10/05/2016 Daily Politics


10/05/2016

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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

Iain Duncan Smith turns up the volume in the referendum campaign -

:00:41.:00:42.

laying into the European Union and saying the EU has become

:00:43.:00:46.

After another primary school test is leaked,

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the Department for Education says there's an active campaign

:00:55.:00:56.

to undermine the Government's school reforms in England.

:00:57.:01:00.

Almost 20 years after the Battle of Knutsford Heath, former

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Conservative MP, Neil Hamilton, returns to elected office

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with a seat in the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff.

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And 75 years ago today, German planes bombed the Houses

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of Parliament, destroying the House of Commons' Chamber,

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in the Luftwaffe's biggest air raid on London during the Blitz.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme today, one of the Labour Party's big

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beasts, David Blunkett, a former Home Secretary,

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Work and Pensions Secretary and Education Secretary.

:01:41.:01:43.

We'll look at Iain Duncan Smith's big speech on the EU

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First, though, let's take a look at the problems facing

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Yesterday the Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan, faced questions

:02:02.:02:03.

in the House of Commons over her decision to scrap a plan

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to force all schools in England to become academies.

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And this morning the DfE said there is an "active

:02:10.:02:11.

campaign" by people opposed to the Government's schools reforms

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to undermine primary school testing, after another SATs exam

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We'll get the latest on that in a moment.

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First, here's Nick Morgan explaining the u-turn on academies yesterday.

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Academies are the vehicle which allow schools and leaders

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to innovate with the curriculum, have the flexibility to set the pay

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and conditions for their staff and bring about greater

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We still want every school to become an academy by 2022.

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However, we understand the concerns that have been raised about a hard

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deadline and legislating for blanket powers to issue academy orders.

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That is why, Mr Speaker, I announced on Friday,

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that we have decided it is not necessary to take blanket powers

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to convert good schools in strong local authorities to academies

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What she announced on Friday was a significant and

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However she wants to dress it up, dropping her desire to force

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all schools to become academies, by her arbitrary deadline of 2022,

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School leaders should take it as a very clear signal

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that the foot is off their throat and they shouldn't feel they need

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That was the Shadow Education Secretary, Lucy Powell, in the House

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This morning Ms Powell was on the attack again,

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demanding an apology from Nicky Morgan over the latest

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Ellie Price is across this story, and joins me now.

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What has happened exactly? Well this is a spelling, punctuation and

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grammar test aimed at 10 and 11-year-olds. 600,000 of them are

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due to take the test this morning and it was leaked online. If all

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this is sounding rather familiar it is because something similar

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happened about three weeks ago. The Department for Education this

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morning say they are blaming a rogue marker who leaked it online, someone

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who would have had access to the tests for marking purposes. They say

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it shows there is now clear evidence there is an active campaign by those

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people "opposed to our reforms to undermine these tests." There are

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people who are opposed to the tests. A number of teachers, the National

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Union of Teachers, are saying the wrong tests at the wrong time and

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should be scrapped this year. As you mentioned, Labour also suggesting

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these tests are wrong and today's leak was a further body blow to

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parents and teacher confidence in how the primary testing regime is

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working. This morning the Schools Minister, Nick Gibb answered an

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urgent question until the Commons, he insisted the culprit will be

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found and the breach will be investigated but that the Government

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testing regime is sound. Testing is a vatal part of teaching. It is the

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most accurate way, bar none, that a teacher, school or parent, can know

:04:58.:05:02.

whether a pupil has or has not understood vital subject content.

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What is more, the process of taking a test actually improves pupil

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knowledge and understanding. Now that was all in Parliament this

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morning but there has been 50,000 parent who signed an online petition

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against these tests. And you may remember, jo, you and I spoke about

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it last week when there were a number of parents who took their

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children out of school in protest against thoot tests all around the

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country. -- against these tests. So unpopular with some parents around

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the country. Now these tests have gone ahead this morning. The

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Government insisting that the integrity of them hasn't been

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breached, that actually only around 90 people would have had access to

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them and that eessentially they wouldn't have been - it wouldn't be

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too easy to cheat these online. As I say, the tests have gone ahead but

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certainly plenty of a row surround everything and one does wonder

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whether the words, debacle or sabotage will be in that test taken

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by 10 and 11-year-olds this morning. Let's get your reaction, David

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Blunkett, do you think it is Saab tong is blaming the educational

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establishment for a rogue marker fair? I think in -- sabotage I think

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in politics we are subject to paranoia and persecution complex. I

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understand given the debacle that this particular regime should feel

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that's the case with them. What has happened is different to last time.

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Last time the actual exam papers had been put out and some of the

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youngster has been able to see it and some of the tables able to teach

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to it. This time, as I understand t we are talking about the marking

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scheme. The marking scheme should have gone out after the exam papers,

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not with the exam papers. Obviously the exam papers have to go out

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before the test is set, but the marking scheme that has gone to the

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markers, many of whom are teachers, who are teaching in the field, they

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have to be, should have gone out afterwards. I don't know what has

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happened with Pearsons or whether Ofqual, the regulator has a grip of

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this or whether the department is going on, all I know it is one thing

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after another after another. But you think it is cock-up rather than

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conspiracy in that sense? I would work on that. I just caution Nicky

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Morgan and Nick Gibb. Back in 2002, just after I ceased to be Education

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Secretary, there was a problem over A-levels and the Conservative

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Government demanded the head of the then Secretary of State for

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Education. It was just one mess. This is what, two, three mess, if

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you count the academies debacle as well, with George Osborne taking

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charge of education and Nicky Morgan having to back off it. This mirrors

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what has happened in health. It mirrors of course what happened with

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wealth fair and Iain Duncan Smith's resignation. We will be coming to

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him, I gather, shortly. We have problems with the leaks from Panama.

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We have the tax credit debacle and the Budget. So it is one thing on

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top of another. Do you have some sympathy with Nicky Morgan and Nick

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Gibb? I should say we asked to speak to someone from the department, none

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was available, partly because they are in the House. They are trying to

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push through reforms. It would be easy to say the buck stops with the

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Secretary of State or minister and their head should role and all the

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rest of it. Actually I do have sympathy in the sense of what goes

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on down the line is in the end your be responsibility but you are not

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actually truly accountable and responsible for what has gone on but

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somebody needs to. I would ask what were Ofqual doing? What oversight

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did they have of the process. They were set up precisely to do that.

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They are an arm of Government. They pretend they are not, but they are.

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And very few people know about them, but they are very powerful. What

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about the testing regime itself, the Government would argue it is pushing

:09:04.:09:08.

through reforms, trying to intloe dues "a more rigorous testing and

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exam regime" for whatever purpose they see fit but if parents are

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prepared to actually strike, if you like and take their kids out of

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school, this is a bigger problem than perhaps just a battle as they

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would see it with the education establishment. Well, as they found

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in 1996, I go back a long way, where parents were marching in market

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towns from Shrewsbury and Truro. You cannot take on parents, teachers and

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the world all the a once. I'm in favour of the tests. I'm not in

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favour of the particular nature of the tests. I think Nick Gibb, who is

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responsible forethis, has carried this too far. It is very much... You

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mean the grammar test particularly? Well I'm in favour of grammar and of

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children learning how to write in such a way that they can express

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themselves clearly and be understood but actually learning some of the

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terminology, rather than having - where you put the comma, where you

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use an ex-clamation mark, how you construct a sentence, that's

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different to some of the things that six and seven-year-olds are having

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to know about the tech anicalities, which will turn them off. Let's take

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a fall stop there. Time for the quiz. -- a full stop.

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At the end of the show, David will give us the correct answer.

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Today was Iain Duncan Smith's turn to take stroll stage in the EU

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referendum debate. In a speech this morning, the former Work and

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Pensions Secretary set out his case for why leaving the EU was in the

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interests of social justice. Today, Iain Duncan Smith said

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the package the Prime Minister had negotiated would be very complex

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to implement, and would have limited

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impact as most EU In November 2014, David Cameron gave

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a flagship speech on immigration. According to former Work

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and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith today,

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he was planning to include a call of an "emergency break" to cap

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the number of migrants That, says the former

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Cabinet minister, was vetoed by the German Chancellor,

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Angela Merkel, as it went against the principles

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of freedom of movement. Fast forward to this

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year when David Cameron announced his deal with the EU,

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which instead included an emergency break on EU

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migrant benefits - a measure that would act as a more

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effective deterrent, according to Downing Street,

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than a simple cap on numbers. Today, Iain Duncan Smith said

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the package the Prime Minister had negotiated would be very complex

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to implement, and would have limited

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impact as most EU migrants come here to work,

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not to claim benefits. But Downing Street still

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insist the strategy ends the something-for-nothing

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culture of migration. In his speech this morning, Mr Iain

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Duncan Smith said the level of immigration from the European Union

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was widening the gap between the haves and have o notes. Here he is

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speaking earlier. We are at the point

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in the development of the world economy, where, if we are not

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careful, we are going to see a huge rise, even an explosion,

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in the have nots. We are going to see increasing

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divide between people who have a home of their own

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and those who, to coin a phrase used rather recently,

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"Are at the back of the queue." To even get on to the housing

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ladder, people who have jobs that are threatened by automation

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and people who live in the shadow of the impact of technological

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innovation, people who benefit from the immigration of cheap

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nannies and barristers and labourers and people who can't find work

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because of uncontrolled immigration. There is a balance here

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that needs to be reset. And we've been joined

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by the Justice Minister and Leave I will come to you in a moment.

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Picking up the thrust of what Iain Duncan Smith was saying, David

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Blunkett, he talked about the pressures migration has put on

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housing, on schools, on pay, this widening gap between the have and

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have notes. Isn't it true that the only way to control migration in any

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serious form is to leave the EU? No, it isn't but he has got a point. I

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don't think there is any - if we are going to argue this sensibly, we

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don't just say yaboo, like Boris Johnson does on every occasion, you

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are an idiot. He is not an idiot and he has a be point because in

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particular parts of the country, a at a particular moment in time, the

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pressures that come as you get large scale inward migration, affect the

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poor the most. And that is a truth. Therefore, you have to rationally

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deal with that. You have to resource the community to be able to deal

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with T you have to have better planning of how you support people

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through it. -- deal with it. Having said that, I don't believe for a

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minute brake would work. People come here on holiday from Europe. How

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would we implement visas people have. How would we follow through on

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people who came on holiday and stayed and managed to get a job and

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would have had to have been sent back. It would have been a

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constitutional and practical nightmare. Let's be real about it,

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whatever the backward noise and whetherever he did or didn't say it

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Angela Merkel, it wasn't going to work in the first place. Let's pick

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up on the fist point because David Blunkett admits there are pressures

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on low paid and people on lower incomes but there are ways through

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it and to blame immigration for all the woes of all the country and

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particularly Iain Duncan Smith who has been part of this Government for

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six years, and yourself, it sounds like sour grapes. There can be

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benefits but only if it is controlled. We can't control it from

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inside the EU. David has talked about this sensibly. We need

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controls but critically in the debate we need to answer a question

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because there is pros and cons to staying in the EU and leaving, if we

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stay in we cannot control immigration from the EU. That brings

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pressure on housing, schools and the NHS. The question I think Iain has

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asked today is - who pays the price and how much is the price or is this

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just something they have to suck up? I think there is every reason to

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think that these pressures will get worse. Look at the national living

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wage, something we have introduced at ?7.20 an hour. Did you both

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support the wage when it first came in?

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I supported it. Iain Duncan Smith didn't. But it's all sounds very

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cheery, but he wasn't prepared to support the minimum wage. He has a

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huge pedigree and talking about social justice, but on the national

:15:57.:16:00.

living wage at ?7 20, we have to be realistic. That is the minimum in

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this country. If you are coming from Bulgaria or Romania, the average

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wage is about ?3, so that is its huge pull factor. These pressures

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will only get stronger. This may not matter if you can afford to have

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private health insurance or afford to send your kids to private school,

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but if you can't, it does. What the in campaign have to acknowledge is

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that price and who pays it. Before they entered, the Eastern European

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countries, entered the EU in 2004, we presume that they did not come

:16:34.:16:37.

here and they did not work here? Well, they did, because 40% of those

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who registered to work came out of the undergrowth, legally applied to

:16:44.:16:50.

pay national insurance and tax, and they were already in the country.

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The idea that you can protect yourself by putting barbed wire and

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electric fences on British soil, because of the moment we have them

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on French soil, but we wouldn't have if we came out of the European

:17:04.:17:07.

Union, is a nonsense. There is something short of barbed wire. You

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yourself said there was no obvious upper limit on immigration, but

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would you agree that is now a mistake, and if we're going to have

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a limited has to be done in a sensible way that eases the pressure

:17:19.:17:21.

is on local services and the low paid? I was asked by Jeremy Paxman

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at the time whether I could do this given that we had a labour market,

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before the changes in 2004, by the way, whether I could dream up a

:17:33.:17:37.

ceiling where we could send people back when we reached it and I said

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we couldn't because net migration is about those who leave as well as

:17:42.:17:44.

those who come, which is why the government target, which has fallen

:17:45.:17:48.

by the wayside, was a nonsense to begin with. So what about

:17:49.:17:52.

transitional controls? There were none. Wasn't that the problem? They

:17:53.:17:58.

ran out in 2011 because the maximum was seven years. In retrospect, it

:17:59.:18:02.

might have been more sensible. We did have them on Bulgaria and

:18:03.:18:06.

Romania. Yes, but back came to light on the basis of the numbers of

:18:07.:18:12.

Polish workers. Prior to 2008, the labour market, and Dominik believes

:18:13.:18:16.

in markets, the labour market could take it before 2008 and it actually

:18:17.:18:21.

helped the economy in a way that was beneficial when the collapse came

:18:22.:18:24.

because we have done a lot better, and credit to the government

:18:25.:18:28.

unemployment since 2010, a lot better than many other parts of

:18:29.:18:33.

Europe. David, you are right, and you have to have a level playing

:18:34.:18:36.

field. The point Iain Duncan Smith is pointing out is that it is fine

:18:37.:18:39.

if you're affluent and middle-class and able to withstand the pressures,

:18:40.:18:44.

but it's tough on the low paid and that those who rely on local

:18:45.:18:47.

services. I am conceding that he has a point. But the point is not one

:18:48.:18:54.

about coming out of the European Union, it's about how you deal with

:18:55.:18:58.

those pressures. But if you are conceding that point, and Frank

:18:59.:19:01.

Field, your colleague who is campaigning to come out, is saying

:19:02.:19:06.

that Labour supporting to remain is actually acting against the

:19:07.:19:09.

interests of the communities they purport to serve. I don't believe

:19:10.:19:13.

that for a minute. The government out of luck, and good on them, the

:19:14.:19:16.

habitual residence test that I was involved in strengthening when I was

:19:17.:19:20.

in government. That means that if people come here and they are not

:19:21.:19:26.

working and they pretend that they are not on holiday or visiting

:19:27.:19:30.

family, we have the right to remove them, and what we don't do is do

:19:31.:19:35.

that very well. The less there is, we should get better at it, and how

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much more difficult if we were actually trying to remove literally

:19:40.:19:43.

hundreds of thousands of people from the country. Let's come back to

:19:44.:19:48.

David Blunkett's point about the net migration target. That was nonsense

:19:49.:19:51.

by the target to introduce a net migration target because it hasn't

:19:52.:19:55.

got anywhere near tens of thousands and we are talking about 330,000 or

:19:56.:20:00.

thereabouts, so it was a nonsense and it still is. It is a good idea

:20:01.:20:05.

but you need to be able to control the real numbers. You can have a

:20:06.:20:08.

points -based system like in Australia. But you can't do that

:20:09.:20:11.

with people coming from one part of the world and not others, so that

:20:12.:20:16.

would be discrimination. What people want to restore confidence in the

:20:17.:20:19.

immigration system is to say that people will only come here if they

:20:20.:20:22.

are self-sufficient, we can have some real control over the overall

:20:23.:20:25.

numbers and that you can remove people who are a security threat and

:20:26.:20:29.

commit crimes. You can do none of those things if you stay in the EU.

:20:30.:20:33.

That's talk about the raw numbers. Be honest, would you radically be

:20:34.:20:37.

able to bring down the numbers of migrants coming to the UK outside of

:20:38.:20:42.

the EU? Would you want to bring it down? Some members of the Leave

:20:43.:20:46.

campaign have not wanted to talk about numbers or said that low

:20:47.:20:49.

numbers of migrants would be desirable. The Conservatives went

:20:50.:20:54.

into the last election pledging to reduce net migration to this country

:20:55.:20:59.

to tens of thousands and you haven't got an ability, a capacity to do

:21:00.:21:03.

that. I'm not talking about the ability, I'm saying is it desirable?

:21:04.:21:09.

What number would you like to see? Tens of thousands is a rather

:21:10.:21:13.

generic number, and I don't think you can decide that abstract way.

:21:14.:21:22.

But you said in 2003 that I should have been able to do that. What I'm

:21:23.:21:27.

saying is that what you want to do is take into account the economic

:21:28.:21:31.

advantages, the gaps in the skills market, but also take into account

:21:32.:21:33.

the pressure on local public services. That is an ongoing, fluid

:21:34.:21:38.

balance that should be made year by year. But of course you can say,

:21:39.:21:42.

with an annual limit, or a target... You would want that? Of course. We

:21:43.:21:48.

need to control the raw numbers or we will never regain public

:21:49.:21:51.

confidence and you can't do it inside the EU. Because you do accept

:21:52.:21:55.

that there will be many people wanting to vote leave who decided to

:21:56.:22:00.

vote leave who will be deeply disappointed if they then discover

:22:01.:22:03.

that what some as of the campaign actually want is a different set of

:22:04.:22:06.

migrants. They want to be able to pick them from different parts of

:22:07.:22:09.

the EU but the numbers won't come down that much. It is for any

:22:10.:22:14.

elected government elected by the people of the country, not faceless

:22:15.:22:18.

bureaucrats, to decide this. But the truth is you have no control over

:22:19.:22:22.

the overall volume unless we're outside of the EU and that is the

:22:23.:22:25.

critical thing that the British public understood about this. David

:22:26.:22:28.

Blunkett, what do you say to Trevor Phillips who was head of the

:22:29.:22:31.

equality commission, who said we are sleepwalking into a catastrophe over

:22:32.:22:34.

the impact of mass migration. Has he got a point? He has, worldwide, and

:22:35.:22:41.

he was talking worldwide, which is why you need the European Union and

:22:42.:22:43.

states across Europe to cooperate together. The idea that you allow

:22:44.:22:48.

Italy and Greece and Spain to actually cope with the influx, and

:22:49.:22:57.

that they won't flow across Europe, and the organised criminals behind

:22:58.:23:00.

the trafficking won't be there if we pull out is a nonsense. We actually

:23:01.:23:05.

do need to cooperate with each other to be able to stop it at source, to

:23:06.:23:10.

be able to deal with the causes, to be able to manage it once it is

:23:11.:23:13.

happening and we can only do that together if we don't have a flow of

:23:14.:23:18.

illegal migrants into this country, as opposed to people earning their

:23:19.:23:21.

living, paying their taxes, paying national insurance. That is the

:23:22.:23:26.

choice. We can have visas, because we would have to have if we had a

:23:27.:23:31.

fair 's system, where you didn't discriminate between Bulgaria and

:23:32.:23:36.

France, you have to have visas. And to have visas would be a disaster.

:23:37.:23:42.

There is a Visa waiver. Wouldn't it be a boundary or a block to business

:23:43.:23:46.

and trade if you had a Visa system? This is silly. In terms of tourism,

:23:47.:23:50.

whether it is short-stay or otherwise, in terms of people coming

:23:51.:23:54.

to business trips there's all sorts of arrangements whether it is

:23:55.:23:58.

automated visas or Visa waiver is, but you have the control, but

:23:59.:24:03.

outside of the EU we would regain control and the British people want

:24:04.:24:07.

to see that. Electronic controls four Mbyte cache and dashboard

:24:08.:24:11.

embarkation, you can do it. How are you going to decide how

:24:12.:24:14.

to vote in the EU referendum? And is it in fact possible

:24:15.:24:17.

to predict how you're going to vote, based

:24:18.:24:19.

on where you live, what you earn, and when you finished

:24:20.:24:22.

your education? Norwich used be the second city

:24:23.:24:23.

of medieval England, its prosperity It may have lost that lofty

:24:24.:24:27.

status today, but with the EU referendum, the question of its

:24:28.:24:42.

relation with the European Union, North and if I just walk a few

:24:43.:24:44.

meters down towards Oak Street, I'm heading towards Norwich

:24:45.:24:51.

South and there is no is just Norwich, but there are

:24:52.:24:53.

constituency boundaries and a body of work has been done

:24:54.:24:58.

that suggests the more of work has been done that suggests

:24:59.:25:07.

the more that I walk this way, Why this might be true

:25:08.:25:11.

is not an exact science,

:25:12.:25:15.

but based on data from around Britain, a group

:25:16.:25:17.

of academics are trying

:25:18.:25:19.

to show who we are - our background and education -

:25:20.:25:22.

is not insignificant in this to leave, more educated people

:25:23.:25:25.

are more likely to want to stay, so if you're looking at some

:25:26.:25:34.

of the constituency profiles

:25:35.:25:38.

you can say yes, this be leaning towards remain

:25:39.:25:40.

or leaning towards leave. That is all we are doing,

:25:41.:25:45.

we are just giving a guide to which seats are more

:25:46.:25:48.

or less Eurosceptic. Norwich North's Conservative MP

:25:49.:25:53.

is for remain, but she is aware that the population of

:25:54.:25:55.

her constituency is such that many Indeed, according to

:25:56.:25:59.

the model, they are far It is a slightly older

:26:00.:26:04.

constituency and that is there It is sad to say that they are

:26:05.:26:10.

earning very slightly However, we have high unemployment

:26:11.:26:14.

rates, so that starts to give picture of Norwich North

:26:15.:26:22.

is compared to Norwich South, if you look at

:26:23.:26:30.

the Later we caught up with two

:26:31.:26:31.

self-employed men buying timber, having driven to a yard

:26:32.:26:35.

on the constituency boundary. I can turn my hand to anything,

:26:36.:26:37.

gardening, For Darren and Adrian,

:26:38.:26:39.

the referendum choice is The EU has done nothing for anybody

:26:40.:26:43.

in this country. I can't say that

:26:44.:26:52.

anybody has benefited We can cross-ventilate,

:26:53.:26:58.

because it will come In Norwich South, the University

:26:59.:27:05.

has an enterprise zone and one business specialising

:27:06.:27:13.

in low-energy house design, the graduate-educated founder wants

:27:14.:27:19.

to remain for what she and long-term goals of EU

:27:20.:27:21.

environmental policy. She accepts the theory,

:27:22.:27:24.

though, that who you are People that have maybe

:27:25.:27:26.

knowledge about something and that is affected, either

:27:27.:27:31.

by in or out of the EU, they are better qualified,

:27:32.:27:34.

or maybe it's easier for them to make a decision,

:27:35.:27:36.

because it is clearer to them, because it is something really big

:27:37.:27:40.

that matters to them that they can

:27:41.:27:42.

base their decision on. Labour's MP in Norwich South is,

:27:43.:27:48.

as the model suggests most of his constituency are,

:27:49.:27:54.

for Remain and he thinks that deprived areas that are for Leave

:27:55.:27:57.

are more antiestablishment than People who feel left behind

:27:58.:27:59.

and that the system have failed them will identify with the arguments

:28:00.:28:07.

coming out of the EU which for them is something that sucks lots

:28:08.:28:10.

of money out of the country, does We can list all that,

:28:11.:28:13.

but it is a visceral feeling. I read papers but I don't honestly

:28:14.:28:19.

know what is going on. That visceral feeling

:28:20.:28:22.

comes across on the shop floor at MillTec,

:28:23.:28:24.

outside Norwich. I want to be British,

:28:25.:28:31.

that is my main incentive to be British, I don't

:28:32.:28:33.

want to be European. But the firm has

:28:34.:28:35.

reasons to remain for what they see as economic reasons,

:28:36.:28:38.

and that might be key. Work is probably the

:28:39.:28:41.

biggest part of my life in terms of where I

:28:42.:28:43.

spend most of my time, so that would probably be

:28:44.:28:46.

the Indeed, whatever the

:28:47.:28:48.

data trends, sometime the what's-best-for-you vote

:28:49.:28:54.

is perhaps the only incentive that David Blunkett and Dominic Raab

:28:55.:28:56.

are still with me, and we're now joined by Bert Bakker,

:28:57.:29:06.

Assistant Professor at the University of Amsterdam,

:29:07.:29:08.

who has been looking at what impact different types of personality have

:29:09.:29:12.

on attitudes towards the EU. What is your research finding? My

:29:13.:29:24.

researches about the question to what extent individual differences

:29:25.:29:28.

in personality traits are associated with your beliefs about politics.

:29:29.:29:31.

Perhaps it's best to briefly say what personality is, because you and

:29:32.:29:37.

your viewers at home will be forming an opinion about me. They might say

:29:38.:29:42.

he is shy or talkative. What we do when we study personality traits is

:29:43.:29:45.

we see to what extent people different -- differ in these

:29:46.:29:51.

descriptions. Some people are more open-minded, they are curious in

:29:52.:29:54.

nature. Others are less open-minded and are more dogmatic and bit less

:29:55.:30:00.

rich of fantasy and these differences are not good or bad,

:30:01.:30:03.

people differ and they shape how you respond to the world and change your

:30:04.:30:10.

behaviour in your work life balance or in your work. It at all show

:30:11.:30:15.

shape sure belief about politics. In that sort of instance what sort of

:30:16.:30:16.

person would vote to leave the EU? In the study we done, published

:30:17.:30:29.

recently, we studied Dutch voters and their attitudes towards

:30:30.:30:32.

different aspects on the EU. It is different from vote bug we see

:30:33.:30:36.

people who are in favour of expanding the EU, by adding more

:30:37.:30:40.

countries, such as ice land Turkey, Montenegro, are more open-minded and

:30:41.:30:46.

curious, they are more agreeable, more trusting, caring,

:30:47.:30:50.

tender-minded. These believes are not per se directly one on one,

:30:51.:30:56.

leading to voting for in the UK case, staying in the EU, but they

:30:57.:31:02.

are associated with it, so we have been looking Atajic tuds -- at

:31:03.:31:08.

attitudes. If you are support expanding the EU if, extrapolating

:31:09.:31:13.

my own research, there is probably a chance that open-minded, curious,

:31:14.:31:16.

full of fancy people, are also a little bit more people to be in

:31:17.:31:20.

favour of remaining in the EU. What about anti-EU sentiment? That's

:31:21.:31:27.

then, the opposite. So, if the other end of the dimension, people who are

:31:28.:31:32.

a bit more - and here not to make a value judgment - so these people are

:31:33.:31:36.

a little bit more close-minded, more rigid, perhaps a little bit less

:31:37.:31:42.

full of fantasy. A bit less likely to trust other people. Again, these

:31:43.:31:48.

are co-racials, so we don't know where the one is causing the other

:31:49.:31:56.

-- correlations. Stay with us. So, the obvious question, are you rigid,

:31:57.:32:02.

less full of fantasy, Dominic Raab, as somebody less staying in the EU?

:32:03.:32:07.

You know how open-minded I am. Which shows you how risky it is to

:32:08.:32:12.

introduce stereotypes. I think particularly in relation to

:32:13.:32:14.

undecided voters there are a mixture of head and heart. I took a

:32:15.:32:20.

rationical, logical vote, I'm in the someone who was always in favour of

:32:21.:32:24.

leaving the EU. It was the emotional heart aspect of t I want us to be in

:32:25.:32:29.

control of our own destiny. In particular t seems to me that those

:32:30.:32:32.

campaigning to leave, have the optimism and ambition, whereas those

:32:33.:32:35.

campaigning to stay in the EU, frankly are engaged in a lot of

:32:36.:32:38.

scaring mongering and doing down Britain. I think on the emotional

:32:39.:32:42.

pull factor, that's quite an important thing we have got on our

:32:43.:32:46.

side. Right, if we look at campaigning tactics, David Blunkett,

:32:47.:32:50.

and if you look at what was said in the film by people there, one of the

:32:51.:32:55.

contribute os said - I want to feel British again, and leaving the EU

:32:56.:32:58.

will satisfy that, the employers of one of the companies there, keener

:32:59.:33:02.

to stay in because of economics. Does this help in terms of targeting

:33:03.:33:06.

areas of the country and grouse of people in terms of how they might

:33:07.:33:10.

vote, because of their age or where they live. -- groups. We certainly

:33:11.:33:15.

know more people are more favourable to staying in, partly because many

:33:16.:33:19.

young people have travelled. Many young people have ambition for their

:33:20.:33:24.

own future and they feel that they are engaged in global activity.

:33:25.:33:30.

Whereas, for older people, whose travel experience may have been

:33:31.:33:35.

less, not wholly but may have been less, where fear of difference,

:33:36.:33:38.

where fear of the unknown, where somebody outside appears to be

:33:39.:33:42.

imposing, it is not so you are prizing there is a greater

:33:43.:33:47.

propensity to vote to come out. So here is the challenge - for the

:33:48.:33:51.

stay-in campaign, of which I'm a part. How do we persuade young

:33:52.:33:55.

people who don't usually vote, to vote and how do we persuade those

:33:56.:33:59.

who do normally vote, older people, to switch their vote? And that's why

:34:00.:34:04.

it is on a knife edge. Because that's the challenge. Well, Bert

:34:05.:34:09.

Baaker do you have any advice for the campaigns. Where should they be

:34:10.:34:13.

targeting the areas where they are not making an impact in terms of age

:34:14.:34:19.

and demography So, this is moving beyond the study we have done and

:34:20.:34:23.

extrapolating the findings a little bit but one could say that

:34:24.:34:28.

politicians perhaps could benefit from speaking what we call the

:34:29.:34:33.

psychological language of their constituency. So they might appeal

:34:34.:34:38.

to certain people by, for instance, if you want to persuade perhaps

:34:39.:34:43.

voters who are a bit more open-minded, curious, full of

:34:44.:34:47.

fantasy, like to experience new things, you might point out that

:34:48.:34:56.

staying within the EU offers them the opportunity to be involved in

:34:57.:35:02.

rich culture life to engage with new cultures. To be a part of that. I

:35:03.:35:06.

have not tested this. I have to be careful here. Thank you for

:35:07.:35:09.

clarifying that, at least. Yes. Listen, thank you very much for

:35:10.:35:10.

that. And do you Dominic. Now, what is the secret behind

:35:11.:35:14.

the success of Donald Trump? How did the businessman and TV

:35:15.:35:17.

personality go from rank outsider to presumptive nominee

:35:18.:35:20.

in the race to become the Republican Party's

:35:21.:35:22.

Presidential candidate? The American journalist

:35:23.:35:23.

John Podhoretz is in London today And as a former speech writer

:35:24.:35:25.

to not one but two former Republican Presidents,

:35:26.:35:34.

Ronald Reagan and George Bush Senior, he should

:35:35.:35:36.

have a better idea than most. We'll talk to John in a moment

:35:37.:35:38.

but first let's remind ourselves what Mr Trump has been saying

:35:39.:35:41.

in the last few months. When Mexico sends its people,

:35:42.:35:45.

they are not sending their best. I said - but I think we should go

:35:46.:35:50.

much, much, much further. I'm going to build a wall and Mexico

:35:51.:36:05.

is going to pay for it, right. He took the 50 terrorists

:36:06.:36:15.

and he took 50 men and he dipped 50 Written by a nice reporter,

:36:16.:36:18.

now the poor guy, you have got to see this guy,

:36:19.:36:22.

"Oh, I don't know what I said, He is a war hero

:36:23.:36:24.

because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured,

:36:25.:36:30.

I hate to tell you. He is walking out, big high

:36:31.:36:33.

fives, smiling, laughing, I would like to punch him

:36:34.:36:35.

in the face, I tell you. Donald J Trump is calling

:36:36.:36:39.

for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims

:36:40.:36:43.

entering the United States, until our country's

:36:44.:36:47.

representatives can figure out They must think we are

:36:48.:36:48.

the dumbest and the weakest Memorable if anything else. And John

:36:49.:37:14.

Podhoretz joins us. Be honest, at the start of the primaries did you

:37:15.:37:25.

think Donald Trump would have a chance in No. When did you change

:37:26.:37:28.

your mine? About October. A while ago. The thing is all the evidence

:37:29.:37:33.

in front of one said he was going to win. He led in the poll. He joined

:37:34.:37:38.

the race in June of 2015 and he led in the polls after two weeks. And

:37:39.:37:42.

generally speaking, that's not a bad way to gauge whether someone is or

:37:43.:37:47.

is not going to end up as the party's nominee but it was so wildly

:37:48.:37:52.

improbably. I mean, I'm trying to think of the proper annalcy for a

:37:53.:37:57.

British audience to who Trump is, who probably played this game a lot.

:37:58.:38:03.

The best analogy I can think of is a kind of combination of the guy who

:38:04.:38:10.

used to host your Big Car show, Top Gear. Jeremy Clarkson. And some rich

:38:11.:38:16.

guy who builds buildings. So the notion that somebody like that, who

:38:17.:38:19.

has dabbled and interfered in politics here and there, would, out

:38:20.:38:27.

of nowhere, seize the major party nomination in a field of

:38:28.:38:29.

extraordinarily impressive candidates, marks a real turningp

:38:30.:38:32.

point for the American political system. What do you think was the

:38:33.:38:38.

one factor behind his success? Well, I think there are two. There are

:38:39.:38:43.

immediate factors and global, long-term civilisation factors. The

:38:44.:38:51.

immediate factor is that no other candidate in the race had anything

:38:52.:38:55.

like Trump's ability to command attention, which is one of the

:38:56.:39:00.

things that we thought most of us political experts thought was going

:39:01.:39:03.

it take him down. That the attention was all mostly negative. That he was

:39:04.:39:08.

saying horrendous things. He was repeatedly lying, that he didn't

:39:09.:39:11.

know anything about policy. But the sheer focus of attention on him, and

:39:12.:39:17.

the fact that it only seemed to help, rather than hurt, that was a

:39:18.:39:22.

big thing. But the global, the long-term thing is the collapse of

:39:23.:39:27.

the trust of the American people in its political and social

:39:28.:39:30.

institutions. Well, America isn't alone in suffering from that

:39:31.:39:34.

problem. And that is true, David Blunkett, you can't write off the

:39:35.:39:39.

support that Donald Trump has managed to gather during this race,

:39:40.:39:43.

by just saying they are a load of crazy, angry people on the fringe.

:39:44.:39:47.

No, you can see a resonance in terms of the crazy idea of building a wall

:39:48.:39:52.

and what we were debating in terms of Britain's place in Europe, the

:39:53.:39:56.

idea that you could cut yourself off. That you can do things that are

:39:57.:40:01.

rationally unthinkable, but in terms of inp stint and emotion -- instinct

:40:02.:40:05.

and emotion, capture people. He clearly has done that. I think the

:40:06.:40:12.

last point made was important. I mean, the breakdown of trust in

:40:13.:40:16.

traditional politics, in the ways of doing things that don't have

:40:17.:40:19.

spectacular outcomes, that don't immediately solve problems

:40:20.:40:22.

overnight, that can't actually wave a magic wand and put things right,

:40:23.:40:26.

people have lost trust in that general, slow, but critical process

:40:27.:40:30.

of democracy and when you have lost that, then you will get a Trump

:40:31.:40:34.

coming forward. You will end up with - well, let's pray to - I will

:40:35.:40:40.

anyway, as a methodist - I will pray that Donald Trump doesn't end up

:40:41.:40:45.

being the President of the United States, with Vladimir Putin as the

:40:46.:40:48.

President of Russia and Britain outside the European Union. Right,

:40:49.:40:53.

well there is an image for you to contemplate. People feel

:40:54.:40:57.

marginalised to such an extent that they are prepared to go out on a

:40:58.:41:02.

limb and vote for somebody like Donald Trump? If it were that people

:41:03.:41:06.

felt marginalised that would not be sufficient to explain the

:41:07.:41:09.

phenomenon. It should also be said by the way, as of this point, that

:41:10.:41:13.

2% of the American public has actually voted for Trump. We are

:41:14.:41:17.

simply assuming that we will get to the point at which, you know, he

:41:18.:41:22.

will gather at least 45% of the American vote. How many do you think

:41:23.:41:29.

he will? Well, I'm not sure. I believe that Hillary Clinton will

:41:30.:41:32.

win the election. I think his negatives, as we call them, are

:41:33.:41:36.

sufficiently high among women, among minorities, that there is no way

:41:37.:41:40.

that will he can cobble together a winning coalition but stranger

:41:41.:41:43.

things have happened, I suppose. Not many in politics. But, the

:41:44.:41:47.

institutional collapse I'm thinking of is the trust, not only in

:41:48.:41:52.

political institutions but in cultural and social institutions

:41:53.:41:56.

that often act adds a mediator between politicians and ordinary

:41:57.:42:02.

people. I'm talking about the Catholic Church in the United States

:42:03.:42:07.

which was a widely important force and a much-divorced guy, who is

:42:08.:42:10.

giving money to proabortion groups, that sort of thing, could never have

:42:11.:42:18.

prevailed in the Republican Party or indeed in American politics, 25

:42:19.:42:21.

years ago, in part because of the strength of the church which has

:42:22.:42:24.

collapsed. But we have had Bernie Sanders on the loaf, and socialist

:42:25.:42:30.

Americas were gravitate to him -- on the left. And Hillary Clinton, we

:42:31.:42:44.

are seeing it, to a lesser extent. This is the first election that is

:42:45.:42:48.

on the reckoning of the financial meltdown of 2008. That meltdown

:42:49.:42:52.

happened seven weeks before the election of Barack Obama. Then the

:42:53.:42:57.

2012 election was a referendum on Barack Obama's presidency and what

:42:58.:43:02.

we have here is a reckoning for what happened, the decline in home

:43:03.:43:06.

values, you know of 35 to 40%, it has just gotten to par and all of

:43:07.:43:11.

the consequences that fell from the worse recession in 70 years. And

:43:12.:43:17.

here is the think, if you have time - the 2008 meltdown was something

:43:18.:43:24.

that had to be saved by politics, old-fashioned politics, of people

:43:25.:43:27.

joining in, counterweighting what the market had done and yet it is

:43:28.:43:30.

politics and politicians who have got the blame for the aftermath and

:43:31.:43:35.

the austerity and the difficulty that that has caused. Well, let's

:43:36.:43:38.

see what happens over the coming months. Thank you very much for

:43:39.:43:39.

coming in. One of the more remarkable stories

:43:40.:43:44.

to come out of last week's 'Super Thursday' elections

:43:45.:43:47.

was the political comeback The former Conservative MP was one

:43:48.:43:49.

of seven UKIP politicians elected It's the first time UKIP has had any

:43:50.:43:52.

Assembly Members in Wales. This comes 19 years

:43:53.:43:56.

after Mr Hamilton lost his seat in the House of Commons

:43:57.:43:59.

to the so-called "anti-corruption" candidate Martin Bell

:44:00.:44:01.

in the 1997 general election. In that memorable campaign,

:44:02.:44:04.

for the Cheshire seat of Tatton, the tension between the two men came

:44:05.:44:06.

to a head in a confrontation that became known as "The Battle

:44:07.:44:10.

of Knutsford Heath". And Martin Bell arrived without any

:44:11.:44:13.

further prompting. I'd really like to know

:44:14.:44:22.

from you what allegations of corruption you think

:44:23.:44:28.

I'm guilty of? I don't actually intend

:44:29.:44:30.

to talk about you at all. People are going

:44:31.:44:36.

to ask me about you. I want you to run on your record or

:44:37.:44:38.

against your record, whatever it is. Do you accept a man is innocent

:44:39.:44:42.

unless proved guilty? Do you accept my

:44:43.:44:45.

husband is innocent? Neil Hamilton joins us now

:44:46.:44:51.

from the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff. Congratulations. How does it feel to

:44:52.:45:09.

be back in elected office at almost 20 years? It's amazing, isn't it?

:45:10.:45:15.

Especially at my advanced age. There is life after retirement. What are

:45:16.:45:22.

your thoughts for the coming months? Ukip has never been represented in

:45:23.:45:25.

the National Assembly of Wales before and there are seven of us out

:45:26.:45:29.

of 60 members, so we will be a major presence. Labour doesn't have an

:45:30.:45:33.

absolute majority, so we have the balance of power, so all sorts of

:45:34.:45:36.

things could happen. It could happen if there is not an internal battle

:45:37.:45:40.

in Ukip. Is it correct that this afternoon you will launch a

:45:41.:45:47.

leadership challenge on Nathan Gill? Ukip would not be Ukip if there were

:45:48.:45:54.

not internal challenges. It is not a case of mounting a challenge against

:45:55.:45:59.

Nathan Gill. We have not had any assembly members in the past and we

:46:00.:46:03.

have two former group and then elect a leader it. This is from ground

:46:04.:46:09.

zero -- to form a group. But he has been the group leader. It's not a

:46:10.:46:15.

challenge. He was appointed by Nigel Farage as the leader of Ukip in

:46:16.:46:18.

Wales, and whatever decision we take today will not affect that. But are

:46:19.:46:22.

you going to go for the leadership role? I'm going to be a candidate

:46:23.:46:28.

for the leadership, and my colleagues will decide who they

:46:29.:46:34.

want. I don't see this in terms of challenges or votes. I think what we

:46:35.:46:38.

will do is sit around the table together and we will arrive at a

:46:39.:46:43.

consensus view on who is the preferred leader of the group. Do

:46:44.:46:45.

you not think it would be fair and right to allow Nathan Gill,

:46:46.:46:49.

appointed by Nigel Farage, but as a result you have got assembly

:46:50.:46:54.

members, so he should be the leader and stay the leader? Being the

:46:55.:47:01.

leader of a group is a constitutional position in the

:47:02.:47:04.

assembly and we are obliged by the standing orders of the assembly to

:47:05.:47:08.

elect one. The qualities that you need to be successful in

:47:09.:47:11.

Parliamentary debate are very specific. I have had 14 years as a

:47:12.:47:16.

member of Parliament and I have been a government minister and even,

:47:17.:47:20.

bizarrely, been a member of the EU Council of ministers. I have a

:47:21.:47:23.

lifetime of experience in politics at the top end as well, as I'm sure

:47:24.:47:29.

you would agree, a fair amount of media experience. So I think I have

:47:30.:47:33.

a lot to offer and indeed that will be for my colleagues to decide. What

:47:34.:47:37.

is your game plan if you become leader? What will you tackle first

:47:38.:47:42.

of all? Well, we are not in charge of the business that will come

:47:43.:47:45.

before the assembly, so of course, we have to respond to events to an

:47:46.:47:51.

extent. And in the next few weeks, the referendum will be vitally

:47:52.:47:56.

important, outside the assembly as well, but assembly members will pay

:47:57.:47:59.

late -- play a significant role. Now we have this platform as assembly

:48:00.:48:05.

members in Wales will be out on the stump as well as operating inside

:48:06.:48:07.

the building. Nothing much will happen for several weeks anyway.

:48:08.:48:12.

Let's talk about one issue which has been in the headlines, which is Port

:48:13.:48:16.

Talbot and the steel industry. You mention the EU referendum and Ukip

:48:17.:48:21.

says only a British exit could save the plant at Port Talbot. Even if

:48:22.:48:25.

the UK did leave the EU, any impact on the industry would not be felt

:48:26.:48:29.

for years, and Port Talbot is in crisis now. So what would you

:48:30.:48:35.

suggest to help the industry? If we left the EU, we would be full

:48:36.:48:41.

members of the World Trade Organisation in our own right and we

:48:42.:48:46.

could propose our own anti-dumping duties on the low-cost Chinese

:48:47.:48:49.

steel. That would take time. It certainly would, and in the short

:48:50.:48:58.

term there is a problem because Tata wants to sell their assets and there

:48:59.:49:02.

are several bids for them. It is not for politicians to make a choice

:49:03.:49:05.

between the bidders. But certainly the politicians can help the process

:49:06.:49:12.

along so that one bidder is successful and, in the short term,

:49:13.:49:16.

there will be a reprieve, but what matters for the steel industry is

:49:17.:49:19.

whether it is viable in the longer term and that means cutting energy

:49:20.:49:23.

prices, getting rid of these crazy green taxes that make heavy industry

:49:24.:49:27.

viable in the UK and exporting these jobs to the far east and elsewhere.

:49:28.:49:34.

Only having an independent government, at Westminster or in

:49:35.:49:38.

Cardiff, gives us the power to control our energy prices to the

:49:39.:49:42.

extent that we need to take the best advantage of economic conditions in

:49:43.:49:45.

the rest of the world. Neil Hamilton, thank you very much.

:49:46.:49:47.

75 years ago tonight, the German Luftwaffe

:49:48.:49:49.

launched its heaviest air raid on the capital during

:49:50.:49:51.

The attack killed nearly 1,500 people and another

:49:52.:49:55.

casualty of the raid was the Palace of Westminster.

:49:56.:49:59.

The Commons Chamber was completely destroyed as the fire service

:50:00.:50:02.

focussed on saving the 900-year-old Westminster Hall.

:50:03.:50:12.

MPs spent the next nine years meeting in the Lords' Chamber,

:50:13.:50:15.

while their Lordships sat in the Robing Room.

:50:16.:50:17.

The new building was officially opened by King George VI,

:50:18.:50:19.

NEWSREEL: Today the impressive Churchill Door, built

:50:20.:50:25.

of the old Chamber, gives entrance to the new.

:50:26.:50:29.

The House keeps the old intimate atmosphere.

:50:30.:50:32.

For its furnishing, the dominions and colonies send gifts.

:50:33.:50:36.

The Speakers' Chair is from Australia.

:50:37.:50:39.

The galleries will now hold many more and loud speakers make

:50:40.:50:42.

New Zealand gave two despatch boxes and from Jamaica came the bar

:50:43.:50:49.

which is closed when the House is in session.

:50:50.:50:56.

Now to the Great Hall of Westminster.

:50:57.:50:58.

The Speaker of the House of Commons, Colonel Clifton-Brown,

:50:59.:51:00.

enters as the higher court of parliament assembles

:51:01.:51:02.

for the official opening of the new chamber.

:51:03.:51:04.

On the right, facing the thrones, sit the Commons.

:51:05.:51:06.

Behind the Speaker follow bearers of equal office or their deputies

:51:07.:51:12.

In their presence, they pay tribute to the Mother of Parliaments,

:51:13.:51:20.

from which their own government drew inspiration.

:51:21.:51:31.

And we've been joined by the historian and Labour MP

:51:32.:51:33.

Tristram Hunt and the Conservative MP Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.

:51:34.:51:39.

Welcome to both of you. How much of the building was actually destroyed?

:51:40.:51:46.

They had to make this great decision when you had the raid by the

:51:47.:51:51.

Luftwaffe whether to save the great medieval hall or the Victorian

:51:52.:51:56.

chamber. Quite rightly, they chose to save the medieval hall. So the

:51:57.:52:02.

chamber was absolutely smashed. This was a really big hit by the

:52:03.:52:06.

Luftwaffe. When you go into the chamber at the moment you still see

:52:07.:52:12.

the image, not the image, but you still see those elements which

:52:13.:52:18.

remained after the hit. It is almost like a grotto, that old stone as you

:52:19.:52:22.

going. Is that because those were the only bits that were kept that

:52:23.:52:26.

were not completely destroyed? So everything else is new? Churchill

:52:27.:52:33.

wanted a reminder of what had been, after the terrible damage inflicted

:52:34.:52:37.

by the bullets on this Day 75 years ago -- by the Blitz. He insisted

:52:38.:52:40.

that that was kept rather than rebuild. What about the architect

:52:41.:52:47.

engaged in the rebuilding? They chose the wonderful architect, Giles

:52:48.:52:50.

Gilbert Scott, who designed the gorgeous Anglican Cathedral in

:52:51.:52:54.

Liverpool and Battersea Power Station, and most famously of all,

:52:55.:52:58.

the old telephone boxes with that lovely dome. He was the grandson of

:52:59.:53:06.

the man who designed the wonderful hotel at Saint pancreas, the grand

:53:07.:53:09.

Midland Hotel. Which is an amazing building. So he had got this is in

:53:10.:53:16.

the blood, so the spirit of Scott, down to Giles Scott was there. So it

:53:17.:53:21.

was very much a conscious recreation. The continuity? Yes,

:53:22.:53:28.

continuity. We think of the Palace of Westminster as a celebration of

:53:29.:53:32.

democracy, building dedicated to democracy, but when you look at the

:53:33.:53:36.

care in the Palace, by far the greatest attention to detail and

:53:37.:53:43.

wealth is where the Queen enters the other end, and then down to the

:53:44.:53:46.

House of Lords where it is full of wonderful gold, and by the time you

:53:47.:53:51.

get to the Commons it is pretty and minimal, actually. The celebration

:53:52.:53:55.

of democracy, we are left right at the end. We will come to those

:53:56.:53:59.

comments in the end. What about your family connections? My great uncle

:54:00.:54:04.

was elected speaker in 1943 and one of the first things he had to do was

:54:05.:54:09.

preside over setting up a special House of Commons and House of Lords

:54:10.:54:12.

select committee to consider how to rebuild the chamber. Churchill made

:54:13.:54:16.

that great speech on the day saying we had to rebuild it as a symbol of

:54:17.:54:20.

Parliamentary continuity, and he said there must be no awkward gap,

:54:21.:54:25.

no hiatus in Parliamentary life. And it was Julie rebuilt. The committee

:54:26.:54:34.

was set up in 1943 and work started in 1944. By 1948 Churchill and my

:54:35.:54:39.

great-uncle laid the foundation stone. And by the 26th of October

:54:40.:54:46.

1950, they were all taking their seats in the new chamber, so in just

:54:47.:54:50.

nine years they had gone from nothing, and for those were war

:54:51.:54:54.

years, they had gone from a bombed chamber a brand-new chamber. Shows

:54:55.:54:59.

what can be achieved when you had the will. Churchill had to fight

:55:00.:55:02.

this battle because others say they wanted to do it after the war. He

:55:03.:55:07.

said do it now, because as soon as you come after the war there will be

:55:08.:55:10.

incredible demands on resources and there is always a time not to do it.

:55:11.:55:14.

Get on with it now. What about the reconstruction now, David Blunkett?

:55:15.:55:19.

That was then, and it has stood the test of time to a certain degree but

:55:20.:55:22.

all we hear about now is how it is crumbling. Ironically, Tristram was

:55:23.:55:28.

speaking at the University later this week, and the man who heads up

:55:29.:55:32.

the centre is engaged with the Palace of Westminster authority in

:55:33.:55:37.

terms of what comes after the restoration project. How should we

:55:38.:55:40.

shape what goes on inside the new building? It won't be the Luftwaffe

:55:41.:55:45.

at this time, it will be a massive multi-million pound renewal scheme.

:55:46.:55:50.

And the question that wasn't asked in the Second World War needs to be

:55:51.:55:54.

asked now, what sort of democracy and what sort of Parliament and what

:55:55.:55:58.

sort of activity do we want going on in there? How can we reshape,

:55:59.:56:04.

without losing all of the history, and of course the majesty of what

:56:05.:56:08.

goes on? I'm in the glorious bit at the moment. You enjoy it while it

:56:09.:56:18.

lasts. The old bed. -- the old bit. How do you envisage it? The

:56:19.:56:21.

continuity was there in the fabric of the building, but what about

:56:22.:56:24.

inside? We started talking about this in the beginning of the last

:56:25.:56:28.

parliament in 2010 and by my calculations it will not be built

:56:29.:56:34.

until 2028. That is a long, long time, much longer than they were

:56:35.:56:37.

able to do just the Second World War. And the answer to David's

:56:38.:56:42.

question, and he's absolutely right, we talked about the grand project

:56:43.:56:47.

and these billions in costs, but we haven't really concentrated on what

:56:48.:56:52.

we want to see inside. Should it be a modern looking building inside?

:56:53.:56:56.

This was the conversation they had during World War II. Do you then go

:56:57.:57:02.

to your semicircle, horseshoe shaped Parliament, to reshape how we do

:57:03.:57:06.

democracy and again Churchill was absolutely clear. Part of the reason

:57:07.:57:12.

we were at war with a continent was because we were against horseshoe

:57:13.:57:15.

parliaments. He felt that the rigour of the Parliamentary process on the

:57:16.:57:24.

British way was essential to the representative democracy and the

:57:25.:57:28.

freedoms we had, and if we lost that part of the symbols of what we were

:57:29.:57:33.

fighting for would be lost. There was inevitably an argument about

:57:34.:57:36.

where we should put it. There was a strong argument for Potters bar in

:57:37.:57:44.

1944. Two Labour MPs said, critically, there should be no

:57:45.:57:51.

essential decorations of pink. No, we are going to cap it here, because

:57:52.:57:52.

we're doing the answer to the quiz. who did Jeremy Corbyn

:57:53.:57:55.

meet last night? Congratulations to Siddique Khan.

:57:56.:58:12.

What about relationships between Jeremy Corbyn and him? Are they

:58:13.:58:19.

going to improve? From when? From now. He didn't want him anywhere

:58:20.:58:26.

near him during the campaign. Having nominated him, I thought it was

:58:27.:58:30.

quite sensible in Bristol, and I thought the win in Bristol was

:58:31.:58:34.

important, and you have to stop, as we sit it, being London centric all

:58:35.:58:36.

the time. On that basis we won't be. Thanks to David Blunkett

:58:37.:58:39.

and all my guests. The One o'clock News is starting

:58:40.:58:45.

over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11:30am tomorrow

:58:46.:58:48.

with Andrew for live coverage Drinking small amounts of alcohol

:58:49.:58:51.

isn't without risk. Eat more of this,

:58:52.:59:06.

drink more of that - can we really eat and drink

:59:07.:59:14.

our way to better health? Because my mother had dementia,

:59:15.:59:18.

there's always that anxiety - is it genetic? Is it something

:59:19.:59:22.

they've passed on to me?

:59:23.:59:26.

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