22/05/2017 Daily Politics


22/05/2017

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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

In the last half-hour, Theresa May U-turns on social care

:00:41.:00:44.

funding, announcing a big change to her manifesto after political

:00:45.:00:47.

opponents labelled her plan a 'dementia tax'.

:00:48.:00:50.

Labour announces it would scrap university tuition fees for students

:00:51.:00:58.

in England this year if it wins the election.

:00:59.:01:03.

The Green Party launches its manifesto for England and Wales,

:01:04.:01:08.

promising a universal basic income, a four-day working week, and a final

:01:09.:01:11.

And the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon comes under pressure over funding

:01:12.:01:17.

for the NHS in Scotland from a nurse.

:01:18.:01:20.

Come in on the middle of any day, to any ward, any A department.

:01:21.:01:27.

Come on in and see what we're up against.

:01:28.:01:36.

All that in the next hour, and with me for the whole

:01:37.:01:41.

of the programme today, the former Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa

:01:42.:01:43.

Villiers, who was also a leading Conservative campaigner for Brexit

:01:44.:01:45.

And Chuka Umunna, who was a leading light in Ed Miliband's shadow

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cabinet until he joined Labour's backbenches under Jeremy Corbyn.

:01:50.:01:52.

Let's kick off with the continuing fall-out from Theresa May's

:01:53.:01:59.

election manifesto, and in particular her plans

:02:00.:02:01.

for changing the way in which elderly people pay for care

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The Conservative manifesto promised that the state will pay these costs

:02:05.:02:14.

once an individual's assets dip below ?100,000.

:02:15.:02:17.

But the policy has come under fire from political opponents,

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who have variously described the plan as a 'death tax'

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and a 'dementia tax', because old people who need care

:02:24.:02:29.

wouldn't have their overall costs capped.

:02:30.:02:33.

Well, in the last half-an-hour Theresa May has been

:02:34.:02:35.

speaking in North Wales, where she announced her social care

:02:36.:02:37.

plans would now include consulting on a life-time cap on how much

:02:38.:02:40.

individuals would pay for their own care.

:02:41.:02:43.

So I want to make a further point clear.

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This manifesto says that we will come forward

:02:48.:02:52.

with a consultation paper, a Government green paper,

:02:53.:02:54.

and that consultation will include an absolute limit on the amount

:02:55.:02:58.

people have to pay for their care costs.

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So let me reiterate - we are proposing the right funding

:03:01.:03:12.

We will make sure nobody has to sell their family

:03:13.:03:15.

home to pay for care, we'll make sure there is an absolute

:03:16.:03:18.

limit on what people need to pay, and you will never have to go below

:03:19.:03:21.

?100,000 of your savings, so you will always have something

:03:22.:03:24.

She has folded, it took 24 hours for her to perform a miraculous U-turn

:03:25.:03:35.

on one of her key policies on how social care will be funded in the

:03:36.:03:39.

future. The Prime Minister has obviously listened to the concerns

:03:40.:03:43.

people raised and I think the introduction of a cap is a welcome

:03:44.:03:47.

clarification of this set of proposals. We do need to reform the

:03:48.:03:51.

way social care is delivered and funded. The greatest threats to our

:03:52.:03:56.

ability to safeguard people in their old age is actually a weak economy

:03:57.:03:58.

and that is what we would get if we elected

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Jeremy Corbyn of Prime Minister and put him in charge of Brexit

:04:15.:04:16.

negotiations. You call it a clarification, it was not a

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clarification, it was a complete about turn. There was no mention in

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the manifesto, just a couple of days ago, off their being a cap on the

:04:22.:04:24.

cost you could pay if you had over ?100,000, there was just a floor.

:04:25.:04:28.

This is a significant announcement... Was it the wrong

:04:29.:04:33.

policy in the manifesto? I think it proved with the clarification that

:04:34.:04:39.

cap will be consulted on. I think that was an important element of

:04:40.:04:43.

previous debates over social care so I welcome the announcement today and

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I believe that there will be many people out there who will also

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welcome it. Although it was very clear it was a break with previous

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stated Government policy that did say there should be a cap, and she

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went against that, so why has she changed her mind? Because she has

:05:00.:05:03.

listened to the concerns expressed about how the policy was set out in

:05:04.:05:15.

the manifesto she has made a significant change, which I think

:05:16.:05:17.

many people will welcome. It was called and hailed a dementia tax,

:05:18.:05:20.

which is true, it was a world of the dice, if you were unfortunate enough

:05:21.:05:23.

to get dementia in old age and at Ascot over ?100,000, you could see

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all a bit potentially go, if you did not get dementia but another illness

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treated on the NHS, even if you had valuable assets you did not pay

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anything? I don't think it is fair to characterise the proposals as a

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dementia tax. The reality is people already paid for their social

:05:39.:05:41.

care... It doesn't include their house in the calculation, does it?

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As I say, everything depends on a strong economy, only Theresa May and

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the Conservatives can deliver a strong economy and a

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successful Brexit. If we jeopardise that we won't be able to care for

:06:12.:06:13.

our frail elderly population. Chuka Umunna, it was not that long ago

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that Gordon Brown suggested a very similar policy that was dubbed a

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death tax, you may say very unfairly by the Conservatives at the time,

:06:20.:06:21.

with a maximum of ?20,000 paid after a person died to pay for the social

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care a person may have used when they were alive, so what was the

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problem? At the problem with this was there was no cap, as under the

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original plans. I'm sorry, this idea that somehow the Conservatives,

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people have sat in the Conservative cabinet since 2010, have been good

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for social care, Theresa, what you have done for social care in my area

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is absolutely criminal. What has happened is they have heavily,

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heavily cut the budget of local authorities, which has meant in turn

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they have not been able to provide the social care we need. That has

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had a knock-on effect on the NHS because it meant more older people

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going to A and when they go into hospital less likely to come out

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because there is nowhere for them to go afterwards,

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that is the reality of what you have done since 2010 and the only way we

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can resolve this, first of all decent integrated care for elderly

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people which looks after their mental, physical and social needs

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together, and we all have to make a contribution, but the idea that you

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dump the entire burden of setting out your social care with the

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families concerned without the rest of society playing a role, that is

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what your proposal originally was going to do, and this strong and

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stable Government... Let Theresa answer because that was the reality,

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that it was an inheritance tax, I think Ukip dubbed it a Conservative

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death tax, an inheritance tax on anything over ?100,000? The reality

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is people already contribute to the cost of their social care, that is

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not changing as a result of the proposals in the Conservative

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manifesto. But there was not a cap will stop one of the key reasons for

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the pressure on social care is we are an ageing society. Theresa May

:07:58.:08:01.

will take tough decisions to put that funding on a sustainable basis.

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You have taken away the funding. What is crucial to doing that is a

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strong economy which we will not get if Jeremy Corbyn is Prime Minister

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and in charge of Brexit negotiations. You must ring one of

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the MPs who voted no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn... Theresa bilious, we

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are talking about the social care policy. Let me tell you something, I

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always have far more confident in my Labour Party than your Tory party.

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What is the cap that Labour would put in, because it is not clear from

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your manifesto? It is true that Theresa May

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has now said she has changed her mind, there will be a lifetime cap

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on costs, but what is the cap in the Labour manifesto? There is no cap in

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the Labour manifesto because we would do this differently. We would

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put more money in social care... If you look at the social care policy

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in the Labour manifesto, you would also have a floor and a cap, so in

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that sense it is the same. I don't know what the cap is but the

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difference is, would we take away the funding from local authorities

:09:09.:09:09.

which provide social care for people? How much money would you put

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back into local authorities? One thing I would agree with Theresa on

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is we have a different economic policy and basically wouldn't

:09:19.:09:21.

massacre public services. Look at Lambeth, where I have been

:09:22.:09:25.

representing, it will mean our local authority will have decent funding

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to provide the care elderly people in my community need, that would be

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ripped away under the Conservatives and we see a role for society,

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family, all of us playing our part rather than having the entire burden

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sitting with their family. I know you don't know an exact cap, that is

:09:42.:09:45.

fine, we now know Theresa May hasn't said what the cap would be, but it

:09:46.:09:49.

does say in the Labour manifesto, we would seek consensus on a

:09:50.:09:52.

cross-party basis about how social care should be funded with options

:09:53.:09:57.

including wealth taxes, employer care contribution or a new social

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care levy, so you are looking at the same options that Theresa May has

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now clarified, to use your words? Well, we don't quite know what she

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is proposing. What would you prefer out of the Labour manifesto? We are

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looking at a range of options, I like the proposals put forward by

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Andrew Deal not, who tried to come up with a cross-party solution on

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this. Ultimately, one Government would be able to make a decision on

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the future of social care, it will be a multiple Government thing which

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is why we need to build a consensus on it. Let's go back to the issue of

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leadership, the point is there is nothing strong or stable about the

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leadership that Theresa May has shown when it has come to this

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social care policy, because it looked like it was hurting their

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election prospects, she has changed the policy, a U-turn. I would not

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characterise it like that at all. She is the right person to be Prime

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Minister and lead Brexit negotiations. If she was so strong,

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why has she felt the need to change the policy? Because she has listen

:11:05.:11:07.

to concerns that people have expressed over the weekend, it is

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right that she does that, Prime Minister is entitled to listen to

:11:13.:11:16.

concerns expressed about policy. And all of the stress and worry they

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have caused older people. People have a choice, on the 9th of

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June, do they want Jeremy Corbyn standing on the steps of Downing

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Street, or Theresa May? 11 days after that we start Brexit

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negotiations... I know you want to talk about Brexit but this is a big

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policy change that has been announced today. Let's see how it is

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playing with voters. Adam has taken the Daily Politics

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moodbox to Birmingham. Adam, what's the moodbox

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question today? Greetings from a slightly breezy

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Birmingham, I apologise if you can hear any dreading or dilling. The

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question is, before the Prime Minister did her speech today, is

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which party leader do you trust to sort out the issue of adult social

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care, is it Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn? Worth remembering Jeremy

:12:08.:12:12.

Corbyn's policy proposal is an extra 8 billion on social care by the end

:12:13.:12:17.

of the next parliament and in the longer term to set up this social

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care policy. Here is what the brumbies had to say about the issue.

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-- what the Brummies had to say. Do you care about the issue

:12:28.:12:29.

of care for the elderly? But you wouldn't need it

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for about another 60 years? Which party leader do

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you trust to look after Because, like, the Labour manifesto,

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it's laid out well, it's costed well and it's done in a way that reflects

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nicely on most of society and gives older people and young

:12:47.:12:50.

people both a chance. Unlike the Tories, that

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have their weird death tax thing, Have you been sent

:12:53.:12:54.

here by Labour HQ? What do you think about their plans

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for the whole ?100,000, including a house in the means

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test for care? But, at the end of the day,

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we've got a purse within which we have to live

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in, and we have to cut There's not endless

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amounts of money. Yes, it's going to

:13:13.:13:15.

disadvantage some people. But, ultimately, as a society,

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I think we have to get Which party leader do you trust

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to look after your grandparents Care for older people,

:13:20.:13:23.

the massive story at the moment. Some people are calling

:13:24.:13:31.

it the dementia tax, Well, I don't think

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they're going to... I don't think it'll

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happen at all, really. I've got friends that work

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in adult social care, We tried to get care for somebody

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in my family and it hasn't really worked out because of the cuts

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that we've had. Do you think this is going to affect

:13:54.:13:55.

the outcome of the election? You can see there's

:13:56.:13:58.

a swing towards Labour. But I don't think it will be big

:13:59.:14:04.

enough to beat the Conservatives. When it really comes down to it,

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I think a lot of people have an altruistic view,

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except when they have Who do you trust to sort out

:14:26.:14:27.

care for the elderly? Because I don't trust

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a Conservative. Because I think he's

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a more genuine guy. This whole issue about care

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for older people, has it What did you think of

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the system that was in place? Do you think it'll ever

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get fixed, the system, Well, it's totally unscientific,

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but it looks as if a big majority of people think Jeremy Corbyn

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is the person who can sort out Thank you, Adam. Unscientific, but

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anecdotally, Corbyn on the side of the elderly and the Tories and

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Theresa May not. Was it just too complacent to bring out a proposal

:15:20.:15:24.

like the social care one that was half baked? Well, the motivation

:15:25.:15:28.

behind the proposal was too but social care on a sustainable

:15:29.:15:32.

financial basis. -- to put social care on a sustainable financial

:15:33.:15:36.

basis. This is a real contest, it is not easy to predict the outcome of

:15:37.:15:40.

the election. Was it complacent? Should she not have put out a policy

:15:41.:15:46.

that was going to be controversial at the least, brave at best? What

:15:47.:15:50.

people should draw from this is that the protest vote for Labour or the

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Lib Dems involves a real risk that Jeremy Corbyn will be our Prime

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Minister. Did it help that your party didn't come clean about which

:15:58.:16:02.

pensioners would be affected by means testing the winter fuel

:16:03.:16:10.

allowance? I don't think... That is obviously an issue that we will need

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to address as part of a consultation on how to implement these proposals,

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if we are re-elected. That consultation will look at the level

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at which arrangements on the winter fuel payments are correlated. You

:16:23.:16:29.

say this so casually. More than 7000 older people in the constituency I

:16:30.:16:34.

have been representing since 2010, about 72% of older people could be

:16:35.:16:37.

affected by what you are talking about. You're just casually talking

:16:38.:16:42.

about these things, oh, well, we can sort it. Why should wealthy

:16:43.:16:49.

pensioners get those allowances? Hang on... Well, answer that

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question. I'm answering the question. If you look at what Labour

:16:54.:16:58.

had been proposing in the last general election, yes, more wealthy

:16:59.:17:02.

pensioners will be affected by this. You are talking about 72% of old age

:17:03.:17:06.

pensioners that receive the winter fuel allowance. Hang on, they

:17:07.:17:10.

haven't put a limit. What should it be said at? Until you put a limit,

:17:11.:17:15.

or say where the means test is going to fall, a bit like the social care

:17:16.:17:19.

policy, people will think it is going to affect them. In due course,

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if we are re-elected, we will set out a threshold. Should it have been

:17:26.:17:30.

done in the manifesto? You know, it's not a decision that was taken

:17:31.:17:34.

easily. But the reality is that we need, in an era where resources are

:17:35.:17:41.

limited by the deficit, that we inherited in 2010, we need to make

:17:42.:17:47.

sure that we spend taxpayer money... Are you really blaming Labour for

:17:48.:17:51.

something that happened in 2010? We left government seven years ago, and

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your mug has borrowed more in that seven years than the Labour

:17:56.:17:59.

Government did in 13 years. You were proposing the same bringing down of

:18:00.:18:03.

the deficit as happened under the Conservatives and coalition? We

:18:04.:18:06.

would have achieved our target. Well, we won't know, of course.

:18:07.:18:10.

Vicki Young is where the Prime Minister was giving his speech. How

:18:11.:18:13.

has it gone down, the big change and you turn on social care policy, not

:18:14.:18:18.

just a floor of ?100,000 in care costs, but now there is going to be

:18:19.:18:24.

a cap? Yes, pretty incredible stuff. Just four days after the

:18:25.:18:29.

Conservative manifesto was launched, Theresa May is urging us to look at

:18:30.:18:33.

page 65. She says there is no change, well, that is not the way I

:18:34.:18:38.

see it. If you look here, you can see in this document that they talk

:18:39.:18:40.

about the fact your house will be taken into account, they talk about

:18:41.:18:44.

deferred payments, they talk about the fact you will be able to keep

:18:45.:18:49.

?100,000, ultimately. No mention of a cap. That is such a fundamental

:18:50.:18:58.

part of this kind of policy. It is not like work has not been done on

:18:59.:19:00.

this. There have been numerous reports into social care and the way

:19:01.:19:03.

that you can fund it in a different way. Caps have been talked about,

:19:04.:19:06.

David Cameron was due to bring in a cap of ?72,000 in 2020. No mention

:19:07.:19:12.

of that in this document. Theresa May, insisting nothing has changed,

:19:13.:19:15.

the principal stay the same and she is going to tackle the issue of

:19:16.:19:18.

social care, because everybody agrees more money needs to go in the

:19:19.:19:22.

system. Instead, she has accused Jeremy Corbyn and Labour of

:19:23.:19:26.

spreading fake claims, fear and scaremongering over people losing

:19:27.:19:29.

their homes. Everybody is free to read this document, everybody will

:19:30.:19:32.

look at that and see that there was no mention of a cap. The fact that

:19:33.:19:38.

yesterday Damian Green, her pension secretary, said there would be no

:19:39.:19:41.

rowing back from these proposals, that they had been decided. Was the

:19:42.:19:45.

fact that she hadn't really consulted many of her ministers a

:19:46.:19:49.

problem, in terms of putting out what her critics have called a half

:19:50.:19:53.

baked policy that ended up looking like a dementia tax? Yes, that is

:19:54.:19:59.

the criticism from some in the party, that she has very close

:20:00.:20:02.

advisers, that she relies on them too heavily, rather than talking to

:20:03.:20:09.

some Cabinet ministers around her. Damian Green not just saying there

:20:10.:20:13.

would be no rowing back, he criticised the idea of a cap. What

:20:14.:20:17.

she is saying, although I have to say, she sounded very rattled, she

:20:18.:20:21.

sounded under pressure and she does not usually. She has made such a big

:20:22.:20:26.

deal in this campaign about being strong, stable, any kind of U-turn

:20:27.:20:29.

or significant change like this is going to be absolutely seized upon

:20:30.:20:33.

by her opponents. She will say it is all about taking tough decisions and

:20:34.:20:38.

she will say she has been willing to tackle an issue many others have not

:20:39.:20:45.

been willing to do. Thank you. I am joined by two top-notch political

:20:46.:20:46.

journalists. correspondent for the Telegraph,

:20:47.:20:53.

and Jim Waterson, political editor We have been looking for campaign

:20:54.:21:02.

drama for a while. Now we have a screeching U-turn from Theresa May.

:21:03.:21:06.

I don't think she expected this. Talking to Tory MPs, they were

:21:07.:21:09.

saying on the doorstep that this was actually coming up. They are a bit

:21:10.:21:13.

rattled. The text messages I have been getting from people in marginal

:21:14.:21:16.

seats, we are confident we are going to destroy Jeremy Corbyn, take seats

:21:17.:21:20.

we have never taken before, suddenly there were dealing with pensioners

:21:21.:21:23.

that were really concerned. People didn't necessarily know what the

:21:24.:21:26.

policy was, they didn't like what they heard about it. They didn't

:21:27.:21:29.

know the details, but they didn't like the idea that somebody was

:21:30.:21:32.

going to get hold of their house and it was not going to be their kids.

:21:33.:21:37.

Presumably, it was because they made a link between tightening the polls

:21:38.:21:40.

over the weekend at the announcement of this policy on Thursday? Yes. It

:21:41.:21:45.

was not a good weekend for the Tories. Everybody has been boasting

:21:46.:21:56.

about how well they are doing, but this week we saw, over the weekend,

:21:57.:21:59.

that they only have a 9-point lead. That's the first time it has been a

:22:00.:22:01.

single number since Theresa May announced the snap poll. I think

:22:02.:22:04.

they got pretty nervous. We will always expecting a bit of a wobble

:22:05.:22:07.

at some point. I think a lot of candidates were thinking like

:22:08.:22:09.

Theresa May was being a bit cocky. They knew they were doing well, they

:22:10.:22:12.

kind of thought, let's go for it, let's go out there. All of the polls

:22:13.:22:14.

over the weekend, specifically on the dementia tax, as shown it is

:22:15.:22:18.

unpopular and Labour are doing better. They have the key message

:22:19.:22:21.

out there. They have used the phrase dementia tax and it has been

:22:22.:22:29.

incredibly damaging. If we look at other issues, Jeremy Corbyn came

:22:30.:22:31.

under fire over the weekend for his association with the IRA and he

:22:32.:22:35.

refused to condemn IRA bombing without equating to other parties.

:22:36.:22:38.

Does his position on Security and defence negatively impact on the

:22:39.:22:44.

retail offers that Labour was making? There are problems,

:22:45.:22:46.

certainly in the seats where they are fighting with the Tories, the

:22:47.:22:51.

Midlands and the North. While the interesting things with the IRA and

:22:52.:22:53.

Jeremy Corbyn is the way the has developed. If you are under 40,

:22:54.:22:59.

perhaps you associate the IRA and things like that more with the Good

:23:00.:23:02.

Friday agreement and the peace process, so it is less of a toxic

:23:03.:23:06.

association. For a lot of older voters, the sort of people the

:23:07.:23:08.

Conservatives need to get onside, that is where it hits home.

:23:09.:23:11.

Depending on the generational gap, it is behaving slightly differently.

:23:12.:23:18.

What about Labour's university tuition fees policy. How popular is

:23:19.:23:23.

that? I think it will be very popular. Labour are clearly

:23:24.:23:26.

targeting the younger generation. That is where Mr Corbyn's supporters

:23:27.:23:30.

are from, mainly. They are saying they're going to scrap them

:23:31.:23:33.

entirely, from September there will be scrapped so that students do not

:23:34.:23:37.

deferred. It is going to be popular with young people and we know that

:23:38.:23:40.

young people are who Jeremy Corbyn is targeting. But do they vote? Good

:23:41.:23:47.

question. Today is the final day to get people to register to vote, and

:23:48.:23:50.

there is a reason why they announced today. Normally, people are going to

:23:51.:23:58.

benefit in the next generation. Now you can say, vote Labour, get your

:23:59.:24:01.

education for free. This was supposed to be the Brexit election,

:24:02.:24:05.

as Theresa May build it, she returned to that theme today, no

:24:06.:24:09.

doubt to distract from the change on social care policy. She was the one

:24:10.:24:14.

that decided to make it about public services, to a large extent. Is her

:24:15.:24:18.

decision broadly parking her tanks and Labour's lawn, backfiring? Well,

:24:19.:24:25.

Labour is gaining in the polls. The Tories still have a massive lead.

:24:26.:24:31.

There are a lot of issues around the campaign, polls tend to swing back

:24:32.:24:36.

to the government. It's hard to argue that Jeremy Corbyn has not had

:24:37.:24:40.

a surprisingly good campaign in the eyes of a lot of people, but still

:24:41.:24:44.

has a long way to make up. Theresa May would be much happier if this

:24:45.:24:48.

was all about Jeremy Corbyn, and about Brexit, than things like

:24:49.:24:51.

social care. That is what we are seeing today. Thank you to both of

:24:52.:24:53.

you. Now, as we've just been hearing,

:24:54.:24:58.

Jeremy Corbyn's attitude to the IRA So when it comes to the Labour

:24:59.:25:01.

leader and other members of his inner circle,

:25:02.:25:05.

what exactly is their record As a backbencher in the 1980s,

:25:06.:25:07.

Mr Corbyn was criticised for his activities with the controversial

:25:08.:25:13.

Troops Out movement, which campaigned to end British

:25:14.:25:15.

military involvement in Northern He's also been questioned

:25:16.:25:17.

about his links to a magazine called London Labour Briefing,

:25:18.:25:20.

which in 1984 published an article celebrating

:25:21.:25:22.

the IRA's Brighton bombing, In the 1980s, during some

:25:23.:25:24.

of the most violent years of the Troubles, Mr Corbyn

:25:25.:25:32.

and the current Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell

:25:33.:25:34.

met the IRA on a number They said the meetings

:25:35.:25:36.

were part of their attempt The IRA declared

:25:37.:25:42.

a ceasefire in 1994. Diane Abbott, now Shadow Home

:25:43.:25:46.

Secretary, has been criticised for comments she made in a 1984

:25:47.:25:48.

interview, when she proclaimed "Every defeat

:25:49.:25:51.

of the British state... Then, in 2003, John McDonnell

:25:52.:25:53.

praised the "bombs and bullets...that brought Britain

:25:54.:26:02.

to the negotiating table," comments Well, yesterday Mr Corbyn was asked

:26:03.:26:04.

again about the IRA, and refused five times to condemn

:26:05.:26:09.

them specifically for their role in the Troubles, saying only that

:26:10.:26:12.

"all bombing is wrong". Let's hear a section

:26:13.:26:16.

of that interview. Do you condemn

:26:17.:26:18.

unequivocally the IRA? But you condemned

:26:19.:26:21.

all bombing, there. Can you condemn the IRA

:26:22.:26:28.

without equating it to... No, I think what you have to say

:26:29.:26:33.

is that all bombing has to be condemned and you have to bring

:26:34.:26:36.

about a peace process... Wait a minute, can you

:26:37.:26:38.

let me finish, please? In the 1980s, Britain was looking

:26:39.:26:42.

for a military solution in Ireland. Ask anyone in the British

:26:43.:26:45.

Army at that time. Therefore, you have

:26:46.:26:49.

to seek a peace process. You condemn the violence of those

:26:50.:26:53.

that laid bombs that killed large numbers of innocent people,

:26:54.:26:56.

and I do. So can you condemn the IRA,

:26:57.:27:00.

who were responsible... I've just condemned all those

:27:01.:27:02.

that did bombing... If you let me finish

:27:03.:27:05.

as well, after I've just... Chuka Umunna, your leader had five

:27:06.:27:19.

opportunities in that interview to condemn the IRA specifically and he

:27:20.:27:21.

refused to do so. Was that a mistake? Anybody watching the clip

:27:22.:27:27.

will have seen him condemn the IRA and all bombing. I am very clear,

:27:28.:27:32.

unequivocally, the bombing and all of the violence which they brought

:27:33.:27:38.

upon the whole of the UK is totally, totally awful and an acceptable. I

:27:39.:27:43.

think that is basically what he said, whilst also talking about the

:27:44.:27:46.

loyalists and what others did. The problem some people might have, and

:27:47.:27:50.

I'm not saying everybody, some people might have, is his inability,

:27:51.:27:55.

his seeming inability to condemn the IRA. Saying all bombing is wrong,

:27:56.:27:58.

well, everybody would say all bombing is wrong. If you can't

:27:59.:28:03.

condemn the IRA... Do you really think Jeremy Corbyn is somebody who

:28:04.:28:06.

wanted to see death and destruction in Northern Ireland? Are you going

:28:07.:28:09.

to buy the front of the Daily Mail today, Tory supporting papers, the

:28:10.:28:12.

Telegraph, or take at face value what he said? Would it have been

:28:13.:28:18.

easier for him to then, and this was not an interview from years ago,

:28:19.:28:21.

this is yesterday, what was preventing him just saying yes, I

:28:22.:28:26.

condemn the IRA bombing. You will have to ask him that question. But

:28:27.:28:32.

he is the leader of the Labour Party. If you want to talk about the

:28:33.:28:35.

Labour Party in Northern Ireland, I am extremely proud of the record of

:28:36.:28:38.

the last Labour government are helping to bring about peace. And

:28:39.:28:44.

John Major as well. But he was not in that government. I was six when

:28:45.:28:52.

these things were said. You are a young man, but might it be a problem

:28:53.:28:57.

for some voters to listen to an interview like that, Jeremy Corbyn

:28:58.:29:00.

was not part of the government that you were talking about, under Tony

:29:01.:29:03.

Blair, that dealt with the peace process. Is it difficult to sell, as

:29:04.:29:08.

I asked the journalist before, Labour's off on the doorstep if

:29:09.:29:11.

people have reservations about what they might feel is biased towards

:29:12.:29:18.

one side or the other about Northern Ireland, bearing in mind that this

:29:19.:29:21.

man wants to be the next Prime Minister? If you're talking about

:29:22.:29:24.

being biased towards one side or the other, he condemned the IRA and the

:29:25.:29:27.

loyalists. Do you have an issue with the fact that when he was condemn

:29:28.:29:31.

any IRA, he also condemned the loyalists? If that is a big issue

:29:32.:29:34.

for you, that he would not condemn the IRA on its own, I am not sure

:29:35.:29:39.

that for most people this is an issue. I have been on the doorstep,

:29:40.:29:43.

not just my own constituency, but in Birmingham... He was condemning the

:29:44.:29:47.

British Army as well? The issue, which has been known about for a

:29:48.:29:51.

long time, was not brought up. Was this not the point, it is just a

:29:52.:29:54.

convenient weapon with which to attack Jeremy Corbyn? For his past

:29:55.:30:00.

associations with the organisation, with the IRA, to distract from what

:30:01.:30:04.

is actually going on in this election? That is not what is

:30:05.:30:08.

happening here. I met many victims of IRA violence. There will be upset

:30:09.:30:13.

and distressed by the fact that someone is holding himself out as

:30:14.:30:18.

our next Prime Minister, potentially, and will not

:30:19.:30:21.

unequivocally condemn... He condemned all bombing. Didn't he?

:30:22.:30:24.

What is wrong with that? He condemned both sides. Isn't that

:30:25.:30:28.

what you want? Somebody who is impartial, prepared to condemn

:30:29.:30:30.

wrongdoing on both sides? Maybe it wouldn't be such a big

:30:31.:30:41.

problem if he didn't have this track record on these matters and his

:30:42.:30:45.

Shadow Chancellor praised the bombs and bullets of the IRA and yet

:30:46.:30:50.

people are being asked on the 8th of June to trust these people with the

:30:51.:30:54.

security of our nation. Remember Jeremy Corbyn also refers to groups

:30:55.:30:59.

like Hamas and has bomber as his friends. Well, he has said that

:31:00.:31:05.

wasn't the case, even if he used the word Brenkley he was talking more

:31:06.:31:11.

generally about people that were at conferences in the past, not

:31:12.:31:15.

specifically members of Hamas. But, again, Chuka, doesn't it make your

:31:16.:31:20.

job much, much harder if this issue is going to come up time and time

:31:21.:31:25.

again and people are unsure about where Jeremy Corbyn stands? It gets

:31:26.:31:30.

raised time and again in the Telegraph and other Conservative

:31:31.:31:35.

supporting newspapers but people on the doorstep are not asking about

:31:36.:31:39.

the IRA, they are talking about the dementia tax, tuition fees, they

:31:40.:31:43.

like the tuition fees proposals, they have asked about the public

:31:44.:31:46.

sector pay cap which we will abolish, they ask us about many

:31:47.:31:50.

other things. I haven't had anybody bringing up the IRA on the doorstep

:31:51.:31:54.

and that is not just in my constituency but several other

:31:55.:32:00.

regions as well. If Jeremy Corbyn is Prime Minister, you will have to

:32:01.:32:03.

deal with the British military, he will have to deal with policies in

:32:04.:32:12.

Northern Ireland. On the basis of what Theresa de Villiers said, how

:32:13.:32:15.

difficult will that be with his track record? As I said, you ass

:32:16.:32:17.

with a question, I answered it, it is not an issue on the doorstep. But

:32:18.:32:21.

if he became Prime Minister, how difficult would it be in his

:32:22.:32:23.

dealings with the British military, for example? I think the British

:32:24.:32:31.

military will work with whoever is elected, that is why we have an

:32:32.:32:34.

impartial civil service and an impasse or set of Armed Forces, that

:32:35.:32:38.

is how it should be. Are you not making much more of this, Theresa de

:32:39.:32:43.

Villiers, for party political purposes. Jeremy Corbyn and John

:32:44.:32:49.

McDonnell had meetings with the IRA in the 1980s, perhaps that was

:32:50.:32:52.

far-sighted, we now know that the British Government did it but in

:32:53.:32:55.

secret, so perhaps it made perfect sense because it led to peace?

:32:56.:33:00.

Jeremy Corbyn has a 30 year track record of voting against measures to

:33:01.:33:04.

protect security. When he was asked by a journalist, would he think it

:33:05.:33:07.

was correct for a police officer faced with a gun-wielding terrorist

:33:08.:33:13.

to fire at that terrorist, he wouldn't even support a police

:33:14.:33:18.

officer. He is not capable of dealing in a responsible way with

:33:19.:33:22.

our security service. That is not actually true, if you watch the

:33:23.:33:25.

interview that I think you are referring to with Laura Kuenssberg

:33:26.:33:29.

Cobbe said, if you are going to have police officers using lethal force

:33:30.:33:32.

then there has to be a reference to a set of rules and guidelines under

:33:33.:33:36.

which they do it. Your interpretation there is a deliberate

:33:37.:33:40.

untruths, I would argue. The question that I put to you is, what

:33:41.:33:44.

is wrong with talking to armed dissidents, what is wrong with

:33:45.:33:53.

talking to people that you want to get around the negotiating table?

:33:54.:33:55.

That is what the British Government did so what is the difference? It is

:33:56.:33:58.

clear the IRA and Sinn Fein were not allowed to be included in formal

:33:59.:34:02.

peace talks until they adopted the Mitchell rules and agreed not to

:34:03.:34:07.

resort to violence but the key thing here is who is going to be the Prime

:34:08.:34:11.

Minister who will face got our security? Theresa May have a track

:34:12.:34:16.

record of Home Secretary, one of the most successful in history, the

:34:17.:34:20.

choice is between her keeping our country save or vesting this in the

:34:21.:34:25.

incapable hands of Jeremy Corbyn. The Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams,

:34:26.:34:30.

at the manifesto launch of Sinn Fein, has defended the Labour

:34:31.:34:33.

leader, defended Jeremy Corbyn, following the row that we have been

:34:34.:34:41.

talking about, and that that Mr Corbyn was on the right side of

:34:42.:34:43.

history. If that helpful to the Labour campaign? I don't think

:34:44.:34:47.

people will be seeking the advice of Gerry Adams or anyone else in my

:34:48.:34:52.

constituency as to how they vote. In the end they will look at the

:34:53.:34:55.

policies being offered by the Labour Party, they are popular policies and

:34:56.:34:59.

they will make a judgment. Because this is a difficult area? In the

:35:00.:35:04.

end, when we look at the history of Northern Ireland over the last few

:35:05.:35:08.

decades and much longer, should the Conservative Party be seeking to

:35:09.:35:11.

play party politics in the middle of a general election with this issue

:35:12.:35:20.

when we have seen so many people on both sides lose their lives?

:35:21.:35:22.

Personally I think it is rather distasteful and I don't think they

:35:23.:35:25.

should be doing this. Let's leave it there.

:35:26.:35:25.

Let's get a round-up of all the rest of the election campaign

:35:26.:35:28.

The sun is shining, it is nice and warm but we don't have time for that

:35:29.:35:33.

because there are only 17 campaigning days left of the

:35:34.:35:36.

selection. Another couple of manifestos today but another more

:35:37.:35:39.

urgent deadline looming, the deadline to register to vote, that

:35:40.:35:43.

is at one minute to midnight tonight to do so if you have not done so

:35:44.:35:47.

already, so quick, hurry up! Here is Norman.

:35:48.:35:52.

It is something our ancestors fought and died for, fundamental to our

:35:53.:35:58.

democracy, in the mother of all parliaments, the right to vote. But

:35:59.:36:04.

if that is not reason enough, there is always free beer. Pubs across the

:36:05.:36:08.

country are offering free pints to young people who have registered to

:36:09.:36:11.

vote ahead of the deadline tonight. Here is one user who has taken

:36:12.:36:15.

advantage. Labour board their manifesto was so good that they

:36:16.:36:19.

launched it twice. The Tories did it in a warehouse. The Lib Dems stood

:36:20.:36:24.

on some flags. Today it was the turn of greens, here, unveiling their

:36:25.:36:28.

plans for a softer Brexit. Vote Green for a competent and caring

:36:29.:36:34.

Britain. The Lib Dem leader Tim Farron was trying to up the anti on

:36:35.:36:38.

being anti-Tory plans for social care funding suggesting it would

:36:39.:36:42.

affect nine in ten English homes. This is a devastating death tax

:36:43.:36:47.

trumped up on the back of an envelope. It is not often Ukip agree

:36:48.:36:51.

with the Lib Dems on anything. Funnily enough Patrick O'Flynn did

:36:52.:36:55.

not mention the pledge by another Ukip candidate that he would push

:36:56.:36:59.

for asteroid belt mining and a spaceship capable of interstellar

:37:00.:37:03.

travel if he was elected. Do you want housing? Do you want care? They

:37:04.:37:08.

were there to see the libertines, they got this rock star instead. We

:37:09.:37:13.

can achieve it together! Thank you very much!

:37:14.:37:18.

CROWD CHANTS. Whatever happens on June the 8th,

:37:19.:37:22.

there is always Glastonbury. Something to look forward to.

:37:23.:37:24.

And I'll be talking to the Green Party leader

:37:25.:37:26.

Caroline Lucas about her party's manifesto on the programme tomorrow.

:37:27.:37:29.

Now, last night the first Scottish television debate

:37:30.:37:31.

The six party leaders clashed on big issues such as Brexit

:37:32.:37:35.

But it was the question of funding for the NHS that provoked

:37:36.:37:39.

the most fiery exchange, when one member of the audience -

:37:40.:37:42.

a nurse - criticised the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon over

:37:43.:37:44.

We have not heard from Jeremy Corbyn...

:37:45.:37:50.

How do you expect somebody to live on that?

:37:51.:38:08.

Do you think that's what nurses go into nursing for?

:38:09.:38:12.

I'm telling you now, I would rather leave nursing

:38:13.:38:17.

as would many more of my colleagues, than have to strike.

:38:18.:38:20.

You have no idea how demoralising it is to work within the NHS.

:38:21.:38:25.

Don't come on your announced visit, come in on the middle of any

:38:26.:38:30.

day, into any ward, any A department.

:38:31.:38:32.

My sister works in the National Health Service.

:38:33.:38:43.

Believe me, she tells me exactly what she thinks about those matters.

:38:44.:38:51.

If you listen to me, I'm actually agreeing with you.

:38:52.:38:54.

We've had a really difficult period with public spending.

:38:55.:38:56.

We've also, in Scotland, unlike in the rest of the UK,

:38:57.:39:00.

had a policy of no compulsory redundancies in the NHS

:39:01.:39:04.

and the wider public sector to try to protect jobs.

:39:05.:39:13.

I'm joined now by the SNP's Drew Hendry, who is in Inverness for us.

:39:14.:39:19.

Do you have some sympathy with the nurse who was in the audience in

:39:20.:39:26.

that debate? I think, as you heard Nicola Sturgeon saying, she agreed

:39:27.:39:29.

that because of rising inflation, because of the austerity policies

:39:30.:39:34.

that the Tories have been wedded to across the UK, there is

:39:35.:39:38.

unsustainable pressure now on the cost of living, and that

:39:39.:39:44.

inflationary process means that there are already meetings in the

:39:45.:39:48.

staff side of the NHS to look at the issues and Nicola Sturgeon said she

:39:49.:39:53.

was looking to remove that. She is open to looking at it, should nurses

:39:54.:39:57.

be paid more in Scotland or not? Nurses are being paid more in

:39:58.:40:02.

Scotland, ?300 per year roughly compared to nurses in England... I

:40:03.:40:06.

mean, should they be paid more than they are currently in Scotland? If

:40:07.:40:10.

you look at information going up, as it is at the moment across the UK

:40:11.:40:22.

and the affected will on wages, of course, as I have just said, that

:40:23.:40:24.

pay restraint is now unsustainable... You have the power

:40:25.:40:26.

to increase pay for nurses, don't you? That is what we have done in

:40:27.:40:29.

Scotland by making sure nurses are paid more in Scotland than in the

:40:30.:40:33.

NHS... Nicola Sturgeon agreed there that pay has not gone up, she agreed

:40:34.:40:37.

with the nurse who said they have not had a pay rise since 2008. The

:40:38.:40:42.

1% pay cap has been in place for a while, there have been rises in pay

:40:43.:40:48.

but pegged to that 1%... So I say again, you have the power to pay

:40:49.:40:52.

over and above that, why haven't you? Pay restraint has been a

:40:53.:40:57.

necessary effect of the austerity policies from the Tory Government...

:40:58.:41:00.

Not to do with the Government, you have the power to do something

:41:01.:41:12.

different. If you feel that nurses should be paid more, then you have

:41:13.:41:14.

tax-raising powers, health is devolved, you could have done

:41:15.:41:16.

something entirely different. There are a range of people who need to be

:41:17.:41:19.

paid more and the budget that comes to the Scottish Government is meted

:41:20.:41:23.

out in order to make sure we meet the needs of people, employees

:41:24.:41:27.

across the nation. The Scottish Government don't forget built in the

:41:28.:41:31.

real living wage for all public sector employees to make sure people

:41:32.:41:35.

had a decent chance of a good living. That is something that has

:41:36.:41:38.

not happened across England and Wales. We have a proud record of

:41:39.:41:41.

being able to tackle though play whenever it is in our gift and as I

:41:42.:41:46.

said the issue around pay restraint, because of the rising inflation, it

:41:47.:41:53.

looks unsustainable, Nicola Sturgeon said clearly she would do something

:41:54.:41:58.

about it. The nurse said she had to use food banks. Is that acceptable?

:41:59.:42:03.

Despite what you have just read, is it acceptable that a nurse working

:42:04.:42:07.

in the NHS in Scotland have to use a food bank? It is not acceptable that

:42:08.:42:12.

anybody has to use a food bank. But you could do something about it,

:42:13.:42:16.

which you have conceded. Let me just ask the question, you talked about

:42:17.:42:20.

pay restraint and austerity, you blamed the

:42:21.:42:35.

Conservative Government for that and talked about inflation, which makes

:42:36.:42:38.

it sound like the Scottish Government has no power at all and

:42:39.:42:41.

is impotent in terms of trying to alleviate the pressure is on page

:42:42.:42:43.

four people who live in Scotland, why don't you raise income tax if

:42:44.:42:46.

you want to pay people more? I have told you about some of the measures

:42:47.:42:49.

we have taken to make sure people get a real living wage, as opposed

:42:50.:42:52.

to that put forward by the UK Government. We are actively doing

:42:53.:42:54.

things like that, but you cannot get away from the fact that when the

:42:55.:42:57.

budgetary system is run in the way it is in the UK and money comes to

:42:58.:43:01.

Scotland, in order to make sure we are paying for services we need to

:43:02.:43:04.

make sure that money is going to protect people and that is what we

:43:05.:43:09.

have done in terms of pay and we have made sure that we have

:43:10.:43:13.

introduced the living wage, that nurses get paid more in Scotland

:43:14.:43:17.

than in England, and we are actively looking at the pay restraint issue

:43:18.:43:20.

because of the fact that inflation now makes it look completely

:43:21.:43:24.

unsustainable. There was a suggestion by some SNP members that

:43:25.:43:30.

the nurse we were talking about was married to at Conservative member,

:43:31.:43:40.

that is untrue. Is that the kind of thing that should be put forward by

:43:41.:43:45.

your party? Somebody said something onto it and almost immediately

:43:46.:43:48.

apologised for it, that was the fact of the matter. But do you agree that

:43:49.:43:53.

that was unacceptable and inappropriate? Of course, it is

:43:54.:43:56.

never acceptable to use that kind of thing. But can I come back to what I

:43:57.:44:00.

was going to say about universal credit, because this is an issue of

:44:01.:44:04.

pay and the ability of people to live their lives in Scotland.

:44:05.:44:17.

I have just come from a meeting of universal credit in Inverness, where

:44:18.:44:21.

it has been rolled out early across this area, it is coming to the rest

:44:22.:44:24.

of the UK shortly and we have got people, because of the universal

:44:25.:44:26.

credit changes that the UK Government are making, working

:44:27.:44:28.

people who are suffering because of cuts to those benefits that are

:44:29.:44:30.

coming out, it is also affecting the disabled and the unemployed as well.

:44:31.:44:33.

Just because I have not that that much more time with you, let's have

:44:34.:44:37.

a look at your manifesto, which is coming out tomorrow, I understand.

:44:38.:44:41.

Can we look forward to an end to the public pay freeze in that manifesto?

:44:42.:44:45.

I'm not going to pre-empt the manifesto launch tomorrow but what I

:44:46.:44:48.

can tell you is that our manifesto will be looking after people with

:44:49.:44:53.

fairness and equality at its heart, unlike what we have seen from the

:44:54.:44:57.

Tory manifesto which attacks pensioners... We have done that, I

:44:58.:45:01.

am more interested in your manifesto. We will see it tomorrow

:45:02.:45:05.

and we will no doubt talk to you again, thank you very much.

:45:06.:45:10.

As well as discussing all of the main parties contesting

:45:11.:45:13.

this general election, we're also looking at the platforms

:45:14.:45:15.

of the smaller parties and today it's the turn

:45:16.:45:17.

The BNP is a nationalist party and it says it wants

:45:18.:45:21.

They are pledging to stop all immigration into the UK,

:45:22.:45:29.

and offer grants to people of foreign descent who volunteer

:45:30.:45:31.

They want to stop what they call the "Islamisation of the UK" and ban

:45:32.:45:38.

hijabs, burkas and the building of new mosques.

:45:39.:45:41.

They also want to abolish anti-discrimination laws,

:45:42.:45:43.

and be tough on law and order by re-introducing the death penalty.

:45:44.:45:46.

We've been joined in the studio by party spokesman and general

:45:47.:45:48.

I am joined by Adam Walker. It is reported your membership is down to

:45:49.:45:59.

a few hundred. In the last election, you lost 99.7% of your vote share,

:46:00.:46:03.

winning just 1600 votes and the party has been riven with infighting

:46:04.:46:07.

and defections. Why is the party in such a perilous state? Yes, it has

:46:08.:46:12.

been quoted that our membership is right down. Isn't it? No, it is at

:46:13.:46:19.

about 3000. What we have to remember is that every month and every year

:46:20.:46:23.

for the past seven years, we have actually operated in a profit. We

:46:24.:46:25.

are doing quite well in that respect. How many members have you

:46:26.:46:31.

got? About 3000, but it is growing. We are doing a lot better since the

:46:32.:46:37.

collapse of Ukip. Doing better since that? How much, though? There has

:46:38.:46:46.

been a decline in membership in the last few years. How much of that is

:46:47.:46:49.

down to your leadership? It is not down to my leadership. We have Ukip,

:46:50.:46:52.

who have been promoted by the mass media. They are doing better than

:46:53.:46:55.

you and are more appealing? They have done in the past. What we have

:46:56.:47:00.

seen with the collapse of Ukip since Brexit, we are gaining members from

:47:01.:47:04.

them and we are pleased about that. One of your policies is zero

:47:05.:47:08.

tolerance for drug dealers and violent thugs. But you were given a

:47:09.:47:13.

six-month suspended sentence in 2012 after verbally abusing three young

:47:14.:47:17.

schoolchildren, chasing them in your 4x4 and slashing the tyres of their

:47:18.:47:22.

bikes with a knife. You were a schoolteacher at the time? If that

:47:23.:47:28.

is not thuggish behaviour, what is? EU the judge described it as a Rush

:47:29.:47:31.

of blood to the head, I apologise that the time. Are you the right

:47:32.:47:38.

person to be the party leader? I do apologise for that and I said I

:47:39.:47:41.

apologise. If we look at criminality, we need to look at the

:47:42.:47:48.

recent programme, talking about the criminality happening in towns...

:47:49.:47:51.

You can't brush it to the side like that. You are the chairman of the

:47:52.:47:57.

British National Party and yet that sort of behaviour, you think, can be

:47:58.:48:00.

excused by a brief rush to the head? It can't be excused at all, I

:48:01.:48:05.

apologise that the time... But you had a six-month suspended jail

:48:06.:48:08.

sentence. If we want to look at criminality, look at what has

:48:09.:48:14.

happened in Rochdale... And those people were convicted and went to

:48:15.:48:18.

jail. Would you be happy for one of them to be in charge of all the

:48:19.:48:23.

chairman of a party? If we want to look at other criminals, we cannot

:48:24.:48:27.

get Tony Blair, who took us to an illegal war under the pretence of

:48:28.:48:31.

weapons mass destruction. I believe, and members of our party believe,

:48:32.:48:35.

that he should be up in court as a criminal. They are not here, and you

:48:36.:48:40.

are, fielding candidates at this election. You have been banned from

:48:41.:48:44.

teaching... I have not. You still teach karate, should you? Of course

:48:45.:48:53.

I should. After you chased three children and slashed tyres with a

:48:54.:48:56.

knife? I have recommendations from people that come to my club. I teach

:48:57.:49:02.

children and have international champions that train from my club,

:49:03.:49:05.

nobody has a problem. Let's move away from your character and onto

:49:06.:49:09.

policies. You want to offer repatriating grants to encourage

:49:10.:49:12.

people for dissent to leave the country? We believe Britain is full.

:49:13.:49:17.

Who would be eligible? There are enough people in Great Britain now.

:49:18.:49:22.

I have taken my other guests through specific policies, who would be

:49:23.:49:26.

eligible? There are far too many people in our country at this point

:49:27.:49:30.

in time. There is enough... The infrastructure can't deal with the

:49:31.:49:33.

amount of people coming in and we need to make sure that they... How

:49:34.:49:39.

would you do it? What the Government should have done, consecutive

:49:40.:49:41.

governments beforehand, they should have done a feasibility study to

:49:42.:49:48.

find out how many people are needed in infrastructure, schools,

:49:49.:49:52.

hospitals, emergency departments. Sure, I take your broad point, that

:49:53.:49:58.

you feel hospitals, schools, they are under pressure. But what I am

:49:59.:50:02.

asking you, you are wanting to offer repatriating grants to encourage

:50:03.:50:06.

people of foreign descent to go back, in your words, to the country

:50:07.:50:10.

you think they came from. Who would be eligible for the grant? I have

:50:11.:50:16.

spoken to parents recently on the school gates and they are really

:50:17.:50:21.

concerned about the amount of people that are being allowed to come in...

:50:22.:50:24.

Are you just offering simple solutions that don't add up to a row

:50:25.:50:29.

of beans? If you would be eligible? Would it just be people who were

:50:30.:50:35.

born abroad? Certainly not. Who would it be? Can you tell me? We

:50:36.:50:40.

could use some of the money that we currently spend on foreign aid, I

:50:41.:50:43.

think nobody has mentioned that one so far in the election debates. I

:50:44.:50:48.

think it is about ?13.5 billion that is being spent in foreign aid to

:50:49.:50:53.

some of the most corrupt countries. But which people do you want to

:50:54.:50:57.

leave the country? If talking about? We're not saying that we want people

:50:58.:51:03.

to leave. We are saying that we want to halt immigration... What is a

:51:04.:51:08.

repatriation grant for? We need to find out who is in this country

:51:09.:51:12.

legally and who is here illegally. Once we have done that, we can...

:51:13.:51:17.

Move on from there. You are going to pay people who are here illegally to

:51:18.:51:22.

go back to where you think they have come from? Well... We have far too

:51:23.:51:27.

many people in the country at this point in time and we need to stop

:51:28.:51:30.

it. People are suffering on the streets. I have spoke to people on

:51:31.:51:35.

the streets. I even spoke to a Jamaican lady the other day, and she

:51:36.:51:40.

is fed up of immigration. But this is one of your policy solutions.

:51:41.:51:44.

What do you say to those that claim you are a racist party? It is

:51:45.:51:48.

nonsense, it is not racist to oppose mass immigration. The Archbishop of

:51:49.:51:52.

Canterbury said himself that is not racist to oppose mass aggression.

:51:53.:51:56.

But you haven't been able to explain one of your key policies, a

:51:57.:52:00.

repatriation grant. We are not racist, it is just a label that has

:52:01.:52:04.

been put on us over the years. It is not racist to oppose mass

:52:05.:52:10.

immigration. It is a numbers game. A few years ago, Nick Griffin, the

:52:11.:52:13.

leader of the party, said we are a racist party. Is he joking? That is

:52:14.:52:19.

why he is not the leader any more. Because he was wrong? Why did he

:52:20.:52:24.

think the BNP is a racist party, his own party? I don't know what Nick

:52:25.:52:27.

Griffin thought. You say you wanted to stop the Islamisation of Britain,

:52:28.:52:34.

banning the burqa, the building of new mosques, wider focus on Muslims?

:52:35.:52:37.

We don't think Islam is compatible with our way of life, as we said rig

:52:38.:52:49.

saw recently. What about... What about British Muslims is not

:52:50.:52:53.

compatible? There are a small number of Muslims that are extremist and we

:52:54.:52:56.

think the government job is to protect the people of Great Britain,

:52:57.:53:02.

protect them in a way that is suitable for them. Do you not think

:53:03.:53:07.

there are extremists in all walks of life? Yes, but if we look at the

:53:08.:53:11.

recent events that have happened here, just down the road, somebody

:53:12.:53:16.

was mown down by a Muslim extremist. We have female genital mutilation,

:53:17.:53:21.

acid attacks, people that our gang raped. Are you an extremist?

:53:22.:53:26.

Certainly not, I am the opposite. Thank you very much.

:53:27.:53:27.

Throughout this week we'll be talking to representatives

:53:28.:53:29.

of the five main parties seeking election in Northern Ireland.

:53:30.:53:31.

We start with the smallest of the five, the Alliance Party,

:53:32.:53:34.

and its deputy leader Stephen Farry joins us live from Belfast

:53:35.:53:41.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. What would you say is a success in this

:53:42.:53:48.

election for you? In the past we have had elected MPs in Northern

:53:49.:53:51.

Ireland, our current leader, and we are hopeful to get one or two seats

:53:52.:53:57.

this time around. We are in a very confident place, we had a very good

:53:58.:54:00.

election in the recent assembly election in Northern Ireland, where

:54:01.:54:04.

we had an almost 50% increase in our vote in the space of 12 months. The

:54:05.:54:11.

main liberal cross community party in Northern Ireland, we are in a

:54:12.:54:14.

good place. The politics are in a precarious situation. In 2016, you

:54:15.:54:20.

didn't win any seats and you lost your only one, Naomi Long, who you

:54:21.:54:24.

mentioned. What are you offering this time that makes you confident

:54:25.:54:27.

that the results are going to be better? Well, we offer a clear

:54:28.:54:32.

alternative. We are not a unionist or Nationalist party. Insofar as

:54:33.:54:36.

politics in Northern Ireland can be very polarised, we are the response

:54:37.:54:39.

to that in the sense that we are offering a different type of

:54:40.:54:44.

approach, focusing on the region of northern Ireland as a whole,

:54:45.:54:47.

representation of the entire community, bringing it into the 21st

:54:48.:54:52.

century. We have a track record of success on the ground, when we have

:54:53.:54:55.

been in government in Northern Ireland in the past. And we have

:54:56.:54:59.

been in Westminster, in the past. In 2015, our vote went up, although the

:55:00.:55:04.

breaks did not fall for us in terms of winning seats. You have been

:55:05.:55:07.

critical of the Conservative Party plans for Brexit, do you accept that

:55:08.:55:10.

if they win this election they will have a mandate from the people for

:55:11.:55:15.

what you would call a hard Brexit? Well, there is a mandate from the

:55:16.:55:19.

referendum last year and, potentially, through the general

:55:20.:55:22.

election. The reality is, no matter what happens for the UK as a whole,

:55:23.:55:26.

Northern Ireland is a special case. We do have the option, the option to

:55:27.:55:33.

rejoin the European Union through a united Ireland at some stage, if

:55:34.:55:37.

that is what the people of Northern Ireland choose. We have the Good

:55:38.:55:40.

Friday agreement and Northern Ireland only works on the basis of

:55:41.:55:43.

sharing and interdependence. Brexit is about putting up new divisions

:55:44.:55:47.

and barriers. There has to be some sort of special arrangement put in

:55:48.:55:49.

place for Northern Ireland, not least because of the fact that we

:55:50.:55:53.

have a land border with the remainder of the European Union

:55:54.:55:57.

through the Republic of Ireland. As you say, that could be the focus of

:55:58.:56:01.

the Brexit negotiations, the issues you just outlined. This election

:56:02.:56:07.

takes place amid a background of uncertainty for devolved

:56:08.:56:09.

institutions. Do you think that might help your party, ironically?

:56:10.:56:13.

Certainly, people are very concerned and frustrated at the lack of

:56:14.:56:16.

progress we have seen in recent years. The issues we have fallen out

:56:17.:56:21.

over are very narrow. But the divisions between the parties are

:56:22.:56:24.

very deep. Indeed, they are very bitter. It is a real tragedy this is

:56:25.:56:29.

happening at this time. We need our own local executive to stand up for

:56:30.:56:32.

Northern Ireland, particularly with Brexit negotiations looming. There

:56:33.:56:35.

is a real desire on the half of the European Union to address the Irish

:56:36.:56:40.

issues at the forefront of the negotiations. Are you reassured by

:56:41.:56:44.

the fact that all the parties, pretty much all of them involved,

:56:45.:56:48.

have said that Northern Ireland and the border issue will be one of the

:56:49.:56:52.

first issues they will try to resolve in the Brexit negotiations?

:56:53.:56:56.

We are reassured in the sense that everybody is saying that. In

:56:57.:57:01.

practice, whenever you try to avoid this frictionless border on the

:57:02.:57:06.

island of Ireland, there is a lot of platitudes, no return to the borders

:57:07.:57:10.

of the past. Nobody to date has really spelt out how we can avoid

:57:11.:57:15.

that, when the UK leaves the customs union. There is no example anywhere

:57:16.:57:19.

else in the world where there is not a physical border and a customs

:57:20.:57:24.

frontier. We will be talking to representational the other Northern

:57:25.:57:28.

Ireland parties later this week. Now, as part of the BBC's general

:57:29.:57:31.

election coverage our very own Andrew will be interviewing

:57:32.:57:33.

a different party leader in-depth And first up is the Prime

:57:34.:57:36.

Minister, Theresa May. That's The Andrew Neil Interviews,

:57:37.:57:39.

with Theresa May, tonight We didn't have time earlier to give

:57:40.:57:49.

you the quiz. You thought you were getting away with it!

:57:50.:57:53.

What do you think is happening in this picture?

:57:54.:57:58.

Do you know what the answer is? I don't! I thought you were going to

:57:59.:58:10.

say yes. What does it look like? Is it to commemorate the signing of a

:58:11.:58:14.

deal? It looks like something out of a sci-fi film.

:58:15.:58:19.

Donald Trump was with King Salman of Saudi Arabia and President Sisi

:58:20.:58:22.

of Egypt at the ceremonial opening of the Global Centre

:58:23.:58:25.

for Combating Extremist Ideology in Riyadh, during the US President's

:58:26.:58:27.

Of course(!) What do you mean, you didn't have a clue! It looks more

:58:28.:58:40.

like a seance. The other worrying seen, waving swords around.

:58:41.:58:43.

Thanks to Theresa, Chuka, and all my guests.

:58:44.:58:45.

The One O'Clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:46.:58:48.

I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the latest

:58:49.:58:51.

election campaign news - do join me then.

:58:52.:58:54.

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