Browse content similar to 10/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
Iain Duncan Smith turns up the volume in the referendum campaign - | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
laying into the European Union and saying the EU has become | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
After another primary school test is leaked, | :00:47. | :00:54. | |
the Department for Education says there's an active campaign | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
to undermine the Government's school reforms in England. | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
Almost 20 years after the Battle of Knutsford Heath, former | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
Conservative MP, Neil Hamilton, returns to elected office | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
with a seat in the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff. | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
And 75 years ago today, German planes bombed the Houses | :01:10. | :01:19. | |
of Parliament, destroying the House of Commons' Chamber, | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
in the Luftwaffe's biggest air raid on London during the Blitz. | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the whole | :01:25. | :01:34. | |
of the programme today, one of the Labour Party's big | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
beasts, David Blunkett, a former Home Secretary, | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
Work and Pensions Secretary and Education Secretary. | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
We'll look at Iain Duncan Smith's big speech on the EU | :01:44. | :01:57. | |
First, though, let's take a look at the problems facing | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
Yesterday the Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan, faced questions | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
in the House of Commons over her decision to scrap a plan | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
to force all schools in England to become academies. | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
And this morning the DfE said there is an "active | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
campaign" by people opposed to the Government's schools reforms | :02:12. | :02:13. | |
to undermine primary school testing, after another SATs exam | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
We'll get the latest on that in a moment. | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
First, here's Nick Morgan explaining the u-turn on academies yesterday. | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
Academies are the vehicle which allow schools and leaders | :02:27. | :02:28. | |
to innovate with the curriculum, have the flexibility to set the pay | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
and conditions for their staff and bring about greater | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
We still want every school to become an academy by 2022. | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
However, we understand the concerns that have been raised about a hard | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
deadline and legislating for blanket powers to issue academy orders. | :02:43. | :02:50. | |
That is why, Mr Speaker, I announced on Friday, | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
that we have decided it is not necessary to take blanket powers | :02:54. | :02:55. | |
to convert good schools in strong local authorities to academies | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
What she announced on Friday was a significant and | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
However she wants to dress it up, dropping her desire to force | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
all schools to become academies, by her arbitrary deadline of 2022, | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
School leaders should take it as a very clear signal | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
that the foot is off their throat and they shouldn't feel they need | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
That was the Shadow Education Secretary, Lucy Powell, in the House | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
This morning Ms Powell was on the attack again, | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
demanding an apology from Nicky Morgan over the latest | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
Ellie Price is across this story, and joins me now. | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
What has happened exactly? Well this is a spelling, punctuation and | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
grammar test aimed at 10 and 11-year-olds. 600,000 of them are | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
due to take the test this morning and it was leaked online. If all | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
this is sounding rather familiar it is because something similar | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
happened about three weeks ago. The Department for Education this | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
morning say they are blaming a rogue marker who leaked it online, someone | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
who would have had access to the tests for marking purposes. They say | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
it shows there is now clear evidence there is an active campaign by those | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
people "opposed to our reforms to undermine these tests." There are | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
people who are opposed to the tests. A number of teachers, the National | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
Union of Teachers, are saying the wrong tests at the wrong time and | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
should be scrapped this year. As you mentioned, Labour also suggesting | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
these tests are wrong and today's leak was a further body blow to | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
parents and teacher confidence in how the primary testing regime is | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
working. This morning the Schools Minister, Nick Gibb answered an | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
urgent question until the Commons, he insisted the culprit will be | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
found and the breach will be investigated but that the Government | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
testing regime is sound. Testing is a vatal part of teaching. It is the | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
most accurate way, bar none, that a teacher, school or parent, can know | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
whether a pupil has or has not understood vital subject content. | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
What is more, the process of taking a test actually improves pupil | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
knowledge and understanding. Now that was all in Parliament this | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
morning but there has been 50,000 parent who signed an online petition | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
against these tests. And you may remember, jo, you and I spoke about | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
it last week when there were a number of parents who took their | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
children out of school in protest against thoot tests all around the | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
country. -- against these tests. So unpopular with some parents around | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
the country. Now these tests have gone ahead this morning. The | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
Government insisting that the integrity of them hasn't been | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
breached, that actually only around 90 people would have had access to | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
them and that eessentially they wouldn't have been - it wouldn't be | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
too easy to cheat these online. As I say, the tests have gone ahead but | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
certainly plenty of a row surround everything and one does wonder | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
whether the words, debacle or sabotage will be in that test taken | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
by 10 and 11-year-olds this morning. Let's get your reaction, David | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
Blunkett, do you think it is Saab tong is blaming the educational | :06:16. | :06:17. | |
establishment for a rogue marker fair? I think in -- sabotage I think | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
in politics we are subject to paranoia and persecution complex. I | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
understand given the debacle that this particular regime should feel | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
that's the case with them. What has happened is different to last time. | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
Last time the actual exam papers had been put out and some of the | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
youngster has been able to see it and some of the tables able to teach | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
to it. This time, as I understand t we are talking about the marking | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
scheme. The marking scheme should have gone out after the exam papers, | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
not with the exam papers. Obviously the exam papers have to go out | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
before the test is set, but the marking scheme that has gone to the | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
markers, many of whom are teachers, who are teaching in the field, they | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
have to be, should have gone out afterwards. I don't know what has | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
happened with Pearsons or whether Ofqual, the regulator has a grip of | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
this or whether the department is going on, all I know it is one thing | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
after another after another. But you think it is cock-up rather than | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
conspiracy in that sense? I would work on that. I just caution Nicky | :07:23. | :07:29. | |
Morgan and Nick Gibb. Back in 2002, just after I ceased to be Education | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
Secretary, there was a problem over A-levels and the Conservative | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
Government demanded the head of the then Secretary of State for | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
Education. It was just one mess. This is what, two, three mess, if | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
you count the academies debacle as well, with George Osborne taking | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
charge of education and Nicky Morgan having to back off it. This mirrors | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
what has happened in health. It mirrors of course what happened with | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
wealth fair and Iain Duncan Smith's resignation. We will be coming to | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
him, I gather, shortly. We have problems with the leaks from Panama. | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
We have the tax credit debacle and the Budget. So it is one thing on | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
top of another. Do you have some sympathy with Nicky Morgan and Nick | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
Gibb? I should say we asked to speak to someone from the department, none | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
was available, partly because they are in the House. They are trying to | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
push through reforms. It would be easy to say the buck stops with the | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
Secretary of State or minister and their head should role and all the | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
rest of it. Actually I do have sympathy in the sense of what goes | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
on down the line is in the end your be responsibility but you are not | :08:39. | :08:40. | |
actually truly accountable and responsible for what has gone on but | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
somebody needs to. I would ask what were Ofqual doing? What oversight | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
did they have of the process. They were set up precisely to do that. | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
They are an arm of Government. They pretend they are not, but they are. | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
And very few people know about them, but they are very powerful. What | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
about the testing regime itself, the Government would argue it is pushing | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
through reforms, trying to intloe dues "a more rigorous testing and | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
exam regime" for whatever purpose they see fit but if parents are | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
prepared to actually strike, if you like and take their kids out of | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
school, this is a bigger problem than perhaps just a battle as they | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
would see it with the education establishment. Well, as they found | :09:23. | :09:31. | |
in 1996, I go back a long way, where parents were marching in market | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
towns from Shrewsbury and Truro. You cannot take on parents, teachers and | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
the world all the a once. I'm in favour of the tests. I'm not in | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
favour of the particular nature of the tests. I think Nick Gibb, who is | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
responsible forethis, has carried this too far. It is very much... You | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
mean the grammar test particularly? Well I'm in favour of grammar and of | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
children learning how to write in such a way that they can express | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
themselves clearly and be understood but actually learning some of the | :10:00. | :10:08. | |
terminology, rather than having - where you put the comma, where you | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
use an ex-clamation mark, how you construct a sentence, that's | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
different to some of the things that six and seven-year-olds are having | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
to know about the tech anicalities, which will turn them off. Let's take | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
a fall stop there. Time for the quiz. -- a full stop. | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
At the end of the show, David will give us the correct answer. | :10:35. | :10:43. | |
Today was Iain Duncan Smith's turn to take stroll stage in the EU | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
referendum debate. In a speech this morning, the former Work and | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
Pensions Secretary set out his case for why leaving the EU was in the | :10:54. | :10:55. | |
interests of social justice. Today, Iain Duncan Smith said | :10:56. | :11:09. | |
the package the Prime Minister had negotiated would be very complex | :11:10. | :11:11. | |
to implement, and would have limited | :11:12. | :11:13. | |
impact as most EU In November 2014, David Cameron gave | :11:14. | :11:22. | |
a flagship speech on immigration. According to former Work | :11:23. | :11:24. | |
and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith today, | :11:25. | :11:26. | |
he was planning to include a call of an "emergency break" to cap | :11:27. | :11:28. | |
the number of migrants That, says the former | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
Cabinet minister, was vetoed by the German Chancellor, | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
Angela Merkel, as it went against the principles | :11:35. | :11:36. | |
of freedom of movement. Fast forward to this | :11:37. | :11:38. | |
year when David Cameron announced his deal with the EU, | :11:39. | :11:40. | |
which instead included an emergency break on EU | :11:41. | :11:42. | |
migrant benefits - a measure that would act as a more | :11:43. | :11:44. | |
effective deterrent, according to Downing Street, | :11:45. | :11:46. | |
than a simple cap on numbers. Today, Iain Duncan Smith said | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
the package the Prime Minister had negotiated would be very complex | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
to implement, and would have limited | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
impact as most EU migrants come here to work, | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
not to claim benefits. But Downing Street still | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
insist the strategy ends the something-for-nothing | :12:04. | :12:05. | |
culture of migration. In his speech this morning, Mr Iain | :12:06. | :12:14. | |
Duncan Smith said the level of immigration from the European Union | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
was widening the gap between the haves and have o notes. Here he is | :12:19. | :12:20. | |
speaking earlier. We are at the point | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
in the development of the world economy, where, if we are not | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
careful, we are going to see a huge rise, even an explosion, | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
in the have nots. We are going to see increasing | :12:32. | :12:33. | |
divide between people who have a home of their own | :12:34. | :12:35. | |
and those who, to coin a phrase used rather recently, | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
"Are at the back of the queue." To even get on to the housing | :12:40. | :12:41. | |
ladder, people who have jobs that are threatened by automation | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
and people who live in the shadow of the impact of technological | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
innovation, people who benefit from the immigration of cheap | :12:49. | :12:50. | |
nannies and barristers and labourers and people who can't find work | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
because of uncontrolled immigration. There is a balance here | :12:58. | :12:59. | |
that needs to be reset. And we've been joined | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
by the Justice Minister and Leave I will come to you in a moment. | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
Picking up the thrust of what Iain Duncan Smith was saying, David | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
Blunkett, he talked about the pressures migration has put on | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
housing, on schools, on pay, this widening gap between the have and | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
have notes. Isn't it true that the only way to control migration in any | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
serious form is to leave the EU? No, it isn't but he has got a point. I | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
don't think there is any - if we are going to argue this sensibly, we | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
don't just say yaboo, like Boris Johnson does on every occasion, you | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
are an idiot. He is not an idiot and he has a be point because in | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
particular parts of the country, a at a particular moment in time, the | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
pressures that come as you get large scale inward migration, affect the | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
poor the most. And that is a truth. Therefore, you have to rationally | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
deal with that. You have to resource the community to be able to deal | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
with T you have to have better planning of how you support people | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
through it. -- deal with it. Having said that, I don't believe for a | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
minute brake would work. People come here on holiday from Europe. How | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
would we implement visas people have. How would we follow through on | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
people who came on holiday and stayed and managed to get a job and | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
would have had to have been sent back. It would have been a | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
constitutional and practical nightmare. Let's be real about it, | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
whatever the backward noise and whetherever he did or didn't say it | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
Angela Merkel, it wasn't going to work in the first place. Let's pick | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
up on the fist point because David Blunkett admits there are pressures | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
on low paid and people on lower incomes but there are ways through | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
it and to blame immigration for all the woes of all the country and | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
particularly Iain Duncan Smith who has been part of this Government for | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
six years, and yourself, it sounds like sour grapes. There can be | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
benefits but only if it is controlled. We can't control it from | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
inside the EU. David has talked about this sensibly. We need | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
controls but critically in the debate we need to answer a question | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
because there is pros and cons to staying in the EU and leaving, if we | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
stay in we cannot control immigration from the EU. That brings | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
pressure on housing, schools and the NHS. The question I think Iain has | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
asked today is - who pays the price and how much is the price or is this | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
just something they have to suck up? I think there is every reason to | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
think that these pressures will get worse. Look at the national living | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
wage, something we have introduced at ?7.20 an hour. Did you both | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
support the wage when it first came in? | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
I supported it. Iain Duncan Smith didn't. But it's all sounds very | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
cheery, but he wasn't prepared to support the minimum wage. He has a | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
huge pedigree and talking about social justice, but on the national | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
living wage at ?7 20, we have to be realistic. That is the minimum in | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
this country. If you are coming from Bulgaria or Romania, the average | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
wage is about ?3, so that is its huge pull factor. These pressures | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
will only get stronger. This may not matter if you can afford to have | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
private health insurance or afford to send your kids to private school, | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
but if you can't, it does. What the in campaign have to acknowledge is | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
that price and who pays it. Before they entered, the Eastern European | :16:26. | :16:33. | |
countries, entered the EU in 2004, we presume that they did not come | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
here and they did not work here? Well, they did, because 40% of those | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
who registered to work came out of the undergrowth, legally applied to | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
pay national insurance and tax, and they were already in the country. | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
The idea that you can protect yourself by putting barbed wire and | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
electric fences on British soil, because of the moment we have them | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
on French soil, but we wouldn't have if we came out of the European | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
Union, is a nonsense. There is something short of barbed wire. You | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
yourself said there was no obvious upper limit on immigration, but | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
would you agree that is now a mistake, and if we're going to have | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
a limited has to be done in a sensible way that eases the pressure | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
is on local services and the low paid? I was asked by Jeremy Paxman | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
at the time whether I could do this given that we had a labour market, | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
before the changes in 2004, by the way, whether I could dream up a | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
ceiling where we could send people back when we reached it and I said | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
we couldn't because net migration is about those who leave as well as | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
those who come, which is why the government target, which has fallen | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
by the wayside, was a nonsense to begin with. So what about | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
transitional controls? There were none. Wasn't that the problem? They | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
ran out in 2011 because the maximum was seven years. In retrospect, it | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
might have been more sensible. We did have them on Bulgaria and | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
Romania. Yes, but back came to light on the basis of the numbers of | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
Polish workers. Prior to 2008, the labour market, and Dominik believes | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
in markets, the labour market could take it before 2008 and it actually | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
helped the economy in a way that was beneficial when the collapse came | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
because we have done a lot better, and credit to the government | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
unemployment since 2010, a lot better than many other parts of | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
Europe. David, you are right, and you have to have a level playing | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
field. The point Iain Duncan Smith is pointing out is that it is fine | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
if you're affluent and middle-class and able to withstand the pressures, | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
but it's tough on the low paid and that those who rely on local | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
services. I am conceding that he has a point. But the point is not one | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
about coming out of the European Union, it's about how you deal with | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
those pressures. But if you are conceding that point, and Frank | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
Field, your colleague who is campaigning to come out, is saying | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
that Labour supporting to remain is actually acting against the | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
interests of the communities they purport to serve. I don't believe | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
that for a minute. The government out of luck, and good on them, the | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
habitual residence test that I was involved in strengthening when I was | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
in government. That means that if people come here and they are not | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
working and they pretend that they are not on holiday or visiting | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
family, we have the right to remove them, and what we don't do is do | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
that very well. The less there is, we should get better at it, and how | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
much more difficult if we were actually trying to remove literally | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
hundreds of thousands of people from the country. Let's come back to | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
David Blunkett's point about the net migration target. That was nonsense | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
by the target to introduce a net migration target because it hasn't | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
got anywhere near tens of thousands and we are talking about 330,000 or | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
thereabouts, so it was a nonsense and it still is. It is a good idea | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
but you need to be able to control the real numbers. You can have a | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
points -based system like in Australia. But you can't do that | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
with people coming from one part of the world and not others, so that | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
would be discrimination. What people want to restore confidence in the | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
immigration system is to say that people will only come here if they | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
are self-sufficient, we can have some real control over the overall | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
numbers and that you can remove people who are a security threat and | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
commit crimes. You can do none of those things if you stay in the EU. | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
That's talk about the raw numbers. Be honest, would you radically be | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
able to bring down the numbers of migrants coming to the UK outside of | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
the EU? Would you want to bring it down? Some members of the Leave | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
campaign have not wanted to talk about numbers or said that low | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
numbers of migrants would be desirable. The Conservatives went | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
into the last election pledging to reduce net migration to this country | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
to tens of thousands and you haven't got an ability, a capacity to do | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
that. I'm not talking about the ability, I'm saying is it desirable? | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
What number would you like to see? Tens of thousands is a rather | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
generic number, and I don't think you can decide that abstract way. | :21:14. | :21:22. | |
But you said in 2003 that I should have been able to do that. What I'm | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
saying is that what you want to do is take into account the economic | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
advantages, the gaps in the skills market, but also take into account | :21:32. | :21:33. | |
the pressure on local public services. That is an ongoing, fluid | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
balance that should be made year by year. But of course you can say, | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
with an annual limit, or a target... You would want that? Of course. We | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
need to control the raw numbers or we will never regain public | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
confidence and you can't do it inside the EU. Because you do accept | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
that there will be many people wanting to vote leave who decided to | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
vote leave who will be deeply disappointed if they then discover | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
that what some as of the campaign actually want is a different set of | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
migrants. They want to be able to pick them from different parts of | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
the EU but the numbers won't come down that much. It is for any | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
elected government elected by the people of the country, not faceless | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
bureaucrats, to decide this. But the truth is you have no control over | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
the overall volume unless we're outside of the EU and that is the | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
critical thing that the British public understood about this. David | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
Blunkett, what do you say to Trevor Phillips who was head of the | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
equality commission, who said we are sleepwalking into a catastrophe over | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
the impact of mass migration. Has he got a point? He has, worldwide, and | :22:35. | :22:41. | |
he was talking worldwide, which is why you need the European Union and | :22:42. | :22:43. | |
states across Europe to cooperate together. The idea that you allow | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
Italy and Greece and Spain to actually cope with the influx, and | :22:49. | :22:57. | |
that they won't flow across Europe, and the organised criminals behind | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
the trafficking won't be there if we pull out is a nonsense. We actually | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
do need to cooperate with each other to be able to stop it at source, to | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
be able to deal with the causes, to be able to manage it once it is | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
happening and we can only do that together if we don't have a flow of | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
illegal migrants into this country, as opposed to people earning their | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
living, paying their taxes, paying national insurance. That is the | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
choice. We can have visas, because we would have to have if we had a | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
fair 's system, where you didn't discriminate between Bulgaria and | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
France, you have to have visas. And to have visas would be a disaster. | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
There is a Visa waiver. Wouldn't it be a boundary or a block to business | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
and trade if you had a Visa system? This is silly. In terms of tourism, | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
whether it is short-stay or otherwise, in terms of people coming | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
to business trips there's all sorts of arrangements whether it is | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
automated visas or Visa waiver is, but you have the control, but | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
outside of the EU we would regain control and the British people want | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
to see that. Electronic controls four Mbyte cache and dashboard | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
embarkation, you can do it. How are you going to decide how | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
to vote in the EU referendum? And is it in fact possible | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
to predict how you're going to vote, based | :24:18. | :24:19. | |
on where you live, what you earn, and when you finished | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
your education? Norwich used be the second city | :24:23. | :24:23. | |
of medieval England, its prosperity It may have lost that lofty | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
status today, but with the EU referendum, the question of its | :24:28. | :24:42. | |
relation with the European Union, North and if I just walk a few | :24:43. | :24:44. | |
meters down towards Oak Street, I'm heading towards Norwich | :24:45. | :24:51. | |
South and there is no is just Norwich, but there are | :24:52. | :24:53. | |
constituency boundaries and a body of work has been done | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
that suggests the more of work has been done that suggests | :24:59. | :25:07. | |
the more that I walk this way, Why this might be true | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
is not an exact science, | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
but based on data from around Britain, a group | :25:16. | :25:17. | |
of academics are trying | :25:18. | :25:19. | |
to show who we are - our background and education - | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
is not insignificant in this to leave, more educated people | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
are more likely to want to stay, so if you're looking at some | :25:26. | :25:34. | |
of the constituency profiles | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
you can say yes, this be leaning towards remain | :25:39. | :25:40. | |
or leaning towards leave. That is all we are doing, | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
we are just giving a guide to which seats are more | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
or less Eurosceptic. Norwich North's Conservative MP | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
is for remain, but she is aware that the population of | :25:54. | :25:55. | |
her constituency is such that many Indeed, according to | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
the model, they are far It is a slightly older | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
constituency and that is there It is sad to say that they are | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
earning very slightly However, we have high unemployment | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
rates, so that starts to give picture of Norwich North | :26:15. | :26:22. | |
is compared to Norwich South, if you look at | :26:23. | :26:30. | |
the Later we caught up with two | :26:31. | :26:31. | |
self-employed men buying timber, having driven to a yard | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
on the constituency boundary. I can turn my hand to anything, | :26:36. | :26:37. | |
gardening, For Darren and Adrian, | :26:38. | :26:39. | |
the referendum choice is The EU has done nothing for anybody | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
in this country. I can't say that | :26:44. | :26:52. | |
anybody has benefited We can cross-ventilate, | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
because it will come In Norwich South, the University | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
has an enterprise zone and one business specialising | :27:06. | :27:13. | |
in low-energy house design, the graduate-educated founder wants | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
to remain for what she and long-term goals of EU | :27:20. | :27:21. | |
environmental policy. She accepts the theory, | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
though, that who you are People that have maybe | :27:25. | :27:26. | |
knowledge about something and that is affected, either | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
by in or out of the EU, they are better qualified, | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
or maybe it's easier for them to make a decision, | :27:35. | :27:36. | |
because it is clearer to them, because it is something really big | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
that matters to them that they can | :27:41. | :27:42. | |
base their decision on. Labour's MP in Norwich South is, | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
as the model suggests most of his constituency are, | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
for Remain and he thinks that deprived areas that are for Leave | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
are more antiestablishment than People who feel left behind | :27:58. | :27:59. | |
and that the system have failed them will identify with the arguments | :28:00. | :28:07. | |
coming out of the EU which for them is something that sucks lots | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
of money out of the country, does We can list all that, | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
but it is a visceral feeling. I read papers but I don't honestly | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
know what is going on. That visceral feeling | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
comes across on the shop floor at MillTec, | :28:23. | :28:24. | |
outside Norwich. I want to be British, | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
that is my main incentive to be British, I don't | :28:32. | :28:33. | |
want to be European. But the firm has | :28:34. | :28:35. | |
reasons to remain for what they see as economic reasons, | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
and that might be key. Work is probably the | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
biggest part of my life in terms of where I | :28:42. | :28:43. | |
spend most of my time, so that would probably be | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
the Indeed, whatever the | :28:47. | :28:48. | |
data trends, sometime the what's-best-for-you vote | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
is perhaps the only incentive that David Blunkett and Dominic Raab | :28:55. | :28:56. | |
are still with me, and we're now joined by Bert Bakker, | :28:57. | :29:06. | |
Assistant Professor at the University of Amsterdam, | :29:07. | :29:08. | |
who has been looking at what impact different types of personality have | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
on attitudes towards the EU. What is your research finding? My | :29:13. | :29:24. | |
researches about the question to what extent individual differences | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
in personality traits are associated with your beliefs about politics. | :29:29. | :29:31. | |
Perhaps it's best to briefly say what personality is, because you and | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
your viewers at home will be forming an opinion about me. They might say | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
he is shy or talkative. What we do when we study personality traits is | :29:43. | :29:45. | |
we see to what extent people different -- differ in these | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
descriptions. Some people are more open-minded, they are curious in | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
nature. Others are less open-minded and are more dogmatic and bit less | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
rich of fantasy and these differences are not good or bad, | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
people differ and they shape how you respond to the world and change your | :30:04. | :30:10. | |
behaviour in your work life balance or in your work. It at all show | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
shape sure belief about politics. In that sort of instance what sort of | :30:16. | :30:16. | |
person would vote to leave the EU? In the study we done, published | :30:17. | :30:29. | |
recently, we studied Dutch voters and their attitudes towards | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
different aspects on the EU. It is different from vote bug we see | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
people who are in favour of expanding the EU, by adding more | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
countries, such as ice land Turkey, Montenegro, are more open-minded and | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
curious, they are more agreeable, more trusting, caring, | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
tender-minded. These believes are not per se directly one on one, | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
leading to voting for in the UK case, staying in the EU, but they | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
are associated with it, so we have been looking Atajic tuds -- at | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
attitudes. If you are support expanding the EU if, extrapolating | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
my own research, there is probably a chance that open-minded, curious, | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
full of fancy people, are also a little bit more people to be in | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
favour of remaining in the EU. What about anti-EU sentiment? That's | :31:21. | :31:27. | |
then, the opposite. So, if the other end of the dimension, people who are | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
a bit more - and here not to make a value judgment - so these people are | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
a little bit more close-minded, more rigid, perhaps a little bit less | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
full of fantasy. A bit less likely to trust other people. Again, these | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
are co-racials, so we don't know where the one is causing the other | :31:49. | :31:56. | |
-- correlations. Stay with us. So, the obvious question, are you rigid, | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
less full of fantasy, Dominic Raab, as somebody less staying in the EU? | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
You know how open-minded I am. Which shows you how risky it is to | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
introduce stereotypes. I think particularly in relation to | :32:13. | :32:14. | |
undecided voters there are a mixture of head and heart. I took a | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
rationical, logical vote, I'm in the someone who was always in favour of | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
leaving the EU. It was the emotional heart aspect of t I want us to be in | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
control of our own destiny. In particular t seems to me that those | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
campaigning to leave, have the optimism and ambition, whereas those | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
campaigning to stay in the EU, frankly are engaged in a lot of | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
scaring mongering and doing down Britain. I think on the emotional | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
pull factor, that's quite an important thing we have got on our | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
side. Right, if we look at campaigning tactics, David Blunkett, | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
and if you look at what was said in the film by people there, one of the | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
contribute os said - I want to feel British again, and leaving the EU | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
will satisfy that, the employers of one of the companies there, keener | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
to stay in because of economics. Does this help in terms of targeting | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
areas of the country and grouse of people in terms of how they might | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
vote, because of their age or where they live. -- groups. We certainly | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
know more people are more favourable to staying in, partly because many | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
young people have travelled. Many young people have ambition for their | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
own future and they feel that they are engaged in global activity. | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
Whereas, for older people, whose travel experience may have been | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
less, not wholly but may have been less, where fear of difference, | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
where fear of the unknown, where somebody outside appears to be | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
imposing, it is not so you are prizing there is a greater | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
propensity to vote to come out. So here is the challenge - for the | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
stay-in campaign, of which I'm a part. How do we persuade young | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
people who don't usually vote, to vote and how do we persuade those | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
who do normally vote, older people, to switch their vote? And that's why | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
it is on a knife edge. Because that's the challenge. Well, Bert | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
Baaker do you have any advice for the campaigns. Where should they be | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
targeting the areas where they are not making an impact in terms of age | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
and demography So, this is moving beyond the study we have done and | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
extrapolating the findings a little bit but one could say that | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
politicians perhaps could benefit from speaking what we call the | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
psychological language of their constituency. So they might appeal | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
to certain people by, for instance, if you want to persuade perhaps | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
voters who are a bit more open-minded, curious, full of | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
fantasy, like to experience new things, you might point out that | :34:48. | :34:56. | |
staying within the EU offers them the opportunity to be involved in | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
rich culture life to engage with new cultures. To be a part of that. I | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
have not tested this. I have to be careful here. Thank you for | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
clarifying that, at least. Yes. Listen, thank you very much for | :35:10. | :35:10. | |
that. And do you Dominic. Now, what is the secret behind | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
the success of Donald Trump? How did the businessman and TV | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
personality go from rank outsider to presumptive nominee | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
in the race to become the Republican Party's | :35:21. | :35:22. | |
Presidential candidate? The American journalist | :35:23. | :35:23. | |
John Podhoretz is in London today And as a former speech writer | :35:24. | :35:25. | |
to not one but two former Republican Presidents, | :35:26. | :35:34. | |
Ronald Reagan and George Bush Senior, he should | :35:35. | :35:36. | |
have a better idea than most. We'll talk to John in a moment | :35:37. | :35:38. | |
but first let's remind ourselves what Mr Trump has been saying | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
in the last few months. When Mexico sends its people, | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
they are not sending their best. I said - but I think we should go | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
much, much, much further. I'm going to build a wall and Mexico | :35:51. | :36:05. | |
is going to pay for it, right. He took the 50 terrorists | :36:06. | :36:15. | |
and he took 50 men and he dipped 50 Written by a nice reporter, | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
now the poor guy, you have got to see this guy, | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
"Oh, I don't know what I said, He is a war hero | :36:23. | :36:24. | |
because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured, | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
I hate to tell you. He is walking out, big high | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
fives, smiling, laughing, I would like to punch him | :36:34. | :36:35. | |
in the face, I tell you. Donald J Trump is calling | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
entering the United States, until our country's | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
representatives can figure out They must think we are | :36:48. | :36:48. | |
the dumbest and the weakest Memorable if anything else. And John | :36:49. | :37:14. | |
Podhoretz joins us. Be honest, at the start of the primaries did you | :37:15. | :37:25. | |
think Donald Trump would have a chance in No. When did you change | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
your mine? About October. A while ago. The thing is all the evidence | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
in front of one said he was going to win. He led in the poll. He joined | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
the race in June of 2015 and he led in the polls after two weeks. And | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
generally speaking, that's not a bad way to gauge whether someone is or | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
is not going to end up as the party's nominee but it was so wildly | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
improbably. I mean, I'm trying to think of the proper annalcy for a | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
British audience to who Trump is, who probably played this game a lot. | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
The best analogy I can think of is a kind of combination of the guy who | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
used to host your Big Car show, Top Gear. Jeremy Clarkson. And some rich | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
guy who builds buildings. So the notion that somebody like that, who | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
has dabbled and interfered in politics here and there, would, out | :38:20. | :38:27. | |
of nowhere, seize the major party nomination in a field of | :38:28. | :38:29. | |
extraordinarily impressive candidates, marks a real turningp | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
point for the American political system. What do you think was the | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
one factor behind his success? Well, I think there are two. There are | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
immediate factors and global, long-term civilisation factors. The | :38:44. | :38:51. | |
immediate factor is that no other candidate in the race had anything | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
like Trump's ability to command attention, which is one of the | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
things that we thought most of us political experts thought was going | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
it take him down. That the attention was all mostly negative. That he was | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
saying horrendous things. He was repeatedly lying, that he didn't | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
know anything about policy. But the sheer focus of attention on him, and | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
the fact that it only seemed to help, rather than hurt, that was a | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
big thing. But the global, the long-term thing is the collapse of | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
the trust of the American people in its political and social | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
institutions. Well, America isn't alone in suffering from that | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
problem. And that is true, David Blunkett, you can't write off the | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
support that Donald Trump has managed to gather during this race, | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
by just saying they are a load of crazy, angry people on the fringe. | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
No, you can see a resonance in terms of the crazy idea of building a wall | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
and what we were debating in terms of Britain's place in Europe, the | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
idea that you could cut yourself off. That you can do things that are | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
rationally unthinkable, but in terms of inp stint and emotion -- instinct | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
and emotion, capture people. He clearly has done that. I think the | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
last point made was important. I mean, the breakdown of trust in | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
traditional politics, in the ways of doing things that don't have | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
spectacular outcomes, that don't immediately solve problems | :40:20. | :40:22. | |
overnight, that can't actually wave a magic wand and put things right, | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
people have lost trust in that general, slow, but critical process | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
of democracy and when you have lost that, then you will get a Trump | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
coming forward. You will end up with - well, let's pray to - I will | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
anyway, as a methodist - I will pray that Donald Trump doesn't end up | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
being the President of the United States, with Vladimir Putin as the | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
President of Russia and Britain outside the European Union. Right, | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
well there is an image for you to contemplate. People feel | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
marginalised to such an extent that they are prepared to go out on a | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
limb and vote for somebody like Donald Trump? If it were that people | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
felt marginalised that would not be sufficient to explain the | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
phenomenon. It should also be said by the way, as of this point, that | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
2% of the American public has actually voted for Trump. We are | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
simply assuming that we will get to the point at which, you know, he | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
will gather at least 45% of the American vote. How many do you think | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
he will? Well, I'm not sure. I believe that Hillary Clinton will | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
win the election. I think his negatives, as we call them, are | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
sufficiently high among women, among minorities, that there is no way | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
that will he can cobble together a winning coalition but stranger | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
things have happened, I suppose. Not many in politics. But, the | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
institutional collapse I'm thinking of is the trust, not only in | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
political institutions but in cultural and social institutions | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
that often act adds a mediator between politicians and ordinary | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
people. I'm talking about the Catholic Church in the United States | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
which was a widely important force and a much-divorced guy, who is | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
giving money to proabortion groups, that sort of thing, could never have | :42:11. | :42:18. | |
prevailed in the Republican Party or indeed in American politics, 25 | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
years ago, in part because of the strength of the church which has | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
collapsed. But we have had Bernie Sanders on the loaf, and socialist | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
Americas were gravitate to him -- on the left. And Hillary Clinton, we | :42:31. | :42:44. | |
are seeing it, to a lesser extent. This is the first election that is | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
on the reckoning of the financial meltdown of 2008. That meltdown | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
happened seven weeks before the election of Barack Obama. Then the | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
2012 election was a referendum on Barack Obama's presidency and what | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
we have here is a reckoning for what happened, the decline in home | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
values, you know of 35 to 40%, it has just gotten to par and all of | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
the consequences that fell from the worse recession in 70 years. And | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
here is the think, if you have time - the 2008 meltdown was something | :43:18. | :43:24. | |
that had to be saved by politics, old-fashioned politics, of people | :43:25. | :43:27. | |
joining in, counterweighting what the market had done and yet it is | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
politics and politicians who have got the blame for the aftermath and | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
the austerity and the difficulty that that has caused. Well, let's | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
see what happens over the coming months. Thank you very much for | :43:39. | :43:39. | |
coming in. One of the more remarkable stories | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
to come out of last week's 'Super Thursday' elections | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
was the political comeback The former Conservative MP was one | :43:48. | :43:49. | |
of seven UKIP politicians elected It's the first time UKIP has had any | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
Assembly Members in Wales. This comes 19 years | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
after Mr Hamilton lost his seat in the House of Commons | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
to the so-called "anti-corruption" candidate Martin Bell | :44:00. | :44:01. | |
in the 1997 general election. In that memorable campaign, | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
for the Cheshire seat of Tatton, the tension between the two men came | :44:05. | :44:06. | |
to a head in a confrontation that became known as "The Battle | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
of Knutsford Heath". And Martin Bell arrived without any | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
further prompting. I'd really like to know | :44:14. | :44:22. | |
from you what allegations of corruption you think | :44:23. | :44:28. | |
I'm guilty of? I don't actually intend | :44:29. | :44:30. | |
to talk about you at all. People are going | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
to ask me about you. I want you to run on your record or | :44:37. | :44:38. | |
against your record, whatever it is. Do you accept a man is innocent | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
unless proved guilty? Do you accept my | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
husband is innocent? Neil Hamilton joins us now | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
from the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff. Congratulations. How does it feel to | :44:52. | :45:09. | |
be back in elected office at almost 20 years? It's amazing, isn't it? | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
Especially at my advanced age. There is life after retirement. What are | :45:16. | :45:22. | |
your thoughts for the coming months? Ukip has never been represented in | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
the National Assembly of Wales before and there are seven of us out | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
of 60 members, so we will be a major presence. Labour doesn't have an | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
absolute majority, so we have the balance of power, so all sorts of | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
things could happen. It could happen if there is not an internal battle | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
in Ukip. Is it correct that this afternoon you will launch a | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
leadership challenge on Nathan Gill? Ukip would not be Ukip if there were | :45:48. | :45:54. | |
not internal challenges. It is not a case of mounting a challenge against | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
Nathan Gill. We have not had any assembly members in the past and we | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
have two former group and then elect a leader it. This is from ground | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
zero -- to form a group. But he has been the group leader. It's not a | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
challenge. He was appointed by Nigel Farage as the leader of Ukip in | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
Wales, and whatever decision we take today will not affect that. But are | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
you going to go for the leadership role? I'm going to be a candidate | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
for the leadership, and my colleagues will decide who they | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
want. I don't see this in terms of challenges or votes. I think what we | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
will do is sit around the table together and we will arrive at a | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
consensus view on who is the preferred leader of the group. Do | :46:44. | :46:45. | |
you not think it would be fair and right to allow Nathan Gill, | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
appointed by Nigel Farage, but as a result you have got assembly | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
members, so he should be the leader and stay the leader? Being the | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
leader of a group is a constitutional position in the | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
assembly and we are obliged by the standing orders of the assembly to | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
elect one. The qualities that you need to be successful in | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
Parliamentary debate are very specific. I have had 14 years as a | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
member of Parliament and I have been a government minister and even, | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
bizarrely, been a member of the EU Council of ministers. I have a | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
lifetime of experience in politics at the top end as well, as I'm sure | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
you would agree, a fair amount of media experience. So I think I have | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
a lot to offer and indeed that will be for my colleagues to decide. What | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
is your game plan if you become leader? What will you tackle first | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
of all? Well, we are not in charge of the business that will come | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
before the assembly, so of course, we have to respond to events to an | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
extent. And in the next few weeks, the referendum will be vitally | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
important, outside the assembly as well, but assembly members will pay | :47:57. | :47:59. | |
late -- play a significant role. Now we have this platform as assembly | :48:00. | :48:05. | |
members in Wales will be out on the stump as well as operating inside | :48:06. | :48:07. | |
the building. Nothing much will happen for several weeks anyway. | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
Let's talk about one issue which has been in the headlines, which is Port | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
Talbot and the steel industry. You mention the EU referendum and Ukip | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
says only a British exit could save the plant at Port Talbot. Even if | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
the UK did leave the EU, any impact on the industry would not be felt | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
for years, and Port Talbot is in crisis now. So what would you | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
suggest to help the industry? If we left the EU, we would be full | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
members of the World Trade Organisation in our own right and we | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
could propose our own anti-dumping duties on the low-cost Chinese | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
steel. That would take time. It certainly would, and in the short | :48:50. | :48:58. | |
term there is a problem because Tata wants to sell their assets and there | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
are several bids for them. It is not for politicians to make a choice | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
between the bidders. But certainly the politicians can help the process | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
along so that one bidder is successful and, in the short term, | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
there will be a reprieve, but what matters for the steel industry is | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
whether it is viable in the longer term and that means cutting energy | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
prices, getting rid of these crazy green taxes that make heavy industry | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
viable in the UK and exporting these jobs to the far east and elsewhere. | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
Only having an independent government, at Westminster or in | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
Cardiff, gives us the power to control our energy prices to the | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
extent that we need to take the best advantage of economic conditions in | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
the rest of the world. Neil Hamilton, thank you very much. | :49:46. | :49:47. | |
75 years ago tonight, the German Luftwaffe | :49:48. | :49:49. | |
launched its heaviest air raid on the capital during | :49:50. | :49:51. | |
The attack killed nearly 1,500 people and another | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
casualty of the raid was the Palace of Westminster. | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
The Commons Chamber was completely destroyed as the fire service | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
focussed on saving the 900-year-old Westminster Hall. | :50:03. | :50:12. | |
MPs spent the next nine years meeting in the Lords' Chamber, | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
while their Lordships sat in the Robing Room. | :50:16. | :50:17. | |
The new building was officially opened by King George VI, | :50:18. | :50:19. | |
NEWSREEL: Today the impressive Churchill Door, built | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
of the old Chamber, gives entrance to the new. | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
The House keeps the old intimate atmosphere. | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
For its furnishing, the dominions and colonies send gifts. | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
The Speakers' Chair is from Australia. | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
The galleries will now hold many more and loud speakers make | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
New Zealand gave two despatch boxes and from Jamaica came the bar | :50:43. | :50:49. | |
which is closed when the House is in session. | :50:50. | :50:56. | |
Now to the Great Hall of Westminster. | :50:57. | :50:58. | |
The Speaker of the House of Commons, Colonel Clifton-Brown, | :50:59. | :51:00. | |
enters as the higher court of parliament assembles | :51:01. | :51:02. | |
for the official opening of the new chamber. | :51:03. | :51:04. | |
On the right, facing the thrones, sit the Commons. | :51:05. | :51:06. | |
Behind the Speaker follow bearers of equal office or their deputies | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
In their presence, they pay tribute to the Mother of Parliaments, | :51:13. | :51:20. | |
from which their own government drew inspiration. | :51:21. | :51:31. | |
And we've been joined by the historian and Labour MP | :51:32. | :51:33. | |
Tristram Hunt and the Conservative MP Geoffrey Clifton-Brown. | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
Welcome to both of you. How much of the building was actually destroyed? | :51:40. | :51:46. | |
They had to make this great decision when you had the raid by the | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
Luftwaffe whether to save the great medieval hall or the Victorian | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
chamber. Quite rightly, they chose to save the medieval hall. So the | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
chamber was absolutely smashed. This was a really big hit by the | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
Luftwaffe. When you go into the chamber at the moment you still see | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
the image, not the image, but you still see those elements which | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
remained after the hit. It is almost like a grotto, that old stone as you | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
going. Is that because those were the only bits that were kept that | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
were not completely destroyed? So everything else is new? Churchill | :52:27. | :52:33. | |
wanted a reminder of what had been, after the terrible damage inflicted | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
by the bullets on this Day 75 years ago -- by the Blitz. He insisted | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
that that was kept rather than rebuild. What about the architect | :52:41. | :52:47. | |
engaged in the rebuilding? They chose the wonderful architect, Giles | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
Gilbert Scott, who designed the gorgeous Anglican Cathedral in | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
Liverpool and Battersea Power Station, and most famously of all, | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
the old telephone boxes with that lovely dome. He was the grandson of | :52:59. | :53:06. | |
the man who designed the wonderful hotel at Saint pancreas, the grand | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
Midland Hotel. Which is an amazing building. So he had got this is in | :53:10. | :53:16. | |
the blood, so the spirit of Scott, down to Giles Scott was there. So it | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
was very much a conscious recreation. The continuity? Yes, | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
continuity. We think of the Palace of Westminster as a celebration of | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
democracy, building dedicated to democracy, but when you look at the | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
care in the Palace, by far the greatest attention to detail and | :53:37. | :53:43. | |
wealth is where the Queen enters the other end, and then down to the | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
House of Lords where it is full of wonderful gold, and by the time you | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
get to the Commons it is pretty and minimal, actually. The celebration | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
of democracy, we are left right at the end. We will come to those | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
comments in the end. What about your family connections? My great uncle | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
was elected speaker in 1943 and one of the first things he had to do was | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
preside over setting up a special House of Commons and House of Lords | :54:10. | :54:12. | |
select committee to consider how to rebuild the chamber. Churchill made | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
that great speech on the day saying we had to rebuild it as a symbol of | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
Parliamentary continuity, and he said there must be no awkward gap, | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
no hiatus in Parliamentary life. And it was Julie rebuilt. The committee | :54:26. | :54:34. | |
was set up in 1943 and work started in 1944. By 1948 Churchill and my | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
great-uncle laid the foundation stone. And by the 26th of October | :54:40. | :54:46. | |
1950, they were all taking their seats in the new chamber, so in just | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
nine years they had gone from nothing, and for those were war | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
years, they had gone from a bombed chamber a brand-new chamber. Shows | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
what can be achieved when you had the will. Churchill had to fight | :55:00. | :55:02. | |
this battle because others say they wanted to do it after the war. He | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
said do it now, because as soon as you come after the war there will be | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
incredible demands on resources and there is always a time not to do it. | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
Get on with it now. What about the reconstruction now, David Blunkett? | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
That was then, and it has stood the test of time to a certain degree but | :55:20. | :55:22. | |
all we hear about now is how it is crumbling. Ironically, Tristram was | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
speaking at the University later this week, and the man who heads up | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
the centre is engaged with the Palace of Westminster authority in | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
terms of what comes after the restoration project. How should we | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
shape what goes on inside the new building? It won't be the Luftwaffe | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
at this time, it will be a massive multi-million pound renewal scheme. | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
And the question that wasn't asked in the Second World War needs to be | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
asked now, what sort of democracy and what sort of Parliament and what | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
sort of activity do we want going on in there? How can we reshape, | :55:59. | :56:04. | |
without losing all of the history, and of course the majesty of what | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
goes on? I'm in the glorious bit at the moment. You enjoy it while it | :56:09. | :56:18. | |
lasts. The old bed. -- the old bit. How do you envisage it? The | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
continuity was there in the fabric of the building, but what about | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
inside? We started talking about this in the beginning of the last | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
parliament in 2010 and by my calculations it will not be built | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
until 2028. That is a long, long time, much longer than they were | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
able to do just the Second World War. And the answer to David's | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
question, and he's absolutely right, we talked about the grand project | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
and these billions in costs, but we haven't really concentrated on what | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
we want to see inside. Should it be a modern looking building inside? | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
This was the conversation they had during World War II. Do you then go | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
to your semicircle, horseshoe shaped Parliament, to reshape how we do | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
democracy and again Churchill was absolutely clear. Part of the reason | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
we were at war with a continent was because we were against horseshoe | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
parliaments. He felt that the rigour of the Parliamentary process on the | :57:16. | :57:24. | |
British way was essential to the representative democracy and the | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
freedoms we had, and if we lost that part of the symbols of what we were | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
fighting for would be lost. There was inevitably an argument about | :57:34. | :57:36. | |
where we should put it. There was a strong argument for Potters bar in | :57:37. | :57:44. | |
1944. Two Labour MPs said, critically, there should be no | :57:45. | :57:51. | |
essential decorations of pink. No, we are going to cap it here, because | :57:52. | :57:52. | |
we're doing the answer to the quiz. who did Jeremy Corbyn | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
meet last night? Congratulations to Siddique Khan. | :57:56. | :58:12. | |
What about relationships between Jeremy Corbyn and him? Are they | :58:13. | :58:19. | |
going to improve? From when? From now. He didn't want him anywhere | :58:20. | :58:26. | |
near him during the campaign. Having nominated him, I thought it was | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
quite sensible in Bristol, and I thought the win in Bristol was | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
important, and you have to stop, as we sit it, being London centric all | :58:35. | :58:36. | |
the time. On that basis we won't be. Thanks to David Blunkett | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
and all my guests. The One o'clock News is starting | :58:40. | :58:45. | |
over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11:30am tomorrow | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
with Andrew for live coverage Drinking small amounts of alcohol | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
isn't without risk. Eat more of this, | :58:52. | :59:06. | |
drink more of that - can we really eat and drink | :59:07. | :59:14. | |
our way to better health? Because my mother had dementia, | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
there's always that anxiety - is it genetic? Is it something | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
they've passed on to me? | :59:23. | :59:26. |