15/05/2017 Daily Politics


15/05/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng and Labour peer Baroness Kennedy for the latest coverage of the general election campaign.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May is promising a "new deal for workers" and "the greatest

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extension of rights for employees by any Conservative

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"Tory cuts have exposed the NHS to cyber attack" -

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so says Jeremy Corbyn, as he pledges an extra 37 billion

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In a previous life, Jeremy Corbyn's views often differed from mainstream

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I am, of course, in Newcastle, finding out just how excited

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people are about manifesto launches this week.

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If you don't read the manifesto, you don't know

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And it's quite important to know what's happening to your country.

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

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of the programme today - Kwasi Kwarteng, who's

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running for re-election for the Conservatives,

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First today, Theresa May has said that she will bring forward

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what she calls "the greatest expansion in workers'

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rights by any Conservative government in history",

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It's being seen as an attempt to appeal to Labour voters

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Theresa May says that, after Brexit, she will keep all the workers'

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rights that are currently guaranteed by EU law.

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The National Living Wage will go up in line with average earnings over

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The views of workers will be represented on company boards,

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although this could just done by a workers' representative,

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And the Conservatives are also promising new statutory leave rights

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for people who have suffered a child bereavement,

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need to care for a family member, or want to undertake training.

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And the Conservatives will also amend existing legislation to extend

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protections for workers with mental health conditions.

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The Labour Party unveiled their own workers' rights

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Their plans included a ?10 an hour minimum wage by 2020,

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ending the public sector pay cap, banning zero hours contracts

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Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrats announced last week that they'll

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introduce a so-called "father's month" -

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that's an additional month of paid parental leave for fathers.

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This was Theresa May talking about those plans this morning.

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What we're doing today is announcing the biggest ever

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enhancement of workers' rights by a Conservative government.

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And, yes, there are various elements to this.

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But we're, for example, committing that the national

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Living Wage will continue to rise in line with median earnings.

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Yes, that people will be able to request time off

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to care for a relative and we want to support

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I've been today at a fantastic organisation, TechPixies,

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helping women who have been taking time out of work looking

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after children to get the skills to get back into the workplace,

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This is what we want to see more of in the future.

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Joining me now is Frances O'Grady, General Secretary of

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What's your response, do you embrace these proposals? This is promising

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and I'm pleased all major parties are competing on our turf. Fighting

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for workers' votes on issues that matter to working people. I think in

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respect to Theresa May's proposals, we need much more detail. How many

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of these rights like family leave will be writes for paid leave,

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otherwise they'll just writes for the well off. I heard comments on

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the national minimum wage. There is a pre-existing promise that this

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should be at least 60% of median earnings by 2020. I would like that

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clarified. And on the deep economy, zero hours and self-employment --

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the gig economies. I don't want to wait for Matthew Taylor's review. I

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think we should hear now on what the Conservatives want to do on what is

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a modern-day scandal. What do you think about the claim that this is

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an historic offer being made to workers by the Conservative

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government? I've spent my life campaigning for a better deal for

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workers. I'm very pleased that all main parties are competing on this

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ground. It's important, and I think there is a recognition that working

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people have had a tough deal. The corporate governance system is

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rigged against not just working people but the long-term success of

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companies. We need a stronger voice for working people and I would like

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to hear a positive story about the role of unions as well. Because

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that's the best way of ensuring people can enforce rights. Otherwise

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they have to fork out more than ?1000 in an employment tribunal to

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make real. All these rights might be well and good but in the end if

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wages will be squeezed further by the rise in inflation and rising

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prices, will workers be that bothered about some of the rights

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they may or may not get depending on who is in government? The rights are

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important to guarantee we have a level playing field. It's only if

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workers come together collectively that we can enforce those rights and

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improve people's living standards. This was the big gap in the story

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today. What are we going to do, not just about the very low paid, but

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ordinary workers who are, as the Prime Minister said, struggling to

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get by? And we have still got those pay limits on public service workers

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meaning in real terms they will be worse off against point labour says

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it will remove that pay cap on public service workers. What sort of

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rises would you like to see for those workers? The TUC have said

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clearly that where there are independent pay review bodies, they

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should be genuinely independent and their recommendations should be

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heeded. Otherwise we need real collective bargaining. That's the

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only way we can ensure that we get a fair distribution of the wealth that

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is created, whether that's in the private or public sector. What sort

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of level, though? Because that will in turn have an impact on the

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economy if there are higher wage rises for certain sectors, whether

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it's private or public. The great benefit of collective bargaining and

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independent pay review bodies is that they look at affordability and

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fairness and you come to an agreement. Thank you very much,

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Frances O'Grady. We did ask the Conservatives

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for a front bench spokesman to comment on this major policy

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announcement, but they said But we do have Conservative MP

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Kwasi Kwarteng and we're also joined by Ian Lavery,

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Labour's Elections Coordinator. You have announced this 11 point

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plan on workers' rights. Is it fully costed? I just want to say, I'm not

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an MP, I'm a candidate. Thank you. The broad point is that we have a

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strong and stable government and we want something that has a broader

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reach. It's an attractive policy that I think will get lots of people

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who haven't necessarily voted Conservative in the past. Is it

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properly costed? Of course. It will be costed in terms of having a plan

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to balance the budget. That's not the same as a fully costed plan. You

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always say to Labour when they announced their policies, how will

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they pay for it? Is it through higher income tax, or a reversal

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incorporation tax, or whatever it is? Using the broad economy is not

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saying it's fully costed. There is a difference because when Labour have

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specific spending commitments, saying so much for 10,000 extra

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policeman, they don't actually know the numbers. So how will you find

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this new plan for statutory rights? The point about the regulation is we

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are not saying we are going to know how many people will use and

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exercise those rights. To put it a different way, have you done a full

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impact assessment? If I take your point we're not talking about... We

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are not talking about specific numbers because we don't know how

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may people will use those rights. So in a sense, it's not fully costed.

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We have a broad assessment. I'm sure that will be revealed in the

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manifesto. I'm saying it's not right to suggest it's the same as when

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Labour make specific spending commitments because we don't know

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how many people will use those rights. In a way it's exactly the

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same. If you put the same onus on the opposition or the Labour Party

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to cost its proposals, people expect the Conservatives to do the same.

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You say we will keep all the workers' rights we get from the EU

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after Brexit but there is nothing to stop a future Conservative

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government watering down those rights in years to come. This is

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entirely hypothetical. We don't even know who will win the election. No

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votes have been cast. To talk about a hypothetical Conservative

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government at some point in the future is getting ahead of

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ourselves. Is it? Because if you say we will keep all the workers' rights

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we get from the EU after Brexit, that's quite a bold claim and it

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would be meaningless if in five years' time those rights disappear.

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What the government has said is that we are committed to keeping the

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rights... For the time being. We do not know what will happen in 2022.

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No party can say what their platform will be then. We have a broad

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commitment by this Prime Minister to protect workers' rights, and not

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only protect them, but extend them in a way no other Conservative

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government has done in my recollection ever. It's an

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extraordinary and exciting development. I think it will work

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very well. Do you accept that we can't state and no party can clearly

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state at this point what they might do? In 2022? No party can do that.

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Returnship, you wrote a book recently with colleagues in the

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Conservative Party... Five years ago. That's not that long ago. You

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said British workers were I'd list. The pamphlet said laziest. You said

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all this business about social services being cut to the bone will

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stop you said things about Labour's, the rights of employees had to be

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reduced. That's your view. This is a long journey. I hope people who are

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listening and weighing this up know this is a long journey. The purpose

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of this is due in the end reduce workers' rights. You can't say that.

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Let's go back to the first point Helena Kennedy mix. You were part of

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a group of free enterprise MPs. There was a book, a pamphlet

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written... It was a book. You said British workers were idlers. It was

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a quotation in the book. It was from someone else. It was a book

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published in 2012. Let him answer and I will come to you. Anybody can

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see the world is in a completely different place to where we were

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five years ago. We have Brexit. We are committed to securing workers'

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rights. You said yourself that as a consequence of Brexit workers'

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rights would be in jeopardy. We said no. The Prime Minister has come out

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with an exciting package and all you can do is criticise. I would think

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you would welcome these improvements. Ian Lavery. Priti

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Patel, International Development Secretary, said in the referendum

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campaign last year that there could be a boost to the economy and

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600,000 new jobs. She was also contributed to that book. Where is

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the bonfire of regulation? As far as I can see you are adding to the

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regulations with this 11 point plan? The Prime Minister's position was

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always clear. When she was elected she said she wanted a country and

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economy that worked for everyone. This announcement embeds that and

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wants to extend and seek to extend rights. I find it extraordinary that

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opposition parties are arguing against it. We are not arguing

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against it. I thought you would welcome this development. These

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ideas have been around and discussed by Labour politicians and Liberal

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Democrat politicians. This is not some new invention, I can assure

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you. But for a Conservative may be. That's the point of the quote from

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the Prime Minister. They are all over Labour's territory. That's the

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purpose. It's windowdressing to challenge the fact that Labour will

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in the end do things about creating employment and employees rights.

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Nobody is arguing against it. It is terrific. In the long term, there is

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no money costed for it.... It is terrific, though. Absolutely, but

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it's stolen from others. I have been very patient! You have, now I will

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turn my attention to you. It has been broadly welcomed by the TUC.

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Helena Kennedy said it was terrific. What say you? I've got to say, it's

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amazing hearing Kwasi Kwarteng suggest that the Conservative Party

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are now the party of the working people. He wrote a book that said

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British workers were idlers and lazy and would prefer to lie in bed than

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go out and do a day off work. Do you think the working people of this

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country will forget that? Do you think the working people are fooled

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by your rhetoric? It's an outrage to make such remarks about the people

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in this country. You're not going to get away with that. We have already

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had a go at Kwasi Kwarteng for what he and others said in the book. What

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about the proposals today? I think the proposals today, the bombshell

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for me and the Labour Party is the fact that it has gone largely

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unreported that the people in this country, working people, are set to

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lose ?2300 between now and 2020 as a result of bereaved calculation of

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the national living wage. -- of the recalculation.

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Are these proposals good or not? The most important one on explaining its

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full working people, how they pay for food and how they feed their

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children. What we have in this document is a bombshell on working

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people which will mean that ?2300 per annum worse off in 2020. Frances

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O'Grady clearly said, also picking up on the question I put her on the

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squeeze on wages, but she said used all need workers' rights and you

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still need the sorts of rights outlined by the Conservatives with

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the backing of Kwasi Kwarteng. I am saying to you, do you support them?

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We have a 20 point plan released two weeks ago with regard to workers'

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rights. If you scrutinise that 20 point plan it's far and away much

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better in terms of securing people in the workplace. You do have your

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own plan for workers' rights. The plan is far better than what has

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been suggested this morning. All right, let's take it bit by bit and

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see if it is an improvement. Would the Labour government create new

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statutory leave indictments for carers, people who want training and

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have suffered a child bereavement? Yes. You would match those. What

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about people working in the gig economy, working for taxi firms like

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Uber. The Conservatives say they will intimate revue carried out by

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the former Tony Blair adviser. We have 460,000 people working in bogus

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soft employment in the low-wage economy. We have 1 million people

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and more. What would you do for them? We are going to get rid of

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zero-hours contracts. We have 1 million people on zero-hours

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contracts. We have 1.5 million people stuck on the minimum wage.

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How many of those people on zero-hours contracts want to be on

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zero-hours contracts? Let me just say this because it's important.

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People who are in this country who are working 40 hours a week claiming

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benefits, we have people in this country working 40 hours per week

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using food banks including nurses on the NHS. I am asking for the

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solutions and proposals to deal with it. How can the Tory government come

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forward and suggest in any way they are the party for the working

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people? You have not answered my question. How many of the people on

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zero-hours contracts, how many of them want to be on those contracts

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and what the flexibility rightly or wrongly? The vast majority don't

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want to be. How can anybody want to be on the zero-hours contract?

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People do, they want to have that flexibility and I think your

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approach where you just say this is what is going to happen, it is de

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Reid Fiest, a top-down approach, some people want to have a

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flexible... Very few people. A few people and more than you think.

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Let's talk about the public sector pay cut I put this to Frances

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O'Grady and she said you would need an independent pay body. How much

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should it go up and how much would it cost? When you look at it public

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sector employees have not had a pay rise since 2000... I'm not asking

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that. I'm just saying, they have not had a pay rise, they don't know what

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a pay rise is only more so it's important we pay these most

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important people in society a fair and decent wage. It's not up to me

:19:06.:19:08.

to predict what they should be paid but they certainly need a pay rise.

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Families in this country... Are you talking about a significant pay

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rise? They are earning less now than they were in 2010. That cannot be

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the case and we have got a bridge that gap. There are families in this

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country now earning less than what they were in 2007, never mind 2010.

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?1400 a year worse off, that cannot be the case. I will put that to

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Kwasi Kwarteng, Ian Lavery, we need to let you go, but thank you for

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being on the programme. Let's go back to the squeeze on wages because

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that's the story now, because with inflation at 2.3%, wages are being

:19:50.:19:54.

squeezed. It is hard and what he said about public sector pay is

:19:55.:19:58.

true, a difficult period, there is no point denying that. We also have

:19:59.:20:05.

to remember that the deficit in 2010 was ?160 billion, we were borrowing

:20:06.:20:09.

?3 billion a week as a government, as a country, and that was clearly

:20:10.:20:12.

unsustainable and we have to make tough decisions and that was what

:20:13.:20:16.

the 2015 general election was fought on, we make difficult decisions,

:20:17.:20:23.

restrained spending and we had to do do that because otherwise we were

:20:24.:20:26.

heading for a sovereign debt crisis. Now you think it should be lifted?

:20:27.:20:29.

I'm not in a position to say, as Ian didn't answer the question, what the

:20:30.:20:32.

level should be, but there is no doubt it has been a difficult time.

:20:33.:20:38.

We are getting through. There is no point laughing or pretending that we

:20:39.:20:40.

didn't have a terrible deficit which had to be dealt with. The thing was

:20:41.:20:44.

that the opportunity was taken to make ordinary people pay the price.

:20:45.:20:50.

The price was not paid by the super wealthy. The top 1%. You don't look

:20:51.:20:59.

after ordinary people. The top 1% pay more tax. Ordinary people, all

:21:00.:21:07.

of us, we have paid the price. The top 1% pay more tax... We have to

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move on otherwise we will not get through the rest of the programme.

:21:11.:21:13.

Talking over each other does not help the viewer either.

:21:14.:21:14.

The question for today is, what did Russian President Vladimir

:21:15.:21:18.

Putin do before meeting Chinese President Xi

:21:19.:21:20.

A - Ride through Beijing on a Harley Davidson.

:21:21.:21:25.

B - Explore sunken shipwrecks in the South China Sea.

:21:26.:21:28.

C - Practise judo with a Chinese national champion.

:21:29.:21:30.

Or D - Play Soviet-era songs on a grand piano?

:21:31.:21:36.

The mind boggles, he probably could have done all of them!

:21:37.:21:39.

At the end of the show Helena and Kwasi will give

:21:40.:21:41.

Labour's big announcement on health today comes after a weekend

:21:42.:21:47.

dominated by news of the cyber attack which hit

:21:48.:21:49.

Speaking to the Royal College of Nurses in Liverpool,

:21:50.:21:52.

Jeremy Corbyn pleged to spend an extra ?37 billion

:21:53.:21:54.

on the NHS in England over the next five years if it wins power.

:21:55.:21:58.

The investment would be funded by tax increases

:21:59.:22:00.

Labour says the money would be used to upgrade IT systems

:22:01.:22:03.

Take one million people off waiting lists by guaranteeing

:22:04.:22:12.

Set a new one-hour A target for the most urgent cases

:22:13.:22:16.

and guarantee no more than a four-hour wait

:22:17.:22:18.

Set a new target to tackle bed blocking by patients waiting

:22:19.:22:28.

for care arrangements before they can be released from hospital.

:22:29.:22:31.

And cancer patients to be seen within four weeks.

:22:32.:22:33.

Here's what the Labour leader had to say in Liverpool earlier today.

:22:34.:22:36.

Nothing embodies our campaign theme, for the many not the few, better

:22:37.:22:39.

Universal lifelong health care free at the point of need.

:22:40.:22:48.

However, our health service is actually being

:22:49.:22:50.

Over the past seven years our National Health

:22:51.:22:58.

Service has been driven into crisis after crisis.

:22:59.:23:01.

A departments struggling to cope, waiting lists

:23:02.:23:05.

soaring, and we saw last week Tory cuts exposed patient services to

:23:06.:23:11.

I'm joined now by two humble scribes who don't mind standing

:23:12.:23:21.

Kate McCann from The Daily Telegraph, and the political

:23:22.:23:27.

Matthew d'Ancona, a poll has found the NHS has overtaken Brexit as

:23:28.:23:38.

voters' most important concern. Does Jeremy Corbyn's big NHS announcement

:23:39.:23:42.

today matched by quite big money, is it timely? It is certainly the right

:23:43.:23:48.

terrain for Jeremy Corbyn because Labour always felt comfortable

:23:49.:23:51.

talking about health. Naturally in the wake of a cyber warfare attack

:23:52.:23:56.

it is absolutely a natural subject for him. I think the problem will

:23:57.:24:02.

come because of the money that is necessary to pay for all of this.

:24:03.:24:06.

That takes Labour straight back onto the economic issue, which is one of

:24:07.:24:11.

its weakest. Isn't that going to be a tag line from the Conservatives,

:24:12.:24:16.

Kate McCann, all about unaffordable spending pledges? They have said

:24:17.:24:20.

they will tax people earning ?80,000 a little bit more. Surely it would

:24:21.:24:24.

have to be a lot more to me that build. It would have to be a lot

:24:25.:24:28.

more, billions of pounds more and Jon Ashworth, Labour's Shadow Health

:24:29.:24:32.

Secretary, this morning was saying the 45p rate would hit those earning

:24:33.:24:37.

more than ?85,000 and there is an assumption they would introduce a

:24:38.:24:42.

50p rate of tax for those on ?150,000 or more. The problem is Jon

:24:43.:24:45.

Ashworth said that would raise about ?4.5 billion and they need ?6

:24:46.:24:49.

billion. The list of proposals that he read out from Jeremy Corbyn is

:24:50.:24:53.

likely to cost far more than that. So there is still quite some money

:24:54.:24:58.

to find if that is what Labour will promise the country. Let's talk

:24:59.:25:01.

about the cyber-security issue, which exploded at the weekend. As

:25:02.:25:05.

the government response been big enough, do you think, Matthew

:25:06.:25:10.

d'Ancona? I think they are claiming they have 95% of health outlets back

:25:11.:25:15.

online. I think this is an issue where they will have to be lots of

:25:16.:25:19.

reassurance. This is not only a health issue, it is a security

:25:20.:25:23.

issue, which is why Amber Rudd, the Home Secretary, rather than Jeremy

:25:24.:25:26.

Hunt the Health Secretary, has been leading the fight back as it were. I

:25:27.:25:30.

think it's an incredibly important issue and goes far beyond the limits

:25:31.:25:34.

of this campaign. It's got to do with the vulnerability of the

:25:35.:25:37.

biggest health network in the world to a cyber-attack. This was a weapon

:25:38.:25:43.

that had been used by hackers. It wasn't a foreign attack. It was

:25:44.:25:48.

clearly just a group of amateurs using ransomware. You cannot have

:25:49.:25:51.

the NHS is subject to this kind of attack and not be concerned about

:25:52.:25:57.

it. Kate McCann, in your mind is Jeremy Corbyn using this as a stick

:25:58.:26:02.

to beat the Government with in this campaign? Will that actually bring

:26:03.:26:07.

results, do you think, to the Labour campaign? It is funny you say that

:26:08.:26:09.

because I have a couple of friends in the RCM conference in Liverpool

:26:10.:26:14.

this morning and they said they didn't think politicising the issue

:26:15.:26:17.

was a good idea. It works well for Labour because it shows the NHS is

:26:18.:26:20.

vulnerable to these attacks and gives them another way to save the

:26:21.:26:23.

Tories are not spending enough money on the health service but it's

:26:24.:26:26.

probably not that wise because we are likely to see more and more

:26:27.:26:30.

cyber attacks like this and if Labour are in power they will have

:26:31.:26:33.

to inject a huge amount of money to protect the NHS and we know from

:26:34.:26:38.

previous computer programmes and big IT projects, particularly in the

:26:39.:26:40.

NHS, they tend to go massively overbudget. Right, they made those

:26:41.:26:46.

promises today, the Labour Party, which adhere, if not in this

:26:47.:26:49.

programme, late on the BBC from Jeremy Hunt with an interview he did

:26:50.:26:59.

on this issue. This remains controversial but the health

:27:00.:27:03.

Department say they have been updating their protective measures

:27:04.:27:10.

quite aggressively and that very few of the trusts were not warned. The

:27:11.:27:16.

problem is the more decentralisation you have the harder it is to

:27:17.:27:19.

regulate. You are always trying to strike a balance between the

:27:20.:27:22.

benefits of decentralisation in the health service and proper

:27:23.:27:25.

regulation. I think there will be big lessons to be learned from this.

:27:26.:27:30.

In terms of the debates, Kate, we know there will be leaders' debate

:27:31.:27:33.

on Thursday on ITV but they will be no Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn and

:27:34.:27:38.

ITV said they will not empty chair the missing leaders. Is that right

:27:39.:27:41.

strategy? It works well for Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn because if

:27:42.:27:44.

viewers tune in they may not be aware that the Prime Minister and

:27:45.:27:48.

leader of the Labour Party were meant to attend in the first place

:27:49.:27:51.

so it looks better for them if there isn't an empty podium with their

:27:52.:27:54.

names on it. I wonder how many people will tune in on a Thursday

:27:55.:27:58.

night if the two big hitters aren't taking part. It's probably quite

:27:59.:28:02.

disappointing that the two people who realistically, and the one

:28:03.:28:04.

person realistically, who could be running the country will not be

:28:05.:28:08.

there. We will have to see when we look at the ratings the week.

:28:09.:28:17.

Casting ahead to the end of the week, looking at manifestos, Matthew

:28:18.:28:19.

d'Ancona. In this post-truce Iraq which I know you have written

:28:20.:28:21.

something about, what do you think counts when it comes to grabbing

:28:22.:28:24.

voters' attention? I don't think voters look for a shopping list of

:28:25.:28:28.

specific policies or granular detail. But what they do look for is

:28:29.:28:31.

the trajectory that the country is going to pursue under the specific

:28:32.:28:37.

party in question. So the question really will be, to take the

:28:38.:28:41.

Conservative manifesto, is there more to this really interesting new

:28:42.:28:47.

direction the Conservatives under Theresa May are taking, which is to

:28:48.:28:50.

try and capture the working class vote? What we have heard today is a

:28:51.:28:54.

taster and people will look for more in the pages of what we are told

:28:55.:28:57.

will be the proverbial slim document. Thank you to both of you,

:28:58.:29:04.

enjoy the campaign. Let's pick up on the cyber-security. Should the

:29:05.:29:06.

government have taken more notice of those warnings a year ago in terms

:29:07.:29:10.

of protecting NHS trusts, particularly when it came to their

:29:11.:29:14.

IT programmes? I think we can always be wise after the event. We can

:29:15.:29:18.

always look at a problem and say we could have done more, we could have

:29:19.:29:23.

done this or that. They were warned. What I would say is the government

:29:24.:29:27.

has committed something like 1.9 billion to the national cyber

:29:28.:29:30.

Security Centre, something that is new and has not happened before. I

:29:31.:29:35.

think the government did have a sense that cyber-security was going

:29:36.:29:38.

to be a big issue, that people were going to be concerned about it and I

:29:39.:29:42.

think this investment was an excellent development. Could we have

:29:43.:29:46.

done more to prevent this? May be. What I would also say this was an

:29:47.:29:51.

international attack. 150 countries were subject to this attack. It was

:29:52.:29:58.

a global crisis, if you like. I think we are well placed as a

:29:59.:30:01.

country generally to deal with this sort of attack because of the

:30:02.:30:05.

National Cyber Security Centre. Are you one of those who is wise after

:30:06.:30:09.

the event? I was speaking to my friends who sits on a hospital trust

:30:10.:30:13.

and she was saying the reality is there is so little money left at the

:30:14.:30:17.

end of the day that in fact when you are talking about the spend, the

:30:18.:30:23.

capital spend, which has to be on new equipment. Buildings. On

:30:24.:30:26.

buildings, and then on your computer system, she said you are down to the

:30:27.:30:32.

small amounts. Talking about more money to add to the ?37 billion you

:30:33.:30:36.

want to spend over the next few years? I think you really need to

:30:37.:30:40.

have people with real skills in this and we really have to have a proper

:30:41.:30:43.

look at it and it is going to cost money inevitably. It will cost

:30:44.:30:48.

money. Who is going to pay for that, people who are in over ?80,000?

:30:49.:30:51.

There has to be a complete rethink about this economy and it won't

:30:52.:30:55.

happen in the hands of the Conservative Party. This business

:30:56.:30:59.

about low taxation and not looking after your nation's people and the

:31:00.:31:04.

things that make things good for them must be revisited. The Labour

:31:05.:31:09.

Party at the moment, there was a dismissal of the league of the

:31:10.:31:13.

manifesto. I think you are going to find the real challenge to the

:31:14.:31:16.

neoliberal economics that has been the product of Kwasi and you will

:31:17.:31:23.

see more money. Will it be credible? John McDonnell, the Shadow

:31:24.:31:26.

Chancellor, made it clear the increases on those earning ?80,000 a

:31:27.:31:29.

year, which is what he wants to do, would be modest? One of the more

:31:30.:31:34.

radical if you want to pay for these things? You need to tax people more.

:31:35.:31:39.

Labour need to win the trust of people so they think they can manage

:31:40.:31:43.

the economy so they must be cautious but what I'm saying is we have to

:31:44.:31:47.

challenge the business of a low tax economy. There is not that much

:31:48.:31:52.

difference between the two. A transactional tax is something Kwasi

:31:53.:31:54.

would oppose because he was a banker. Robin Hood tax. Let me... It

:31:55.:32:03.

was deemed as causing flight of capital. This is different, isn't

:32:04.:32:05.

it, Kwasi Kwarteng? There are two things that struck me.

:32:06.:32:14.

One is that it's about looking after people and there are two issues were

:32:15.:32:19.

polling well on, very strong on the economy and also on security. This

:32:20.:32:24.

idea Jeremy Corbyn is the man to keep us safe when we know about his

:32:25.:32:27.

links with the IRA and his support for Hamas... On really! And his

:32:28.:32:42.

championing of Venezuela under Hugo Chavez. That was a Conservative

:32:43.:32:46.

attack line. Party mangers are presenting

:32:47.:32:48.

Jeremy Corbyn as an alternative choice in this General Election

:32:49.:32:50.

campaign and in a previous life his views were outside Labour's

:32:51.:32:55.

mainstream thinking. But does this matter

:32:56.:32:57.

now that he's leader? Over the last few days we've

:32:58.:32:58.

put some of Jeremy's previously-expressed views to senior

:32:59.:33:01.

Labour figures. The radical end, the left

:33:02.:33:03.

of the unions and the Labour Party, have got to be realistic that Nato

:33:04.:33:08.

is a major problem and a major difficulty,

:33:09.:33:11.

and we have to campaign against Nato's power,

:33:12.:33:14.

its influence and its global reach, because it is a danger to world

:33:15.:33:17.

peace and a danger I think that's a quote from six

:33:18.:33:20.

years ago, and Jeremy has been on a journey,

:33:21.:33:26.

to coin a phrase. Come the end of the Cold War

:33:27.:33:32.

in 1990, that should have been the time for Nato to shut up shop,

:33:33.:33:37.

give up, go home and go away. What is very clear is that

:33:38.:33:41.

when you are the leader of a political party,

:33:42.:33:44.

you have to go with You have to go along

:33:45.:33:46.

with the collective view. And the collective view

:33:47.:33:50.

is that we support Nato, and we support remaining

:33:51.:33:52.

a member of Nato. And that is what

:33:53.:33:54.

Jeremy is promoting. Fabian Hamilton. So how many more

:33:55.:34:05.

videos of Jeremy Corbyn contradicting party policy can

:34:06.:34:08.

Labour politicians expect to be played to them in this campaign? I

:34:09.:34:12.

think Lynton Crosby has been saving them up. He's running the campaign.

:34:13.:34:17.

I think we will have them drip fed to the public over the next few

:34:18.:34:22.

weeks. All I will say is... It's a bit like, I'm a lawyer and a

:34:23.:34:28.

barrister, and it's a bit like when lawyers have been on one side of a

:34:29.:34:31.

case, and then you become a judge and you have to behave slightly

:34:32.:34:34.

differently. Is that like being the leader of a party where you have to

:34:35.:34:42.

stand on a manifesto where you don't necessarily believe. Has he changed

:34:43.:34:46.

his mind on things like Nato? Theresa May was in favour of

:34:47.:34:50.

remaining. Lots of remain politicians now have to say they are

:34:51.:34:54.

in favour of leaving Europe. People have to listen to others and grow

:34:55.:34:59.

and change. Has he changed his mind on Nato? I hope that he has. It

:35:00.:35:04.

makes absolute sense, particularly looking at Russia today, to be

:35:05.:35:08.

involved with Nato. I hope he has made the shift, but even if he

:35:09.:35:17.

hasn't, everybody else around them has formed a particular view, and

:35:18.:35:20.

he's going with that, just like Theresa May is going with leaving

:35:21.:35:23.

the European Union. Those shifts happen in politics. There are plenty

:35:24.:35:27.

of remain politicians on the Conservative side. I find it

:35:28.:35:32.

extraordinary that earlier in the programme Helena Kennedy quoted a

:35:33.:35:35.

book I wrote with four are the people in 2012 and said I should be

:35:36.:35:40.

held accountable for that. Now we see the clips of Jeremy Corbyn and

:35:41.:35:45.

she now says he has changed, things have changed. Have you changed your

:35:46.:35:51.

view of the British workers? The point has been made that people on

:35:52.:35:56.

both sides can change their mind. Fundamentally, whether he has

:35:57.:36:00.

changed or not is beside the point. From his manifesto we are seeing a

:36:01.:36:05.

return to 1970s, Marxist, hard left agendas that have no evidence people

:36:06.:36:11.

will support them, which will financially bankrupt the country. Is

:36:12.:36:16.

it credible to voters that the collective view of the Labour Party

:36:17.:36:19.

on issues like the renewal of Trident and issues like Nato and

:36:20.:36:25.

other issues where Jeremy Corbyn personally might not agree with him,

:36:26.:36:30.

that they override the leader of the Labour Party, who wants to be the

:36:31.:36:34.

next Prime Minister. The reality is that we are a Democratic party and

:36:35.:36:41.

policies are made around decisions that are... Are they credible to

:36:42.:36:46.

voters? People are going on the doorsteps and saying we need Labour

:36:47.:36:50.

politicians because we need a Labour government to change the business of

:36:51.:36:53.

ruining the lives of most people in this country. That's what the

:36:54.:36:56.

Conservative Party has done with austerity. Let's leave that. That's

:36:57.:37:02.

an emotional response and I take that. But it practically, in the

:37:03.:37:07.

Labour manifesto will make last Wednesday there was a commitment to

:37:08.:37:14.

the Nato benchmark of 2% of GDP on defence spending as well as renewing

:37:15.:37:18.

the Trident nuclear deterrent. But if Jeremy Corbyn can never envisage

:37:19.:37:22.

using Trident, what's the point of paying lip service to something you

:37:23.:37:27.

will never use mustard yellow nobody imagines using Trident. Nobody

:37:28.:37:32.

really imagines using it. -- will never use? Nobody imagines using

:37:33.:37:37.

Trident. He says he will never use it. That won't deter anyone. The

:37:38.:37:43.

point is, he's not in there on his own. He's part of a Democratic party

:37:44.:37:47.

and there will be a cabinet of democratically elected politicians.

:37:48.:37:52.

Only the Prime Minister would make a critical decision on those decisions

:37:53.:37:55.

and defence. And you think if we were facing a bomb heading in our

:37:56.:38:01.

direction from Russia that he wouldn't... I really don't think he

:38:02.:38:07.

would. In terms of it being a Democratic party, isn't that a

:38:08.:38:11.

healthy thing? One of the criticisms about Theresa May's campaign is that

:38:12.:38:15.

it has been presidential in its style. It has been about her, and

:38:16.:38:19.

that might be the right approach. Very much about team May. Not much

:38:20.:38:26.

about how the country is run and Conservative Party of the Democratic

:38:27.:38:31.

party. There are 650 constituencies and individual battles in everyone.

:38:32.:38:37.

I was spending time with a great candidate in Twickenham yesterday.

:38:38.:38:40.

That did not feel presidential, it was a street by street constituency

:38:41.:38:44.

election of the kind we used to. I don't buy the narrative that we have

:38:45.:38:48.

somehow become presidential. The irony is that the people who

:38:49.:38:51.

complain about presidential elections are the very people who

:38:52.:38:57.

complain Theresa May isn't doing gay debate. Those are imports from

:38:58.:39:01.

America, the Leaders' Debate 's. And France as well. It is presidential.

:39:02.:39:07.

You can't complain that it's presidential and then say we have to

:39:08.:39:14.

have leaders debates. We have always had in this country a sense of who

:39:15.:39:17.

the Prime Minister would be after a general election and that's an

:39:18.:39:22.

entirely legitimate field of discussion. Do you think David

:39:23.:39:26.

Cameron was wrong in taking part? I never thought the leaders' debates

:39:27.:39:32.

were fitting for a parliamentary system that we have. Because it is

:39:33.:39:35.

presidential. When you put the leaders on a pedestal and ask those

:39:36.:39:41.

questions it is presidential. Then stop attacking Jeremy Corbyn if it's

:39:42.:39:45.

not about the leader. It is entirely right to question Jeremy Corbyn. You

:39:46.:39:49.

go after him because you don't want to look at the policies. The

:39:50.:39:53.

policies are the thing that really matter. I hope they will matter in

:39:54.:39:56.

this election. So, most of the parties

:39:57.:39:59.

are publishing their "Hurrah", I hear you say.

:40:00.:40:01.

"Extra bedtime reading!" And do they have any

:40:02.:40:04.

effect on how people vote? Ellie Price has been

:40:05.:40:08.

in Newcastle with the trusty Welcome to Gateshead and Newcastle,

:40:09.:40:10.

where there is an air of anticipation because this week

:40:11.:40:22.

the parties will publish But the big question -

:40:23.:40:25.

do the manifestos affect Although I was brought up to be

:40:26.:40:29.

a Labour voter my parents Diane Abbott, Jeremy Corbyn?

:40:30.:40:37.

Thornberry? So there's nothing they can

:40:38.:40:42.

say in their manifesto? The Tories are going to concentrate

:40:43.:40:46.

on Brexit and try and get a strong and stable leadership

:40:47.:40:51.

which is the shallow one-liner that Mrs May's decided she's

:40:52.:40:54.

going to come out with. I don't think we're going

:40:55.:40:56.

to get anything more. The manifestos are

:40:57.:40:59.

coming out this week. Will that affect the way you vote?

:41:00.:41:02.

Probably not. Because I couldn't vote for Corbyn

:41:03.:41:04.

if he was the last man on Earth. And whatever he says

:41:05.:41:09.

in his manifesto? Because he wouldn't be

:41:10.:41:10.

able to carry it out. And does it matter what's

:41:11.:41:14.

in the Tory manifesto then? Will you vote for them?

:41:15.:41:16.

Yes. Regardless of what's

:41:17.:41:19.

in the manifesto? I'll probably read it, well,

:41:20.:41:20.

I'll scan through it because I'm not going to read the whole thing,

:41:21.:41:27.

it's about 50-odd The manifestos always

:41:28.:41:29.

lie to you, don't they? Any of you going to bother reading

:41:30.:41:32.

the party manifestos? I've already kind of made my mind up

:41:33.:41:45.

where I'm going to go but I'll definitely read them to give

:41:46.:41:55.

everybody an equal chance. If you don't read the manifesto,

:41:56.:41:57.

you don't know what they're going to do and it's quite important

:41:58.:42:00.

to know what's happening Corbyn's been a good leader,

:42:01.:42:02.

I think he'd be a good We know what's in the manifesto.

:42:03.:42:10.

We know what's in it. Would the manifestos

:42:11.:42:19.

change the way you vote? Probably not because I think I'm

:42:20.:42:22.

just going to vote for the best option for getting rid

:42:23.:42:26.

of the Tories. Yeah, in this case it is

:42:27.:42:27.

going to be tactical. The Labour seats in this

:42:28.:42:31.

part of the world have The results of our mood box

:42:32.:42:38.

today, pretty marginal. But overall it seems that no,

:42:39.:42:42.

the party manifestos won't influence Joining me now is Tim Bale,

:42:43.:42:45.

professor of politics from Perhaps no surprise, the result of

:42:46.:43:05.

that very unscientific mood box. Is there any evidence manifestos can

:43:06.:43:08.

make a difference and persuade people to change their vote? There

:43:09.:43:11.

is not a lot of evidence to suggest people read them in the first place.

:43:12.:43:16.

However, having said that, there is evidence that indirectly they can

:43:17.:43:19.

make a difference. Broadcasters such as yourself and the print media pick

:43:20.:43:24.

up on them and they are the only authoritative statement of what the

:43:25.:43:29.

parties will do after they get into government. That's why we are so

:43:30.:43:31.

desperate to have them. And they are coming shortly this week. You see

:43:32.:43:36.

them broadly as an asset rather than liability? It rather depends on

:43:37.:43:40.

what's in them. One of the problems for Labour and the league, there was

:43:41.:43:44.

an upside in that it got people talking about it. And they will have

:43:45.:43:50.

another go. It also gave GCHQ and anybody who wants to attack the

:43:51.:43:53.

Labour Party to do all the costings and suggest the manifesto will cost

:43:54.:43:59.

this much instead of what Labour say it will cost. In many ways it could

:44:00.:44:04.

be a liability. The parties hold a lot of stalled by them. I know they

:44:05.:44:08.

haven't had as much time in this election but they spend a lot of

:44:09.:44:11.

time and thought on the manifestos and producing big documents. They

:44:12.:44:15.

know most people probably don't read them in depth but they still do

:44:16.:44:20.

them. There are several reasons to do that. The first is to mobilise

:44:21.:44:24.

their own activists. You want your own people going on the doorstep to

:44:25.:44:27.

be enthused about the policies they are selling and they have to have an

:44:28.:44:31.

idea of what the policies are. That's not the only reason. Parties

:44:32.:44:37.

also have to decide where they stand and the manifesto process is a

:44:38.:44:40.

really good way of doing that. It's a good way of sorting out arguments

:44:41.:44:44.

within the party periodically. And if you think you are going to be in

:44:45.:44:49.

government, they are vital because these are the documents civil

:44:50.:44:52.

servants pour over in a few weeks before polling day so when new

:44:53.:44:58.

ministers come into posts or the old ministers, they can present those

:44:59.:45:02.

ministers with a brief and say, this is what you said you will do. This

:45:03.:45:06.

is what we think you can do and let's work on it. And holds you to

:45:07.:45:10.

it. Absolutely, that's the other function, accountability.

:45:11.:45:15.

In terms of other previous elections are there any notable examples of

:45:16.:45:21.

where there was an upturn, if you like, in the polls as a result of

:45:22.:45:25.

the manifesto being published or a downturn, or any particular

:45:26.:45:29.

policies? It is difficult to pinpoint a downturn but what you can

:45:30.:45:33.

say is the danger of manifestos for governments is they can create

:45:34.:45:37.

hostages to fortune. The 1970 Conservative government is a good

:45:38.:45:41.

example, they came from opposition with a whole lot of detailed

:45:42.:45:44.

policies they then tried to implement without much flexibility

:45:45.:45:48.

or change and they got into trouble. They got stuck and had to do a

:45:49.:45:51.

U-turn and that government was one of the most unsuccessful and most

:45:52.:45:55.

unpopular. The Liberal Democrats promising they would get rid of fees

:45:56.:45:59.

and then going into government and turning Turkey on it almost

:46:00.:46:03.

immediately. For the young who had voted for them and come out in

:46:04.:46:08.

droves that really stuck in their gullet. Is that a warning for the

:46:09.:46:12.

Labour Party in this manifesto? It is always important if you are going

:46:13.:46:16.

to do something you have to be treated. Scrapping tuition fees is

:46:17.:46:19.

going to be something for the Labour Party will hold two? You've got to

:46:20.:46:22.

be careful about what you promise because if you get in there you must

:46:23.:46:26.

deliver it. It is a good point about the Liberal Democrats with tuition

:46:27.:46:29.

fees because that is a classic example of something they give a

:46:30.:46:33.

commitment to do. The justification of being in coalition didn't wash.

:46:34.:46:39.

It didn't wash. It damaged them terribly. You can see that it did

:46:40.:46:43.

long-term damage in the next Parliament. The Labour manifesto, a

:46:44.:46:49.

lot of it was leaked, and the upside is, of course, that voters got to

:46:50.:46:52.

see some of the quite popular policies that Labour are putting

:46:53.:46:57.

forward and the polling shows they are popular. People also saw,

:46:58.:47:00.

forgive me, that the numbers didn't add up. It costs 7 billion to scrap

:47:01.:47:07.

tuition fees. They are announcing 37 billion for the NHS. You talk about

:47:08.:47:11.

the nationalisation, they will buy back into public ownership large

:47:12.:47:15.

amounts of privatised utilities. This is not credible, it does not

:47:16.:47:18.

add up, it costs a huge amount of money and there is no way they can

:47:19.:47:23.

credibly raise this amount from tax. Helena Kennedy, the manifesto on the

:47:24.:47:28.

leadership, will the manifesto be the document, as Tim Bale said, for

:47:29.:47:33.

activists and candidates out on the doorstep to move away from Jeremy

:47:34.:47:36.

Corbyn's leadership which is not polling well? I'm sure on the

:47:37.:47:40.

doorstep people are saying, look at what we are offering you, look at

:47:41.:47:45.

the way we will take you back to a principle set of Labour policies,

:47:46.:47:50.

which are about making sure you have living standards raised again, you

:47:51.:47:54.

have proper jobs. Because Jeremy Corbyn isn't going to be the focal

:47:55.:47:58.

point for the candidates? We've got to take it away from this business

:47:59.:48:01.

which is let's keep talking about Jeremy Corbyn and the things he has

:48:02.:48:06.

done in the past. He is key to your whole policy. Let's cast ahead to

:48:07.:48:12.

the future, could there be a time that we don't have manifestos

:48:13.:48:15.

bearing in mind voters are cynical about parties for one reason or

:48:16.:48:18.

another when they don't follow through on those policies and their

:48:19.:48:21.

breeches for manifesto commitments. Is it really worth doing? I think he

:48:22.:48:25.

will never have a situation where party doesn't have a manifesto. A

:48:26.:48:31.

big written document? We can have a discussion about how long it should

:48:32.:48:35.

be. 25,000 words is probably a bit on the long side. But there will

:48:36.:48:41.

always be a document which people can refer to once the party wins the

:48:42.:48:45.

election, whichever party it is, that they can measure the

:48:46.:48:48.

performance of the party and government to what they said. You've

:48:49.:48:53.

always got to have that degree of accountability. What about the big

:48:54.:48:57.

reveal? Quite often in a manifesto there is a sort of an offer, a

:48:58.:49:01.

reveal that captures the imagination. What should that be in

:49:02.:49:05.

the Conservative manifesto? I think today with what we are doing with

:49:06.:49:08.

workers' rights, it is a bit together the interesting and

:49:09.:49:12.

exciting development for the Conservative Party. As the Prime

:49:13.:49:15.

Minister said, this is the biggest and widest extension of workers'

:49:16.:49:18.

rights any Conservative government will have proposed. And four Labour?

:49:19.:49:22.

I think it is the fact there will be a complete rethinking on the whole

:49:23.:49:26.

tax system and what you have called the Robin Hood tax in fact will

:49:27.:49:31.

actually take us back to the kind of things Labour should have talked

:49:32.:49:34.

about for many years. Are you looking forward to them coming out

:49:35.:49:36.

and will you be studying them in detail? I am and even though they

:49:37.:49:41.

are academic I will be studying them. They will be piling up on your

:49:42.:49:43.

desk. Thank you for joining us. Let's get a round-up of all

:49:44.:49:45.

the other campaign news today. Over to you. I certainly am and for

:49:46.:49:55.

anyone out there pounding the pavements on the campaign trail

:49:56.:49:58.

today, good luck to them because it's pretty wet around.

:49:59.:50:02.

So I'm out here in solidarity with them. In the mixed today for you we

:50:03.:50:07.

have a new signing 14 Labour, a Conservative councillor who has come

:50:08.:50:10.

a cropper on Twitter, and if there is any secret One Direction fans you

:50:11.:50:14.

are watching, and you know who you are, we have something for you too.

:50:15.:50:20.

Sit back and enjoyed today's campaign round-up.

:50:21.:50:23.

The former Communist Party member and senior United official Andrew

:50:24.:50:29.

Murray is reported to have joined Labour's campaign team, he is a

:50:30.:50:33.

long-standing friend and ally of Jeremy Corbyn and Exchequer of the

:50:34.:50:36.

Stop the War Coalition. Andrew Murray is said to be on secondment

:50:37.:50:41.

to help Labour's final push in the general election campaign. Labour

:50:42.:50:43.

told us it does not comment on staffing markets. Meanwhile there is

:50:44.:50:50.

a Labour Party split in Liverpool. Anderson is reported to have vowed

:50:51.:50:55.

never to work with Daniel Carden the man selected over him to be Labour's

:50:56.:50:58.

MP candidate. In a message leaked to the Liverpool Echo Mayor Anderson

:50:59.:51:02.

reportedly wrote I will not work with him either now or in the

:51:03.:51:06.

future. A Conservative councillor has been suspended for an offensive

:51:07.:51:10.

tweet about gypsies which appeared on his account during the Eurovision

:51:11.:51:14.

Song Contest. Nick Harrington of Warwick District Council has been

:51:15.:51:18.

relieved of his duties at the six months. The authorities said an

:51:19.:51:22.

internal investigation is planned. At a London press conference Ukip's

:51:23.:51:26.

economy spokesman today talked about the party deciding to stand aside in

:51:27.:51:29.

some seats for pro Brexit candidates. I think it's just a

:51:30.:51:33.

radically changed political context in which accounts for the fewer

:51:34.:51:38.

number of candidates. The party is fielding a much reduced number of

:51:39.:51:43.

candidates compared with the 2015 general election. Nicola Sturgeon

:51:44.:51:46.

put in an appearance at a rather soggy Hamilton this morning. The

:51:47.:51:51.

First Minister says she wants whoever the next Prime Minister is

:51:52.:51:54.

to include the Scottish Government at the Brexit negotiating table. At

:51:55.:51:58.

least one person was feeling the love.

:51:59.:52:02.

Tim Farron's been addressing the Royal College nursing. Does it feel

:52:03.:52:07.

like conversation and debate in this country has been closed in some way?

:52:08.:52:12.

The Prime Minister and her senior colleagues hiding away from the

:52:13.:52:14.

public. He took a swipe at Theresa May for

:52:15.:52:22.

not fronting up in the TV debates. While One Direction star Harry

:52:23.:52:26.

Stiles has come out as a Remainer, saying he is behind whoever is

:52:27.:52:31.

against Brexit. Tim Farron said Harry is right, the only direction

:52:32.:52:33.

the government is going in is the wrong one.

:52:34.:52:38.

Now, in the run up to the General Election we've been

:52:39.:52:43.

taking a look at some of the smaller parties hoping to win seats.

:52:44.:52:46.

Today it's the turn of the English Democrats.

:52:47.:52:48.

The English Democrats was founded in 2002, and is campaigning

:52:49.:52:52.

It currently has around 2500 followers on Twitter.

:52:53.:52:55.

It wants a referendum on the creation of an English Parliament.

:52:56.:53:02.

And it's calling for the Barnett Formula to be scrapped.

:53:03.:53:05.

The party condemns political correctness,

:53:06.:53:07.

It also wants to make it compulsory for all state-maintained public

:53:08.:53:14.

buildings in England to fly the English flag.

:53:15.:53:16.

And the leader Robin Tilbrook joins me now.

:53:17.:53:22.

Welcome back to the Daily Politics. You are calling for a referendum for

:53:23.:53:28.

an Ingush parliament. Do you think there is an appetite for another

:53:29.:53:31.

referendum bearing in mind we have had quite a lot recently. I think

:53:32.:53:35.

there might well be. We will certainly give it a go and see where

:53:36.:53:38.

we stand in the selection to make that point and to get people to

:53:39.:53:43.

start thinking about what should happen for England. Because after

:53:44.:53:47.

all, we were talking about the manifestos, but the fact is none of

:53:48.:53:51.

the establishment parties are going to do anything in the way of an

:53:52.:53:56.

English manifesto. They have Scottish manifestos, Welsh

:53:57.:53:58.

manifestos but nothing for England. As a result of that do you think

:53:59.:54:01.

there is an appetite for the outcome you are proposing if they were to be

:54:02.:54:05.

a referendum on an Ingush parliament? There isn't any

:54:06.:54:08.

interest. When returning my nomination papers the returning

:54:09.:54:12.

officer said he felt pretty sure if the English were asked in an

:54:13.:54:16.

independence referendum for Scotland they would vote overwhelmingly that

:54:17.:54:20.

the Scots should go. If you look at your support it has dropped

:54:21.:54:25.

dramatically from 2010 two 2015 and in 2015 new fielded 35 candidates

:54:26.:54:29.

and now you are fielding seven. It feels as if this is a diminishing

:54:30.:54:34.

party in that sense. I don't think we are a diminishing party. In

:54:35.:54:37.

fairness we were thinking the election would be in 2020. I take

:54:38.:54:42.

that note and you were not alone in. As a result of that you offer is a

:54:43.:54:49.

bit meagre, let us put it like that. That is fair but we thought we would

:54:50.:54:52.

do an effort in the Manchester mayoral election and we did

:54:53.:54:56.

reasonably well, we beat Ukip in the Manchester mayoral elections and we

:54:57.:54:58.

were feeling quite pleased with ourselves until we suddenly had a

:54:59.:55:02.

snap election and we were left with a situation where we were not really

:55:03.:55:06.

prepared for that. Ukip is also under pressure as the local

:55:07.:55:10.

elections proved. Do you think it's over for pro Brexit anti-immigration

:55:11.:55:16.

parties like yourselves? No. It may be for Ukip. Ukip is specifically

:55:17.:55:22.

about the UK Independence Party as we are about England. Being this

:55:23.:55:25.

question has not really started to be properly addressed by the British

:55:26.:55:29.

establishment. You think there is support for it but there is no

:55:30.:55:31.

evidence there would be. I put to you again. Opinion polls have asked

:55:32.:55:40.

whether even should this Parliament and over 60% supported. I do think

:55:41.:55:45.

there is support. OK, if you are right, David Cameron picked up on

:55:46.:55:48.

that and introduced English votes for English laws. So he answered

:55:49.:55:53.

your question. I don't think he did, the English votes for English laws

:55:54.:55:56.

system is very technical. It doesn't really give an answer to the English

:55:57.:56:02.

question, which the government's inquiry was... He would say it was

:56:03.:56:05.

putting England first. It was a first offer. We were not against him

:56:06.:56:11.

doing it but at the same time I don't think it gets anywhere near

:56:12.:56:16.

the realist you, which is not just about the representation of an

:56:17.:56:19.

English Parliament. It's also about government. And in fact, one of the

:56:20.:56:22.

interesting things about the manifesto leak we had with Labour,

:56:23.:56:27.

is for the first time it looks like there is a British establishment

:56:28.:56:31.

party going to say there should be Secretary of State for Scotland,

:56:32.:56:34.

which there is already, but also for England.

:56:35.:56:36.

One of the things Theresa May has said in this election that

:56:37.:56:41.

extremists are seeking to divide and separatists are trying to break up

:56:42.:56:43.

this country. Who do you think she was talking about? I would certainly

:56:44.:56:51.

think she meant by separatist, some of the things Mike Iupati because we

:56:52.:56:55.

are separatist. We do want to see England as a separate nation state.

:56:56.:57:00.

What's wrong with that? IME unionist so I believe in the argument against

:57:01.:57:05.

Scottish independence. Do you think English rights are properly

:57:06.:57:10.

represented? As Robin suggests there is a debate about the nature of the

:57:11.:57:15.

union, people like Robin Redwood in my party, David Cameron bringing

:57:16.:57:18.

forward English votes for English laws, this is something that is

:57:19.:57:21.

subject to debate but I'm not sure the best vehicle to announce the

:57:22.:57:25.

Mark Evans it is Robin's party and that's why I am a conservative. --

:57:26.:57:29.

best vehicle to There's just time before we go

:57:30.:57:40.

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was what did

:57:41.:57:44.

Russian President, Vladimir Putin do before

:57:45.:57:46.

meeting Chinese President A) Ride through Beijing

:57:47.:57:48.

on a Harley Davidson. B) Explore sunken shipwrecks

:57:49.:57:52.

in the South China Sea. C) Practise judo with a Chinese

:57:53.:57:54.

national champion or D) play Soviet

:57:55.:57:56.

era songs on a grand piano. Have you got the answer? I am

:57:57.:58:05.

struggling with this one. I think the piano sounds plausible. Helena?

:58:06.:58:15.

I think he went to the South China Sea to Sea shipwrecks. Let's see who

:58:16.:58:19.

is right. Now, one might say Kwasi Kwarteng is

:58:20.:58:23.

right, he was playing old Soviet songs on the piano.

:58:24.:58:26.

They are not exactly once I was familiar with. What do you think? Is

:58:27.:58:34.

it time to stick to the day job rather than being a concert pianist.

:58:35.:58:39.

I was struggling, I didn't recognise the tune. You didn't recognise the

:58:40.:58:43.

tunes at all. We're used to him being bare-chested and riding. Their

:58:44.:58:46.

chested and deep sea diving! That's all for today -

:58:47.:58:48.

thanks to our guests. Particularly for you for being our

:58:49.:58:51.

guests of the day. I'll be here at noon tomorrow

:58:52.:58:54.

with all the big political stories

:58:55.:58:58.

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative Kwasi Kwarteng and Labour peer Baroness Kennedy for the latest coverage of the general election campaign, including Theresa May's pledge to expand workers' rights and Labour's promise of £37bn for the NHS.