02/05/2017 Daily Politics


02/05/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Labour say they will hire 10,000 extra police officers

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paid for by reversing cuts in capital gains tax.

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But why didn't the Shadow Home Secretary

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It was the dinner date from hell according to EU sources,

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but should we really believe the account of a spurned lover?

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It was 20 years ago today that Tony Blair marched down Downing Street

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But what's the legacy of Labour's most electorally successful leader?

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And an installation artist has been commissioned

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What will Cornelia Parker make of the contest?

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And with us for the whole programme today is someone who thinks politics

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is more of a science than an art, political scientist, Philip Cowley.

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First this morning, Labour have said they will create 10,000 more police

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officers in England and Wales if they win the general election -

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and they'll pay for the policy by reversing cuts to Capital Gains Tax.

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But there's some confusion about how much it will cost.

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In a radio interview earlier this morning

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Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott said the sum was only ?300,000.

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But that would only amount to ?30 per police officer.

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She then corrected herself and said the figure was ?80 million.

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In a further clarification, Labour said it would in fact cost

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In the past couple of hours, Jeremy Corbyn was asked about that figure.

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And Diane Abbott's interview. She directed the figure. -- corrected.

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And it will be paid for by not going ahead with the cuts

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REPORTER: Is it a bit embarrassing your Shadow Home Secretary

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Trying to get voters to put their trust in you in this election?

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It will be absolutely clear now, today and in the manifesto.

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I'm not embarrassed in the slightest.

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That was Jeremy Corbin, the Labour leader.

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I'm happy to say Diane Abbott is with me now. It is embarrassing? It

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is embarrassing that you don't know your figures on a key policy. I do

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know the figures, and I did seven interviews that morning and that was

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the seventh. I do know my figures. You did not know them in that

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interview. It was with LBC. We can have a listen. How much were 10,000

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police officers cost? -- would. If we recruit 10,000 policemen and

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women over a four-year period, we believe it will be about ?300,000

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will stop ?300,000? What are you paying them? ! Sorry. How much will

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they cost? They will cost... It will cost... About ?80 million. About ?80

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million? Yes. That is hugely embarrassing. Not just misspeaking,

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you just don't know your figures and you are not on top of your brief. If

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I didn't know my figures why was I able to do six other interviews and

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give the figures correctly. You need to ask why the Conservative Party is

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so anxious to move the debate away from the 20,000 police officers. We

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will come onto that. But back to the interview, never mind that you did

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six interviews, this is an election campaign and, front benches and

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government ministers are expected to do many interviews and this was a

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major policy announcement. You want to make this a cornerstone of your

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manifesto. You didn't know the figures. I did know my figures. Why

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didn't you say then? I misspoke. If I didn't know them I wouldn't have

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been able to repeat them correctly in six other interviews. Which other

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interviews did you correct them? In one other I heard you said it was

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all going to be in the manifesto. I did six other interviews. You

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decided to talk about the figures and they are basic figures.

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?300,000, which would have meant 30 pounds per police officer, that is

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embarrassing. Did you not know them at all and you were guessing when

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you were asked about it on air? I knew the figures. I repeated there

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many times. I have not heard you repeat there many times. You don't

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want to talk about policing, I'm concerned about that, which is

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something the public is concerned about, anyone to go over and over

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the Nick Ferrari interview. That issue of fault, Diane Abbott. We

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were prepared to talk about the issue of policing and the claims you

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are making that the police force has been underfunded anyone to recruit

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more officers, but by going on air in a major interview where you just

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completely fluffed the figures, whether you knew them or not, that

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does not do your cause any good. The public will understand that you are

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not willing to talk about the real issues, and the real issues are that

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we have lost 20,000 police officers since 2010 and we are seeing a rise

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in fired on crime. You want to be Home Secretary. Yellow macro --

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violent crime. I dispute that you did know those figures, and how can

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you claim that you want to be Home Secretary in charge of the police

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forces of England and Wales question not have you instilled confidence --

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England and Wales? People that listened to any of the interviews I

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gave this morning with the exception of the LBC interview will know that

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I do know the figures and I wish you were prepared to talk about

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policing. We are going to talk about that. We have a Conservative on the

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programme, but people will be worried that you are not across what

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you should be in terms of this brief that you came on the airwaves to

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announce as a key part of your holiday. Is it important to attach

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the right figures to major spending commitments? Of course, and that is

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why I did that in six interviews out of seven. It is also important that

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this programme is prepared to talk to the Labour spokesperson about

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policing because people deserve to know what the Labour Party is trying

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to do. You are trying to reverse the cuts to capital gains tax, so what

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level will it be under Labour? We are going to reverse the cuts in

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capital gains tax in order to fund... But what level will it be?

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Just let me say what it is important to have 10,000 more police meant

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because we have lost 20,000 under Theresa May -- more policemen. We

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have seen a rise in violent crime and we have some of the lowest rates

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of capital gains tax in Europe. What will they be under Labour? What will

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the two levels of capital gains tax be? We will bring them back to where

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they were. What are those levels? It will save us nearly ?2.7 billion and

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that is what we are going to use, to pay for the 10,000 policemen and

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other areas of our manifesto, and in case you say that none of it is

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costed, we will produce a manifesto which is costed and is paid for and

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we hope as the campaign progresses that people like yourself will be

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more willing to talk about the issues. We will, but voters want to

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know that they can trust you with the figures and the finances. One

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more time, because I think you donor what the levels of capital gains tax

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would be if you reverse them -- I think you don't know. It is not the

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figure we have put out, that is the figure in the government's on Red

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but, if we reverse the cuts that the government has announced, that we

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will raise at least ?2.7 billion -- Redbook. We believe we can put that

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money to better use than on tax cuts for the top 5%. Dominic, we can have

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a look at the substance of the issue, there have been cuts, and

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last month the leader of policing said said it is in a perilous state,

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the issue of policing, and that is a real message for the Conservatives

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to take into the election after being in power for seven years. Our

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message is that if you are at the crime survey for England and Wales,

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violent crime is down by 22%. Not accorded to the macro -- according

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to police recordings. It is also true to say, on the crime survey,

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there has been an uptake against the person although the ONS said that is

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not statistically important, but you will not get more investment in the

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NHS and policing unless you have got a strong handle on the economy and

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just look at the shambles of Diane Abbott this morning. Imagine if that

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was regarding the economy as a whole. We have discussed that as a

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whole. We are going to look at a further cut to policing under the

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Conservative government? There will be any further cuts? I was asked to

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talk about Brexit, but I'm happy to talk about crime. At the moment we

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are happy to talk about our record. There have been difficult decisions

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when it comes to the police budget. It has dropped by 22%. The public

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concern that it -- the public care most about crime and that has

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dropped. They said there was also an increase, and you will know that

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Biden crime, and knife crime is what frightens the public -- violent

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crime. You can't answer the basic figures, how you going to pay for

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this and how many police you are going to put on the street. You

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can't answer questions about your record in losing police officers.

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Violent crime is down by 22%. The independent watchdog says what is

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happening is an unconscious form of rationing. If you want to be

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measured on your record, according to the watchdog that record is not

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very good. You can take a selective quote. It is not a selective quote.

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What I'm going to point to, since 2010, seven years, what has happened

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to crime and violent crime, which is the attack Labour are going on, it

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is down, and the public know it. No one seems the thinks Diane Abbott is

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going to be a strong custodian of law and order. Do you accept... I

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think Joe is asking the questions. Knife crime has gone up in the

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Metropolitan Police area. I don't have the geographical figures.

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England and Wales, violent crime down by 22% since 2010, and there

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has been an increase recently, but even the ONS said it is

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significantly insignificant, and we will run on our record, you have

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nothing credible to say on this issue and no one trusts you on this

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issue because you cannot get the basic facts right. There was a press

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release which was put out by Labour which mentioned the 300 mil in

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pounds figure. -- ?300 million figure. You did not use that in your

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interview and that reduces your credibility and allows opponents to

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attack you in the way that Dominic is. It reduces the media credibility

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because they are not prepared to talk about. You can blame the media,

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but it doesn't help your cause if you give ammunition to your

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opponents. What does it do to Labour campaigners when they are having to

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fight fires unnecessary fires on a key cornerstone? What people want to

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know is what the government is going to do about the rise in violent

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crime and gun crime in areas like London and this is what we are not

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hearing. The ONS says the uptake in violent crime is small, but they say

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that this is a warning on what is to come. In London there has been an

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increase. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner says she is worried

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about that, you saying that has nothing to do with police cuts?

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Across the board, what voters worry about is not what we put in in terms

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of either money or in terms of numbers of police officers and

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PlayStation is, they care about the end product -- and police stations.

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But we are not complacent. If you look at the changes we have made on

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stop and search and also sentences for knife possession, we will

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continue to be vigilant and have zero tolerance on those most serious

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levels of crime for the what we are not going to do is take one isolated

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statistic for one isolated area and not defend our record. Which is

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strong. The ONS says even after taking better reported into account,

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homicides and knife crimes are showing small but genuine increases.

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People may ask if cuts are going to continue under a Tory government if

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you win the election, those figures are only going to increase. What the

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country understands is we have to look at our code according to our

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cloth and you can't rely on the Labour Party for that -- we have to

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cut our code according to our cloth. You have got to trust the strong

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leadership and only the Tories are giving this to you. Looking at this

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issue. I remember Tony Blair. Tough on the causes of crime. Could this

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become a bigger issue? The exchange has become symbolic of the exchange

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so far and the election so far, Labour have put out a policy which

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they have done nearly every day, and a policy which does very well when

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you poll about individual policies. The attack then comes not be policy

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detail but on whether Labour can deliver and that is basically what

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we are going to see every week for the rest of the election. If there

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is an import to Diane's interview this morning, that is it, because it

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speaks to confidence which is the attack line that the Conservatives

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are pushing. In this exchange it is policy detail against competence.

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And that is what we will see for the next 5-6 weeks. Thanks for joining

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us. Now, when European Commission

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President, Jean Claude Juncker, met Theresa May at Downing Street

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last week, the European Commission described

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the meeting as "constructive." But an alternative account of the

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meeting appeared in a German In it, an EU source was quoted

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as describing Theresa May as being "in a different galaxy"

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and that Mr Juncker as "ten times more sceptical" about the prospects

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for a deal on leaving the meeting. Our political correspondent, Vicki

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Young is with the Prime Minister in the west country this afternoon

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and joins us now from St Austell. Give us the account from Downing

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Street of the meeting. They say they will not get involved in any kind of

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war and they do not recognise what has been said. What is interesting

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is that they will have to get used to the idea of what we have seen

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since the EU left the vote last year, that Theresa May has not been

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able to dictate what is going on. She was still able to do that

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through the House of Commons, but now those negotiations are under way

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there will be two sides to the story. They will not be very pleased

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that this version has been leaked out by whoever did that, and they

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will continue to approach this in a very constructive manner and have to

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be careful with their words as they go into this, saying they want

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Brexit to be good is no reason they shouldn't be that that is the

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challenge from the other side. A beautiful backdrop there, Vicky, in

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Saint or stall, why is the prime Minster there? No coincidence she

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has come here, because this used to be the Liberal Democrat heartlands,

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but in the last election they were walked in washed away in a blue tide

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with the Conservatives taking every seat, and Theresa May is here to

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make sure there is no chance of a Liberal Democrat comeback. And it's

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a pattern we have seen already, coming to areas where there has been

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a vote in favour of Brexit, and a sizeable Ukip vote, and the

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Conservatives are confident they can attract some of those people who

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would look towards Theresa May is the person to deliver Brexit. But it

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will be interesting to see how the kind of stories we have been hearing

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about, the difficulties she could face and the negotiations to come,

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how that will go down and it would help her in some ways. The

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Conservatives hope that people will look and say the negotiations will

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be tough and she has promised to deliver for Britain and in areas

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like this which voted to leave, they might look at her and see that as a

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vote winner. There is no sizeable Labour vote in these areas, so she

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is seen as someone in contest with the Liberal Democrats. They say even

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though they are a pro-EU party, they say in local elections, even in

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areas that voted to leave they have done well, but I think the Tories

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feel pretty confident they will be able to hold onto many of the seats

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in the South West. And joining us now from Brussels

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is the Irish MEP and Vice President of the European

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Parliament, Mairead McGuinness. So, the gloves are off, EU officials

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are briefing against the UK in the European press. Is this the way the

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negotiations should be conducted? That is a tabloid version of

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probably what is going to have to happen over the next couple of

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weeks, which is that both sides have set out their negotiating

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priorities, the parliament, the council and the commission are clear

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and the United Kingdom is in the middle of an election campaign, so

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we will have to wait for some time until we see absolute clarity from

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the UK side. But I think both parties in the negotiations know

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that they have to reach agreement on a number of issues, that we have a

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certain amount of time in which to do that, and that we do have to get

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on with it. My own view is that the renegotiations cannot start until

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July, or maybe after August, so that would tighten the time frame, but in

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a sense preparatory work is what is really important so the council

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meeting at the weekend is crucial because of the clarity it has

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delivered on citizens rights and budgetary issues and on the issue of

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Ireland. And also from the Parliamentary side. Your voice is

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quite low in my earpiece. I will shout as loud as I can

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without it being embarrassing in the studio. You said this was tabloid

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gossip. There was an article in a German newspaper, a broadsheet

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newspaper in Germany, do you think this sort of tone that those sorts

:21:37.:21:42.

of comments that were briefed to the newspaper is the way the

:21:43.:21:47.

negotiations should be conducted by the EU? Clearly there were a number

:21:48.:21:52.

of people at this famous dinner. What hasn't been discussed is the

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food. The words were discussed. What has emerged is apparently, I wasn't

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at the dinner, I can only reflect in what I read in the English version

:22:04.:22:07.

of the article. There was a sense in which they sat down together,

:22:08.:22:13.

president Juncker and Prime Minister May, there was perhaps not a meeting

:22:14.:22:17.

of minds on the issues. There may be a view from one side there's no

:22:18.:22:22.

understanding. Beyond that, this will play out over a number of days,

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maybe weeks, because there is an election campaign, there is a

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reality at all levels in the Parliament, commission and council

:22:32.:22:35.

and on the UK side as well, when the negotiations start we'll have to

:22:36.:22:39.

leave that outside of the room and deal with issues that matter to

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people. It is about a question of border in Northern Ireland, we will

:22:45.:22:47.

not allow that to happen again. It is budget and citizen's rights.

:22:48.:22:53.

Dominic, if these reports are right, they sounded pretty comprehensive,

:22:54.:22:57.

the Prime Minister, according to the briefings is either being poorly

:22:58.:23:01.

briefed herself on the negotiations or is hopelessly naive. Which is it?

:23:02.:23:05.

Neither, they are not credible, those reports. We can expect, on all

:23:06.:23:10.

sides to get tittle tattle which makes it into the media. Mairead

:23:11.:23:18.

McGuinnessaged I will stay resolute. Theresa May won't be pushed around.

:23:19.:23:24.

Equally, be constructive, sober and positive guying forward. ? No

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contrast to the media tittle tattle, the EU finalised their guidelines.

:23:33.:23:35.

We probably agree on two thirds of issues. We will have two years on

:23:36.:23:40.

the final third. Lots of gaps still a bridge. If you are going to have

:23:41.:23:44.

tough moments in negotiation, who do you trust to lead us through it? I

:23:45.:23:49.

would say Theresa May has a firm hand on negotiations. That's your

:23:50.:23:53.

line. If you're looking at the terms and tone of the negotiation, even

:23:54.:24:00.

Mairead McGuinness said there wasn't a meeting of mints... It is the

:24:01.:24:06.

start of the negotiations. I accept. That but Theresa May saying we want

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to makes Brexit a success and asking clawed Juncker to say the same,

:24:12.:24:15.

that's naive. He needs to make it look less attractive to leave the EU

:24:16.:24:20.

than it is to remain part of the EU. Isn't that a naive thing to say in

:24:21.:24:27.

respect of the EU partners? It would be politically count he prods Octive

:24:28.:24:33.

for the EU. Jean-Claude Juncker isn't the only voice in this. I was

:24:34.:24:39.

reading the speeches in February mar raid McGuinness made. The Irish will

:24:40.:24:44.

not wanted trade barriers to go up. It would be damaging to the UK

:24:45.:24:50.

agricultural market. Let's not focus on loose, loose. If the negotiations

:24:51.:24:55.

continue down the lines of Theresa May being on another galaxy and, as

:24:56.:25:00.

you say, there wasn't a meeting of minds when they met then, but

:25:01.:25:05.

actually t will end up with economic mass seism come on the side of the

:25:06.:25:10.

EU if they make it difficult for the UK? Theresa May is in an election

:25:11.:25:18.

campaign. The EU of the 27 are on a campaign where they're united to

:25:19.:25:22.

deal with Brexit. What's clear in this Parliament is people have got

:25:23.:25:29.

over the shock and disappointment and and are pragmatic setting out

:25:30.:25:32.

what the issues are. I hope we can reach a good agreement. It requires

:25:33.:25:37.

us all to stand back and look at the issues. There has to be some

:25:38.:25:40.

progress on the withdrawal agreement. I believe we'll need a

:25:41.:25:45.

transition period. We want to have a good trading relationship. There's

:25:46.:25:50.

no doubt the situation, after Brexit, cannot be the same as today.

:25:51.:25:55.

That's where there are some difficult negotiations ahead. First

:25:56.:25:58.

of all, for people to recognise that. To some extent, the reporting

:25:59.:26:04.

of that particular dinner may do no harm that there were different views

:26:05.:26:07.

coming. Perhaps there was no meeting of minds. It may focus minds after

:26:08.:26:13.

the election campaign about what can be achieved and how. Really, I

:26:14.:26:17.

always say if we put people first, then I think we can work towards

:26:18.:26:21.

solutions that are good for the European Union. And that perhaps

:26:22.:26:25.

don't harm the UK. After all, you've made the decision. We've to deal

:26:26.:26:29.

with the consequences of it. We don't want to see the EU of 27

:26:30.:26:34.

disunited. From an Irish point of view, we know well our issues will

:26:35.:26:39.

only be defended and won by the EU 27 sticking together. When you look

:26:40.:26:44.

at Ireland's position, whose side would you say you're on, mar raid

:26:45.:26:50.

McGuinness? Is it your biggest trading partner which you share a

:26:51.:26:55.

land border or Jean-Claude Juninger and the 27? Are you saying whose

:26:56.:27:00.

side are you on? The sound is really bad. Are you on the UK's bigger

:27:01.:27:06.

trading partner? I'll cut across you. I hard. Good. In terms of

:27:07.:27:14.

sides, I've said this to minister David Davis, the Republic of

:27:15.:27:18.

Ireland, we're part of the European Union of 27. Our Taoiseach has made

:27:19.:27:23.

that clear. We sit on that side of the table and negotiate with the UK.

:27:24.:27:28.

We have a long history with the UK. We are neighbours, traders, as you

:27:29.:27:32.

are with us. We both value that relationship and want to make sure

:27:33.:27:38.

it is not deeply damaged. Or food sector, farmers would be really

:27:39.:27:42.

badly affected. When it comes to sides, you have to understand there

:27:43.:27:47.

are two sides. We're firmly with the EU 27. It allows us to understand

:27:48.:27:52.

fully the issues which affect both of us. If you want absolute clarity,

:27:53.:27:59.

the EU 27. Mar raid said there has to be some progress made on the

:28:00.:28:03.

withdrawal, the divorce bill. Without some sort of progress made,

:28:04.:28:08.

they're not going to talk about an EU trade deal. Do you accept that

:28:09.:28:14.

now? It has to be done 234 stages? I certainly welcome the fact the EU

:28:15.:28:19.

position has shifted. We need to tie up all the details of the exit deal

:28:20.:28:23.

before moving on. I'm fine with that. The think the Government is

:28:24.:28:27.

too. We need to work out the principles which will inform the

:28:28.:28:31.

exit agreement. Whether on financial liabilities and as sets we would be

:28:32.:28:36.

entitled to, be also EU nationals. We need to make rowing rest on the

:28:37.:28:41.

future agreement. There will be no deal until we agree the whole deal.

:28:42.:28:49.

The fundamental principle of the way the EU goes about its diplomacy.

:28:50.:28:54.

When you listen to what Government ministers said so far, the snap

:28:55.:28:58.

election being called. Theresa May said she wanted to strengthen her

:28:59.:29:02.

hand because of the opposition. Amber Rudd implied and suggested it

:29:03.:29:06.

was about being given a mandate to be more flexible. You're pleased EU

:29:07.:29:11.

has moved, you say. Are you going to move and would be support the

:29:12.:29:14.

Government moving too in these negotiations? I think any

:29:15.:29:20.

negotiation, you need a leader, set of principles, objectives. We've got

:29:21.:29:25.

that. There will come a moment when in order to get that win/win deal,

:29:26.:29:28.

there will be need to be flexibility. I think, not just

:29:29.:29:35.

because we've a strength in mandate after from the British people after

:29:36.:29:39.

this election, but not having the transitional arrangement by an

:29:40.:29:42.

election. That will be useful. It was interesting to see the CBI and

:29:43.:29:48.

British Chamber of Commerce agreeing with that. Business feels more

:29:49.:29:55.

confident about that. In terms of elections, mayor raid, German

:29:56.:30:00.

elections, not just Theresa May having elections here when

:30:01.:30:03.

discussing these negotiations. If Northern Ireland decided to hold a

:30:04.:30:08.

border pole, is it your understanding a united Ireland would

:30:09.:30:14.

have automatic membership? This was expressed on Saturday. What the Good

:30:15.:30:19.

Friday Agreement outlines so that in the eventual time if it occurred a

:30:20.:30:26.

referendum of the people decided they wanted a united Ireland, that

:30:27.:30:30.

new entity would be if you can members of the European Union. This

:30:31.:30:33.

was important that be depth with now and is on the table. From our side,

:30:34.:30:38.

I represent a border constituency with Northern Ireland, I travel

:30:39.:30:43.

through Northern Ireland to get to my constituents in Donegal. It is

:30:44.:30:48.

important the EU 27 understand the Irish questions. The point they may

:30:49.:30:51.

all the time is peace is so important. It is as important as mix

:30:52.:30:58.

and % much more important. On the staging of the negotiations, we need

:30:59.:31:02.

goodwill for real progress to be made. I think after election

:31:03.:31:08.

campaigns, when we look at the timeline ahead, goodwill will be

:31:09.:31:12.

found hopefully on both sides. Philip, what do you make of the

:31:13.:31:14.

reporting of this meeting? You use the word divorce, and anyone

:31:15.:31:24.

who is in a divorce this is to one side of the marriage, and they get a

:31:25.:31:27.

false picture, and is some scepticism is required. I'm

:31:28.:31:32.

interested in the politics of this, some of the people discussing the

:31:33.:31:36.

report implied it will do Theresa May damage, but I thought it would

:31:37.:31:40.

have the opposite. She will be able to present herself as standing up

:31:41.:31:46.

for British interests against Europeans who are snooty and aloof

:31:47.:31:49.

and looking down on Britain and willing to do us harm and that will

:31:50.:31:54.

do the Conservative message no harm at all in this election. There are

:31:55.:31:59.

many people that do not regard the EU institutions as doing a good

:32:00.:32:04.

thing. That is how she will present it and I think that is how it will

:32:05.:32:06.

go down with most voters. Thanks. So, it was 20 years ago today that

:32:07.:32:11.

Tony Blair walked triumphant down Downing Street to the

:32:12.:32:14.

delight of adoring crowds - all Labour party

:32:15.:32:17.

activists, of course. It was the first of three general

:32:18.:32:25.

election wins for the Labour Party. Tony Blair remains the most

:32:26.:32:30.

successful leader of the Labour Party to date.

:32:31.:32:32.

If you'd said to me at 18, 19, you're going to be a politician, I

:32:33.:32:36.

# May be, you're never gonna feel this way

:32:37.:32:41.

# You're never gonna know me but I know you

:32:42.:32:43.

# And I can't see the woods from the trees...#

:32:44.:33:04.

Piccadilly Circus flashing on the screen there.

:33:05.:33:06.

# Can only get better now I've found you...#

:33:07.:33:19.

It has been an immense privilege to serve as the Prime Minister

:33:20.:33:34.

of the United Kingdom over the last six and a half years.

:33:35.:33:43.

Two of the new Conservative intake of MPs, Andrew

:33:44.:33:46.

Lansley for Cambridgeshire South and Theresa May, the new member of

:33:47.:33:48.

# I look at things now in a different light than I did before

:33:49.:33:59.

# Can only get better now I've found you

:34:00.:34:19.

# Can only get better now I've found you #.

:34:20.:34:37.

We're joined now by the Guardian commentator, Paul Mason, who's

:34:38.:34:40.

a critic of Tony Blair and former Labour strategist, who's a big fan.

:34:41.:34:45.

Welcome to both of you. A bit of a stature for you. Were you a Labour

:34:46.:34:56.

man in 1997, Paul Mason? I was a Labour man, and if Jeremy Corbyn

:34:57.:35:01.

gets in on the 9th of June it will be a different set of people

:35:02.:35:06.

welcoming him. I was there the next morning, at work, on a business

:35:07.:35:14.

magazine, where people work voting Labour, the rank and file, and the

:35:15.:35:17.

leaders were Tories, but some of them said they had flipped, they

:35:18.:35:22.

couldn't vote Tory and that was the nature of Tony Blair's achievement.

:35:23.:35:28.

The coalition then was too broad? No, it is the one that Tony Blair

:35:29.:35:34.

built in power with people whose wealth is not owned basically and

:35:35.:35:41.

with the City, basically. The bigger stake of Blair and Brown -- the big

:35:42.:35:47.

mistake. They just got too close to people with money. Do you agree? I

:35:48.:35:54.

agree with part of that. The biggest failure I think of the Labour

:35:55.:35:59.

government under Blair and Brown was that we drifted too far from the

:36:00.:36:04.

unions and that movement. The TUC and the unions needed modernising.

:36:05.:36:12.

If we had invested more time in the union movement and modernising it, I

:36:13.:36:17.

think that was a mistake, and we are paying the price now. Jeremy Corbyn

:36:18.:36:23.

was put into power, and Ed Miliband before him, by failing unions. It

:36:24.:36:28.

should be stronger and more representative than it is. Tony

:36:29.:36:33.

Blair should have been bolder? Those five pledges were too modest? You

:36:34.:36:39.

should always under promise and over perform and in his actions you can't

:36:40.:36:46.

fault him in terms of... Tax credits, a fire hose playing on

:36:47.:36:49.

rising inequality, the things he achieved which people thought were

:36:50.:36:54.

possible, the Buddha Steve reflected the modesty of what people thought

:36:55.:36:58.

government could do -- the modesty reflected the modesty of what people

:36:59.:37:00.

thought government could do. He was bowled. People criticise him for his

:37:01.:37:10.

foreign policy issues. Regarding domestic successes, the minimum wage

:37:11.:37:18.

and building new hospitals and schools, devolving power, do you

:37:19.:37:21.

concede that they did have a long list of achievements? I celebrated.

:37:22.:37:28.

There was a debate within New Labour, overtop Dan Flavin is and

:37:29.:37:39.

bottom-up, community politics -- over top down Fabian is. Millions of

:37:40.:37:45.

working class voters are moving away from Labour because they don't think

:37:46.:37:48.

they are being empowered by. I would argue for top I don't agree with

:37:49.:37:57.

that analysis. That forgets John Prescott's red achievement. He

:37:58.:38:03.

brought in the decent homes programme. 2 million homes

:38:04.:38:09.

modernised and he also brought in Brownfield development, the city

:38:10.:38:12.

revolution. If you go to major cities they are a great success

:38:13.:38:16.

because of the work of Tony Blair and John Prescott. If it were such a

:38:17.:38:22.

great success at every level, why is there so much hatred of Tony Blair?

:38:23.:38:28.

In my view, sometimes you can win too much, the Tory party have taken

:38:29.:38:33.

a long time to recover from Margaret Thatcher's great victories. She won

:38:34.:38:39.

so much, they ran from her 20 years, and the same thing is happening in

:38:40.:38:45.

the Labour Party. Tony won too much and that spokespeople. Do you agree?

:38:46.:38:54.

-- spooks people for top I agree with some of that, and they were

:38:55.:39:00.

desperate to get over the betrayal myth which has hampered Labour, the

:39:01.:39:04.

problem was, the majority was so great, that why are you doing these

:39:05.:39:12.

modest wings. I spoke to one Labour MP and he said he got his first

:39:13.:39:15.

betrayal that one week after being elected. The problems with Iraq in

:39:16.:39:24.

2003, but the left was already fairly bitter about Labour, before

:39:25.:39:30.

that, you can find complaints that Labour was selling out and they were

:39:31.:39:32.

achieving the change that had been promised. They did achieve the

:39:33.:39:37.

change that they promised, but because of the majority people had

:39:38.:39:40.

this perception that Britain was going to change overnight. They did

:39:41.:39:45.

not expect that big a landslide and they could have reformed things in a

:39:46.:39:48.

more meaningful way but they had not planned for it and they did not want

:39:49.:39:52.

to make a mistake. The left of the Labour Party have unfairly

:39:53.:39:59.

criticised them for that. The left is not obsessed with the

:40:00.:40:01.

underachievement aspect. Foreign policy? It is Iraq. Number one. And

:40:02.:40:09.

then the lead up to the catastrophe of 2008. It was not just that they

:40:10.:40:15.

overregulated. Under regulated is the claim. Tony Blair was attacking

:40:16.:40:22.

the FSA on being too hard on the City, but if you do that and the

:40:23.:40:27.

economy explodes, no wonder that the people who pay the price say, never

:40:28.:40:32.

again you are going to do that. What about the open-door policy on

:40:33.:40:36.

Eastern European immigration for top one Tony Blair's greatest single

:40:37.:40:43.

achievements. The people who joined the European Union had the right to

:40:44.:40:47.

live in Britain. What about transition arrangements? We had jobs

:40:48.:40:52.

vacant and we needed people to come here. The second thing, cementing

:40:53.:41:01.

the accession countries into the European Union was a way of

:41:02.:41:03.

strengthening our geopolitical position. We wanted those European

:41:04.:41:11.

partners. I disagree with that. My disagreement is stronger with

:41:12.:41:16.

hindsight. He opened the door, first of all, they did not prepare people.

:41:17.:41:20.

They said not many will come, but millions came. And then they kept

:41:21.:41:25.

denying that there was going to be any impact on people's wages and

:41:26.:41:31.

conditions and the concept of citizenship, this is an abstract

:41:32.:41:34.

contract, we don't care that your grandad worked in this factory,

:41:35.:41:38.

somebody else can arrive with the same citizenship as you and I think

:41:39.:41:43.

people were and are prepared by us, the Labour movement and party for

:41:44.:41:49.

that shock. -- under prepared. That boosted support for the left and

:41:50.:41:53.

then Ed Miliband and now Jeremy Corbyn as leader. One of the

:41:54.:41:57.

interesting things. There has been a Twitter feed reliving 1997, and it

:41:58.:42:05.

was interesting, the extent which Euroscepticism was there bubbling

:42:06.:42:08.

away with the referendum party at the time. One other point about

:42:09.:42:14.

1997, we saw people walking their into Downing Street on the day Tony

:42:15.:42:18.

Blair became Prime Minister, and I saw a map of the route he would take

:42:19.:42:21.

you where everyone would be. That was planned. To the very last

:42:22.:42:27.

detail. Nothing on that scale is happening in this election because

:42:28.:42:31.

this is a snap and action and everyone is flying by the seat of

:42:32.:42:34.

their pants and that is why you get the mistakes we have this morning

:42:35.:42:36.

about police numbers and why we have had compatible gaffes. We'll Labour

:42:37.:42:42.

ever win a landslide election again? -- will. Not long ago people were

:42:43.:42:51.

writing off the Tory government, and not that long ago people said he

:42:52.:42:53.

would never get a majority government again and I think that

:42:54.:42:56.

will be proven wrong very soon. Thanks for joining us.

:42:57.:43:00.

Can you be a Labour MP if you're not prepared to support your leader

:43:01.:43:03.

Well, Labour MP John Woodcock thinks so and he wants to be a Labour

:43:04.:43:08.

Here he is talking to some of his constituents.

:43:09.:43:11.

I don't think he would be fit to be Prime Minister,

:43:12.:43:14.

even if it were possible that it was going to happen.

:43:15.:43:17.

To try to reassure people like you and your son, I said,

:43:18.:43:23.

I will stand up for the Labour Party in Parliament.

:43:24.:43:29.

And so, if it came to it I wouldn't allow it to happen.

:43:30.:43:38.

John Woodcock joins us now. There is a meeting tomorrow, you worried you

:43:39.:43:47.

are about to be deselected? I hope not. Like so many of my Labour

:43:48.:43:55.

colleagues across the country, I have two, after recovering from the

:43:56.:43:58.

shock of the election being called, we have been working our socks off,

:43:59.:44:02.

we have thousands of leaflets going out. That are arriving on people's

:44:03.:44:09.

doorsteps as we speak. Paid for by the National Labour Party. I really

:44:10.:44:14.

hope that I will be able to go through with the other candidates to

:44:15.:44:20.

become the official candidate. How can you stand under a Labour banner

:44:21.:44:25.

when you will not back the Labour leader to run the country? It is

:44:26.:44:31.

highly unusual. I understand why it is controversial for many people but

:44:32.:44:37.

I just thought, I should be honest. People know what I think about

:44:38.:44:41.

Jeremy's leadership qualities. They have a particular view in the barrow

:44:42.:44:49.

about Jeremy Corbyn, -- in Barrow about Jeremy Corbyn, much of it to

:44:50.:44:58.

do with the views he has on Trident. So rather than being asked question

:44:59.:45:02.

and having to fight it, which I would have been doing physics weeks,

:45:03.:45:07.

I thought I would being honest. -- doing for six weeks. But you can't

:45:08.:45:15.

stand as a Labour Party candidate after what you have said. He would

:45:16.:45:21.

not have your vote. You would rather see Theresa May, Conservative, as

:45:22.:45:24.

Prime Minister, then Jeremy Corbyn? That is not what I have said. Who do

:45:25.:45:28.

you want to be Prime Minister? Labour will not win this election.

:45:29.:45:39.

The polls have been wrong before. The Tories are desperate to make you

:45:40.:45:42.

believe and the public believe that the polls are wrong. They're going

:45:43.:45:46.

around saying it's really on a knife edge. No, the reason they do that is

:45:47.:45:51.

because they want an absolute whitewash. They want hundreds of

:45:52.:45:56.

Tory MPs coming back. The question is not actually who will be Prime

:45:57.:46:00.

Minister. We know that Theresa May will come back. It is whether

:46:01.:46:05.

communities like Barrow in Furness, communities across the north of

:46:06.:46:08.

England will retain a strong Labour voice rather than a Tory nodding

:46:09.:46:13.

dog. When you say Jeremy Corbyn will not have your vote, what does that

:46:14.:46:18.

mean in practice? In the purely theoretical circumstances, because

:46:19.:46:23.

this is not going to happen, but, if it came to it, if there was a

:46:24.:46:29.

majority I would demand Labour picked a leader who could better

:46:30.:46:34.

command a majority in the House of Parliament and could be a better

:46:35.:46:40.

Prime Minister. As I say, Jo, this is a completely theoretical

:46:41.:46:43.

circumstances because we know that the Tories have called this election

:46:44.:46:47.

because they are 20 points ahead in the polls. Would you stand as an

:46:48.:46:51.

independent? I want to be on the Labour ticket. I want to be the

:46:52.:46:55.

official candidate. I have poured all my resources into that. We had a

:46:56.:47:01.

really difficult meeting with my local party members. As you can mam,

:47:02.:47:06.

strong views were aired. We calm out of that meeting resolving to do the

:47:07.:47:10.

very best we could to keep the Tories out. It is ironic, many of

:47:11.:47:15.

the people who talk about a progressive alliance, it seems to be

:47:16.:47:20.

the ones who want to stop me being the candidate in Barrow in Furness

:47:21.:47:24.

and hand the seat on the plate to the Tories... John Woodcock, I'll

:47:25.:47:29.

have to finish it there. Philip, can he really be the Labour candidate?

:47:30.:47:34.

This election? I'm ask the sceptical. That question of who you

:47:35.:47:39.

back is not unimportant. You need to decide which party and leader? When

:47:40.:47:44.

it comes to a vote of confidence, who do you back even if it is

:47:45.:47:50.

theoretical. John Woodcock's not saying much more than #3r50i6 Attlee

:47:51.:47:57.

other Labour MPs are saying. There is a difference between private and

:47:58.:48:02.

publicly? Absolutely. A lot of people on the doorsteps are saying

:48:03.:48:06.

Jeremy Corbyn will not be Prime Minister. You can have me as your

:48:07.:48:09.

Labour MP. I'll stand up for the area. You don't want a massive

:48:10.:48:15.

Conservative majority. In that sense, a lot offed woodcock message

:48:16.:48:20.

is being said by Labour MPs on doorsteps across the country. You

:48:21.:48:25.

says speblingt he's gone too far. You' just being honest, perhaps more

:48:26.:48:30.

so than some of his Labour... I know other Labour MPs said they'd rather

:48:31.:48:34.

have Theresa May as Prime Minister than Jeremy Corbyn. They won't say

:48:35.:48:38.

that publicly. He's not saying that. No, he didn't say that, nor did

:48:39.:48:42.

Neil. Any Labour Prime Minister is better than a Tory Prime Minister.

:48:43.:48:47.

You've spoken to Labour candidates who would pre-Theresa May?

:48:48.:48:52.

Privately. But it is a purely theoretical question. We will know

:48:53.:48:53.

that in June. Now, on Thursday there are

:48:54.:49:01.

local elections across the UK. In Scotland, the SNP hope to make

:49:02.:49:04.

further headway in places that have and a resurgent Scottish

:49:05.:49:07.

Conservative Party Adam's been Glasgow to

:49:08.:49:09.

gauge the parties' prospects. The crown jewel of Scottish local

:49:10.:49:13.

government, the home The City Council controls an annual

:49:14.:49:16.

budget of ?2.2 billion and is a big influence on the lives of every

:49:17.:49:22.

Glaswegian. Labour have been in charge

:49:23.:49:24.

since the year of my birth, 1980, but the SNP are desperate

:49:25.:49:28.

to seize control. Let's take our vision to the people

:49:29.:49:32.

and let's do this, OK. The SNP has tried and failed

:49:33.:49:37.

to win here before. Now the big idea on the

:49:38.:49:40.

leaflets is people power. Giving each ward

:49:41.:49:44.

?1 million to spend. If they wanted to run a project

:49:45.:49:47.

in the community they can go to the community council

:49:48.:49:50.

and they can make that decision themselves, the people,

:49:51.:49:56.

the local community. Where they didn't have

:49:57.:49:59.

that chance before. After four decades in charge,

:50:00.:50:01.

Labour is trying to look It's continuity, of trying to change

:50:02.:50:06.

and transform the city of Glasgow. We've invested heavily in our school

:50:07.:50:13.

estate and we've radically transformed our housing estate

:50:14.:50:16.

and we've got ambitions now to have a technological revolution

:50:17.:50:21.

in the schools where youngsters will have access to tablets

:50:22.:50:24.

and iPads to make sure they can get The 454,000 voters on the River

:50:25.:50:27.

Clyde make the choice using a proportional system called

:50:28.:50:33.

the single transferable vote, STV, which means the other

:50:34.:50:37.

parties do get a look in. It means there are no

:50:38.:50:43.

votes which are wasted. People can have perceptions

:50:44.:50:49.

in different elections that their vote might not

:50:50.:50:52.

count for anything. Which means it's super exciting

:50:53.:50:54.

and it's very important that everybody gets to the polls

:50:55.:50:58.

and makes their voice heard. One-party politics is not a good

:50:59.:51:00.

idea and I think we're seeing that nationally at the moment,

:51:01.:51:03.

having one party in control, in the Last time round the Tories won

:51:04.:51:06.

a single councillor, but this time they're trying

:51:07.:51:11.

to reach out beyond leafy Handing leaflets,

:51:12.:51:15.

speaking to people. Are there wards that you would not

:51:16.:51:20.

have campaigned in before? We're campaigning right

:51:21.:51:23.

across the city for every vote. And I think for the first

:51:24.:51:26.

time people are coming What ever happens here in Glasgow,

:51:27.:51:29.

the result will tell us Have Labour gone as

:51:30.:51:33.

low as they can go? Have the SNP gone

:51:34.:51:37.

as high as they can? How strong is the Tory

:51:38.:51:39.

resurgence here in Scotland? All really useful information ahead

:51:40.:51:43.

of the general election in June. Let's pick up on those questions.

:51:44.:51:59.

Ruth Davidson says peak has been reached. Labour holding on to

:52:00.:52:04.

Glasgow. Critically important to them. And the resurgence of the

:52:05.:52:11.

Tories general. Well, the interesting thing is they use STV.

:52:12.:52:17.

What it means in most councils in Scotland, you don't have single

:52:18.:52:20.

party control in the way you do across large swathes of England or

:52:21.:52:25.

Wales. Glasgow is one of the few councils left in Scotland which is

:52:26.:52:29.

single-party controlled by Labour. There was a lot of talk last time it

:52:30.:52:35.

was fought in 2012 it would fall and cease to be held by Labour. I think

:52:36.:52:39.

this time it is probably coming. There is an interesting question

:52:40.:52:43.

about whether Labour can cling on to the few councils it controls. And

:52:44.:52:47.

whether the SNP can do well enough to push for single party control in

:52:48.:52:52.

a few other councils. Broadly speaking, what's the impact of the

:52:53.:52:54.

General Election on these local elections? I think it is really

:52:55.:52:58.

weird. We are are we've hardly talked about them in the last couple

:52:59.:53:01.

of weeks. They've got completely drowned out by the General Election.

:53:02.:53:07.

You've all the Scotland, all of Wales and the English shire counties

:53:08.:53:14.

up for election. The Metro mayors. A lot going on. It is about 5,000

:53:15.:53:24.

council seats in total. One is it will tell much less telling about

:53:25.:53:28.

the general election. They are not that good a read across. And second,

:53:29.:53:32.

the impact the General Election will have on the local elections because

:53:33.:53:35.

it is being fought in the middle of this general election campaign. That

:53:36.:53:41.

we don't know yet. In is sense, it is being overshadowed, do you think

:53:42.:53:45.

more attention should be given to these local elections as an

:53:46.:53:50.

indication of what's coming a few weeks later? In their own right it

:53:51.:53:56.

is important. We should be focusing on it more because of not what it

:53:57.:53:59.

will tell us about the General Election but what it tells us about

:54:00.:54:01.

local government. George Osborne's first day

:54:02.:54:02.

as a Newspaper editor, Boris Johnson gets a taste

:54:03.:54:04.

of his own medicine and a council seat in Wales

:54:05.:54:07.

where no one's standing. Here's Ellie with the Daily Politics

:54:08.:54:09.

desk of election news. Theresa May was busy this weekend

:54:10.:54:13.

but then, so were the people Don't worry, there's still five

:54:14.:54:16.

weeks to find someone at home. Amber Rudd's been tweeting how

:54:17.:54:23.

excited she is to be reselected for further chances to look

:54:24.:54:26.

awkward in high vis. Strangely calm as the Lady of May

:54:27.:54:29.

and terrified driving a boat. Elsewhere, in election news,

:54:30.:54:33.

finally the purple smoke emerged over Hartlepool and the Ukip leader

:54:34.:54:39.

Paul Nuttall announced he would be standing as a candidate

:54:40.:54:42.

125 miles away in Boston Skegness. Now, remember Boris Johnson last

:54:43.:54:48.

week calling Jeremy Corbyn... You're is a muddle

:54:49.:54:51.

headed mugwubble... Today, Labour's Deputy Leader Tom

:54:52.:55:01.

Watson labelled the foreign secondary a Kaagy handed

:55:02.:55:06.

cheese-headed fob doodle. An election of sensible debate and

:55:07.:55:10.

dictionaries! A dictionary might have been useful for whoever wrote

:55:11.:55:16.

this Labour campaign leaflet. Blocking unstainable housing and

:55:17.:55:25.

sporting fcilities... He'll maybe take comfort in knowing his ex-wife

:55:26.:55:30.

Karen failed in her own nomination. Gloria has been told when the

:55:31.:55:34.

election is following this campaign video. The choice of the 9th June.

:55:35.:55:39.

Anyone wanting to vote for her or anyone else on June 9thth might want

:55:40.:55:44.

to consider getting in a day earlier on election day! George Osborne's

:55:45.:55:49.

starting an another new role today as editor of the London Evening

:55:50.:55:53.

Standard. I have to get in there. We've a paper to get off stone.

:55:54.:55:59.

George, it's all done on computer these days. The Government won't

:56:00.:56:05.

appeal against the ruling on autodiesel cast before the General

:56:06.:56:10.

Election. It wanted to delay its air pollution strategy. And finally,

:56:11.:56:14.

spare a thought for the 1,000 or so people who live in Usker. A little

:56:15.:56:19.

place near Breck enwhere no-one wants to stand to be councillor. It

:56:20.:56:26.

looks set to be unrepresented as people got to the other pole pole,

:56:27.:56:28.

the local elections. Now, the sculptor Cornelia Parker

:56:29.:56:30.

has been commissioned as the official artist

:56:31.:56:32.

of the upcoming general election, the fifth time someone

:56:33.:56:34.

has been given the role. Cornelia is a former Turner Prize

:56:35.:56:36.

nominee famed for her installations including blowing up a shed and

:56:37.:56:39.

mimicking the house from the film Psycho on the roof of the

:56:40.:56:42.

Metropolitan Museum of Art She was selected by the Speaker's

:56:43.:56:44.

Advisory Committee on Works of Art, and will be given ?17,000

:56:45.:56:48.

to capture the essence The final artwork will join the

:56:49.:56:50.

Parliamentary Art Collection Why you did you want to accept the

:56:51.:56:58.

role? I was working in America a lot last year. I was obsessed with the

:56:59.:57:07.

American elections. Then, also the Le Pen, Macron, it seems like a very

:57:08.:57:12.

pivotal moment with Brexit. I only knew a week ago I was up for this.

:57:13.:57:18.

The whole snap election and snap... You weren't aLen in your surprise.

:57:19.:57:23.

There were many others. Any ideas popped into your head in the week

:57:24.:57:26.

about how you might reflect it? There have been ideas. Some have not

:57:27.:57:34.

or are not repeatable. Shame, tell me about those afterwards. Anything

:57:35.:57:39.

bearing in mind you have to show this piece of work? I videoed

:57:40.:57:46.

Halloween on my iPhone in New York in relation to the American general

:57:47.:57:50.

elections. A full screen video piece. The politics of my work is

:57:51.:57:56.

open to interpretation. It is there. Bubbling through? It is. Can we

:57:57.:58:01.

expect something explosive to coin a phrase? I don't know. I heard David

:58:02.:58:05.

Cameron's got a nice new shed. He has. I'm taking photographs daily of

:58:06.:58:12.

mundane things which might have a political slant. I've just lost my

:58:13.:58:18.

social media virginity. Congratulations! I'm doing

:58:19.:58:24.

Instagram. Election artist 2017 if anyone wants to check in on my

:58:25.:58:28.

images. What is the point of election art? I don't know. I

:58:29.:58:34.

suppose it is a bit like war art. You're embedded somehow. You observe

:58:35.:58:39.

and reflect on it, I suppose. The work goes on display in accept. I'll

:58:40.:58:45.

have time to look back on it all and work out what's happening. Let me

:58:46.:58:47.

draw this to a close! The 1pm news is starting

:58:48.:58:49.

over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 1130 tomorrow

:58:50.:58:53.

with Andrew for live coverage This is perhaps

:58:54.:58:56.

the most unstable moment

:58:57.:59:26.

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