27/10/2016 Daily Politics


27/10/2016

Andrew Neil is joined by Labour peer Margaret Prosser for the latest news from Westminster, including an interview with former Cabinet minister Michael Gove.


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Transcript


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Welcome to the Daily Politics. still driver England and Wales.

:01:01.:01:00.

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has accused the Government of planning

:01:01.:01:20.

And we head to Richmond to ask people there whether Heathrow

:01:21.:01:23.

expansion or Brexit will be more important to them when casting

:01:24.:01:26.

The reason I chose Brexit is, it's going to have an immediate effect on

:01:27.:01:37.

me, whereas Heathrow I don't think will ever happen.

:01:38.:01:45.

All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

:01:46.:01:48.

of the programme today is the Labour peer Baroness Prosser.

:01:49.:01:50.

Margaret is a former Deputy General Secretary at the Transport

:01:51.:01:53.

and General Workers Union and she now sits on the Joint

:01:54.:01:57.

Committee on Human Rights Committee in Parliament.

:01:58.:01:59.

Now, this morning, we've heard that Nissan has confirmed it will build

:02:00.:02:06.

both the new Qashqai and the X-Trail SUV at its Sunderland plant

:02:07.:02:14.

in the first major development for the car industry

:02:15.:02:16.

The Japanese company's commitment to Britain's biggest car plant had

:02:17.:02:24.

been in doubt following the referendum.

:02:25.:02:31.

And with GDP figures out today which show the British economy

:02:32.:02:34.

bucking expectations of substantial slowdown, it looks as if Brexiteers

:02:35.:02:38.

The Office for National Statistics showed that between July

:02:39.:02:45.

and September, the economy grew by 0.5%.

:02:46.:02:50.

The Chancellor, Philip Hammond, said he was pleased by the figures.

:02:51.:02:56.

The economy has proved to be very resilient.

:02:57.:02:58.

We went into the referendum, I think the figures now

:02:59.:03:00.

show, stronger than we thought at the time.

:03:01.:03:06.

And the economy has held up very well since.

:03:07.:03:08.

But we are going to have a period of uncertainty ahead,

:03:09.:03:12.

as business waits to see the outcome of the European Union negotiations.

:03:13.:03:16.

And we have to make sure that we are prepared and ready

:03:17.:03:19.

to support the economy during that period, to make sure that we get

:03:20.:03:23.

a successful outcome to the negotiations and successfully

:03:24.:03:26.

support the economy through that period.

:03:27.:03:31.

Before the European referendum, predictions were being made

:03:32.:03:34.

of an immediate and significant impact on the UK economy

:03:35.:03:37.

David Cameron said it would put a bomb under the UK economy.

:03:38.:03:43.

George Osborne warned of a DIY recession.

:03:44.:03:47.

But so far, these predictions have not come to pass.

:03:48.:03:51.

So, how has the economy been faring since the 23rd of June?

:03:52.:03:57.

The star bakers in the economic kitchen have been producing

:03:58.:04:00.

As we've been hearing, GDP grew by 0.5% between July

:04:01.:04:05.

That's better than expected - the Bank of England had predicted

:04:06.:04:10.

The employment rate is currently 74.5% -

:04:11.:04:23.

that's the joint highest it's been since records began in the '70s.

:04:24.:04:28.

And consumer confidence has also been looking tasty -

:04:29.:04:31.

in September, the retail sales figure was up over 4%

:04:32.:04:34.

But it hasn't all been sugar-coated - there have been some

:04:35.:04:41.

The pound has been falling pretty steadily against the dollar.

:04:42.:04:47.

It reached a 31-year low earlier this month, although it has

:04:48.:04:50.

Inflation jumped to 1% in September and that's bitter

:04:51.:04:57.

The CPI index is the highest it's been for nearly two years.

:04:58.:05:05.

And at the weekend, the British Bankers' Association

:05:06.:05:09.

warned that there could be an exodus from the City early next year.

:05:10.:05:19.

According to the lobbying group, banks are poised to hit

:05:20.:05:22.

Joining me now are Baroness Patience Wheatcroft and Liam Halligan.

:05:23.:05:33.

Welcome to you both. Most of these short-term predictions haven't come

:05:34.:05:42.

true, have they? Things have not got bad yet but they will. But we were

:05:43.:05:48.

told that they would be bad by now, that it was going to be an immediate

:05:49.:05:53.

effect, a vote to leave said the Treasury "Would cause an immediate

:05:54.:05:57.

and profound economic shock". The Treasury was slightly exaggerating.

:05:58.:06:04.

Any decision that was taken ahead of Brexit would take some time to

:06:05.:06:10.

impact. It wasn't just the Treasury, it was David Cameron, George

:06:11.:06:13.

Osborne, the Bank of England, the IMF, the OECD and the World Bank.

:06:14.:06:18.

They all said the impact would be immediate and they were wrong. They

:06:19.:06:22.

were wrong, the impact hasn't been immediate, but it is already

:06:23.:06:29.

impacting on banks that are having their finger poised on the trigger.

:06:30.:06:33.

We don't know that to be true, could you name a bank that has its finger

:06:34.:06:38.

poised on the trigger? I certainly could. HSBC is thinking about what

:06:39.:06:43.

to do. HSBC has ruled out leaving, it spent 18 months relocating its

:06:44.:06:49.

headquarters to Hong Kong and decided it would stay here. They are

:06:50.:06:53.

not going to move everybody out but they will move people, and they are

:06:54.:06:56.

going to move people. They going to move people? I did think so. This is

:06:57.:07:03.

a lot of bluster and hot air. Nissan said in 2002 if we didn't join the

:07:04.:07:07.

euro they would leave the UK, they said if we voted for Brexit they

:07:08.:07:11.

would leave the UK. They've just confirmed they are going to increase

:07:12.:07:18.

their investment. It's part of a CEO's drop to occasionally hold a

:07:19.:07:23.

gun to the government's head. But we don't know what Nissan has been

:07:24.:07:27.

promised... I agree, I think the government should have called their

:07:28.:07:32.

bluff. I think they took advantage of an inexperienced government. We

:07:33.:07:34.

don't know what the government has done yet but is probably no more

:07:35.:07:37.

than the French government would have done. Nevertheless it's a deal

:07:38.:07:41.

that has obviously been done behind closed doors. What does it matter if

:07:42.:07:46.

it results in the production of cars in Sunderland, for which there was a

:07:47.:07:50.

question over it, is going to go from 475,000 a year to 600,000 a

:07:51.:07:57.

year. Over 7000 jobs secured. It will become a super plant in

:07:58.:08:02.

Sunderland. Not one but two new cars will be produced. It depends how

:08:03.:08:07.

much you are paying for it, and we don't know how much we are paying

:08:08.:08:11.

for it. It would have to be a lot for it not to be worth it. It

:08:12.:08:16.

probably would be a lot and it would be a lot that would have to be paid

:08:17.:08:20.

to other car manufacturers. What about other jobs in manufacturing? I

:08:21.:08:26.

share your reticence on this. I think governments have to face down

:08:27.:08:32.

big powerful manufacturers and other companies and the financial services

:08:33.:08:36.

industry too. We've got to show confidence. There is a case to

:08:37.:08:39.

invest in the UK on its own merits. We've just been voted one of the

:08:40.:08:43.

best places in the world to do business. It's not all good news.

:08:44.:08:48.

Even in the short term the 0.5% third-quarter figure is much

:08:49.:08:51.

stronger than project fear forecasted. But, the only sector to

:08:52.:09:04.

grow was services. Every other sector, construction, manufacturing,

:09:05.:09:09.

industrial production, all down. I agree. I've written two years my

:09:10.:09:13.

concerns about the imbalances in the UK economy. I think, yes, we have a

:09:14.:09:18.

hard GDP number now for a post-Brexit vote quarter but it's a

:09:19.:09:22.

preliminary number. I'm not crowing about this number as a Brexiteer.

:09:23.:09:26.

There's still a lot of imbalances, I'm concerned about the amount of Q

:09:27.:09:33.

E we are still talking about, the fact we've just cut interest rates.

:09:34.:09:37.

I'm not completely happy but it's clear that the Treasury and other

:09:38.:09:43.

fear mongers need to take a bow. The issue with, if they got the forecast

:09:44.:09:47.

of the last three months wrong, if they couldn't even tell us what was

:09:48.:09:52.

going to happen in July, August and September, why would you trust them

:09:53.:09:56.

to tell us what's happening in 3-5 years' time? I didn't think you

:09:57.:10:00.

should trust economists to tell you what's going to happen at any stage.

:10:01.:10:04.

It was used during the referendum campaign. I would rather wait and

:10:05.:10:10.

see what happens. Brexit was the vote taken in June. Any decisions

:10:11.:10:15.

taken after that will not have taken effect yet. These are long-term

:10:16.:10:19.

decisions. Wait until next year when you see inflation kicking in at 6-7%

:10:20.:10:28.

in food prices, maybe even more. The British consumer will then have to

:10:29.:10:32.

lock down. We don't know by how much, but it's there to wish you as

:10:33.:10:38.

Patience Wheatcroft says, inflation will rise. There are two dangers

:10:39.:10:47.

here. One is there's a danger that prices will rise faster than wages.

:10:48.:10:52.

That will cripple consumers spending which is almost 70% of the economy.

:10:53.:10:58.

The second is because of the inevitable uncertainty, both

:10:59.:11:00.

domestic business investment and foreign direct investment are likely

:11:01.:11:06.

to go on pause. Both of these could slow the economy next year. I

:11:07.:11:11.

completely agree. I said before the referendum and have said since,

:11:12.:11:14.

clearly however Brexit is done there's going to be an impact on the

:11:15.:11:18.

long-term decisions of businessmen and women who make real moves with

:11:19.:11:22.

money rather than sitting in TV studios aren't talking about it.

:11:23.:11:27.

That's why I don't want a long, drawn-out row with the rest of the

:11:28.:11:31.

European Union that will make us look very business unfriendly.

:11:32.:11:35.

That's why I want a clean Brexit. That will minimise the inevitable

:11:36.:11:38.

business uncertainty. I'm afraid the truth is we don't know what we are

:11:39.:11:44.

doing the country. We've got three Brexiteers who are complaining that

:11:45.:11:46.

people in Europe and being very nice to them. Who's complaining? Liam

:11:47.:11:55.

Fox. Had he said that. I paraphrase. He was upset by the reception he was

:11:56.:11:59.

getting and he thought we should get a more positive reception. I thought

:12:00.:12:03.

he had been mainly going to Canada, Australia... I think we should kick

:12:04.:12:17.

this Eurocrats into touch. The news for Sunderland is fantastic this

:12:18.:12:21.

morning, isn't it? It is very good. I hope also that the government will

:12:22.:12:26.

recognise that all the eggs in the basket of Nissan went to be healthy

:12:27.:12:31.

for the area. There needs to be infrastructure and jobs down the

:12:32.:12:35.

line based in that area, so that everybody benefits. It looks like

:12:36.:12:41.

the plant itself is going to expand and that will have both direct and

:12:42.:12:44.

indirect impact in the north-east. It will. It has among the highest

:12:45.:12:51.

productivity of any car plant in the world. People in the north-east,

:12:52.:12:55.

despite the fact many of them have had jobs at Nissan for a long time,

:12:56.:13:00.

voted in big numbers to come out of Europe. They must have felt

:13:01.:13:05.

dissatisfied with how the economy was treating them. So I do think

:13:06.:13:09.

account has got to be taken of all of that. What's the knock-on effect

:13:10.:13:13.

for people in the north-east and many of them it's going to be good,

:13:14.:13:18.

but don't leave out those on the periphery. I surprised a lot of the

:13:19.:13:25.

short-term forecasts have turned out to be far more gloomy than the

:13:26.:13:30.

reality? No, I'm not surprised. I thought it would be gloomy. It's

:13:31.:13:35.

been far less gloomy. The forecasts were more gloomy than the reality.

:13:36.:13:41.

The Treasury was forecasting with enter recession. The reality for

:13:42.:13:45.

some people is pretty gloomy, isn't it? What goes on at a macro level is

:13:46.:13:50.

one thing. What happens when you go out and you change your pound notes

:13:51.:13:54.

into euros and you find you don't get as many year rose as you would

:13:55.:14:00.

have liked. You were talking a moment ago about immediate effects.

:14:01.:14:05.

Between June and September, three months, that's pretty quick in the

:14:06.:14:08.

great scheme of things. People going on holiday, lots of people on what

:14:09.:14:15.

you might call ordinary wages go to European countries on holiday

:14:16.:14:17.

because traditionally that has been a good bargain. They find that

:14:18.:14:22.

actually was much more expensive than they thought. What's more

:14:23.:14:26.

important to the future of the country, the ability for people to

:14:27.:14:31.

go abroad on holiday cheaply or the ability of Nissan and Jaguar and

:14:32.:14:36.

Rolls-Royce and British Aerospace to sell their goods abroad more

:14:37.:14:40.

competitively? Why does that have to be an either or? Because the

:14:41.:14:44.

currency makes it an either or. The country would go round in a much

:14:45.:14:49.

more happy and beneficial way if more people had more money in their

:14:50.:14:54.

pockets to put into the economy to spend so it comes back. That's

:14:55.:14:59.

what's been going wrong... Which may be a difficulty next year if

:15:00.:15:00.

installation starts rising. There are reports you are part of a

:15:01.:15:11.

group of peers plotting to undo the referendum result. What is the

:15:12.:15:15.

truth? There was certainly no plot. I think there are a number of

:15:16.:15:19.

people, both in and out of the House of Lords, who very much regret the

:15:20.:15:23.

decision that was taken... But what are you trying to do? We feel there

:15:24.:15:28.

should be a vote in parliament. This is all about sovereignty of

:15:29.:15:33.

Parliament, sovereignty of the country. The sovereignty of

:15:34.:15:35.

Parliament demands that this should not be a decision pressing the

:15:36.:15:40.

button on Article 50 just for the Prime Minister. It is too much for

:15:41.:15:44.

any individual to take. But the country voted on June 23, over 17

:15:45.:15:51.

million people, to do just this. What gives you, as an unelected

:15:52.:15:56.

peer, any democratic legitimacy in this? The country voted not by an

:15:57.:16:00.

overwhelming majority, but nevertheless, the country voted in

:16:01.:16:03.

favour of Brexit not knowing what Brexit means and we are still told

:16:04.:16:06.

that Brexit means Brexit. We don't know what it means. But who elected

:16:07.:16:13.

you? I'm not elected. So what gives you any democratic legitimacy on

:16:14.:16:17.

this? I don't have a right to overturn the will of the people at

:16:18.:16:21.

all. But you would vote against triggering article 50. Until we are

:16:22.:16:27.

clear on what lies ahead. So you would interfere with the will of the

:16:28.:16:30.

people. As an unelected peer, you would vote against the wishes of

:16:31.:16:35.

17.4 million people on June 23. It might be in the House of Lords that

:16:36.:16:40.

we vote against what you call the will of the people, it may well be.

:16:41.:16:48.

The House of Lords has a duty to say to the Commons, just think about

:16:49.:16:51.

this, make sure before you do it. It is not a right to overturn but it is

:16:52.:16:56.

a duty. But what is the point of voting against it if you don't

:16:57.:17:00.

overturn it? To let more detail come through so that we know what it is

:17:01.:17:06.

we are voting for. If we reverse this, I'm afraid a lot of the

:17:07.:17:09.

public's faith in mainstream politics will be severely dented in

:17:10.:17:13.

this country. I think a lot of people are feeling deeply

:17:14.:17:16.

uncomfortable by the rising tide of nationalism. But the majority voted.

:17:17.:17:23.

It was a clear majority. The Government were handing out leaflets

:17:24.:17:28.

to people's home is saying, the Government will input your decision.

:17:29.:17:32.

I'd only the kid is possible to vote against the will of the people. That

:17:33.:17:37.

would cause mayhem. Thank you both for being with us.

:17:38.:17:39.

The question for today is, who did the Queen mistake Vladimir Putin

:17:40.:17:43.

You had to be named Andrew before you were mistaken, clearly!

:17:44.:18:04.

At the end of the show, Margaret will give us

:18:05.:18:06.

I have very bad form on quizzes on this answer! Fortunately, I know the

:18:07.:18:16.

answer. You will have to whisper it to me!

:18:17.:18:18.

So, the announcement about Nissan has rather overshadowed

:18:19.:18:20.

the speech this morning which the Shadow Chancellor

:18:21.:18:22.

In it, he warned the Government against carrying out a "bankers'

:18:23.:18:28.

Brexit" at the expense of the rest of the overall economy,

:18:29.:18:31.

urging it not to ignore the needs of small businesses.

:18:32.:18:33.

Already, Tory Cabinet members are looking to cook up special

:18:34.:18:35.

deals for their friends in the City of London.

:18:36.:18:38.

They want a bankers' Brexit in the interests of the elite

:18:39.:18:41.

They'll be willing to cut a deal for finance but ignore

:18:42.:18:45.

our small businesses and many of our manufacturers.

:18:46.:18:49.

Let me be clear - those who have voted Conservative in 2015 are not

:18:50.:18:53.

Like me, you have friends who voted Conservative.

:18:54.:18:58.

They don't want a bankers' Brexit any more than I do.

:18:59.:19:03.

The simple truth is that the Tory establishment cannot be trusted

:19:04.:19:05.

And we're joined now by the Shadow City Minister Jonathan Reynolds,

:19:06.:19:14.

who is also a member of Labour's Brexit team.

:19:15.:19:24.

jobs for the price of one! Welcome to the programme. What is the

:19:25.:19:32.

evidence that the Government wants to, quote, cut a deal for finance

:19:33.:19:36.

and ignore small businesses and manufacturers? John is referring to

:19:37.:19:41.

the story in the Financial Times last week about the possibility of a

:19:42.:19:48.

specific deal for financial services cut before the rest of the deal is

:19:49.:19:52.

ready. What John said today was that when we get this Brexit deal in

:19:53.:19:55.

place, which only has to cover all of the economy, it can't be done

:19:56.:20:02.

piece by piece. This was based on unsourced story in the Financial

:20:03.:20:05.

Times, but as I can find no government minister on record saying

:20:06.:20:09.

that that's what they want to do. John is putting a the league

:20:10.:20:12.

position, which is that it must cover all of the economy. Given that

:20:13.:20:17.

we can't find anybody saying that we need to cut a deal just for finance,

:20:18.:20:23.

what is the evidence that the Government doesn't want to take into

:20:24.:20:28.

account manufacturers, given the news from Nissan this morning? We

:20:29.:20:31.

don't know what the Government wants to take into account because it

:20:32.:20:34.

won't tell us, it won't tell us the negotiating strategy or bring that

:20:35.:20:38.

to Parliament. In relation to Nissan, I grew up close to that

:20:39.:20:41.

factory and it is fantastic news that those models will be made there

:20:42.:20:45.

but you can't do a deal like this factory by factory, shop floor to

:20:46.:20:49.

shop floor. It is not factory by factory, it is

:20:50.:20:53.

with one of the biggest companies in the world. One of the other biggest

:20:54.:20:57.

car companies is jaguar and Tata. Are you saying we couldn't do a deal

:20:58.:21:05.

with them? Since the Shadow Chancellor said, the Government is

:21:06.:21:09.

ignoring manufacturers, the evidence from Nissan today and other talks

:21:10.:21:13.

would suggest there is no evidence for that. I'd say the evidence is

:21:14.:21:17.

that what we have is chaos. We don't know the position from the

:21:18.:21:20.

Government. You can't do it company by company. If there was chaos, why

:21:21.:21:28.

would Nissan, which could go anywhere in the world, make this

:21:29.:21:31.

massive investment in a chaotic country? It can make the investment

:21:32.:21:37.

because it has had support and assurances. So that's not chaos. But

:21:38.:21:42.

you can't do that company by company. You've said that. If there

:21:43.:21:49.

was chaos in this country, Nissan wouldn't come near it. The

:21:50.:21:53.

Government's approach is chaotic and I think it's been

:21:54.:21:56.

counter-productive. They should be frank with the British people as to

:21:57.:22:00.

our negotiating strategy. John McDonell said in July that he

:22:01.:22:04.

wouldn't support any exit deal that didn't involve our sporting for the

:22:05.:22:08.

financial sector, which allows them to operate throughout Europe. --

:22:09.:22:13.

past sporting. You wouldn't get that unless you offer some privileged

:22:14.:22:16.

position for finance as well, so what is the difference? You need to

:22:17.:22:22.

achieve some sort of agreement which has come parable access, something

:22:23.:22:28.

that isn't a's at it as useful as. You would need to cut a deal for

:22:29.:22:32.

finance. You are complaining that the Government is trying to cut a

:22:33.:22:35.

deal for finance, which we have no evidence for. It can't just before

:22:36.:22:39.

that one sector at that time. There is no evidence that the is doing

:22:40.:22:46.

that. We don't have that evidence. So it is an aunt Sally. It is a very

:22:47.:22:51.

clear problem. If the Government can tell Nissan its strategy, why can't

:22:52.:22:54.

it tell the House of Commons? Why would you not want to cut a deal for

:22:55.:22:58.

finance, given how important it is for the British economy? Because to

:22:59.:23:02.

get the best deal, you need to get all the interests of the economy

:23:03.:23:06.

lined up together. You've got to tie in German exporting goods to our

:23:07.:23:09.

need to get access to financial services and that's how we'll get

:23:10.:23:12.

the best deal. It is not just about which parts of our economy should

:23:13.:23:17.

get favourable treatment. I come again to, what evidence do you have

:23:18.:23:22.

but the government is not proceeding in that way, that its intention is

:23:23.:23:25.

to do it that way, with manufacturing, small businesses and

:23:26.:23:32.

finance? It won't tell us. Always had so far is, we want lists of

:23:33.:23:36.

foreign workers, damaging our reputation abroad. They won't

:23:37.:23:40.

confirm the status of EU nationals, what terms financial services will

:23:41.:23:44.

have. We have Tory MPs attacking the Bank of England. At the Labour

:23:45.:23:50.

conference, Mr Corbyn put your body on an election footing, where he

:23:51.:23:53.

said he thought there would be a snap election early next year so it

:23:54.:23:58.

is important we know what your party stands for, since we might be only a

:23:59.:24:02.

couple of months from an election. Is it Labour policy to remain a

:24:03.:24:06.

member of the single market? No, it is the policy to try to achieve the

:24:07.:24:10.

fullest possible access to the single market. We recognise and

:24:11.:24:15.

respect the vote and that has got to be on the basis which we proceed.

:24:16.:24:18.

I'm grateful for that because that is a clear answer but it is not what

:24:19.:24:21.

we've had from other Labour politicians, including your boss.

:24:22.:24:24.

John McDonell said last month that single market membership would be

:24:25.:24:29.

preferable, Emily Thornberry described it as very important and

:24:30.:24:32.

your shadow chief secretary described it as a red line. So are

:24:33.:24:38.

you this morning restating Labour policy more accurately and clearer,

:24:39.:24:43.

that membership is not the policy? I'm confident that what I've just

:24:44.:24:46.

told you is the view of the Shadow Cabinet. So it has changed from what

:24:47.:24:50.

John McDonell, Emily Thornberry and but she secretary said recently? The

:24:51.:24:54.

policy is to try to achieve the fullest possible access. Which is

:24:55.:25:02.

the government policy, to, isn't it? Perhaps they will tell us. What is

:25:03.:25:07.

your policy on immigration from Europe? There is no doubt that

:25:08.:25:11.

immigration played a significant part in the referendum, as anyone

:25:12.:25:15.

who was out canvassing will have experience. We are seeking the means

:25:16.:25:19.

to address those concerns, in terms of mitigating the impact on public

:25:20.:25:24.

services, addressing wages. We will prioritise the economy first. When

:25:25.:25:30.

we leave the European Union, at the moment we know because of the free

:25:31.:25:34.

movement that people can come here as they see fit and, of course, we

:25:35.:25:40.

can go there as well. That is part of the whole free movement of

:25:41.:25:44.

European Union. When we leave, though, we will need a policy to

:25:45.:25:48.

determine who can come here and who won't. What will that policy be? It

:25:49.:25:53.

will be about making sure our industries can still recruit skilled

:25:54.:25:57.

labour, which is huge part of it. There will clearly be to be some

:25:58.:26:00.

element of unskilled labour that still comes to this country but we

:26:01.:26:04.

won't scapegoat migrants, as we've seen in some parts of the right in

:26:05.:26:07.

this country. I wouldn't expect you to do that at all but will you put a

:26:08.:26:13.

limit on numbers? At the moment, the net migration from the EU is about

:26:14.:26:19.

180,000, I think, in the latest figures. Would you seek to reduce

:26:20.:26:23.

that, keep at the same, increase it? In terms of a wide economic plans,

:26:24.:26:26.

you would see a reduction of immigration just because of the

:26:27.:26:29.

types of investment on priorities we want to make but we're not going to

:26:30.:26:36.

put numbers on it. The numbers in terms of... One final question,

:26:37.:26:40.

because you are speaking generalities, in what way would your

:26:41.:26:45.

policy following our membership be different from now? In terms of

:26:46.:26:54.

immigration? Yes. It would be, I think, something which is better

:26:55.:26:57.

able to respond to the impact on public services and better able to

:26:58.:27:03.

prevent wage rates declining. The British public are not so worried

:27:04.:27:06.

about immigration in terms of what it means for the city, it is about

:27:07.:27:10.

the impact on the labour market and public services. Do you accept that

:27:11.:27:16.

given that it is the Government's position that we don't want to be

:27:17.:27:20.

under the European court's jurisdiction, that we want some

:27:21.:27:24.

control on movement, so not total free movement, and we want to be

:27:25.:27:28.

able to make our own free trade deals, that you add these three

:27:29.:27:31.

things together, we can still have access to the single market but we

:27:32.:27:34.

can't be a member of the single market. Do you accept that? I don't

:27:35.:27:40.

see the other 27 countries in Europe being happy about that. Why would

:27:41.:27:46.

they agree that we should have terms which are, some would say, much more

:27:47.:27:53.

favourable than the terms they have? Germany... If you look at not just

:27:54.:27:57.

the movement of labour around Europe but the refugee problem etc, other

:27:58.:28:07.

countries in Europe have taken far more people than us. Why would you,

:28:08.:28:12.

if you were a leader, Angela Merkel, for example, or anybody in Germany,

:28:13.:28:17.

say, OK, UK, you go over there and is in completely different and we're

:28:18.:28:23.

still happy... The game is now full access, as much access as you can

:28:24.:28:25.

get? Absolutely. Thank you. Now, while French officials say

:28:26.:28:30.

that they have successfully cleared the Calais camp known as the Jungle,

:28:31.:28:32.

charities claim that dozens of children spent

:28:33.:28:34.

the night sleeping rough. More than 5,500 people have

:28:35.:28:36.

been moved from the camp to reception centres across France

:28:37.:28:39.

since Monday, when the This includes about 1500

:28:40.:28:53.

unaccompanied minors being housed in a temporary camp on-site.

:28:54.:28:54.

We can talk now to BBC reporter Simon Jones, who's in Calais.

:28:55.:28:58.

Bring us up-to-date with what's happening this morning. Well,

:28:59.:29:05.

another day in Calais and another day of confusion. In the past few

:29:06.:29:09.

moments, we've just seen some smoke coming from the camp, which may

:29:10.:29:13.

suggest there could be more fires being started. Fire ripped through

:29:14.:29:17.

the camp yesterday, causing so many problems. People had to leave the

:29:18.:29:19.

camp and there were real concerns about some of the children involved

:29:20.:29:23.

in this, because the charities have been telling us that last night,

:29:24.:29:28.

towards the end of the evening, some 70 children had actually nowhere to

:29:29.:29:33.

sleep so they had to step in, finding places for them at a nearby

:29:34.:29:36.

hangar and also at a nearby school. The authorities here are saying, job

:29:37.:29:40.

done, effectively. The migrants have been moved from the camp. But if we

:29:41.:29:45.

walk over here, you can see, there are still a large number of people

:29:46.:29:49.

here who haven't left Calais and are still on the outskirts of the camp.

:29:50.:29:53.

The authorities have been telling us today that they believe some of

:29:54.:29:56.

these people have actually come from other parts of France because they

:29:57.:30:00.

had the operation was going so successfully, to try to get to

:30:01.:30:03.

centres elsewhere in France. There was also an issue with the children.

:30:04.:30:08.

We're told by the association is that the children have been asked to

:30:09.:30:11.

come here around now, possibly to get a bus to centres in other parts

:30:12.:30:16.

of France. But real concern particularly for the vulnerable

:30:17.:30:19.

children who yesterday were inside the camp, and they saw a lot of the

:30:20.:30:22.

place that they call their home going up in flames. We saw these

:30:23.:30:26.

quite horrendous pictures on television and we see some of

:30:27.:30:31.

clearly children behind you there as well. If you take into account the

:30:32.:30:36.

people behind you, the unaccompanied minors, others who are still there,

:30:37.:30:41.

how many people are still in the Jungle or the vicinity of it, and

:30:42.:30:46.

what is the French authorities' plan to do with them?

:30:47.:30:50.

There's probably a few hundred people still here in Calais, despite

:30:51.:30:57.

the fact more than 5000 have been moved. When we spoke to the prefect,

:30:58.:31:02.

one of the top officials in Calais earlier today, she told us that

:31:03.:31:07.

effectively everyone in the Jungle had been dealt with. And people who

:31:08.:31:11.

had come from other parts of France had to simply move somewhere else.

:31:12.:31:15.

Whether that's going to happen remains to be seen. With some of the

:31:16.:31:18.

children we are told they will be offered safety. It's a question of

:31:19.:31:23.

trying to determine who the children are. Despite the fact there has been

:31:24.:31:27.

chaos and confusion, I think politicians in France and the

:31:28.:31:32.

president will be quite satisfied that after day four of this

:31:33.:31:36.

operation, a large number of people have been moved elsewhere in France

:31:37.:31:40.

and we haven't seen a great outbreak of violence or disorder. Thank you.

:31:41.:31:46.

Simon reporting from the camp in Calais. His words and pictures

:31:47.:31:54.

showing it is clearly a problem that hasn't yet been resolved. President

:31:55.:31:57.

Hollande will regard it as a plus but he needs all the pluses he can

:31:58.:32:05.

get. His approval rating is currently at 4%. And British

:32:06.:32:06.

politicians think they're unpopular! The prominent Leave campaigner

:32:07.:32:10.

and former Cabinet minister Michael Gove has been elected to sit

:32:11.:32:12.

on a powerful new Brexit He will join a cross-party committee

:32:13.:32:15.

of MPs which will scrutinise the Government as it negotiates

:32:16.:32:23.

Britain's exit from The former Justice Secretary has

:32:24.:32:25.

also joined forces with Lord Glasman to come up with a proposal

:32:26.:32:29.

for a new immigration Welcome back. Lovely to see you,

:32:30.:32:39.

Andrew. Good to see you're out of hiding! Back from holiday. I've been

:32:40.:32:48.

in the Times. I see you are gainfully employed again! Mark the

:32:49.:32:57.

government's Brexit performance to date. How is it doing? I think I'd

:32:58.:33:06.

give it an capital a but not a capital a star. There's detail still

:33:07.:33:09.

to be fleshed out but it's important to recognise the Prime Minister has

:33:10.:33:16.

been clear about triggering Article 50. She has spelled-out we will take

:33:17.:33:22.

all existing EU law, get it into the law and decide which bits we want to

:33:23.:33:30.

keep, amend or ditch. I also think a great deal of work has gone on

:33:31.:33:34.

behind the scenes in the new Department for exiting European

:33:35.:33:38.

Union and the Department for International trade. One of the

:33:39.:33:40.

things I'm looking forward to doing is probing a bit deeper. When you

:33:41.:33:46.

launched the campaign to become Tory leader you said "I will end free

:33:47.:33:51.

movement, introduce a points type system for immigration". The

:33:52.:33:57.

government has ruled out a points-based system for EU migrants.

:33:58.:34:02.

No, the Prime Minister has been very clear migration is going to come

:34:03.:34:06.

down. The referendum vote was clearly a boat for controlling the

:34:07.:34:09.

number to come here. The Australian points-based system is merely one

:34:10.:34:13.

way of achieving it. You wouldn't go to the wall on that? Parliament

:34:14.:34:19.

should decide. There's a principle that Maurice Glasman and I are

:34:20.:34:22.

outlining today which is we think there should be a fair migration

:34:23.:34:25.

system which doesn't discriminate between countries. At the moment if

:34:26.:34:30.

you from Bulgaria you've got an advantage over someone who comes

:34:31.:34:35.

from Bangladesh, even if you've got skills from Bangladesh and you're an

:34:36.:34:39.

unskilled worker from Bulgaria. But if the government were to meet its

:34:40.:34:43.

target on immigration in the tens of thousands, fewer people from all

:34:44.:34:46.

over the world would have to come. Fewer people from outside the EU by

:34:47.:34:52.

a huge number and fewer people from within the EU by a huge number.

:34:53.:34:56.

There are two questions there. The first is the absolute level, the

:34:57.:35:00.

numbers. I think the important thing is that whatever the figure,

:35:01.:35:04.

Parliament should decide not an outside body. The second thing is

:35:05.:35:07.

the basis on which we operate. I think the right thing to do is to

:35:08.:35:11.

have a fair policy that doesn't discriminate. You also said the new

:35:12.:35:16.

immigration policy should be based on "The brightest and. Most

:35:17.:35:20.

countries would always want the brightest and the best. Do you

:35:21.:35:28.

accept in a growing economy there is also a need for and skilled

:35:29.:35:32.

migrants? At certain times there can be a requirement for unskilled

:35:33.:35:38.

migrants. As a result of freedom of movement we had far too many people

:35:39.:35:43.

coming here, dispersing the wages of working people. One thing Maurice

:35:44.:35:47.

Glasman and I want to do is talk to working-class communities. There has

:35:48.:35:49.

been a caricature of the view many people have an immigration. The

:35:50.:35:54.

caricature is people want to pull up the drawbridge. They don't. They do

:35:55.:35:59.

want to see the numbers of unskilled people coming here more firmly

:36:00.:36:03.

controlled. But if you want the best and brightest and you still want an

:36:04.:36:08.

element of unskilled migration, I don't understand how you're ever

:36:09.:36:12.

going to hit net migration of 100,000 if that still your target.

:36:13.:36:16.

It's the government 's target. One of the reasons for having this

:36:17.:36:21.

commission, we can ask the public the question where did they think

:36:22.:36:25.

that figure should be pitched. You fought to elections with that in

:36:26.:36:30.

your manifesto. Absolutely. I didn't strongly disagree with it but I do

:36:31.:36:33.

think there was a problem with it. The problem was we could not hit

:36:34.:36:37.

that figure while we were in the European Union. Migration has to

:36:38.:36:40.

come down from the current level it is that if people are going to have

:36:41.:36:45.

confidence that in the future we are making the right decisions about who

:36:46.:36:48.

we let in. But isn't it clear that even outside the EU, given that the

:36:49.:36:56.

total net migration is about 330000 and its split almost even Stevens

:36:57.:37:01.

between EU and non-EU, even outside the EU you're not going to hit

:37:02.:37:07.

100,000. Does not undermine public confidence in our political elite

:37:08.:37:11.

that you've outlined targets you know you're not going to meet, as

:37:12.:37:16.

your government didn't meet for six years. Absolutely. I agree with

:37:17.:37:21.

every word. So the government should not have reiterated 100,000 of the

:37:22.:37:26.

target? No, you cannot meet it while we are in the European Union. You

:37:27.:37:30.

could if we are out. The Prime Minister wants to try to hit that

:37:31.:37:33.

target. I think bringing migration down is a good thing. I also think

:37:34.:37:38.

it's important we listen to the public before arriving at what that

:37:39.:37:42.

target should be. You're going to be on this committee chaired by Hilary

:37:43.:37:49.

Benn, scrutinising the work of the government in the Brexit process.

:37:50.:37:52.

Throughout the referendum campaign, you made it clear that to leave the

:37:53.:38:01.

European Union was also a vote to leave the single market in terms of

:38:02.:38:04.

membership. Not that you wouldn't have access but to leave in terms of

:38:05.:38:10.

being a member. That seems clear to me in everything the government has

:38:11.:38:14.

said. Why won't the government admitted? Why doesn't the government

:38:15.:38:17.

admit we won't be a member of the single market? I made it clear, the

:38:18.:38:23.

remain camp made it clear, everybody made it clear that leaving the EU

:38:24.:38:26.

meant leaving the single market. One of the things about the government's

:38:27.:38:31.

negotiating position is I'm not part of that team, I'm going to be asking

:38:32.:38:34.

those questions and that's one question be putting to David Davis.

:38:35.:38:39.

I've asked them again and again and I can't get an answer. Once Chris

:38:40.:38:45.

Grayling denied to me on the Sunday politics that there was such a thing

:38:46.:38:48.

as membership of the single market. I can't imagine I'll be as good an

:38:49.:38:52.

interrogator as you but I'll try to get to the bottom of it! If you talk

:38:53.:38:57.

about leaving the single market as though it's a punishment, actually

:38:58.:39:00.

it's a liberation. Even in the knowledge that we are almost

:39:01.:39:03.

inevitably going to be leaving the single market, we've had the best

:39:04.:39:07.

news that Sunderland have had since Paolo Di Canio was sacked... Who is

:39:08.:39:14.

he? He was Sunderland's football manager. Sunderland has a football

:39:15.:39:20.

team?! It has a great football team! One other thing about that fate of

:39:21.:39:25.

confidence in Sunderland is that it's taken in the full knowledge

:39:26.:39:30.

will be outside the single market. Given the government's emphasis on

:39:31.:39:34.

having an ability to do our own free trade deals, does not follow

:39:35.:39:40.

automatically that we cannot remain inside the European Customs Union? I

:39:41.:39:44.

think that is, I don't have the same degree of certainty, I think it's

:39:45.:39:49.

pretty clear we should be outside the Customs Union as well, yes. Why

:39:50.:39:55.

doesn't the government guarantee the status of EU citizens already here

:39:56.:40:00.

and their families? Of people from the EU who have come here to work,

:40:01.:40:05.

they brought their families. They could be in the NHS, some of them

:40:06.:40:09.

could be in the Nissan car plant in Sunderland. They are in our fields,

:40:10.:40:15.

factories, helping provide our public services. Instead of making

:40:16.:40:18.

them a bargaining card, why doesn't the government say if you're here,

:40:19.:40:22.

you within the law, you and your family are welcome to stay here for

:40:23.:40:25.

as long as you want. Why doesn't the government do that? I agree with

:40:26.:40:32.

you. That was a question. I'm just making it clear I'm not challenging

:40:33.:40:38.

the proposition or disagreeing. I made that case during my brief

:40:39.:40:42.

ill-fated leadership bid. Why isn't the government saying that? I think

:40:43.:40:46.

the government wants to keep its cards close to its chest. One of the

:40:47.:40:52.

things that I can do as a backbencher is outlined my own

:40:53.:40:56.

views, but I wouldn't want to second-guess every decision the

:40:57.:40:58.

government is going to have to take during the course of these

:40:59.:41:04.

negotiations. It's all very well to save keep the cards close to the

:41:05.:41:08.

chest, People's lives are hanging on this and it's shameful. It really

:41:09.:41:12.

is. They have uncertainty. They don't know what they are doing. They

:41:13.:41:18.

are settled and married. It is just shameful, Michael. I take your

:41:19.:41:25.

point. Do you agree with that? I think it's important to dial down

:41:26.:41:29.

the rhetoric but I agree... The rhetoric gets dialled up because

:41:30.:41:35.

they really frightened. Fed. Angry. I entirely accept there is a range

:41:36.:41:41.

of feelings on this issue. I want to say to the government, when

:41:42.:41:47.

ministers appear in front of the committee, I will ask those

:41:48.:41:50.

questions as well. But my view is similar to yours. I haven't

:41:51.:41:54.

expressed a view, I've asked a question. My view is similar to the

:41:55.:42:00.

one you articulated in the body of the question. Implicit in the

:42:01.:42:05.

question. Finally on this point, isn't it just wrong, not just from a

:42:06.:42:14.

practical point of view but the implication in Margaret's question,

:42:15.:42:18.

from a moral position. It's wrong to make these people who are our

:42:19.:42:22.

friends and neighbours and allies in this country, to make them a

:42:23.:42:27.

bargaining card. Why don't we just do it? Whatever the Europeans do to

:42:28.:42:32.

our expats we can deal with it. Why have these decent hard-working

:42:33.:42:35.

people been made a bargaining card? I can only say that I am in

:42:36.:42:41.

agreement with you on this issue, and indeed have said so. But the

:42:42.:42:48.

government has taken a slightly different position and will have a

:42:49.:42:51.

chance to cross examine them in due course. When you're on this Brexit

:42:52.:42:55.

committee, one of the ministers who will come before it to be

:42:56.:42:59.

interrogated is Boris Johnson, are you looking forward to interviewing

:43:00.:43:03.

him? I always look forward to any encounter with Boris. So that's a

:43:04.:43:16.

yes? It's a yes. I know you've given other interviews on the events of

:43:17.:43:21.

the summer. But as you look back, you must have huge regrets do you

:43:22.:43:26.

not about the course of action you took. I made mistakes. I hope I've

:43:27.:43:30.

been open in acknowledging I've made mistakes. I can look back at each of

:43:31.:43:35.

the individual decisions I made and it seems to me they were right at

:43:36.:43:40.

the time. These mistakes I can learn from. Ultimately, Theresa May is

:43:41.:43:43.

Prime Minister, I think the Conservative Party made the right

:43:44.:43:46.

choice. Boris Johnson is a senior Cabinet minister and I his ability

:43:47.:43:53.

easily entitle him to that job. And I have a job to think, write and

:43:54.:43:57.

operate from the backbenches and I'm enjoying that at the moment. Do you

:43:58.:44:02.

regard joining the Brexit committee, working with Maurice Glasman the

:44:03.:44:07.

Labour peer, being on programmes like this, is this a long march back

:44:08.:44:18.

to re-establishment? No, it's standing up for the things I believe

:44:19.:44:23.

in. In particular, I played a part in the Leave Campaign. I think

:44:24.:44:26.

there's a responsibility on those of who played a big part in that

:44:27.:44:31.

campaign to see it through. I'm not running away from that. I celebrate

:44:32.:44:35.

that decision and I want to make sure it is implemented properly. I'm

:44:36.:44:40.

not in government, that gives me the freedom to make arguments to the

:44:41.:44:43.

government and to the country about how it should be done. I shall watch

:44:44.:44:49.

with interest how you and Maurice go along together. I can't for the life

:44:50.:44:54.

of me see a more odd couple. It strikes me as really strange. The

:44:55.:44:58.

odd couple was a very successful TV show! We make it back to front line

:44:59.:45:08.

politics again? -- will you make it back to front line politics again? I

:45:09.:45:12.

don't know. If Theresa May remains as Prime Minister, I think probably

:45:13.:45:18.

not. All I want to say is it's a privilege to work with Maurice. He

:45:19.:45:24.

is one of the smartest, nicest people in politics. He's one of the

:45:25.:45:28.

few Labour politicians who argued we should leave, and he did so great

:45:29.:45:39.

clarity. I think of it as salt and vinegar, we go well together. Not

:45:40.:45:47.

Marmite and Bovril! Michael, thank you for coming, I hope we'll see you

:45:48.:45:49.

again. It was announced this morning

:45:50.:45:52.

that the by-election in Richmond That means aid this week by election

:45:53.:46:03.

special through the night! Get the coffee on already!

:46:04.:46:07.

It was triggered when Zac Goldsmith quit the Tories to stand

:46:08.:46:10.

as an independent in protest over Heathrow expansion.

:46:11.:46:12.

It looks like it will be a straight fight between Mr Goldsmith

:46:13.:46:15.

and the Lib Dems, as the Tories aren't fielding

:46:16.:46:17.

But it's not just Heathrow that's important in Richmond,

:46:18.:46:20.

nearly 70% of voters in the area voted to stay in the EU.

:46:21.:46:23.

Unlike Zac Goldsmith who voted to leave.

:46:24.:46:28.

So what will the good people of Richmond be voting on -

:46:29.:46:31.

Zac Goldsmith has quit as a Conservative MP

:46:32.:46:42.

here in Richmond to run as an independent MP,

:46:43.:46:45.

furious at the Government's plans to expand Heathrow Airport.

:46:46.:46:47.

He wants the by-election here to be a referendum on that issue,

:46:48.:46:51.

but the Liberal Democrats, who also oppose Heathrow expansion,

:46:52.:46:54.

want the by-election to be about sending a powerful message

:46:55.:46:57.

Don't forget, Zac campaigned to leave the EU.

:46:58.:47:02.

What matters more to you - Heathrow or Brexit -

:47:03.:47:19.

when you come to decide who you're going to vote for?

:47:20.:47:22.

Right now, I would say Brexit.

:47:23.:47:27.

Can you put a ball in my box, please?

:47:28.:47:31.

Otherwise, I'll get a parking ticket.

:47:32.:47:35.

I voted out on Brexit anyway, so it'd be Heathrow.

:47:36.:47:38.

I can't vote but if I could, I certainly would vote for no

:47:39.:47:41.

Breaking news - it's Trevor McDonald.

:47:42.:47:58.

Well, we're not the favourites at the moment but we've only had

:47:59.:48:05.

the by-election announced for less than, or fewer, rather,

:48:06.:48:07.

than 24 hours, so there's still plenty of time.

:48:08.:48:09.

Do you think it's a good time for another election?

:48:10.:48:12.

The reason I chose Brexit is, it's going to have an immediate effect

:48:13.:48:16.

on me, whereas Heathrow I don't think will ever happen.

:48:17.:48:21.

Well, cos I live here and the planes drive me

:48:22.:48:27.

Right now, it seems like Brexit is creeping ahead.

:48:28.:48:37.

Everyone said it's difficult.

:48:38.:48:40.

What was the question - what do I think's more

:48:41.:48:46.

As an individual, yeah, Brexit, definitely.

:48:47.:49:01.

And after a lot of chin scratching here on the streets of Richmond,

:49:02.:49:07.

concern about Heathrow expansion is outweighed

:49:08.:49:09.

And we're joined now by the Conservative peer

:49:10.:49:19.

Nicholas True, who is also the Leader of Richmond Council.

:49:20.:49:25.

Welcome to the programme. Zac Goldsmith says he wants this

:49:26.:49:31.

by-election to be a referendum on Heathrow expansion. Buttoned his

:49:32.:49:34.

main opponent is also going to be against Heathrow expansion, how can

:49:35.:49:38.

it be a referendum? Well, it's a referendum on whether we want to

:49:39.:49:43.

keep our word and the fundamental point is, Zac Goldsmith gave a

:49:44.:49:46.

commitment, a rare thing in a politician, that he would do what

:49:47.:49:50.

he's done, he's kept his promise and we wish to keep him as our MP. But

:49:51.:49:56.

if you have a referendum, as we had on June 23, or in Scotland in

:49:57.:50:00.

September 2014, you get a choice of who you are going to vote for. The

:50:01.:50:04.

two front runners, if they are both in favour of no Heathrow expansion,

:50:05.:50:08.

and you are in favour of it, who do you vote for? You vote for the far

:50:09.:50:14.

more effective, competent unproven spokesman against Heathrow, Zac

:50:15.:50:18.

Goldsmith. But if you are also, as a 70 descent of those in Richmond are,

:50:19.:50:24.

against Brexit, why would you vote for a notorious Euro-sceptic? Zac

:50:25.:50:28.

Goldsmith has been MP since 2010. The question was asked was, what is

:50:29.:50:33.

more important the country? I personally think Brexit is hugely

:50:34.:50:37.

important the country, rather than a mistaken airport decision. The fact

:50:38.:50:41.

is, everybody in Richmond knows and has known for a long time where

:50:42.:50:46.

Goldsmith stands. He's been returned repeatedly. He has a very strong

:50:47.:50:49.

majority, even though it is well known that he's been against the EU.

:50:50.:50:54.

But the issue has become germane now because we voted to leave but your

:50:55.:50:59.

area did not vote to leave, so if you've got two front runners, both

:51:00.:51:03.

of them against Heathrow, which is the mood of the constituency, but

:51:04.:51:09.

one against how we voted on June the 23rd, which is the Lib Dems, which

:51:10.:51:14.

is the mood of your constituency, we've seen from the report, isn't

:51:15.:51:19.

there a danger that he loses? I don't think so. Obviously, he is

:51:20.:51:24.

taking risks. He doesn't need to do this. He's doing this because he

:51:25.:51:28.

thinks he has to a promise. But the real point here is whether this is

:51:29.:51:33.

an election for an MP to go to Westminster. Do you return a proven,

:51:34.:51:38.

well liked, successful MP or send an unknown quantity? We've actually

:51:39.:51:42.

just have a referendum in this country, as you pointed out earlier.

:51:43.:51:47.

35 million people voted and whether it is an unelected peers sitting in

:51:48.:51:52.

this chair or whether it is the leader of the Liberal Democrats

:51:53.:51:55.

saying we could rerun this, the fact is that this by-election would not

:51:56.:51:59.

have any effect on the policy of the country. What is the point of the

:52:00.:52:05.

by-election? Mr Goldsmith was elected twice. He was first elected

:52:06.:52:10.

in 2010, then re-elected in 2015. On both occasions, he made clear his

:52:11.:52:16.

opposition to Heathrow expansion. There was no doubt about that and

:52:17.:52:20.

last time I looked, he is still opposed to it. So what is the

:52:21.:52:25.

point... You've already been elected twice on opposing it, so what's the

:52:26.:52:30.

point of being elected a third time on opposing it? The point is, I'm

:52:31.:52:34.

sure he regrets having made the commitment, part of him, deep down,

:52:35.:52:39.

but he said when he was first adopted as an MP, when he was first

:52:40.:52:43.

elected, the second time he was elected, that if any government took

:52:44.:52:47.

the decision to expand Heathrow, he would force a by-election to enable

:52:48.:52:51.

local people to express their view. It may seem odd and old-fashioned

:52:52.:52:54.

but here is a politician who is keeping a promise he made to his

:52:55.:52:59.

electors and instead of falling down on his head and saying, isn't it

:53:00.:53:04.

ridiculous, for once a politician keeps his promise and one might

:53:05.:53:07.

actually praise that. You seem to imply it is maybe a promise he

:53:08.:53:10.

shouldn't have made since it is clear where he stands and he's been

:53:11.:53:14.

elected twice on it. Do you think he regrets it? I'm sure part of him

:53:15.:53:19.

dusted up who likes fighting an election? Here is a man with a safe

:53:20.:53:23.

seat in Westminster until 2020 but he made a promise and feels he has

:53:24.:53:27.

to do this and I think he should be respected for that. Are the local

:53:28.:53:31.

Tory activist in Richmond happy that there won't be a Tory candidate?

:53:32.:53:37.

Yes. I went to the Executive association yesterday and it was a

:53:38.:53:43.

very clear feeling that we have been delighted with Zac Goldsmith is our

:53:44.:53:48.

MP... So the constituency will be behind Mr Goldsmith? Unquestionably,

:53:49.:53:53.

there will be many Conservatives working for Zac Goldsmith and, I

:53:54.:53:57.

hope, people of other parties. I think it is regrettable that the Lib

:53:58.:54:00.

Dems are dividing the community which needs to be united against

:54:01.:54:04.

immensely powerful interests behind Heathrow. They were hardly going to

:54:05.:54:08.

give you a free one, where they? They used to have that seat and the

:54:09.:54:12.

one next to it so they weren't going to give you a free run. Principle is

:54:13.:54:16.

not the strongest point, I'll give you that. I'm sure in their

:54:17.:54:19.

situation, you would do exactly the same. Lets see what happens on

:54:20.:54:23.

December the 1st. It certainly means a late night for us. Thank you very

:54:24.:54:25.

much. Theresa May's arrival at Number 10

:54:26.:54:27.

was heralded as an end to spin and a return

:54:28.:54:29.

to old-fashioned plain-speaking. But efforts to find out what that

:54:30.:54:31.

means in practice have floundered with the Prime Minister

:54:32.:54:35.

demonstrating a flair for not But she's certainly not the first

:54:36.:54:37.

and surely not the last leader to give evasive responses

:54:38.:54:48.

to specific questions. I was entitled to express my views,

:54:49.:55:00.

I was entitled to be consulted. Did you threaten to overrule him? I did

:55:01.:55:05.

not instruct. Did you believe in old Labour? I believed in the values of

:55:06.:55:10.

the Labour Party. Did you believe in what they stood for? CND, union

:55:11.:55:15.

power not being curtailed? Nationalisation, no privatisation?

:55:16.:55:21.

Did you threaten to overrule him? I did not overrule him. Did you

:55:22.:55:26.

threaten to overrule him? I took advice on what I should do and I

:55:27.:55:29.

acted scrupulously in accordance with bad advice. I want to make sure

:55:30.:55:34.

children have those opportunities, that all schools offer a good

:55:35.:55:37.

education for children. But is not quite an answer about my question on

:55:38.:55:40.

grammar schools. You are not answering the question.

:55:41.:55:45.

Probably important aspect on this, which it is important to bear in

:55:46.:55:49.

mind... I'm going to seem rude, I'm sorry... There is no point in

:55:50.:55:56.

looking at different words. We're not going to give a running

:55:57.:56:00.

commentary. I'm not asking for a running commentary, I'm asking you a

:56:01.:56:04.

rather simple and basic question. That is not a web of an answer to

:56:05.:56:09.

the question of whether you threaten to overrule him.

:56:10.:56:12.

And I'm joined now by Dr Peter Bull from the University of York, who has

:56:13.:56:15.

dug into the science of Theresa May and other leading politicians

:56:16.:56:18.

Welcome to the programme. I understand you've come up with the

:56:19.:56:22.

fact that there are 35 different techniques politicians use to avoid

:56:23.:56:26.

answering the questions. Is that right. Can you give some examples?

:56:27.:56:30.

Yes, I have identified at least 35 different ways of not replying to

:56:31.:56:34.

the question. Common forms include attacking the question, there are

:56:35.:56:40.

lots of ways to do that. It is based on a British you've taken out of

:56:41.:56:44.

context, the quotation is mistaken, it is based on a false

:56:45.:56:48.

presupposition, it is a hypothetical question. I've had all of those,

:56:49.:56:52.

particularly the hypothetical one, because the key question people like

:56:53.:56:56.

me ask is hypothetical - if you do this, what will this follow? But I

:56:57.:57:03.

understand Theresa May has a whole new category of nonspecific

:57:04.:57:06.

responses to specific questions. I think we saw some of that that PMQs

:57:07.:57:12.

yesterday. We certainly did. Most of her none replies to the two

:57:13.:57:18.

interviews with Andrew Marr include this nonspecific response to a

:57:19.:57:21.

specific question. The question, for example, about, would she stop the

:57:22.:57:28.

Scots having a second referendum? When asked that, she actually says,

:57:29.:57:33.

"Well, it's not a question of whether they should have another

:57:34.:57:39.

referendum, but there should be another referendum," which is an

:57:40.:57:45.

interesting technique in that it doesn't answer the question but

:57:46.:57:48.

rephrase the question in a way in which she wants to answer it.

:57:49.:57:51.

Liebrich, I know what you are talking about and live with it on a

:57:52.:57:56.

daily basis. Do you have any advice to help me? One of the interesting

:57:57.:57:59.

things to the interviewers is the way they follow evasion and in your

:58:00.:58:07.

opening sequence, you quoted the celebrated sequence where Jeremy

:58:08.:58:13.

Paxman poses the question 16 times but the extent to which you can

:58:14.:58:16.

follow up, draw attention to the evasion and keep following it up,

:58:17.:58:20.

how many times do you follow it up and not get a reply?

:58:21.:58:23.

Thank you for joining us. Fascinating stuff. Good to talk to

:58:24.:58:25.

you. There's just time before we go

:58:26.:58:28.

to find out the answer to our quiz. Who did the Queen mistake

:58:29.:58:31.

Vladimir Putin for during I hope it wasn't Prince Andrew, her

:58:32.:58:42.

son! Hopefully she would recognise her son! She doesn't see him a lot!

:58:43.:58:46.

It wasn't Prince Andrew. I'm going to hazard a guess at your good self.

:58:47.:58:48.

Andrew Marr! That it is. The one o'clock news is starting

:58:49.:58:54.

over on BBC One now. I will be joined by Michael

:58:55.:58:57.

Portillo, Alan Johnson, Digby Jones, Helen Lewis

:58:58.:58:59.

an the Rev Richard Coles

:59:00.:59:02.

Andrew Neil is joined by Labour peer Margaret Prosser for the latest news from Westminster, including an interview with former Cabinet minister Michael Gove on his new policy commission to examine the opportunities that leaving the EU brings.


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