10/05/2016 Daily Politics


10/05/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by former Labour cabinet minister David Blunkett. Includes analysis of Iain Duncan Smith's speech on the EU, and an interview with UKIP's Neil Hamilton.


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Iain Duncan Smith turns up the volume in the referendum campaign -

:00:41.:00:42.

laying into the European Union and saying the EU has become

:00:43.:00:46.

After another primary school test is leaked,

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the Department for Education says there's an active campaign

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to undermine the Government's school reforms in England.

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Almost 20 years after the Battle of Knutsford Heath, former

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Conservative MP, Neil Hamilton, returns to elected office

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with a seat in the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff.

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And 75 years ago today, German planes bombed the Houses

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of Parliament, destroying the House of Commons' Chamber,

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in the Luftwaffe's biggest air raid on London during the Blitz.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme today, one of the Labour Party's big

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beasts, David Blunkett, a former Home Secretary,

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Work and Pensions Secretary and Education Secretary.

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We'll look at Iain Duncan Smith's big speech on the EU

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First, though, let's take a look at the problems facing

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Yesterday the Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan, faced questions

:02:02.:02:03.

in the House of Commons over her decision to scrap a plan

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to force all schools in England to become academies.

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And this morning the DfE said there is an "active

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campaign" by people opposed to the Government's schools reforms

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to undermine primary school testing, after another SATs exam

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We'll get the latest on that in a moment.

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First, here's Nick Morgan explaining the u-turn on academies yesterday.

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Academies are the vehicle which allow schools and leaders

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to innovate with the curriculum, have the flexibility to set the pay

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and conditions for their staff and bring about greater

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We still want every school to become an academy by 2022.

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However, we understand the concerns that have been raised about a hard

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deadline and legislating for blanket powers to issue academy orders.

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That is why, Mr Speaker, I announced on Friday,

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that we have decided it is not necessary to take blanket powers

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to convert good schools in strong local authorities to academies

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What she announced on Friday was a significant and

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However she wants to dress it up, dropping her desire to force

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all schools to become academies, by her arbitrary deadline of 2022,

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School leaders should take it as a very clear signal

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that the foot is off their throat and they shouldn't feel they need

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That was the Shadow Education Secretary, Lucy Powell, in the House

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This morning Ms Powell was on the attack again,

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demanding an apology from Nicky Morgan over the latest

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Ellie Price is across this story, and joins me now.

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What has happened exactly? Well this is a spelling, punctuation and

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grammar test aimed at 10 and 11-year-olds. 600,000 of them are

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due to take the test this morning and it was leaked online. If all

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this is sounding rather familiar it is because something similar

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happened about three weeks ago. The Department for Education this

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morning say they are blaming a rogue marker who leaked it online, someone

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who would have had access to the tests for marking purposes. They say

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it shows there is now clear evidence there is an active campaign by those

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people "opposed to our reforms to undermine these tests." There are

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people who are opposed to the tests. A number of teachers, the National

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Union of Teachers, are saying the wrong tests at the wrong time and

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should be scrapped this year. As you mentioned, Labour also suggesting

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these tests are wrong and today's leak was a further body blow to

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parents and teacher confidence in how the primary testing regime is

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working. This morning the Schools Minister, Nick Gibb answered an

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urgent question until the Commons, he insisted the culprit will be

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found and the breach will be investigated but that the Government

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testing regime is sound. Testing is a vatal part of teaching. It is the

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most accurate way, bar none, that a teacher, school or parent, can know

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whether a pupil has or has not understood vital subject content.

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What is more, the process of taking a test actually improves pupil

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knowledge and understanding. Now that was all in Parliament this

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morning but there has been 50,000 parent who signed an online petition

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against these tests. And you may remember, jo, you and I spoke about

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it last week when there were a number of parents who took their

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children out of school in protest against thoot tests all around the

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country. -- against these tests. So unpopular with some parents around

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the country. Now these tests have gone ahead this morning. The

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Government insisting that the integrity of them hasn't been

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breached, that actually only around 90 people would have had access to

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them and that eessentially they wouldn't have been - it wouldn't be

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too easy to cheat these online. As I say, the tests have gone ahead but

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certainly plenty of a row surround everything and one does wonder

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whether the words, debacle or sabotage will be in that test taken

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by 10 and 11-year-olds this morning. Let's get your reaction, David

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Blunkett, do you think it is Saab tong is blaming the educational

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establishment for a rogue marker fair? I think in -- sabotage I think

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in politics we are subject to paranoia and persecution complex. I

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understand given the debacle that this particular regime should feel

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that's the case with them. What has happened is different to last time.

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Last time the actual exam papers had been put out and some of the

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youngster has been able to see it and some of the tables able to teach

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to it. This time, as I understand t we are talking about the marking

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scheme. The marking scheme should have gone out after the exam papers,

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not with the exam papers. Obviously the exam papers have to go out

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before the test is set, but the marking scheme that has gone to the

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markers, many of whom are teachers, who are teaching in the field, they

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have to be, should have gone out afterwards. I don't know what has

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happened with Pearsons or whether Ofqual, the regulator has a grip of

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this or whether the department is going on, all I know it is one thing

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after another after another. But you think it is cock-up rather than

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conspiracy in that sense? I would work on that. I just caution Nicky

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Morgan and Nick Gibb. Back in 2002, just after I ceased to be Education

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Secretary, there was a problem over A-levels and the Conservative

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Government demanded the head of the then Secretary of State for

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Education. It was just one mess. This is what, two, three mess, if

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you count the academies debacle as well, with George Osborne taking

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charge of education and Nicky Morgan having to back off it. This mirrors

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what has happened in health. It mirrors of course what happened with

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wealth fair and Iain Duncan Smith's resignation. We will be coming to

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him, I gather, shortly. We have problems with the leaks from Panama.

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We have the tax credit debacle and the Budget. So it is one thing on

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top of another. Do you have some sympathy with Nicky Morgan and Nick

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Gibb? I should say we asked to speak to someone from the department, none

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was available, partly because they are in the House. They are trying to

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push through reforms. It would be easy to say the buck stops with the

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Secretary of State or minister and their head should role and all the

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rest of it. Actually I do have sympathy in the sense of what goes

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on down the line is in the end your be responsibility but you are not

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actually truly accountable and responsible for what has gone on but

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somebody needs to. I would ask what were Ofqual doing? What oversight

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did they have of the process. They were set up precisely to do that.

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They are an arm of Government. They pretend they are not, but they are.

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And very few people know about them, but they are very powerful. What

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about the testing regime itself, the Government would argue it is pushing

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through reforms, trying to intloe dues "a more rigorous testing and

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exam regime" for whatever purpose they see fit but if parents are

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prepared to actually strike, if you like and take their kids out of

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school, this is a bigger problem than perhaps just a battle as they

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would see it with the education establishment. Well, as they found

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in 1996, I go back a long way, where parents were marching in market

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towns from Shrewsbury and Truro. You cannot take on parents, teachers and

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the world all the a once. I'm in favour of the tests. I'm not in

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favour of the particular nature of the tests. I think Nick Gibb, who is

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responsible forethis, has carried this too far. It is very much... You

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mean the grammar test particularly? Well I'm in favour of grammar and of

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children learning how to write in such a way that they can express

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themselves clearly and be understood but actually learning some of the

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terminology, rather than having - where you put the comma, where you

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use an ex-clamation mark, how you construct a sentence, that's

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different to some of the things that six and seven-year-olds are having

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to know about the tech anicalities, which will turn them off. Let's take

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a fall stop there. Time for the quiz. -- a full stop.

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At the end of the show, David will give us the correct answer.

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Today was Iain Duncan Smith's turn to take stroll stage in the EU

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referendum debate. In a speech this morning, the former Work and

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Pensions Secretary set out his case for why leaving the EU was in the

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interests of social justice. Today, Iain Duncan Smith said

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the package the Prime Minister had negotiated would be very complex

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to implement, and would have limited

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impact as most EU In November 2014, David Cameron gave

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a flagship speech on immigration. According to former Work

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and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith today,

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he was planning to include a call of an "emergency break" to cap

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the number of migrants That, says the former

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Cabinet minister, was vetoed by the German Chancellor,

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Angela Merkel, as it went against the principles

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of freedom of movement. Fast forward to this

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year when David Cameron announced his deal with the EU,

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which instead included an emergency break on EU

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migrant benefits - a measure that would act as a more

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effective deterrent, according to Downing Street,

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than a simple cap on numbers. Today, Iain Duncan Smith said

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the package the Prime Minister had negotiated would be very complex

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to implement, and would have limited

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impact as most EU migrants come here to work,

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not to claim benefits. But Downing Street still

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insist the strategy ends the something-for-nothing

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culture of migration. In his speech this morning, Mr Iain

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Duncan Smith said the level of immigration from the European Union

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was widening the gap between the haves and have o notes. Here he is

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speaking earlier. We are at the point

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in the development of the world economy, where, if we are not

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careful, we are going to see a huge rise, even an explosion,

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in the have nots. We are going to see increasing

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divide between people who have a home of their own

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and those who, to coin a phrase used rather recently,

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"Are at the back of the queue." To even get on to the housing

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ladder, people who have jobs that are threatened by automation

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and people who live in the shadow of the impact of technological

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innovation, people who benefit from the immigration of cheap

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nannies and barristers and labourers and people who can't find work

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because of uncontrolled immigration. There is a balance here

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that needs to be reset. And we've been joined

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by the Justice Minister and Leave I will come to you in a moment.

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Picking up the thrust of what Iain Duncan Smith was saying, David

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Blunkett, he talked about the pressures migration has put on

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housing, on schools, on pay, this widening gap between the have and

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have notes. Isn't it true that the only way to control migration in any

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serious form is to leave the EU? No, it isn't but he has got a point. I

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don't think there is any - if we are going to argue this sensibly, we

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don't just say yaboo, like Boris Johnson does on every occasion, you

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are an idiot. He is not an idiot and he has a be point because in

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particular parts of the country, a at a particular moment in time, the

:13:45.:13:48.

pressures that come as you get large scale inward migration, affect the

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poor the most. And that is a truth. Therefore, you have to rationally

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deal with that. You have to resource the community to be able to deal

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with T you have to have better planning of how you support people

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through it. -- deal with it. Having said that, I don't believe for a

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minute brake would work. People come here on holiday from Europe. How

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would we implement visas people have. How would we follow through on

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people who came on holiday and stayed and managed to get a job and

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would have had to have been sent back. It would have been a

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constitutional and practical nightmare. Let's be real about it,

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whatever the backward noise and whetherever he did or didn't say it

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Angela Merkel, it wasn't going to work in the first place. Let's pick

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up on the fist point because David Blunkett admits there are pressures

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on low paid and people on lower incomes but there are ways through

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it and to blame immigration for all the woes of all the country and

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particularly Iain Duncan Smith who has been part of this Government for

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six years, and yourself, it sounds like sour grapes. There can be

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benefits but only if it is controlled. We can't control it from

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inside the EU. David has talked about this sensibly. We need

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controls but critically in the debate we need to answer a question

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because there is pros and cons to staying in the EU and leaving, if we

:15:15.:15:17.

stay in we cannot control immigration from the EU. That brings

:15:18.:15:20.

pressure on housing, schools and the NHS. The question I think Iain has

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asked today is - who pays the price and how much is the price or is this

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just something they have to suck up? I think there is every reason to

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think that these pressures will get worse. Look at the national living

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wage, something we have introduced at ?7.20 an hour. Did you both

:15:36.:15:38.

support the wage when it first came in?

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I supported it. Iain Duncan Smith didn't. But it's all sounds very

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cheery, but he wasn't prepared to support the minimum wage. He has a

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huge pedigree and talking about social justice, but on the national

:15:57.:16:00.

living wage at ?7 20, we have to be realistic. That is the minimum in

:16:01.:16:05.

this country. If you are coming from Bulgaria or Romania, the average

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wage is about ?3, so that is its huge pull factor. These pressures

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will only get stronger. This may not matter if you can afford to have

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private health insurance or afford to send your kids to private school,

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but if you can't, it does. What the in campaign have to acknowledge is

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that price and who pays it. Before they entered, the Eastern European

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countries, entered the EU in 2004, we presume that they did not come

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here and they did not work here? Well, they did, because 40% of those

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who registered to work came out of the undergrowth, legally applied to

:16:44.:16:50.

pay national insurance and tax, and they were already in the country.

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The idea that you can protect yourself by putting barbed wire and

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electric fences on British soil, because of the moment we have them

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on French soil, but we wouldn't have if we came out of the European

:17:04.:17:07.

Union, is a nonsense. There is something short of barbed wire. You

:17:08.:17:12.

yourself said there was no obvious upper limit on immigration, but

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would you agree that is now a mistake, and if we're going to have

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a limited has to be done in a sensible way that eases the pressure

:17:19.:17:21.

is on local services and the low paid? I was asked by Jeremy Paxman

:17:22.:17:27.

at the time whether I could do this given that we had a labour market,

:17:28.:17:32.

before the changes in 2004, by the way, whether I could dream up a

:17:33.:17:37.

ceiling where we could send people back when we reached it and I said

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we couldn't because net migration is about those who leave as well as

:17:42.:17:44.

those who come, which is why the government target, which has fallen

:17:45.:17:48.

by the wayside, was a nonsense to begin with. So what about

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transitional controls? There were none. Wasn't that the problem? They

:17:53.:17:58.

ran out in 2011 because the maximum was seven years. In retrospect, it

:17:59.:18:02.

might have been more sensible. We did have them on Bulgaria and

:18:03.:18:06.

Romania. Yes, but back came to light on the basis of the numbers of

:18:07.:18:12.

Polish workers. Prior to 2008, the labour market, and Dominik believes

:18:13.:18:16.

in markets, the labour market could take it before 2008 and it actually

:18:17.:18:21.

helped the economy in a way that was beneficial when the collapse came

:18:22.:18:24.

because we have done a lot better, and credit to the government

:18:25.:18:28.

unemployment since 2010, a lot better than many other parts of

:18:29.:18:33.

Europe. David, you are right, and you have to have a level playing

:18:34.:18:36.

field. The point Iain Duncan Smith is pointing out is that it is fine

:18:37.:18:39.

if you're affluent and middle-class and able to withstand the pressures,

:18:40.:18:44.

but it's tough on the low paid and that those who rely on local

:18:45.:18:47.

services. I am conceding that he has a point. But the point is not one

:18:48.:18:54.

about coming out of the European Union, it's about how you deal with

:18:55.:18:58.

those pressures. But if you are conceding that point, and Frank

:18:59.:19:01.

Field, your colleague who is campaigning to come out, is saying

:19:02.:19:06.

that Labour supporting to remain is actually acting against the

:19:07.:19:09.

interests of the communities they purport to serve. I don't believe

:19:10.:19:13.

that for a minute. The government out of luck, and good on them, the

:19:14.:19:16.

habitual residence test that I was involved in strengthening when I was

:19:17.:19:20.

in government. That means that if people come here and they are not

:19:21.:19:26.

working and they pretend that they are not on holiday or visiting

:19:27.:19:30.

family, we have the right to remove them, and what we don't do is do

:19:31.:19:35.

that very well. The less there is, we should get better at it, and how

:19:36.:19:39.

much more difficult if we were actually trying to remove literally

:19:40.:19:43.

hundreds of thousands of people from the country. Let's come back to

:19:44.:19:48.

David Blunkett's point about the net migration target. That was nonsense

:19:49.:19:51.

by the target to introduce a net migration target because it hasn't

:19:52.:19:55.

got anywhere near tens of thousands and we are talking about 330,000 or

:19:56.:20:00.

thereabouts, so it was a nonsense and it still is. It is a good idea

:20:01.:20:05.

but you need to be able to control the real numbers. You can have a

:20:06.:20:08.

points -based system like in Australia. But you can't do that

:20:09.:20:11.

with people coming from one part of the world and not others, so that

:20:12.:20:16.

would be discrimination. What people want to restore confidence in the

:20:17.:20:19.

immigration system is to say that people will only come here if they

:20:20.:20:22.

are self-sufficient, we can have some real control over the overall

:20:23.:20:25.

numbers and that you can remove people who are a security threat and

:20:26.:20:29.

commit crimes. You can do none of those things if you stay in the EU.

:20:30.:20:33.

That's talk about the raw numbers. Be honest, would you radically be

:20:34.:20:37.

able to bring down the numbers of migrants coming to the UK outside of

:20:38.:20:42.

the EU? Would you want to bring it down? Some members of the Leave

:20:43.:20:46.

campaign have not wanted to talk about numbers or said that low

:20:47.:20:49.

numbers of migrants would be desirable. The Conservatives went

:20:50.:20:54.

into the last election pledging to reduce net migration to this country

:20:55.:20:59.

to tens of thousands and you haven't got an ability, a capacity to do

:21:00.:21:03.

that. I'm not talking about the ability, I'm saying is it desirable?

:21:04.:21:09.

What number would you like to see? Tens of thousands is a rather

:21:10.:21:13.

generic number, and I don't think you can decide that abstract way.

:21:14.:21:22.

But you said in 2003 that I should have been able to do that. What I'm

:21:23.:21:27.

saying is that what you want to do is take into account the economic

:21:28.:21:31.

advantages, the gaps in the skills market, but also take into account

:21:32.:21:33.

the pressure on local public services. That is an ongoing, fluid

:21:34.:21:38.

balance that should be made year by year. But of course you can say,

:21:39.:21:42.

with an annual limit, or a target... You would want that? Of course. We

:21:43.:21:48.

need to control the raw numbers or we will never regain public

:21:49.:21:51.

confidence and you can't do it inside the EU. Because you do accept

:21:52.:21:55.

that there will be many people wanting to vote leave who decided to

:21:56.:22:00.

vote leave who will be deeply disappointed if they then discover

:22:01.:22:03.

that what some as of the campaign actually want is a different set of

:22:04.:22:06.

migrants. They want to be able to pick them from different parts of

:22:07.:22:09.

the EU but the numbers won't come down that much. It is for any

:22:10.:22:14.

elected government elected by the people of the country, not faceless

:22:15.:22:18.

bureaucrats, to decide this. But the truth is you have no control over

:22:19.:22:22.

the overall volume unless we're outside of the EU and that is the

:22:23.:22:25.

critical thing that the British public understood about this. David

:22:26.:22:28.

Blunkett, what do you say to Trevor Phillips who was head of the

:22:29.:22:31.

equality commission, who said we are sleepwalking into a catastrophe over

:22:32.:22:34.

the impact of mass migration. Has he got a point? He has, worldwide, and

:22:35.:22:41.

he was talking worldwide, which is why you need the European Union and

:22:42.:22:43.

states across Europe to cooperate together. The idea that you allow

:22:44.:22:48.

Italy and Greece and Spain to actually cope with the influx, and

:22:49.:22:57.

that they won't flow across Europe, and the organised criminals behind

:22:58.:23:00.

the trafficking won't be there if we pull out is a nonsense. We actually

:23:01.:23:05.

do need to cooperate with each other to be able to stop it at source, to

:23:06.:23:10.

be able to deal with the causes, to be able to manage it once it is

:23:11.:23:13.

happening and we can only do that together if we don't have a flow of

:23:14.:23:18.

illegal migrants into this country, as opposed to people earning their

:23:19.:23:21.

living, paying their taxes, paying national insurance. That is the

:23:22.:23:26.

choice. We can have visas, because we would have to have if we had a

:23:27.:23:31.

fair 's system, where you didn't discriminate between Bulgaria and

:23:32.:23:36.

France, you have to have visas. And to have visas would be a disaster.

:23:37.:23:42.

There is a Visa waiver. Wouldn't it be a boundary or a block to business

:23:43.:23:46.

and trade if you had a Visa system? This is silly. In terms of tourism,

:23:47.:23:50.

whether it is short-stay or otherwise, in terms of people coming

:23:51.:23:54.

to business trips there's all sorts of arrangements whether it is

:23:55.:23:58.

automated visas or Visa waiver is, but you have the control, but

:23:59.:24:03.

outside of the EU we would regain control and the British people want

:24:04.:24:07.

to see that. Electronic controls four Mbyte cache and dashboard

:24:08.:24:11.

embarkation, you can do it. How are you going to decide how

:24:12.:24:14.

to vote in the EU referendum? And is it in fact possible

:24:15.:24:17.

to predict how you're going to vote, based

:24:18.:24:19.

on where you live, what you earn, and when you finished

:24:20.:24:22.

your education? Norwich used be the second city

:24:23.:24:23.

of medieval England, its prosperity It may have lost that lofty

:24:24.:24:27.

status today, but with the EU referendum, the question of its

:24:28.:24:42.

relation with the European Union, North and if I just walk a few

:24:43.:24:44.

meters down towards Oak Street, I'm heading towards Norwich

:24:45.:24:51.

South and there is no is just Norwich, but there are

:24:52.:24:53.

constituency boundaries and a body of work has been done

:24:54.:24:58.

that suggests the more of work has been done that suggests

:24:59.:25:07.

the more that I walk this way, Why this might be true

:25:08.:25:11.

is not an exact science,

:25:12.:25:15.

but based on data from around Britain, a group

:25:16.:25:17.

of academics are trying

:25:18.:25:19.

to show who we are - our background and education -

:25:20.:25:22.

is not insignificant in this to leave, more educated people

:25:23.:25:25.

are more likely to want to stay, so if you're looking at some

:25:26.:25:34.

of the constituency profiles

:25:35.:25:38.

you can say yes, this be leaning towards remain

:25:39.:25:40.

or leaning towards leave. That is all we are doing,

:25:41.:25:45.

we are just giving a guide to which seats are more

:25:46.:25:48.

or less Eurosceptic. Norwich North's Conservative MP

:25:49.:25:53.

is for remain, but she is aware that the population of

:25:54.:25:55.

her constituency is such that many Indeed, according to

:25:56.:25:59.

the model, they are far It is a slightly older

:26:00.:26:04.

constituency and that is there It is sad to say that they are

:26:05.:26:10.

earning very slightly However, we have high unemployment

:26:11.:26:14.

rates, so that starts to give picture of Norwich North

:26:15.:26:22.

is compared to Norwich South, if you look at

:26:23.:26:30.

the Later we caught up with two

:26:31.:26:31.

self-employed men buying timber, having driven to a yard

:26:32.:26:35.

on the constituency boundary. I can turn my hand to anything,

:26:36.:26:37.

gardening, For Darren and Adrian,

:26:38.:26:39.

the referendum choice is The EU has done nothing for anybody

:26:40.:26:43.

in this country. I can't say that

:26:44.:26:52.

anybody has benefited We can cross-ventilate,

:26:53.:26:58.

because it will come In Norwich South, the University

:26:59.:27:05.

has an enterprise zone and one business specialising

:27:06.:27:13.

in low-energy house design, the graduate-educated founder wants

:27:14.:27:19.

to remain for what she and long-term goals of EU

:27:20.:27:21.

environmental policy. She accepts the theory,

:27:22.:27:24.

though, that who you are People that have maybe

:27:25.:27:26.

knowledge about something and that is affected, either

:27:27.:27:31.

by in or out of the EU, they are better qualified,

:27:32.:27:34.

or maybe it's easier for them to make a decision,

:27:35.:27:36.

because it is clearer to them, because it is something really big

:27:37.:27:40.

that matters to them that they can

:27:41.:27:42.

base their decision on. Labour's MP in Norwich South is,

:27:43.:27:48.

as the model suggests most of his constituency are,

:27:49.:27:54.

for Remain and he thinks that deprived areas that are for Leave

:27:55.:27:57.

are more antiestablishment than People who feel left behind

:27:58.:27:59.

and that the system have failed them will identify with the arguments

:28:00.:28:07.

coming out of the EU which for them is something that sucks lots

:28:08.:28:10.

of money out of the country, does We can list all that,

:28:11.:28:13.

but it is a visceral feeling. I read papers but I don't honestly

:28:14.:28:19.

know what is going on. That visceral feeling

:28:20.:28:22.

comes across on the shop floor at MillTec,

:28:23.:28:24.

outside Norwich. I want to be British,

:28:25.:28:31.

that is my main incentive to be British, I don't

:28:32.:28:33.

want to be European. But the firm has

:28:34.:28:35.

reasons to remain for what they see as economic reasons,

:28:36.:28:38.

and that might be key. Work is probably the

:28:39.:28:41.

biggest part of my life in terms of where I

:28:42.:28:43.

spend most of my time, so that would probably be

:28:44.:28:46.

the Indeed, whatever the

:28:47.:28:48.

data trends, sometime the what's-best-for-you vote

:28:49.:28:54.

is perhaps the only incentive that David Blunkett and Dominic Raab

:28:55.:28:56.

are still with me, and we're now joined by Bert Bakker,

:28:57.:29:06.

Assistant Professor at the University of Amsterdam,

:29:07.:29:08.

who has been looking at what impact different types of personality have

:29:09.:29:12.

on attitudes towards the EU. What is your research finding? My

:29:13.:29:24.

researches about the question to what extent individual differences

:29:25.:29:28.

in personality traits are associated with your beliefs about politics.

:29:29.:29:31.

Perhaps it's best to briefly say what personality is, because you and

:29:32.:29:37.

your viewers at home will be forming an opinion about me. They might say

:29:38.:29:42.

he is shy or talkative. What we do when we study personality traits is

:29:43.:29:45.

we see to what extent people different -- differ in these

:29:46.:29:51.

descriptions. Some people are more open-minded, they are curious in

:29:52.:29:54.

nature. Others are less open-minded and are more dogmatic and bit less

:29:55.:30:00.

rich of fantasy and these differences are not good or bad,

:30:01.:30:03.

people differ and they shape how you respond to the world and change your

:30:04.:30:10.

behaviour in your work life balance or in your work. It at all show

:30:11.:30:15.

shape sure belief about politics. In that sort of instance what sort of

:30:16.:30:16.

person would vote to leave the EU? In the study we done, published

:30:17.:30:29.

recently, we studied Dutch voters and their attitudes towards

:30:30.:30:32.

different aspects on the EU. It is different from vote bug we see

:30:33.:30:36.

people who are in favour of expanding the EU, by adding more

:30:37.:30:40.

countries, such as ice land Turkey, Montenegro, are more open-minded and

:30:41.:30:46.

curious, they are more agreeable, more trusting, caring,

:30:47.:30:50.

tender-minded. These believes are not per se directly one on one,

:30:51.:30:56.

leading to voting for in the UK case, staying in the EU, but they

:30:57.:31:02.

are associated with it, so we have been looking Atajic tuds -- at

:31:03.:31:08.

attitudes. If you are support expanding the EU if, extrapolating

:31:09.:31:13.

my own research, there is probably a chance that open-minded, curious,

:31:14.:31:16.

full of fancy people, are also a little bit more people to be in

:31:17.:31:20.

favour of remaining in the EU. What about anti-EU sentiment? That's

:31:21.:31:27.

then, the opposite. So, if the other end of the dimension, people who are

:31:28.:31:32.

a bit more - and here not to make a value judgment - so these people are

:31:33.:31:36.

a little bit more close-minded, more rigid, perhaps a little bit less

:31:37.:31:42.

full of fantasy. A bit less likely to trust other people. Again, these

:31:43.:31:48.

are co-racials, so we don't know where the one is causing the other

:31:49.:31:56.

-- correlations. Stay with us. So, the obvious question, are you rigid,

:31:57.:32:02.

less full of fantasy, Dominic Raab, as somebody less staying in the EU?

:32:03.:32:07.

You know how open-minded I am. Which shows you how risky it is to

:32:08.:32:12.

introduce stereotypes. I think particularly in relation to

:32:13.:32:14.

undecided voters there are a mixture of head and heart. I took a

:32:15.:32:20.

rationical, logical vote, I'm in the someone who was always in favour of

:32:21.:32:24.

leaving the EU. It was the emotional heart aspect of t I want us to be in

:32:25.:32:29.

control of our own destiny. In particular t seems to me that those

:32:30.:32:32.

campaigning to leave, have the optimism and ambition, whereas those

:32:33.:32:35.

campaigning to stay in the EU, frankly are engaged in a lot of

:32:36.:32:38.

scaring mongering and doing down Britain. I think on the emotional

:32:39.:32:42.

pull factor, that's quite an important thing we have got on our

:32:43.:32:46.

side. Right, if we look at campaigning tactics, David Blunkett,

:32:47.:32:50.

and if you look at what was said in the film by people there, one of the

:32:51.:32:55.

contribute os said - I want to feel British again, and leaving the EU

:32:56.:32:58.

will satisfy that, the employers of one of the companies there, keener

:32:59.:33:02.

to stay in because of economics. Does this help in terms of targeting

:33:03.:33:06.

areas of the country and grouse of people in terms of how they might

:33:07.:33:10.

vote, because of their age or where they live. -- groups. We certainly

:33:11.:33:15.

know more people are more favourable to staying in, partly because many

:33:16.:33:19.

young people have travelled. Many young people have ambition for their

:33:20.:33:24.

own future and they feel that they are engaged in global activity.

:33:25.:33:30.

Whereas, for older people, whose travel experience may have been

:33:31.:33:35.

less, not wholly but may have been less, where fear of difference,

:33:36.:33:38.

where fear of the unknown, where somebody outside appears to be

:33:39.:33:42.

imposing, it is not so you are prizing there is a greater

:33:43.:33:47.

propensity to vote to come out. So here is the challenge - for the

:33:48.:33:51.

stay-in campaign, of which I'm a part. How do we persuade young

:33:52.:33:55.

people who don't usually vote, to vote and how do we persuade those

:33:56.:33:59.

who do normally vote, older people, to switch their vote? And that's why

:34:00.:34:04.

it is on a knife edge. Because that's the challenge. Well, Bert

:34:05.:34:09.

Baaker do you have any advice for the campaigns. Where should they be

:34:10.:34:13.

targeting the areas where they are not making an impact in terms of age

:34:14.:34:19.

and demography So, this is moving beyond the study we have done and

:34:20.:34:23.

extrapolating the findings a little bit but one could say that

:34:24.:34:28.

politicians perhaps could benefit from speaking what we call the

:34:29.:34:33.

psychological language of their constituency. So they might appeal

:34:34.:34:38.

to certain people by, for instance, if you want to persuade perhaps

:34:39.:34:43.

voters who are a bit more open-minded, curious, full of

:34:44.:34:47.

fantasy, like to experience new things, you might point out that

:34:48.:34:56.

staying within the EU offers them the opportunity to be involved in

:34:57.:35:02.

rich culture life to engage with new cultures. To be a part of that. I

:35:03.:35:06.

have not tested this. I have to be careful here. Thank you for

:35:07.:35:09.

clarifying that, at least. Yes. Listen, thank you very much for

:35:10.:35:10.

that. And do you Dominic. Now, what is the secret behind

:35:11.:35:14.

the success of Donald Trump? How did the businessman and TV

:35:15.:35:17.

personality go from rank outsider to presumptive nominee

:35:18.:35:20.

in the race to become the Republican Party's

:35:21.:35:22.

Presidential candidate? The American journalist

:35:23.:35:23.

John Podhoretz is in London today And as a former speech writer

:35:24.:35:25.

to not one but two former Republican Presidents,

:35:26.:35:34.

Ronald Reagan and George Bush Senior, he should

:35:35.:35:36.

have a better idea than most. We'll talk to John in a moment

:35:37.:35:38.

but first let's remind ourselves what Mr Trump has been saying

:35:39.:35:41.

in the last few months. When Mexico sends its people,

:35:42.:35:45.

they are not sending their best. I said - but I think we should go

:35:46.:35:50.

much, much, much further. I'm going to build a wall and Mexico

:35:51.:36:05.

is going to pay for it, right. He took the 50 terrorists

:36:06.:36:15.

and he took 50 men and he dipped 50 Written by a nice reporter,

:36:16.:36:18.

now the poor guy, you have got to see this guy,

:36:19.:36:22.

"Oh, I don't know what I said, He is a war hero

:36:23.:36:24.

because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured,

:36:25.:36:30.

I hate to tell you. He is walking out, big high

:36:31.:36:33.

fives, smiling, laughing, I would like to punch him

:36:34.:36:35.

in the face, I tell you. Donald J Trump is calling

:36:36.:36:39.

for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims

:36:40.:36:43.

entering the United States, until our country's

:36:44.:36:47.

representatives can figure out They must think we are

:36:48.:36:48.

the dumbest and the weakest Memorable if anything else. And John

:36:49.:37:14.

Podhoretz joins us. Be honest, at the start of the primaries did you

:37:15.:37:25.

think Donald Trump would have a chance in No. When did you change

:37:26.:37:28.

your mine? About October. A while ago. The thing is all the evidence

:37:29.:37:33.

in front of one said he was going to win. He led in the poll. He joined

:37:34.:37:38.

the race in June of 2015 and he led in the polls after two weeks. And

:37:39.:37:42.

generally speaking, that's not a bad way to gauge whether someone is or

:37:43.:37:47.

is not going to end up as the party's nominee but it was so wildly

:37:48.:37:52.

improbably. I mean, I'm trying to think of the proper annalcy for a

:37:53.:37:57.

British audience to who Trump is, who probably played this game a lot.

:37:58.:38:03.

The best analogy I can think of is a kind of combination of the guy who

:38:04.:38:10.

used to host your Big Car show, Top Gear. Jeremy Clarkson. And some rich

:38:11.:38:16.

guy who builds buildings. So the notion that somebody like that, who

:38:17.:38:19.

has dabbled and interfered in politics here and there, would, out

:38:20.:38:27.

of nowhere, seize the major party nomination in a field of

:38:28.:38:29.

extraordinarily impressive candidates, marks a real turningp

:38:30.:38:32.

point for the American political system. What do you think was the

:38:33.:38:38.

one factor behind his success? Well, I think there are two. There are

:38:39.:38:43.

immediate factors and global, long-term civilisation factors. The

:38:44.:38:51.

immediate factor is that no other candidate in the race had anything

:38:52.:38:55.

like Trump's ability to command attention, which is one of the

:38:56.:39:00.

things that we thought most of us political experts thought was going

:39:01.:39:03.

it take him down. That the attention was all mostly negative. That he was

:39:04.:39:08.

saying horrendous things. He was repeatedly lying, that he didn't

:39:09.:39:11.

know anything about policy. But the sheer focus of attention on him, and

:39:12.:39:17.

the fact that it only seemed to help, rather than hurt, that was a

:39:18.:39:22.

big thing. But the global, the long-term thing is the collapse of

:39:23.:39:27.

the trust of the American people in its political and social

:39:28.:39:30.

institutions. Well, America isn't alone in suffering from that

:39:31.:39:34.

problem. And that is true, David Blunkett, you can't write off the

:39:35.:39:39.

support that Donald Trump has managed to gather during this race,

:39:40.:39:43.

by just saying they are a load of crazy, angry people on the fringe.

:39:44.:39:47.

No, you can see a resonance in terms of the crazy idea of building a wall

:39:48.:39:52.

and what we were debating in terms of Britain's place in Europe, the

:39:53.:39:56.

idea that you could cut yourself off. That you can do things that are

:39:57.:40:01.

rationally unthinkable, but in terms of inp stint and emotion -- instinct

:40:02.:40:05.

and emotion, capture people. He clearly has done that. I think the

:40:06.:40:12.

last point made was important. I mean, the breakdown of trust in

:40:13.:40:16.

traditional politics, in the ways of doing things that don't have

:40:17.:40:19.

spectacular outcomes, that don't immediately solve problems

:40:20.:40:22.

overnight, that can't actually wave a magic wand and put things right,

:40:23.:40:26.

people have lost trust in that general, slow, but critical process

:40:27.:40:30.

of democracy and when you have lost that, then you will get a Trump

:40:31.:40:34.

coming forward. You will end up with - well, let's pray to - I will

:40:35.:40:40.

anyway, as a methodist - I will pray that Donald Trump doesn't end up

:40:41.:40:45.

being the President of the United States, with Vladimir Putin as the

:40:46.:40:48.

President of Russia and Britain outside the European Union. Right,

:40:49.:40:53.

well there is an image for you to contemplate. People feel

:40:54.:40:57.

marginalised to such an extent that they are prepared to go out on a

:40:58.:41:02.

limb and vote for somebody like Donald Trump? If it were that people

:41:03.:41:06.

felt marginalised that would not be sufficient to explain the

:41:07.:41:09.

phenomenon. It should also be said by the way, as of this point, that

:41:10.:41:13.

2% of the American public has actually voted for Trump. We are

:41:14.:41:17.

simply assuming that we will get to the point at which, you know, he

:41:18.:41:22.

will gather at least 45% of the American vote. How many do you think

:41:23.:41:29.

he will? Well, I'm not sure. I believe that Hillary Clinton will

:41:30.:41:32.

win the election. I think his negatives, as we call them, are

:41:33.:41:36.

sufficiently high among women, among minorities, that there is no way

:41:37.:41:40.

that will he can cobble together a winning coalition but stranger

:41:41.:41:43.

things have happened, I suppose. Not many in politics. But, the

:41:44.:41:47.

institutional collapse I'm thinking of is the trust, not only in

:41:48.:41:52.

political institutions but in cultural and social institutions

:41:53.:41:56.

that often act adds a mediator between politicians and ordinary

:41:57.:42:02.

people. I'm talking about the Catholic Church in the United States

:42:03.:42:07.

which was a widely important force and a much-divorced guy, who is

:42:08.:42:10.

giving money to proabortion groups, that sort of thing, could never have

:42:11.:42:18.

prevailed in the Republican Party or indeed in American politics, 25

:42:19.:42:21.

years ago, in part because of the strength of the church which has

:42:22.:42:24.

collapsed. But we have had Bernie Sanders on the loaf, and socialist

:42:25.:42:30.

Americas were gravitate to him -- on the left. And Hillary Clinton, we

:42:31.:42:44.

are seeing it, to a lesser extent. This is the first election that is

:42:45.:42:48.

on the reckoning of the financial meltdown of 2008. That meltdown

:42:49.:42:52.

happened seven weeks before the election of Barack Obama. Then the

:42:53.:42:57.

2012 election was a referendum on Barack Obama's presidency and what

:42:58.:43:02.

we have here is a reckoning for what happened, the decline in home

:43:03.:43:06.

values, you know of 35 to 40%, it has just gotten to par and all of

:43:07.:43:11.

the consequences that fell from the worse recession in 70 years. And

:43:12.:43:17.

here is the think, if you have time - the 2008 meltdown was something

:43:18.:43:24.

that had to be saved by politics, old-fashioned politics, of people

:43:25.:43:27.

joining in, counterweighting what the market had done and yet it is

:43:28.:43:30.

politics and politicians who have got the blame for the aftermath and

:43:31.:43:35.

the austerity and the difficulty that that has caused. Well, let's

:43:36.:43:38.

see what happens over the coming months. Thank you very much for

:43:39.:43:39.

coming in. One of the more remarkable stories

:43:40.:43:44.

to come out of last week's 'Super Thursday' elections

:43:45.:43:47.

was the political comeback The former Conservative MP was one

:43:48.:43:49.

of seven UKIP politicians elected It's the first time UKIP has had any

:43:50.:43:52.

Assembly Members in Wales. This comes 19 years

:43:53.:43:56.

after Mr Hamilton lost his seat in the House of Commons

:43:57.:43:59.

to the so-called "anti-corruption" candidate Martin Bell

:44:00.:44:01.

in the 1997 general election. In that memorable campaign,

:44:02.:44:04.

for the Cheshire seat of Tatton, the tension between the two men came

:44:05.:44:06.

to a head in a confrontation that became known as "The Battle

:44:07.:44:10.

of Knutsford Heath". And Martin Bell arrived without any

:44:11.:44:13.

further prompting. I'd really like to know

:44:14.:44:22.

from you what allegations of corruption you think

:44:23.:44:28.

I'm guilty of? I don't actually intend

:44:29.:44:30.

to talk about you at all. People are going

:44:31.:44:36.

to ask me about you. I want you to run on your record or

:44:37.:44:38.

against your record, whatever it is. Do you accept a man is innocent

:44:39.:44:42.

unless proved guilty? Do you accept my

:44:43.:44:45.

husband is innocent? Neil Hamilton joins us now

:44:46.:44:51.

from the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff. Congratulations. How does it feel to

:44:52.:45:09.

be back in elected office at almost 20 years? It's amazing, isn't it?

:45:10.:45:15.

Especially at my advanced age. There is life after retirement. What are

:45:16.:45:22.

your thoughts for the coming months? Ukip has never been represented in

:45:23.:45:25.

the National Assembly of Wales before and there are seven of us out

:45:26.:45:29.

of 60 members, so we will be a major presence. Labour doesn't have an

:45:30.:45:33.

absolute majority, so we have the balance of power, so all sorts of

:45:34.:45:36.

things could happen. It could happen if there is not an internal battle

:45:37.:45:40.

in Ukip. Is it correct that this afternoon you will launch a

:45:41.:45:47.

leadership challenge on Nathan Gill? Ukip would not be Ukip if there were

:45:48.:45:54.

not internal challenges. It is not a case of mounting a challenge against

:45:55.:45:59.

Nathan Gill. We have not had any assembly members in the past and we

:46:00.:46:03.

have two former group and then elect a leader it. This is from ground

:46:04.:46:09.

zero -- to form a group. But he has been the group leader. It's not a

:46:10.:46:15.

challenge. He was appointed by Nigel Farage as the leader of Ukip in

:46:16.:46:18.

Wales, and whatever decision we take today will not affect that. But are

:46:19.:46:22.

you going to go for the leadership role? I'm going to be a candidate

:46:23.:46:28.

for the leadership, and my colleagues will decide who they

:46:29.:46:34.

want. I don't see this in terms of challenges or votes. I think what we

:46:35.:46:38.

will do is sit around the table together and we will arrive at a

:46:39.:46:43.

consensus view on who is the preferred leader of the group. Do

:46:44.:46:45.

you not think it would be fair and right to allow Nathan Gill,

:46:46.:46:49.

appointed by Nigel Farage, but as a result you have got assembly

:46:50.:46:54.

members, so he should be the leader and stay the leader? Being the

:46:55.:47:01.

leader of a group is a constitutional position in the

:47:02.:47:04.

assembly and we are obliged by the standing orders of the assembly to

:47:05.:47:08.

elect one. The qualities that you need to be successful in

:47:09.:47:11.

Parliamentary debate are very specific. I have had 14 years as a

:47:12.:47:16.

member of Parliament and I have been a government minister and even,

:47:17.:47:20.

bizarrely, been a member of the EU Council of ministers. I have a

:47:21.:47:23.

lifetime of experience in politics at the top end as well, as I'm sure

:47:24.:47:29.

you would agree, a fair amount of media experience. So I think I have

:47:30.:47:33.

a lot to offer and indeed that will be for my colleagues to decide. What

:47:34.:47:37.

is your game plan if you become leader? What will you tackle first

:47:38.:47:42.

of all? Well, we are not in charge of the business that will come

:47:43.:47:45.

before the assembly, so of course, we have to respond to events to an

:47:46.:47:51.

extent. And in the next few weeks, the referendum will be vitally

:47:52.:47:56.

important, outside the assembly as well, but assembly members will pay

:47:57.:47:59.

late -- play a significant role. Now we have this platform as assembly

:48:00.:48:05.

members in Wales will be out on the stump as well as operating inside

:48:06.:48:07.

the building. Nothing much will happen for several weeks anyway.

:48:08.:48:12.

Let's talk about one issue which has been in the headlines, which is Port

:48:13.:48:16.

Talbot and the steel industry. You mention the EU referendum and Ukip

:48:17.:48:21.

says only a British exit could save the plant at Port Talbot. Even if

:48:22.:48:25.

the UK did leave the EU, any impact on the industry would not be felt

:48:26.:48:29.

for years, and Port Talbot is in crisis now. So what would you

:48:30.:48:35.

suggest to help the industry? If we left the EU, we would be full

:48:36.:48:41.

members of the World Trade Organisation in our own right and we

:48:42.:48:46.

could propose our own anti-dumping duties on the low-cost Chinese

:48:47.:48:49.

steel. That would take time. It certainly would, and in the short

:48:50.:48:58.

term there is a problem because Tata wants to sell their assets and there

:48:59.:49:02.

are several bids for them. It is not for politicians to make a choice

:49:03.:49:05.

between the bidders. But certainly the politicians can help the process

:49:06.:49:12.

along so that one bidder is successful and, in the short term,

:49:13.:49:16.

there will be a reprieve, but what matters for the steel industry is

:49:17.:49:19.

whether it is viable in the longer term and that means cutting energy

:49:20.:49:23.

prices, getting rid of these crazy green taxes that make heavy industry

:49:24.:49:27.

viable in the UK and exporting these jobs to the far east and elsewhere.

:49:28.:49:34.

Only having an independent government, at Westminster or in

:49:35.:49:38.

Cardiff, gives us the power to control our energy prices to the

:49:39.:49:42.

extent that we need to take the best advantage of economic conditions in

:49:43.:49:45.

the rest of the world. Neil Hamilton, thank you very much.

:49:46.:49:47.

75 years ago tonight, the German Luftwaffe

:49:48.:49:49.

launched its heaviest air raid on the capital during

:49:50.:49:51.

The attack killed nearly 1,500 people and another

:49:52.:49:55.

casualty of the raid was the Palace of Westminster.

:49:56.:49:59.

The Commons Chamber was completely destroyed as the fire service

:50:00.:50:02.

focussed on saving the 900-year-old Westminster Hall.

:50:03.:50:12.

MPs spent the next nine years meeting in the Lords' Chamber,

:50:13.:50:15.

while their Lordships sat in the Robing Room.

:50:16.:50:17.

The new building was officially opened by King George VI,

:50:18.:50:19.

NEWSREEL: Today the impressive Churchill Door, built

:50:20.:50:25.

of the old Chamber, gives entrance to the new.

:50:26.:50:29.

The House keeps the old intimate atmosphere.

:50:30.:50:32.

For its furnishing, the dominions and colonies send gifts.

:50:33.:50:36.

The Speakers' Chair is from Australia.

:50:37.:50:39.

The galleries will now hold many more and loud speakers make

:50:40.:50:42.

New Zealand gave two despatch boxes and from Jamaica came the bar

:50:43.:50:49.

which is closed when the House is in session.

:50:50.:50:56.

Now to the Great Hall of Westminster.

:50:57.:50:58.

The Speaker of the House of Commons, Colonel Clifton-Brown,

:50:59.:51:00.

enters as the higher court of parliament assembles

:51:01.:51:02.

for the official opening of the new chamber.

:51:03.:51:04.

On the right, facing the thrones, sit the Commons.

:51:05.:51:06.

Behind the Speaker follow bearers of equal office or their deputies

:51:07.:51:12.

In their presence, they pay tribute to the Mother of Parliaments,

:51:13.:51:20.

from which their own government drew inspiration.

:51:21.:51:31.

And we've been joined by the historian and Labour MP

:51:32.:51:33.

Tristram Hunt and the Conservative MP Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.

:51:34.:51:39.

Welcome to both of you. How much of the building was actually destroyed?

:51:40.:51:46.

They had to make this great decision when you had the raid by the

:51:47.:51:51.

Luftwaffe whether to save the great medieval hall or the Victorian

:51:52.:51:56.

chamber. Quite rightly, they chose to save the medieval hall. So the

:51:57.:52:02.

chamber was absolutely smashed. This was a really big hit by the

:52:03.:52:06.

Luftwaffe. When you go into the chamber at the moment you still see

:52:07.:52:12.

the image, not the image, but you still see those elements which

:52:13.:52:18.

remained after the hit. It is almost like a grotto, that old stone as you

:52:19.:52:22.

going. Is that because those were the only bits that were kept that

:52:23.:52:26.

were not completely destroyed? So everything else is new? Churchill

:52:27.:52:33.

wanted a reminder of what had been, after the terrible damage inflicted

:52:34.:52:37.

by the bullets on this Day 75 years ago -- by the Blitz. He insisted

:52:38.:52:40.

that that was kept rather than rebuild. What about the architect

:52:41.:52:47.

engaged in the rebuilding? They chose the wonderful architect, Giles

:52:48.:52:50.

Gilbert Scott, who designed the gorgeous Anglican Cathedral in

:52:51.:52:54.

Liverpool and Battersea Power Station, and most famously of all,

:52:55.:52:58.

the old telephone boxes with that lovely dome. He was the grandson of

:52:59.:53:06.

the man who designed the wonderful hotel at Saint pancreas, the grand

:53:07.:53:09.

Midland Hotel. Which is an amazing building. So he had got this is in

:53:10.:53:16.

the blood, so the spirit of Scott, down to Giles Scott was there. So it

:53:17.:53:21.

was very much a conscious recreation. The continuity? Yes,

:53:22.:53:28.

continuity. We think of the Palace of Westminster as a celebration of

:53:29.:53:32.

democracy, building dedicated to democracy, but when you look at the

:53:33.:53:36.

care in the Palace, by far the greatest attention to detail and

:53:37.:53:43.

wealth is where the Queen enters the other end, and then down to the

:53:44.:53:46.

House of Lords where it is full of wonderful gold, and by the time you

:53:47.:53:51.

get to the Commons it is pretty and minimal, actually. The celebration

:53:52.:53:55.

of democracy, we are left right at the end. We will come to those

:53:56.:53:59.

comments in the end. What about your family connections? My great uncle

:54:00.:54:04.

was elected speaker in 1943 and one of the first things he had to do was

:54:05.:54:09.

preside over setting up a special House of Commons and House of Lords

:54:10.:54:12.

select committee to consider how to rebuild the chamber. Churchill made

:54:13.:54:16.

that great speech on the day saying we had to rebuild it as a symbol of

:54:17.:54:20.

Parliamentary continuity, and he said there must be no awkward gap,

:54:21.:54:25.

no hiatus in Parliamentary life. And it was Julie rebuilt. The committee

:54:26.:54:34.

was set up in 1943 and work started in 1944. By 1948 Churchill and my

:54:35.:54:39.

great-uncle laid the foundation stone. And by the 26th of October

:54:40.:54:46.

1950, they were all taking their seats in the new chamber, so in just

:54:47.:54:50.

nine years they had gone from nothing, and for those were war

:54:51.:54:54.

years, they had gone from a bombed chamber a brand-new chamber. Shows

:54:55.:54:59.

what can be achieved when you had the will. Churchill had to fight

:55:00.:55:02.

this battle because others say they wanted to do it after the war. He

:55:03.:55:07.

said do it now, because as soon as you come after the war there will be

:55:08.:55:10.

incredible demands on resources and there is always a time not to do it.

:55:11.:55:14.

Get on with it now. What about the reconstruction now, David Blunkett?

:55:15.:55:19.

That was then, and it has stood the test of time to a certain degree but

:55:20.:55:22.

all we hear about now is how it is crumbling. Ironically, Tristram was

:55:23.:55:28.

speaking at the University later this week, and the man who heads up

:55:29.:55:32.

the centre is engaged with the Palace of Westminster authority in

:55:33.:55:37.

terms of what comes after the restoration project. How should we

:55:38.:55:40.

shape what goes on inside the new building? It won't be the Luftwaffe

:55:41.:55:45.

at this time, it will be a massive multi-million pound renewal scheme.

:55:46.:55:50.

And the question that wasn't asked in the Second World War needs to be

:55:51.:55:54.

asked now, what sort of democracy and what sort of Parliament and what

:55:55.:55:58.

sort of activity do we want going on in there? How can we reshape,

:55:59.:56:04.

without losing all of the history, and of course the majesty of what

:56:05.:56:08.

goes on? I'm in the glorious bit at the moment. You enjoy it while it

:56:09.:56:18.

lasts. The old bed. -- the old bit. How do you envisage it? The

:56:19.:56:21.

continuity was there in the fabric of the building, but what about

:56:22.:56:24.

inside? We started talking about this in the beginning of the last

:56:25.:56:28.

parliament in 2010 and by my calculations it will not be built

:56:29.:56:34.

until 2028. That is a long, long time, much longer than they were

:56:35.:56:37.

able to do just the Second World War. And the answer to David's

:56:38.:56:42.

question, and he's absolutely right, we talked about the grand project

:56:43.:56:47.

and these billions in costs, but we haven't really concentrated on what

:56:48.:56:52.

we want to see inside. Should it be a modern looking building inside?

:56:53.:56:56.

This was the conversation they had during World War II. Do you then go

:56:57.:57:02.

to your semicircle, horseshoe shaped Parliament, to reshape how we do

:57:03.:57:06.

democracy and again Churchill was absolutely clear. Part of the reason

:57:07.:57:12.

we were at war with a continent was because we were against horseshoe

:57:13.:57:15.

parliaments. He felt that the rigour of the Parliamentary process on the

:57:16.:57:24.

British way was essential to the representative democracy and the

:57:25.:57:28.

freedoms we had, and if we lost that part of the symbols of what we were

:57:29.:57:33.

fighting for would be lost. There was inevitably an argument about

:57:34.:57:36.

where we should put it. There was a strong argument for Potters bar in

:57:37.:57:44.

1944. Two Labour MPs said, critically, there should be no

:57:45.:57:51.

essential decorations of pink. No, we are going to cap it here, because

:57:52.:57:52.

we're doing the answer to the quiz. who did Jeremy Corbyn

:57:53.:57:55.

meet last night? Congratulations to Siddique Khan.

:57:56.:58:12.

What about relationships between Jeremy Corbyn and him? Are they

:58:13.:58:19.

going to improve? From when? From now. He didn't want him anywhere

:58:20.:58:26.

near him during the campaign. Having nominated him, I thought it was

:58:27.:58:30.

quite sensible in Bristol, and I thought the win in Bristol was

:58:31.:58:34.

important, and you have to stop, as we sit it, being London centric all

:58:35.:58:36.

the time. On that basis we won't be. Thanks to David Blunkett

:58:37.:58:39.

and all my guests. The One o'clock News is starting

:58:40.:58:45.

over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11:30am tomorrow

:58:46.:58:48.

with Andrew for live coverage Drinking small amounts of alcohol

:58:49.:58:51.

isn't without risk. Eat more of this,

:58:52.:59:06.

drink more of that - can we really eat and drink

:59:07.:59:14.

our way to better health? Because my mother had dementia,

:59:15.:59:18.

there's always that anxiety - is it genetic? Is it something

:59:19.:59:22.

they've passed on to me?

:59:23.:59:26.

Jo Coburn is joined by former Labour cabinet minister David Blunkett for the latest news, interviews and debate from Westminster. Includes analysis of Iain Duncan Smith's speech on the EU referendum and an interview with UKIP's Neil Hamilton following his election to the Welsh Assembly.


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