Browse content similar to 17/05/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
The Liberal Democrats release their manifesto today, | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
focusing on a pledge to give people a final say on the Brexit deal | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
in a referendum and a raft of policies for young people. | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
Theresa May and Philip Hammond went on the attack this morning, | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
claiming there's a vast black hole in Labour's manifesto plans. | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
But Labour insist they're fully costed. | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
Unite leader Len McCluskey insists he is "now full of optimism" | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
about Labour's general election hopes despite saying in an interview | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
yesterday he could not see the party winning. | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
And the Moodbox and I find ourselves in Dumfries in south west Scotland, | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
where we're asking whether Scottish independence is a crucial | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
issue for voters here at the coming election. | :01:21. | :01:30. | |
So all that in the next hour and with us for the duration | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
Conservative peer Michael Forsyth, who served in John Major's Cabinet | :01:34. | :01:35. | |
First today, manifestos are a bit like buses - | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
you wait for ages and then they all come along at once. | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
Labour were first out of the blocks with their manifesto yesterday, | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
called "For the Many, Not the Few", today it's the turn | :01:48. | :01:55. | |
of the Liberal Democrats and tomorrow, it's the Tories. | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
The Lib Dems published their manifesto in the last few minutes. | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
It is called "Change Britain's Future", and they say | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
it's aimed at giving young people a "brighter future". | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
Yes, the flagship policy in the Liberal Democrat manifesto | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
is their pledge to have a referendum on the terms of the Brexit deal | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
The Lib Dems want to give the British people the chance | :02:19. | :02:26. | |
to reject what they say is the "extreme and divisive Brexit" | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
Aside from Brexit, the Lib Dems are offering to spend more | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
In particular, they would give the NHS and social care an extra | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
They would get that ?6 billion by raising all rates | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
And all of that extra money from income tax would be ring-fenced | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
On education, they would give just under ?7 billion to schools | :02:51. | :02:58. | |
and colleges over the course of the next parliament. | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
That would pay for things like protecting per pupil funding | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
in real terms and tripling the early years pupil premium. | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
That's extra money given to nurseries educating three | :03:10. | :03:10. | |
and four-year-olds from disadvantaged backgrounds. | :03:11. | :03:21. | |
The Lib Dems would also build new rent-to-own homes | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
people taking part in the scheme would be able to gradually buy their | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
They would reverse some of the welfare cuts. | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
For example, they would restore housing benefit | :03:32. | :03:33. | |
They would end the current cap on public sector pay. | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
And the Lib Dems would create a new young person's bus pass | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
which would give 16 to 21-year-olds in England a two-thirds | :03:42. | :03:43. | |
Let's look at Ed Davey setting out the party's Brexit policy this | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
morning. We think people are very upset | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
about Brexit here in London. Many of them voted to Remain | :03:57. | :03:58. | |
and we want to say when the Brexit deal has been done in three or four | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
years time, then people should have the right to vote on that deal | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
and say whether they like it and if they don't like it, | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
they can vote to remain I think people are worried | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
that the Theresa May-Nigel Farage coupling, where they're backing | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
an extreme form of Brexit, is very damaging to people's futures | :04:17. | :04:18. | |
particularly young people's I think people do want | :04:19. | :04:20. | |
a chance to vote again. Dick Newby, the leader | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
of the Lib Dems in the House of Lords and chair of | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
the Manifesto Working Let me just clarify. Your party has | :04:28. | :04:38. | |
ruled out joining any kind of coalition after this election? Yes. | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
So you wouldn't be in any kind of Government? No, we would not, no. | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
We're in the sail position as the Labour Party. We know who the | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
Government is going to be after the next election and we're going more | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
honest. Who is going to be the Government? The Conservative | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
Government. If you're not going to join any coalition, what's the point | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
of going through the policies with you? Well, I think people want to | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
know when they're voting for us what kind of country they're living in. | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
But you're not going into Government, what's the point? People | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
vote for people who share their values and views about how the | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
country should go going forward and that's why you have a manifesto. | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
Yes, but if the values as you're claiming are going to be the values | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
of a May Government, I assume you're going to win by a landslide and you | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
would not get involved in a coalition that could stop that from | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
happening then I say, your policies, what you stand for is irrelevant? | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
No, they're not. The details are irrelevant? From the day Parliament | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
gets back, we're going to be debating the Government's policies | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
and we're going to be voting on them and the manifesto gives a guide to | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
people about how we're going to behave and what we're going to be | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
doing in the next Parliament. One of the policies you have is to have a | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
second referendum, a referendum on the deal if and when a deal for | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
Brexit is done? Yes, that's right right. . Who said a referendum was | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
disrespectful to the voters and counter productive and who said if | :06:13. | :06:14. | |
you're having two referendums you might as well have three? Well... | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
Who said that? It doesn't matter who said it. Vince Cable said it. Yes. | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
Of the Lib Dems who is on your frontbench team. Disrespectful? What | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
we're saying is that people voted for a departure. They have no idea | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
last year what they were going to get. So we say at the end of the | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
process, there are only two lots of people who can decide - what we do | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
about Brexit. Either, MPs, or the people. If MPs, if it was left to | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
MPs before the last referendum, they would have been, they were | :06:49. | :06:50. | |
completely out-of-touch with the people. So we think a process | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
started by the people should be completed by the people. | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
But if the European Union knows that there is going to be a referendum on | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
the outcome of the negotiations, that gives them a huge incentive to | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
give us the worst possible deal? No, I think you're pinning too much | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
faith on the powers of persuasion of the Lib Dems there. People in | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
Europe... I never made that mistake before? I didn't think you had, but | :07:17. | :07:24. | |
I think that people in Europe are negotiating on the basis of getting | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
a deal which they think is in the long-term interests of the EU on the | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
basis that we will leave. That's the only way they can do it, but it | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
doesn't mean that that rules out us having a final say on it. If I'm | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
negotiating for Brussels, and you're negotiating for Britain, and I know | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
that you have to put whatever you agree to the British people, I'm | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
going to try and give you a punishment beat soing that the | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
British will think we didn't real identities it was going to be as bad | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
as this, we're going to need visas to go there, we can't work anymore, | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
oh, let's vote against it. I'm not going to give you a Free Trade | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
Agreement and not going to give you tariff reason free trade, am I? But | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
why does that work for the British people and not Parliamentarians? | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
Somebody decides, Andrew, it isn't just the Prime Minister, you have | :08:13. | :08:14. | |
one body of people deciding in Parliament or a larger body of | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
people, the condition deciding, they're going to react in the same | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
sort of way to the attitude and the deal that comes out of Brussels | :08:23. | :08:24. | |
surely. When would the referendum be? Well, the Prime Minister says | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
she can complete the negotiations within the time frame. So you would | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
have it when she come back with a deal. Would there be enough time? | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
Well, she says there is. She has not been that explicit at when it can be | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
done? I think your contention if the country was to vote against the deal | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
we would stay in the EU? That would be the proposition. Who in Brussels | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
led you to believe that would be the case? Well, I think it's pretty | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
clear from all the lawyers, from someone like Lord Kerr who wrote | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
Article 50 that it is revocable, you can stop the process if you want to | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
do. Have you had any indication from Brussels that that is the case? | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
That's how they view it or have the European Court of Justice view it | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
that way? Senior officials in the EU have said that the article is | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
revocable. Who are they? Former advisors to the commission. Former | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
members of the European Court of Justice. Who are they? Well, I | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
haven't got a list of their names, but there is a long list of names | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
and John Kerr who wrote it. He is just an observer now. Yeah, but he | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
knew what was in people's minds when it was written because he had the | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
pen. I suggest he didn't because when he wrote it, he never thought | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
it would happen. He wrote it as entirely academic exercise? Well, he | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
is not a flippant sort of chap. I wouldn't say that. He just didn't | :09:54. | :09:55. | |
think it would happenment you didn't think it would happen. Well, nobody | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
thought it was going to happen, did they? No, some people did. A lot of | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
people didn'tment one of them was Nick Clegg. I want to run you this | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
clip of what he said. This is before the country gave its verdict on | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
Brexit and he was speaking at the Oxford Union, he was debating with | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
Nigel Farage, it was in December 2015, before we got to the | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
referendum. Sure. But what would happen if we had one. This is Mr | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
Clegg. There will be some voices and I hope it won't be Nigel or Sir | :10:29. | :12:36. | |
People and not all voting on Brexit in this general election for that | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
they are voting whether they think Jeremy Corbyn is said to be Prime | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
Minister. Your whole appeal in this campaign has been on Brexit. That is | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
your distinguishing thing. That's the one thing that does distinguish | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
you. Yes, that's what we're fighting. It is what makes you a | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
Japanese soldier in the jungle. It over, you lost, it's gone the come | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
on out, put your hands up, we will look after you. Somebody decides, | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
Andrew, the MP for them is that MPs or the people? We think it will be | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
the people. People were decided twice, in the referendum and in this | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
election. No, because we don't know the deal. We know what the Prime | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
Minister wants, which is a large measure of having the Government, | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
but we don't know what is going to get. Many things are definitely not | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
going to happen so who knows where we're going to be in the process. | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
Your election strategy has been based on the 48% who voted remain. | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
You want to pick as many of them but the latest polls suggest you miss | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
read the mood of the British people and it no longer exists, this 48% | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
force of the country now seems divided into 45% of hard levers, not | :13:52. | :14:03. | |
as much as the 52 who voted, and 23% are voting to remain but they accept | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
the outcome and have come out of the jungle, put their hands up and said, | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
we know it's over. And only 22% are hard remainders and you are | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
struggling even to get them. The strategy is flawed. | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
No, we fight elections on what we believe. We're also fighting as Jo | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
was explaining how do you fund the NHS on a sustainable basis? How do | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
you stop schools having cuts per pupil of in some cases of over 10%? | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
All these things that we're talking about on the doorstep. Some people | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
have Brexit at the top of their minds, a lot of people don't | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
frankly. A lot of people are more interested in whether they can get | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
to hospital quickly so we're setting out how you would deal with those | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
problems as well. Your manifesto would be a guide as to how you will | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
vote in Parliament, under the next Government? It is, absolutely. All | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
right. What would be a good result for you? Oh, a good result would be | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
a significant increase in votes and seats. What would significant be? | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
Well, significant means substantial. What does substantial mean? Well, it | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
is roughly the same as significant! LAUGHTER | :15:15. | :15:16. | |
I put a number on either of them, what would you think? Only a fool | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
would that. What's it like in the jungle? I'm enjoying it. Leave him | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
alone. Remember my former leader, Lord Ashdown was a jungle warrior. | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
He was indeed. Don't go down that line! | :15:34. | :15:34. | |
Thank you. Let me pick up on the last point of | :15:35. | :15:45. | |
Andrew made about domestic policies, the NHS. The Lib Dems have come | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
forward with a bold policy of raising all rates of income tax by | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
1%, and that money will go into funding the NHS. No, not at all. As | :15:53. | :16:00. | |
the headlines say today, living standards are under pressure and the | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
idea you can help them by putting a penny on income tax at all levels is | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
foolish and the lesson we have learned from the reductions in tax | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
made for example when we cut the top rate of tax, its revenues go up so | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
if you're going to put up tax, in the longer term you're going to get | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
less revenue and that's not a sensible policy and you will also | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
reduce people's living standards. You're expecting no tax rises in the | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
Conservative manifesto of any sort? I would be surprised if there's any | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
income tax rises. You would like to see the lock David Cameron put on, | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
not raising income tax? No, I'm against making gimmicks and foolish | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
promises in manifestos because they come back to bite you. You say | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
because of the squeeze on living standards you wouldn't want to seek | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
increases in living tax but actually, if you look at spending on | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
health, the ISS, which actually, once you take into the age of the | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
population, the amount of money we're spending on health per person | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
will be lower in 2019-21 it was in 2009-10. People may not want to pay | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
more income tax but I don't think they also want their standards of | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
health care to be going down either. Know, and the way we get more | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
spending on the health service is by increasing the tax base, not by | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
increasing the rates, and we do that by getting growth in the economy, | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
investing in the economy and perceiving the kind of policies... | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
We've had growth in the economy, admittedly lower than expected in | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
the last quarter, but we've had growth in the economy and the IDF as | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
state spending per person on health will be low in 2019-20 than 2009. | :17:37. | :17:44. | |
The spending commitments made by the present Government are considerably | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
in excess of those that were promised by the Labour Party when | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
they stood in the last general election. I'm asking about the | :17:52. | :17:53. | |
comparison between what the Conservatives that they were going | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
to do and what the Lib Dems are offering to do in terms of boosting | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
health spending. If you look at education, the schools budget now we | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
know was facing real terms cuts of ?3 billion or 8% by 2019-20, and you | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
have to take into account the rise in pupil numbers. In the | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
Conservative manifesto you pledged as the number of pupils increased, | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
so will the aunt of money in schools, a real terms increase in | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
schools budgets in the next Parliament for that you've broken | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
that pledge for the blue could be honest like the Lib Dems who say | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
they will put more money into schools by raising income tax. We | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
have put more money into schools. The criticism would be the | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
expenditure per head has not increased. But the total | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
expenditure... A real terms increase, even if pupil numbers go | :18:42. | :18:49. | |
up, and that, you're not going to do by 2019-20. We have increased the | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
schools budget. But not in real terms. You are on the wrong argument | :18:53. | :19:02. | |
in my opinion. Hang on, second, it's a political argument and the | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
political argument is you shouldn't measure success in education by the | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
amount you're spending. If you look at what has happened for example in | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
England, where education is in school 's performance has soared | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
ahead of Scotland, where they spent 20% more, there is no direct | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
relationship between the performance of schools and the amount you spend. | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
But it was a promise he made on the 2015 manifesto and, in terms of | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
rising pupil numbers, real terms, they will be cuts in pupil spending. | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
You may claim there is no relationship between spending and | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
outcomes, and that's perfectly credible, but it's about pledges | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
which are made in manifestos. Well, that's why I hope our manifesto will | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
be short on firm commitments and sat out the broad approach which we will | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
take towards running the economy and that includes living within our | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
means. Listening to talking about health and education spending, you | :19:54. | :19:55. | |
would think we were not actually living beyond our means of more than | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
?50 billion a year. And our national debt has grown to, if Labour had | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
their way, it would be ?2 trillion. Although the Tories have been | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
underpowered and the coalition and in their own. And we have been | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
criticised for not spending enough. We believe that there. Thank you. | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
-- we believe that there. -- we will leave that there. | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
The question for today is which book series did Theresa May | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
reveal she was a fan of on the campaign trail yesterday? | :20:31. | :20:32. | |
At the end of the show Michael will give us the correct answer. | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
So, the day after Labour's manifesto and perhaps not surprisingly, | :20:41. | :20:49. | |
the Conservatives have spent the morning on the attack. | :20:50. | :20:51. | |
Speaking in London at a joint news conference with the Chancellor, | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
Philip Hammond, Theresa May has dismissed Labour's election | :20:55. | :20:56. | |
manifesto as a "fantasy wish list of easy promises". | :20:57. | :21:06. | |
While Jeremy Corbyn and Labour retreat into an ideological comfort | :21:07. | :21:08. | |
zone, ducking the difficult challenges which lie ahead, | :21:09. | :21:10. | |
I won't shy away from facing the challenges of our time. | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
Rather I will set out how we will tackle them | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
head-on because that is what leadership is about. | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
One of Jeremy Corbyn's key allies, Unite leader Len McCluskey, | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
insists he is "now full of optimism" about Labour's general election | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
hopes despite saying in an interview yesterday he could not see | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
The union boss told Politico magazine a Labour victory would be | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
"extraordinary" and suggested winning just 200 seats would be | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
But this morning, he did a massive U-turn after an "incredible" | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
The response has been like something we've never seen before, | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
If I was having that interview today I wouldn't be making those comments. | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
I think also the Labour campaign has been brilliant. | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
Jeremy Corbyn has come across as a real man | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
Len McCluskey. What a difference 24 hours makes. We used to say a week | :22:10. | :22:24. | |
is a long time and now it's 24 hours. | :22:25. | :22:25. | |
To discuss all this is Barry Gardiner, the Shadow Secretary | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
Welcome back to the programme. You say the current spending plans you | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
have will be balanced by increases in tax. But is there any limit on | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
the amount you would borrow for public investment? Yes, there is a | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
limit on what we would borrow for public investment because we have | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
set out clearly that we would put in place a transformation programme, | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
which is going to borrow 25 billion a year for a 10-year period. That's | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
what we have set out. So the borrowing that we are taking into | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
account is in that capital programme. But you would borrow more | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
than 25 million because he would inherit as the rest of the decade | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
went on, existing capital spending, about 50 billion a year by the end | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
of the decade. You would add 25 billion a year onto that. There's | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
also the national investment bank to consider and the cost of | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
nationalisation as well, so you would be borrowing at least 75 | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
billion by the end of the decade and maybe more than 100 billion or more. | :23:35. | :23:42. | |
I think if you look at the tax which has come this morning from the | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
Conservatives, what they have done is they have actually put into | :23:47. | :23:48. | |
capital many things which are actually revenue spending. I'm not | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
using the Conservative figures. I don't know which figures you are | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
using. The figures from the OBR and the red book. You are going to try | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
and balance the current budget and borrow to invest. So you will | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
inherit about 50 billion a year and added 25 billion to that and there | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
are other things which could fall under cap ex which you would borrow | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
to finance as well. So what I'm saying is, by the end of the decade, | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
you could be borrowing almost twice as much as we are borrowing at the | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
moment on these figures. What is wrong with that analysis? Let me say | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
what borders that analysis and constrains it because of course what | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
we have said is, by the end of the Parliament, we would have the debt | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
reduced from where it stands today. Now, that therefore puts a | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
constraint on what we would do. Define reduce. Very easy. The debt | :24:47. | :24:54. | |
in 2010 was ?979 billion, immediately after the financial | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
crisis. Today it is 1700 and ?31 billion. It has gone up by ?750 | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
billion under the Conservatives. We have said at the end of the | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
parliament it will be lower than it is today. Using what metric? It's | :25:09. | :25:16. | |
not going to be lower in absolute terms. You are going to add to the | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
debt every year. What we are doing is we're going to certainly reduce | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
the trend rate of growth of the debt by the end of that. No, watch | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
manifesto says that you're going to reduce debt as a percentage of trend | :25:31. | :25:37. | |
GDP, that's what it says. What is trend GDP? The GDP is a measure of | :25:38. | :25:45. | |
product... I know why GDP is so what is trend GDP? It is how GDP is | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
growing declining in the economy. Said he would not measured against | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
the GDP for a year but on your estimate of what you think the trend | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
is going forward? My understanding of the figures that the Treasury | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
team have produced is that we would be measuring it in the same way as | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
the Government has set out. But as a trend, so you can be quite flexible | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
but the trend? The GDP is the GDP but we can all have different views | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
on the trend, and you could have the ability to take the highest trend | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
and say, as a percentage of GDP, debt has gone down. There is a | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
simple answer to this, though, and that is that the Office for Budget | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
Responsibility should be able to look at both the Labour Party | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
manifesto's promises and our spending commitments as we have | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
requested the Government to doom and to have the Conservative manifesto | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
vetted in exactly the same way. If we do that, then we have an | :26:47. | :26:54. | |
independent body that can look at both manifestos and say, which one | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
actually stacks up? I understand that. We have given the clearest | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
indication of where all our spending commitments are coming from and how | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
they are going to be funded and that is in the document we have. I'm | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
talking about the Capital One, because that's big and vague. Can I | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
pick you up on one thing you mentioned. I think it was mistaken. | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
Where you talked about the nationalisation programme. That's | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
what I wanted to ask you so let me ask you this, will the money for | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
nationalisation, the cost of nationalisation, come out of the 25 | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
billion a year of what to call the National transformation fund? I | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
think there's a mistake in which the way the nationalisation programme is | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
going to work. Example, if you look at the way in which the proposals | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
are put forward for the National Grid, it's not too by the National | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
Grid as such, what it does is it alters licensing conditions. Now, | :28:03. | :28:09. | |
under the 89 electricity acts, and the 2006 utilities act, the way in | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
which the licensing is set up at the moment means that the capital assets | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
and the licence to operate for the district network operations are | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
combined and there's no end to that licensing process. What we are | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
proposing is to introduce a termination to those licenses so you | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
would actually separate the capital and the licensing. So you are not | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
going to nationalise the National Grid? It may happen at the end of | :28:41. | :28:48. | |
the process. The grid itself, the assets, could be purchased, but it's | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
rather like saying, the analogy of the railways. It's like saying you | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
have the network, the Railtrack itself, and you have a licence to | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
operate on its. At the moment, they are combined. If I can just make a | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
financial point... Will the network be state owned? At the moment, the | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
value that National Grid has as a company, it comes from the | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
integration of the licence and the capital assets. If you separate | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
them, it radically affects the value. Wilner State take over the | :29:24. | :29:31. | |
grade? It would still only assets. If you look at the way the National | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
Grid talks about its own future, it's very much on a regional grid | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
basis, looking at the district and regional network operators as being | :29:42. | :29:48. | |
able to... I'm lost. Is the National Grid going to be state owned or not? | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
There will be far greater public accountability... It's not the same. | :29:56. | :30:05. | |
So you're going to toughen up the regulations? This option for us to | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
do that. The change to the licence is exactly in the manifesto. Let me | :30:12. | :30:20. | |
show you. So you're going to put a new regulation in, not going to | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
actually buy the assets? No, I haven't said we won't buy the | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
assets, but I have said there is an option to do that but the valuations | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
would be substantially different. There would still be a tonne of | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
money. Its body got a market capital of 40 billion. And a big chunk of | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
that... What I'm trying to establish is, regardless of this, when it | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
comes to the nationalisation is you are proposing, does the cost, and | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
there will be some cost, you cut nationalise everything, does it come | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
from the 250 billion over ten years or a separate cost? | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
I think certainly some of it would come from the ?25 billion a year. | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
You're not sure? I can't give you the exact figures per year, no, I | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
can't. But money that you have said will be a national transformation | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
which is to build new assets, build new roads, new railwayses, new | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
hospitals, new schools, things which we create assets, some of that could | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
be used simply to buy existing assets? If it were, then what it | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
would be doing is it would be reducing the amount that bill payers | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
at the moment are paying to subsidise the profits that the | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
companies take out. The element of their bills that is going into | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
shareholders pockets rather than coming back into the public purse. | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
So in fact, money would then be generated, revenue would be | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
generated in a different way. So I think one has to take account of the | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
fact that if that capital were used to procure those assets, it would | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
also generate more revenue for the public purse because that revenue | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
would not be... It wouldn't generate it for the public purse, you're | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
promising to cut water rates and cut electricity rates. There wouldn't be | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
money for the public purse, it would go on the cuts? If people are not | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
spending money on water water littles or energy bills, they are | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
spending, most people in the economy will be spend it in other ways and | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
therefore, no, but it does as you will understand generate further | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
revenues for the public purse. Because they're creating tax and | :32:33. | :32:40. | |
wealth in other ways. Michael Forsyth, ma carry, an Australian | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
bank, it owned Thames Water for ten years, during that ten years it paid | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
itself or paid its shareholders ?1.6 billion in dividends, ?1.6 billion, | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
it wracked up ?10.6 billion in debt, it had a ?360 million pension | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
deficit and it paid no corporation tax. There is surely a case for | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
doing something about that? Well, there maybe a case for the | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
regulators and for doing something about that, but there is no case for | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
spending scarce capital resources on buying assets which are not a | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
priority or shouldn't be a priority for any Government. I mean, I'm just | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
listening to what, I don't really understand what is being said about | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
the National Grid, but I mean it sounds to me as if what is being | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
said they want to find a way of making sure that the shareholders | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
don't get proper value. As the shareholders are the pension funds | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
and people's pensions that doesn't make any sense at all. All right, | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
we'll unpick this further in the days to come. | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
Let's get a round-up of all the other election campaign news. | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
I am indeed. Jo, yes another beautiful day here in Westminster. | :33:48. | :34:00. | |
But we've had our eye on what the candidates have been up to around | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
the country and there is a few treats for you. So, Diane Abbott has | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
been taking on a tough crowd at the Police Federation. The Green Party | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
have an offer especially for women, but starting off this round-up for | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
any retro gaming fans out there, well, someone has created a Super | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
Mario-style campaign game. Take a look. | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
Let's play Super Tory Party versus The Coalition of Chaos. | :34:28. | :34:29. | |
Select your player and level - easy, hard or Brexit. | :34:30. | :34:38. | |
So back in the real world on the campaign trail today, | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
the Green Party is promising free sanitary products for those | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
The party has pledged to end period poverty by providing free tampons | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
The Conservatives will scrap the Severn Bridge tolls if they win | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
the general election, predicting it would bring | :34:56. | :34:57. | |
Are you a whingeing liberal elitist snowflake? | :34:58. | :35:06. | |
This Labour voter in Brighton was proud to be so. | :35:07. | :35:08. | |
The Conservative's Ruth Davidson got her bake on in Dumfries. | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
Let me try that again. Good afternoon. | :35:14. | :35:20. | |
The Police Federation were lacking a little enthusiasm | :35:21. | :35:22. | |
as they were addressed by Diane Abbott. | :35:23. | :35:24. | |
She faced a backlash over her opposition | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
And someone with way too much time on their hands made this. | :35:28. | :35:34. | |
# Strong and stable, strong and stable, strong | :35:35. | :35:54. | |
and stable, strong and stable, strong and stable #. | :35:55. | :36:04. | |
I'm not sure I imagined Theresa May ever dancing like that, but on a | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
Friday night, who knows? That's your lot. I'm back tomorrow. | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
Figures out this morning show the UK unemployment | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
rate has fallen to 4.6%, its lowest in 42 years. | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
To discuss this and the manifestos are two seasoned political | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
journalists, the Mirror's Kevin Maguire and Caroline Wheeler | :36:24. | :36:25. | |
Kevin Maguire, you've written that the Labour manifesto has lots of | :36:26. | :36:36. | |
smart ideas. Which ones were you attracted to? I think the ones that | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
the country, people are attracted to like ?10 Living Wage, more money in | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
the NHS, free school meals for primary pupils, rail | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
renationalisation, those policies are popular, but as you also know, I | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
believe unless Jeremy Corbyn becomes popular Labour will be in trouble. | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
If you're not sure about the messenger, you won't buy your | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
message. I know Len McCluskey, I know he has done a U-turn. He said | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
just 24 hours that he couldn't see Labour winning. He said he thought | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
it would be difficult. Was that sensible even 24 hours ago? Well, I | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
think it sounded the way a lot of people are and it was a rare moment | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
of honesty. Somebody breaking free from a script where everybody seems | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
to have to pretend they're going to win. You look at the opinion polls, | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
you talk to Labour MPs defending seats, you speak to Labour | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
candidates who, if they haven't got a seat, don't really expect to get a | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
seat. So Len McCluskey really was telling a truth. The other argument, | :37:38. | :37:43. | |
of course, is whether, if Labour went down from 229 seats to 200 | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
whether that would be a reasonable result and that's about who defines | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
what a defeat is, how heavy it is and then owns what happens after | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
that. Well, that, of course, will be crucial as as far as the Labour | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
Party is concerned. Caroline Wheeler, how easy would it be stand | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
on the manifesto for the Labour candidates who have been hostile to | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
Jeremy Corbyn? Well, that's the interesting thing really, we have | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
seen lots of copy written about it in our newspapers, but we're not | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
hearing very much from those MPs that are going to be standing on | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
that ticket at all. Len McCluskey is the only person that's come out and | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
endorsed it which I think speaks volumes. I think at the moment the | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
notion is they want to keep their head down and not say too much about | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
it. There has been discussion that they're not mentioning Jeremy | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
Corbyn, some are suggesting he might be removed fairly soon after the | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
general election and inn a sort of last-ditch bid to persuade voters | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
that they might be voting for something different which paints a | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
kind of picture of sort of disarray really for the party and doesn't | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
bode well really post the general election. Kevin Maguire, we have | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
interviewed one of the frontbench spokes people for the Labour Party | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
about the plans for nationalising industries and nationalising the | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
National Grid and he seemed to imply that it wouldn't be a | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
straightforward take over into state ownership, that there would be some | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
sort of reregulation. Are we clear exactly what Labour is proposing and | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
costings for their planned nationalisation? Not entirely | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
because I looked at those figures for what they proposed to raise in | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
taxes and what they proposed to spend and I think they came to ?48.6 | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
billion in a wonderful beautiful symmetry in those two tables and I | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
didn't see any figures for spending on renationalisation, but the | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
argument from Labour is public control, public accountability, | :39:37. | :39:38. | |
public ownership can take many forms. For instance on the railways, | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
as franchises come up for renewal they would be taken back so that | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
wouldn't cost anything, but some are long and it would take a long time | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
for that to happen. Water they seem to want to buy something. On the | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
National Grid we thought they wanted it take ownership of it, it sounds | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
like not now. The regional energy companies they would set-up would be | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
alternatives so they wouldn't be taking the big six which most of us | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
buy our electricity from at the moment. There is a range of answers, | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
but it sounds confusing because it is. Right. Thank you for that, for | :40:11. | :40:17. | |
clearing it up. Caroline Wheeler, unemployment is at its lowest level | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
since 1975, but real wages are being squeezed due to rising inflation now | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
at its four year high of 2. # %, how does that affect the story the | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
Government wants to tell ahead of the election? They want to tell a | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
story of the finances looking like they are in good hands particularly | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
under the Conservative Party as we head towards Brexit and we're almost | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
two years away from that. The problem they are going to have is | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
about, the age old story which is pounds and pence in your pocket and | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
that's where the notion of tax comes in. We heard the Labour Party's | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
plans on tax, to protect 95% of people from tax rises, but that does | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
impact on those that earn over ?80,000. Tomorrow will be the time | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
of the Conservative Party to tell us what they are intend to do and of | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
course, if they are going to abandon David Cameron's tax lock pledge then | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
that is going to mean that the real prospect of raising taxes, which is | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
going to hit people in the pockets, which if they're feeling the squeeze | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
maybe something that they will consider when they go into the | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
polling booth. Well, with the squeezes as perhaps the backdrop | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
today, Kevin Maguire, on the Liberal Democrats manifesto, will voters be | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
persuaded by a penny on income tax to pay for more money going into | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
health and schools? I suspect not. I have been somewhat surprised by the | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
lack of impact of the Liberal Democrats in this election. They bet | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
most of the ranch on it being a Brexit election which it hasn't | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
really felt that way. I don't think looking at that manifesto it's going | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
to be the game changer they want and it's very difficult to see them | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
winning all the seats they were talking about earlier on and I think | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
in some areas they will be struggling to hold what they've got. | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
Thank you both very much. Enjoy the campaign! | :42:00. | :42:07. | |
Just referring back to our interview with Barry Gardiner, this is what | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
the Labour manifesto says. It says, "Regain control of energy supply | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
networks through the opposition of licence conditions." I think that's | :42:17. | :42:23. | |
what Mr Gardiner was talking about and says transition to a publicly | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
owned decentralised energy system. So, it would seem that in the end | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
the idea is still whether it is anymore the National Grid or lots of | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
regional grids, it would be, it would nevertheless be publicly | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
owned. Doesn't that mean we'll make regulation so tough that the value | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
of the shares will fall and we'll buy them on the cheap. I have no | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
idea really what it means. I will have to do some more homework. | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
Throughout the campaign we're taking the Daily Politics Moodbox around | :42:55. | :42:56. | |
the country to test the mood of the public. | :42:57. | :42:58. | |
Hello, Andrew. Let me start by quoting a local. We two paddled in | :42:59. | :43:14. | |
this strael. The Moodbox and I didn't, it's chilly. Dumfries was | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
the home of Robbie Burns in the final years of his life and it is | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
where the SNP cleaned up at the last general election. Relegating Labour | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
into third. It's now the Tories who have got it in their sights. It's | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
also a place that rather convincingly voted no in the | :43:31. | :43:32. | |
Scottish independence referendum so we have been asking voters whether | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
they think that issue of Scottish independence will be a crucial issue | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
to them in the coming general election. | :43:39. | :43:39. | |
Yes, or no? MUSIC: I Get Around | :43:40. | :43:41. | |
by The Beach Boys. # Round round get around, | :43:42. | :43:43. | |
I get around # Yeah, get around round round I get | :43:44. | :43:45. | |
around, ooh-ooh #. Certain things, school, education, | :43:46. | :43:47. | |
NHS, things like that. I'm a staunch campaigner | :43:48. | :44:01. | |
for the union so definitely I'll be voting Conservative to remain | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
as part of that. Because I'm voting independence, | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
I've always voted yes and if the election included | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
a question for yes or no about independence, | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
I would vote that way. No, it's not about | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
independence for me. It's about who would be best | :44:26. | :44:27. | |
running this country. I'm a believer in Scottish | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
independence all my life, I'm not going to vote for anything | :44:34. | :44:35. | |
else but SNP. The issue of independence | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
will influence the way you vote? I don't think anyone | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
in Scotland should either. # And we've never missed yet | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
with the girls we meet # None of the guys go steady cos it | :44:48. | :44:54. | |
wouldn't be right # To leave their best girl home now on Saturday | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
night # I get around, get around round | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
round I get around #. Nicola Sturgeon is just | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
hellbent on independence. So you want to vote to make sure | :45:05. | :45:27. | |
she can't have that? What's most important issue | :45:28. | :45:29. | |
at this election for you? In this election for me | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
it would be Brexit. So Scottish independence, is it | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
the burning issue at this election? Well, I think this might be | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
a first in Moodbox history. A verified dead heat between those | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
who think that Scottish independence is the most crucial issue for them | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
at this election Thank you, Dumfries Galloway, | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
and thank you, Robbie Burns. Joining us now from Aberdeen | :45:55. | :46:03. | |
is Callum McCaig from the SNP. And Michael Forsyth, | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
the former Scotland Secretary, Welcome to the Daily Politics. Is | :46:09. | :46:18. | |
their selection for you primarily about a second independence | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
referendum, yes or no? I think this election is about who is the best | :46:23. | :46:25. | |
people to represent Scotland in Westminster and we have the choice, | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
the battle ground has been drawn between the Tories and SNP and it's | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
a battle I am confident about. I have been speaking to many voters | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
and I ask people what is important to them and to some people | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
independence is important but the vast majority, it's not, it's about | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
who's the best place in Westminster question of why suddenly a change of | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
heart? It's no longer a priority in an election campaign. I think we've | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
done that service are quite irony in terms of the Tories fought both the | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
last Scottish Parliament elections, the council elections and saying no | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
to it. I'm of the belief the Scottish Parliament should be the | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
place to decide whether Scotland has another independence referendum. It | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
is decided. It is the clear vote on a Scottish Parliament that there | :47:15. | :47:16. | |
should be another referendum once the terms of Brexit are known. | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
Nobody is running away from independent but there are other | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
issues around what type of Brexit we are going to have, what the state | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
pension is going to be and people in Scotland are not daft. It's just | :47:29. | :47:35. | |
interesting that the SNP in all the years I've interviewed them are | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
reluctant to talk about independence now. I wonder if you are playing | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
down the issue in this election because the issue of independence, | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
the UK has voted to leave the EU, has not shifted the balance towards | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
Scottish independence in the way you had hoped for? No, I disagree. But | :47:56. | :48:02. | |
it hasn't shifted, has it? The SNP has said the only way Scotland will | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
become an independent country is if people vote for it in a referendum. | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
That's how we decide. That referendum has been voted for by the | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
Scottish Parliament and therefore it should happen. That's democracy for | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
them when we're talking about other issues in an election and we are not | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
an independent country yet, so the issues are about how we are governed | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
whilst we are part of the UK, it's important, so we are not a one trick | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
pony. We believe independence is the correct future for Scotland but | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
whilst we are not independent, we have to shape the way the UK is to | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
the benefit of Scotland. If other parties don't want to do that, they | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
have to accept that. Do you accept the dial has not moved towards | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
independence since the Brexit about? There's been a significant change in | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
how these things happen. People who voted yes, who would now vote no. | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
But has the dial shifted dramatically? Not really but with | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
not a campaign on independence and referendum campaign is where we | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
would shift that. If we started in 2012 when it was announced, it went | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
from 30% up to 45%. In this election, not just speaking to yes | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
voters but everyone. I'm not going to write off anybody because how | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
they voted in 2014 or 2015. I'm confident we can gauge with people | :49:23. | :49:24. | |
on the issues of this general election. When it comes to the | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
referendum we will engage on the issues of referendum. Just finally, | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
on Brexit, you obviously against it, and your request for Scotland to | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
stay in the single market have been written off by the Government as | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
unworkable. So how will the SNP actually be able to achieve giving | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
Scotland a place at the top table during Brexit negotiations? I think | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
that battle has not entirely been lost. We have an election that could | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
shape what happens I'm not going to take advantage how people vote in | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
the UK. I would assume the Government will stay as it is, that | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
would be unfair in terms of the electoral process. Let's try to | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
shape the attitudes in Scotland and elsewhere through the debate which | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
suggests" operation with our friends and neighbours in Europe is a good | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
thing. Not just for Scotland but for the UK as a whole. Let's get the | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
softest Brexit and make sure Scottish industries are given | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
priority. Island gas in Aberdeen is very important to the local economy. | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
It was a low priority in terms of the Tories are Brexit talks but I | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
would like to be high priority. It would cost 500 million quid to the | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
industry. Michael, looking at recent polling, I electoral calculus, it | :50:46. | :50:48. | |
indicates the Tories could take ten seats from the SNP coming from a | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
very low base as you know. But this would be an improvement. Is there | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
evidence to show Scottish voters are suddenly become Conservative again? | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
Isn't it really just about Brexit and therefore it could be short-term | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
lived if this surge turns out to be true? I think what has happened is a | :51:06. | :51:12. | |
lot of tactical voting in Scotland, four party system. When we lost our | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
seeds in 1997, we had 17.5% of the vote and the Liberals got ten seats. | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
People vote tactically for the a lot of Tories have voted in the | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
north-east tactically for the SNP to stop Labour. It is now completely | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
clear there's not going to be a Labour Government and people are | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
very, very upset by the SNP's campaign to refuse to accept the | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
result of a Scottish referendum and to imply that those people who voted | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
Brexit are somehow in favour of independence. You're picking up | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
those votes but has not been a wholesale conversion to a | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
Conservative loss. You've just been to Dumfries Galloway. On the local | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
election results, we would have won that seat. If you look at the local | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
election results where I live, the SNP council long-standing has been | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
replaced by a Tory one. There is a swing because people resent the fact | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
that they are being told we have to have another referendum and one of | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
the ironies of this election campaign is the two parties, the SNP | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
and liberals, who want more referendums, are the ones who don't | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
accept the results of. Let's look at some of the issues. You don't want | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
to be a one trick pony in the SNP so let's look at education. Scottish | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
Government statistics. They are pretty damning after a decade of SNP | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
rule, fewer than half of 13 and 14-year-olds in Scotland are able to | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
write properly. With a proportion of those functionally illiterate more | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
than doubling for the battered dreadful legacy. I think you can | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
pick statistics. Some are not good. You have not picked the ones which | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
say... Which ones say numerous the and literacy have improved under the | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
SNP? You can pick some would say things are not great and some things | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
which are improving and you have picked some statistics and you have | :53:05. | :53:11. | |
denied that. People are passing higher exams in record numbers, we | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
have the lowest youth unemployment in the UK, so there are some things | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
that need to be improved, nobody is denying that, but to suggest that | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
somehow the education system is failing an entire generation of | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
people in Scotland is incorrect. Just tell me on literacy and | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
numerous E, can you give me some positive numbers? To be clear, I'm | :53:35. | :53:37. | |
not denying those figures but I'm suggesting, if you look at certain | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
figures in isolation, and ignore other figures would suggest things | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
are not quite as bad as the picture you like to paint, then things, when | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
you look them in the round are not as bad. Does the SNP accept there | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
are issues which need to be addressed with education? Yes, and | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
that's why we are increasing money going into schools to close the gap | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
and yes, we are aware of these issues and addressing them. That's | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
not just look at certain things in isolation without accepting the | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
bigger picture which is not as dark as the picture you are painting. | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
Thank you very much for joining us. The Washington post is reporting | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
President Putin is ready to hand over records of President Trump's | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
talks with the Russian Foreign Minister to US lawmakers if the | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
White House approves. And they will show he did not hand over any secret | :54:28. | :54:35. | |
intelligence, says the Kremlin. Curiouser and curiouser. Shutting | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
down the story well, isn't it? No way this story will shut down. | :54:40. | :54:41. | |
Now, in the run up to the general election we've been taking a look | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
at some of the smaller parties hoping to win seats. | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
Today it's the turn of the Alliance for Green Socialism | :54:48. | :54:49. | |
and they are putting up three candidates. | :54:50. | :54:51. | |
The Alliance for Green Socialism was founded in 2003. | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
It wants to get rid of capitalism in favour of the environment. | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
It doesn't have a Twitter account and, as one of the smallest parties, | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
Its policies include putting a stop to global warming | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
with investment in renewable energy and sustainable infrastructure. | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
It wants to abandon what it calls endless economic growth. | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
And it seeks public ownership of utilities, big business | :55:15. | :55:17. | |
The Alliance for Green Socialism also wants to abolish the monarchy | :55:18. | :55:31. | |
and put an elected presidency in its place. | :55:32. | :55:33. | |
And the leader Mike Davies joins me now. | :55:34. | :55:35. | |
Welcome to the programme. Thanks for the invite. You have three | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
candidates. What are you hoping to achieve? We want to make our | :55:42. | :55:48. | |
policies and our views clear to as many people as possible. And since | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
those policies are not being put forward by any of the larger | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
parties, we are putting forward. What's the difference between the | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
Alliance for Green Socialism and the Green party? In the British | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
political spectrum, the Green party is to the left. That's a very | :56:07. | :56:17. | |
dubious statement. Really? The Green party, firstly, doesn't understand | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
the relationship between capitalism and environmental problems like | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
global warming. The Green party's attitude, and I'm quoting Caroline | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
Lucas, an archetypal supposedly left Green party member, she will sort | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
out the environment and then think about capitalism. They don't realise | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
you can't sort out the environment without thinking about capitalism at | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
the same time. You sound, if I may say so, a bit like the People's | :56:46. | :56:54. | |
Judaean front. You did use that analogy two years ago. Isn't that | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
the reason why you never make that much progress, because you're so | :57:00. | :57:01. | |
bitty differentiating yourself from each other, but on a number of | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
things you are on a broad agreement, so what you achieve more by being | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
together? Are you talking about the Labour Party or the Green party? | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
Both, actually. If you look at the Labour Party, basically it has no | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
interest in the environment. If you listen to Jeremy Corbyn speech, he | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
won't say a word about the environment. If you look at the | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
Labour Party manifesto, nothing in Jeremy's forward about the | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
environment. It has got 12 headings, none of which concern the | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
environment for the PS, if you dig down deep to word number 573 you | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
will find a dozen words on it, but basically they don't care and the | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
Green party, as I say, they don't appreciate that you cannot solve the | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
environmental problems, particularly global warming, when you've got an | :57:54. | :57:56. | |
economic system which pursues endless growth and immediate profit. | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
All right. How well do you think are going to do? I think we will come | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
close to form an excrement. LAUGHTER | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
On that realistic note... I want the first interview. Done. | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
The question was which book series did Theresa May reveal she was a fan | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
So, Michael, what's the correct answer? | :58:22. | :58:29. | |
Harry to is the correct answer. Thank you very much. | :58:30. | :58:31. | |
TEACHER: And I know you like reading those books. | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
She has read all of them. She's thinking, is there a trap? | :58:36. | :58:47. | |
The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now. | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big | :58:51. | :58:53. |