21/02/2017 Daily Politics


21/02/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by columnist Owen Jones to discuss proposals to cut hospital services across England and the House of Lords debate on the Brexit Bill.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Two thirds of the plans to re-configure NHS services

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in England involve cuts to hospital services -

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but are they "the best hope of delivering essential reforms"?

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Other left wing leaders are available.

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Is Jeremy Corbyn no longer the only hope for the Labour left?

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A record number of peers sign up to have their say on Brexit -

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but guess who was there to cast her beady eye

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And have peers been a little too candid to camera

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in a BBC documentary about the upper house?

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There are, sad to say, many, many peers who contribute absolutely

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nothing but claim the full allowance.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme today, Jeremy Corbyn ally

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the Labour commentator and columnist, Owen Jones.

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Two-thirds of the plans to change the way the NHS delivers services

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in England involve a cut to hospital services,

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The proposals have been made by local NHS bosses as part

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of a national programme to transform the health service and save money.

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44 local plans have been drawn up across England and include

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everything from full closures of hospitals to cutting some

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specialist services such as Accident Emergency and stroke care.

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Ministers argue patients will receive better

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Bringing community services together into "super" hubs

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to include GP, council-run care and district nursing.

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Getting GPs working together in federations to improve access

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And asking hospital specialists to work in community clinics

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to bring expert care closer to people's homes.

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The think tank the King's Fund says the proposals offer the

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"best hope of delivering essential reforms" in the NHS,

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as care needs to be moved out of hospital.

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But warned this could not be done without extra funding

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because there weren't enough services outside of hospitals

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and community services were already "feeling the strain"

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and couldn't cope with an increase in workload.

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Here's the chief executive of the King's Fund, Chris Ham.

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Our biggest worry is the plans that proposed to cut back the number of

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hospital beds simply aren't credible when our hospitals are so

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overcrowded during this winter, it's not going to be feasible to deliver

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that ambition. The emphasis must be on the out of hospital services,

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district nursing, general practice, social care, and making them much

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more effective to help people stay at home when that is the right thing

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to do. Joining is now Dixon, the chief

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executive of the NHS Federation which represents the commissioners

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and providers of those who have drawn of the plans. The analysis you

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have seen show services will be scaled back in two thirds of areas,

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so you can see why people would think the plans you are putting

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forward are a euphemism for cuts? Yes, you could say that but I don't

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think that is the case. What you are finding is a set of organisations

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that, as Chris Ham has just pointed out, are under enormous pressure, so

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there is pressure in terms of trying to make the books balance and that

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is a question that needs to be taken back to Government because I think

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the system is now in a more typical position than it was when the plans

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were first started. -- difficult position. But I don't think we

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should confuse that with the need to reform. There is a need for reform

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both to provide better services but also to cope with a very large

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number of elderly people who are suffering from a number of different

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conditions who are now overloading the most critical part of the system

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in terms of the hospital services, because there is inadequate services

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in the community. So changing that around and joining up those services

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is could not an optional extra, it has to be done. And if we carry on

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that thread, The King's Fund says these plans are still the best hope

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of delivering essential reforms in the NHS. Without those essential

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reforms and because they haven't happened in the past, we are in the

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position we are in today. This isn't a euphemism for cuts, these are

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cuts. Two thirds involving closures or moving services. Does that make

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it a worse service? Of course it does. What we see in local

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authorities are the devolving of cuts from Government and local

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authorities. In social care? Exactly. They introduced the

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principle of competition in the very core services, privatisation,

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marketisation. We have had the longest squeeze in funding on the

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NHS as a proportion of our economy since it was founded. Cuts to social

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care at an increasing time of ageing population. So these cuts in

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practice will be devolving cuts and as we have heard from the Red Cross,

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the consequences of that has been a humanitarian crisis in the NHS and

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that is Government policy. Is that what you are going to do, as head of

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an SDP plan, devolve those cuts and give them to somebody else to enact

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and they are just cuts? Now I think they are the ones making the

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decision and we use these letters as if it is something, it is actually

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the chief executives of all the organisations that are local, the

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local authority, the health trust, the community and bringing in the

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GPs, working together in a co-ordinated way for the first time,

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so I don't think we should bogey the STPss and I'm not suggesting Owen is

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doing that. He is right that the NHS and social care have had a bad

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period in terms of funding and we are starting to see the effect of

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that. The danger is that that then either slows down or harms the work

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the STPs are doing, but we shouldn't say that every time something has

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changed in the NHS, it means a cut. It can mean a better provided

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service. Isn't that the point, you are always flagging up, and some

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extent of the Labour Party, that this hospital is going to close this

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service, therefore it is leading to privatisation and cuts across the

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service, nothing must change, whereas there are clear examples of

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where you do close services and concentrate stroke services, for

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example, in a few hospitals, more extras, the outcome is better. The

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problem is when reform is a euphemism for privatisation. It

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doesn't mean people like myself oppose reform. How'd you get it

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through politically if you forever flagged up cuts and closures as bad?

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What we see with privatisation is bureaucracy, to manage the different

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contracts, you need more managers, which is a waste of public money but

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in terms of what we are talking about here, the NHS has been plunged

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into an humanitarian crisis as the Red Cross says and when we saw at

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the last General Election, the Conservatives promised no more

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top-down reorganisations, which they did and it is ironic what they are

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doing now, they are arguing against increased competition, which is what

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they did a few years ago, with another series of reforms, which is

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devolving cuts to these STPs. Do you see it as a humanitarian crisis

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within the NHS? I think it is a tragedy where we have a situation

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for example where 2 million elderly people are not getting any form of

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social care and the consequence of that is the kind of pressures we are

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talking about in hospitals. But I think it is the job of my members to

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manage the amount of money they are given and try and provide the best

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possible services and I think that is what STPs and others are trying

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to do. But I do think it will take more time, as The King's Fund

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reports suggests, and it is important that before you reduce or

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change a service at one level, you have to make sure the appropriate

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service is in the Other Place. The STPs, what they are supposed to do

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in part is administered a ?20 billion efficiency savings, or 22,

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even, which the NHS is expected to administer. In practice, those

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savings are a euphemism for cuts which will be detrimental to

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services in the NHS. That is an assumption that all ?22 billion is

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simply a cut. But they are efficiency savings. Any

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organisation, in the private or public sector, does cost efficiency

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programmes, it is part of running an organisation. But if that means

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moving beds, closing beds, in any of these plans, how can that be a good

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thing when you have said yourself the strain on the services and

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hospitals and the BMA says the NHS is at breaking point? That is saving

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that surely can't afford? The question is that whether in an

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individual set of organisations you can build a community services to

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start reducing, and we are starting to see that. This would be closing

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beds before they build services up. You shouldn't do that, you have to

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devise new ways of organising the services, change the way we organise

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services in the Trinity in order to be able to do that. In each

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individual medical specialty, you can look at the best pathways for

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those patients. The reality is that across the country, it is variable,

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some countries have it much more efficiently run and we need to move

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towards that. At the moment we have what is not a national Health

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Service at the moment, and national disease service, dealing with the

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symptoms rather than focusing on prevention. If we did more on

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prevention, we would save the NHS more money and that is reform we

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should talk about but not closing beds, losing staff, losing

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hospitals. And that is part of these plans. Prevention is absolutely at

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the centre of this and it is not just the primary prevention of doing

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more exercise and so on, it is also about how do you manage an elderly

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person who has got a series of different conditions in the

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community, so they are not going in and out of hospital? Some of them

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are going in and out on a regular basis which puts huge pressure on a

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hospital, very bad for the elderly people and bad for the NHS's bank

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account. If we can do it more effectively, we can do it in the

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community. Thank you. There will be some bleary eyes over

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the road in the House Peers were up debating past midnight

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last night on the bill that will enable Theresa May to trigger

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Article 50, which begins the process of the UK's withdrawal

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from the European Union. And in almost unprecedented scenes,

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the Prime Minister was keeping a beady eye on the unelected Lords,

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sitting in on the steps below Here's a taste of

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those proceedings. We will not be threatened into not

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fulfilling our normal constitutional role. And neither will we be goaded

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into acting irresponsibly. If we asked the House of Commons to look

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again at an issue, it is not a constitutional outrage but a

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constitutional responsibility. We will not have the same trade. We

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will not have the equal benefits. To say otherwise, my Lords, is a fraud

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on the public. For many others, the approach being adopted by the

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Government is little short of disastrous. For those of us, and

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there are very many in your lordship's has, for whom Europe has

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been a central theme of our entire political lies, the circumstances

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are both unthinkable and unconscionable. I voted to remain in

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the European Union, but I support this bill because I believe the

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referendum was decisive. As soon as it is clear that sadly, Al European

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Union partners won't accept our offer, we should move on. There is

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nothing to be gained by protracted and doomed negotiations.

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Proceedings in the Lords yesterday and you can watch today's debate

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live from 2.30 today by pressing the red button.

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We're joined now by Conservative Peer and former Chancellor -

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who you saw just there - Nigel Lawson.

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Welcome to the Daily Politics. Lord Mandelson, as you would have heard,

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says he respects the vote in the Commons but hopes the House of Lords

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doesn't throw in the tal too early, he just wants the Lords to guarantee

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EU nationals' rides and for Parliament to have a final say on

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the Brexit deal. Do you believe him? No, I think he is still in the Tony

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Blair camp are trying to get the whole thing reversed, but nobody

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takes it seriously. They don't? What about some of your colleagues

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question what would there be sympathy for that viewpoint amongst

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peers? I have come out clearly all along the line that we should give a

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unilateral guarantee to those European Union citizens who were

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legally resident here at the time of the referendum. But this is not the

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place for it. And indeed, I think this is what will happen, the Home

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Secretary has already given an undertaking to the Commons that

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there will be no question of having them removed without a vote in the

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House of Commons and that would not pass the House of Commons, so it's

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not going to happen, but the point is that it is not what this bill is

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about. This bill is about the mechanics of triggering Article 50.

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Do you agree with that? My worry about EU nationals, yesterday, One

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Day Without Us, which focused on the contributions by migrants to our

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economy, if you look at people who voted remain or leave,

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overwhelmingly, they support safeguarding the rights of EU

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nationals. We are divided as a nation over the referendum result

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but United there and using those people as bargaining chips, who keep

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our economy running, I find disturbing. It has left a huge chunk

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of our fellow citizens, neighbours, friends, lovers, people who look

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after us, people about their future. I think that it was a mistake that I

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understand why initially, although I think the Government is elegantly

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backing off from this now, but I think the reason why they took a bad

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position, why Theresa May took it up initially, is that she was concerned

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about the position of British national is resident in the European

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Union who are anxious, I think wrongly anxious. My home is in

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France and I am not in the slightest bit

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But it comes back to the original point. Do you think there are a

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large number of peers who think it is a mistake for UK to leave the

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European Union who really want to frustrate Brexit? There is no real

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risk in your mind as far as that is concerned? What do you think about

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the none too subtle threats from the government to abolish the upper

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chamber if the peers were to put up too much of a fight. I'm not aware

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that that is a position at all. Ministers were quoted that even in

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the Cabinet it was said. They were not named. That is pressure rubbish.

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-- press rubbish. There is no one who would like to Sydney Opera House

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abolished if there was too much -- the upper house abolished? Angela

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Smith is the leader of the Labour opposition and she is very good and

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I have time for her and she has made it clear that even though she would

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like to see one or two members move, and the House of Commons say no

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thank you, that will be the end of it. I am worried about this. I'm not

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sympathetic to an unelected House of Lords but I wouldn't want to

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abolished without replacement. Do you think the threats are real?

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Regardless of whether the threat is real or not, the fact it's leaked is

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disturbing. This government, when it comes to electoral boundaries and in

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terms of party funding its done things that are authoritarian. You

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mustn't take this nonsense seriously. It had to come from

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somewhere? It was Cabinet ministers who were quoted, but not names. If

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you don't have a name you cannot believe it. There is no question the

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referendum result has to be respected. But the debate has to be

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what sort of deal. During the referendum we were told we were

:17:25.:17:27.

really gaining parliamentary sovereignty as part of that, there

:17:28.:17:33.

has to be screwed to the -- scrutiny of that. That's not frustrating the

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referendum result, it is frustrating that. -- respecting that. If there

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was no threat to the upper house, why did Theresa May, and it's pretty

:17:45.:17:49.

unprecedented, why did she come in and sit and glare at the peers? She

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was not glaring. That is what you think. She was demonstrating that

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she takes the House of Lords seriously. Is that what it was? Were

:17:59.:18:03.

you pleased to see her there? Delighted. What do you say about

:18:04.:18:09.

your Tory colleague wrote that if the peers applied the brakes to

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Brexit they would be doing their job. She's silly. Why? It's Owen. I

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often forget my name. As Owen said, the people have spoken, the House of

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Commons has accepted this by an overwhelming majority and 41

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eccentric peer to complain about it is neither here nor there. One of

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the other threats to the unelected Lords may not be to do with Brexit

:18:54.:18:57.

might be more to do with the way they behave in terms of claiming

:18:58.:19:01.

their allowances for the day. Let's have a look at the former Lords

:19:02.:19:06.

speaker who had this to say. There is a core of peers who work

:19:07.:19:13.

incredibly hard, who do that work and there are, sad to say, many,

:19:14.:19:19.

many, many peers who contribute absolutely nothing. But they claim

:19:20.:19:23.

the full allowance. I can remember one occasion when I was leaving the

:19:24.:19:28.

house quite late and there was a peer, who will be nameless, who

:19:29.:19:35.

jumped out of the taxi and left the engine running, ran in, presumably

:19:36.:19:38.

to show he had attended and then ran out again while the taxi was still

:19:39.:19:44.

running. What do you say to that? Well, you shouldn't do that, but I

:19:45.:19:47.

think that's the exception. If we look at this debate there was a

:19:48.:19:52.

packed chamber through yesterday and there has been today and they are

:19:53.:19:57.

still debating today. About 190 speakers. Indeed, we are the

:19:58.:20:04.

cheapest chamber in any democracy in the world. There are maybe one or

:20:05.:20:08.

two people who abuse it. She said there were a lot. She gave the

:20:09.:20:12.

particular example about the taxi running, but in terms of people

:20:13.:20:15.

coming in to claim the daily allowance, which is ?300 per day. I

:20:16.:20:21.

don't know. In my case, because I live overseas, it actually costs me

:20:22.:20:25.

money because I can't claim a travel allowance from overseas. Has she

:20:26.:20:31.

been a bit too candid? I think the people deserve to know how money is

:20:32.:20:35.

spent on their behalf. The House of Lords is partly packed with cronies

:20:36.:20:39.

political leaders, people who donated large sums to political

:20:40.:20:43.

parties and lots of people who are not there to do the job they are

:20:44.:20:47.

meant to. I am very fond of you despite our severe political

:20:48.:20:53.

differences. That is why we need to abolish it or replace it with an

:20:54.:20:56.

elected second chamber where people are there to do the job and not do

:20:57.:21:01.

other jobs, or have a single chamber with boosted checks and balances.

:21:02.:21:06.

This is an embarrassment to lots of people in the country and it's not

:21:07.:21:08.

how a democracy should function. Do you think she was too honest? No,

:21:09.:21:13.

she's entitled to have you. I don't know numbers. But on the whole, the

:21:14.:21:20.

great majority of peers take the place very seriously. They put in

:21:21.:21:26.

the hours? They put in the hours and they take part in the committees

:21:27.:21:29.

which is an excellent part of the House of Lords and the total cost is

:21:30.:21:35.

amazingly small for a fully functioning democratic chamber.

:21:36.:21:36.

Thank you very much. Now, our guest of the day,

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Owen Jones, comes fresh from organising a protest outside

:21:41.:21:42.

Parliament last night. Two causes were being

:21:43.:21:44.

championed by the thousands of protestors in Parliament

:21:45.:21:46.

Square last night. celebrated the contribution

:21:47.:21:48.

of migrants in the UK and coincided with a protest against

:21:49.:21:53.

Donald Trump's Inside Parliament's

:21:54.:21:55.

Westminster Hall chamber, MPs were holding a debate responding

:21:56.:22:03.

to rival public petitions "Pimping out the Queen

:22:04.:22:05.

for the Donald Trump." This apparently is what they meant

:22:06.:22:17.

by getting our sovereignty back, Mr Walker, I don't think it's

:22:18.:22:21.

in order to refer to pimping out some however distinguished

:22:22.:22:28.

journalist. We can refer to all the things

:22:29.:22:32.

about Donald Trump, as people have, even though

:22:33.:22:35.

he's democratically elected. Can you roll out the red carpet for

:22:36.:23:02.

that. He has insulted the LG BT community and branded Mexicans as

:23:03.:23:07.

rapists and murderers. Let's look at the comments, the charge of

:23:08.:23:10.

misogyny, what he is reported to have said in a private conversation

:23:11.:23:13.

is horrible and ridiculous, but which one of us has not made some

:23:14.:23:18.

ridiculous sexual comment at some time in our past?

:23:19.:23:25.

We're joined now by the Conservative MP Nigel Evans,

:23:26.:23:27.

It's slightly different. Just leave it there. Keeping it easy for you

:23:28.:23:42.

today. I don't know who the third person will be, Nigel. You never

:23:43.:23:46.

know. You accused MPs of double standards with Donald Trump but

:23:47.:23:49.

isn't it the case that many who oppose his visits were standing up

:23:50.:23:55.

to the values they genuinely believe him -- in? Where were they when the

:23:56.:23:59.

Chinese primaries came. I don't expect everything to be endorsed by

:24:00.:24:05.

everyone from every country and if it was the rule of a Gulf state that

:24:06.:24:10.

was important to us. You could oppose those as well? I don't

:24:11.:24:16.

remember having a Parliamentary debate about Xi Jinping coming or

:24:17.:24:20.

any middle East leader either. What I accuse of his double standards as

:24:21.:24:24.

far as that is concerned, and also sneering. Whenever anybody talks

:24:25.:24:27.

about Donald Trump they incredibly difficult to get to come to terms

:24:28.:24:33.

with the faculty is President of the United States. You only have to look

:24:34.:24:37.

at that piece on Newsnight when you had George Clooney and a few others

:24:38.:24:40.

laughing when they mentioned his name and he would never become

:24:41.:24:43.

president, and the fact is he is an sneering will not help. It is an

:24:44.:24:47.

arrogance. He is democratically elected, get over it. So that's how

:24:48.:24:53.

democracy works question what the other side becomes silent. You

:24:54.:24:57.

wouldn't have the official position scrutinising. That's not opposing

:24:58.:25:02.

the position of coming over for a state visit? That's a state visit, a

:25:03.:25:07.

huge honour like other presidents never received. No president at the

:25:08.:25:10.

outset has been given a state visit like this, and this is the most

:25:11.:25:15.

obnoxious menacing president that the US has had in modern times. Are

:25:16.:25:21.

you condemning the American people when you say that? 63 million voted

:25:22.:25:30.

for Donald Trump and it is the fact that people like yourself and Tony

:25:31.:25:34.

Blair and others. I'm often lumped together with Tony Blair. You can't

:25:35.:25:41.

come to terms with the fact that middle America, the people you felt

:25:42.:25:45.

dispossessed and felt they were not listen to... Why should he have a

:25:46.:25:49.

state visit? I was talking the somebody another day it is not to

:25:50.:25:52.

say thank you for what you've done over the last seven days, and it's

:25:53.:25:56.

the fact that he received Theresa May as the first world leader and he

:25:57.:25:59.

put the bust of Winston Churchill straight back into the Oval Office

:26:00.:26:02.

and said we were now in the front of a trade cube. Barack Obama said we

:26:03.:26:08.

were at the back. Barack Obama said we were at the back of the trade

:26:09.:26:12.

cube. What has it actually achieved? They will not change anything. They

:26:13.:26:18.

are putting pressure on their own government. When people marched

:26:19.:26:24.

against the Iraqi war, 2 million... The war still happen. Public opinion

:26:25.:26:28.

at the time were supportive of Iraq and not many people admit it. If you

:26:29.:26:32.

look at all of the polling, where the vote Conservative, for Labour,

:26:33.:26:37.

the Lib Dems, the SNP, people are united in revulsion at the misogyny

:26:38.:26:40.

and racism and threat to world peace. The racism because he's

:26:41.:26:46.

building a wall to stop migrants? He spoken about Mexican immigrants.

:26:47.:26:52.

They've got 13 million illegal immigrants in the United States and

:26:53.:26:56.

they want to control immigration. Go and Google search Hillary Clinton,

:26:57.:26:59.

fences and walls. That doesn't make it right. You have Hillary Clinton

:27:00.:27:05.

saying it's OK to stop migrants coming in from Mexico. The way he

:27:06.:27:10.

has described Mexican immigrants as rapist and criminals is

:27:11.:27:13.

unacceptable. Members of his own party, the Republican party, when he

:27:14.:27:18.

attacked a Mexican judge who was not Mexican, they attacked him for being

:27:19.:27:21.

racist. They're not lefties. They are not like me. Is it about not

:27:22.:27:25.

normalising some of the things that he says, so whether it's about the

:27:26.:27:31.

war, a ban on Muslims coming into the country, some of the Commons

:27:32.:27:34.

he's made about women that people found unacceptable. If you don't

:27:35.:27:42.

protest or register you normalise it. We are a democracy as well. I

:27:43.:27:50.

was in America for the inauguration people were demonstrating before the

:27:51.:27:55.

inauguration. So we are clear about the aims. It's about standing in

:27:56.:27:59.

solidarity for those affected by his policies. The majority of Americans

:28:00.:28:02.

did rejecting that the election, but it's also about putting pressure on

:28:03.:28:06.

our own government because they wanted orientate this country to

:28:07.:28:09.

become closer to Donald Trump's America. In the referendum we were

:28:10.:28:14.

told we would take back control, that doesn't mean giving up control

:28:15.:28:18.

to Donald Trump. And just finally, it's all about joining the dots and

:28:19.:28:22.

saying we shouldn't blame migrants and foreigners the problems caused

:28:23.:28:24.

by the people at the top, the bankers. I will try to get some

:28:25.:28:30.

agreement between me and Owen here. You would agree that the analogy of

:28:31.:28:37.

Brexit and what happened in America, that the dispossessed, the

:28:38.:28:39.

deplorable is, those who felt left behind and not listen to voted for

:28:40.:28:45.

Trump and Brexit, and that there is an arrogance in some people who

:28:46.:28:49.

cannot get to grips with the fact that there is a movement of ordinary

:28:50.:28:53.

people out there who have had enough. Do you accept that? I accept

:28:54.:28:58.

people are angry may have reasons to be angry. Their living standards are

:28:59.:29:01.

falling and the kids are having a worse life than them. I don't think

:29:02.:29:05.

it's the answer to blame migrants are problems caused by people at the

:29:06.:29:09.

top. It wasn't migrants who plunged the economy into disaster, it was

:29:10.:29:13.

the banks. It's not migrants to avoid tax on an industrial scale,

:29:14.:29:16.

it's the people at the top. We are trying to balance that debate.

:29:17.:29:21.

Instead of blaming our neighbours, the Big Blue proper services like

:29:22.:29:26.

the NHS, let's talk about the people at the top, plutocrats like Donald

:29:27.:29:30.

Trump. -- the people who prop up our services. John Bercow said he should

:29:31.:29:36.

not be allowed to address parliament. Do you agree with John

:29:37.:29:42.

Bercow? No, I don't. I think it should have gone through normal

:29:43.:29:45.

procedure, and Norman Fowler has said they have had words they will

:29:46.:29:49.

go back to the normal procedure that there are three people making the

:29:50.:29:50.

decision, not just one. Owen Jones was one of the first

:29:51.:30:00.

high-profile Labour figures to champion Jeremy Corbyn as Labour

:30:01.:30:01.

leader. But he's since fallen

:30:02.:30:03.

out of love with him, saying just this month

:30:04.:30:05.

that he would "find it hard There's no vacancy at the moment

:30:06.:30:08.

of course, but should the Labour leader fall under that metaphorical

:30:09.:30:12.

bus, who would the candidates be? Well, Alex Donohue of Ladbrokes has

:30:13.:30:14.

chalked up the runners and riders So the favourite at the moment is

:30:15.:30:24.

Clyde Lewis at 5-1, but there is one name I want to draw everyone's

:30:25.:30:30.

attention to, Rebecca Long Bailey, she seems to be the talking horse at

:30:31.:30:35.

the moment. I'm not going to name any names but the lobby drinks,

:30:36.:30:39.

Christmas 2017, would be paid for by Ladbrokes if she got the job. John

:30:40.:30:45.

McDonnell next at 16-1, and Angela Rayner at 18. The two names at the

:30:46.:30:49.

bottom, Tony Blair and Owen Jones. This time last year, they were both

:30:50.:30:56.

250 to one. One of them has stay there, and another one is coming.

:30:57.:31:01.

Once upon a time, you and Tony were on level footing and Turney is --

:31:02.:31:09.

Tony Blair is surging ahead. I'm stagnating. Come and have five and

:31:10.:31:18.

you will be down to Bacchus pays 50-1. We are joined by Sam tarry,

:31:19.:31:24.

who was Jeremy Corbyn's campaign director last year. Does it matter

:31:25.:31:28.

that the leader of the Labour Party, the leader of Her Majesty's

:31:29.:31:32.

opposition, is incapable of winning an election? I don't think that is

:31:33.:31:36.

true, we have two elections coming up and nobody has said the

:31:37.:31:39.

by-elections will be anything but tough but I think we are on course

:31:40.:31:42.

to do better than some people have said. What is your prediction for

:31:43.:31:47.

the by-elections? Copeland will be pretty tight and I think Stoke, we

:31:48.:31:53.

will win. To be an opposition party, to gradually to decline where you

:31:54.:31:59.

are 18 points behind the Government in the polls is staggering. Things

:32:00.:32:04.

are tough and there is no point in saying otherwise. The problems we

:32:05.:32:07.

are dealing with is long-term historic trends. I knocked on a door

:32:08.:32:12.

in Stoke last weekend and the former Unite Stuard said they wouldn't vote

:32:13.:32:17.

for Labour ever again because they didn't back Brexit strongly enough.

:32:18.:32:20.

In London, people are saying they are falling out of love with Jeremy

:32:21.:32:24.

Corbyn because you are not backing staying in the EU enough and that

:32:25.:32:27.

can be transposed right across the country. How do we square circle

:32:28.:32:31.

that says you have got to win in Brighton, win in Norwich and at the

:32:32.:32:38.

same time with in Stoke? Is that really the reason it in your mind

:32:39.:32:41.

for why Labour is doing so badly in the polls? It is a massive factor. I

:32:42.:32:47.

would vote for Labour till I die, to clarify. You're talking about a

:32:48.:32:50.

leadership contest which I don't think will happen. What Sam says is

:32:51.:32:56.

critical. The unique problem for Labour's electoral coalition is it

:32:57.:32:59.

has one group, despondent Remainers, who think Brexit is the worst thing

:33:00.:33:05.

ever to happen and they wanted gone and another group, jubilant levers,

:33:06.:33:08.

who feel they have their country back. How do you square the circle

:33:09.:33:15.

when Hackney, 80% remain, was Dover in Doncaster, another Labour

:33:16.:33:20.

heartland, 70% voted to leave -- whilst over in Doncaster. Most

:33:21.:33:26.

Labour voters voted to remain and most Labour MPs vote constituencies

:33:27.:33:29.

that voted to leave. Do you think it is anything to do with leadership?

:33:30.:33:34.

Of course, many must mistakes are made, strategy and vision. Jeremy

:33:35.:33:38.

Corbyn didn't expect to win, he stood to put policies on the agenda.

:33:39.:33:43.

He is an extremely principled man, throughout history, he has been on

:33:44.:33:46.

the right side of everything for me... But you have turned against

:33:47.:33:51.

him. It is turning against, it is that I want a Labour leadership to

:33:52.:33:54.

do better, if you look to the polls, you would have to be bonkers to not

:33:55.:33:59.

want a massive turnaround and that is a Labour leadership that supports

:34:00.:34:02.

investment is not cuts, tax Justice, public ownership of utilities and

:34:03.:34:05.

services, an NHS that is not privatised. All of these things, I

:34:06.:34:10.

want a Labour Government to do and it would be completely ridiculous

:34:11.:34:13.

per metre city in a TV studio and say everything is fine and that is

:34:14.:34:19.

on the brink of happening -- for me to sit here. What support Owen

:34:20.:34:24.

Jones' view about the leadership is Jeremy Colvin's personal ratings,

:34:25.:34:27.

negative ratings among sleeve and remain voters in every social class

:34:28.:34:32.

in every region of Britain and every age group. He has even achieve the

:34:33.:34:35.

impossible by scoring a negative rating amongst Labour voters. Is the

:34:36.:34:40.

problem Jeremy Corbyn? I think Jeremy is getting attacked every

:34:41.:34:43.

single day in the media, that makes things done. It is the media's

:34:44.:34:49.

fault? I don't think that, there have been mistakes, messages could

:34:50.:34:52.

have been clearer and some of the policies that are popular, and you

:34:53.:34:55.

are saying polling says the popularity of the policies that

:34:56.:34:59.

Jeremy has put forward... How'd you answer the fact that he is behind it

:35:00.:35:05.

every single demographic? It is a difficult situation. What is the

:35:06.:35:10.

reason? I think the reason is perhaps Jeremy's not been able to

:35:11.:35:14.

get his message and policy across clearly enough. So you are blaming

:35:15.:35:19.

the media, it is the media's fault. Is that really going to explain to

:35:20.:35:23.

Labour MPs... I think it is more complicated, the Labour air at the

:35:24.:35:27.

rate party has been in a low-level civil war for a time and people

:35:28.:35:32.

don't like to vote for parties that are divided. Is any other Jeremy

:35:33.:35:37.

Corbyn's fault? I think Jeremy would admit he has made mistakes. He has

:35:38.:35:41.

had made some really big calls. Some people have said the Article 50

:35:42.:35:45.

stuff was wrong, others have said it is right. In the eyes of the voters,

:35:46.:35:48.

there isn't a right or wrong on that. He made a big call on that.

:35:49.:35:54.

This is an essential point, the policies themselves supported by a

:35:55.:35:57.

large majority. Most people want the rich to pay more tax, they want the

:35:58.:36:00.

railways to be nationalised again, they want investment and not cuts in

:36:01.:36:06.

the economy. The task of Labour leadership is to have a clear vision

:36:07.:36:09.

because if you don't define yourself, clearly you are defined by

:36:10.:36:13.

your opponents and that has been the problem. But the point is no one

:36:14.:36:16.

could be Jeremy Corbyn. People have tried twice and he has won twice, so

:36:17.:36:22.

there is nobody. If you look at last time, Owen Smith, and I don't want

:36:23.:36:27.

to attack him, he is a decent guy, somewhere degree but he is, and his

:36:28.:36:32.

position was to try and overturn the result of the EU referendum. That

:36:33.:36:35.

would have been a catastrophic decision for the Labour leadership

:36:36.:36:39.

to have done. He was a credible alternative and I think if people

:36:40.:36:43.

genuinely felt, and if you go back to the first leadership contest,

:36:44.:36:45.

people looked at those candidates and they didn't think the others

:36:46.:36:49.

would win so they thought, I will vote for someone who is closer to

:36:50.:36:54.

what I actually believe. Is there anyone there who could be Jeremy

:36:55.:36:58.

Corbyn? In a leadership contest? We have had to in a very short space of

:36:59.:37:02.

time and it would be ridiculous to have another leadership contest. But

:37:03.:37:05.

you have said he is not the right man to lead the party. Again, if you

:37:06.:37:10.

have a situation where somebody stands against Jeremy Corbyn, we

:37:11.:37:15.

will end up in that... What is that film? Groundhog day, it will get

:37:16.:37:19.

tedious. What has to happen is that Jeremy Corbyn and the leadership

:37:20.:37:22.

have to decide what is the clear vision and strategy and if it

:37:23.:37:26.

doesn't work, they need to reassess the situation. Can Jeremy Corbyn

:37:27.:37:31.

turn it around? I absolutely think he can. Some of Labour Party has

:37:32.:37:35.

been doing in terms of its ground campaign has been a vast improvement

:37:36.:37:39.

over the last few months. I was out in Stoke over two or three different

:37:40.:37:44.

weekends, putting 400, 500 people on the ground are those constituencies

:37:45.:37:48.

is impressive. They are starting to improve the messaging, getting

:37:49.:37:51.

better people into the back office staff. It is clearly a work in

:37:52.:37:54.

progress, I don't think anyone would disagree. Actually, Owen Jones isn't

:37:55.:38:00.

the only former Corbyn is to to become disillusioned. Clive Lewis,

:38:01.:38:03.

Catherine West, Dawn Butler, all disloyal over Brexit. Is it time for

:38:04.:38:11.

a novel left winger to replacing? I agree with Alan, the last thing we

:38:12.:38:14.

need is another leadership election. We plummeted in the polls after two

:38:15.:38:19.

pretty bloodthirsty leadership elections and another one would put

:38:20.:38:22.

the nail into the carpet. Except the polls are as low as they were at the

:38:23.:38:26.

worst time post war for Labour, which was in 1983. All I would say

:38:27.:38:32.

is this, if Labour loser General Election, it will be a calamity for

:38:33.:38:35.

this country, a calamity for the Labour Party and for the people who

:38:36.:38:40.

Labour were set up to represent. So what the Labour leadership have to

:38:41.:38:43.

do is show they have a clear strategy to turn the polling we have

:38:44.:38:47.

discussed and that means saying, look, we have a popular package of

:38:48.:38:51.

policies, how do we communicate them in a way which resonates beyond the

:38:52.:38:55.

people who are fired up and have joined the Labour Party, probably a

:38:56.:38:58.

bit annoyed with me and my parents about some of the things I have said

:38:59.:39:02.

because there is no point in being in politics unless you can achieve

:39:03.:39:06.

power to change Hull transform the country. So how can we get policies

:39:07.:39:11.

across in a way that resonate with people who don't see themselves as

:39:12.:39:14.

left or right wing, everyday people, working with families who are

:39:15.:39:17.

worried about the future. That is the test.

:39:18.:39:18.

Since the referendum, there have been a lot of arguments

:39:19.:39:20.

about whether the vote in favour of Brexit has led to an increase

:39:21.:39:24.

in crimes against immigrants and minority groups,

:39:25.:39:25.

Essex police have questioned whether we can really make a link

:39:26.:39:28.

between that increase and last June's EU referendum.

:39:29.:39:30.

Last October, the Home Office published provisional figures

:39:31.:39:34.

which suggested that the number of hate crimes in July 2016 had been

:39:35.:39:38.

41% higher than a year earlier - identifying a spike post-referendum.

:39:39.:39:45.

Last week, figures from police forces in England and Wales showed

:39:46.:39:48.

unprecedented levels of hate crimes in the three months

:39:49.:39:51.

following the EU referendum - more than 14,000 crimes

:39:52.:39:56.

were recorded between July and September.

:39:57.:40:00.

But now Essex Police has told the Basildon, Convey and Southend Echo

:40:01.:40:03.

that, "There is no evidence to suggest any increase

:40:04.:40:05.

"has been specifically and directly caused by any one event or issue."

:40:06.:40:12.

They believe that greater awareness and confidence

:40:13.:40:13.

in the police response was behind the higher figures.

:40:14.:40:17.

We're joined now by Tom Slater from the website, Spiked.

:40:18.:40:22.

Welcome to the programme. The Home Office report last year, although

:40:23.:40:26.

provisional, was pretty clear about a link. It said there was a sharp

:40:27.:40:32.

increase in the number of racially or religiously aggravated offences

:40:33.:40:34.

recorded by the police following the EU referendum. I think there are two

:40:35.:40:38.

reasons we need to be incredibly sceptical in terms of these results.

:40:39.:40:42.

It was clear from the off that there was an element of trawling in

:40:43.:40:45.

relation to how these statistics work. What was the evidence? You had

:40:46.:40:50.

various official bodies, whether it was the Lord Mayor of London's

:40:51.:40:54.

website, the true vision website of the police, calling for people to

:40:55.:40:57.

come forward and the second thing we have to remember is that for

:40:58.:41:00.

something to recorded as a hate crime, all it has to be is alleged,

:41:01.:41:06.

on e-mail, by phone, not even by the people involved, so we need to be

:41:07.:41:09.

sceptical not least because this has been... There had been a Scot

:41:10.:41:14.

macro-delete spike in the increase the same methodology had been used

:41:15.:41:17.

before -- they had a spy. So comparing like the like. You use the

:41:18.:41:21.

incredibly low standard by which these are recorded and the climate

:41:22.:41:25.

encouraging people to come forward, even if it weren't involved, and the

:41:26.:41:30.

tendency to use the statistics to defame Brexit, that should make a

:41:31.:41:35.

sceptical. What is the BBC playing at? Where is the voice representing

:41:36.:41:40.

migrants Chris Rock yesterday, a load of migrants who contributed to

:41:41.:41:46.

the economy, where is their seat in the studio? Way ??DELETE it is yours

:41:47.:41:53.

-- it is your producers or the editor, we are having a debate about

:41:54.:41:57.

migrants and the abuses they are suffering and they are not here. The

:41:58.:41:59.

Metropolitan police, the commissioner himself last year said

:42:00.:42:03.

that the increase in these hate crimes was linked to the aftermath

:42:04.:42:07.

of the referendum and specifically the toxic rhetoric used by

:42:08.:42:11.

politicians. To give you some examples, these are lived

:42:12.:42:13.

experiences, I asked for people to come forward with their experiences.

:42:14.:42:19.

I got hundreds of people. These people overwhelmingly, and the Met

:42:20.:42:21.

said this to come who didn't tell the police. You'd think it has been

:42:22.:42:26.

under recorded. Massively. A former member of the GB rowing team was

:42:27.:42:31.

told "We voted for you to go home." And Exeter University student whose

:42:32.:42:35.

dad owns a mini market, a customer came in and said "This places and

:42:36.:42:40.

let now ours, go back to our country." " people like you should

:42:41.:42:48.

be out of here." "Brexit, Brexit, Brexit, get out." This is not an

:42:49.:42:52.

attack on the vast majority of people who voted Leave, decent

:42:53.:42:54.

people like the people I grew up with in my hometown, they voted to

:42:55.:43:01.

leave, but the tiny group of violent racists and use of racists in this

:43:02.:43:05.

country felt they had a mandate for their behaviour because of the

:43:06.:43:07.

rhetoric of senior politicians. Do you not see there was a license for

:43:08.:43:11.

it, that is what these figures back-up? People felt they had a

:43:12.:43:15.

licence to behave in a way they didn't before, that is what these

:43:16.:43:20.

figures say? I don't doubt for a second that there are horrendous

:43:21.:43:23.

racist figures out there and that things Owen has been talking about

:43:24.:43:25.

should be condemned in the strongest terms, but I am talking about how

:43:26.:43:30.

the statistics could be inflated and the way that becomes exploited. What

:43:31.:43:33.

really shocks me is the way in which the left in particular have been so

:43:34.:43:38.

incredibly willing to go along with this. Historically, left-wing

:43:39.:43:41.

commentators and academics have been very good criticising and being

:43:42.:43:45.

sceptical of crime panics, especially focused around the

:43:46.:43:51.

working class, but I see is this uncritical, swallow it to the end

:43:52.:43:54.

defaming. Is it because it fits a pattern for the left or certain

:43:55.:43:57.

political groups to say of course it is a reaction to Brexit. It is

:43:58.:44:02.

because we have a long-standing history are standing against racism

:44:03.:44:06.

and xenophobia. If the left starts disbelieving the lived experiences

:44:07.:44:09.

of people in this country, it is not the left anymore, it doesn't exist

:44:10.:44:15.

as a force. The left exist to rid society of exploitation, oppression

:44:16.:44:18.

and bigotry and that means listening to people when they are yelled out

:44:19.:44:22.

in the street, when they have people threatening them because of who they

:44:23.:44:25.

are, it means listening to them and taking it seriously. Will you accept

:44:26.:44:34.

that the numbers, the statistics, of a massive -- are massively

:44:35.:44:36.

underrepresented because most people don't come forward, that is what the

:44:37.:44:40.

Met says. No one went to the police here. First and foremost, I'm saying

:44:41.:44:45.

we have to have scepticism in relation to these statistics. This

:44:46.:44:47.

is not the first time that these things can be exploited to be zones,

:44:48.:44:53.

football fans, muggers, all of these things suggest we should be

:44:54.:44:59.

sceptical. Sceptical about people who are coming forward? Sceptical

:45:00.:45:01.

about the way the statistics are gathered. When you look at the

:45:02.:45:05.

graph, the spike is quite marked. It is not that there has been a slow,

:45:06.:45:08.

general increase which might fit with what you are saying. There is a

:45:09.:45:13.

massive spike and even the national police cheese Council says we note

:45:14.:45:16.

in national and global events like Brexit have the potential to Trigger

:45:17.:45:20.

short-term rises in hate crime and we saw this following the

:45:21.:45:22.

referendum. Are I don't doubt there is a small

:45:23.:45:32.

minority in this country who are genuinely hateful and bigoted people

:45:33.:45:36.

who felt emboldened, not least because through the Brexit

:45:37.:45:40.

referendum voting for Leave was a vote for xenophobia or racism. Let's

:45:41.:45:47.

be sceptical about this. If we want a tolerant, pluralist society, as we

:45:48.:45:50.

do, to stir up these divisions amongst the working class is not

:45:51.:45:54.

positive especially when it is based on questionable data. The division

:45:55.:45:59.

is caused by people screaming racist abuse at people in the streets. The

:46:00.:46:04.

people who need to be held account, the vast majority voted Leave are

:46:05.:46:10.

decent people. Do you believe the spike? The Met police says it

:46:11.:46:14.

underestimates the figure. The point I would make is this. There has to

:46:15.:46:19.

be unity in this country. Most people who voted either side port --

:46:20.:46:23.

a port this abuse. We need to bring people together, but the idea that

:46:24.:46:27.

the left should stop listening to people who come forward and say they

:46:28.:46:30.

are facing this abuse and scared about their future, what's the point

:46:31.:46:34.

of being on the left? Just to say the figures have levelled off since

:46:35.:46:38.

then. Do you see that as a positive? There might have been a blip but it

:46:39.:46:43.

has levelled off so there isn't a permanent change of attitude, is the

:46:44.:46:49.

indication. Most people are coming forward. Racism and xenophobia

:46:50.:46:52.

existed before the referendum as well as Africa. But people need to

:46:53.:46:59.

be held account, and media outlets with inflammatory references -- as

:47:00.:47:00.

well as after. On Thursday people in

:47:01.:47:02.

the parliamentary constituency The vacancy was created

:47:03.:47:04.

when the former Labour MP and Jeremy Corbyn critic,

:47:05.:47:08.

Jamie Reed resigned to take up a job Labour have held the seat

:47:09.:47:11.

for more than 80 years. But with a majority of just 2,500

:47:12.:47:14.

over the Conservatives, Jenny Kumah's been there

:47:15.:47:17.

to meet the candidates. Copeland, a mainly rural

:47:18.:47:28.

constituency along It has several claims to fame,

:47:29.:47:30.

like England's highest mountain and England's deepest lake,

:47:31.:47:36.

both in the scenic Lake District. And Sellafield, the biggest nuclear

:47:37.:47:39.

site in Europe and a major employer that looms large

:47:40.:47:43.

on the political map. But could this area soon become

:47:44.:47:47.

famous for ditching decades of support for Labour and delivering

:47:48.:47:51.

the first by-election gain by a governing

:47:52.:47:54.

party since the 1980s? Labour has held this area

:47:55.:47:58.

for nearly 80 years, but in the last General Election,

:47:59.:48:02.

the party beat the Conservatives by just 2,500 votes and with Labour

:48:03.:48:06.

struggling in the polls nationally, the Conservatives are campaigning

:48:07.:48:10.

hard here and aiming Even the Prime Minister has

:48:11.:48:12.

hit the campaign trail, showing a real vote of confidence

:48:13.:48:27.

in the Conservative candidate. Her campaign's focused

:48:28.:48:29.

on Jeremy Corbyn's past Quite frankly, for Jeremy Corbyn

:48:30.:48:31.

to change his stance now in a by-election,

:48:32.:48:34.

when we all know he has campaigned for decades against nuclear,

:48:35.:48:38.

a leopard doesn't change its spots. But she has faced criticism

:48:39.:48:41.

for her campaign material, barely mentioning the potential loss

:48:42.:48:44.

of services like A and maternity I was born at that hospital,

:48:45.:48:47.

my four daughters were We must keep consultant-led

:48:48.:48:53.

maternity, so what I have actually been doing is working

:48:54.:48:58.

with the Minister to identify the problems with recruitment,

:48:59.:49:00.

because that is the real challenge. But can the Conservatives get loyal

:49:01.:49:03.

Labour supporters to switch? The Labour candidate's

:49:04.:49:07.

message is the Tories can't This is the first thing

:49:08.:49:10.

on people's minds. They are worried about

:49:11.:49:17.

investment in this community. Yes, they want investment

:49:18.:49:20.

in schools, in our infrastructure and to make Moorside happen,

:49:21.:49:25.

but the first thing that they want is to keep their

:49:26.:49:33.

health service safe. One of her biggest challenges

:49:34.:49:35.

is convincing the thousands of nuclear workers here

:49:36.:49:37.

that her party's leader I'm behind the nuclear industry, no

:49:38.:49:39.

ifs, no buts and it is Labour Party policy to support new nuclear build

:49:40.:49:44.

to keep the lights on in this country as part

:49:45.:49:47.

of a low carbon energy mix. Ukip are also challenging Labour's

:49:48.:49:50.

traditional dominance in this area. There's no jobs or the heavy

:49:51.:49:53.

manufacturing industry has gone. I think it is time for change,

:49:54.:50:07.

it is time for Ukip. The Liberal Democrats came third

:50:08.:50:09.

in the last General Election here. Their candidate doesn't

:50:10.:50:13.

think her pro-Remain stance Labour has moved to the ideological

:50:14.:50:15.

left, the Tories have moved People in Cumbria want a pragmatic

:50:16.:50:21.

politician from a credible party that will focus on their issues

:50:22.:50:30.

and do an excellent job While all the other party

:50:31.:50:33.

candidates have been highlighting their pro-nuclear

:50:34.:50:36.

credentials, the Greens Their candidate is against

:50:37.:50:38.

the new power station at Moorside. I don't think it's the magic bullet

:50:39.:50:44.

everyone has been led to believe it is and if the nuclear industry

:50:45.:50:49.

had been so good that this area, then why are towns like Whitehaven,

:50:50.:50:55.

why are there so many empty units and why are people so hard

:50:56.:51:03.

up around here and why So what are the key

:51:04.:51:08.

issues for voters? You see the rest of the country,

:51:09.:51:11.

you look at our roads, Before Moorside comes in,

:51:12.:51:16.

we want to hospital, Jobs and infrastructure and roads,

:51:17.:51:19.

that is what is key issues for me. If Labour manage to hang onto this

:51:20.:51:24.

seat, it will be a boost If they don't, questions will be

:51:25.:51:27.

raised about the future of Labour's And a full list of candidates

:51:28.:51:31.

standing in the Copeland by-election MPs are warning the Government isn't

:51:32.:51:37.

doing nearly enough to eliminate Last March, a cross-party committee

:51:38.:51:49.

called for new measures to be brought in to help parents share

:51:50.:51:57.

childcare, to support women returning to work after having

:51:58.:52:02.

children and to address low pay in sectors such as catering,

:52:03.:52:05.

cleaning and caring. The Conservative MP, Maria Miller,

:52:06.:52:06.

who chairs the committee, says most of their recommendations

:52:07.:52:09.

were rejected, and she's urging Well, the Government's

:52:10.:52:12.

focusing its efforts on the gender pay gap reporting,

:52:13.:52:18.

which is really for larger companies, 250 people or more,

:52:19.:52:22.

and I think that's an admirable thing to be doing, but it isn't

:52:23.:52:27.

really tackling the things we raise our report,

:52:28.:52:30.

which is making sure that more people have more

:52:31.:52:32.

access to good quality, flexible working and that shared

:52:33.:52:34.

parental leave for dads is working Neither of those really have been

:52:35.:52:37.

addressed and that's why today we are calling for,

:52:38.:52:43.

really, for people who are affected by this to come together

:52:44.:52:46.

and to call for further action Joining me now is Laura

:52:47.:52:49.

Perrins, the co-editor Should the government focus on

:52:50.:53:03.

abolishing the gender pay gap? Absolutely not. The government

:53:04.:53:06.

should have no interest in using the state to abolish what is basically a

:53:07.:53:11.

Marxist idea that all should be paid exactly the same. Is it a Marxist

:53:12.:53:16.

idea? I don't think it's a Marxist idea. I don't think Maria Miller is

:53:17.:53:20.

a Marxist. I'm glad we have made you laugh. Eradicating Gatting -- gap in

:53:21.:53:27.

how men and women are paid is not Marxist. What we are talking about

:53:28.:53:33.

and what the report talks about is very interesting, that women are

:53:34.:53:36.

disproportionately concentrated in the lowest paid and insecure jobs.

:53:37.:53:40.

And after the first child, the pay gap massively increases. That is a

:53:41.:53:45.

thing with the nature of work. One of the only things I support the

:53:46.:53:49.

Conservative led government is the sharing of the maternity and

:53:50.:53:52.

paternity leave, that is a good thing. But because of the lack of

:53:53.:53:57.

affordable childcare and lack of flexible working, they're often set

:53:58.:53:59.

hours that make it difficult for people to job late career and a

:54:00.:54:04.

child, that means that the pay gap increases after a kid -- to juggle

:54:05.:54:10.

having a career and a child. It is about equality. The equality of

:54:11.:54:15.

opportunity of pay. The equality of opportunity is exactly what any

:54:16.:54:17.

government should strive for, but they should not strive for equality

:54:18.:54:24.

of outcome -- equality. If this says we must show -- close the gender pay

:54:25.:54:27.

gap because we must be paid the same. It's not being paid the same,

:54:28.:54:32.

it's about paying as much as male counterparts. Women are paid for the

:54:33.:54:41.

same hours and things. The gender pay gap only kicks in after the age

:54:42.:54:45.

of 35 and it's a reflection of female preference is to combine work

:54:46.:54:50.

and caring responsibility. That should be celebrated and not

:54:51.:54:54.

stigmatised by the government, especially Conservative government.

:54:55.:54:56.

It makes no sense than to say no one should be caring for their children.

:54:57.:55:00.

Is it about female preferences? We know there is a cliff edge where

:55:01.:55:04.

women go off to have children, and even if they wanted or didn't want

:55:05.:55:08.

to come back and come back into work and earn the same rate of pay, is a

:55:09.:55:12.

matter problem that a lot of women choose to stay at home and would

:55:13.:55:17.

like to stay at home? Lots of people would like to juggle their career

:55:18.:55:21.

with having children. The problem we have in this country is that if you

:55:22.:55:26.

were born a woman, you for more likely to end up being paid

:55:27.:55:29.

significantly less than if you are a man. Is not fair. -- it is not fair.

:55:30.:55:40.

I'm not saying everybody should get ?30,000 on it be a flat salary. The

:55:41.:55:46.

gap is a reflection of preferences. We are looking at other countries,

:55:47.:55:51.

particularly Nordic countries which have more affordable childcare. They

:55:52.:55:55.

have flexible working. That enables women to juggle, as a preference,

:55:56.:55:59.

caring for children, which should also be a male responsibility. In

:56:00.:56:03.

those countries thereon more women in work. Is that the contradiction

:56:04.:56:09.

about female preferences. In many cases it isn't a preference. If

:56:10.:56:14.

there's not enough affordable childcare and fathers don't have the

:56:15.:56:18.

facility to take paid leave that would give women more opportunity,

:56:19.:56:22.

is that the point, that you are only representing a small number of

:56:23.:56:25.

people all women who prefer and choose to do what you suggest and

:56:26.:56:28.

there are many others that can't because there are the sorts of

:56:29.:56:33.

things available. There are women who combine work and a career and

:56:34.:56:37.

any gap that exists is mainly due to female preferences. What do you base

:56:38.:56:43.

that on? The Nordic example always comes on but it's a very stratified

:56:44.:56:49.

system and women are still, if you compare it across, they are paid

:56:50.:56:52.

less than men and take up part-time jobs and take on caring roles that

:56:53.:56:58.

the stake -- state have taken over. What is the gap in the Nordic

:56:59.:57:02.

countries? I think you'll find it's closer than it is here. But that is

:57:03.:57:06.

a big state, and that is what you want. You want a big state and the

:57:07.:57:11.

state meddling in everybody's decisions and meddling in the family

:57:12.:57:15.

and supplementing everybody's income. As a Conservative, they

:57:16.:57:21.

believe in a small state. But it's a Conservative government doing it.

:57:22.:57:24.

They can be delusion about things, and that is one here. I just think

:57:25.:57:30.

it should be a more equal society in men and women should have a less gap

:57:31.:57:35.

in their pay. So you want equality of outcome? More state. I don't want

:57:36.:57:42.

women to end up being paid less than men in this country. That's why it's

:57:43.:57:49.

a pragmatic approach, we should have childcare that people can afford as

:57:50.:57:52.

well as flexible working. There is flexible working. We want more

:57:53.:58:00.

flexible working. You for choice, individual choice, and that's what

:58:01.:58:04.

arguing for. You're up for state intervention. You are into state

:58:05.:58:12.

meddling and bullying of families. How are mothers being bullied? If

:58:13.:58:20.

they have childcare and the state system loaded against caring for

:58:21.:58:24.

your children. It's about allowing the individual to choose. A woman

:58:25.:58:32.

who wants to choose, that individual human freedom, where they can choose

:58:33.:58:36.

to have a career and not be penalised and have a family, but you

:58:37.:58:40.

are at war with individual choice. I am going to make an equal outcome

:58:41.:58:45.

here, as you have the same amount of time. That's it for today.

:58:46.:58:48.

The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:49.:58:52.

I'll be back at 11:30am tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage

:58:53.:58:55.

Jo Coburn is joined by columnist Owen Jones to discuss proposals to cut hospital services across England and the House of Lords debate on the Brexit Bill. Plus should the invitation for US President Donald Trump to visit the UK be revoked?


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