18/05/2017 Daily Politics


18/05/2017

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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May unveils her party's manifesto with a promise that it

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will "confront the great challenges of our time".

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Will the "ordinary working families" she's hoping to appeal to agree?

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There are big changes to the way social care is funded in England

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with more people paying for their own care.

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How will the proposals go down with older voters?

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As the party recommits, again, to reducing net migration

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to the "tens of thousands", will making immigration more

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expensive for companies and individuals help Theresa May

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And in the thick of the election campaign, is it life imitating art?

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And much with 10,000 police officers cost? We believe about ?300,000.

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10,000 police officers, what are you saying?

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All that in the next hour of this Daily Politics election special.

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And with us for the duration today is the satirist and creator

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of 'The Thick Of It', Armando Iannucci.

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So in the last few minutes the Conservative manifesto has been

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published with Theresa May launching it at an event in Halifax

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She said it was a manifesto that would confront the "big,

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difficult decisions that are right for our country in the long term".

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We're still digesting the document of course,

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There are big changes in how social care is funded in England.

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Currently, anyone with assets - including their home -

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of over ?23,250 has to pay the costs of residential care themselves.

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Under the Conservatives' plans, that threshold will increase to ?100,000.

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But the value of your home will now also be included when assessing

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the eligibility for helping paying for care provided in the home.

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Under Conservative plans, these people will also have to pay

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for that care if they have assets - including their home -

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Property will not have to be sold during their lifetime to fund care,

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but can be recouped from the value of their estate when they die.

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The winter fuel allowance for pensioners, which is a one-off

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payment of between ?100-300 a person, will become means-tested.

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And the pensions triple lock, which guarantees that state pensions

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rise each year by whichever is the highest out of the consumer

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price index, average earnings, or 2.5%, has also been axed.

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It will become a double lock in 2020, matching either inflation or

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average earnings. On immigration, businesses will face

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a doubling of the skills charge from ?1,000 to ?2,000 for every

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non-EU migrant they employ Non-EU migrants will also have

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to pay more to use the NHS, and students will remain

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in the immigration statistics. Elsewhere, free school lunches

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for all infants will be axed, and replaced with free breakfasts

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for all primary school children. And the promise not to increase

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income tax, national insurance Let's hear what Theresa May had to

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say launching the manifesto in Halifax. It offers a vision for

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Britain not just for the next five years but for the years and decades

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ahead. A stronger Britain where everyone has the economic security

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they need and the chance to live a secure and full life. A more

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prosperous Britain where each generation can do wetter than the

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last. -- can do better. All of this depends on getting the next five

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years right. Make no mistake, the central challenge we face is

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negotiating the best deal for Britain in Europe. Our future

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prosperity, our place in the world, our standard of living, the

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opportunities we want for our children and their children, each

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and every one depends on having the strongest possible hand as we enter

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those negotiations in order to get the best Brexit deal for families

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across this country. If we fail the consequences for Britain and for the

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economic security of ordinary working people will be dire. If we

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succeed, the opportunities ahead of us are great. Theresa May this

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morning launching the Tory manifesto.

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Let's talk to our correspondent, Norman Smith, who's been watching

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What is jumping out at you? The sense that we are seeing today are

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clear and marked change from the Cameron years. This is a very

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different Conservative vision and a very different party under Theresa

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May, not just in the sense that key, emblematic elements of the Cameron

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years are being jumped like the tax lock and pension lock, free school

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meals for everyone regardless of income, ending winter fuel allowance

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is except for the poorest pensioners, abandoning the idea of

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the social care cap, not just because she is junking all that but

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the direction of travel. Theresa May is pitching this manifesto at

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ordinarily families, at people on lower incomes, and that is a change

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from Mr Cameron's focus which was, by and large, on Middle England, the

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middle classes, on protecting pensioners. That has gone and has

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been put to one side particular with pensioners with Mrs May stressing

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the need for intergenerational fairness. White should younger

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taxpayers had to pick up the tab for older people to pay for care costs?

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Again and again so many if the changes she is introducing, you look

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at the field of employment rights, changes to working conditions, to

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your right to ask for leave, changes which the TUC described as

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promising, these are reforms designed to help people, yes you

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have a job and a family and who maybe have a house, but by no

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stretch of the imagination are they comfortable Alstead and that is an

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entirely different pitch for the Tory party. I'm struck how many

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times over the years we have talked about blue conservatism, blue-collar

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conservatism but genuinely I think Theresa May has picked that up and

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that is what she is trying to deliver with this package, and to

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turn her back on that slightly more aspirational approach of David

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Cameron. I don't think she is appealing so much to the

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aspirational classes, she is appealing to those who are just

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getting by and would like to be a bit more certain about their

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prospects and their community and future. It is a very different

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constituency. And the politics of that as we have been watching some

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pictures of Mrs May at the press conference, let's assume she think

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it is the right thing to do anyway but politically it helps her to

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appeal to seats in the Midlands and the North of England which the

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Tories have not had much success in for perhaps the generation. I think

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that it absolutely true, there is the obvious tactical move to claw

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back Labour voters who she believes frankly have given up on Jeremy

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Corbyn. She wants to get them, but it is more than that. I think she

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takes the view and the lesson she learned from Brexit was not just

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people wanted out of the European Union but she believes Brexit was

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also at how all of rage and impotence from ordinarily families

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who felt that their views and values were ignored -- a how all -- howl.

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She has taken that lesson and is refashioning the approach of the

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Tory party to address that constituency and it is a fundamental

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repositioning of the Tory party and there will be losers. The losers are

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people who are pretty much routinely decide on the dotted line for the

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Tories, pensioners in particular are big-time losers. Business, again

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traditionally straight down the line Tories, they lose as well not just

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with the raft of new employment measures, red tape and regulation

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but new taxes and charges on bringing in labour from abroad.

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Business will say, hang on, we are trying to grow business and the

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economy, there is a labour shortage in the country and we have to bring

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people in. Theresa May is saying that is all

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very well but people are concerned about immigration and she is

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prioritising the Brexit community who are worried about the changing

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landscape in Britain and the changing communities which they put

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down to large-scale immigration and that, in her mind, comes up for

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traditional Tory focus on encouraging business and a

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pro-business environment. It is more than just a tactical pitch to take

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back Labour voters, it is the lessons of Brexit and the

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refashioning of what the Tories stand for and who they represent, at

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least that is her view. I keep very much, we will let you go back in and

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ask a question! Norman Smith in Anna Firth -- in Halifax.

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We're joined now the former Justice Minister, Dominic Raab.

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It is a watershed in a different kind of conservatism from Mr

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Cameron's version and that chip -- and Mrs Thatcher's? I was struck, I

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felt it was a much more optimistic and vicious perspective than Babs

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Norman characterised about taking Britain forward but she is certainly

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making it clear that there are difficult challenges ahead and we

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are saying that the demo -- or the Conservatives have a plan and in

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Theresa May the leader to deliver Brexit and make it work for the

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country but also deal with the flawed market and makes the cost of

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living for lower and middle income families is addressed and critically

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dealing with some of the burning social issues which have been

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something of a car before too long. Let's look at social care, it is

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quite complicated, what is the reasoning? We want to put social

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care on a sustainable footing. There are difficult decisions to make like

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means testing the winter fuel allowance so that only those who

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have more money are not playing, it is focused on the less well off

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pensioners, but that allows us to fund sustainable social care and

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protect up to ?100,000, the assets of those receiving social care and

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the message to finish, is that we want to do the socially responsible

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thing for our elderly citizens but without engaging in something which

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is reckless for the public finances and that is the prospectus. The cost

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is there are a huge number of people who will have their social care

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costs increasing. The principle is that if you can afford to pay,

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whether from your income or your assets, you should contribute. The

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flip side otherwise is that it all in the state and it is the taxpayers

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underpinning it. It is a question about balance. So many people have

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ducked this. I'm not suggesting people aren't going to come out and

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say there are winners and losers and Norman made that point but we are

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grappling with this issue and putting on a sustainable footing and

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maybe others offering a credible plan for addressing social care.

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They will have to play more -- pay more, a number of people, and at the

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same time you are abolishing the lifetime cap on how much people will

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contribute to social care. They will be paying even more ad that will be

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the chronically ill, the most vulnerable, you are taking away the

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lifetime cap as well. The key thing is that for the vulnerable and those

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on the lowest incomes, we will make sure that the Social Security

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cushion if you like is always there. It is those who are more affluent

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with assets and income who will be asked to contribute a bit more. Many

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poor people will have a property that is worth more than 100,000. Of

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course, I know that will be an issue. So the cap on them is going,

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their costs will go up as well. If that really fair, the sensible way

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with social care already being quite expensive, to take away the cap and

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make more people pay more? Where is the progress? The progress is that

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social care will be on a sustainable footing. For the government but not

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the people who have to pay. People recognised with an ageing population

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and the costs that go with it, the Kings fund have done reports on

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this, there is a critical balance between your ability to contribute

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to your own care costs and asking the taxpayers to foot the bill. You

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can strike the balance of different way but nobody else has come up with

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a credible plan to put that on a sustainable footing and that is why

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I think a lot of pensioners will look at this and think that at least

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this is not sustainable. With the extra money going into the NHS we

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are dealing with some of these burning social issues. I will come

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onto the extra money in a moment, but you're going to make the elderly

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pay more for the social care, at least a large number, you are

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abandoning the pensions triple lock which is now a double lock, and your

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ticket awaits fuel allowances for all but the poorest I would guess

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but we don't know what the means test is. Anything else you would

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like to hit pensioners with? That is a hat-trick, do you want to go for a

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fourth? You pick up the negatives, that is your job but we have

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predictably acid of those benefiting from social get up to ?100,000 and

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the triple lock is turning into a double lock and we have said that

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until 2020 we will protect the triple lock because the state

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pension has been so dumbed down under Labour and after that it will

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store protected and increase. But in line with prices and wages. What

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that does is it puts the state pension, it put social get on a

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sustainable footing. Theresa May has said it is not easy, wouldn't relish

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having to make difficult decisions but no one out as the leadership to

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grapple with this. Let's go to the NHS, huge concern

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that not enough money is being given to the NHS and you see here, you do

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not get to it until page 66 out of 83 pages of manifesto, page 66, we

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will increase NHS spending by a minimum of ?8 billion in real terms

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over the next five years, what does that mean? You have the manifesto,

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we are saying extra investment will go in at a minimum of ?8 billion,

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that is an annual sum. I think people know the Conservatives have

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cut the deficit from 152 billion to 52 billion, I don't think anybody

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thinks we are not careful custodians with the public finances, that is

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what you have just been having a go at me about. I am just seeking

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clarification, is this 8 billion on top of the 8 billion you are

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currently adding into the NHS? I have been on my way to the studio so

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I don't even have the benefits that you have, I have been briefed but it

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was only just released... We nor the NHS is one of the biggest issues of

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the campaign, I have got the spending figures here from the

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Department of Health, in 2014, 2015, the health budget, this is the

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Department of Health so I assume it is just England, maybe Wales. It is

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your table. It is your government 's table. You fished it out. But that

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does not mean I own it. Stop filibustering let's get to the fax.

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A billion for the NHS in 2014-15 is what you inherited, on the

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projections we have at the moment it rises to 126.5 by 2021, that is the

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8 billion the previous government promised, it rises by a little bit

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every year to get to the extra 8 billion, is this 8 billion the same

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or is it on top of that 8 billion? Since that is your table and you

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have read the manifesto but I was on the way here so could not I cannot

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answer that. There is additional money going into the NHS. We do not

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know that. It's interesting that you choose the figure of 8 billion as it

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muddies the waters. In fairness if you invite me on the shore when

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Theresa May is on her feet and now they hope the manifesto very tightly

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you cannot expect me to have read it. Are you not briefed? Are you not

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in the loop? Are you not in the thick of it? Evidently not as in the

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loop as you are. I am not in the loop, I don't know what your party

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is talking about. It was your party... A 126.5 billion is the

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current planned spending by 2021, does this 8 billion mean that by

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2021 it will be 134 billion? As with the previous question you know I

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don't have that chart for the manifesto. But the headline is 8

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billion of new investment going into the NHS. Then it would be 134

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billion. We are investing more in the NHS, and reforming it with a

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greater focus on mental health and the seven-day NHS. Careful

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custodians of the public finances but we won't let people slept

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through the cracks who need our support. It's the figures that

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matter. I understand that. If we could have this conversation two

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hours later I would be able to answer that. On immigration why do

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you keep on making a promise you can never keep. We are doubling down on

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our commitment to reduce the volume of immigration to tens of thousands,

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Brexit lets us get control in areas with EU immigration we have not had

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before. What we have set out in the manifesto amongst other things is an

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increase in the charge on skills so when employers take in from outside

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of the EU foreign workers, actually there is a ?2000 charge the pay and

:20:29.:20:32.

the balance we are trying to strike is we want employees to be able to

:20:33.:20:36.

plug the skills gap in the economy but not be able to just bring in

:20:37.:20:40.

cheap Labour that undercuts the wages of skilled and non-skilled

:20:41.:20:47.

workers. The target you sent in the 2010 election then the 2015 election

:20:48.:20:53.

and now again is to get met immigration down below 100000 and

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you say Brexit will get it easier to do that but you have always had

:20:58.:21:02.

control non-EU migration, how much is that at the moment? If you look,

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it ebbs and flows but it is broadly 50-50. Even that part of migration

:21:08.:21:16.

that you have absolute control over you have not been able to get down

:21:17.:21:21.

to the tens of thousands but you keep on making these promises...

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First of all it's not quite true because the EU rules due to some

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extent do apply to non-EU nationals because of our rules on

:21:32.:21:33.

discrimination but you are basically right and we make no bones about

:21:34.:21:39.

this. We still have to get control of immigration. Brexit presents an

:21:40.:21:42.

opportunity but there are other issues we will have to address in

:21:43.:21:54.

relation to non-EU migration and what the skills charge exemplifies

:21:55.:21:57.

is that yes we need to plug the gaps but we will not have the skill and

:21:58.:22:00.

volume of immigration that put a strain on housing and public

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services and undercuts skilled and low skilled Labour in this country

:22:03.:22:05.

and their wages. Armando what do you make of all this? This is a big

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risk, people will be talking for a long time about her assault on the

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elderly if you want to dramatise it because they tend to vote Tory. I

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think what she has decided is that it is a risk worth taking was Gene

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makes moves not just into the left to pinch some of Ed Miliband 's

:22:27.:22:29.

policies about energy caps but to the right to hoover up the Ukip

:22:30.:22:35.

vote. Tough language on immigration that you picked up on, I find it's

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almost like being in a dream, you know in a dream you are looking at

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one person and they turn into somebody else and they don't bat an

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eyelid, sometimes she's a bit Ed Miliband, sometimes she is Nigel

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Farage and at other times she is Margaret Thatcher and I find it

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fascinating. I think it shows she is taking this large percentage of

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voters for granted. She has voted they will not vote for -- she has

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assumed they will not vote for Jeremy Corbyn. Yes, so she is making

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a loader play for the Brexit, blue-collar vote. I think there are

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a quite a few of the elderly voters who want to see things on a stable

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footing, a lot of pensioners have got children and grandchildren and

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recognise the challenges they face and dealing with that key issue of

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our generation, intergenerational fairness, is close to her heart.

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There is one thing that is missing from this manifesto, quite a major

:23:44.:23:49.

omission. I would like you to tell me why, why is there are no apology

:23:50.:23:55.

to Ed Miliband for all the ideas you disparaged that you have now

:23:56.:24:00.

included of his in this Tory manifesto? App will I don't think we

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are in the business of apologising. You pinched his ideas after calling

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them Marxist. Energy Capcom are more money for the NHS. First of all,

:24:12.:24:17.

more money for the NHS was a promise we made and Labour did not match. Ed

:24:18.:24:22.

Miliband proposed an energy freeze, not a cap and the difference is

:24:23.:24:28.

energy companies would hike prices which would legalise consumers, are

:24:29.:24:34.

is a cap, you can still have competition underneath it but we

:24:35.:24:42.

will stop the rip-off of consumers. Tougher rules on takeover? I

:24:43.:24:51.

remember Ed Miliband proposing that. Top rules on corporate pay. Quite a

:24:52.:24:57.

lot. Theresa May and the Conservatives have been talking

:24:58.:25:01.

about shareholders exercising more pay -- control over corporate paper

:25:02.:25:08.

quite some time. What you are showing is that Theresa May is

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reaching out to aspirational working and middle class voters and we think

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she has the plan and leadership to deliver. Thank you very much Dominic

:25:16.:25:21.

Ryan. Let's stick with the manifesto.

:25:22.:25:23.

Let's talk to the Spectator's Fraser Nelson and the Guardian

:25:24.:25:25.

Polly what do you make of it? She is doing what they always do, heading

:25:26.:25:36.

for the middle ground, Labour turf, very much like David Cameron dead,

:25:37.:25:45.

do you remember the foodie hugging, big society, time off for

:25:46.:25:48.

volunteering, soft and cuddly and all of the rest of it, she's doing

:25:49.:25:54.

it in a different tone but the same tactic. What we want is to see it

:25:55.:25:59.

delivered and the hard policies are very few suggesting her heading in

:26:00.:26:06.

that direction. And Fraser what is your headline take? People wondered

:26:07.:26:13.

what happened to the editor after the last general election and now we

:26:14.:26:17.

know it has been reincarnated as this manifesto. There is the

:26:18.:26:24.

anti-corporate, being portrayed as asset strippers and new rules, quite

:26:25.:26:31.

significant new rules allowing the Prime Minister to stop takeovers and

:26:32.:26:34.

significantly she has given herself until the middle of the next decade

:26:35.:26:38.

to balance the books. George Osborne said it would be 2015 and now she is

:26:39.:26:44.

seeing 2025, that means Britain will go through something like a quarter

:26:45.:26:48.

century without having got rid of the deficit. So fiscally I think we

:26:49.:26:52.

can see lots more spending and not too many worries about how it will

:26:53.:26:58.

be paid for. Is the politics of this, although she was a remain, she

:26:59.:27:08.

listened to why people voted for Brexit the Midlands, the North,

:27:09.:27:14.

traditional Labour voters, and she wants to move into that territory,

:27:15.:27:17.

take back seats the Tories have not had in the North, elements of a

:27:18.:27:26.

blue-collar conservatives, will that politically, does it help the Tories

:27:27.:27:32.

to win seats they probably have not had for a generation? I think it

:27:33.:27:37.

does, hard Brexit and was very Brexit seats, she is suggesting a

:27:38.:27:41.

frighteningly hard Brexit, no deal is better than a bad deal terrifies

:27:42.:27:46.

the city and most conservative backers. Also a lot of it, Labour

:27:47.:27:51.

have been accused of a fantasy manifesto that if you look at her

:27:52.:27:54.

pledge on immigration it's impossible, she can go around the

:27:55.:27:58.

Midlands and tell them she will reduce it to the tens of thousands

:27:59.:28:08.

but she was Home Secretary and could not do it. We have hundred 54,000

:28:09.:28:10.

students alone, you go through each category and none of them will say

:28:11.:28:13.

which category is it that they are going to cut? Which industry will be

:28:14.:28:19.

hit? The NHS, agriculture? She does not say because it cannot be done

:28:20.:28:24.

and would be done but it will get her through the election saying that

:28:25.:28:29.

black is white is black. Have me asking the same questions again and

:28:30.:28:35.

again like Groundhog Day. Fraser, if you think, if the Conservatives

:28:36.:28:40.

think that older voters will not vote for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

:28:41.:28:46.

Party, if you think you are going to win by a landslide, then maybe you

:28:47.:28:52.

can take some risks on policies for old-age pensioners? But is that not

:28:53.:28:59.

still risky? There is still an element of risk in this. Last time I

:29:00.:29:04.

looked she had something like a 50 point lead over older voters and you

:29:05.:29:09.

cannot get more impregnable than that. Previously whether it is

:29:10.:29:12.

Labour or Tory party leaders Bobby had to break the elderly to the

:29:13.:29:19.

election. She has quite rightly got rid of that but what she has not

:29:20.:29:23.

done is repair the cuts made to the working age people. She could have

:29:24.:29:27.

said I am going to restore generational fairness, not to raise

:29:28.:29:31.

by the pension as much and go easier on the tax credit cuts. She's not

:29:32.:29:36.

done that which is something I am sad about but she doesn't think she

:29:37.:29:41.

can break the addiction to bribing the elderly. Polly, finally, there

:29:42.:29:47.

is a new poll in the standard, the daily Osborne as we call it, which

:29:48.:29:53.

does show the gap has narrowed, Labour only 15 points behind, is

:29:54.:29:59.

still some hope for Jeremy Corbyn? Only 15 points, how bad can things

:30:00.:30:06.

be? The gap was bound to narrow it usually does during elections. We

:30:07.:30:09.

will see on the day what it means but I don't think many people

:30:10.:30:14.

seriously think 15 points can suddenly be wiped away, Jeremy

:30:15.:30:19.

Corbyn today has said that the Tories are hitting the older voters

:30:20.:30:24.

and Labour have offered ridiculous bribes to older voters and on this

:30:25.:30:29.

one thing Theresa May is right, to take money from the older richer

:30:30.:30:33.

people in order, rather than taking it from the poor, to pay for their

:30:34.:30:43.

own care. Cross dressing both ways. We are big into cross dressing here

:30:44.:30:46.

so we will end on that note, thank you.

:30:47.:30:51.

There is an interesting think political here, when the left was

:30:52.:30:57.

last factored in the 1980s with the social Democrats leaving the Labour

:30:58.:31:05.

Party, the Thatcher response was to move to the right to put what became

:31:06.:31:09.

known as the Thatcherite reforms and to push them in. Mrs May is facing a

:31:10.:31:15.

fractured left in various ways and her response has been removed to the

:31:16.:31:21.

centre or even centre left. I think it is both ways, right and left. The

:31:22.:31:27.

most successful crossdressing politician in the last 18 months has

:31:28.:31:31.

been Donald Trump, who again with a nominally right-wing party but had

:31:32.:31:40.

said the left wing social views. He caused that amount of confusion

:31:41.:31:43.

within the electorate and the politicos and got in as a result.

:31:44.:31:47.

I'm not suggesting Theresa May is our Donald Trump, but she has

:31:48.:31:50.

learned something from that into making yourself look surprising and

:31:51.:31:56.

distinctive by confounding expectations. Whether that is

:31:57.:32:02.

enough... I think in her head she is actually trying to launch the start

:32:03.:32:05.

of the Conservative Empire. She talked about it being a manifesto

:32:06.:32:10.

for the next five years and decades afterwards and she sees this empty

:32:11.:32:14.

centre with the Lib Dems not making much headway and this right-wing

:32:15.:32:20.

vacated by Ukip and she knows she can hoover up almost 50% of that

:32:21.:32:27.

area from the centre to the right. That is a strategy I think. It is a

:32:28.:32:32.

kind of realignment as well, interesting.

:32:33.:32:34.

Now, we've been wheeling the Daily Politics' balls

:32:35.:32:36.

Ellie's pushed them across the English border to Carlisle

:32:37.:32:39.

Where the sun is shining! We are taking a break from the campaign

:32:40.:32:51.

Trail and the issues specifically affecting the poll on the 8th of

:32:52.:32:55.

June and instead are talking more generally about general elections.

:32:56.:33:00.

And the voting age. We are about ten miles away from Scotland where

:33:01.:33:04.

16-year-olds can vote in certain elections but we are asking if the

:33:05.:33:08.

voting age in general elections across the UK should be reduced to

:33:09.:33:10.

16 or stay at 18. When I was 16 I knew

:33:11.:33:36.

who I wanted to vote for and because all people

:33:37.:33:38.

are going to die. Do you think 16-year-olds

:33:39.:33:40.

should have the vote? When I was 16 I wasn't mature

:33:41.:33:42.

enough to do anything. You're knowledgeable enough

:33:43.:33:48.

at 16 to know what's going on and want to have a say

:33:49.:33:50.

in what's going on around the country and world so I think

:33:51.:33:53.

it's fair to let vote. I have a 12-year-old daughter

:33:54.:33:56.

and I find it hard to imagine that by the age of 16 she will be ready

:33:57.:34:00.

to make a decision like that. I'm from Scotland, so I've

:34:01.:34:03.

worked in the elections, I did the polling clerk there,

:34:04.:34:06.

quite a few times, and a lot of the younger ones are coming

:34:07.:34:09.

in with their parents now so it's encouraging to see younger ones

:34:10.:34:12.

coming in and voting. Were you interested

:34:13.:34:14.

in politics when you were 16? Because I think if they're allowed

:34:15.:34:16.

to do lots of other things when they're 16 why not

:34:17.:34:33.

vote as well? They're eligible to get

:34:34.:34:35.

married, I've just been I think they mature a lot

:34:36.:34:37.

between 16 and 18, a lot. Yes, it's surprising

:34:38.:34:54.

what children do eat. Do you think 16-year-olds

:34:55.:35:11.

should have the vote? We've shopped around for people's

:35:12.:35:13.

opinions here in the market and it would seem that if you are 16

:35:14.:35:21.

going on 17 wanting a say People here think you need to be

:35:22.:35:24.

18 to have the vote. And Armando Iannucci,

:35:25.:35:28.

who is campaigning to get more younger people to vote,

:35:29.:35:37.

is still with us. I was quite encouraged by that

:35:38.:35:45.

actually. You would like to see it at 16? I think it would help. When I

:35:46.:35:51.

heard the Scottish in abundance referendum was open to 16-year-olds

:35:52.:35:54.

I was initially a bit nervous but I thought it had a tremendous impact

:35:55.:35:59.

-- independence referendum. It introduced a whole generation into

:36:00.:36:02.

the political debate and for the first on they felt they were taking

:36:03.:36:05.

part in a conversation that mattered. It introduced them to the

:36:06.:36:10.

whole world politics and political engagement. It was an interesting

:36:11.:36:16.

fact that the proportion of 17-year-olds who voted in the

:36:17.:36:20.

referendum was higher than those in the 18 to 21-year-old bracket. It

:36:21.:36:28.

energised them. Perhaps the Scottish referendum, which energised every

:36:29.:36:32.

part of Scotland and the turnout was amazing, that was the exception that

:36:33.:36:37.

proves the rule. And it was on one issue. Young people are more

:36:38.:36:42.

engaged, not so much in party politics as in single issue

:36:43.:36:47.

politics. That is what I think the party political system is a bit of a

:36:48.:36:51.

turn-off for them. The voting turnout for 18 to 24-year-old in the

:36:52.:36:56.

last 25 years has gone right down, it used to be about 70% and it's now

:36:57.:37:01.

about 45% and by find it worrying because if you don't take part in

:37:02.:37:06.

the first time you are eligible, in the process, it is difficult to

:37:07.:37:08.

encourage you to take part further down the line. The turnout among 16

:37:09.:37:14.

and 17-year-olds, for a general election if they had the vote, it's

:37:15.:37:18.

likely to be pretty low. We don't know, we've never done it before. I

:37:19.:37:25.

think coupled with that it is important we actually introduce

:37:26.:37:29.

children and young adults to politics within schools, I don't

:37:30.:37:34.

mean campaigning, but we get sex education, how to write a CV and

:37:35.:37:38.

apply for jobs, I think it would be useful, if the vote was extended to

:37:39.:37:45.

16, there would be a need to open up class is about politics and how the

:37:46.:37:49.

political system works in the UK. How Parliament works, devolution,

:37:50.:37:54.

local government. Good luck in getting a neutral teaching view on

:37:55.:37:59.

that! The Tories used to blame the 1945 election on the Army

:38:00.:38:02.

information centre! And there is a Tory reluctance. David Cameron was

:38:03.:38:13.

offered the possible the opening up the EU referendum to 16-year-olds

:38:14.:38:16.

and he said no because he thought it might put in an anti-Tory bias. It

:38:17.:38:20.

might have helped him in the referendum! People tend to want

:38:21.:38:24.

these changes because it suits how they would like people to vote. They

:38:25.:38:31.

are saying they were more likely to be pro-independence in Scotland. Do

:38:32.:38:35.

you want this because it would help Labour? No, I'm passionate about

:38:36.:38:43.

politics, I dislike the fact that consistently over the last 25 years

:38:44.:38:48.

overall turnouts have gone down both parties have gained majorities,

:38:49.:38:52.

sometimes quite big majorities on tiny proportions of the population.

:38:53.:38:58.

I think that it stayed and it leads to frustration and anger and that is

:38:59.:39:02.

where things get worrying. We have a political system now where most

:39:03.:39:05.

people who vote will not get the government they voted for and we

:39:06.:39:08.

have to do something about that. What I say to young people, think

:39:09.:39:13.

about yourself. The more young people who vote, the more

:39:14.:39:16.

politicians will listen to them and be aware of them as an important

:39:17.:39:24.

lobby. Until today, the old vote, the 65 and over, that was a powerful

:39:25.:39:28.

lobby. The Grey Panthers they used to call in the United States!

:39:29.:39:30.

Now, throughout the campaign we will be featuring some

:39:31.:39:32.

of the smaller parties fielding candidates at the general election.

:39:33.:39:34.

Today it's one of the parties on the hard left of British politics.

:39:35.:39:39.

The Workers Revolutionary Party is the British section

:39:40.:39:41.

of the International Committee of the Fourth International,

:39:42.:39:44.

but produces several publications, including a daily newspaper.

:39:45.:39:54.

It's campaigning for a Labour government and calls

:39:55.:39:55.

on supporters to vote Labour where the WRP isn't standing.

:39:56.:39:58.

It argues that that would best lead the struggle for the British

:39:59.:40:01.

The party wants an immediate break with the European Union

:40:02.:40:15.

and a Socialist United States of Europe instead.

:40:16.:40:17.

It also calls for an end to "British imperialism"

:40:18.:40:20.

and would redirect defence spending to the public sector.

:40:21.:40:31.

Let's have a word with Frank Sweeney who is representing the party.

:40:32.:40:39.

Welcome to the programme. You have said that if there is not a WR P

:40:40.:40:44.

candidate, vote Labour. Have you done that before? , it is a normal

:40:45.:40:51.

default position? Yes, it is the normal position we dig, we support

:40:52.:40:55.

the struggle of the working class against capitalism and the Labour

:40:56.:40:58.

Party is a working-class party with the origins in the trade unions.

:40:59.:41:03.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that the general Kotze guide

:41:04.:41:08.

analysis was that the Labour Party was a sell-out to the capitalist

:41:09.:41:13.

classes? The leadership has sold out. Because of its political

:41:14.:41:18.

outlook, it is a reformist outlook and if you look at their manifesto

:41:19.:41:22.

is a Fabian conception that the economic crisis as finished. While

:41:23.:41:27.

we agreed with things they put in their manifesto, they can't achieve

:41:28.:41:30.

them without overthrowing capitalism. It is impossible to

:41:31.:41:35.

achieve those demands within a capitalist society, especially under

:41:36.:41:39.

such a crisis building up in the economy as there is. And how many

:41:40.:41:47.

WRP and are you running? Five. Are they spread around? There are four

:41:48.:41:52.

in London and one in Sheffield. Is London fertile territory for you?

:41:53.:41:58.

The whole country is. In the campaigns we have that in those

:41:59.:42:02.

constituencies we have had a fantastic response because while we

:42:03.:42:05.

have come across on high Street and canvassing door-to-door, a lot of

:42:06.:42:09.

people who agree with the Labour Party, they don't believe it will be

:42:10.:42:14.

able to carry through their programme, they agreed with it and

:42:15.:42:17.

hope it can be carried through but don't believe the Labour Party will

:42:18.:42:23.

be able to do it. Isn't Trotsky at the 20th century, has his time not

:42:24.:42:28.

come and gone? No, he is 21st century. Capitalism is 19th century.

:42:29.:42:37.

Seriously... Where is it in retreat? The economy, the economic crisis of

:42:38.:42:41.

ten years ago, they are trying to pretend it has gone. Their solution

:42:42.:42:46.

to a debt crisis, they called it a credit crisis but it was a crisis of

:42:47.:42:52.

debt, was to increase debt through quantitative easing in all the major

:42:53.:42:58.

economies. They have made that debt bubble fantastically bigger,

:42:59.:43:01.

probably 1000 times than in 2008, and it's going to go. As in the

:43:02.:43:06.

trend been, rather than capitalist countries moving to become more like

:43:07.:43:10.

you would like them to be, but the other way round, Marxist countries

:43:11.:43:13.

have become more capitalist thinking of Russia and China. I don't know

:43:14.:43:18.

where you have been living but what has been going on in the last few

:43:19.:43:22.

years in the world? What has happened in France in the last few

:43:23.:43:26.

weeks with the two main capitalist parties, the Republican Party and

:43:27.:43:31.

the Socialist party... They are in huge decline, they elected a

:43:32.:43:36.

neoliberal instead. But he has got nothing. He hasn't got a party, he

:43:37.:43:40.

is relying on the old political parties to give him support. And 4

:43:41.:43:44.

million young people in France refused, they hate Marine Le Pen

:43:45.:43:49.

antifascist movement but they refused to vote for Macron because

:43:50.:43:52.

they don't agree because he is part of the old establishment. But Mrs Le

:43:53.:43:57.

Pen got the largest number of young voters of any party. That's because

:43:58.:44:03.

of the disillusionment with bourgeois politics. One more thing,

:44:04.:44:13.

I'm wondering where the world is going in your direction? Towards

:44:14.:44:19.

revolution. But where? All over the globe, if you look in America, in

:44:20.:44:24.

South America, Africa, Europe, the European Union is disintegrating

:44:25.:44:28.

before our eyes. Frank Sweeney, thank you, don't go yet! Relax. We

:44:29.:44:38.

talked about the Conservative Party manifesto this morning.

:44:39.:44:39.

Here's Emma with our campaign round-up.

:44:40.:44:40.

Scottish Labour has suspended all nine members of the Labour group in

:44:41.:44:48.

Aberdeen for its coalition arrangement on the council with the

:44:49.:44:52.

Conservatives saying this breached party rules. There is currently now

:44:53.:44:57.

no councillors in office in Aberdeen representing Labour. Suspicions have

:44:58.:45:00.

been raised that after the election they may be back in the fold and

:45:01.:45:05.

things may go back to normal. Tweeting inspirational quote is all

:45:06.:45:09.

very well but make sure the person actually said them. Jeremy Corbyn

:45:10.:45:14.

was caught at treating a fake quote attributed to Nye Bevan, the famous

:45:15.:45:18.

are to get the NHS, allotment shed message that the word actually

:45:19.:45:21.

originate from a 90s television play. Boris Johnson said sorry after

:45:22.:45:31.

a remark in a campaign visit to seek gurdwara in Bristol, saying that a

:45:32.:45:34.

future Conservative government would end tariffs on India's input of

:45:35.:45:40.

British whiskey. Alcohol is an issue. Let me... The woman said it

:45:41.:45:49.

was a credit to promote alcohol inside their place of worship. Mr

:45:50.:45:52.

Johnson apologised but said he was making a good point about trade. A

:45:53.:45:58.

Ukip candid in Derby has described his own party's immigration policy

:45:59.:46:03.

as stupid as in -- and impractical. I'm a great fan of Indian food,

:46:04.:46:08.

where would we be without the band with a chic chefs? Speaking to BBC

:46:09.:46:13.

radio, Bill Piper undersized Paul Nuttall's aim of cutting net

:46:14.:46:17.

migration to zero with a one in, one out policy -- criticised. George

:46:18.:46:22.

Osborne's Evening Standard criticised Theresa May for the aim

:46:23.:46:25.

of reducing net migration to the tens of thousands a year, calling it

:46:26.:46:26.

literally crash and Broken down battle bus spotted last

:46:27.:46:37.

night with engine trouble. And who is this calling the shots? Former

:46:38.:46:44.

Labour leader Ed Miliband stepping in as a bingo caller to entertain

:46:45.:46:48.

pensioners. Some said he found his true calling.

:46:49.:46:57.

Let's get back to our main story now, that's the launch

:46:58.:47:00.

There are some big changes to the funding

:47:01.:47:03.

There are also changes to the party's commitments

:47:04.:47:07.

of taxation as well as the promise of more money for the NHS.

:47:08.:47:10.

Well, I'm joined now by Paul Johnson of the Institute

:47:11.:47:12.

Talking to Dominic Crabb earlier but he had not been fully briefed on the

:47:13.:47:22.

situation, there is at the moment an extra 8 billion going into the NHS

:47:23.:47:29.

over five years, or actually six from 2014-15 to 2020-21, going from

:47:30.:47:38.

118 billion to 126 billion, is the 8 billion they talk about on page 66,

:47:39.:47:45.

is that on top of this? My understanding is that compared with

:47:46.:47:48.

two day what the Conservatives are saying is there will be an 8 billion

:47:49.:47:54.

real increase in funding in five years' time. Most of that on top of

:47:55.:47:59.

the current 8 billion. Most of that has come through but not all of it.

:48:00.:48:02.

The most interesting thing about these numbers is that it looks like

:48:03.:48:07.

Labour and the Conservatives are on the same page, if you look at their

:48:08.:48:12.

manifestos in term of NHS spending commitments five years down the road

:48:13.:48:15.

they have presented them in different terms but they look

:48:16.:48:21.

similar. There is not much to choose between them. That is interesting

:48:22.:48:26.

because that must be calculated, how they are bonded we do not know and

:48:27.:48:30.

we have asked Labour are a lot of questions how they will fund it so

:48:31.:48:33.

the Tory would have do explain as well, but if they are able to fund

:48:34.:48:38.

it and it will now be 8 billion on top of 126 billion... I take it as

:48:39.:48:45.

an top of whatever we are spending now. Now we are spending almost 124,

:48:46.:48:55.

so up to 132. That would to some extent take the wind out of Labour's

:48:56.:48:59.

sales on NHS spending if this is accurate. The Labour promises on the

:49:00.:49:07.

NHS were very modest. We have had an incredibly tight seven years for NHS

:49:08.:49:11.

spending and if you take these numbers or the Labour Party numbers

:49:12.:49:15.

we are looking at an increase over the next five years which up this

:49:16.:49:19.

tight period is much tighter than the NHS has had over the last 40 or

:49:20.:49:25.

50 years on average. The difference between the two is you could not put

:49:26.:49:31.

much between them. Social care is very complicated, what you make of

:49:32.:49:36.

the changes proposed? It is pretty complex and we need to compare what

:49:37.:49:40.

they are proposing with the world we are in and their own legislation

:49:41.:49:45.

from a couple of years ago which was going to change things more

:49:46.:49:51.

substantially. Where we are, this is going to be helpful to people going

:49:52.:49:57.

into residential care because they will not lose everything down to

:49:58.:50:01.

23,000, they will lose everything down to 100,000, that will leave

:50:02.:50:05.

people with something behind but for some people who are having council

:50:06.:50:08.

paid care in their home at the moment they will have to start

:50:09.:50:13.

paying for that but importantly the payment comes from the estate, not

:50:14.:50:20.

upfront. Saw the taxpayer through the local council continues to pay

:50:21.:50:25.

and then gets refunded after the person has died? That is my

:50:26.:50:32.

understanding. You are racking up an account against the value of your

:50:33.:50:35.

house and if you don't have a house you get the social care anyway. That

:50:36.:50:41.

is my understanding of how it works, the people who pay in the end are

:50:42.:50:48.

the people who will inherit less otherwise than they would have done.

:50:49.:50:55.

My understanding from the Labour manifesto was the simply talked

:50:56.:50:57.

about the amount of extra money they would spend on social care. I did

:50:58.:51:04.

not look at it in detail but I did not understand them to have

:51:05.:51:07.

significantly changed the structure of social care. Would this be a risk

:51:08.:51:14.

with the elderly vote which is pretty solidly Tory? One, it always

:51:15.:51:20.

turns out, the way younger people don't quite, and it does skew

:51:21.:51:27.

strongly Tory, if it's complicated, it may be hard to explain what you

:51:28.:51:33.

have in store. I think it might be difficult to explain, there are some

:51:34.:51:38.

trade-offs here, you see it through the manifesto. The Conservatives are

:51:39.:51:41.

saying we would spend more on social care because we will protect more of

:51:42.:51:47.

the assets of people bound to about 100,000 but they are actually saying

:51:48.:51:53.

we will paper that by reducing the winter fuel allowance. Does that

:51:54.:52:00.

save a lot? Billion and a half. You will still get it? We don't know but

:52:01.:52:06.

I assume those who are still on pension credit, the poor persons.

:52:07.:52:13.

That's my understanding but we don't have the details. But there are

:52:14.:52:16.

choices in each bit in terms of saying we will stop free school

:52:17.:52:22.

meals for 5-6 -year-olds and give free breakfasts to all primary

:52:23.:52:26.

school pupils. So you can see choices made. They are taking away

:52:27.:52:31.

hot meals and it's going to be called breakfasts. Muesli, not baked

:52:32.:52:40.

beans? I am struggling to understand the social care line and the fact

:52:41.:52:45.

you are both experts and trying to get it together I think it will go

:52:46.:52:52.

over very badly. When will we get your analysis of the Tory manifesto

:52:53.:52:58.

tax and spend? We are having an event on Tuesday where we will go

:52:59.:53:03.

through all the manifestos. I will see you there, thank you. Our guest

:53:04.:53:08.

of the day Armando Ianucci is perhaps best known as the creator of

:53:09.:53:13.

the political sire The Thick Of It, but judging by the evidence from the

:53:14.:53:16.

last three weeks of this campaign, it seems it was more fact than

:53:17.:53:22.

fiction. Have you heard the big news about Jeremy Paxman? How much with

:53:23.:53:29.

10,000 police officers cost? We believe about ?300,000. ?300,000,

:53:30.:53:38.

10,000 police officers? If you ask a journalist to avoid the topic that

:53:39.:53:42.

is when they go for it, it's like telling the school bully you will

:53:43.:53:46.

wet yourself if you tickle me. How many people would this give a pay

:53:47.:53:55.

rise to? A couple, I would confess. Any piercings? You have got some

:53:56.:54:04.

piercings. Earrings! I've got pierced ears! You have nurses going

:54:05.:54:09.

to food banks, that must be wrong. There are many complex reasons why

:54:10.:54:14.

people go to food banks. This is Jeremy Paxman, what will you do when

:54:15.:54:20.

he pulls that big rubbery horse face of mock incredulity at you? At the

:54:21.:54:24.

end of parliament it will be lower than it is today. Using what metric?

:54:25.:54:33.

It would be lower in absolute terms, you'll add every year. He is like an

:54:34.:54:39.

enormous check-in. One of the solution packages, my solution...

:54:40.:54:46.

What is the deficit at the moment? If I can say to you... You don't

:54:47.:54:54.

know. What is the deficit at the moment? It sounded like someone was

:54:55.:54:58.

passingly a bit of paper. Not that all. Even though everyone knows they

:54:59.:55:06.

have links with sweatshops? You did not answer when they asked if you

:55:07.:55:11.

thought gay sex was a sin. I have been asked this a lot. Try and get

:55:12.:55:17.

Peter to do something inoffensive. How much is ages to costing. ?32

:55:18.:55:28.

billion. Not 52 billion? You are here to here. I did meet President

:55:29.:55:34.

Assad. You celebrated his re-election. That is what the

:55:35.:55:40.

reception was for, to celebrate his re-election. Why have you got wet

:55:41.:55:46.

trousers? There was no clear manifesto for what happened on our

:55:47.:55:51.

membership to the single market. The Remain campaign said we would leave

:55:52.:55:56.

it if we voted out. I am sorry but we have to leave it there. CHUCKLES

:55:57.:56:05.

That last one is amazing, even that did not happen in the The Thick Of

:56:06.:56:07.

It. I am joined now by John McTernan, is

:56:08.:56:22.

life imitating art? It is to an extent, I worked for Henry McLeish

:56:23.:56:27.

in Scotland and he once stood up in Parliament and said this is not

:56:28.:56:34.

rocket fuel. People have been making mistakes as long as there has been

:56:35.:56:38.

politics. The beauty of the The Thick Of It is that it became right

:56:39.:56:43.

indistinguishable. We did not swear as much but it described the panic

:56:44.:56:48.

and frustration, the politicians in front of camera are the talent and

:56:49.:56:52.

when they are in front of the camera at the advisor can do nothing.

:56:53.:56:57.

Except in the case of the Lib Dems. Even you did not scrap that bit

:56:58.:57:04.

where a politician is hauled out. We would sometimes reject ideas because

:57:05.:57:09.

it was too fantastic. What did you think when you saw the tape, if you

:57:10.:57:15.

wear, if you are not who you are, if you are just an ordinary voter you

:57:16.:57:19.

would not know what was The Thick Of It and what was the interview? Thank

:57:20.:57:24.

you very much. We based on what we see. You can take a tape from ten

:57:25.:57:31.

years ago political interviews and compile something as much a

:57:32.:57:34.

catastrophe as you watch now. In many respects we have a bit of

:57:35.:57:40.

sympathy for the politician in that they are expected to be absolutely

:57:41.:57:44.

coherent and number ready and fact ready at any time of day or night

:57:45.:57:48.

and it's quite an impossible imposition to put on them. In which

:57:49.:57:52.

case it may be better to say I don't know. That's the thing, politicians

:57:53.:57:58.

to scored well with the public are the ones who own up more readily.

:57:59.:58:04.

Also now compare to 20 years ago there are more opportunities to trip

:58:05.:58:10.

up, more news channels, more channels, more political programmes,

:58:11.:58:13.

big interviews used to be few and far between but they are commonplace

:58:14.:58:19.

now. That is true that equally the more interviews the do the more

:58:20.:58:23.

practice you should be getting, political interviews are a genre.

:58:24.:58:26.

Coming on to your show and not knowing the facts is like painting a

:58:27.:58:32.

target on your forehead. You have to actually read the briefing. I have

:58:33.:58:39.

heard the story, people went to Diane Abbott before she did her

:58:40.:58:42.

media rounds and said he is the briefing note and she said I don't

:58:43.:58:46.

need it, I have got the political lines. You have to do your homework.

:58:47.:58:51.

Anderson the interviewer has done their homework. The problem is we

:58:52.:58:57.

are all journalists, it's not just TV interviews any more. Thank you

:58:58.:59:02.

very much John McTernan and Armando Ianucci.

:59:03.:59:05.

The One O'clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:59:06.:59:10.

I'll be on BBC One tonight with Michael Portillo,

:59:11.:59:12.

Ed Balls, James Delingpole, Miranda Green, Nahalie Bennett,

:59:13.:59:16.

Polly McKenzie and the rapper Doc Brown on This Week

:59:17.:59:18.

And Jo will be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories

:59:19.:59:24.

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