:29:16.

Bristol, 63%, with the Greens knocked out the park. In London,

:29:17.:29:21.

Jeremy is tremendously popular as well as Sadiq. That double

:29:22.:29:26.

combination, that double popularity, delivered as one of the best results

:29:27.:29:30.

we will probably ever have in London. Do you think the party is

:29:31.:29:36.

heading for a electoral disaster in 2020? Do you think they will win?

:29:37.:29:42.

You have lost Scotland. Many would argue that is a humiliating defeat,

:29:43.:29:47.

to go into third place. At what point do you stop being a protest

:29:48.:29:54.

movement, in your words? At what point do you do something about it?

:29:55.:29:58.

In these immediate days about those set of elections, we need to learn

:29:59.:30:03.

from them. Including places like Bristol where we did well, and

:30:04.:30:09.

places that we hung on but went backwards, and significantly so. We

:30:10.:30:14.

have serious lessons to learn. The idea that we are on a trajectory to

:30:15.:30:18.

winning the election at the moment would be in defiance of all history.

:30:19.:30:23.

We've got to be honest about that. Also, let's talk to the voters out

:30:24.:30:28.

there, rather than just doing the meetings will be packed out the room

:30:29.:30:32.

and we all agree, and we delude ourselves that something is

:30:33.:30:35.

happening out there, they are queueing around the corner. The

:30:36.:30:43.

voters in many places did not share the same enthusiasm with ours as

:30:44.:30:46.

some of our members do. We have huge lessons to learn. And any sensible

:30:47.:30:51.

party would do that after nationwide elections in every corner of the

:30:52.:30:52.

country. Let me turn briefly to the mayoral

:30:53.:31:03.

campaign. As you will have heard on the radio and on TV there were many

:31:04.:31:09.

complaints about Zac Goldsmith's campaign run by the Lynton Crosby

:31:10.:31:12.

team. Do you now regret the way it was run. E I think Zac was an

:31:13.:31:21.

exceptionally good candidate. I am not convinced the campaign showed

:31:22.:31:24.

all his virtues in their highest colour. I think to that extent, that

:31:25.:31:30.

was a pity. Very often after campaigns have taken place they are

:31:31.:31:35.

judged retrospectively. If you have a campaign that wins everyone says

:31:36.:31:37.

it must have been a brilliant campaign. And I think most however

:31:38.:31:42.

good the campaign it would have been very hard to win in London. Right

:31:43.:31:48.

but this is about the tone of the campaign, it was called dog whistle

:31:49.:31:51.

politics by many politicians on Friday when I was covering the

:31:52.:31:56.

elections and the aftermath. We can show you pictures of Lynton Crosby,

:31:57.:32:00.

the strategist in the general election, his team ran the Goldsmith

:32:01.:32:04.

campaign and he was then awarded a knighthood. We can show you the

:32:05.:32:09.

pictures now. To receive the honour of might and Sir Lynton Crosby for

:32:10.:32:17.

political service. Was it not unfortunate timing that he should be

:32:18.:32:20.

receiving a knighthood, the man accused, perhaps not personally but

:32:21.:32:28.

his team, of running a racist campaign? If I do not think it was

:32:29.:32:33.

racist. That was deeply unfair. Some people thought it was. People always

:32:34.:32:38.

fill political mad. They always attack the campaign of the opposite

:32:39.:32:43.

party. Reasonable thing to do. I don't think it was racist. Lynton

:32:44.:32:47.

Crosby is a distinguished strategist and played an important role in the

:32:48.:32:51.

general election. I think that he thoroughly deserved his knighthood

:32:52.:32:55.

and should probably get an even higher knighthood. Briefly, Michael

:32:56.:33:01.

Dugher? That Labour campaign should give the Labour Party nationally in

:33:02.:33:04.

on us encouragement and help. I don't believe the next general

:33:05.:33:09.

election is lost. I think it is in our hands. I think Sadiq showed us

:33:10.:33:14.

that if you have a campaign rooted in the centre ground, dignified,

:33:15.:33:19.

with practical policies that command popular support, we have the strong

:33:20.:33:24.

leadership Sadiq showed an anti-Semitism I think it shows that

:33:25.:33:28.

when Labour riches beyond our base we can win. We should take enormous

:33:29.:33:33.

encouragement from that and we can do it despite a hostile Tory media

:33:34.:33:37.

and all the Tory money and all the Tory strategists in the world. Thank

:33:38.:33:45.

you. Supporters say it will save lives,

:33:46.:33:47.

promote healthy living, discourage But has the transformation

:33:48.:33:49.

of the streets of London and other major cities for the benefit

:33:50.:33:53.

of cyclists gone too far? Well, the broadcaster and writer

:33:54.:33:55.

Janet Street-Porter thinks so. The wonderful city of London

:33:56.:33:57.

was once a pleasure to walk through, but it has been brought to its knees

:33:58.:34:10.

all Until just a few weeks ago,

:34:11.:34:13.

our capital resembled a Roads were dug up and

:34:14.:34:21.

rebuilt to make way for a In Bristol, segregated cycling lanes

:34:22.:34:26.

have appeared and work on a similar scheme is near completion

:34:27.:34:39.

in Manchester. Plans for expansion in Edinburgh

:34:40.:34:42.

have been met by protests While cyclists breeze

:34:43.:34:44.

through the city with little regard for anyone else, roads like this

:34:45.:34:59.

have been reduced It makes life vile for

:35:00.:35:01.

pedestrians, who have had to Why should cyclists get preferential

:35:02.:35:05.

treatment over pedestrians? What about the very

:35:06.:35:11.

young, the elderly, People who may not want

:35:12.:35:12.

to or be able to cycle? People who cannot use public

:35:13.:35:20.

transport? Riding a bike is subject to

:35:21.:35:26.

the rules and many London cyclists cannot even keep to

:35:27.:35:28.

those, whether it's stopping at a red light

:35:29.:35:31.

or They aren't legally

:35:32.:35:34.

compelled to wear a helmet and there

:35:35.:35:41.

is no MOT for bikes. Cyclists won't even have

:35:42.:35:43.

to use these highways

:35:44.:35:44.

when they are finished. They can still risk

:35:45.:35:46.

life on the open road. I thought that we lived

:35:47.:35:49.

in a democracy, but it seems that in this city, cyclists have

:35:50.:35:53.

more clout than anyone else. Isn't it about time

:35:54.:35:57.

the rest of us stood up for our rights and told cyclists

:35:58.:36:01.

that roads are also for buses, cars, But I suspect the cyclists

:36:02.:36:06.

won't be happy until all other forms of

:36:07.:36:12.

transport are eradicated. And we're joined now

:36:13.:36:22.

by Janet, and also by Andrew Gilligan who was -

:36:23.:36:24.

until yesterday - Welcome to both of you. Janet,

:36:25.:36:34.

cycling takes pressure, you could argue, off congested roads and it

:36:35.:36:37.

means people can use other forms of transport. Is that such a bad thing?

:36:38.:36:43.

Let me say from the outset that in my original Colin said I that I like

:36:44.:36:49.

cycling and our own a bike -- in my column. What I said was that the

:36:50.:36:54.

cycling superhighways have caused inordinate traffic congestion. I

:36:55.:36:58.

simply pointed out that riding a bike, especially some like London,

:36:59.:37:04.

seems to have very few rules and regulations about it. People can

:37:05.:37:08.

rent Boris backs, although I know they were brought in by Ken

:37:09.:37:13.

You don't have to wear a helmet or pass a driving test and people are

:37:14.:37:18.

routinely texting and taking selfie 's and so on. More importantly they

:37:19.:37:23.

are not compelled to use the cycling lanes. That is the important point.

:37:24.:37:27.

You have spent all this time and money on cycling lanes, they may be

:37:28.:37:31.

a great idea, although not if the body uses them. The main cycling

:37:32.:37:38.

path is two minutes from this building, have you seen it? Guess,

:37:39.:37:45.

although not everyone uses it. Almost at opening it was almost

:37:46.:37:49.

overcrowded. All through the day. When I saw and it was empty.

:37:50.:37:53.

Tourists were using and without any crash helmets, taking photographs of

:37:54.:37:59.

themselves in front of Big Ben. The point of cycle lanes is to create a

:38:00.:38:02.

safe space where you don't need to crash helmets. Why are they not

:38:03.:38:08.

compulsory? If they are in a safe space, which I agree with, in a

:38:09.:38:13.

segregated when you're safe, why they're not compulsory because you

:38:14.:38:15.

still see cyclists veering all over the road the pavements. They are

:38:16.:38:23.

not, you could see that behind you when you were filming. Now the lanes

:38:24.:38:28.

open everyone is using them and you are showing that a lot of the

:38:29.:38:32.

objections are not founded. Andrew, when we last spoke about this on the

:38:33.:38:36.

London Politics show on Sunday we showed a tip-off that film,

:38:37.:38:43.

admittedly, it was empty and we saw cyclists using alternatives. All I

:38:44.:38:47.

am saying is, are you sure they will be used? If they don't have to use

:38:48.:38:51.

them, they won't necessarily. We don't need to argue, two minutes

:38:52.:38:57.

outside this building you will see them. I lived for ten years in

:38:58.:39:02.

central London and cyclists go all over the road and all over the

:39:03.:39:06.

pavement. Leaving aside this and the highways, cyclists are not compelled

:39:07.:39:11.

to stick to one part of the road. This kind of discussion is an

:39:12.:39:15.

example of the lack of rationality about the debate in cycling. The

:39:16.:39:20.

lack of rationality is Boris saying he wanted ?12 50 allocated per

:39:21.:39:26.

London on cycling. You are not allocating bad for pedestrians. We

:39:27.:39:29.

are arguing about whether something is happening or not, we can see it

:39:30.:39:32.

happening two minutes from this building, these cycle lanes are

:39:33.:39:38.

hugely changing the market, changing cycling from being a pursuit we'll

:39:39.:39:42.

have to dress up in like and act aggressively, you see kids and

:39:43.:39:45.

families coming out for a ride in the sunshine and they are working.

:39:46.:39:50.

The fact is that we have 10,000 people a month in the population of

:39:51.:39:55.

London and the only way to cope with that is either build more roads,

:39:56.:40:00.

politically and physically impossible, or realign the roads to

:40:01.:40:03.

make better use of them by encouraging forms of transport like

:40:04.:40:09.

cycles which take up less space. Is that not the reality, Janet, you

:40:10.:40:12.

have raised the point that more money is being spent on cycling and

:40:13.:40:15.

the infrastructure because it is the only viable option if you are

:40:16.:40:19.

looking to the future, because it would be able to build more roads,

:40:20.:40:22.

you can only fit a certain number of cars. We haven't got a fully rounded

:40:23.:40:29.

transport policy, we have built cycling superhighways but we have

:40:30.:40:32.

three moved about one third of the road space through the middle of

:40:33.:40:36.

London but we have not come up with a comprehensive strategy to make

:40:37.:40:40.

lorries only use roads at certain times of day. We have not told

:40:41.:40:44.

drivers that they will be penalised or can only come in and out at

:40:45.:40:49.

certain times and we have not increased pedestrian areas. What I

:40:50.:40:52.

am saying is, if you give one third of the road to cyclists you must

:40:53.:40:56.

work out how to use the other two thirds so it isn't blocked because a

:40:57.:41:01.

quality in London has gone right down. -- gridlocked. 1500 miles of

:41:02.:41:10.

main road and with that cycle lanes on 12 miles. Janet wrote in an

:41:11.:41:16.

article the other week that it had brought London to its knees. How can

:41:17.:41:20.

that be true. As an example of hysterical rhetoric. It is not

:41:21.:41:25.

hysterical, I am a Londoner and I go through central London. It has made

:41:26.:41:33.

journeys slower. It is gridlock! That is has low it is. Vast majority

:41:34.:41:39.

of Londoners never drive. Never drive in London. You are saying that

:41:40.:41:47.

unless people cycle there is no future... Let me turn to the other

:41:48.:41:51.

guests, has the balance been tipped to far in favour of the cyclists or

:41:52.:41:56.

is this the way to go? On days like this I am glad I am not the Shadow

:41:57.:42:03.

Transport Secretary! On your bike! There's an element of hysteria on

:42:04.:42:07.

both sides. That is not how good transport policy should be made. It

:42:08.:42:11.

doesn't reflect the way that individuals transport themselves

:42:12.:42:17.

around the place. Most people are not cyclists or motorists, most

:42:18.:42:22.

people are multimodal. They use a number of different ways to get

:42:23.:42:28.

around. And you need a system. That is why organisations like Living

:42:29.:42:32.

Streets, that do a lot for pedestrians in terms of looking how

:42:33.:42:35.

to manage the roads, the roads are there for everyone. It is good news

:42:36.:42:40.

that we are expanding the number of people cycling and the ability to do

:42:41.:42:44.

that come equally we must recognise the importance of our London cabs

:42:45.:42:48.

and everything else. We must recognise that London is different

:42:49.:42:52.

to Barnsley or other sides of the country. Whose side are you on,

:42:53.:43:00.

don't you cycle? I don't cycle. I am on Janet's side. She is spot on.

:43:01.:43:05.

It's gone too far towards the cyclist Amber Rudd constant steps to

:43:06.:43:08.

make things more difficult for the motorist. Lots of roads narrowed at

:43:09.:43:12.

junctions to make it harder to get volumes through, very short time at

:43:13.:43:17.

traffic lights. Hostility to the motorist. That includes the cab

:43:18.:43:21.

driver. Cab drivers find it very tough in their business and part of

:43:22.:43:26.

that is because they journeys are slow. Are we strangling one of the

:43:27.:43:31.

lifelines of London? The assumption in this conversation is that the

:43:32.:43:35.

card is massively important to transport in London. Janet, forgive

:43:36.:43:41.

me, I did speak about the level of language in this debate and you are

:43:42.:43:46.

showing at! The problem is that the vast majority of Londoners

:43:47.:43:51.

literally, 71% of them, never drive in central London and only 3% of

:43:52.:43:55.

them tried in central London everyday yet they get the majority

:43:56.:43:59.

of the road space. What we are doing is fractionally reallocating road

:44:00.:44:03.

space to the majority of Londoners who don't drive including

:44:04.:44:10.

pedestrians. Very briefly. It ought to be the percentage of journeys by

:44:11.:44:19.

car being done. You've got to include taxis... 1.3 million people

:44:20.:44:28.

come into central London everyday. I'm going to finish it there and you

:44:29.:44:34.

can all leave on your respective modes of transport! Thank you, thank

:44:35.:44:35.

you rematch. -- very much. It's a busy week for our

:44:36.:44:42.

parliamentarians this week, let's see what they've got

:44:43.:44:44.

to look forward to. Coming up this afternoon,

:44:45.:44:47.

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt will face a grilling

:44:48.:44:48.

from the Health Select Committee on the impact

:44:49.:44:50.

of the Comprehensive Spending Review He'll be expecting some questions

:44:51.:44:52.

on junior doctors' contracts too. of the Parliamentary Labour Party

:44:53.:44:56.

and it should be interesting. Both Jeremy Corbyn and Sadiq Khan

:44:57.:45:00.

will address MPs, London's new mayor has previously tried to distance

:45:01.:45:03.

himself from the Labour leader. Tomorrow the great and good

:45:04.:45:05.

of Parliament will be in their smartest gear to decamp

:45:06.:45:07.

to Buckingham Palace to attend a reception with the Queen

:45:08.:45:10.

to celebrate her 90th birthday. Prepare for lots of

:45:11.:45:12.

Europe-related financial statistics on Wednesday as first

:45:13.:45:14.

Gordon Brown makes his first speech of the referendum campaign,

:45:15.:45:17.

and then George Osborne addresses the economic costs and benefits

:45:18.:45:20.

of staying in the EU at a session On Thursday we'll find out

:45:21.:45:24.

what the government has in store for the BBC

:45:25.:45:29.

as Culture Secretary John Whittingdale publishes

:45:30.:45:31.

the Government's White Paper Also on Thursday David Cameron

:45:32.:45:33.

will host the world's first international anti-corruption

:45:34.:45:38.

summit in London. Following the recent scandal over

:45:39.:45:41.

the Panama papers the Prime Minister hopes to regain the initiative

:45:42.:45:45.

and come up with an international We're joined now by Isabel Hardman

:45:46.:45:48.

of the Spectator and Rafael Welcome to you both. Isabel Hardman,

:45:49.:46:06.

first of all the EU referendum. The spectre of war has been unleashed in

:46:07.:46:12.

this debate. What will be left in the armoury of Leave and Remain in

:46:13.:46:17.

the coming weeks? It is worrying that we have also -- already reached

:46:18.:46:22.

war in the scaremongering tactics! When I first saw the headlines of

:46:23.:46:26.

David Cameron's speech, I thought the papers had overwritten it, but

:46:27.:46:32.

then I realised that he was overwriting his own warning. Surely

:46:33.:46:35.

it makes him look quite desperate, at this stage of the campaign, to be

:46:36.:46:40.

warning that voting to leave would cause war in Europe. I don't

:46:41.:46:47.

entirely agree with that. It lends itself to caricature and satire as

:46:48.:46:53.

this bulging sere thing, the Prime Minister and the remaining camp are

:46:54.:46:56.

trying to do. But you get the sense that people on the remaining side

:46:57.:47:01.

are impressing on people that there are risks, that it is dangerous, and

:47:02.:47:10.

for people in the Leave side to avoid acknowledging there are

:47:11.:47:14.

risks... Ultimately, sticking with the status quo is kind of a win for

:47:15.:47:20.

the Prime Minister and the Remain campaign. The junior doctors are

:47:21.:47:27.

back to the negotiating table. And prospects for success. Neither side

:47:28.:47:32.

seems keen to back down yet. The talks is a way for them to

:47:33.:47:36.

re-engage, but the dispute has become so personal, and some of the

:47:37.:47:41.

language being used has offended doctors so badly, it is very

:47:42.:47:44.

difficult to see how they can reach agreement. And publication for

:47:45.:47:51.

statistics -- of statistics by Jeremy Hunt has not helped him much.

:47:52.:47:56.

This idea that more patients die at weekends has been challenged for a

:47:57.:48:01.

second time, suggesting that his key assumption is based on flawed dent.

:48:02.:48:05.

They are saying that when the Department for health analysed and

:48:06.:48:13.

said that more people were being dying at the weekend, that there was

:48:14.:48:18.

some sort of fudging going on, as people being admitted at the weekend

:48:19.:48:23.

were being logged as emergency cases. The government's response to

:48:24.:48:28.

this was that there were other studies and broader evidence that

:48:29.:48:31.

suggested that you didn't want to get admitted to hospital at the

:48:32.:48:36.

weekend. The wider problem here is that the government sees the junior

:48:37.:48:41.

doctors still as negotiating in bad faith a bit. They see the BMA

:48:42.:48:45.

position and the junior doctor permission -- position is being over

:48:46.:48:52.

politicised. That they don't want anything on public sector reform,

:48:53.:48:58.

and that junior doctors, C in Jeremy Hunt this sort of Thatcherite

:48:59.:49:02.

posturing and saying, you are just trying to smash ours. It is so

:49:03.:49:07.

polarised it is hard to see how you will get agreement. Let's talk about

:49:08.:49:12.

another potential row, which is the BBC and John Whittingdale's

:49:13.:49:15.

long-awaited proposals this week. What are you expecting? Isabel, can

:49:16.:49:26.

you hear me? She seems to have lost her earpiece. Broadly speaking,

:49:27.:49:31.

there will be an attempt to change the government 's structure of the

:49:32.:49:38.

BBC. It happens from time to time that the BBC gets its mandate to be

:49:39.:49:41.

the public sector broadcaster renewed. The problem is that the

:49:42.:49:48.

critics see this always as a sort of opportunity for the government to

:49:49.:49:52.

say that they don't like the fact that there is this massive

:49:53.:49:55.

broadcaster funded essentially by attacks on everyone. They might

:49:56.:50:01.

ideologically use this opportunity to bully the BBC, or to break it up

:50:02.:50:10.

for another political objective. The government try to deny that and say

:50:11.:50:14.

that they are going to move with The Times. Isabel, not sure if you can

:50:15.:50:18.

hear me now, but I'm afraid it's goodbye! Sorry! Next time.

:50:19.:50:23.

Let's just pick up on one of those stories -

:50:24.:50:26.

the White Paper on the BBC expected out this week - well,

:50:27.:50:29.

last night a string of Bafta winners used the opportunity of the awards

:50:30.:50:32.

ceremony to mount a defence of the Corporation and Channel 4.

:50:33.:50:34.

The BBC and Channel 4, which they are also attempting

:50:35.:50:37.

to eviscerate, is the envy of the world, and we

:50:38.:50:39.

should stand up and fight for it, not let it go by default.

:50:40.:50:42.

If we don't, blink, and it will be gone.

:50:43.:50:47.

There will be no more Wolf Halls, no more award-winning Dispatches

:50:48.:50:51.

documentaries on Channel 4, just a broadcasting landscape

:50:52.:50:54.

where the only determinant of whether something gets made

:50:55.:50:57.

is whether it's likely to line the pockets of its shareholders.

:50:58.:51:00.

Strong words there. Jacob Rees-Mogg, you are going to have a fight on

:51:01.:51:16.

your hands. Will you be joining the 20 Tories who will be opposing the

:51:17.:51:20.

recommendations? I cannot oppose them until they know what they are.

:51:21.:51:25.

I don't know what he's going to say. We know vaguely the sort of areas

:51:26.:51:30.

he's going to be looking at. Personally, I think the BBC is going

:51:31.:51:35.

to make a big mistake in wanting to remain entirely dependent on licence

:51:36.:51:40.

fee funding. It really ought to look at subscription to iPad and things

:51:41.:51:45.

like that to get more revenue. Since 1990, the BBC's revenues have gone

:51:46.:51:51.

up broadly in line with inflation, and sky's has gone from nothing up

:51:52.:51:58.

to I think about ?10 billion. The BBC's soul and major source of

:51:59.:52:02.

funding is the licence fee, and it needs to work out a scheme of how it

:52:03.:52:08.

can compete globally, and I think it is missing that opportunity. Critics

:52:09.:52:12.

would say, listening to those BAFTA winners, that they would say that.

:52:13.:52:18.

Those programmes were published by the BBC. It is not actually in

:52:19.:52:23.

defence of the programmes that they do or the corporation. It is in

:52:24.:52:26.

defence of the whole of the creative industries of the UK that generate

:52:27.:52:32.

enormous economic wealth for this country. That is something we are

:52:33.:52:35.

losing sight of in this politicised debate that the government has been

:52:36.:52:40.

deliberately stoking up. People abroad will look at the date we are

:52:41.:52:44.

having about the BBC and think we are nuts. We have got something that

:52:45.:52:49.

is the jewel in the crown of our creative industries in the UK. Take

:52:50.:52:55.

a campaign like Let It B, showing how important it is to maintain a

:52:56.:53:00.

world beating music industry in this country. There is a lot at stake

:53:01.:53:06.

here. We will find out more later in the week, seeing as you are being

:53:07.:53:11.

so-called about it! Nobody tells me anything about these things.

:53:12.:53:13.

It is a familiar story in some of the more beautiful

:53:14.:53:16.

Local families priced out of the housing market by rich city

:53:17.:53:19.

dwellers eager to buy a second-home by the seaside for use

:53:20.:53:22.

And the problem is no more accurate than the Cornish town of St Ives,

:53:23.:53:26.

where around a quarter of the residential property is owned

:53:27.:53:29.

But the town council is fighting back and in a referendum last week,

:53:30.:53:33.

83% of residents backed a plan to restrict ownership

:53:34.:53:36.

The town's mayor in Linda Taylor who is in our Truro studio.

:53:37.:53:45.

Thank you for joining us on the Daily Politics. How do you plan to

:53:46.:53:52.

restrict second home ownership? It's going to be done either way of a

:53:53.:53:59.

covenant will be placed on the property. Could I just correct you.

:54:00.:54:04.

The turnout was 42.7%, of which 83% of that vote was in favour. So how

:54:05.:54:14.

would it work? New properties will have this covenant put on them so

:54:15.:54:20.

that they are for primary use only, or the place where somebody will

:54:21.:54:24.

spend most of their time. We could also ask to see that they are

:54:25.:54:30.

registered on the electoral roll. It is only for new properties. It isn't

:54:31.:54:35.

a retrospective planning decision, and it doesn't apply to the older

:54:36.:54:40.

property stocks. What has been the reaction to those specific

:54:41.:54:43.

proposals, and to holding the referendum in the first place? First

:54:44.:54:48.

of all, the town are overjoyed that so many people came out to give such

:54:49.:54:55.

a strong mandate to carry forward on the proposals. The neighbourhood

:54:56.:55:00.

plan isn't all about the H2 primary residence policy, it does have a lot

:55:01.:55:04.

of other points that we want to care for in relation to the town. The

:55:05.:55:12.

media reaction throughout the UK and worldwide has been absolutely and

:55:13.:55:15.

almost. St Ives is not alone with this problem. Everybody is looking

:55:16.:55:22.

forward to seeing how our referendum will develop over the next months

:55:23.:55:27.

and years. So all eyes are on you, no doubt in similar places across

:55:28.:55:32.

the UK. Do you think it will be taken up in other similar areas or

:55:33.:55:38.

seaside towns? That will have to be done by the community. Our

:55:39.:55:42.

neighbourhood plan was led and driven by the community, but I would

:55:43.:55:47.

not be at also prized if this doesn't give huge encouragement to

:55:48.:55:54.

other communities to try and follow through on our H2 policy. What is

:55:55.:55:59.

your response, Jacob Rees-Mogg? Are you on the side of those who want to

:56:00.:56:04.

restrict local home ownership or the property developers? I am on the

:56:05.:56:08.

side of the property developers. I think it is a Luddite approach to

:56:09.:56:12.

limit people buying homes if they want to. If supply and demand don't

:56:13.:56:22.

meet, prices will rise. People who go in and bring revenue to the area,

:56:23.:56:27.

the enforcement is very difficult... Will use by on people to see how

:56:28.:56:32.

many areas -- how many hours they spend there? Having free ownership

:56:33.:56:37.

of this -- property in this country is something we have enjoyed for

:56:38.:56:43.

thousands of years. It is a foolish approach, it will be damaging

:56:44.:56:46.

economically, it will be bad for the property market in the long-term,

:56:47.:56:50.

and you will have two tiers of property. You will have some houses

:56:51.:56:55.

that have a boom, you will have others that are at a different

:56:56.:56:58.

price, you will have enforcement problems... It is a really bad idea.

:56:59.:57:05.

You can tell he's not a fan of your plan, Linda Taylor, and you are a

:57:06.:57:12.

Luddite. That is unfortunate term to use for the mayor of sent eyes. I

:57:13.:57:16.

feel that the neighbourhood plan would sit incredibly well in our

:57:17.:57:24.

community. -- the Mayor of St Ives. We do not underestimate the

:57:25.:57:27.

contribution that the visitor and the second home owner makes to our

:57:28.:57:31.

economy. We can work together on this and I know that it will work.

:57:32.:57:36.

The Conservative housing minister, Brandon Lewis, also doesn't like

:57:37.:57:40.

your plan. What do you say to him? We haven't just done this... We have

:57:41.:57:49.

had to work closely with the council and their legal team, and at every

:57:50.:57:53.

stage we have worked very closely until we have got to the point that

:57:54.:57:58.

this referendum could go out to vote. We have followed all the legal

:57:59.:58:02.

steps. Cousin something always happens doesn't mean it always makes

:58:03.:58:07.

it right. Perhaps St Ives will push the legal boundaries. If people want

:58:08.:58:14.

it. The turnout was 43% and the majority was in favour of the plan.

:58:15.:58:19.

Isn't it up to local people? We make our laws nationally. Isn't it about

:58:20.:58:29.

devolving? It is a national statute, property, and that is quite right.

:58:30.:58:33.

Doing it on planning is an abuse of the planning system.

:58:34.:58:35.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:36.:58:39.

The question was which of these Ruth Davidson photo

:58:40.:58:41.

A) Riding a snowspeeder b) Playing ice hockey

:58:42.:58:44.

c) On a logflume or d) Riding a buffalo

:58:45.:58:46.

It's the log flume! That's the one I meant! That's correct. Look at you!

:58:47.:59:05.

So indignant! Thank you very much to Linda there in St Ives,

:59:06.:59:07.

The Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg and Labour's Michael Dugher keep Jo Coburn company throughout the programme. They examine the fallout from last Thursday's election campaign and look ahead to the EU referendum. Janet Street-Porter and London's Cycling commissioner Andrew Gilligan come on to debate whether cyclists in towns and cities have too much power, and there's a look ahead to the week in politics with the Spectator's Isabel Hardman and Rafael Behr from the Guardian.


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