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Afternoon folks and welcome to the Daily Politics.
Theresa May tells world leaders and global business chiefs
that Britain will still be "open for business" after Brexit and says
global elites must do more to respond to the anxieties
Is the EU out to administer a "punishment beating" to the UK
We speak to a leading German member of the European Parliament.
We may be living in an age of political insurgency.
But, if you're taking on the establishment,
But did we get some early hints about his political ambitions?
Eventually I think we'll get the right person and when we do, it'll
all straighten out. I wonder who he had in mind back
then? And with me for the whole
of the programme today, our very own little insurgent -
Ukip's one and only Now it's been almost 48
hours since Theresa May gave her big speech on Brexit,
so it's probably time The Prime Minister has been
addressing global political and business bigwigs gathering
for the World Economic Forum She's been keen to reassure them
that Britain will remain very much open for business
after we leave the EU. Our decision to leave
the European Union was no rejection of our friends in Europe,
with whom we share common interest So, at the heart of the plan I set
out earlier this week, is a determination to pursue a bold
and ambitious free trade agreement between the UK
and the European Union. But more than that, we seek
the freedom to strike new trade deals with old friends
and new allies, right The kind of audience there is at
Davos, it must have been a binary speech. On the one hand she's the
leader of Brexit, which they hate, on the other hand, she is a huge
supporter of globalisation and world trade, which is under threat, and
they love. Well, I hope, listening to her speech, they might be
rethinking some of their cliched group think. You know, that, that's
the second great speech we've heard from Theresa May in three days. I
think if I was asked to contribute to what she was saying, I woonted
have changed a word. I think she's Bang on the Money. -- I wouldn't
have changed a word. What are the chances of rethinking, we've had
some of the pressures up. We've heard HSBC talking about "perhaps"
which is the key word, of Retallick locating staff to Paris. And US
Goldman Sachs talking about 1,000 from London to Frankfurt. How
seriously to the take the threats? When I was working for a FTSE 100
fund manager in the when we decided not to join the euro, we heard the
same claims made and actually far from jobs being lost to London,
since then London has consolidated its position. So you don't take it
seriously? I - we heard a lot of these claims made in the run-up to
the referendum. It may than there are some businesses who feel they
are better off moving to Paris or Frankfurt but we heard this 20 years
ago when we decided not to join the euro. What will decide whether or
not the City and rest of the UK prospers, is whether or not, having
left the European Union, we make good on this vision of a liberal
Brexit, opening ourselves up to the world and not just the eurozone. If
we do that, we will prosper enormously. Did you do that do you
think they'll stay? I think so. What about Toyota? It employs 3,000
people in Britain? A lot of the people employed by corporate
lobbyists in the run-up to the referendum were dead against Brexit.
They haven't got over it but the actual business men and women, who
make the decisionses, I think will come to term with the change,
recognise liberal breaks sit good business and we'll see them chaging
their tune. But it was the Chairman of HSBC, not the corporate lobbyist,
that said, "We will move in about two years' time when Brexit
becomes... ." It is in about two years' now rather than immediately
after. Are you sceptical of the claims? I am but they know their
better than I do. Let's wait and see, I suspect in 10, 15 years'
time, the City of London will be more of a global financial hub than
it is today. What do you make of this claim, the Maltese Prime
Minister, I think he is part now of the - he is in the EU ro Tait
presidency seat for the first six months of the year and repeats this
demand or idea that Britain would have to pay a 60 billion euro exit
price. I mean t would seem to me - I don't know what really that is based
on, or whether it has any real basis but whether it has any basis or not,
I would suggest to you in a no British Prime Minister could ever
agree to that? Of course, it is a businessless claim. But what we need
to avoid doing is getting involved in a war of words between some of
the more excitable eurocrats. He is the Prime Minister. He is head of
the rotating presidency. Some of the people, they are talking about their
tax and bonuses and empire of official dom who'll resent us from
leaving. We won't rise to the debate. We are good neighbours and
Theresa May's speech was generous, making clear we want to be good
neighbours. That wasn't something we said during the referendum campaign.
A country outside the European Union, we want to cooperate. It may
not be 60 billion, unlikely to be anywhere near, that but will there
not be some price to pay as we exit? Clearly we want it leave on good
terms and we want to honour any commitments we have under
international law but we're not about to pick up a huge bill to, you
know, help some of the anti-Brexiteers in the European
system come to terms with their grief. We are going to leave in a
couple of years' time and, you know, we promise not to pursue a claim for
our share of buildings and other things that our money has funded, in
return for a good, fair, reasonable settlement. We want this to work for
both sides. We don't want it to be a bitter divorce. You have said twice
in the past couple of minute, how much you liked both of Mrs May's
speeches, so you are generally happy with the direction that she's going
in now? I'm absolutely delighted. I have been pushing all my adult life
to have a Government, a Prime Minister, committed to this agenda,
I really feel quite emotional about t actually. I think it is wonderful.
It is likely - we are waiting on the Supreme Court, I think it is 24th
January. Next Tuesday. Next Tuesday, it is going to rule. There is an be
a assumption, we don't know, but in the media and politics, we seem to
be operating on the asuchings that the Supreme Court will uphold the
challenge. Are there any parliamentary dangers for the
Article 50 process if we have to do what the Supreme Court says, and it
has to go through the parliamentary procedure? I don't think - if the
court rules that it is exclusively for Parliament to make any decision,
I don't see a danger. A worst case scenario, if you find a Parliament
that resists the referendum, you simply call a new election and make
sure you have a Parliament that agrees with the verdict of the
people. I think the danger comes from the judges get it into their
heads that it is someone other than Parliament that must make this
decision. For example, if they give the Welsh Assembly or the Scottish
Parliament or any other third party de facto veto powers, that I think
would trigger a constitutional crisis, but it is for Parliament to
decide. Even if the House of Lords decided to throw a woby, you could
call an election reand replace them. So you think it is possible in the
Lords do in some way try to block this or delay it, that could provoke
an election, too? I do, absolutely. You know, if we could leave the
European Union and make sure that those who make our laws in
Parliament live under the lawyer, that would be the icing on the cake,
wouldn't it? What about Ukip? Will Paul Nuttal will fighting the
by-election himself? We'll have a hustings tomorrow. I genuinely don't
know. We'll make the announcement on Saturday. Paul would be a superb
candidate. This is not about Ukip, fws Stoke. Stoke has had a Labour MP
from 1950, it deserves something better than that. Would he be your
choice? I think he would be superb but we're a Democratic Party and I'm
not registered to vote in that hustings. I will be supporting
whoever but Paul will be a superb candidate. He really would be a
force for Stoke. All right. We shall see.
European leaders have continued to respond
Yesterday, the President of the European Commission,
Jean Claude Juncker, struck a conciliatory tone,
saying he wanted a "fair deal" without any "hostility".
However, the Maltese Prime Minister, Joseph Muscat, said the deal should
It came as Boris Johnson, on a trip to India, took aim
at the French President, warning him not to hit
the UK with "punishment beatings, in the manner of some
You can always depend on Boris Johnson.
Joining us now from the European Parliament in Strasbourg
is the MEP Manfred Weber, the Chairman of the centre-right EPP
grouping in the European Parliament.
Welcome to the programme, Mr Weber. Are you so worried that others might
want to leave the European Union that you need to be seen to give
Britain a really bad deal? ? After the Brexit, we experienced that
Europeans via the polls that people are signalling that they understand
that how important European Union is. ... They believe in the European
Union. That's why I have no problem with this. They are ready for a fair
deal. The European Parliament is a Parliament of content. They are
ready for a fair deal but we have to discuss what fair means. You don't
think that the European mainstream political establishment, of which
you are a distinguished member, faces troubles when Wilder is ahead
in the polls in Holland and Marine Le Pen could come first in the first
round of the French elections. You don't think these are problems for
people like you? Absolutely. They are problems for all of us, I would
say because when they are winning, who want to destroy our partnership
approach. For example, to have a good straight deal, Marine Le Pen
makes a campaign against the single market because in frances the
biggest problem is the unemployment rate. So everybody has its problem.
The question is how can we solve them? Is it better to split up the
European Union and Member States or work together? That's the approach
behind and frankly speaking when I hear the words from Boris Johnson,
that is exactly what I mean, to provoke each other, to say to each
other that we don't like each other and so on, that is not the way how
we should work and Boris Johnson is behaving like a clown and is taking
away the credibility of the government. Well, Boris onson is not
hear to defend himself. ! Let's try to come back to the substance. When
you look at what is happening in Holland n France, the ongoing
Italian political and financial crisis, Mrs Merkel facing a very
tough collection coming up in September. Have you learned nothing
from the Brexit vote? Well, I have learned a lot from the Brexit vote.
For example, that nobody explained to the British people what Europe is
all B for example, when you talk about trade, Theresa May made clear
statements on trade. So what is EU? EU is the single market. The free
trade zone. That is for the whole of the European Union much that's what
the Brits wanted. It was the idea of Europe. Now you say you want to
leave the European Union. I respect the outcome of Europe, but on the
other hand you say you want a free trade agreement. So leads to the
situation that nothing will change. Do you want to leave or not leave
the single market. Mr Weber there are many countries who have free
trade agreements with the EU, the most recent Canada, which are not
members of the single market. Absolutely. So why can't Britain?
And they will never get Canada, the others will never get the same
status like EU members have inside of the European Union, of this this
free trade zone, created during the last decade, so much positive
development for all of us, for Britain, Germany all of us and that
is what some want to destroy now. I fight for t others can destroy it.
It is a normal democratic process. I'm elected and Boris Johnson is
elected. If it is so positive, why has there been mass youth
unemployment in the eurozone and it is only this year or the end of last
year that the European Union managed in GDP terms, to get back to the
size it was in 2008. Why is that so positive? Britain is 15% bigger than
2008, America, 20% bigger Fair question ache ask, why has Spain and
Ireland got rise rates. And Germany with a stable development Because
they slashed wages. In Spain they slashed wages by 20% and there is
still 40% youth unemployment in Spain. Is there a chance of an
answer or no chance? I want to answer your question. You want it
interview me and that is the background of our meeting, yeah,
that's why I want to give you a rection a. The question is the
growth. The most important question about
social welfare, all of these questions are national
responsibilities. Don't come with the question that Europe is
responsible for everything. That is the easy question. That Brussels is
always responsible. That is not true. Others have tasks to do.
Please be fair. I'm still not clear what the lesson you have learned
from the Brexit vote is, apart from business as usual. You just want to
repeat the same arguments and behave in the same way. Given all of the
political challenges that Europe faces this year, are you not
changing your behaviour in any way? No national politician has convinced
people why Europe is important. I will give you another example when
you talk about trade. I still think the Single Market is a good thing.
And another example is the fight against terror. I think we need the
European Union. That is why we work in the European Parliament on a
jihadist list, our intelligence forces are strongly working
together. That is the idea of Europe. It is about practical
things. I learned with my meeting with David Davies that Britain wants
to stay in this unity of exchange of data that is part of Europe. That's
why I have no idea what Brexit means for the moment. You want to leave,
but I learn that you want to stay in the Single Market, the fair trade
agreement, the question of exchange between universities on research in
Europe. Oxford and others want to stay. What are you leaving? What do
you want to do? Don't talk about Europe and bureaucracy and Brussels.
I'm in favour of this partnership approach. What do you say to the
Finance Minister of Italy, who has said the problem with Europe is
Europe, that people don't have faith in Europe any more? And he has to
think about himself because he is a politician who once Europe. He is
dealing with the Euro. Let's face the reality. The reality is we have
a global problem on the table. We see how big are member states are.
The nations in the European Union are competitive. We have to face the
reality that one single member state of this European Union alone cannot
compete with China and others. That is the reality. You can think in
another direction, but I think it is better to combine our forces and
fight for a common interests, both the social model of Europe, for
example, which is unique globally, to fight for these common values
together. That is what I believe in, that is what I will fight for. I am
a Democrat. If you are a Democrat, you no doubt you respect the result
on June 24. It affects EU citizens living in Britain, of which there
are about 3 million with their families. And EU citizens living in
the EU. Why not take them off the table now? Why not say that any EU
citizen in the UK has guaranteed rights indefinitely, and any UK
citizen living in the EU -- EU has guaranteed rights indefinitely? Why
not do that now? That as a starting point already. Mrs Merkel has turned
that down. At the moment nobody wants to start negotiations. The
point I am putting it to you is that when Mrs May made the offer to the
German chancellor, she turned it down. Why make these people part of
the negotiations? Please don't be surprised when Angela Merkel and
other leaders in Europe will say, first of all, please, London, give
us a triggering of Article 50. For the moment we only have speeches. We
have declarations. Formerly there is nothing on the table. That is why it
is completely fair when I asked London, please put formerly your
questions on the table. Then we can start the negotiation. If we agree
on the principle that we are not punishing Britain for leaving the
European Union, then on the other hand I would also ask, don't make
pressure on the rest of the European Union in saying you want to deliver
another economic model. I merely asked about EU citizens. But you
seem not to want to do anything at the moment. I clarified this. I'm
totally ready to respect the current situation and respect the citizens.
I only wanted to ask if we are not creating any additional aggression.
Save this pleased to Johnson, when you see him next time. I will talk
to my friends to reduce the pressure. We're ready to negotiate.
But leaving the European Union means leaving the European Union. We got
that, Mr Webber. I do many things in this world, Mr Webber, but taking
messages to Boris Johnson is not one of them. Thank you.
Now as we've been hearing, Theresa May has been addressing
the World Economic Forum in Davos this morning.
It's an annual gathering in Switzerland, where political
and business leaders discuss global issues.
But what is this exclusive event, and which masters and mistresses
of the universe are attending this year?
The Forum - as it is known - takes place every year in the alpine
The event was founded in 1971 by the German
Its stated mission? To improve the state of the world.
The theme of this year's event is Responsive
More than 2,500 politicians, business leaders and heads of state
from almost 100 countries are attending Davos.
But if you're hoping to attend next year,
Speakers at this year's Forum include US Vice President Joe Biden,
Chinese Premier Xi Jingping, and the Head of the International
David Cameron and George Osborne are also making speeches
But with the cost of attending the annual Davos shindig running
into tens of thousands of pounds, some have criticised the event
as a glorified party for the global elite.
Joining us from Davos to discuss this further is Jennifer Blanke.
She's the Chief Economist for the World Economic Forum.
Thank you for joining us. Can I just ask you one question. After the
speech by the Chinese president to Davos this year, China daily says
President G has become the general secretary of globalisation. Are you
comfortable with that? Well look, I think that everybody is looking how
to make globalisation work well. There has been a love of
disgruntlement in recent years about how the opening in various ways has
affected people. And I think that the fact that the Chinese government
wants to take a serious stand on some issues, and when you talk about
globalisation it is also about how we deal with things like climate
change, and I do believe that the Chinese economy is one of the most
important, the second most important, soon-to-be first, in the
world. It is important they take a strong stand on some of these
issues. Do I feel comfortable? It has to be a coordinated effort. We
need leaders of important countries taking stands. China joined the WTO
in 2001 and has put in face -- place market access foreign companies. Did
anybody raise that with him in Davos? I think if you think about
globalisation there are many things that combine to make a globalised
world. If you look at China, why is China pro-globalisation? Because the
country stagnated for decades until 1979. Did anybody raise these points
with him? I don't know if anybody raised that with him directly. I was
not in the room with him. However, clear these kind of things are dealt
with at the WTO. There is a mechanism. We are mapping out the
future here, not looking at the past. He was the Chinese leader
championing globalisation and free trade at Davos, and yet is presiding
over a ruthless crackdown on dissidents in China itself. The
trend, according to human rights watch, is decidedly negative. There
has in a crackdown on human rights lawyers. Did anybody in Davos raise
that with him? I don't think what we do is raise issues directly with
foreign leaders. We raise discussion points among many people about
issues that need to be raised. Human rights is very high on the agenda.
The question of democracy is very high on the agenda. Not if you
didn't raise it with him. That is not the point of Davos. It is not a
one-on-one between us and foreign leaders. It is about bringing
together business, government, civil society and academia to map out a
future. We can talk about human rights issues all we want. There are
many issues of human rights around the world. It didn't sound like you
talked about it at all. We definitely talked about it a lot. I
think we can forgive the fact that these corporate kleptocratic
get-together. We can forget they trade cliches as easily as they
traded business cards. But we can't forget that Davos creates groupthink
and it allows so-called leaders to marinade themselves in this bogus
sense of reassurance. They don't see the dangers of their wrong policies.
In 2006, shortly before the sub-prime crisis, they completely
failed to see the sub-prime crisis coming. Shortly before Lehman
Brothers went bust, the founder of the world economic Forum said the
mood from Davos was optimistic. What do you say to that? That it is
almost a self-deluding groupthink? I don't think it is a self-deluding
groupthink. Maybe two thirds of the people in Davos are from business
and government. The other third come from civil society. They come from
social entrepreneurs and academia. I agree there is a discussion about
whether we have missed out on something. Certainly the rise of
inequality is of great concern. I focus most of my time thinking about
how the process can work differently. It is easy to complain
about the situation from outside. It is harder to map out what we are
going to do going forward. We have leaders in Davos. But the people who
make decisions are the leaders. Therefore it's very important that
we sit here together. We came out with the report a few days ago. We
talked about the fact that growth is not enough. It is very important for
the process of growth to be inclusive. This resonates very well
with what Theresa May talked about today. This is something that is
high on the agenda. It may be high on the agenda but you have been
going since 1971. What has Davos done about low wages, growing
inequality? First of all it is not just growing inequality. We are
contributing to a better understanding of what has to happen.
Clearly the growth model that we had used in recent years is no longer
functioning. But what have you done? We have convened discussion leaders.
We have a global challenge initiative on the issue of inclusive
growth, where we bring together leaders, figuring out how it is we
can work together to change systems. Discussion is the first step. That
is one thing we have done. If you look at other areas we have worked
on, for example, rainforests, we are working on both trying to protect
the devastation of rainforests while increasing the productivity of
agriculture at the same time. Dealing again with the inclusiveness
of the growth process of those people who live in rainforests. I
asked about low wages and inequality. Another example is that
many of our big companies in a project they did together all
committed to hiring a large number of young people into internship
programmes. This started a few years ago. We have already touched many
thousands of young people, which is a big problem in Europe in
particular. There are commitments we follow through on. In 1971, the kind
of people at Davos and about 40 times the average wage of the people
who work for them. Today it's closer to 160 or 170 times. That's the
inequality. A lot of people will think Davos is part of the problem,
the people there are part of the problem? They pay themselves so
much, they pay their workers in real terms less and less. They are the
problem, not the solution. I don't think tts only inequality
problem in the world. The fact is that labour has not seen an increase
in wages. That's true. We came up the idea of a social context
yesterday where business leaders are committing to, you know, take
efforts to avoid this sort of inequality. But it is not just about
what CEOs earn and what the rest of the populous earns. What I'm much
more worried about is the fact that medium incomes has not gone up. The
middle class is not seeing improvement and this is' where we
are focussing and at the same time let's keep in mind poverty has
dropped massively in recent years, and this has a lot to do with a
well-regulated market-based economy. All right, let me bring Douglas
Carswell back N The The sort of corporate cleptocratss. That means
thieves. Well #24er what war web jp Haasings and the East India Company
used to be. The value of the shares lost 30% of its value, 30% of money
and yet executives running businesses awarded themselves 80%
pay increases. Corporate governance has broken down, we have capitalism
without capitalists. A final question, to you, Jenny. With the
election of Mr Trump, with the Brexit vote, with the rise of
political insurgents across Europe, this year and many elections, is
Davos past its peak, not just out of touch, it is over, really. A were
professor from Harvard once said - the conventional wisdom of Davos is
always wrong, that you are wrong so often that you are now in decline?
Well, if I go back it something you said before, about the sub-prime
crisis, I don't think anybody saw it coming. In terms of whether Davos is
fit for purpose, we've reinvented ourselves year after year to I can
at that on key issue that is really important on the global agenda. So,
do I think we are pass say, no? . Particularly because I think we are
constantly bringing new voices in, young voices from around the world
and I very much home because there is no other framework for
public-private discussion like we have, we will be fit for purpose in
the future. Thank you for joining us. We'll let you get back to the
proceedings. Representatives of the devolved
administrations have been meeting UK government ministers in Westminster
this morning, to talk about - Theresa May said in her
speech that she wanted the governments of Scotland,
Wales and Northern Ireland to be But the SNP have said this week
that the UK government's policy to leave the single market makes
a second independence Mike Russell, the Scottish
government's spokesman on Brexit, spoke to the BBC on his
way into the meeting. We were meant to be
involved in decisions, I think there will be a general view
that that breached the process What do you expect to come
out of this meeting? Well, I'm hopeful we'll take forward
the options in the paper that we've submitted,
and particularly the options of Scotland remaining a member
of the single market, They have been well-supported
across the board and I'll be We take the Scottish Government's
proposal seriously. We'll have a discussion
about them today. We're going to be involved over
a period of time in these discussions and I'm meeting
Mr Russell again next So let's see what he has to say
at today's presentation. I've said I'm open-minded
on a whole range of issues but the Scottish Government has
to come forward with an evidence Joining me now is Joanna Cherry,
the SNP's Westminster spokesperson Welcome to the programme. Mike
Russell who we just heard there, says, implied that the EU single
market is more important than the UK single market. Why is that? Well, I
think they are both more important to Scotland. It's a little-known
fact this, but England, Scotland is actually England's biggest export
destination. So, our aim is to remain part of the EU single market,
and the UK single market. Why would the EU single market, as Mr Mr
Russell's mind, be more important than the UK single market? I think
what Mike is getting at is the fact that for us at the moment the growth
market is the EU. Scotland's exports to the EU are growing. How much do
they send to the EU? I cannot give the precise igs F I can, ?12
billion. Just under, 11.6. How much do you export to the rest of the UK?
Last year we expected about ?46 billion and the rest of the UK
exported into Scotland about ?52 billion. You will see Scotland is
actually a bigger export market for the rest of the UK. What's important
about that. No, hold on. You just admitted, the actual figure last
year was ?48.5 billion. I'm taking the most recent. Well the most
recent ones are coming out today, this week, I have not seen them.
?48.5 million to the rest of the UK, verses ?12 billion to the rest of
the EU. Your exports to the rest of the UK are four times your exports
to the EU. In what way account EU single market be more important than
the UK single market? It is our growth market. It is four timing
bigger the UK You are pos itting this question to me as though we had
to make a choice between the UK and EU single market. David Davis went
to Ireland and spoke to businessmen and women in Dublin and he said that
the Republic of Ireland will not need to choose after Brexit between
its commitment to the UK and its commitment to the EU. We believe
that if Scotland stays in the single market and the rest of the UK does
not, then Scotland will not and should not have to choose between
its commitment to the EU and the rest rest of the UK as trading
markets and my point in saying this to you, awe weren't far off on
figures I said ?4646 billion from Scotland to -- ?46 billion to
Scotland. My point is, that Scotland is Britain's biggest export mark it
would be a kamikaze action to create a hard border between Scotland and
England. We're not interested in that, we're interested in respecting
the wish of the Scottish people to remain in the EU. I heard you
talking about a veto earlier. We are not interested in that. We believe
that the wishes of the rest of the UK, England and Wales, not Northern
Ireland, to leave the EU, must be respected, in the same way that the
wish of the Scots to Remain should be the ared. That's why we've put
forward in compromise proposal that my colleague, Mike Russell is
current willy discussing in the joint ministerial committee. Now
that compromise, you will see, Andrew, you will know that we
suggested that the whole of the UK could remain in the single market.
That has been ruled out Theresa May ruled that out on Tuesday in her
speech. One might question her motives. It is ruled out. Our
fallback position was Scotland should remain in the single market.
The Spanish have said that's not going to happen Well, the Spanish
may have said it is not going to happen but the Spanish like the rest
of us are going into a negotiation. We heard Theresa May specifically
talk about the wishes of the Spanish fishermen to have access to the
fisheries around the UK, so people might state what their ideal
position is, in any negotiation, but there is room for give and take.
Well, the so Secretary of State for Europe in Spain. There is only one
negotiator, that's the UK Government - if the UK leaves the single
market, the whole of the UK leaves the single market. That's one voice
out of 27 others. You need all 27. It is a strong one. That is why I
and my colleagues have been travelling around the European
Union, since the Brexit vote speaking to other Member States.
Let's look at the Spanish situation in particular. On the fringes of
Spain we have Gibraltar. It is in a slightly an op louse position. It
voted overwhelmingly to remain part of the European Union. Gibraltar is
in the EU but not the customs union. The Channel Islands are in the
customs union but not until the EU. There is existing scope and
precedent for differential arrangements. Now we are are in
completely unchartered territory. No member state has voted to leave the
EU. So it is unchartered. Equally the proposals which the Scottish
Government have put forward are unchartered Terry. Hold on a minute
your proposal, basically proposed the devolution of almost everything
to the Scottish Parliament -- immigration, separate business
regime. Corporation tax. Everything. It's basically a blueprint for
independence. The British Government is not going to agree to that. Well,
let's see what the British Government... You would need a hard
border if you had that. Your own immigration. No, David Davis has
told us when Britain leaves the European Union and the Republic of
Ireland remains a member there will be no hard border between the north
and South. The Republic of Ireland is not a member of shengin. You
would be a new member, that may be a price you have to pay It is a member
of the common travel area, which has been in existence before the
European Union and which Scotland has been a member of since way
before the European Union, so what we are looking for here, in our
compromised proposals is a compromise in the situation... It is
not a compromise, it is a demand for independence by the back door. It is
not, Andrew. Well, one of the people sitting on the council, Sir Charles
Grant who was involved in this process you went through, said that
these plans are not legally, politically or technically feasible.
Equally, David Edwards, my former tutor and distinguished former judge
at the European Court of Justice, who sits on the panel, has said that
the proposals should be looked at seriously. Now that's one of the
finest legal brains in Scotland. Let me bring in Douglas Carswell in.
Scotland didn't vote to leave the European Union. It's now having to
leave the European Union, and the single market. You can understand
why they are upset? Well, I suspect that some in the SNP would see any
event as a pretext to call for a second referendum. But, I think it's
important to remember that more people in Scotland voted to stay in
the UK, just over 2 million, than voted to remain in the EU. We made
the decision as a United Kingdom, on our EU membership, and, you know, my
side won that... They were promised if they voted... I'm sorry, there
was a referendum. I feel for you. It was promised to us in Scotland if we
voted to remain part of the UK, we will remain part of the EU. That
promise has broken. Circumstances have changed. Indeed it has, it was
a very important point. It was said the way to vote to stay in the EU
was to vote for Scotland to stay in the UK. A quick question for you. In
the current timetable Britain is scheduled to leave the EU in March
2019. Will there be a referendum on Scottish independence before then?
Whether or not there will be a referendum depends on the British
Government's suppose response to our proposals and that's what is under
discussion in the jount ministerial committee this morning. We do not
know. We do not know but if they ditch the proposals and dent look at
them seriously, it is likely there will be another independence
referendum. Before March 2019. The First Minister said it will not be
this year We'll see how the timetable unfolds thereafter. That
would only believe 2018 Now, we like to ask the big
Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the world?
Our guest of the day, Douglas Carswell, says he's very
But, he argues, most mainstream politicians have a pessimistic view,
and that is bad news for us and for our society.
# You've got to accentuate the positive
When we think of politics, we often place politicians
and their policies on a spectrum between left and right but the real
divide in politics today isn't between left and right.
# Just when everything looked so dark...#
Do you, like me, believe that the world is looking up,
that the human condition, however imperfect,
Do you believe that modernity, particularly in its Western
form is a corruption of the human condition?
This difference in our attitude towards the past
Because if you believe we've come down, you invite people to impose
a blueprint as the solution and that's been the pretext of every
If, instead, you recognise that the world has been getting
better, you are half way to accepting the liberal idea
of a self-organising society, with no need for grand plans and no
Guess which way of looking at things most politicians prefer?
The one that puts them centre stage, obviously.
# You've got to spread joy (up to the maximum)
# Bring gloom (down to the minimum)...#
Liberals have lost sight of the idea of a self-organising society,
Which is why they side with those supernational
agencies, and organisations, who want to organisation
Too many self-styled progressives fail to appreciate quite how much
Living standards are at a record high.
Income and equality is lower today in Britain
Violent crime is almost half what it was in the 1990s
and my favourite, a moving car in Britain today emits less
pollution than a stationary one did in the 1970s.
No wonder progressive Liberalism is in such a funk.
Cheer up, the world really is getting better.
And to discuss this further we're joined by Guardian
Are you in a progressive funk? No, not at all! Is an odd day as Donald
Trump is getting inaugurated tomorrow. Douglas is a great
politician because he is a great -- freethinker in wild terms. He has
got his head in the clouds. He is a kind of right wing anarchist. You
believe in no government, self organising. Where does that get us?
I think I believe that what we do collectively together is better than
anything we do as individuals on our own. I look at how this government
has, in the last six years, dismantled huge part of government.
You look at the NHS beginning to fall apart, something we were
proudest of. Environmental health officers no longer really check on
most restaurants. Things that we expect as a fundamental part of
civilised society are being stripped away. Let's get a dialogue. Respond
to that? When I was growing up, the right always seemed to be the doom
mongers. They were represented by old buffers. The left were the
people who wanted to build the new Jerusalem. I can't help thinking
that the reason the left is in such an existential crisis is precisely
because it sees change and improvement as some sort of decline.
And I think Polly has illustrated that rather neatly. All of the
change and improvements, grow from the left. They have brought us the
things we must admire and value. What we do together as a society is
what makes civilisation. You are against planning. When the left
believed in an organised society, when they were truly liberal, they
achieved huge change in the 19th century. But the liberal left has
lost sight of the idea of humans as their own agents. It believes in
blueprints. Whether that is socialism, environmentalism... They
like to tell the rest of us what to do. You are one of the most
ideological people, in an interesting way, in the House of
Commons. You have a neoliberalism. We're not here to talk about your
iss! We are here to look at your proposition that Mike is proposition
that the left is in a funk because it is not going your way. Mr Trump
is about to be inaugurated. The government in this country may be as
bad as you say. It is also 17 points ahead in the polls. The French
Socialist party is about to be wiped out. The Greek Socialist party has
already been wiped out. That is why you are in a funk. I'm not in a funk
but it is true, the ride is winning everywhere. We are in an
extraordinary era. Who knows whether the right will sweep across Europe?
We have crucial elections this year in France and Germany. We will get a
better idea. I think it was so badly overreach itself that we will see
people returning to the idea... The fixation we have now where people
are used to choosing things for themselves is not going to be
regarded as credible, I'm a politician and I can fix your public
services. That model in the Netflix country we now live in is no longer
viable. Self commissioning. Self pain for the NHS. Can we not going
there for the moment? That is a wider discussion. Let me keep this
discussion on the basis of the commission, who is unhappy and who
isn't. You accused Polly's side of the argument of being gloomy,
negative, putting things down. Hasn't the rise of Ukip comic indeed
even the vote for Brexit, wasn't that partly the kind of
atmosphere... Things aren't what they used to be? If we had allowed
those people, and there are those -- people take that position, if we had
allowed those people to run the referendum campaign, we would have
lost 70-30. We offered the optimistic vision which we heard
again today from Theresa May. You want to take back control. You are
saying your -- no control, take all the controls of. You won on the idea
of tighter controls. It was an authoritarian message. Not yours but
the rest of your party. That's not what we said. If your scepticism had
been that pessimistic, gloomy force, we would have been wiped out in the
1980s. The fact that we won and build a new coalition... Let's not
fight the referendum again! They said they didn't turn out in enough
numbers for you to win. Mr Trump, does that put a smile on your face?
I think I would have voted for the governor of New Mexico, the one who
didn't know where Aleppo was, because he was the best of a bad
bunch. I am a libertarian. Does Mr Trump put a smile on your face? A
wouldn't have been my choice but America has voted for him. Let's see
what happens. Do you have two... If your side is losing the argument on
so many fronts at the moment, if in practice you are losing, do you have
to wait for the other side to get in, make a mess of it and then come
back? Are you waiting on that? It's never enough. One thing you said is
absolutely right. You only ever win with an optimistic vision. You only
ever win by saying you've got your new Jerusalem, I've got mine. My due
-- my new Jerusalem is better than yours. That is the way all politics
works. You have the fear of the dismantlement of the state on one
side. People are losing services. We are seeing schools losing huge
chunks of money per people as well as patients. I don't think people
want that. I think they want a vision of something better. Things
can only get better, as someone said. Things can only end, which is
what is happening to this discussion.
Now, there's little more than 24 hours until Donald Trump takes
the presidential oath of office and assumes his role as the most
As he takes on this awesome responsibility, journalists around
the world are competing to land that exclusive interview.
Well, one such reporter who has done just that is our
Yes, he is among that elite group of hacks to have been granted some
I know what you're thinking - this is a huge scoop
Did I mention this interview was in 2014?
Last week, Donald Trump revealed he uncharacteristicically said no
Over the weekend I was offered $2 billion to do a deal
in Dubai with a very, very, very amazing man,
a great, great developer from the Middle East,
Hussain, Damac, a friend of mine, great guy.
But back in 2014, before Donald Trump was too busy to decline
lucrative business opportunities in the United Arab Emirates,
thanks to a deal with that great guy, Hussain Ali Sajwani,
the CEC of Damac, the Trump family adorned billboards advertising
an 18-hole golf course at the heart of a huge real estate
development, billed as the Beverly Hills of Dubai.
Well, Donald Trump drew us here all here to look
at what he called his "vision" on an empty piece of land
As a BBC reporter out there two-and-a-half years ago,
I was invited to film and meet the man himself,
as he played to the cameras with a 30-second journey
fashion, at the Trump-branded multi-billion pound development.
When we sat down together, I was keen find out how much
the billionaire had personally invested in Dubai, after it had
bounced back from a devastating financial crash five years earlier.
I don't talk about how much I invest but I believe in Dubai
and it's certainly something I would be very happy to invest in.
Can you give us an indication of what you are dipping your toe in,
your arm, half your body, something like that?
Well, if you think about it, I have my name at stake also,
After inaugurating this hole on this half-finished golf course
in the middle of the desert, the impressively handicapped,
soon-to-be septugenarian was so proud of his shot,
he wanted the ball framed, so he asked his aide, Larry
to search through the surrounding sand and find it.
We should get that ball Larry, and frame it.
But after all this glitz and glamour, Donald Trump was served
up a curve ball by a reporter from Vice News at
He side-stepped allegations that workers on this development
So, I thought I'd try asking about it, but I,
I'm trying to give you a very open-ended question,
about workers' rights in this region, if there was something,
a stand you would take or a vision that you'd have?
I think he has been pretty clear on that.
Let me answer a couple and we'll be done with it.
Well, it's a big issue, I'm not making this up.
I mean, this is something that everyone would want to ask
the top businessman, like yourself, this has got
to do with real estate, it is about construction.
Well, just to put it in a very short form,
I always like to see everybody treated well and I'm sure that's
happening over in Dubai because the workers are so important
to what we are doing and what everybody else
is doing and I love to see people treated well.
But one person he didn't think was treating the American
people well, back in 2014, was President Barack Obama.
We have a lack of leadership at the top and the President has not
done a good job and a lot of people are agreeing, even his own people
are agreeing that it has not worked out well for President Obama.
Looking back, perhaps this was his first pitch for the job.
The good news is we have tremendous potential and with the right leader,
this country can turn around so quickly, it will be unbelievable.
Eventually we'll get the right person.
You don't want it to go too far down.
But, eventually I think we'll get the right person and when we do,
America's next President still talks about himself in the third person.
Perhaps, in front of our very eyes, two-and-a-half years ago,
Here is mark with Donald Trump at that interview. That is Ivanka Trump
with him. Mark is not doing the films of sign, unlike some reporters
who did. No names! Proper professionalism! Donald Trump once
massive unfunded tax cuts, huge infrastructure programme, all of
which will increase the deficit normally. -- enormously. None of
that is on your agenda? I fear he is shifting from monetary stimulus to
fiscal stimulus. I personally, if I were advising and I'm not, I would
say that is unwise. The American state should live within its means.
If it doesn't do that, it will go the way of all states that have
lived beyond their means. Congress, the beauty of the American system is
the separation of powers. Congress will have a say. I suspect his
biggest obstacle will be Republican appointed judges and the Senate. We
shall see. The One O'Clock News is starting
over on BBC One now. I will be on BBC One
with Michael Portillo, Jess Phillips, Quentin Letts,
Anthony Seldon and Polish politician Radoslaw
Sikorski from 11:45. And I'll be here at noon tomorrow,
with all the big political stories of the day.
Do join me then. Parents are facing an explosion in
the number of children saying