Browse content similar to 13/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello A and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
As a potential shortage of one of life's essentials, Marmite, | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
is being blamed on Brexit thanks to the fall in the pound, | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
there are continued calls for Parliament to have a vote | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
Today the campaign by Remain supporters has even reached | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
the courts - but are these legitimate attempts to hold | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
the government to account and give parliament its proper role, | :01:00. | :01:01. | |
or just sour grapes on the part of a losing side that won't give | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
The SNP is holding its annual conference in Glasgow, | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
and Nicola Sturgeon has signalled she intends to press | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
ahead with legislating for a second | :01:12. | :01:12. | |
We'll be speaking to the party's new, freshly elected, deputy leader. | :01:13. | :01:21. | |
A new report says that Britain's cities have all the money, | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
but because it's not shared around you might be better off | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
We'll discuss it with one urban and one rural MP. | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
And according to a group of university academics, | :01:35. | :01:36. | |
David Cameron has joined the hall of shame of Britain's worst | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
We'll be asking if that's harsh, or fair. | :01:40. | :01:53. | |
Perspective. That was the motto of the Daleks. -- could be harsh but | :01:54. | :02:01. | |
they are, depending on your perspective. | :02:02. | :02:02. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the duration | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
She was an adviser to former Work and Pensions Secretary | :02:06. | :02:14. | |
Iain Duncan Smith, and she's now head of something called | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
Jo tells me Legatum is a Latin word, meaning legacy. | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
We haven't yet worked out the meaning of Institute. | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
Apparently its job is to spread prosperity. | :02:26. | :02:27. | |
Let's hope she can spread a bit around the studio while she's here. | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
Have you? It is about social as well as economic prosperity. | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
First today you'll be staggered to hear we're going to be | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
It continues to be the issue dominating politics at Westminster, | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
cutting across nearly every other area of national debate, | :02:45. | :02:46. | |
and dividing parties in some surprising ways. | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
Yesterday saw MPs demanding more of a say on Brexit in the Commons. | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
Today, that challenge has moved to the courts. | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
Yes, today's challenge is to do with whether the Government can | :03:04. | :03:05. | |
exercise the Royal perogative to take Britain out | :03:06. | :03:07. | |
of the EU without seeking Parliamentary approval. | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
The case, which has been brought by a group of people including | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
an investment manager and a London hairdresser, could have major | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
Well, our legal correspondent, Clive Coleman, is at the High Court. | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
What chance does it have success? Sorry, there is an extremely loud | :03:23. | :03:34. | |
ambulance going by. What chance does it have of success? Reasonable is | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
the short answer. This is a perfectly respectable legal argument | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
that is being brought and it goes like this. It says that the | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
government, the executive, cannot lawfully, under our Constitution, | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
use royal prerogative powers. These are a collection of executive powers | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
derived from the crowd and then go back to medieval times when monarchs | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
could pretty much do whatever they liked. The government cannot | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
lawfully use prerogative powers to trigger Article 50, and what they | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
need is the authority of an act of Parliament to do so. The government | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
to take a different view. They say they are perfectly and lawfully and | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
constitutionally entitled to use prerogative powers because | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
essentially what we are doing is extricating ourselves from an | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
international treaty and that is a prime example of where prerogative | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
powers are preserved. But there is a battle royal going on in the Lord | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
Chief Justice's caught behind me. 20 or so barristers appearing in this | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
case. Lord Paddick at QC for the businesswoman bringing this | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
challenge has said that the case raised issues of fundamental concert | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
usual importance and the real nitty-gritty of this is that if the | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
government use the royal prerogative to trigger Article 50, they will be | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
obliterating rights enshrined in the 1972 European Community is act, and | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
he said that it is no answer for the government to say they will restore | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
rights later with an appeal bill. This is a rates will fall away and | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
they cannot do that. What about the timing? We know that Theresa May | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
intends to invoke Article 50 by March, so could that frustrate the | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
timing? I don't think this will stop Brexit but it could frustrate the | :05:29. | :05:37. | |
timing. Whichever side losers, inevitably they will take this to | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
the Supreme Court. And we don't know quite how long that will take but it | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
could be well into the New Year. It could have a serious effect on the | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
timing of all this, and the manner in which we Brexit. A break from | :05:50. | :05:59. | |
Brexit, some breaking news. Bob Dylan has won the Nobel literature | :06:00. | :06:07. | |
prize 2016 for creating new poetic expressions within the great | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
American song book. Bob Dylan wins the Nobel Prize for literature. Who | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
saw that coming? And now, let's go back to Brexit. | :06:18. | :06:18. | |
The question of Parliamentary scrutiny of the Brexit vote | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
was debated at length in the Commons yesterday. | :06:22. | :06:23. | |
The Secretary of State for Exiting the EU, David Davis, | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
faced hostile questioning from the opposition benches and some | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
remain-supporting Conservatives over the role Parliament should play | :06:31. | :06:32. | |
We are debating a fundamental question, and that is whether the | :06:33. | :06:47. | |
basic plans for exiting, for the negotiating position are going to be | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
put before the house or not. That really matters. Of course there is a | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
degree of detail that cannot be gone into, and of course there is | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
flexibility that has to be there and of course the starting position may | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
not be the end position. We all accept that and we are all grown up. | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
So, we can make sure the decision people made on June 23rd | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
We need to be explicit that while we commend and welcome | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
parliamentary scrutiny, it must not be used as a vehicle | :07:14. | :07:15. | |
to undermine the Government's negotiating position or thwart | :07:16. | :07:17. | |
We're joined now by the Conservative MP Bernard Jenkin, he was a Leave | :07:18. | :07:35. | |
supporter, and by the Labour MP Emma Reynold - she supported remain. | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
Welcome to you both. When the government triggers Article 50 to | :07:39. | :07:46. | |
begin the negotiating process, do you want Parliament to vote on that | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
before it triggers? I want Parliament to vote on the terms but | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
I am seeking that not to block the triggering of Article 50, but so | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
that we can have a proper discussion from representatives of all | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
different corners of the United Kingdom in an attempt to bring our | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
country back together again on what kind of Brexit we want. Because | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
people voted Leave for so many different reasons and there are so | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
many different forms that leaving the EU could take that I think | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
Parliament should have a role in scrutinising the government's | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
negotiating strategy and helping to make sure we get the best outcome. | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
So you think the government should publish its negotiating strategy, | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
put it before Parliament and then have a vote? I think the government | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
should make clear what its principal objectives are. That does not mean | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
necessarily publishing the negotiating strategy but certainly I | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
would like the government to prioritise the best possible access | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
to the single market, because I think business is getting very | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
jittery about that. Equally there are other considerations that needs | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
to be taken into account. But should Parliament vote on it? I think | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
Parliament should. But seven out of ten Labour MPs are like me. They | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
campaigned to remain but they have constituencies, and the majority of | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
constituents voted to leave. Therefore we do not want to thwart | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
the will of the people. I understand that. What would be wrong with that? | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
Well, the only reason some people are trying to get tabled in | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
Parliament on Article 50 is presumably so they can vote it. Why | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
do you say that? It is simply not true. What is the point of having a | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
vote on something if we are all going to vote for it. Last night | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
your party put down a motion where there was a huge row, which turned | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
out not to be a row about anything because we voted in the same way. | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
But you are someone who has always stood up for Parliamentary scrutiny | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
of the executive but on this point you were saying there should not be | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
scrutiny. It is a separate issue. I think that is perfectly legitimate | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
and that is why we supported the motion yesterday. So, should the | :10:00. | :10:09. | |
government publish the broad outlines of how it will approach the | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
negotiations? I am certain that is what the government is going to do. | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
And should it seek Parliamentary approval for that broad outline? If | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
the government does not maintain the confidence of the House of Commons | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
in its negotiating position, it will finish up losing a vote. So why not | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
have a vote? The opposition had the opportunity to put down a motion | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
yesterday about what they wanted in the withdrawal agreement and they | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
did not put anything down. But the opposition does not run the country, | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
the government does. They wanted a row about procedure. But I am not. | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
What would be wrong, and I perfectly understand the point that you do not | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
lay out your negotiating position, that would be absurd, you would tell | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
the other side, but we lay out as a country the broad objectives, and we | :10:59. | :11:06. | |
put these before Parliament and Parliament has a vote to say, yes, | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
that is the broad outline and then you go forward. What would be wrong | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
with that? One of the questions that people keep asking me, is the | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
government going to be inside or outside the single market? Now, that | :11:21. | :11:29. | |
is an issue that might be traded with a lot of other issues. And that | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
could be covered by the government seeking to have the broadest | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
possible access to the single market. Personally, I would argue | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
that what the Prime Minister has said makes it quite clear. We are | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
not going to be in the single market. I think if that is going to | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
be the policy, the government needs to make the case. But they need to | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
be clear about that because they have not been. David Davis said | :11:52. | :11:53. | |
precisely nothing about that. What would happen if a vote to trigger | :11:54. | :12:02. | |
Article 50 was put before Parliament and Parliament voted against it? | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
Firstly, I do not think that will happen. How would you vote? I will | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
not be voting against the triggering of Article 50. Unless they come up | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
with a very, very hard Brexit plan and put that before Parliament. I | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
think it would be a question, and I think it will be very unlikely, | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
because the majority of MPs voted to remain on your side and our side, | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
and we now accept the result because we are Democrats. But I do think | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
that some of these issues, particularly access to the single | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
market, is so important and actually business is crying out for clarity | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
on this as well. Let me come back to that issue. It is one that you have | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
mentioned several times. Philippa, you have written the Parliament | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
house to deliver an Brexit or we will face a constitutional crisis of | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
the highest order. What do you mean by that? What we meant was we have | :12:59. | :13:07. | |
recently published a report looking at what was underneath the vote, and | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
why people voted the way that they did. And what became very obvious | :13:13. | :13:20. | |
was that the people expect, the 52% who voted to leave absolutely expect | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
their vote to be delivered upon. Were that not to be the case, as | :13:26. | :13:33. | |
Emma has outlined, if Parliament voted against the government's | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
proposal, the would be a constitutional crisis. That would be | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
extreme. I don't think that will happen. Maybe not in the Commons but | :13:41. | :13:56. | |
the Lords is 6-1 against Brexit. Is there a mood in there to thwart the | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
referendum result. Like there is in the Commons, there are numbers of | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
members of the House of Lords who are very uncomfortable about Brexit. | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
I am not sure that they would actually push it to thwarting the | :14:08. | :14:18. | |
democratic will of the nation. I don't think they would do that | :14:19. | :14:20. | |
although there was a lot of manoeuvring going on. I will come | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
back to this issue but I want to play a short clip from the Foreign | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
Secretary. He is called Boris Johnson and he was being quizzed in | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
parliament, in the committee yesterday, about it. Let's hear what | :14:35. | :14:35. | |
he had to say this morning. Nobody appears to have | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
a Scooby, if you like, I tell you what, I will | :14:39. | :14:40. | |
do it one last time. Is it even your objective to retain | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
membership of the Single Market? Well, we are leaving | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
the European Union. Let me try - you seem | :14:49. | :14:49. | |
to think the Single Market is sort of like, you know, | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
the Groucho Club or something. We will continue to have | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
access for trade in goods I think we'll do a deal that will be | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
to the benefit of both sides. That was Boris Johnson, telling us | :15:10. | :15:27. | |
that membership of the single market is not like membership of the | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
Groucho Club. Don't tell me there is no parliamentary scrutiny going on. | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
It is a major development that we probably didn't know, that there was | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
a difference between the Groucho Club and the European Union. On this | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
business of the single market, surely the Government will say no | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
more than that we are going to go for as much access to the single | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
market, as is consistent with leaving the EU. Isn't that all it | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
can say, surely? Well, if they had said that clearly at their | :16:00. | :16:01. | |
conference, perhaps we wouldn't have had the jitters in the market and | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
business we have seen. Unfortunately at their conference they put | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
immigration above all else. I do think we need it tackle people's | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
concerns about immigration, by the way but if they'd said - we want the | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
best-possible access... Exactly what they said I didn't hear them say | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
that loud and clear. I heard the Home Secretary about naming and | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
shaming companies that employ... They did, I was in Birmingham. I | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
heard them talk about immigration for about four days. They want the | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
best access. The issue is that no-one can tell us what the best | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
access means. We won't know that. But if you take the position, as the | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
Government does, that we should no longer be justiceable by the | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
European Court of Justice, if you take the position, as the Government | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
does, that our borders should be controlled, including from the EU | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
and migration and if you take the position, as the Government does, | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
that we should have the freedom to make our own free trade agreements, | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
it surely follow, that although we could still have quite wide access | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
to the single market, we could not be a member on any one of these | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
conditions? Well, I think that's right but then I don't understand | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
why the Foreign Secretary doesn't answer that question. Obviously, | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
there is still the EEA, which is slightly different but still has | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
some of the same issues that you outline. They don't have the ECJ, | :17:23. | :17:30. | |
they have a different court. Where you study court, it is jurisprudence | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
on ECJ law. I think it is clear from what the Government has said they | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
don't want access to the single market. Quite why they don't say it, | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
I don't know. If that is conceded, before you have started your | :17:46. | :17:47. | |
negotiation, you are making a concession which you don't need to | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
make at this stage. Isn't it clear that is what they mean. Personally | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
that's my view. So why are they so hesitant to say it. The other | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
reason, of course s that David Cameron forbade Whitehall to make | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
any preparations for Brexit, and, therefore, a great many officials | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
and ministers are still getting their brains around the whole | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
business of what Brexit means and how it is going to work. One of your | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
MPs from the backbenches yesterday contradicted that and said there had | :18:18. | :18:19. | |
actually been some work asome preparation. All that happened was - | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
I'm Chairman of the committee she was referring to. The Constitutional | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
Affairs Committee. The Cabinet Secretary told us that he had had an | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
away day with Permanent Secretaries a few weeks before the referendum | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
without the knowledge of the Prime Minister and wouted the knowledge of | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Was it the Groucho Club? I don't know | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
where it was held, the location has not been disclosed. It was. | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
My guess, is that although everything that is said, the logic | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
is that we can no longer be a member of the single market, it doesn't | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
want to admit that at the moment because it is going to put in a max | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
mallist negotiating position and it is going to say - well, we would | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
still like to be a member but we are not going to be in the ECJ and all | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
the rest and then it'll get knocked back from that max mallist position. | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
I think we are seeing an emerging of a negotiating position. So you have | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
the strongest line that came out at conference, of the Britain's | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
position and then at that weekend... What was the strongest line? Which | :19:25. | :19:31. | |
was that, the triggering of Article 50, the Great Repeal Bill. Don't you | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
mean the great incorporation bill, that incorporates the EU law into | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
domestic legislation. The Great Consolidation Bill. In order to | :19:44. | :19:51. | |
smooth transition and have security on transition but then you have the | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
European Union response, that it damages businesses. Well they are | :19:57. | :20:07. | |
putting their maximist position. ! Briefly Can I make one point. If we | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
are going to leave the single market, and that's going to be the | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
outcome, the Government has to make the case and reassure about that | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
because a lot of people have legitimate concerns about what they | :20:21. | :20:22. | |
don't know. But when does the Government start doing, that at the | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
moment, as you say even from the clip of Boris Johnson being | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
interviewed, I had Chris Grayling of the Tory conference telling me, that | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
there was no such thing as membership of the single market | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
Well, it is absolutely true. It is not There is something the EU calls | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
the internal market and you can be in the internal market if you | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
subscribe to either membership of the European economic area, or | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
membership of the European... For all intents and purposes you are a | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
member. What business are worried about is falling back on WTO member | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
sh. That's why Nissan has said they'll make no further investment | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
in Sunderland. This is the real discussion. It is. I don't think we | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
should fall back on that membership. Is that the problem about not having | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
a running commentary that it is being filled by... We need to be | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
able to reassure people. There will be huge advantages of being outside | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
the single market. I disagree with that. We should debate I'm glad to | :21:19. | :21:27. | |
have that debate. We will have that debate - to. Put down a Megs for | :21:28. | :21:37. | |
Opposition Day. Put down a motion. | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
So is she Reynolds with an S? I'll jump in. They will never go. | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
Yesterday as MPs debated Brexit in the Commons chamber - | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
and more on that in a moment - speaker John Bercow had to give one | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
MP, the SNP's Angus MacNeill, a bit of a ticking off for what he | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
So, what had Mr MacNeill done wrong? | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
At the end of the show Philippa will give us the correct answer. | :22:01. | :22:14. | |
Although I image she has absolutely no clue whatsoever. | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
Now, our Guest of the Day, Philippa Stroud, used to be | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
an adviser to the former Work and Pensions Secretary, | :22:21. | :22:22. | |
Iain Duncan Smith, and she played a big part in shaping the last | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
Coalition Government's welfare reforms such as the introduction | :22:26. | :22:27. | |
But just this week a report from the Office for Budget Responsibility | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
concluded that the big headline-grabbing reforms have not | :22:34. | :22:35. | |
been very good at saving money - a problem faced by governments | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
My company was one of the first to sign up to the New Deal. | :22:39. | :22:51. | |
It's about giving young people the opportunity to go to work. | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
Despite New Labour's desire to encourage benefit recipients | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
to pull their weight in work, welfare spending grew 40% | :23:00. | :23:01. | |
The subsequent Coalition Government pledged to cut the large | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
deficit they inherited and decrease welfare spending. | :23:07. | :23:08. | |
If you go back to before the financial crisis, | :23:09. | :23:10. | |
we were spending about 10% of national income | :23:11. | :23:12. | |
During the course of the financial crisis, that bounced | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
That's basically because a lot of benefits were being raised | :23:19. | :23:27. | |
in line with inflation at a time that the economy was shrinking. | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
So, essentially, what has happened over the last Parliament, | :23:31. | :23:32. | |
and is continuing to happen over this one, is that the Government | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
is getting that number back to 10% again. | :23:36. | :23:37. | |
The rate of spending on welfare was decreased over the last six | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
years when the Coalition Government cut benefits for high earnersp | :23:41. | :23:42. | |
But the real savings, the big savings were achieved | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
when the former Chancellor, George Osborne, increased | :23:48. | :23:49. | |
the benefits that most people got, at a lower rate | :23:50. | :23:51. | |
Uprating benefits at 1% means people get more cash but less | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
than the rate of inflation and, taken together, we will save ?3.7 | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
billion in 2015-16 and deliver permanent savings each and every | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
year from our country's welfare bill. | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
But there were setbacks for the Chancellor, | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
A so-called bedroom tax in unoccupied space in council homes | :24:19. | :24:27. | |
would have decreased housing benefit, were it not | :24:28. | :24:29. | |
Also, a year ago, the Government was dealt a major blow | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
after the House of Lords voted twice to delay cuts in tax credits, | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
and earlier this month, the retesting for eligibility | :24:38. | :24:39. | |
for disability benefit was dropped for recipients with severe | :24:40. | :24:41. | |
conditions and no prospect of getting better. | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
So, what is the secret to cutting welfare spending effectively? | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
The experience has been that those structural reforms have not gone | :24:49. | :24:50. | |
as quickly as Government had hoped and haven't saved as much money | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
They are a very complicated thing to do and it's turned out to be that | :24:54. | :25:02. | |
simply making benefits less generous has been a much more reliable way | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
to get the total amount of spending down. | :25:06. | :25:07. | |
So, on that basis, we shouldn't be surprised that merging six benefits | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
into one and moving seven million people on to a new Universal Credit | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
It was originally launched three years ago by the then Work | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, but it's been | :25:20. | :25:21. | |
You said in September the system was working, | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
We are now also looking at Universal Credit as something | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
that is designed to save money, relative to the benefits it's | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
replacing, rather than the earlier vision that it should be | :25:36. | :25:37. | |
So that change and the current four-year freeze to many benefits, | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
means the rate of welfare spending continues to fall. | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
And we're joined now by Torsten Bell, who used to be | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
Labour's Director of Policy, but now he's directing | :25:53. | :25:54. | |
the think-tank Resolution Foundation. | :25:55. | :25:56. | |
Welcome back to the programme. Philippa Stroud, you were an advisor | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
to Duncan Smith in the last Parliament. Do you think Theresa | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
May's Government is as committed to his welfare reforms? I do think | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
Theresa May - well, is committed to his welfare reforms, particularly to | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
Universal Credit. Some of the other reforms, because she wants to go for | :26:18. | :26:24. | |
the group who are just managing - and we have seen already on | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
disability there that she had long-term conditions - that people | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
who have long-term conditions, she has eased up a little on. But I do | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
think she is committed to actual welfare reform, not necessarily all | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
the saving but actual welfare reform that leads to a making work pay | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
agenda. To the structural changes we heard in the film are happening | :26:47. | :26:48. | |
slightly more slowly than anticipated and they are not making | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
the savings. Is she right? I do think she is right, yes. So was Iain | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
Duncan Smith, were you wrong at that time for pushing too hard for just | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
cost-cutting? We were not pushing for just cost-cutting. We were doing | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
the major reforms at a time of austerity. That is really | :27:06. | :27:14. | |
challenging. When we - at the Centre for Social Justice - designed | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
Universal Credit, we had not envisaged having to do it in the | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
economic climate T would be amazing, always to do welfare reform, not in | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
a difficult economic climate but we didn't have that luxury. You are | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
looking sceptical. It is how I look in general. It is a feature. I take | :27:32. | :27:38. | |
that on board. But do you accept Philippa's claim that these big | :27:39. | :27:40. | |
reforms, Universal Credit, did become more difficult during a time | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
of austerity As a statement of fact as is harder to deliver large | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
structural reforms when there is less money around, yes. On Theresa | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
May and her plans now, what appears to be clear is she is committed to | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
delivering Universal Credit, although I would say as a | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
approximately policy rather than a religious fervour that it may have | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
been for the past Government. What is not clear yet and this'll have to | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
make a decision in the Autumn Statement - are they committed to | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
so. Changes made to the Universal Credit towards the end of George | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
Osborne's time as Chancellor that do seriously limit the benefits that | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
the Universal Credit is meant to bring. If she isn't committed to | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
those, it is very sensible because that is what will make Universal | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
Credit able to tackle some of the big problems we face in the 21st | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
century not the 1990s or 1980s. You said you weren't committed to just | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
cost cutting but it was structural reforms but Iain Duncan Smith said | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
he was resigned because there was too much cost-cutting by the | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
Treasury. Did you experience that? Yes, I mean, yes, course he resigned | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
because of that. There was always a tension between a reforming agenda | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
and what is Chancellor has to do to bring budgets under control. I mean | :28:53. | :28:59. | |
that is going to be written into the anles of history that there was that | :29:00. | :29:07. | |
tension. I can agree, we saw at the back end - just before everything | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
changed and the change of Chancellor, we saw the tax credit | :29:12. | :29:18. | |
cuts reinstated. I would agree that, actually, if Theresa May wants to be | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
the Prime Minister focussed on those who are just managing, that money | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
now needs to be reinvested back into Universal Credit. Right. I would | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
agree with that. On that basis, you say that was the right decision at | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
the time to reinstate those tax credit reversals, although in a way | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
they are just moving money along, aren't they? It is not going to make | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
that much ditches over a period of time? It'll make a lot of difference | :29:42. | :29:49. | |
to people right now who would have been ?3,000 worse off and they are | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
now not. The issue underpinning this is what is the welfare changes that | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
this new, the new Government, Theresa May inherited and what do | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
they want to do? Those are basically to make Universal Credit a | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
cost-saving advice, rather than welfare reform, saving ?3 billion by | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
2020. That brings with it a serious problem - the problem that we as a | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
country face now, low-pay, poverty, in-work Poff Tyne a lack of | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
progression in work and the changes that are being made to Universal | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
Credit, make it as a welfare tool, much peerer at dealing with those | :30:21. | :30:21. | |
problems. He was if you agree with that, what | :30:22. | :30:31. | |
is your view that seems to be discussed in government, an | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
increasing work allowances? If you are talking about the people that | :30:36. | :30:37. | |
Theresa May would like to help, people who are struggling, how much | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
can people learn before they start to lose benefits, would you be in | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
favour of that even though it costs money? There are lots of different | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
ways in which you give money to those who are doing the right thing | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
and in work, even at low pay. One of the ways in which George did it was | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
that he raised the tax threshold. It is a very expensive way. And also | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
everyone benefits. You and I benefit, everyone benefits. But some | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
people earn below the threshold. But the ones who are paying taxes... And | :31:11. | :31:27. | |
if you want that sends of, I am in work, so it makes a difference... So | :31:28. | :31:28. | |
that seems to be the discussion that is going on. Would you be in favour | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
of that? It is a good idea and it towards people that are working. It | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
encourages them that if they earn an extra pound, they do not lose 76% of | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
it in Universal Credit. The government has spoken about tax | :31:44. | :31:50. | |
rises and they are committed to ?2 billion worth of tax cuts over the | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
next to my dears. Simply not doing that would give them enough money to | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
reverse all the cuts. What do you think about that? -- the next two | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
years. I would invest that money into Universal Credit. Damian Green | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
scrapped at the repeat medical assessment benefits for claimants | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
with long-term sickness. It did cause a lot of pain and suffering | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
for a significant number of people. Why was this not introduced while | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
you were working in the department? It is actually something we were | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
already looking at. But you did not introduce it? Reforms have to be | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
done steadily. A green paper had already been announced which was | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
going to bleed to a white Paper looking at precisely this issue, and | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
a whole range of issues, like how do you support disabled people who want | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
to work? They have managed to do at relatively quickly. One feels that | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
either there was a reluctance by Iain Duncan Smith or he was | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
overruled? Well, as I said before, there were always battles between | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
the Treasury, it was always very tight. But he was genuinely | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
committed to it? To reversing it? Yes. | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
The Scottish National Party conference has opened | :33:05. | :33:05. | |
First Minster and party leader Nicola Sturgeon has been talking | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
about how she'll respond to the Brexit vote, but the other | :33:14. | :33:15. | |
big question looming over the party is when it might begin a serious | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
drive for a second referendum on Scottish independence. | :33:20. | :33:20. | |
Our Adam's been to Dundee to find out more. | :33:21. | :33:22. | |
Captin Scott's old ship, the Discovery. | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
It's also one of the few places that voted yes to independence | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
So let's put the two things together and discover if there is appetite | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
Former SNP candidate, Tony, wants to get things moving | :33:36. | :33:46. | |
And he's proposing a vote on another referendum at the party's | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
The resolution is saying that the people of Scotland voted | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
And if Theresa May will not respect that vote, | :33:56. | :34:08. | |
we will be left with no choice but to move forward to a second | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
independence referendum and start preparing for a second | :34:13. | :34:14. | |
But the SNP leadership here in Dundee and the First Minister, | :34:15. | :34:21. | |
Nicola Sturegon, reckon another referendum is probably a bit further | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
Nicola has already said it's the Scottish | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
people who will decide when there is a referendum | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
and that is something which I think politicians and indeed journalists | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
south of the border find very hard to understand. | :34:37. | :34:45. | |
They see a future dominated by party politics, by politicians. | :34:46. | :34:47. | |
I think she's perfectly correct to say that when the people | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
are showing a demand for a referendum, that is | :34:51. | :34:52. | |
Come along if you have the evening free. | :34:53. | :35:06. | |
Out of everyone, the Scottish Socialists are the keenest | :35:07. | :35:08. | |
So keen, they are handing out leaflets about it in the rain. | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
I think the SNP are being very caution about it. | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
They have to balance all their interests as a party | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
whereas the grassroots movement has more leeway, they can go out | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
and have the conversations that need to be had. | :35:23. | :35:24. | |
Whereas the SNP, they have local elections next year | :35:25. | :35:32. | |
and their own party advantage to think about, | :35:33. | :35:34. | |
are itching to get back to talking the vote. | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
The opinion polls show that the Scottish people aren't any | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
more or less ready to sail away from the rest of the UK, | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
and it is the Government in London at the helm because only | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
they have the power to offer a legally binding second vote. | :35:47. | :35:48. | |
Well, as Adam said, a second independence referendum needs to be | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
agreed by the UK Government, and it's not clear when the SNP | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
But First Minister Nicola Sturgeon made a serious statement | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
of intent this morning, as she announced plans to publish | :36:00. | :36:01. | |
a draft referendum bill as early as next week. | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
On the morning after the referendum, I said I would protect Scotland's | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
In our programme for government, I committed to publishing | :36:12. | :36:19. | |
I am determined that Scotland will have the ability to reconsider | :36:20. | :36:26. | |
the question of independence, and to do so before the UK leaves | :36:27. | :36:28. | |
the EU, if that is necessary to protect our country's interests. | :36:29. | :36:37. | |
So, I can confirm today that the independence referendum | :36:38. | :36:47. | |
bill will be published for consultation next week. | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
Well, the other big news from the SNP conference this morning | :36:51. | :37:03. | |
is that the party has elected a new Deputy Leader - | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
or Depute as they say in Scotland - it's Angus Robertson and I'm | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
pleased to say we're joined by him now. | :37:13. | :37:14. | |
Welcome back. He launched the lemur gloss the Scottish referendum in | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
2014 but you want another one. You lost the Brexit referendum this year | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
but you want to try to thwart the Brexit process. Do you need to take | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
remedial classes in democracy? You missed out the key important fact in | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
there which was that 62% of people in Scotland voted to remain in the | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
European Union as Democrats, and we believe that if the people voted | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
that way, they should remain. But we voted as the United Kingdom, we did | :37:46. | :37:48. | |
not vote in Scotland, Wales or England. If you would be so kind as | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
to let me finish answering your first question, it would also be | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
fair to point out that in 2014 many people who voted no to Scottish | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
independence did so because they were told that unless they did we | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
would find ourselves out of the European Union. Things have been | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
turned on their head. We are facing the prospect of being taken out of | :38:10. | :38:11. | |
the European Union against the wish of the majority of people in | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
Scotland and that is why it behoves all Scottish leaders to work | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
together to find ways of protecting our place in Europe and that is why | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
we have signalled that we are prepared to work with the UK | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
Government to ensure that happens. The only problem with that is that | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
it takes a UK Government to respect the wishes of the people of Scotland | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
who wants to remain in Europe and to work with the government to deliver | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
that. There is no sign whatsoever that the UK Government is prepared | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
to do that. What would trigger a second Scottish referendum? For | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
viewers down so that is important to understand that there is a process | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
underway in Scotland. The Scottish Government has experts advising on | :38:51. | :38:57. | |
the different potential routes through which we could protect | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
Scotland's place in Europe. For example, is the way of Scotland is | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
staying in the single market while the rest of the UK leads? Are there | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
ways of protecting citizenship rights while the UK takes another | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
course? We need to understand the answers to those questions. But we | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
all know that there is a way in which Scotland can remain within the | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
European Union and that is as a member state. And that is why the | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
First Minister announced that the route to doing that, through a | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
referendum, given that we live in a democracy, is the best way to do | :39:32. | :39:33. | |
that and we will prepare the ground work in case there are no other ways | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
in which we can protect Scotland's place in Europe. Let me try again. | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
What would trigger a second Scottish referendum? I think of Scotland is | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
taken out of the European Union against the wishes of the people of | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
Scotland and the only way of protecting our place in Europe is to | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
be a sovereign state, that is what will trigger a referendum. A poll | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
this morning suggests that 55% of people in Scotland are in favour of | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
another referendum if we face the prospect of a hard Tory Brexit and | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
that is what we are heading towards. It is not only about the choices we | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
make, it is about the choices that the UK Government makes an Theresa | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
May should have heard by now if she has not yet that the Scottish | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
Government and the SNP is deadly serious when we say that we expect | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
the borders of Scotland is to be respected and the UK Government to | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
take their wishes seriously. But that rather depends on the Prime | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
Minister and the Tory Party respecting Scotland. We were told | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
that Scotland was an equal partner in the UK. There has not been a | :40:38. | :40:46. | |
single iota... I am hoping to help... I am trying to get some | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
clarity, I am trying to get through the rhetoric and get some clarity. | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
On the government's current timetable we are scheduled to leave | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
the EU at the beginning of 2019. If that timetable is adhered to, when | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
will there be a second Scottish referendum? Well, I am surprised you | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
think you are having answers from the UK Government on anything to do | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
with Brexit because we sat in Parliament... Why don't you answer | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
my question? I don't think we know for certain when the UK is planning | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
to leave the EU. I don't think we know the conditions of the exit. I | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
don't think we know whether they want to remain within the single | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
market and I don't think we know whether they are prepared... Let me | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
try to help you to answer the question. If it is clear that we | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
will not be a member of the single market, we will have access to it | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
but we will not be a member of the way we are now, would that trigger a | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
second referendum? I don't think there is any ambiguity about this | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
whatsoever. Let me say this. I do not want Scotland to leave the | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
European Union. Four. Not now and not in the future. Can you answer my | :42:01. | :42:08. | |
question? The answer to the question is I do not want us to leave the EU | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
so if it becomes clear that there is a timetable that takes us out on | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
hard Brexit terms, detrimental to our economy, then I will support a | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
Scottish independence of random and if that needs to take place within | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
the years before 2019, I am in favour. And what if we go out on the | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
soft Brexit terms? Would that mean you would not trigger the | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
referendum? You are making the point yourself, whatever that means. You | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
used the words hard Brexit, what does that mean to you? It means | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
taking us out of the single market, it means having tariffs. So Scottish | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
business, the Scotch whiskey industry, for example, they sing | :42:48. | :42:49. | |
tariffs to sell to other European countries. You have made the point | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
that I am trying to undermine the Li Na underline. We have is that the | :42:55. | :43:01. | |
point I am trying to underline. What we have started is a process that is | :43:02. | :43:09. | |
seeking to... If we have another referendum that will determine the | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
identity of an independent Scotland within the European Union within a | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
number of years, I am in favour of that. Scotland runs the largest | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
fiscal deficit in the Western world. The price of oil has collapsed. The | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
oil industry is on its knees and your financial sector is in poor | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
shape. You have very slow growth and you could not tell us what the | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
currency will be in an independent Scotland. Other than that, what is | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
the economic case for independence today? This week we have learned | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
that the UK is facing losing ?66 billion in revenue and the pound is | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
heading through the floor. That was a Project Fear report and you know | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
that. It is dated to April. What is the case for Scotland? The UK | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
economy is heading in a direction where we cannot even buy certain | :43:56. | :43:57. | |
products on high streets supermarkets. We did not choose the | :43:58. | :44:04. | |
circumstances in which we have found ourselves. We voted to remain within | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
the European Union. The timetable that is being forced by the UK | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
Government is one that is forcing people in Scotland to a choice. Have | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
we chosen all of the circumstances? No. We'll all be economic | :44:18. | :44:24. | |
circumstances be ideal? No. Are they for the UK? No. These are tough | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
circumstances for everyone who was involved but the difference is that | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
we have a democratic mandate in this country to remain within the | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
European Union and as Democrats, it behoves us to support the wishes of | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
this country. Wearing your hat as Deputy, I asked you the economic | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
case but we will probably come back to that and I will try to get an | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
answer. But with your new role as deputy leader this time last year | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
the SNP was dining out on how it was going to be the real opposition in | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
the Westminster Parliament. Now a year later, we see that you have | :44:57. | :45:03. | |
wasted ?230,000 on frivolous early day motions, celebrating a | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
constituent getting into the final 13 of missed Scotland. The 50th | :45:10. | :45:12. | |
anniversary of Star Trek. And the unavailing of a Christmas tree will | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
stop that is your members putting these things down. It costs money. | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
How is that being the real opposition? | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
A political party asks questions turns up at committees, takes part | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
in debates and somehow it is condemned. I know other | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
commentators, perhaps less partisan has said the SNP is the effective | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
Opposition at Westminster and week in and week out I hold Theresa May | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
and previously David Cameron to account, asking the difficult | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
questions that the Labour Party riddled by internal division is | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
unable to do. Most neutral observers believe the SNP is doing a good job | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
at Westminster and my plan is to continue doing this, so long as | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
Scotland is part of the UK. At least as part of one of your early day | :46:03. | :46:09. | |
motions, I did know it was the 50th anniversary of Star Trek. Thank you | :46:10. | :46:10. | |
for joining us. Well, the answer to that | :46:11. | :46:12. | |
will depend on a lot of things, but according to the think-tank run | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
by our Guest of the Day Philippa Stroud it could have a lot to do | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
with where you live. And they've come up with their own | :46:21. | :46:23. | |
league table to underline what they say is a failure to spread | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
opportunity across the country. The UK Prosperity Index | :46:27. | :46:28. | |
maps how well 389 local It's not just about wealth - | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
but also economic opportunity, the business environment, | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
health and education, safety and security - | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
what they call "social capital", Waverley in Surrey | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
comes top of the list, followed by Mole Valley, | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
also in Surrey, and Winchester. The least prosperous region | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
in the UK is said to be Hull, followed by Blackpool and | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
Middlesborough. The index claims to show | :46:57. | :46:59. | |
that the wealth in many cities is not translating into better lives | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
for citizens, while rural areas are more prosperous | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
despite being poorer. It also reveals that areas that | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
voted to leave the EU were far more Well, to discuss this we're joined | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
by two MPs representing areas near the top and bottom | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
of the index. Paul Beresford is the MP | :47:22. | :47:23. | |
for Mole Valley in Surrey, and Lilian Greenwood is the MP | :47:24. | :47:25. | |
for Nottingham South. Welcome, both of you. So Surrey | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
scored twice, two places in Surrey. What is so great about the area? It | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
is run by Conservativep councils, as simple as that. All of the Surrey | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
constituencies or councils in the top 100, but if you really want it | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
tell you move a little further away and move into London, you see | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
Wandsworth was ranked 125, control controlled, its neighbour, Lambeth, | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
Labour-controlled has been for donkeys years, poor, down on 279. | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
And those are like-for-like on paper but not in reality. So you are not | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
to do as an MP, your surge ploys be empty. No-one will have any issue or | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
problems, to come to see you That I wish were so but as I discussed with | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
others, the more you solve the problems, the more others bring up | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
minor problems but it has been successful. Were you surprised. Paul | :48:18. | :48:24. | |
makes a partisan point about Conservative councils means | :48:25. | :48:26. | |
prosperous areas. In your case, were you are surprised you were so down | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
the list? In a sense I wasn't. The boundaries are incredibly tightly | :48:33. | :48:41. | |
drawn, you see Nottingham come 381, RushClough comes 394th. We know | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
people come and work in noting ha. There are parts of that that are | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
closer to Nottingham city centre than parts of my constituency which | :48:51. | :48:52. | |
skews the results but there is no doubt there are huge challenges to | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
be faced in the cities, if I had a response to Paul's rather partisan | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
point is that whereas a lot of the authorities in the top 20 have seen | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
cutses of around 10% in their spending, places like Nottingham and | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
other deprived cities over the past five years have seen cuts in their | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
spending power of 30% or more. So if the Government were serious about | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
tackling the impacts of deprivation, they shouldn't be actually making | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
them worse by cutting local authorities like ours. So, Philippa | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
Stroud is it all about Government spending, fetedering the nests of | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
Conservative councils and not giving money where it needed? Actually the | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
report says almost the opposite to that. This is definitely a report | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
defining prosperity as economic stepping and taking hold of the | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
economic opportunities and driving those forward but also about social | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
capital, about whether or not you feel like you have a family member | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
who you could call on in times of trouble or whether or not you had | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
friends in the community or whether or not there was volunteering going | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
on in your community. It was about the strength of your community as | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
well as the economic strength. And we've definitely seen that in rurl | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
areas, even if they are less economically prosperous, actually | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
the social cohesion and the way they work together, supporting one | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
another, is much stronger than in some of our cities. Right. I mean | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
they are very different places, clearly, cities and rural areas, we | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
talking about villages compared to big city centres, but can't thereby | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
cohesion in city centres or some other major metropolises? | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
Absolutely. I mean this is a static snapshot, where I look at where | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
Nottingham is going, there is lots of improvement. For example we are | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
seeing high employment levels, going faster than other core cities. We | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
have the lowest level of young people not in employment, education | :50:49. | :50:50. | |
and training. There are challenges, I wouldn't deny that for a moment | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
but it is ridiculous to suggest that funding levels don't matter, because | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
libraries are a really important part of creating a social capital, | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
hubs for local areas. I absolutely disagree. And the ability to invest | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
in things that matter and actually in Nottingham there is investment | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
going on. For For 20 to 25 years, since Wandsworth has been | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
Conservative-controlled on a like-for-like basis it has received | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
the lowest Government grant, regardless of the nature of the | :51:22. | :51:23. | |
Government. Yet it has gone forward and up. If you go into Wandsworth | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
now they have been building or planning more properties over the | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
next five years than the rest of London put together. You have a lot | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
of expertise in Wandsworth. Absolutely because I used to be the | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
council... I wondered if there was any knowledge But I drive through it | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
every day. I can see the difference. But Paul, it is no surprise, is t | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
when you actually look at the list of the most prosperous authorities, | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
they are in the south-east, broadly, excludeing London but they are in | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
the south-east. Why is there still such a great divide between those | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
areas and some of the #20u7b towns and cities, one of which Lilian | :52:00. | :52:02. | |
represents - and the towns and cities. It depends on the local | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
authority. One surprise I got was Manchester. I know a lot about | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
Manchester. When I was a minister I was working with Manchester. To us | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
Labour-controlled it is much lower down the scale than I thought it | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
ought to be. It is go-ahead. I know it is Labour-controlled but it is | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
go-ahead and moving forward and I think when we see Manchester in two, | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
three, four years you will see it is a will the further up the scale. Do | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
you not think Philippa, when you look at places like Hull and | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
mid-brels yu, these are places in the UK that have suffered decades of | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
structural problems because of the industries that were dominant there. | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
-- Middlesbrough. They still haven't caught up. That must be Government | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
that have not done enough to help? What was really interesting, we | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
showcased Hull in the report. And you can see the devastation of the | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
fishing industry and the impact that that has had. Inane you see the next | :52:52. | :52:58. | |
- and you see the next generation coming through, uncertain about | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
where they are going to go in terms of employment and skills but what is | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
interesting is that the schools in Hull now are getting hold of that | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
and are really beginning to talk about self-employment, | :53:10. | :53:11. | |
entrepreneurialism. These are the ways of lifting the heads of these | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
young people and saying - there are opportunities out there for you. So | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
it wouldn't surprise me if, in a few years' time, we see Hull beginning | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
to move up, but it is about empowering these individuals. Well | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
come back next time and let's see if they have gone in reverse, Paul? ? | :53:27. | :53:36. | |
Mole Valley and Nottingham? Is the area rich P because it is Tory or is | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
it Tory because it is rich? That's today's existential question. Well, | :53:42. | :53:42. | |
we'll leave that. Now, David Cameron this week | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
revealed his first new job since he stepped down | :53:46. | :53:47. | |
as Prime Minister and as an MP. It wasn't signing up | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
for a lucrative lecture tour or a lucrative directorship - | :53:51. | :53:52. | |
although of course those to expand the National Citizens | :53:53. | :53:54. | |
Service, a kind of non-military But he needs to act fast | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
to save his reputation if one survey It says that university academics | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
specialising in politics believe he is among Britain's | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
worst post-war PMs. I bet they wouldn't say that | :54:12. | :54:13. | |
to his face. Let's look at the winners and loser | :54:14. | :54:25. | |
in this particular Prime Minister hall of fame or shame and failure. | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
survey, Labour's Clement Attlee, whose government created the NHS, | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
He was followed by Margaret Thatcher, | :54:36. | :54:37. | |
who - as the PM who declared victory over Argentina in the Falklands - | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
scored highly for "shaping Britain's role in the world". | :54:42. | :54:43. | |
Coming after the so-called "Iron Lady" was Tony Blair, | :54:44. | :54:45. | |
who led Labour to a historic three terms in office - | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
and, more controversially - took the UK to war in | :54:49. | :54:50. | |
Sir Anthony Eden, whose term in office was overshadowed | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
by the Suez crisis, was ranked last. | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
Just above him was Sir Alec Douglas-Home, who was seen as out of | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
touch and whose tenure as PM lasted only a year. | :55:06. | :55:07. | |
He was ridiculed for saying that he used matchsticks to help him | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
with 9 in 10 of those polled pointing to this year's EU | :55:11. | :55:20. | |
One academic said it was the greatest defeat of any PM | :55:21. | :55:28. | |
"since Lord North lost America". | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
The academics were asked to rank his two terms separately. | :55:32. | :55:33. | |
When in Coalition with the Lib Dems, his score put him in | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
But after taking into account his second term - | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
as leader of the Conservative majority government - | :55:41. | :55:42. | |
his overall score dropped. | :55:43. | :55:44. | |
Joining us now is Kevin Theakston, Professor of British Politics | :55:45. | :55:55. | |
at Leeds University, who carried out the survey. | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
He is in our Leeds' studio. Welcome. You really think David Cameron | :56:00. | :56:07. | |
deserves to be down there with Alec Douglas Hume who was only leader for | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
about a year and Anthony Eden who took us into the disastrous Suez | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
expedition? Well, David Cameron did look a pretty successful Prime | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
Minister in 20 #15, as we have just seen and, you know - the 2015, | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
running the Coalition Government success flan tackling the economy. | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
That put him pretty much in the middle of our league table but I | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
think the academics we polled see Brexit as a major disaster, a | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
crisis, a self-inflicted one and that's put him down there at the | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
bottom of our poll. To what extent is it that the academics that you | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
polled are overwhelmingly in favour of Remain and just resent that Mr | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
Cameron made it possible for us to leave? Well, I think it is true that | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
a lot of university opinion is Remain. And there are understandable | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
reasons for that. But I think the poll does say more about the Prime | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
Ministers than about the professors, as it were. And it makes us think | :57:08. | :57:14. | |
about what is behind successful leadership, and what the less | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
successful Prime Ministers have in common, like losing elections, or | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
facing major foreign policy disasters, or being drummed rather | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
human I will latingly out of office. Well speaking of major foreign | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
policy disasters, where is Tony Blair at number 3? It is an | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
interesting score. The legacy of Iraq will loom large in the | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
historical record. Still is. But Tony Blair did win three general | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
elections in a rewith big majorities. He left a big record of | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
domestic achievement. He changed the country in pretty fundamental ways | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
and all of those things do help cement his reputation as a high | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
achieving Prime Minister, overall. And why is Clem Attlee rated above | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
Margaret Thatcher? Although you have Mrs Thatcher at 2 and Mr Attlee at | :58:06. | :58:11. | |
1? Yes, I think those two Prime Ministers, Attlee and Thatcher, they | :58:12. | :58:13. | |
are the great weather-makers of post-war Britain. They have major | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
domestic legacies and they changed the political landscape. They | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
affected politics for decades after them and all their successors had to | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
respond to their agendas and their achievements. So they are pretty | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
neck-and-neck but it looks like Attlee was just slightly ahead of | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
thatch. A professor, a fascinating survey. Thank you for being with us | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
today. Very briefly, would you place Mr Cameron down with Alex Douglas | :58:42. | :58:47. | |
Hume and Anthony Eden I suspect he was placed there because he was most | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
recent. I think Gordon Brown was the last one placed there. He was more | :58:52. | :58:52. | |
in the middle. There's just time before we go | :58:53. | :58:54. | |
to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was why was the SNP's | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
Angus MacNeill ticked off for "unstatesmanlike behaviour" | :58:58. | :59:00. | |
by the speaker John Bercow I don't think she knows. | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
I'm sure Andrew can help? Or maybe not. Did he a, have his shirt | :59:06. | :59:11. | |
untucked, was he picking his nose, chewing gum or, playing games on his | :59:12. | :59:13. | |
mobile? Picking hi nose. Wrong. Chewing gum. | :59:14. | :59:16. | |
The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now. | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
I'll be on This Week with Katie Hopkins, Miranda Green, | :59:22. | :59:23. | |
Katie Melua, Michael Portillo and Michael Dugher | :59:24. | :59:26. |