19/01/2017 Daily Politics


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Afternoon folks and welcome to the Daily Politics.


Theresa May tells world leaders and global business chiefs


that Britain will still be "open for business" after Brexit and says


global elites must do more to respond to the anxieties


Is the EU out to administer a "punishment beating" to the UK


We speak to a leading German member of the European Parliament.


We may be living in an age of political insurgency.


But, if you're taking on the establishment,


But did we get some early hints about his political ambitions?


Eventually I think we'll get the right person and when we do, it'll


all straighten out. I wonder who he had in mind back


then? And with me for the whole


of the programme today, our very own little insurgent -


Ukip's one and only Now it's been almost 48


hours since Theresa May gave her big speech on Brexit,


so it's probably time The Prime Minister has been


addressing global political and business bigwigs gathering


for the World Economic Forum She's been keen to reassure them


that Britain will remain very much open for business


after we leave the EU. Our decision to leave


the European Union was no rejection of our friends in Europe,


with whom we share common interest So, at the heart of the plan I set


out earlier this week, is a determination to pursue a bold


and ambitious free trade agreement between the UK


and the European Union. But more than that, we seek


the freedom to strike new trade deals with old friends


and new allies, right The kind of audience there is at


Davos, it must have been a binary speech. On the one hand she's the


leader of Brexit, which they hate, on the other hand, she is a huge


supporter of globalisation and world trade, which is under threat, and


they love. Well, I hope, listening to her speech, they might be


rethinking some of their cliched group think. You know, that, that's


the second great speech we've heard from Theresa May in three days. I


think if I was asked to contribute to what she was saying, I woonted


have changed a word. I think she's Bang on the Money. -- I wouldn't


have changed a word. What are the chances of rethinking, we've had


some of the pressures up. We've heard HSBC talking about "perhaps"


which is the key word, of Retallick locating staff to Paris. And US


Goldman Sachs talking about 1,000 from London to Frankfurt. How


seriously to the take the threats? When I was working for a FTSE 100


fund manager in the when we decided not to join the euro, we heard the


same claims made and actually far from jobs being lost to London,


since then London has consolidated its position. So you don't take it


seriously? I - we heard a lot of these claims made in the run-up to


the referendum. It may than there are some businesses who feel they


are better off moving to Paris or Frankfurt but we heard this 20 years


ago when we decided not to join the euro. What will decide whether or


not the City and rest of the UK prospers, is whether or not, having


left the European Union, we make good on this vision of a liberal


Brexit, opening ourselves up to the world and not just the eurozone. If


we do that, we will prosper enormously. Did you do that do you


think they'll stay? I think so. What about Toyota? It employs 3,000


people in Britain? A lot of the people employed by corporate


lobbyists in the run-up to the referendum were dead against Brexit.


They haven't got over it but the actual business men and women, who


make the decisionses, I think will come to term with the change,


recognise liberal breaks sit good business and we'll see them chaging


their tune. But it was the Chairman of HSBC, not the corporate lobbyist,


that said, "We will move in about two years' time when Brexit


becomes... ." It is in about two years' now rather than immediately


after. Are you sceptical of the claims? I am but they know their


better than I do. Let's wait and see, I suspect in 10, 15 years'


time, the City of London will be more of a global financial hub than


it is today. What do you make of this claim, the Maltese Prime


Minister, I think he is part now of the - he is in the EU ro Tait


presidency seat for the first six months of the year and repeats this


demand or idea that Britain would have to pay a 60 billion euro exit


price. I mean t would seem to me - I don't know what really that is based


on, or whether it has any real basis but whether it has any basis or not,


I would suggest to you in a no British Prime Minister could ever


agree to that? Of course, it is a businessless claim. But what we need


to avoid doing is getting involved in a war of words between some of


the more excitable eurocrats. He is the Prime Minister. He is head of


the rotating presidency. Some of the people, they are talking about their


tax and bonuses and empire of official dom who'll resent us from


leaving. We won't rise to the debate. We are good neighbours and


Theresa May's speech was generous, making clear we want to be good


neighbours. That wasn't something we said during the referendum campaign.


A country outside the European Union, we want to cooperate. It may


not be 60 billion, unlikely to be anywhere near, that but will there


not be some price to pay as we exit? Clearly we want it leave on good


terms and we want to honour any commitments we have under


international law but we're not about to pick up a huge bill to, you


know, help some of the anti-Brexiteers in the European


system come to terms with their grief. We are going to leave in a


couple of years' time and, you know, we promise not to pursue a claim for


our share of buildings and other things that our money has funded, in


return for a good, fair, reasonable settlement. We want this to work for


both sides. We don't want it to be a bitter divorce. You have said twice


in the past couple of minute, how much you liked both of Mrs May's


speeches, so you are generally happy with the direction that she's going


in now? I'm absolutely delighted. I have been pushing all my adult life


to have a Government, a Prime Minister, committed to this agenda,


I really feel quite emotional about t actually. I think it is wonderful.


It is likely - we are waiting on the Supreme Court, I think it is 24th


January. Next Tuesday. Next Tuesday, it is going to rule. There is an be


a assumption, we don't know, but in the media and politics, we seem to


be operating on the asuchings that the Supreme Court will uphold the


challenge. Are there any parliamentary dangers for the


Article 50 process if we have to do what the Supreme Court says, and it


has to go through the parliamentary procedure? I don't think - if the


court rules that it is exclusively for Parliament to make any decision,


I don't see a danger. A worst case scenario, if you find a Parliament


that resists the referendum, you simply call a new election and make


sure you have a Parliament that agrees with the verdict of the


people. I think the danger comes from the judges get it into their


heads that it is someone other than Parliament that must make this


decision. For example, if they give the Welsh Assembly or the Scottish


Parliament or any other third party de facto veto powers, that I think


would trigger a constitutional crisis, but it is for Parliament to


decide. Even if the House of Lords decided to throw a woby, you could


call an election reand replace them. So you think it is possible in the


Lords do in some way try to block this or delay it, that could provoke


an election, too? I do, absolutely. You know, if we could leave the


European Union and make sure that those who make our laws in


Parliament live under the lawyer, that would be the icing on the cake,


wouldn't it? What about Ukip? Will Paul Nuttal will fighting the


by-election himself? We'll have a hustings tomorrow. I genuinely don't


know. We'll make the announcement on Saturday. Paul would be a superb


candidate. This is not about Ukip, fws Stoke. Stoke has had a Labour MP


from 1950, it deserves something better than that. Would he be your


choice? I think he would be superb but we're a Democratic Party and I'm


not registered to vote in that hustings. I will be supporting


whoever but Paul will be a superb candidate. He really would be a


force for Stoke. All right. We shall see.


European leaders have continued to respond


Yesterday, the President of the European Commission,


Jean Claude Juncker, struck a conciliatory tone,


saying he wanted a "fair deal" without any "hostility".


However, the Maltese Prime Minister, Joseph Muscat, said the deal should


It came as Boris Johnson, on a trip to India, took aim


at the French President, warning him not to hit


the UK with "punishment beatings, in the manner of some


You can always depend on Boris Johnson.


Joining us now from the European Parliament in Strasbourg


is the MEP Manfred Weber, the Chairman of the centre-right EPP


grouping in the European Parliament.


Welcome to the programme, Mr Weber. Are you so worried that others might


want to leave the European Union that you need to be seen to give


Britain a really bad deal? ? After the Brexit, we experienced that


Europeans via the polls that people are signalling that they understand


that how important European Union is. ... They believe in the European


Union. That's why I have no problem with this. They are ready for a fair


deal. The European Parliament is a Parliament of content. They are


ready for a fair deal but we have to discuss what fair means. You don't


think that the European mainstream political establishment, of which


you are a distinguished member, faces troubles when Wilder is ahead


in the polls in Holland and Marine Le Pen could come first in the first


round of the French elections. You don't think these are problems for


people like you? Absolutely. They are problems for all of us, I would


say because when they are winning, who want to destroy our partnership


approach. For example, to have a good straight deal, Marine Le Pen


makes a campaign against the single market because in frances the


biggest problem is the unemployment rate. So everybody has its problem.


The question is how can we solve them? Is it better to split up the


European Union and Member States or work together? That's the approach


behind and frankly speaking when I hear the words from Boris Johnson,


that is exactly what I mean, to provoke each other, to say to each


other that we don't like each other and so on, that is not the way how


we should work and Boris Johnson is behaving like a clown and is taking


away the credibility of the government. Well, Boris onson is not


hear to defend himself. ! Let's try to come back to the substance. When


you look at what is happening in Holland n France, the ongoing


Italian political and financial crisis, Mrs Merkel facing a very


tough collection coming up in September. Have you learned nothing


from the Brexit vote? Well, I have learned a lot from the Brexit vote.


For example, that nobody explained to the British people what Europe is


all B for example, when you talk about trade, Theresa May made clear


statements on trade. So what is EU? EU is the single market. The free


trade zone. That is for the whole of the European Union much that's what


the Brits wanted. It was the idea of Europe. Now you say you want to


leave the European Union. I respect the outcome of Europe, but on the


other hand you say you want a free trade agreement. So leads to the


situation that nothing will change. Do you want to leave or not leave


the single market. Mr Weber there are many countries who have free


trade agreements with the EU, the most recent Canada, which are not


members of the single market. Absolutely. So why can't Britain?


And they will never get Canada, the others will never get the same


status like EU members have inside of the European Union, of this this


free trade zone, created during the last decade, so much positive


development for all of us, for Britain, Germany all of us and that


is what some want to destroy now. I fight for t others can destroy it.


It is a normal democratic process. I'm elected and Boris Johnson is


elected. If it is so positive, why has there been mass youth


unemployment in the eurozone and it is only this year or the end of last


year that the European Union managed in GDP terms, to get back to the


size it was in 2008. Why is that so positive? Britain is 15% bigger than


2008, America, 20% bigger Fair question ache ask, why has Spain and


Ireland got rise rates. And Germany with a stable development Because


they slashed wages. In Spain they slashed wages by 20% and there is


still 40% youth unemployment in Spain. Is there a chance of an


answer or no chance? I want to answer your question. You want it


interview me and that is the background of our meeting, yeah,


that's why I want to give you a rection a. The question is the


growth. The most important question about


social welfare, all of these questions are national


responsibilities. Don't come with the question that Europe is


responsible for everything. That is the easy question. That Brussels is


always responsible. That is not true. Others have tasks to do.


Please be fair. I'm still not clear what the lesson you have learned


from the Brexit vote is, apart from business as usual. You just want to


repeat the same arguments and behave in the same way. Given all of the


political challenges that Europe faces this year, are you not


changing your behaviour in any way? No national politician has convinced


people why Europe is important. I will give you another example when


you talk about trade. I still think the Single Market is a good thing.


And another example is the fight against terror. I think we need the


European Union. That is why we work in the European Parliament on a


jihadist list, our intelligence forces are strongly working


together. That is the idea of Europe. It is about practical


things. I learned with my meeting with David Davies that Britain wants


to stay in this unity of exchange of data that is part of Europe. That's


why I have no idea what Brexit means for the moment. You want to leave,


but I learn that you want to stay in the Single Market, the fair trade


agreement, the question of exchange between universities on research in


Europe. Oxford and others want to stay. What are you leaving? What do


you want to do? Don't talk about Europe and bureaucracy and Brussels.


I'm in favour of this partnership approach. What do you say to the


Finance Minister of Italy, who has said the problem with Europe is


Europe, that people don't have faith in Europe any more? And he has to


think about himself because he is a politician who once Europe. He is


dealing with the Euro. Let's face the reality. The reality is we have


a global problem on the table. We see how big are member states are.


The nations in the European Union are competitive. We have to face the


reality that one single member state of this European Union alone cannot


compete with China and others. That is the reality. You can think in


another direction, but I think it is better to combine our forces and


fight for a common interests, both the social model of Europe, for


example, which is unique globally, to fight for these common values


together. That is what I believe in, that is what I will fight for. I am


a Democrat. If you are a Democrat, you no doubt you respect the result


on June 24. It affects EU citizens living in Britain, of which there


are about 3 million with their families. And EU citizens living in


the EU. Why not take them off the table now? Why not say that any EU


citizen in the UK has guaranteed rights indefinitely, and any UK


citizen living in the EU -- EU has guaranteed rights indefinitely? Why


not do that now? That as a starting point already. Mrs Merkel has turned


that down. At the moment nobody wants to start negotiations. The


point I am putting it to you is that when Mrs May made the offer to the


German chancellor, she turned it down. Why make these people part of


the negotiations? Please don't be surprised when Angela Merkel and


other leaders in Europe will say, first of all, please, London, give


us a triggering of Article 50. For the moment we only have speeches. We


have declarations. Formerly there is nothing on the table. That is why it


is completely fair when I asked London, please put formerly your


questions on the table. Then we can start the negotiation. If we agree


on the principle that we are not punishing Britain for leaving the


European Union, then on the other hand I would also ask, don't make


pressure on the rest of the European Union in saying you want to deliver


another economic model. I merely asked about EU citizens. But you


seem not to want to do anything at the moment. I clarified this. I'm


totally ready to respect the current situation and respect the citizens.


I only wanted to ask if we are not creating any additional aggression.


Save this pleased to Johnson, when you see him next time. I will talk


to my friends to reduce the pressure. We're ready to negotiate.


But leaving the European Union means leaving the European Union. We got


that, Mr Webber. I do many things in this world, Mr Webber, but taking


messages to Boris Johnson is not one of them. Thank you.


Now as we've been hearing, Theresa May has been addressing


the World Economic Forum in Davos this morning.


It's an annual gathering in Switzerland, where political


and business leaders discuss global issues.


But what is this exclusive event, and which masters and mistresses


of the universe are attending this year?


The Forum - as it is known - takes place every year in the alpine


The event was founded in 1971 by the German


Its stated mission? To improve the state of the world.


The theme of this year's event is Responsive


More than 2,500 politicians, business leaders and heads of state


from almost 100 countries are attending Davos.


But if you're hoping to attend next year,


Speakers at this year's Forum include US Vice President Joe Biden,


Chinese Premier Xi Jingping, and the Head of the International


David Cameron and George Osborne are also making speeches


But with the cost of attending the annual Davos shindig running


into tens of thousands of pounds, some have criticised the event


as a glorified party for the global elite.


Joining us from Davos to discuss this further is Jennifer Blanke.


She's the Chief Economist for the World Economic Forum.


Thank you for joining us. Can I just ask you one question. After the


speech by the Chinese president to Davos this year, China daily says


President G has become the general secretary of globalisation. Are you


comfortable with that? Well look, I think that everybody is looking how


to make globalisation work well. There has been a love of


disgruntlement in recent years about how the opening in various ways has


affected people. And I think that the fact that the Chinese government


wants to take a serious stand on some issues, and when you talk about


globalisation it is also about how we deal with things like climate


change, and I do believe that the Chinese economy is one of the most


important, the second most important, soon-to-be first, in the


world. It is important they take a strong stand on some of these


issues. Do I feel comfortable? It has to be a coordinated effort. We


need leaders of important countries taking stands. China joined the WTO


in 2001 and has put in face -- place market access foreign companies. Did


anybody raise that with him in Davos? I think if you think about


globalisation there are many things that combine to make a globalised


world. If you look at China, why is China pro-globalisation? Because the


country stagnated for decades until 1979. Did anybody raise these points


with him? I don't know if anybody raised that with him directly. I was


not in the room with him. However, clear these kind of things are dealt


with at the WTO. There is a mechanism. We are mapping out the


future here, not looking at the past. He was the Chinese leader


championing globalisation and free trade at Davos, and yet is presiding


over a ruthless crackdown on dissidents in China itself. The


trend, according to human rights watch, is decidedly negative. There


has in a crackdown on human rights lawyers. Did anybody in Davos raise


that with him? I don't think what we do is raise issues directly with


foreign leaders. We raise discussion points among many people about


issues that need to be raised. Human rights is very high on the agenda.


The question of democracy is very high on the agenda. Not if you


didn't raise it with him. That is not the point of Davos. It is not a


one-on-one between us and foreign leaders. It is about bringing


together business, government, civil society and academia to map out a


future. We can talk about human rights issues all we want. There are


many issues of human rights around the world. It didn't sound like you


talked about it at all. We definitely talked about it a lot. I


think we can forgive the fact that these corporate kleptocratic


get-together. We can forget they trade cliches as easily as they


traded business cards. But we can't forget that Davos creates groupthink


and it allows so-called leaders to marinade themselves in this bogus


sense of reassurance. They don't see the dangers of their wrong policies.


In 2006, shortly before the sub-prime crisis, they completely


failed to see the sub-prime crisis coming. Shortly before Lehman


Brothers went bust, the founder of the world economic Forum said the


mood from Davos was optimistic. What do you say to that? That it is


almost a self-deluding groupthink? I don't think it is a self-deluding


groupthink. Maybe two thirds of the people in Davos are from business


and government. The other third come from civil society. They come from


social entrepreneurs and academia. I agree there is a discussion about


whether we have missed out on something. Certainly the rise of


inequality is of great concern. I focus most of my time thinking about


how the process can work differently. It is easy to complain


about the situation from outside. It is harder to map out what we are


going to do going forward. We have leaders in Davos. But the people who


make decisions are the leaders. Therefore it's very important that


we sit here together. We came out with the report a few days ago. We


talked about the fact that growth is not enough. It is very important for


the process of growth to be inclusive. This resonates very well


with what Theresa May talked about today. This is something that is


high on the agenda. It may be high on the agenda but you have been


going since 1971. What has Davos done about low wages, growing


inequality? First of all it is not just growing inequality. We are


contributing to a better understanding of what has to happen.


Clearly the growth model that we had used in recent years is no longer


functioning. But what have you done? We have convened discussion leaders.


We have a global challenge initiative on the issue of inclusive


growth, where we bring together leaders, figuring out how it is we


can work together to change systems. Discussion is the first step. That


is one thing we have done. If you look at other areas we have worked


on, for example, rainforests, we are working on both trying to protect


the devastation of rainforests while increasing the productivity of


agriculture at the same time. Dealing again with the inclusiveness


of the growth process of those people who live in rainforests. I


asked about low wages and inequality. Another example is that


many of our big companies in a project they did together all


committed to hiring a large number of young people into internship


programmes. This started a few years ago. We have already touched many


thousands of young people, which is a big problem in Europe in


particular. There are commitments we follow through on. In 1971, the kind


of people at Davos and about 40 times the average wage of the people


who work for them. Today it's closer to 160 or 170 times. That's the


inequality. A lot of people will think Davos is part of the problem,


the people there are part of the problem? They pay themselves so


much, they pay their workers in real terms less and less. They are the


problem, not the solution. I don't think tts only inequality


problem in the world. The fact is that labour has not seen an increase


in wages. That's true. We came up the idea of a social context


yesterday where business leaders are committing to, you know, take


efforts to avoid this sort of inequality. But it is not just about


what CEOs earn and what the rest of the populous earns. What I'm much


more worried about is the fact that medium incomes has not gone up. The


middle class is not seeing improvement and this is' where we


are focussing and at the same time let's keep in mind poverty has


dropped massively in recent years, and this has a lot to do with a


well-regulated market-based economy. All right, let me bring Douglas


Carswell back N The The sort of corporate cleptocratss. That means


thieves. Well #24er what war web jp Haasings and the East India Company


used to be. The value of the shares lost 30% of its value, 30% of money


and yet executives running businesses awarded themselves 80%


pay increases. Corporate governance has broken down, we have capitalism


without capitalists. A final question, to you, Jenny. With the


election of Mr Trump, with the Brexit vote, with the rise of


political insurgents across Europe, this year and many elections, is


Davos past its peak, not just out of touch, it is over, really. A were


professor from Harvard once said - the conventional wisdom of Davos is


always wrong, that you are wrong so often that you are now in decline?


Well, if I go back it something you said before, about the sub-prime


crisis, I don't think anybody saw it coming. In terms of whether Davos is


fit for purpose, we've reinvented ourselves year after year to I can


at that on key issue that is really important on the global agenda. So,


do I think we are pass say, no? . Particularly because I think we are


constantly bringing new voices in, young voices from around the world


and I very much home because there is no other framework for


public-private discussion like we have, we will be fit for purpose in


the future. Thank you for joining us. We'll let you get back to the


proceedings. Representatives of the devolved


administrations have been meeting UK government ministers in Westminster


this morning, to talk about - Theresa May said in her


speech that she wanted the governments of Scotland,


Wales and Northern Ireland to be But the SNP have said this week


that the UK government's policy to leave the single market makes


a second independence Mike Russell, the Scottish


government's spokesman on Brexit, spoke to the BBC on his


way into the meeting. We were meant to be


involved in decisions, I think there will be a general view


that that breached the process What do you expect to come


out of this meeting? Well, I'm hopeful we'll take forward


the options in the paper that we've submitted,


and particularly the options of Scotland remaining a member


of the single market, They have been well-supported


across the board and I'll be We take the Scottish Government's


proposal seriously. We'll have a discussion


about them today. We're going to be involved over


a period of time in these discussions and I'm meeting


Mr Russell again next So let's see what he has to say


at today's presentation. I've said I'm open-minded


on a whole range of issues but the Scottish Government has


to come forward with an evidence Joining me now is Joanna Cherry,


the SNP's Westminster spokesperson Welcome to the programme. Mike


Russell who we just heard there, says, implied that the EU single


market is more important than the UK single market. Why is that? Well, I


think they are both more important to Scotland. It's a little-known


fact this, but England, Scotland is actually England's biggest export


destination. So, our aim is to remain part of the EU single market,


and the UK single market. Why would the EU single market, as Mr Mr


Russell's mind, be more important than the UK single market? I think


what Mike is getting at is the fact that for us at the moment the growth


market is the EU. Scotland's exports to the EU are growing. How much do


they send to the EU? I cannot give the precise igs F I can, ?12


billion. Just under, 11.6. How much do you export to the rest of the UK?


Last year we expected about ?46 billion and the rest of the UK


exported into Scotland about ?52 billion. You will see Scotland is


actually a bigger export market for the rest of the UK. What's important


about that. No, hold on. You just admitted, the actual figure last


year was ?48.5 billion. I'm taking the most recent. Well the most


recent ones are coming out today, this week, I have not seen them.


?48.5 million to the rest of the UK, verses ?12 billion to the rest of


the EU. Your exports to the rest of the UK are four times your exports


to the EU. In what way account EU single market be more important than


the UK single market? It is our growth market. It is four timing


bigger the UK You are pos itting this question to me as though we had


to make a choice between the UK and EU single market. David Davis went


to Ireland and spoke to businessmen and women in Dublin and he said that


the Republic of Ireland will not need to choose after Brexit between


its commitment to the UK and its commitment to the EU. We believe


that if Scotland stays in the single market and the rest of the UK does


not, then Scotland will not and should not have to choose between


its commitment to the EU and the rest rest of the UK as trading


markets and my point in saying this to you, awe weren't far off on


figures I said ?4646 billion from Scotland to -- ?46 billion to


Scotland. My point is, that Scotland is Britain's biggest export mark it


would be a kamikaze action to create a hard border between Scotland and


England. We're not interested in that, we're interested in respecting


the wish of the Scottish people to remain in the EU. I heard you


talking about a veto earlier. We are not interested in that. We believe


that the wishes of the rest of the UK, England and Wales, not Northern


Ireland, to leave the EU, must be respected, in the same way that the


wish of the Scots to Remain should be the ared. That's why we've put


forward in compromise proposal that my colleague, Mike Russell is


current willy discussing in the joint ministerial committee. Now


that compromise, you will see, Andrew, you will know that we


suggested that the whole of the UK could remain in the single market.


That has been ruled out Theresa May ruled that out on Tuesday in her


speech. One might question her motives. It is ruled out. Our


fallback position was Scotland should remain in the single market.


The Spanish have said that's not going to happen Well, the Spanish


may have said it is not going to happen but the Spanish like the rest


of us are going into a negotiation. We heard Theresa May specifically


talk about the wishes of the Spanish fishermen to have access to the


fisheries around the UK, so people might state what their ideal


position is, in any negotiation, but there is room for give and take.


Well, the so Secretary of State for Europe in Spain. There is only one


negotiator, that's the UK Government - if the UK leaves the single


market, the whole of the UK leaves the single market. That's one voice


out of 27 others. You need all 27. It is a strong one. That is why I


and my colleagues have been travelling around the European


Union, since the Brexit vote speaking to other Member States.


Let's look at the Spanish situation in particular. On the fringes of


Spain we have Gibraltar. It is in a slightly an op louse position. It


voted overwhelmingly to remain part of the European Union. Gibraltar is


in the EU but not the customs union. The Channel Islands are in the


customs union but not until the EU. There is existing scope and


precedent for differential arrangements. Now we are are in


completely unchartered territory. No member state has voted to leave the


EU. So it is unchartered. Equally the proposals which the Scottish


Government have put forward are unchartered Terry. Hold on a minute


your proposal, basically proposed the devolution of almost everything


to the Scottish Parliament -- immigration, separate business


regime. Corporation tax. Everything. It's basically a blueprint for


independence. The British Government is not going to agree to that. Well,


let's see what the British Government... You would need a hard


border if you had that. Your own immigration. No, David Davis has


told us when Britain leaves the European Union and the Republic of


Ireland remains a member there will be no hard border between the north


and South. The Republic of Ireland is not a member of shengin. You


would be a new member, that may be a price you have to pay It is a member


of the common travel area, which has been in existence before the


European Union and which Scotland has been a member of since way


before the European Union, so what we are looking for here, in our


compromised proposals is a compromise in the situation... It is


not a compromise, it is a demand for independence by the back door. It is


not, Andrew. Well, one of the people sitting on the council, Sir Charles


Grant who was involved in this process you went through, said that


these plans are not legally, politically or technically feasible.


Equally, David Edwards, my former tutor and distinguished former judge


at the European Court of Justice, who sits on the panel, has said that


the proposals should be looked at seriously. Now that's one of the


finest legal brains in Scotland. Let me bring in Douglas Carswell in.


Scotland didn't vote to leave the European Union. It's now having to


leave the European Union, and the single market. You can understand


why they are upset? Well, I suspect that some in the SNP would see any


event as a pretext to call for a second referendum. But, I think it's


important to remember that more people in Scotland voted to stay in


the UK, just over 2 million, than voted to remain in the EU. We made


the decision as a United Kingdom, on our EU membership, and, you know, my


side won that... They were promised if they voted... I'm sorry, there


was a referendum. I feel for you. It was promised to us in Scotland if we


voted to remain part of the UK, we will remain part of the EU. That


promise has broken. Circumstances have changed. Indeed it has, it was


a very important point. It was said the way to vote to stay in the EU


was to vote for Scotland to stay in the UK. A quick question for you. In


the current timetable Britain is scheduled to leave the EU in March


2019. Will there be a referendum on Scottish independence before then?


Whether or not there will be a referendum depends on the British


Government's suppose response to our proposals and that's what is under


discussion in the jount ministerial committee this morning. We do not


know. We do not know but if they ditch the proposals and dent look at


them seriously, it is likely there will be another independence


referendum. Before March 2019. The First Minister said it will not be


this year We'll see how the timetable unfolds thereafter. That


would only believe 2018 Now, we like to ask the big


Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the world?


Our guest of the day, Douglas Carswell, says he's very


But, he argues, most mainstream politicians have a pessimistic view,


and that is bad news for us and for our society.


# You've got to accentuate the positive


When we think of politics, we often place politicians


and their policies on a spectrum between left and right but the real


divide in politics today isn't between left and right.


# Just when everything looked so dark...#


Do you, like me, believe that the world is looking up,


that the human condition, however imperfect,


Do you believe that modernity, particularly in its Western


form is a corruption of the human condition?


This difference in our attitude towards the past


Because if you believe we've come down, you invite people to impose


a blueprint as the solution and that's been the pretext of every


If, instead, you recognise that the world has been getting


better, you are half way to accepting the liberal idea


of a self-organising society, with no need for grand plans and no


Guess which way of looking at things most politicians prefer?


The one that puts them centre stage, obviously.


# You've got to spread joy (up to the maximum)


# Bring gloom (down to the minimum)...#


Liberals have lost sight of the idea of a self-organising society,


Which is why they side with those supernational


agencies, and organisations, who want to organisation


Too many self-styled progressives fail to appreciate quite how much


Living standards are at a record high.


Income and equality is lower today in Britain


Violent crime is almost half what it was in the 1990s


and my favourite, a moving car in Britain today emits less


pollution than a stationary one did in the 1970s.


No wonder progressive Liberalism is in such a funk.


Cheer up, the world really is getting better.


And to discuss this further we're joined by Guardian


Are you in a progressive funk? No, not at all! Is an odd day as Donald


Trump is getting inaugurated tomorrow. Douglas is a great


politician because he is a great -- freethinker in wild terms. He has


got his head in the clouds. He is a kind of right wing anarchist. You


believe in no government, self organising. Where does that get us?


I think I believe that what we do collectively together is better than


anything we do as individuals on our own. I look at how this government


has, in the last six years, dismantled huge part of government.


You look at the NHS beginning to fall apart, something we were


proudest of. Environmental health officers no longer really check on


most restaurants. Things that we expect as a fundamental part of


civilised society are being stripped away. Let's get a dialogue. Respond


to that? When I was growing up, the right always seemed to be the doom


mongers. They were represented by old buffers. The left were the


people who wanted to build the new Jerusalem. I can't help thinking


that the reason the left is in such an existential crisis is precisely


because it sees change and improvement as some sort of decline.


And I think Polly has illustrated that rather neatly. All of the


change and improvements, grow from the left. They have brought us the


things we must admire and value. What we do together as a society is


what makes civilisation. You are against planning. When the left


believed in an organised society, when they were truly liberal, they


achieved huge change in the 19th century. But the liberal left has


lost sight of the idea of humans as their own agents. It believes in


blueprints. Whether that is socialism, environmentalism... They


like to tell the rest of us what to do. You are one of the most


ideological people, in an interesting way, in the House of


Commons. You have a neoliberalism. We're not here to talk about your


iss! We are here to look at your proposition that Mike is proposition


that the left is in a funk because it is not going your way. Mr Trump


is about to be inaugurated. The government in this country may be as


bad as you say. It is also 17 points ahead in the polls. The French


Socialist party is about to be wiped out. The Greek Socialist party has


already been wiped out. That is why you are in a funk. I'm not in a funk


but it is true, the ride is winning everywhere. We are in an


extraordinary era. Who knows whether the right will sweep across Europe?


We have crucial elections this year in France and Germany. We will get a


better idea. I think it was so badly overreach itself that we will see


people returning to the idea... The fixation we have now where people


are used to choosing things for themselves is not going to be


regarded as credible, I'm a politician and I can fix your public


services. That model in the Netflix country we now live in is no longer


viable. Self commissioning. Self pain for the NHS. Can we not going


there for the moment? That is a wider discussion. Let me keep this


discussion on the basis of the commission, who is unhappy and who


isn't. You accused Polly's side of the argument of being gloomy,


negative, putting things down. Hasn't the rise of Ukip comic indeed


even the vote for Brexit, wasn't that partly the kind of


atmosphere... Things aren't what they used to be? If we had allowed


those people, and there are those -- people take that position, if we had


allowed those people to run the referendum campaign, we would have


lost 70-30. We offered the optimistic vision which we heard


again today from Theresa May. You want to take back control. You are


saying your -- no control, take all the controls of. You won on the idea


of tighter controls. It was an authoritarian message. Not yours but


the rest of your party. That's not what we said. If your scepticism had


been that pessimistic, gloomy force, we would have been wiped out in the


1980s. The fact that we won and build a new coalition... Let's not


fight the referendum again! They said they didn't turn out in enough


numbers for you to win. Mr Trump, does that put a smile on your face?


I think I would have voted for the governor of New Mexico, the one who


didn't know where Aleppo was, because he was the best of a bad


bunch. I am a libertarian. Does Mr Trump put a smile on your face? A


wouldn't have been my choice but America has voted for him. Let's see


what happens. Do you have two... If your side is losing the argument on


so many fronts at the moment, if in practice you are losing, do you have


to wait for the other side to get in, make a mess of it and then come


back? Are you waiting on that? It's never enough. One thing you said is


absolutely right. You only ever win with an optimistic vision. You only


ever win by saying you've got your new Jerusalem, I've got mine. My due


-- my new Jerusalem is better than yours. That is the way all politics


works. You have the fear of the dismantlement of the state on one


side. People are losing services. We are seeing schools losing huge


chunks of money per people as well as patients. I don't think people


want that. I think they want a vision of something better. Things


can only get better, as someone said. Things can only end, which is


what is happening to this discussion.


Now, there's little more than 24 hours until Donald Trump takes


the presidential oath of office and assumes his role as the most


As he takes on this awesome responsibility, journalists around


the world are competing to land that exclusive interview.


Well, one such reporter who has done just that is our


Yes, he is among that elite group of hacks to have been granted some


I know what you're thinking - this is a huge scoop


Did I mention this interview was in 2014?


Last week, Donald Trump revealed he uncharacteristicically said no


Over the weekend I was offered $2 billion to do a deal


in Dubai with a very, very, very amazing man,


a great, great developer from the Middle East,


Hussain, Damac, a friend of mine, great guy.


But back in 2014, before Donald Trump was too busy to decline


lucrative business opportunities in the United Arab Emirates,


thanks to a deal with that great guy, Hussain Ali Sajwani,


the CEC of Damac, the Trump family adorned billboards advertising


an 18-hole golf course at the heart of a huge real estate


development, billed as the Beverly Hills of Dubai.


Well, Donald Trump drew us here all here to look


at what he called his "vision" on an empty piece of land


As a BBC reporter out there two-and-a-half years ago,


I was invited to film and meet the man himself,


as he played to the cameras with a 30-second journey


fashion, at the Trump-branded multi-billion pound development.


When we sat down together, I was keen find out how much


the billionaire had personally invested in Dubai, after it had


bounced back from a devastating financial crash five years earlier.


I don't talk about how much I invest but I believe in Dubai


and it's certainly something I would be very happy to invest in.


Can you give us an indication of what you are dipping your toe in,


your arm, half your body, something like that?


Well, if you think about it, I have my name at stake also,


After inaugurating this hole on this half-finished golf course


in the middle of the desert, the impressively handicapped,


soon-to-be septugenarian was so proud of his shot,


he wanted the ball framed, so he asked his aide, Larry


to search through the surrounding sand and find it.


We should get that ball Larry, and frame it.


But after all this glitz and glamour, Donald Trump was served


up a curve ball by a reporter from Vice News at


He side-stepped allegations that workers on this development


So, I thought I'd try asking about it, but I,


I'm trying to give you a very open-ended question,


about workers' rights in this region, if there was something,


a stand you would take or a vision that you'd have?


I think he has been pretty clear on that.


Let me answer a couple and we'll be done with it.


Well, it's a big issue, I'm not making this up.


I mean, this is something that everyone would want to ask


the top businessman, like yourself, this has got


to do with real estate, it is about construction.


Well, just to put it in a very short form,


I always like to see everybody treated well and I'm sure that's


happening over in Dubai because the workers are so important


to what we are doing and what everybody else


is doing and I love to see people treated well.


But one person he didn't think was treating the American


people well, back in 2014, was President Barack Obama.


We have a lack of leadership at the top and the President has not


done a good job and a lot of people are agreeing, even his own people


are agreeing that it has not worked out well for President Obama.


Looking back, perhaps this was his first pitch for the job.


The good news is we have tremendous potential and with the right leader,


this country can turn around so quickly, it will be unbelievable.


Eventually we'll get the right person.


You don't want it to go too far down.


But, eventually I think we'll get the right person and when we do,


America's next President still talks about himself in the third person.


Perhaps, in front of our very eyes, two-and-a-half years ago,


Here is mark with Donald Trump at that interview. That is Ivanka Trump


with him. Mark is not doing the films of sign, unlike some reporters


who did. No names! Proper professionalism! Donald Trump once


massive unfunded tax cuts, huge infrastructure programme, all of


which will increase the deficit normally. -- enormously. None of


that is on your agenda? I fear he is shifting from monetary stimulus to


fiscal stimulus. I personally, if I were advising and I'm not, I would


say that is unwise. The American state should live within its means.


If it doesn't do that, it will go the way of all states that have


lived beyond their means. Congress, the beauty of the American system is


the separation of powers. Congress will have a say. I suspect his


biggest obstacle will be Republican appointed judges and the Senate. We


shall see. The One O'Clock News is starting


over on BBC One now. I will be on BBC One


with Michael Portillo, Jess Phillips, Quentin Letts,


Anthony Seldon and Polish politician Radoslaw


Sikorski from 11:45. And I'll be here at noon tomorrow,


with all the big political stories of the day.


Do join me then. Parents are facing an explosion in


the number of children saying


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