11/05/2017 Daily Politics


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11/05/2017

Andrew Neil is joined by Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood. They look at the leaked Labour manifesto and the Conservatives' announcements on defence spending.


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Afternoon, folks, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Labour's draft general election manifesto has been leaked.

:00:53.:00:54.

As the party's leadership meets to agree the final version,

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how damaging is the leak and what does the document tell us

:00:58.:01:00.

about Jeremy Corbyn's vision for Britain?

:01:01.:01:01.

The Conservatives are promising to increase defence spending

:01:02.:01:03.

for the next five years but senior retired military figures

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say our armed forces face a funding crisis.

:01:07.:01:09.

The Green Party is launching its environmental policy,

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while the Liberal Democrats promise to take 50,000 more Syrian refugees.

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We'll bring you all the latest from the campaign trail.

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I've brought the Moodbox to the island of Anglesey to test

:01:23.:01:24.

the Theresa May effect in this part of Wales.

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When I say the name Theresa May, which words pop into your head?

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All that in the next hour of this Daily Politics election special,

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and I'm joined for all of it by the Plaid Cymru

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Hopefully she's bought a photocopy of her party's manifesto so we can

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So first today, Labour was meant to be approving its general election

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manifesto at a meeting today ahead of its launch next week.

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Unfortunately it's been launched for them, when the Telegraph,

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Mirror and then the BBC obtained a copy of the 20,000-word,

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Labour's shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, was asked

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Do you know who leaked your manifesto? No, it is disappointing.

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We are having a meeting. Do you recognise the policies?

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Renationalising the railways? We have a democratic process in the

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party and we will decide it and we will launch it on Tuesday. I have

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got to catch my bus. Do you realise it is such a social manifesto?

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Do you realise it is such a social manifesto?

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The clause 5 meeting you heard him talking about is a gathering

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of senior figures from around the Labour movement.

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They have just started meeting to approve this manifesto,

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The leaked manifesto includes plans to renationalise the railways,

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parts of the energy industry and the Royal Mail.

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It also says that a Labour government would scrap

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university tuition fees, provide an extra ?6 billion a year

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for the NHS and borrow ?250 billion for infrastructure spending.

:03:22.:03:23.

The leaked manifesto says there will be no target

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on immigration numbers and refuses to make false

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And the Labour Party would rule out leaving

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The document also pledges to bring in an immediate energy price cap

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It includes plans to renew the Trident nuclear weapons

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programme but makes it clear a Labour Prime Minister

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would be extremely cautious about using the deterrent.

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If the leaked document is correct, Labour will promise significant

:03:52.:03:55.

increases in corporation tax and inheritance tax.

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The voting age will be reduced to 16 and trade union rights

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So that is just some of what is in it.

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We will see what the final document looks like next Tuesday.

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The clause five meeting may make some changes.

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Now we are joined by the Sun's Tom Newton Dunn

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and the Guardian's Anushka Asthana, a black mark for both

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of them as neither of their papers had the leak.

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What can I say? Does the leak matter? Is it embarrassing? I want

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to correct you, we also had the leak. Perhaps a few minutes after

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the others. We did not have it. It is embarrassing, it is clearly

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embarrassing and everyone is trying to ask who leaked it, conspiracy

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theories about whether it came from the leader's office or the Shadow

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Cabinet or perhaps from union figures who were able to look at it.

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So many people had the draft. Actually, people would say it was a

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tight circle, but I believe they showed it to a number of union

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liaison officials who had their iPhones out and started taking the

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odd picture. We are talking about the Labour manifesto now, so maybe

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it gets more publicity as a result of this. Is it a problem because

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they are not controlling the discussion now? The glass half full

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award of the year goes to Andrew Quinn this morning because he said

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at least we are talking about labour today. This simply was not a

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planned, sneaky PR operation for two good reasons. One is you lose all

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control of your message and you allow rivals to brand back to the

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1970s rather than forward and modernising which is what John

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McDonnell would like. Second, you will always get your big for PR.

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Landing this in a way that looks shambolic corresponds to all the

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focus groups that the Tories were doing and the one word that always

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comes back at the doorstep when asking about Jeremy Corbyn, one is

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Marxist and the other one is a shambles. You are playing perfectly

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into the opposition's narrative. People will be interested in some of

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the policies and some of them on their own may be quite popular.

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Focus groups may suggest others are unpopular. But when you go through

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it, it is a relentless list of spending commitments. We are doing

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this, tuition fees, 250 billion for infrastructure, 8 billion for social

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care, 6 billion for the NHS, and on and on. If you are a party that has

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a problem with tax and spend reputation, this does not resolve

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it. I think you are right, that is one of the things they want to try

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to show, this fiscal credibility rule, the day-to-day balancing.

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There are a lot of spending commitments in there which are quite

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eye watering. The 250 billion to be clear is money they would borrow in

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order to invest in infrastructure. They have not set out all of their

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tax plans, so we know they will reverse corporation tax and

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inheritance tax. We know they will tax people who owed over 80 grand,

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we do not know by how much. I think it is interesting that Tom said the

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leak had suggested people would brand it as a 1970s manifesto.

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However Labour had put this out, that might have been... It is

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something the critics would always charge them with. You have to break

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down what the offer is. One is who does not want to get rid of tuition

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fees or free school meals for everybody? Then there is the

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ideological big state taking back control. The problem with the retail

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offer is, which everyone wants to vote for, if you can only get people

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to vote for you if it is credible to deliver it and they think that. The

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credibility problem is still Jeremy Corbyn's biggest headache. What do

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you make of what you have seen? Well, I wonder how much of it

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applies right across the entire British state. The Labour first

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Minister in Wales has already distanced himself from this

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manifesto. They are launching a different campaign in Wales,

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recycling pledges that are already devolved that they promised ahead of

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last year's assembly election. Some of the policies in this leaked

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manifesto Labour in Wales have had an opportunity to implement those

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policies and have chosen not to do so. Plaid Cymru has put down motions

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to end zero hours contracts in the public sector several times and

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Labour have voted us down. They have had an opportunity to create an

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alternative public Royal Mail in Wales. We put a motion proposal to

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them in 2013 for that and they have altered that. The same with rail

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privatisation. The franchise for the Welsh rail system is coming up for

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renewal in 2018 and all the companies bidding for that our

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private sector companies. There is no Welsh public sector company in

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the bidding. There are a range of missed opportunities as far as

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Labour are concerned from a Welsh perspective. In terms of funding we

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know about the corporation tax rise, although we do not know how much

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that will raise. We know about the capital gains tax rise and that is a

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much smaller sum, and we know about inheritance. But there is a lot in

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the draft about major unfunded spending commitments. A lot now

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seems to hang on by how much those earning more than ?80,000 a year

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will pay more tax. Do you think they will tell us what it means all will

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it stick with the formula that those who own more than ?50,000 will have

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to pay more? Senior figures in the party say we will know what that

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figure is, that is the one thing we will get when the manifesto is

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launched. It feels it will have to be rather large. Only 3% of people

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and that amount of money. 5%. 5% is the figure they say, but over 80 it

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is less. The number is not the issue. The issue is how important

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they have already become to the tax base. There are only 1.2 million of

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them in this category, maybe 1.3, but they account for almost 50% of

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all income tax receipts, so they are crucial to the tax base already. The

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danger is if the burden gets bigger and bigger, you may not have them at

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all. Everyone knows that behaviour is affected by tax rates and if

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there is suddenly a whopping amount above 80,000, what will happen? We

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will have to wait for those figures. Do you think we will get them? The

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actual workings of what will happen to the 40% rate? Will there be a 50

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or 60% rate? We will get the above 80 grand rate. I doubt they will get

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into income tax thresholds which affect lower rate and middle rate

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taxpayers will stop they have not said they will touch them? They have

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said they will not move up the actual base rate and they have not

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talked about thresholds. The Tories have talked about moving both

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thresholds. The clause five meeting is just

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getting under way. Let's have a look at what Len McCluskey had to say. A

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number of the policies you will see formerly emerged today are really

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exciting. The British electorate can only look at that rather than the

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obsession that you people have about the leadership of the Labour Party.

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I think we could have some interesting... An extra tax for high

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wage earners? The overall policies that will emerge will be in favour

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of ordinary working people and that is the key. Naturally we asked to

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speak to the Labour Party this morning given the leak of the draft,

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but we were told most of the significant figures were in the

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clause five meeting and no one else could speak to us.

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We are joined by the former communications strategy member for

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the party. Is the leak embarrassing or irrelevant? Embarrassing, I do

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not know who has done it and for what reason. There are three

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different conspiracy theories. One is it was done by somebody to

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undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Another it was done by somebody close to him to

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make it look as if they were trying to undermine him and the third is

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get it out now, so it is harder to roll back some of the wilder ideas.

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We do not know whether this clause five committee will be that active.

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Do you think there could be a lot of changes or will it have been

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preagreed by and large and changes will be at the margins? Last time, I

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can only speak for 2015, we introduced another page in the

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manifesto after clause five which caused some consternation at the

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time. What was in it? Our budget responsibility lock so everything

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was costed. There may be something like that this time as well. What do

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you make of it over or as a manifesto? Our match at the last

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election was big reform, not big spending. There is some big spending

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there. That said, properly funded social care, NHS and schools are

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what Labour governments are about. It is what Tony Blair's government

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was about. There is nothing here as extreme as leaving the single market

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at any cost, bringing back grammar schools and nothing as dishonest as

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promising to cut immigration when you know you cannot do it. There was

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a labour leader who famously said that socialism was the language of

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priorities. When you read the draft, it is a list of spending

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commitments. It is not a list of priorities. We would like to do the

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following, but we cannot afford to do it all in one parliament or

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perhaps two, but this is what we will do. That is not in the draft.

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We do not yet know how they plan to fund it or if they will set out

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detailed funding plans. The most biggest problem is they seem to be

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ducking and diving on Brexit and membership of the single market and

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immigration. This is what this election is about. Theresa May is

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seeking a massive, personal mandate to do whatever she wants on Brexit

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and the Labour Party has a duty and an opportunity to hold her feet to

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the fire and they are changing the subject.

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But the draft manifesto has very little to say about numbers? It says

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it is prioritising jobs and if that is the case, you prioritise the

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single market ahead of getting rid of freedom of movement. But they

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have given up with that idea. I think that is a mistake. Be seen to

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be in opposition, mirror image of Theresa May's and the Labour

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manifesto seems to be saying that a bad deal would be better than no

:15:52.:15:55.

deal. I think the Labour Party is saying that if Theresa May comes up

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with a bad deal, they are going to vote against it. No, no, this is a

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manifesto for power, assuming that they will be doing the negotiations.

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They say that if they are in that position, they will not contemplate

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not doing a deal. There will not be a situation where they will do no

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deal. So logically that means that you are prepared to accept a bad

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deal rather than no deal. No, it means that you try very hard to get

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a good deal. Theresa May's negotiating position is essentially,

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if I do not get what I want, I will shoot myself. That is not a great

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negotiating position. Isn't it? Don't you need the other side, and

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Brussels are a master at negotiations, just look at Greece

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who had to go through it all, don't you have to let them know that there

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are some things on which you do not negotiate openly and have give and

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take, we will walk away. Walking away from the table, unequal

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negotiation, is not an option. If we walk away from the table, we go off

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the cliff. It is a disaster for the economy and a disaster for our

:17:02.:17:05.

country. We have to get a good deal and work with Europe so that both

:17:06.:17:08.

sides think they get something out of this. At the moment it is being

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done as he was going to win and who is going to lose. But a lot of what

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is said now at the start of the negotiations will seem irrelevant in

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a couple of months. And that is precisely the problem. This is why

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it is so interesting. Theresa May is seeking a mandate to strengthen her

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hand. When she does not want any scrutiny or debate about what her

:17:28.:17:30.

plan is for Brexit. It is fundamentally dishonest. Labour's

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reputation, which has been undermined in 2015, is that it is a

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profligate party, a tax-and-spend party. And that it is into borrowing

:17:43.:17:48.

too much as well. In what way does this manifesto counteract that

:17:49.:17:53.

image? Well, we will have to see because it is a draft manifesto.

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Someone said to me this morning it was a draft suicide note. I am

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saying it is a draft manifesto. But we don't know who they are going to

:18:02.:18:06.

play with us yet. We know that they are saying that everything will be

:18:07.:18:09.

properly costed but your question is a fair question. Why are we

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introducing that extra page of the manifesto? It was to counteract

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that. And we earned credit for that, that very strict policy. And it is

:18:20.:18:22.

ironic because the Tories went into the last election saying that the

:18:23.:18:25.

only thing that mattered was clearing the deficit and balancing

:18:26.:18:29.

the books. And now it doesn't matter. So when you talk about

:18:30.:18:32.

credibility, we have to remember the Tories have promised a lot on

:18:33.:18:36.

clearing the deficit and they have not done it. They have cut it, but

:18:37.:18:41.

they have got nowhere near. They have promised that in both

:18:42.:18:44.

elections. Putting aside the Welsh Labour Party, you are a socialist, I

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think. Is not a lot of this which is attractive socialism for you? There

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is no doubt that the cuts that we have seen to public services over

:18:54.:18:59.

the last, well, since the banking crash in 2008 effectively, as

:19:00.:19:01.

decimated public services in some places. They have stripped out

:19:02.:19:06.

really valuable community assets in the communities that I represent, we

:19:07.:19:10.

have lost libraries, play facilities for children. And you need to invest

:19:11.:19:15.

in public services. So you would generally approve of this? It is not

:19:16.:19:22.

my manifesto and I'm not defending it, because we will be publishing

:19:23.:19:28.

our own manifesto. Why have you lot in the -- why have you not link to

:19:29.:19:31.

your manifesto? We are a bit tighter on these things. The principle of

:19:32.:19:35.

investment in public services and public sector workers is something

:19:36.:19:38.

we can definitely support. Is this an election winning manifesto? We

:19:39.:19:43.

will have to wait and see. Well, that is a definitive answer. I tell

:19:44.:19:47.

you what, it may be a manifesto with one eye on a leadership contest

:19:48.:19:51.

after the election rather than a general election. Explain what you

:19:52.:19:54.

mean about that. Jeremy Corbyn's people seem to be going round and

:19:55.:19:57.

the test of whether Jeremy Corbyn stays on now is whether he matches

:19:58.:20:01.

Ed Miliband's percentage share of the vote. It is the wrong test. The

:20:02.:20:05.

last leader of any major political party to stay on after an election

:20:06.:20:07.

was Neil Kinnock and he cut the Tory majority by 40. If

:20:08.:20:27.

Jeremy Corbyn does that, we are out of Parliament and of course he stays

:20:28.:20:30.

on, but that is the minimum bar to reach. We seem to be operating on

:20:31.:20:32.

the assumption that the Tories are going to win. I can read the polls

:20:33.:20:35.

as well as anyone else can and you would be mad to say anything

:20:36.:20:38.

different. Thank you very much for talking to us. We would have had no

:20:39.:20:41.

one else to talk to about this if you had not come in. Emma Vardy is

:20:42.:20:44.

outside Labour's meeting with more news. Our daily round-up of the rest

:20:45.:20:45.

of today 's election campaign. Well, this is one of the key dates

:20:46.:20:49.

in Labour's general election campaign, the meeting at which the

:20:50.:20:53.

party signs off its policies to go into the manifesto. But of course

:20:54.:20:58.

today it rather feels that the cat is out of the bag because of that

:20:59.:21:03.

almighty leak last night. In the past hour, senior Labour Party

:21:04.:21:07.

members have been arriving here. The meeting got underway about 20

:21:08.:21:13.

minutes ago and is being chaired by Jeremy Corbyn. But the star

:21:14.:21:17.

performer himself failed to turn up to an earlier engagement today. With

:21:18.:21:20.

that and more, here is the campaign round-up.

:21:21.:21:21.

Jeremy Corbyn pulled out of Labour's election poster launch this morning

:21:22.:21:28.

after the party's draft manifesto was leaked to the press.

:21:29.:21:31.

As the poster was unveiled on the South bank in London,

:21:32.:21:33.

election coordinator Ian Lavery stepped in.

:21:34.:21:37.

Mr Corbyn is doing the print work for a very important

:21:38.:21:40.

meeting this afternoon, the clause five meeting.

:21:41.:21:46.

Meanwhile, there was a ringing endorsement for Jeremy Corbyn

:21:47.:21:51.

from what he thought was the grime artist Stormzy on the phone.

:21:52.:22:05.

A prankster pretending to be the Corbyn supporter

:22:06.:22:09.

rapper managed to be put through to the man himself.

:22:10.:22:22.

Comedian Hayden Prowse was behind the joke.

:22:23.:22:33.

They have campaigned for Cornwall every election since 1970,

:22:34.:22:36.

but now the Cornish nationalists have said they will not

:22:37.:22:38.

be putting forward any candidates this time around.

:22:39.:22:41.

The party blamed the timing of the 2017 general election,

:22:42.:22:44.

saying it was impractical to finance a meaningful campaign.

:22:45.:22:53.

In the world of internet fandom, we've had the Beliebers,

:22:54.:22:56.

and the news craze taking over is the Mayllennials.

:22:57.:22:58.

Not all of them agree with her policies, but young women

:22:59.:23:00.

who love Theresa May are sharing images of her on the net.

:23:01.:23:08.

Fishing was a big issue in the referendum campaign.

:23:09.:23:10.

And Ukip were keen to keep it on the agenda today.

:23:11.:23:14.

We are an island nation and control of our waters has been

:23:15.:23:20.

Setting out their aim to pull out of the EU's Common Fisheries Policy.

:23:21.:23:29.

Some of the Labour heavyweights gave a few lively responses, I am told,

:23:30.:23:35.

as they arrived here earlier and were pressed by the media scrum

:23:36.:23:39.

about that leaked manifesto. Dave Anderson accused the media of

:23:40.:23:44.

handling stolen goods, while Margaret Beckett, when she was asked

:23:45.:23:48.

whether she was the one who leaked it, apparently responded by saying,

:23:49.:23:52.

don't be ridiculous, I haven't bloody read it yet. I am told that

:23:53.:23:57.

the Tory manifesto was being kept on a much tighter leash. Will it stay

:23:58.:24:03.

that way? We will see. Thanks, Emma. We will see. Hopefully

:24:04.:24:09.

that starts a trend that all the manifestos will be leaked and we

:24:10.:24:10.

will have more to talk about. The Conservatives have this morning

:24:11.:24:12.

pledged above inflation increases to defence spending in every year

:24:13.:24:16.

of the next Parliament in order to meet a NATO commitment to spend

:24:17.:24:19.

2% of GDP on defence. We are setting out in our manifesto

:24:20.:24:26.

our spending for the NHS and schools and other important areas,

:24:27.:24:30.

but the most important duty of all for any government

:24:31.:24:33.

is to keep our country safe and that is why we are recommitting

:24:34.:24:37.

today to the 2% target that Nato has set to a growing defence budget that

:24:38.:24:42.

gives our armed forces the equipment Well we asked to speak to a defence

:24:43.:24:46.

minister this morning, none was available, but I am joined

:24:47.:24:54.

by the Conservative James Cleverly. Thank you for joining us. Michael

:24:55.:25:02.

Fallon says that Jeremy Corbyn is essentially a pacifist and he would

:25:03.:25:05.

make a dangerous leader, saying that the use of our Armed Forces would be

:25:06.:25:10.

a last resort. What is wrong with military action being a last resort?

:25:11.:25:15.

Well, it depends on your definition of what a last resort is. We have

:25:16.:25:18.

already seen Jeremy Corbyn saying that he would be unwilling to use

:25:19.:25:21.

defence technology like drone aircraft to take out the leader of

:25:22.:25:26.

Isis. If you do not think that eradicating the leader of one of the

:25:27.:25:30.

most violent death cults in the world is an action of last resort,

:25:31.:25:34.

then I think we have a question about definition. But in general was

:25:35.:25:38.

it not a wise position that we only commit military power, the lives of

:25:39.:25:42.

our men and women in the military, as a last resort? Of course, but it

:25:43.:25:46.

is about how you define what a last resort is? Again, we have questions

:25:47.:25:56.

over Jeremy Corbyn's commitment to British soldiers actually using

:25:57.:25:57.

deadly force in defence of themselves. If we have a national

:25:58.:26:02.

leader that the British Armed Forces do not feel is going to back them

:26:03.:26:05.

when they have to make difficult decisions, that puts them in a

:26:06.:26:09.

difficult place. Well, I think in some ways he was misinterpreted what

:26:10.:26:14.

he had said. But sending thousands and thousands of troops to invade

:26:15.:26:21.

Iraq, as this country did in 2003, that is not a last resort. Well,

:26:22.:26:26.

look, we can kick around the definitions... And Mr Corbyn was

:26:27.:26:31.

against it. But the really important thing is... But you have said that

:26:32.:26:39.

it matters, and is sending another 100,000 troops to Afghanistan in a

:26:40.:26:42.

war that seems never-ending, 16 years the allies have been there, is

:26:43.:26:47.

that a last resort? Well, this announcement today is not about the

:26:48.:26:50.

decisions as to whether to deploy or not to deploy, it is about

:26:51.:26:55.

reasserting our commitment to match our little promise, that's 2% of

:26:56.:26:59.

GDP, and to increase defence spending by half a percent of

:27:00.:27:04.

inflation until 2020. But we are about to send another hundred troops

:27:05.:27:08.

to Afghanistan. Have we learned nothing in the past 16 years? 100

:27:09.:27:12.

troops? What difference will that make in Afghanistan. British troops

:27:13.:27:17.

are incredibly good and we have a fantastic track record. That is not

:27:18.:27:22.

the issue. We have a track record of training local troops to defend

:27:23.:27:25.

their own country and we are doing it in Afghanistan. We have done it

:27:26.:27:28.

in a number of places. But the Afghanistan troops are taking

:27:29.:27:30.

horrendous casualties at the moment and despite our training, and the

:27:31.:27:38.

American training. And our training will help the local troops to reduce

:27:39.:27:42.

their casualties. They haven't for 16 years and the casualties are

:27:43.:27:45.

getting worse. Is that a last resort? Why are we doing this? Well,

:27:46.:27:53.

because we have got to maintain our presence, a global presence round

:27:54.:27:57.

the world. We have to support our allies when they are taking the

:27:58.:28:01.

fight to international terrorism. That is a one standing commitment of

:28:02.:28:03.

the British government and the British Armed Forces and I do not

:28:04.:28:07.

think that any credible but it will party is putting a question mark

:28:08.:28:13.

over that. The party boasts of meeting the 2% Nato commitment but

:28:14.:28:16.

it is bit Dylan McGeouch that of a fiddle. It contains a lot of things

:28:17.:28:20.

that have nothing to do with core defence spending. Well, the defence

:28:21.:28:25.

Dylan McGeouch edition we use for 2% is the definition agreed by Nato and

:28:26.:28:29.

seeing as it is a commitment to the British government has made to our

:28:30.:28:32.

Armed Forces to the population, and most importantly to our Nato allies

:28:33.:28:36.

is Nato are happy with the definition, then I am happy with the

:28:37.:28:40.

definition. But it includes military pensions, which is a big

:28:41.:28:44.

expenditure. How does that help? Well, if Nato are happy with the

:28:45.:28:48.

definition, I am happy. And if you want to recruit and retain service

:28:49.:28:52.

personnel, it is important that they know they will be looked after when

:28:53.:28:56.

they retire. It is an important part of what the military prescribes as

:28:57.:28:59.

the moral component. How big a hole is there in our defence spending

:29:00.:29:03.

because the fall in the value of the pound since Brexit has made the

:29:04.:29:08.

purchase of new aircraft carriers more expensive, the upgrading of

:29:09.:29:12.

Apache helicopters, the new Trident missile defence, that is all going

:29:13.:29:17.

up in price. Well, you will inevitably have cost increases when

:29:18.:29:22.

you have currency fluctuations but these programmes are multi decade

:29:23.:29:27.

programmes. And I have no doubt at all that at some point in the future

:29:28.:29:31.

the value of the pound will increase and the relative costs will vary. So

:29:32.:29:39.

over the lifetime costs of these equipmentss, these currencies will

:29:40.:29:42.

be for trading. -- the lifetime costs of this equipment. You have

:29:43.:29:53.

cut spending to the lowest since the Napoleonic Wars. Sir Richard

:29:54.:29:56.

Sheriff, the Nato supreme commander since 2014, he says that he would

:29:57.:30:03.

question whether the UK could deploy a division for war, a division. I

:30:04.:30:06.

think that is highly unlikely, he says. That is quite a criticism of

:30:07.:30:11.

your party's record. We could not deploy a division? We are spending

:30:12.:30:15.

35 or ?36 billion a year on defence and we could not deploy a division?

:30:16.:30:23.

Well, I am not going to agree with those estimations. I do not

:30:24.:30:31.

criticise various people for making their own assessments but we have

:30:32.:30:38.

seen a significant investment in cutting-edge technology. Apache

:30:39.:30:48.

helicopters, Ajax... But it is not much use if you do not have the

:30:49.:30:51.

people to go into the battlefield. Numbers are important, of course

:30:52.:30:55.

they are, but in an increasingly sophisticated technology driven

:30:56.:31:02.

battle space, raw numbers are not always the most important metric and

:31:03.:31:06.

making sure that our Armed Forces, on sea, land or a, have got the

:31:07.:31:09.

absolute cutting-edge equipment is really important. And we are

:31:10.:31:14.

maintaining our equipment programme. Land or air. Would you support 2%

:31:15.:31:20.

GDP on defence? I think the priority within defence spending is wrong. I

:31:21.:31:26.

think I see no sense in committing ?200 billion to replacing Trident,

:31:27.:31:29.

for example, when there are soldiers without basic equipment, when we

:31:30.:31:34.

have people coming out of the Armed Forces with poor access to mental

:31:35.:31:35.

health programmes and so on. But would you take any savings from

:31:36.:31:47.

Trident? It is only about 3% of our defence spending. Would you spend it

:31:48.:31:54.

outside defence? Some would go to redeploying in the defence budget.

:31:55.:31:58.

We need to put more emphasis on intelligence and think about the

:31:59.:32:01.

kind of threat we face today which are different to what they were 20

:32:02.:32:05.

years ago. Have we not have a massive increase in the intelligence

:32:06.:32:10.

budget in the last five years? We cannot take our eye off the ball.

:32:11.:32:14.

They are recruiting hundreds of people. What I am saying is

:32:15.:32:19.

priorities are wrong and to invest in nuclear weapons systems that very

:32:20.:32:25.

few leaders would actually use, I cannot envisage the circumstances

:32:26.:32:28.

under which anyone would actually press that button, why would we even

:32:29.:32:32.

consider spending ?200 billion on that when there are other things? I

:32:33.:32:37.

mentioned earlier about public services. There are many things that

:32:38.:32:40.

need investment and I do not think that is one of them. Michael Fallon

:32:41.:32:47.

also said, this is the final question, that he attacked Labour

:32:48.:32:51.

when they said they would stop sending arms to the Saudis until

:32:52.:32:56.

they can prove they are willing and able to comply with international,

:32:57.:32:59.

humanitarian law. The government said it would continue to send

:33:00.:33:03.

weapons to Saudi Arabia. What is wrong with trying to find out if

:33:04.:33:06.

they are complying with international, humanitarian law? The

:33:07.:33:12.

principle is the same principle you would have in any circumstances like

:33:13.:33:17.

this. You cannot pre-empt the outcome of a review like that. I

:33:18.:33:23.

think Saudi Arabia are, and have been for a long time an incredibly

:33:24.:33:28.

important regional ally. They have been at the forefront of the fight

:33:29.:33:32.

against terrorism. The intelligence we share with them has kept British

:33:33.:33:38.

people save both in Saudi Arabia and around the world. You do not have a

:33:39.:33:42.

review on whether they are complying with international, humanitarian

:33:43.:33:47.

law. You just sell them regardless. The relationship Britain has with

:33:48.:33:51.

Saudi Arabia is a long-standing one. But their humanitarian record does

:33:52.:33:56.

not match it. Do not put words in my mouth. I am not. I am saying we have

:33:57.:34:02.

a close, honest and straight talking relationship with the Saudis.

:34:03.:34:07.

Concerns are raised and conversations are had at the most

:34:08.:34:14.

senior level. But to try and smear a close, long-standing regional ally

:34:15.:34:20.

like this is childish. Why is asking for a review of their compliance on

:34:21.:34:25.

humanitarian issues a smear? What was being said by the Labour Party

:34:26.:34:29.

is we are going to unilaterally withdraw defence cooperation with

:34:30.:34:36.

the Saudis if they can prove something. That is a very childish

:34:37.:34:37.

policy. The Green Party have been

:34:38.:34:40.

launching their environment manifesto this morning,

:34:41.:34:42.

that's pretty important for a party It includes a promise to end

:34:43.:34:44.

the dominance of the "big six" energy companies by creating

:34:45.:34:49.

locally-owned competitors, and they'd create a bottle

:34:50.:34:51.

deposit scheme to stop them The word environment has hardly even

:34:52.:34:53.

been mentioned in this It has been conspicuous

:34:54.:34:58.

by its absence. We are here this morning to put

:34:59.:35:02.

that right and to say that the Green Party will continue

:35:03.:35:05.

to put a healthy, thriving environment at the heart

:35:06.:35:08.

of all of our policies at the heart So that's the Green Party's

:35:09.:35:12.

policy announcement today, And we invited them on the show

:35:13.:35:26.

to discuss it, but they declined. But if you were watching yesterday's

:35:27.:35:33.

show you'll have seen we interviewed the party's co-leader Caroline Lucas

:35:34.:35:36.

about her plans for a so-called "progressive alliance" and I asked

:35:37.:35:38.

her about reports her party had been offered ?250,000 by a mystery donor

:35:39.:35:41.

not to stand. I don't know the name of the person,

:35:42.:35:43.

I know of the incident you are talking about,

:35:44.:35:50.

but it happened after the decision had already been taken to stand down

:35:51.:35:56.

and the money was not accepted. Any kind of implication

:35:57.:35:59.

that we were standing down in order for money is absolutely

:36:00.:36:02.

wrong, categorically wrong. It happened after the decision

:36:03.:36:03.

was taken and the money I believe so, I didn't

:36:04.:36:06.

speak to them directly, But as joint leader of the party

:36:07.:36:10.

if somebody offers you ?250,000 I don't remember the name,

:36:11.:36:15.

I've heard the name, but the point was it went

:36:16.:36:18.

through our ethical checks, it did not pass our ethical checks,

:36:19.:36:21.

the money was not accepted. Caroline Lucas yesterday

:36:22.:36:30.

on this programme. So as I said the Green Party didn't

:36:31.:36:33.

want to come on to tell us if they've remembered the name

:36:34.:36:36.

of this mystery donor yet, but were told they didn't

:36:37.:36:39.

want to discuss it any further. They said instead: "No donation

:36:40.:36:41.

was either made or accepted on the basis that we stand down

:36:42.:36:44.

in Richmond Park. All donations offered

:36:45.:36:46.

to the Green Party have to be scrutinised by our ethical criteria

:36:47.:36:48.

and all those accepted can be found on the Electoral

:36:49.:36:51.

Commission website." Now, the Daily Politics moodbox

:36:52.:36:55.

could be coming to a town near you, because it's on tour

:36:56.:36:58.

during the election campaign. Yes, we are in Wales and we are in

:36:59.:37:15.

Holyhead on the island of Anglesey. Over my shoulder is where the

:37:16.:37:18.

lorries line-up to get the ferry to Ireland. This constituency has been

:37:19.:37:24.

held by Plaid Cymru, the Conservatives and most recently by

:37:25.:37:28.

Labour. When we were in Derby the other day and asking people about

:37:29.:37:33.

the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, here we are asking about the

:37:34.:37:36.

Conservative leader and the Prime Minister Theresa May. We were asking

:37:37.:37:41.

that she make people more likely to vote Conservative and does it make a

:37:42.:37:45.

difference? And we have gone bilingual. We have got the box in

:37:46.:37:47.

We have got the box in Welsh as well.

:37:48.:37:53.

Because I think she'll do a lot for the country.

:37:54.:38:19.

Sir, sir, what do you think about Theresa May?

:38:20.:38:21.

She seems to be very unflappable, she's not easily swayed.

:38:22.:38:24.

She doesn't seem a person who will be pushed to making a decision

:38:25.:38:29.

To be honest with you, I've not taken notice of it.

:38:30.:38:37.

You've not taken notice of Theresa May?

:38:38.:38:39.

Do you not care who the Prime Minister is?

:38:40.:38:44.

When I say the name Theresa May, what words pop into your head?

:38:45.:38:49.

Does she make you think of the words 'strong' and 'stable'?

:38:50.:39:07.

Theresa Maybe, she has got no - she changes like a weather

:39:08.:39:17.

The price of food is rocketing at the moment.

:39:18.:39:32.

And do you think Theresa May could get a better deal?

:39:33.:39:37.

Being a single mum of two kids, working is hard work, so yeah.

:39:38.:39:40.

Do you think Theresa May is going to stand up for you?

:39:41.:39:43.

She's the only person who can, isn't she, at the moment?

:39:44.:39:47.

Well, it's totally unscientific of course but this result suggests

:39:48.:39:59.

that Theresa Mania might be limited in this part of Wales

:40:00.:40:02.

and no, I don't know how to say that in Welsh.

:40:03.:40:12.

And we are joined by the former Welsh Secretary Stephen Crabb and

:40:13.:40:18.

Leanne Wood is here with us in the studio. You described the Tories as

:40:19.:40:23.

toxic and irrelevant in Wales. The latest YouGov, ITV, Cardiff

:40:24.:40:30.

University poll, taken up to made seven, has them with four times the

:40:31.:40:38.

support of your party. Last Thursday in the local elections Plaid Cymru

:40:39.:40:43.

one 220 council seats to the Conservative' 184 and in terms of

:40:44.:40:46.

the council elections we have beaten them. We came within just four seeds

:40:47.:40:52.

of getting our best ever council election results last week which

:40:53.:40:57.

puts us in a good position to contest the next election. It is all

:40:58.:41:02.

about defending Wales now as far as we are concerned. That is a fair

:41:03.:41:06.

point, because you came third in Wales in the local elections, so

:41:07.:41:10.

maybe the general election will not be as good for you as the polls

:41:11.:41:14.

suggest. We keep saying we should not read from local election results

:41:15.:41:19.

and read across to make general election predictions. Leanne Wood

:41:20.:41:23.

used all of the same lines she is using today does years ago at the

:41:24.:41:28.

election in 2015 and described the Tories as toxic in Wales and we made

:41:29.:41:31.

big gains at that general election, going from eight to 11 seats. Plaid

:41:32.:41:37.

Cymru were stuck on three. Let's see how the next month plays out and

:41:38.:41:41.

let's see what the results will be in Wales on the 8th of June. You

:41:42.:41:46.

have accused the Tories of planning a power grab against Wales. What is

:41:47.:41:50.

the evidence they will grab power is back? In the Great Repeal Bill,

:41:51.:41:56.

Klaus 4.2, talks about the powers in Brussels currently which have

:41:57.:42:03.

devolved competence, going back straight to Westminster, not

:42:04.:42:08.

Cardiff. Matters that are currently under the competence of the national

:42:09.:42:12.

assembly for Wales, if the Tories have their way, they will be taken

:42:13.:42:17.

back to London. You do not have these powers, these powers are with

:42:18.:42:21.

Brussels and under the repeal Bill they will go to London. The repeal

:42:22.:42:26.

Bill does not take powers from Cardiff to London. We are talking

:42:27.:42:30.

about areas of devolved competence like agriculture. Why would that

:42:31.:42:37.

change? They may pass on the powers, Westminster may just be a shunting

:42:38.:42:42.

ground and they may pass them from Brussels to London to Cardiff. We

:42:43.:42:46.

have recently had a Wales Bill which lists all those matters that are

:42:47.:42:50.

reserved to Westminster and that is rolling back on some of the powers

:42:51.:42:54.

that the National Assembly has. We need to strengthen our national

:42:55.:42:59.

assembly. Are you planning a power grab? This is a nonsense discussion.

:43:00.:43:04.

Theresa May and her teams have made clear that the areas of policy that

:43:05.:43:07.

are now the responsibility of the Welsh government in Cardiff will be

:43:08.:43:13.

respected. We need to think about the frameworks that are currently

:43:14.:43:16.

held at brussels level, like farm support payments and other EU wide

:43:17.:43:21.

competences. How would translate that back into the UK now that we

:43:22.:43:24.

are taking back control by leaving the European Union. But nobody is

:43:25.:43:29.

talking about somehow trying to remove powers or competencies from

:43:30.:43:33.

Wales. Only Plaid Cymru are saying this. That is not true. They are a

:43:34.:43:39.

Welsh nationalist party and they are desperate for things to hang their

:43:40.:43:45.

rhetoric on. On the day after the referendum, the decision to leave

:43:46.:43:49.

the European Union, the leader of Plaid Cymru in Wales said he would

:43:50.:43:53.

not be surprised if the referendum we won in 1997 to establish the

:43:54.:43:57.

National Assembly would have a different vote in the light of the

:43:58.:44:01.

decision to leave the European Union. That gives us an idea of the

:44:02.:44:06.

kind of thinking that is going on. Are you saying the Tories want to

:44:07.:44:11.

close the assembly down? Some would go there if they had an opportunity.

:44:12.:44:15.

They were against setting up the assembly when we had the referendum

:44:16.:44:20.

in 1997. They have come on board because they are benefiting out of

:44:21.:44:25.

it. I would not be surprised, especially if we see more Ukip tide

:44:26.:44:28.

is going to the Conservative Party and they become even further to the

:44:29.:44:34.

right. What do you say to that? We have just passed a law in Parliament

:44:35.:44:40.

which I helped write which enshrines and recognises the permanency of

:44:41.:44:44.

devolved government in Wales and the plays of the Welsh assembly. Listen

:44:45.:44:48.

to who is saying this, I Welsh nationalist party that is desperate

:44:49.:44:52.

to find things to hang their rhetoric on in the general election

:44:53.:44:56.

where everybody in Wales on the doorstep is talking about the big

:44:57.:45:00.

United Kingdom issues. That is why they are looking for leadership in

:45:01.:45:06.

some unlike Theresa May. If not a power grab, what about money grab?

:45:07.:45:13.

The EU funding to Wales is about ?680 million coming from Brussels.

:45:14.:45:19.

We sent some of it out and it gets circulated back, but it goes from

:45:20.:45:24.

the EU to Wales, 680 million is a lot for a small economy. How will

:45:25.:45:26.

that be replaced? This is what we call structural

:45:27.:45:34.

funding. The purpose of the funds was to raise economic growth in

:45:35.:45:37.

Wales to the UK national level. We have had a lot of money from the EU

:45:38.:45:41.

over the last 15 years and a lot of it has been badly spent by Welsh

:45:42.:45:44.

Labour in Cardiff which is why the Welsh economy continues to rumble

:45:45.:45:47.

along at the bottom of the UK league table. We have an opportunity with

:45:48.:45:51.

Brexit to ask ourselves how we use this kind of funding in future. I

:45:52.:45:55.

have to say I absolutely believe that when we come out of the EU, the

:45:56.:45:59.

UK Government will need to look at something that replicates of those

:46:00.:46:04.

kind of structural funds. But we have to do it in a smarter way and

:46:05.:46:08.

be serious about using it to develop a UK wide industrial strategy, raise

:46:09.:46:11.

levels of productivity in Wales. That is the only way we will get

:46:12.:46:14.

better jobs that pay better wages and raise living standards for all

:46:15.:46:18.

people in Wales. What do you say about that? Well, they have no plan,

:46:19.:46:23.

they have no guarantees for the money we could lose. Wales has been

:46:24.:46:27.

ignored, neglected, since the decision to leave the European

:46:28.:46:31.

Union. It is vital that we have a strong team of Plaid Cymru MPs to

:46:32.:46:37.

defend the Welsh national interests and to defend the people in Wales

:46:38.:46:40.

against the Tories. I am concerned that the Tories with an increased

:46:41.:46:43.

mandate will wreck havoc on peoples lives. We are not -- they are not

:46:44.:46:51.

pro public service, they will carry on cutting public service

:46:52.:46:53.

infrastructure and public assets and I think we have to defend people in

:46:54.:46:58.

Wales from the worst of what they can throw at us. But what difference

:46:59.:47:01.

would a couple of Plaid Cymru MPs make to that? The SNP is have 56 out

:47:02.:47:06.

of 59 seats and they did little to rein in the Conservative government.

:47:07.:47:10.

What difference would it make. You only have three, maybe you will end

:47:11.:47:11.

up with two or four. What difference could it make? It is clear to me

:47:12.:47:29.

that Theresa May is speaking for English nationalism. We have a party

:47:30.:47:32.

in Scotland speaking for Scotland and there is no one at the moment

:47:33.:47:34.

speaking for Wales. Only Plaid Cymru will do that. Nobody has any

:47:35.:47:37.

question about our ability to do that. People trust and understand

:47:38.:47:39.

that Plaid Cymru will stand up for Wales. I used to the party of

:47:40.:47:41.

English nationalism? The days that people used to say the Conservative

:47:42.:47:44.

Party were somehow the English party in Wales, that was never true. Those

:47:45.:47:47.

days are long gone. We now have a good team in the Welsh Assembly in

:47:48.:47:50.

Cardiff and a good team of Welsh Conservative members of Parliament

:47:51.:47:52.

at Westminster. Lacazette previously, 11 MPs compared to Plaid

:47:53.:47:58.

Cymru's three. We are in a position where if what we're hearing on the

:47:59.:48:03.

doorsteps is to believe he might be believed, we can look forward to

:48:04.:48:06.

making some games in this general election. -- if what we're hearing

:48:07.:48:12.

on the doorsteps to be believed. We're looking to stand up for Welsh

:48:13.:48:15.

interests as part of the UK Government, taking the Britain we're

:48:16.:48:17.

looking to stand up for Welsh interests as part of the UK

:48:18.:48:19.

Government, taking the Britain country out of the EU -- taking the

:48:20.:48:26.

country out of the EU. We will leave it there. We will know how things go

:48:27.:48:31.

in Wales on the morning after June the 8th.

:48:32.:48:32.

Now, the Liberal Democrats have today announced they would allow

:48:33.:48:38.

Tim Farron, the Lib Dem leader said the estimated ?4.3 billion cost

:48:39.:48:48.

of the initiative would be paid back over time by the taxes and hard work

:48:49.:48:51.

Mr Farron also criticised the government for the "pitiful"

:48:52.:48:55.

number of refugees it currently accepts.

:48:56.:48:56.

Britain can either turn its back on those refugees, Theresa May

:48:57.:49:00.

ending the Dubs Amendment which means we are now

:49:01.:49:02.

turning our back on orphaned children in camps fleeing

:49:03.:49:04.

from Syria, and I just say what kind of Britain do you want to grow up

:49:05.:49:08.

in or do you want your children to grow up in?

:49:09.:49:14.

I want my Britain, the Britain I'm proud of to be outward looking,

:49:15.:49:17.

decent and to create a decent life for others.

:49:18.:49:20.

This is being true to Britain's character.

:49:21.:49:21.

What did Britain do after the Second World War?

:49:22.:49:23.

It opened its doors to those desperate children fleeing

:49:24.:49:26.

We're joined now by the Liberal Democrat, Tom Brake.

:49:27.:49:31.

So 50,000 Syrian refugees resettled from the camps. You have to fund it

:49:32.:49:39.

upfront. ?4.3 billion. Where will the money come from? Well, as Tim

:49:40.:49:43.

Farron set out, and we will be sitting out in our manifesto, which

:49:44.:49:47.

is fully costed, we will explain where that funding is going to come

:49:48.:49:51.

from. Can you do it this morning? You have announced the policy so why

:49:52.:49:54.

not tell us how he will pay for it? I think the details of costings will

:49:55.:49:58.

be in our manifesto for people to see next week. We know what it costs

:49:59.:50:03.

at the moment to support a refugee and we know how many the UK

:50:04.:50:06.

Government have taken so we can extrapolate the costs from that. The

:50:07.:50:11.

arguments you have given us is the costs, but I am asking how you will

:50:12.:50:14.

pay for it. Where will the money come from? As Timm has set out, we

:50:15.:50:17.

will ensure that it is properly funded. But how can we know that if

:50:18.:50:23.

you will not tell us? I am telling you that it is going to be in our

:50:24.:50:27.

costed manifesto. Why announce a policy like this? You have given us

:50:28.:50:31.

the figure, 50,000 Syrian refugees. You have given us the cost, and yet

:50:32.:50:36.

you cannot tell us the crucial bit, how you were going to pay for it?

:50:37.:50:40.

Because what we will do in our costed manifesto is we will be

:50:41.:50:43.

setting out the casting for all the proposals that we have got so it

:50:44.:50:47.

comes as a complete package. And therefore the sources of funding for

:50:48.:50:50.

it may well apply to other things that we are supporting. Another

:50:51.:50:55.

penny on income tax? That would pay for it, that would give you it. We

:50:56.:51:00.

have set out how that would be using terms of funding the NHS. Where

:51:01.:51:05.

would the refugees go? We have already seen local authorities

:51:06.:51:07.

willing to take refugees. There are many willing to provide more

:51:08.:51:13.

support. Clearly we would want to work with those local authorities to

:51:14.:51:16.

provide additional places. If you look at the scale of what we are

:51:17.:51:20.

proposing in terms of 50,000 in comparison with some of the

:51:21.:51:24.

countries in the region like Turkey which have taken 4 million, I think

:51:25.:51:27.

this is a relatively small contribution that the UK would be

:51:28.:51:31.

making. How many has your own borough of Sutton taken in terms of

:51:32.:51:34.

asylum seekers? As I understand it, we have taken over 20 young people

:51:35.:51:39.

as part of this process. The figure I've his format. It is your area. --

:51:40.:51:47.

the figure I've got is format. The figure I have is higher. Sutton is

:51:48.:51:53.

one of the most prosperous part of the country and you have taken four.

:51:54.:52:01.

Let's take the 20 instead, Salford, not the richest part in the country,

:52:02.:52:08.

728. Stockton on Tees, historically an area of high unemployment and

:52:09.:52:15.

industrial decline, 850. I get a prosperous area like yours manages

:52:16.:52:19.

four or 20. -- and yet a prosperous area like yours manages. Sutton is a

:52:20.:52:26.

prosperous area and there has been an attempt to get a pan London

:52:27.:52:32.

initiative set up, and it is through that process that Sutton has

:52:33.:52:34.

received refugees and we will continue to support young people in

:52:35.:52:38.

particular. But so far, you have not. What will change? You are

:52:39.:52:43.

talking about 50000 and all your borough can manages 20 on your

:52:44.:52:48.

figures. 50,000 over the term of a parliament, that is five years, that

:52:49.:52:52.

is 10,000 a year. That would be spread over literally hundreds of

:52:53.:52:57.

authorities. Each authority will only have to take a relatively small

:52:58.:53:02.

number of refugees each year. How come they tend to end up in the

:53:03.:53:07.

poorer parts of the country? Indeed, those parts of the country least

:53:08.:53:13.

equipped to welcome them. That may be down to the government's policy

:53:14.:53:20.

of relocating asylum seekers in the specific places where they tend to

:53:21.:53:26.

focus refugees or asylum seekers in a relatively little limited number

:53:27.:53:35.

of locations. Do you think -- what do you think of 50,000 refugees? It

:53:36.:53:38.

is a humanitarian disaster and we are not sticking our fair share of

:53:39.:53:41.

the responsibility at present so more needs to be done. The 20,000

:53:42.:53:45.

figure that they committed to has not been met, has it? So I do not

:53:46.:53:50.

think it is fair that those countries surrounding Syria, which

:53:51.:53:57.

in many cases are poor countries, take the biggest share of the

:53:58.:53:58.

burden. We will leave it there. Now, in the run up to

:53:59.:54:04.

the General Election we've been taking a look at some of the smaller

:54:05.:54:07.

parties hoping to win seats. Today it's the turn

:54:08.:54:10.

of the Pirate Party UK. They're fielding ten candidates,

:54:11.:54:12.

and I know Leanne was bitterly disappointed to learn they've got

:54:13.:54:14.

nothing to do with eye-patches, The Pirate Party UK was founded

:54:15.:54:17.

in 2009, and says it has the UK's Some of their policies include:

:54:18.:54:24.

lowering copyright duration Protecting the right to protest,

:54:25.:54:38.

including withholding labour. On privacy they oppose the so-called

:54:39.:54:41.

"Snooper's Charter" and would see And they have policies

:54:42.:54:43.

on free speech including protecting all whistleblowers

:54:44.:54:47.

and reforming libel laws. We're joined in the studio

:54:48.:54:51.

now by Mark Chapman, Welcome to the programme. If you are

:54:52.:55:01.

a journalist, reforming the whistle-blowing was and libel was

:55:02.:55:07.

definitely has its attractions. But would you not be better trying to

:55:08.:55:12.

push these through mainstream parties to get them to adopt them,

:55:13.:55:15.

rather than building a party around something like that yourself? Well,

:55:16.:55:20.

that is an allegation you could make against old minor parties. We

:55:21.:55:28.

believe that we have a unique perspective on free speech,

:55:29.:55:30.

whistle-blowing and justice, but on wider things as well. We are party

:55:31.:55:34.

of freedom in all areas. We believe that people need to be free online

:55:35.:55:41.

as well as offline. We believe that people need to be able to

:55:42.:55:44.

communicate with one another without the government stepping on them,

:55:45.:55:47.

without them being able to read your e-mails. And do you think that is

:55:48.:55:51.

getting worse? Absolutely. We have seen with Theresa May as Home

:55:52.:55:55.

Secretary and Amber Rudd now, that looking to put in a back door to

:55:56.:55:58.

encryption, for example, is something that is akin to putting a

:55:59.:56:08.

key under your front door step. And I can understand the attraction of

:56:09.:56:10.

that. There have been cases were some of this has been misused.

:56:11.:56:15.

Journalists have been on the wrong end of it, not the hacking stuff,

:56:16.:56:18.

that is different, but trying to track down sources and so on, using

:56:19.:56:22.

what you are talking about. It is a harder argument, isn't it, when the

:56:23.:56:32.

war on terror, so-called, has become overwhelmingly a war of the

:56:33.:56:38.

intelligence services against those opposed to them. Absolutely. There

:56:39.:56:42.

is a real need in politics in Westminster for people who

:56:43.:56:45.

understand digital, who understand technology, who know exactly how

:56:46.:56:50.

this stuff works because we are really lacking in any politicians

:56:51.:56:56.

that have that background, that have that knowledge. You think the

:56:57.:57:00.

political classes do not quite understand the invocations of

:57:01.:57:03.

digital technology? They do not at all. And with regards to your

:57:04.:57:06.

comment about mass surveillance and the war on terror we think that

:57:07.:57:12.

money would be far better spent on targeted surveillance. It is no use

:57:13.:57:17.

adding more hay to the haystack if you are looking for a needle. Does

:57:18.:57:22.

that have an attraction to you? Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me. I

:57:23.:57:26.

wanted to point out, you said you were the first party to crowd source

:57:27.:57:29.

your manifesto, I want to put on the record that Plaid Cymru crowd

:57:30.:57:33.

sourced our manifesto for the assembly elections last year. We had

:57:34.:57:36.

an online engagement. So that you could leak the manifesto online now?

:57:37.:57:43.

I would like to hope that we are... Our first manifesto was back in

:57:44.:57:47.

2010, so to be fair... Are you finding any traction among

:57:48.:57:54.

voters? We are. It is a tough one out there. It initially seems daft

:57:55.:57:57.

but when you speak to people and get them to realise that digital rights,

:57:58.:58:03.

the importance of technology affects every area of our lives, it affects

:58:04.:58:07.

children in our schools. What are our children learning about how to

:58:08.:58:11.

use technology? My 18-month-old already knows to swipe when he picks

:58:12.:58:16.

up a phone by default. We need our children to understand technology,

:58:17.:58:19.

that they can use it for good, so that we can really understand how to

:58:20.:58:23.

make society work in the future instead of being afraid of the past.

:58:24.:58:26.

And how many seats are you standing in? Ten. We thank you for coming on

:58:27.:58:33.

to explain. There was a famous Pirate Party in Sweden and they did

:58:34.:58:36.

quite well. We are hoping to build on their success. That's it for

:58:37.:58:44.

today. Thank you for all our guests. The Wonnacott uses beginning now on

:58:45.:58:48.

BBC One and I will be joined by Michael Portillo, Liz Kendall, Kevin

:58:49.:58:52.

Maguire, David Baddiel and Douglas Murray. That is straight after

:58:53.:58:57.

Question Time, BBC One, 11:45pm. Bye-bye. -- the one o'clock news is

:58:58.:58:59.

beginning now. The race is on to complete

:59:00.:59:12.

London's most ambitious railway.

:59:13.:59:16.

Andrew Neil is joined by Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood. They look at the leaked Labour manifesto and the Conservatives' announcements on defence spending. Plus a round-up of all the latest campaign news.