22/05/2017 Daily Politics


22/05/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by Labour's Chuka Umunna and the Conservative's Theresa Villiers to discuss social care and Jeremy Corbyn's links to the Irish republican movement.


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Transcript


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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

In the last half-hour, Theresa May U-turns on social care

:00:41.:00:44.

funding, announcing a big change to her manifesto after political

:00:45.:00:47.

opponents labelled her plan a 'dementia tax'.

:00:48.:00:50.

Labour announces it would scrap university tuition fees for students

:00:51.:00:58.

in England this year if it wins the election.

:00:59.:01:03.

The Green Party launches its manifesto for England and Wales,

:01:04.:01:08.

promising a universal basic income, a four-day working week, and a final

:01:09.:01:11.

And the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon comes under pressure over funding

:01:12.:01:17.

for the NHS in Scotland from a nurse.

:01:18.:01:20.

Come in on the middle of any day, to any ward, any A department.

:01:21.:01:27.

Come on in and see what we're up against.

:01:28.:01:36.

All that in the next hour, and with me for the whole

:01:37.:01:41.

of the programme today, the former Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa

:01:42.:01:43.

Villiers, who was also a leading Conservative campaigner for Brexit

:01:44.:01:45.

And Chuka Umunna, who was a leading light in Ed Miliband's shadow

:01:46.:01:49.

cabinet until he joined Labour's backbenches under Jeremy Corbyn.

:01:50.:01:52.

Let's kick off with the continuing fall-out from Theresa May's

:01:53.:01:59.

election manifesto, and in particular her plans

:02:00.:02:01.

for changing the way in which elderly people pay for care

:02:02.:02:04.

The Conservative manifesto promised that the state will pay these costs

:02:05.:02:14.

once an individual's assets dip below ?100,000.

:02:15.:02:17.

But the policy has come under fire from political opponents,

:02:18.:02:20.

who have variously described the plan as a 'death tax'

:02:21.:02:23.

and a 'dementia tax', because old people who need care

:02:24.:02:29.

wouldn't have their overall costs capped.

:02:30.:02:33.

Well, in the last half-an-hour Theresa May has been

:02:34.:02:35.

speaking in North Wales, where she announced her social care

:02:36.:02:37.

plans would now include consulting on a life-time cap on how much

:02:38.:02:40.

individuals would pay for their own care.

:02:41.:02:43.

So I want to make a further point clear.

:02:44.:02:47.

This manifesto says that we will come forward

:02:48.:02:52.

with a consultation paper, a Government green paper,

:02:53.:02:54.

and that consultation will include an absolute limit on the amount

:02:55.:02:58.

people have to pay for their care costs.

:02:59.:03:00.

So let me reiterate - we are proposing the right funding

:03:01.:03:12.

We will make sure nobody has to sell their family

:03:13.:03:15.

home to pay for care, we'll make sure there is an absolute

:03:16.:03:18.

limit on what people need to pay, and you will never have to go below

:03:19.:03:21.

?100,000 of your savings, so you will always have something

:03:22.:03:24.

She has folded, it took 24 hours for her to perform a miraculous U-turn

:03:25.:03:35.

on one of her key policies on how social care will be funded in the

:03:36.:03:39.

future. The Prime Minister has obviously listened to the concerns

:03:40.:03:43.

people raised and I think the introduction of a cap is a welcome

:03:44.:03:47.

clarification of this set of proposals. We do need to reform the

:03:48.:03:51.

way social care is delivered and funded. The greatest threats to our

:03:52.:03:56.

ability to safeguard people in their old age is actually a weak economy

:03:57.:03:58.

and that is what we would get if we elected

:03:59.:04:14.

Jeremy Corbyn of Prime Minister and put him in charge of Brexit

:04:15.:04:16.

negotiations. You call it a clarification, it was not a

:04:17.:04:18.

clarification, it was a complete about turn. There was no mention in

:04:19.:04:21.

the manifesto, just a couple of days ago, off their being a cap on the

:04:22.:04:24.

cost you could pay if you had over ?100,000, there was just a floor.

:04:25.:04:28.

This is a significant announcement... Was it the wrong

:04:29.:04:33.

policy in the manifesto? I think it proved with the clarification that

:04:34.:04:39.

cap will be consulted on. I think that was an important element of

:04:40.:04:43.

previous debates over social care so I welcome the announcement today and

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I believe that there will be many people out there who will also

:04:48.:04:50.

welcome it. Although it was very clear it was a break with previous

:04:51.:04:54.

stated Government policy that did say there should be a cap, and she

:04:55.:04:59.

went against that, so why has she changed her mind? Because she has

:05:00.:05:03.

listened to the concerns expressed about how the policy was set out in

:05:04.:05:15.

the manifesto she has made a significant change, which I think

:05:16.:05:17.

many people will welcome. It was called and hailed a dementia tax,

:05:18.:05:20.

which is true, it was a world of the dice, if you were unfortunate enough

:05:21.:05:23.

to get dementia in old age and at Ascot over ?100,000, you could see

:05:24.:05:26.

all a bit potentially go, if you did not get dementia but another illness

:05:27.:05:29.

treated on the NHS, even if you had valuable assets you did not pay

:05:30.:05:34.

anything? I don't think it is fair to characterise the proposals as a

:05:35.:05:38.

dementia tax. The reality is people already paid for their social

:05:39.:05:41.

care... It doesn't include their house in the calculation, does it?

:05:42.:05:47.

As I say, everything depends on a strong economy, only Theresa May and

:05:48.:05:49.

the Conservatives can deliver a strong economy and a

:05:50.:06:11.

successful Brexit. If we jeopardise that we won't be able to care for

:06:12.:06:13.

our frail elderly population. Chuka Umunna, it was not that long ago

:06:14.:06:16.

that Gordon Brown suggested a very similar policy that was dubbed a

:06:17.:06:19.

death tax, you may say very unfairly by the Conservatives at the time,

:06:20.:06:21.

with a maximum of ?20,000 paid after a person died to pay for the social

:06:22.:06:24.

care a person may have used when they were alive, so what was the

:06:25.:06:27.

problem? At the problem with this was there was no cap, as under the

:06:28.:06:29.

original plans. I'm sorry, this idea that somehow the Conservatives,

:06:30.:06:32.

people have sat in the Conservative cabinet since 2010, have been good

:06:33.:06:35.

for social care, Theresa, what you have done for social care in my area

:06:36.:06:40.

is absolutely criminal. What has happened is they have heavily,

:06:41.:06:45.

heavily cut the budget of local authorities, which has meant in turn

:06:46.:06:47.

they have not been able to provide the social care we need. That has

:06:48.:06:51.

had a knock-on effect on the NHS because it meant more older people

:06:52.:06:55.

going to A and when they go into hospital less likely to come out

:06:56.:06:59.

because there is nowhere for them to go afterwards,

:07:00.:07:10.

that is the reality of what you have done since 2010 and the only way we

:07:11.:07:14.

can resolve this, first of all decent integrated care for elderly

:07:15.:07:16.

people which looks after their mental, physical and social needs

:07:17.:07:19.

together, and we all have to make a contribution, but the idea that you

:07:20.:07:21.

dump the entire burden of setting out your social care with the

:07:22.:07:23.

families concerned without the rest of society playing a role, that is

:07:24.:07:27.

what your proposal originally was going to do, and this strong and

:07:28.:07:31.

stable Government... Let Theresa answer because that was the reality,

:07:32.:07:35.

that it was an inheritance tax, I think Ukip dubbed it a Conservative

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death tax, an inheritance tax on anything over ?100,000? The reality

:07:43.:07:45.

is people already contribute to the cost of their social care, that is

:07:46.:07:50.

not changing as a result of the proposals in the Conservative

:07:51.:07:52.

manifesto. But there was not a cap will stop one of the key reasons for

:07:53.:07:57.

the pressure on social care is we are an ageing society. Theresa May

:07:58.:08:01.

will take tough decisions to put that funding on a sustainable basis.

:08:02.:08:07.

You have taken away the funding. What is crucial to doing that is a

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strong economy which we will not get if Jeremy Corbyn is Prime Minister

:08:12.:08:14.

and in charge of Brexit negotiations. You must ring one of

:08:15.:08:19.

the MPs who voted no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn... Theresa bilious, we

:08:20.:08:23.

are talking about the social care policy. Let me tell you something, I

:08:24.:08:28.

always have far more confident in my Labour Party than your Tory party.

:08:29.:08:32.

What is the cap that Labour would put in, because it is not clear from

:08:33.:08:36.

your manifesto? It is true that Theresa May

:08:37.:08:49.

has now said she has changed her mind, there will be a lifetime cap

:08:50.:08:54.

on costs, but what is the cap in the Labour manifesto? There is no cap in

:08:55.:08:56.

the Labour manifesto because we would do this differently. We would

:08:57.:08:59.

put more money in social care... If you look at the social care policy

:09:00.:09:02.

in the Labour manifesto, you would also have a floor and a cap, so in

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that sense it is the same. I don't know what the cap is but the

:09:06.:09:08.

difference is, would we take away the funding from local authorities

:09:09.:09:09.

which provide social care for people? How much money would you put

:09:10.:09:13.

back into local authorities? One thing I would agree with Theresa on

:09:14.:09:18.

is we have a different economic policy and basically wouldn't

:09:19.:09:21.

massacre public services. Look at Lambeth, where I have been

:09:22.:09:25.

representing, it will mean our local authority will have decent funding

:09:26.:09:29.

to provide the care elderly people in my community need, that would be

:09:30.:09:32.

ripped away under the Conservatives and we see a role for society,

:09:33.:09:36.

family, all of us playing our part rather than having the entire burden

:09:37.:09:41.

sitting with their family. I know you don't know an exact cap, that is

:09:42.:09:45.

fine, we now know Theresa May hasn't said what the cap would be, but it

:09:46.:09:49.

does say in the Labour manifesto, we would seek consensus on a

:09:50.:09:52.

cross-party basis about how social care should be funded with options

:09:53.:09:57.

including wealth taxes, employer care contribution or a new social

:09:58.:10:01.

care levy, so you are looking at the same options that Theresa May has

:10:02.:10:06.

now clarified, to use your words? Well, we don't quite know what she

:10:07.:10:11.

is proposing. What would you prefer out of the Labour manifesto? We are

:10:12.:10:16.

looking at a range of options, I like the proposals put forward by

:10:17.:10:19.

Andrew Deal not, who tried to come up with a cross-party solution on

:10:20.:10:25.

this. Ultimately, one Government would be able to make a decision on

:10:26.:10:29.

the future of social care, it will be a multiple Government thing which

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is why we need to build a consensus on it. Let's go back to the issue of

:10:33.:10:38.

leadership, the point is there is nothing strong or stable about the

:10:39.:10:41.

leadership that Theresa May has shown when it has come to this

:10:42.:10:45.

social care policy, because it looked like it was hurting their

:10:46.:10:48.

election prospects, she has changed the policy, a U-turn. I would not

:10:49.:10:57.

characterise it like that at all. She is the right person to be Prime

:10:58.:11:00.

Minister and lead Brexit negotiations. If she was so strong,

:11:01.:11:04.

why has she felt the need to change the policy? Because she has listen

:11:05.:11:07.

to concerns that people have expressed over the weekend, it is

:11:08.:11:12.

right that she does that, Prime Minister is entitled to listen to

:11:13.:11:16.

concerns expressed about policy. And all of the stress and worry they

:11:17.:11:20.

have caused older people. People have a choice, on the 9th of

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June, do they want Jeremy Corbyn standing on the steps of Downing

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Street, or Theresa May? 11 days after that we start Brexit

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negotiations... I know you want to talk about Brexit but this is a big

:11:42.:11:43.

policy change that has been announced today. Let's see how it is

:11:44.:11:45.

playing with voters. Adam has taken the Daily Politics

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moodbox to Birmingham. Adam, what's the moodbox

:11:46.:11:48.

question today? Greetings from a slightly breezy

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Birmingham, I apologise if you can hear any dreading or dilling. The

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question is, before the Prime Minister did her speech today, is

:12:00.:12:03.

which party leader do you trust to sort out the issue of adult social

:12:04.:12:07.

care, is it Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn? Worth remembering Jeremy

:12:08.:12:12.

Corbyn's policy proposal is an extra 8 billion on social care by the end

:12:13.:12:17.

of the next parliament and in the longer term to set up this social

:12:18.:12:20.

care policy. Here is what the brumbies had to say about the issue.

:12:21.:12:27.

-- what the Brummies had to say. Do you care about the issue

:12:28.:12:29.

of care for the elderly? But you wouldn't need it

:12:30.:12:32.

for about another 60 years? Which party leader do

:12:33.:12:37.

you trust to look after Because, like, the Labour manifesto,

:12:38.:12:40.

it's laid out well, it's costed well and it's done in a way that reflects

:12:41.:12:46.

nicely on most of society and gives older people and young

:12:47.:12:50.

people both a chance. Unlike the Tories, that

:12:51.:12:52.

have their weird death tax thing, Have you been sent

:12:53.:12:54.

here by Labour HQ? What do you think about their plans

:12:55.:12:57.

for the whole ?100,000, including a house in the means

:12:58.:13:00.

test for care? But, at the end of the day,

:13:01.:13:03.

we've got a purse within which we have to live

:13:04.:13:10.

in, and we have to cut There's not endless

:13:11.:13:12.

amounts of money. Yes, it's going to

:13:13.:13:15.

disadvantage some people. But, ultimately, as a society,

:13:16.:13:16.

I think we have to get Which party leader do you trust

:13:17.:13:19.

to look after your grandparents Care for older people,

:13:20.:13:23.

the massive story at the moment. Some people are calling

:13:24.:13:31.

it the dementia tax, Well, I don't think

:13:32.:13:33.

they're going to... I don't think it'll

:13:34.:13:39.

happen at all, really. I've got friends that work

:13:40.:13:44.

in adult social care, We tried to get care for somebody

:13:45.:13:48.

in my family and it hasn't really worked out because of the cuts

:13:49.:13:53.

that we've had. Do you think this is going to affect

:13:54.:13:55.

the outcome of the election? You can see there's

:13:56.:13:58.

a swing towards Labour. But I don't think it will be big

:13:59.:14:04.

enough to beat the Conservatives. When it really comes down to it,

:14:05.:14:07.

I think a lot of people have an altruistic view,

:14:08.:14:25.

except when they have Who do you trust to sort out

:14:26.:14:27.

care for the elderly? Because I don't trust

:14:28.:14:31.

a Conservative. Because I think he's

:14:32.:14:35.

a more genuine guy. This whole issue about care

:14:36.:14:39.

for older people, has it What did you think of

:14:40.:14:41.

the system that was in place? Do you think it'll ever

:14:42.:14:49.

get fixed, the system, Well, it's totally unscientific,

:14:50.:14:52.

but it looks as if a big majority of people think Jeremy Corbyn

:14:53.:14:59.

is the person who can sort out Thank you, Adam. Unscientific, but

:15:00.:15:15.

anecdotally, Corbyn on the side of the elderly and the Tories and

:15:16.:15:19.

Theresa May not. Was it just too complacent to bring out a proposal

:15:20.:15:24.

like the social care one that was half baked? Well, the motivation

:15:25.:15:28.

behind the proposal was too but social care on a sustainable

:15:29.:15:32.

financial basis. -- to put social care on a sustainable financial

:15:33.:15:36.

basis. This is a real contest, it is not easy to predict the outcome of

:15:37.:15:40.

the election. Was it complacent? Should she not have put out a policy

:15:41.:15:46.

that was going to be controversial at the least, brave at best? What

:15:47.:15:50.

people should draw from this is that the protest vote for Labour or the

:15:51.:15:54.

Lib Dems involves a real risk that Jeremy Corbyn will be our Prime

:15:55.:15:57.

Minister. Did it help that your party didn't come clean about which

:15:58.:16:02.

pensioners would be affected by means testing the winter fuel

:16:03.:16:10.

allowance? I don't think... That is obviously an issue that we will need

:16:11.:16:14.

to address as part of a consultation on how to implement these proposals,

:16:15.:16:19.

if we are re-elected. That consultation will look at the level

:16:20.:16:22.

at which arrangements on the winter fuel payments are correlated. You

:16:23.:16:29.

say this so casually. More than 7000 older people in the constituency I

:16:30.:16:34.

have been representing since 2010, about 72% of older people could be

:16:35.:16:37.

affected by what you are talking about. You're just casually talking

:16:38.:16:42.

about these things, oh, well, we can sort it. Why should wealthy

:16:43.:16:49.

pensioners get those allowances? Hang on... Well, answer that

:16:50.:16:53.

question. I'm answering the question. If you look at what Labour

:16:54.:16:58.

had been proposing in the last general election, yes, more wealthy

:16:59.:17:02.

pensioners will be affected by this. You are talking about 72% of old age

:17:03.:17:06.

pensioners that receive the winter fuel allowance. Hang on, they

:17:07.:17:10.

haven't put a limit. What should it be said at? Until you put a limit,

:17:11.:17:15.

or say where the means test is going to fall, a bit like the social care

:17:16.:17:19.

policy, people will think it is going to affect them. In due course,

:17:20.:17:25.

if we are re-elected, we will set out a threshold. Should it have been

:17:26.:17:30.

done in the manifesto? You know, it's not a decision that was taken

:17:31.:17:34.

easily. But the reality is that we need, in an era where resources are

:17:35.:17:41.

limited by the deficit, that we inherited in 2010, we need to make

:17:42.:17:47.

sure that we spend taxpayer money... Are you really blaming Labour for

:17:48.:17:51.

something that happened in 2010? We left government seven years ago, and

:17:52.:17:55.

your mug has borrowed more in that seven years than the Labour

:17:56.:17:59.

Government did in 13 years. You were proposing the same bringing down of

:18:00.:18:03.

the deficit as happened under the Conservatives and coalition? We

:18:04.:18:06.

would have achieved our target. Well, we won't know, of course.

:18:07.:18:10.

Vicki Young is where the Prime Minister was giving his speech. How

:18:11.:18:13.

has it gone down, the big change and you turn on social care policy, not

:18:14.:18:18.

just a floor of ?100,000 in care costs, but now there is going to be

:18:19.:18:24.

a cap? Yes, pretty incredible stuff. Just four days after the

:18:25.:18:29.

Conservative manifesto was launched, Theresa May is urging us to look at

:18:30.:18:33.

page 65. She says there is no change, well, that is not the way I

:18:34.:18:38.

see it. If you look here, you can see in this document that they talk

:18:39.:18:40.

about the fact your house will be taken into account, they talk about

:18:41.:18:44.

deferred payments, they talk about the fact you will be able to keep

:18:45.:18:49.

?100,000, ultimately. No mention of a cap. That is such a fundamental

:18:50.:18:58.

part of this kind of policy. It is not like work has not been done on

:18:59.:19:00.

this. There have been numerous reports into social care and the way

:19:01.:19:03.

that you can fund it in a different way. Caps have been talked about,

:19:04.:19:06.

David Cameron was due to bring in a cap of ?72,000 in 2020. No mention

:19:07.:19:12.

of that in this document. Theresa May, insisting nothing has changed,

:19:13.:19:15.

the principal stay the same and she is going to tackle the issue of

:19:16.:19:18.

social care, because everybody agrees more money needs to go in the

:19:19.:19:22.

system. Instead, she has accused Jeremy Corbyn and Labour of

:19:23.:19:26.

spreading fake claims, fear and scaremongering over people losing

:19:27.:19:29.

their homes. Everybody is free to read this document, everybody will

:19:30.:19:32.

look at that and see that there was no mention of a cap. The fact that

:19:33.:19:38.

yesterday Damian Green, her pension secretary, said there would be no

:19:39.:19:41.

rowing back from these proposals, that they had been decided. Was the

:19:42.:19:45.

fact that she hadn't really consulted many of her ministers a

:19:46.:19:49.

problem, in terms of putting out what her critics have called a half

:19:50.:19:53.

baked policy that ended up looking like a dementia tax? Yes, that is

:19:54.:19:59.

the criticism from some in the party, that she has very close

:20:00.:20:02.

advisers, that she relies on them too heavily, rather than talking to

:20:03.:20:09.

some Cabinet ministers around her. Damian Green not just saying there

:20:10.:20:13.

would be no rowing back, he criticised the idea of a cap. What

:20:14.:20:17.

she is saying, although I have to say, she sounded very rattled, she

:20:18.:20:21.

sounded under pressure and she does not usually. She has made such a big

:20:22.:20:26.

deal in this campaign about being strong, stable, any kind of U-turn

:20:27.:20:29.

or significant change like this is going to be absolutely seized upon

:20:30.:20:33.

by her opponents. She will say it is all about taking tough decisions and

:20:34.:20:38.

she will say she has been willing to tackle an issue many others have not

:20:39.:20:45.

been willing to do. Thank you. I am joined by two top-notch political

:20:46.:20:46.

journalists. correspondent for the Telegraph,

:20:47.:20:53.

and Jim Waterson, political editor We have been looking for campaign

:20:54.:21:02.

drama for a while. Now we have a screeching U-turn from Theresa May.

:21:03.:21:06.

I don't think she expected this. Talking to Tory MPs, they were

:21:07.:21:09.

saying on the doorstep that this was actually coming up. They are a bit

:21:10.:21:13.

rattled. The text messages I have been getting from people in marginal

:21:14.:21:16.

seats, we are confident we are going to destroy Jeremy Corbyn, take seats

:21:17.:21:20.

we have never taken before, suddenly there were dealing with pensioners

:21:21.:21:23.

that were really concerned. People didn't necessarily know what the

:21:24.:21:26.

policy was, they didn't like what they heard about it. They didn't

:21:27.:21:29.

know the details, but they didn't like the idea that somebody was

:21:30.:21:32.

going to get hold of their house and it was not going to be their kids.

:21:33.:21:37.

Presumably, it was because they made a link between tightening the polls

:21:38.:21:40.

over the weekend at the announcement of this policy on Thursday? Yes. It

:21:41.:21:45.

was not a good weekend for the Tories. Everybody has been boasting

:21:46.:21:56.

about how well they are doing, but this week we saw, over the weekend,

:21:57.:21:59.

that they only have a 9-point lead. That's the first time it has been a

:22:00.:22:01.

single number since Theresa May announced the snap poll. I think

:22:02.:22:04.

they got pretty nervous. We will always expecting a bit of a wobble

:22:05.:22:07.

at some point. I think a lot of candidates were thinking like

:22:08.:22:09.

Theresa May was being a bit cocky. They knew they were doing well, they

:22:10.:22:12.

kind of thought, let's go for it, let's go out there. All of the polls

:22:13.:22:14.

over the weekend, specifically on the dementia tax, as shown it is

:22:15.:22:18.

unpopular and Labour are doing better. They have the key message

:22:19.:22:21.

out there. They have used the phrase dementia tax and it has been

:22:22.:22:29.

incredibly damaging. If we look at other issues, Jeremy Corbyn came

:22:30.:22:31.

under fire over the weekend for his association with the IRA and he

:22:32.:22:35.

refused to condemn IRA bombing without equating to other parties.

:22:36.:22:38.

Does his position on Security and defence negatively impact on the

:22:39.:22:44.

retail offers that Labour was making? There are problems,

:22:45.:22:46.

certainly in the seats where they are fighting with the Tories, the

:22:47.:22:51.

Midlands and the North. While the interesting things with the IRA and

:22:52.:22:53.

Jeremy Corbyn is the way the has developed. If you are under 40,

:22:54.:22:59.

perhaps you associate the IRA and things like that more with the Good

:23:00.:23:02.

Friday agreement and the peace process, so it is less of a toxic

:23:03.:23:06.

association. For a lot of older voters, the sort of people the

:23:07.:23:08.

Conservatives need to get onside, that is where it hits home.

:23:09.:23:11.

Depending on the generational gap, it is behaving slightly differently.

:23:12.:23:18.

What about Labour's university tuition fees policy. How popular is

:23:19.:23:23.

that? I think it will be very popular. Labour are clearly

:23:24.:23:26.

targeting the younger generation. That is where Mr Corbyn's supporters

:23:27.:23:30.

are from, mainly. They are saying they're going to scrap them

:23:31.:23:33.

entirely, from September there will be scrapped so that students do not

:23:34.:23:37.

deferred. It is going to be popular with young people and we know that

:23:38.:23:40.

young people are who Jeremy Corbyn is targeting. But do they vote? Good

:23:41.:23:47.

question. Today is the final day to get people to register to vote, and

:23:48.:23:50.

there is a reason why they announced today. Normally, people are going to

:23:51.:23:58.

benefit in the next generation. Now you can say, vote Labour, get your

:23:59.:24:01.

education for free. This was supposed to be the Brexit election,

:24:02.:24:05.

as Theresa May build it, she returned to that theme today, no

:24:06.:24:09.

doubt to distract from the change on social care policy. She was the one

:24:10.:24:14.

that decided to make it about public services, to a large extent. Is her

:24:15.:24:18.

decision broadly parking her tanks and Labour's lawn, backfiring? Well,

:24:19.:24:25.

Labour is gaining in the polls. The Tories still have a massive lead.

:24:26.:24:31.

There are a lot of issues around the campaign, polls tend to swing back

:24:32.:24:36.

to the government. It's hard to argue that Jeremy Corbyn has not had

:24:37.:24:40.

a surprisingly good campaign in the eyes of a lot of people, but still

:24:41.:24:44.

has a long way to make up. Theresa May would be much happier if this

:24:45.:24:48.

was all about Jeremy Corbyn, and about Brexit, than things like

:24:49.:24:51.

social care. That is what we are seeing today. Thank you to both of

:24:52.:24:53.

you. Now, as we've just been hearing,

:24:54.:24:58.

Jeremy Corbyn's attitude to the IRA So when it comes to the Labour

:24:59.:25:01.

leader and other members of his inner circle,

:25:02.:25:05.

what exactly is their record As a backbencher in the 1980s,

:25:06.:25:07.

Mr Corbyn was criticised for his activities with the controversial

:25:08.:25:13.

Troops Out movement, which campaigned to end British

:25:14.:25:15.

military involvement in Northern He's also been questioned

:25:16.:25:17.

about his links to a magazine called London Labour Briefing,

:25:18.:25:20.

which in 1984 published an article celebrating

:25:21.:25:22.

the IRA's Brighton bombing, In the 1980s, during some

:25:23.:25:24.

of the most violent years of the Troubles, Mr Corbyn

:25:25.:25:32.

and the current Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell

:25:33.:25:34.

met the IRA on a number They said the meetings

:25:35.:25:36.

were part of their attempt The IRA declared

:25:37.:25:42.

a ceasefire in 1994. Diane Abbott, now Shadow Home

:25:43.:25:46.

Secretary, has been criticised for comments she made in a 1984

:25:47.:25:48.

interview, when she proclaimed "Every defeat

:25:49.:25:51.

of the British state... Then, in 2003, John McDonnell

:25:52.:25:53.

praised the "bombs and bullets...that brought Britain

:25:54.:26:02.

to the negotiating table," comments Well, yesterday Mr Corbyn was asked

:26:03.:26:04.

again about the IRA, and refused five times to condemn

:26:05.:26:09.

them specifically for their role in the Troubles, saying only that

:26:10.:26:12.

"all bombing is wrong". Let's hear a section

:26:13.:26:16.

of that interview. Do you condemn

:26:17.:26:18.

unequivocally the IRA? But you condemned

:26:19.:26:21.

all bombing, there. Can you condemn the IRA

:26:22.:26:28.

without equating it to... No, I think what you have to say

:26:29.:26:33.

is that all bombing has to be condemned and you have to bring

:26:34.:26:36.

about a peace process... Wait a minute, can you

:26:37.:26:38.

let me finish, please? In the 1980s, Britain was looking

:26:39.:26:42.

for a military solution in Ireland. Ask anyone in the British

:26:43.:26:45.

Army at that time. Therefore, you have

:26:46.:26:49.

to seek a peace process. You condemn the violence of those

:26:50.:26:53.

that laid bombs that killed large numbers of innocent people,

:26:54.:26:56.

and I do. So can you condemn the IRA,

:26:57.:27:00.

who were responsible... I've just condemned all those

:27:01.:27:02.

that did bombing... If you let me finish

:27:03.:27:05.

as well, after I've just... Chuka Umunna, your leader had five

:27:06.:27:19.

opportunities in that interview to condemn the IRA specifically and he

:27:20.:27:21.

refused to do so. Was that a mistake? Anybody watching the clip

:27:22.:27:27.

will have seen him condemn the IRA and all bombing. I am very clear,

:27:28.:27:32.

unequivocally, the bombing and all of the violence which they brought

:27:33.:27:38.

upon the whole of the UK is totally, totally awful and an acceptable. I

:27:39.:27:43.

think that is basically what he said, whilst also talking about the

:27:44.:27:46.

loyalists and what others did. The problem some people might have, and

:27:47.:27:50.

I'm not saying everybody, some people might have, is his inability,

:27:51.:27:55.

his seeming inability to condemn the IRA. Saying all bombing is wrong,

:27:56.:27:58.

well, everybody would say all bombing is wrong. If you can't

:27:59.:28:03.

condemn the IRA... Do you really think Jeremy Corbyn is somebody who

:28:04.:28:06.

wanted to see death and destruction in Northern Ireland? Are you going

:28:07.:28:09.

to buy the front of the Daily Mail today, Tory supporting papers, the

:28:10.:28:12.

Telegraph, or take at face value what he said? Would it have been

:28:13.:28:18.

easier for him to then, and this was not an interview from years ago,

:28:19.:28:21.

this is yesterday, what was preventing him just saying yes, I

:28:22.:28:26.

condemn the IRA bombing. You will have to ask him that question. But

:28:27.:28:32.

he is the leader of the Labour Party. If you want to talk about the

:28:33.:28:35.

Labour Party in Northern Ireland, I am extremely proud of the record of

:28:36.:28:38.

the last Labour government are helping to bring about peace. And

:28:39.:28:44.

John Major as well. But he was not in that government. I was six when

:28:45.:28:52.

these things were said. You are a young man, but might it be a problem

:28:53.:28:57.

for some voters to listen to an interview like that, Jeremy Corbyn

:28:58.:29:00.

was not part of the government that you were talking about, under Tony

:29:01.:29:03.

Blair, that dealt with the peace process. Is it difficult to sell, as

:29:04.:29:08.

I asked the journalist before, Labour's off on the doorstep if

:29:09.:29:11.

people have reservations about what they might feel is biased towards

:29:12.:29:18.

one side or the other about Northern Ireland, bearing in mind that this

:29:19.:29:21.

man wants to be the next Prime Minister? If you're talking about

:29:22.:29:24.

being biased towards one side or the other, he condemned the IRA and the

:29:25.:29:27.

loyalists. Do you have an issue with the fact that when he was condemn

:29:28.:29:31.

any IRA, he also condemned the loyalists? If that is a big issue

:29:32.:29:34.

for you, that he would not condemn the IRA on its own, I am not sure

:29:35.:29:39.

that for most people this is an issue. I have been on the doorstep,

:29:40.:29:43.

not just my own constituency, but in Birmingham... He was condemning the

:29:44.:29:47.

British Army as well? The issue, which has been known about for a

:29:48.:29:51.

long time, was not brought up. Was this not the point, it is just a

:29:52.:29:54.

convenient weapon with which to attack Jeremy Corbyn? For his past

:29:55.:30:00.

associations with the organisation, with the IRA, to distract from what

:30:01.:30:04.

is actually going on in this election? That is not what is

:30:05.:30:08.

happening here. I met many victims of IRA violence. There will be upset

:30:09.:30:13.

and distressed by the fact that someone is holding himself out as

:30:14.:30:18.

our next Prime Minister, potentially, and will not

:30:19.:30:21.

unequivocally condemn... He condemned all bombing. Didn't he?

:30:22.:30:24.

What is wrong with that? He condemned both sides. Isn't that

:30:25.:30:28.

what you want? Somebody who is impartial, prepared to condemn

:30:29.:30:30.

wrongdoing on both sides? Maybe it wouldn't be such a big

:30:31.:30:41.

problem if he didn't have this track record on these matters and his

:30:42.:30:45.

Shadow Chancellor praised the bombs and bullets of the IRA and yet

:30:46.:30:50.

people are being asked on the 8th of June to trust these people with the

:30:51.:30:54.

security of our nation. Remember Jeremy Corbyn also refers to groups

:30:55.:30:59.

like Hamas and has bomber as his friends. Well, he has said that

:31:00.:31:05.

wasn't the case, even if he used the word Brenkley he was talking more

:31:06.:31:11.

generally about people that were at conferences in the past, not

:31:12.:31:15.

specifically members of Hamas. But, again, Chuka, doesn't it make your

:31:16.:31:20.

job much, much harder if this issue is going to come up time and time

:31:21.:31:25.

again and people are unsure about where Jeremy Corbyn stands? It gets

:31:26.:31:30.

raised time and again in the Telegraph and other Conservative

:31:31.:31:35.

supporting newspapers but people on the doorstep are not asking about

:31:36.:31:39.

the IRA, they are talking about the dementia tax, tuition fees, they

:31:40.:31:43.

like the tuition fees proposals, they have asked about the public

:31:44.:31:46.

sector pay cap which we will abolish, they ask us about many

:31:47.:31:50.

other things. I haven't had anybody bringing up the IRA on the doorstep

:31:51.:31:54.

and that is not just in my constituency but several other

:31:55.:32:00.

regions as well. If Jeremy Corbyn is Prime Minister, you will have to

:32:01.:32:03.

deal with the British military, he will have to deal with policies in

:32:04.:32:12.

Northern Ireland. On the basis of what Theresa de Villiers said, how

:32:13.:32:15.

difficult will that be with his track record? As I said, you ass

:32:16.:32:17.

with a question, I answered it, it is not an issue on the doorstep. But

:32:18.:32:21.

if he became Prime Minister, how difficult would it be in his

:32:22.:32:23.

dealings with the British military, for example? I think the British

:32:24.:32:31.

military will work with whoever is elected, that is why we have an

:32:32.:32:34.

impartial civil service and an impasse or set of Armed Forces, that

:32:35.:32:38.

is how it should be. Are you not making much more of this, Theresa de

:32:39.:32:43.

Villiers, for party political purposes. Jeremy Corbyn and John

:32:44.:32:49.

McDonnell had meetings with the IRA in the 1980s, perhaps that was

:32:50.:32:52.

far-sighted, we now know that the British Government did it but in

:32:53.:32:55.

secret, so perhaps it made perfect sense because it led to peace?

:32:56.:33:00.

Jeremy Corbyn has a 30 year track record of voting against measures to

:33:01.:33:04.

protect security. When he was asked by a journalist, would he think it

:33:05.:33:07.

was correct for a police officer faced with a gun-wielding terrorist

:33:08.:33:13.

to fire at that terrorist, he wouldn't even support a police

:33:14.:33:18.

officer. He is not capable of dealing in a responsible way with

:33:19.:33:22.

our security service. That is not actually true, if you watch the

:33:23.:33:25.

interview that I think you are referring to with Laura Kuenssberg

:33:26.:33:29.

Cobbe said, if you are going to have police officers using lethal force

:33:30.:33:32.

then there has to be a reference to a set of rules and guidelines under

:33:33.:33:36.

which they do it. Your interpretation there is a deliberate

:33:37.:33:40.

untruths, I would argue. The question that I put to you is, what

:33:41.:33:44.

is wrong with talking to armed dissidents, what is wrong with

:33:45.:33:53.

talking to people that you want to get around the negotiating table?

:33:54.:33:55.

That is what the British Government did so what is the difference? It is

:33:56.:33:58.

clear the IRA and Sinn Fein were not allowed to be included in formal

:33:59.:34:02.

peace talks until they adopted the Mitchell rules and agreed not to

:34:03.:34:07.

resort to violence but the key thing here is who is going to be the Prime

:34:08.:34:11.

Minister who will face got our security? Theresa May have a track

:34:12.:34:16.

record of Home Secretary, one of the most successful in history, the

:34:17.:34:20.

choice is between her keeping our country save or vesting this in the

:34:21.:34:25.

incapable hands of Jeremy Corbyn. The Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams,

:34:26.:34:30.

at the manifesto launch of Sinn Fein, has defended the Labour

:34:31.:34:33.

leader, defended Jeremy Corbyn, following the row that we have been

:34:34.:34:41.

talking about, and that that Mr Corbyn was on the right side of

:34:42.:34:43.

history. If that helpful to the Labour campaign? I don't think

:34:44.:34:47.

people will be seeking the advice of Gerry Adams or anyone else in my

:34:48.:34:52.

constituency as to how they vote. In the end they will look at the

:34:53.:34:55.

policies being offered by the Labour Party, they are popular policies and

:34:56.:34:59.

they will make a judgment. Because this is a difficult area? In the

:35:00.:35:04.

end, when we look at the history of Northern Ireland over the last few

:35:05.:35:08.

decades and much longer, should the Conservative Party be seeking to

:35:09.:35:11.

play party politics in the middle of a general election with this issue

:35:12.:35:20.

when we have seen so many people on both sides lose their lives?

:35:21.:35:22.

Personally I think it is rather distasteful and I don't think they

:35:23.:35:25.

should be doing this. Let's leave it there.

:35:26.:35:25.

Let's get a round-up of all the rest of the election campaign

:35:26.:35:28.

The sun is shining, it is nice and warm but we don't have time for that

:35:29.:35:33.

because there are only 17 campaigning days left of the

:35:34.:35:36.

selection. Another couple of manifestos today but another more

:35:37.:35:39.

urgent deadline looming, the deadline to register to vote, that

:35:40.:35:43.

is at one minute to midnight tonight to do so if you have not done so

:35:44.:35:47.

already, so quick, hurry up! Here is Norman.

:35:48.:35:52.

It is something our ancestors fought and died for, fundamental to our

:35:53.:35:58.

democracy, in the mother of all parliaments, the right to vote. But

:35:59.:36:04.

if that is not reason enough, there is always free beer. Pubs across the

:36:05.:36:08.

country are offering free pints to young people who have registered to

:36:09.:36:11.

vote ahead of the deadline tonight. Here is one user who has taken

:36:12.:36:15.

advantage. Labour board their manifesto was so good that they

:36:16.:36:19.

launched it twice. The Tories did it in a warehouse. The Lib Dems stood

:36:20.:36:24.

on some flags. Today it was the turn of greens, here, unveiling their

:36:25.:36:28.

plans for a softer Brexit. Vote Green for a competent and caring

:36:29.:36:34.

Britain. The Lib Dem leader Tim Farron was trying to up the anti on

:36:35.:36:38.

being anti-Tory plans for social care funding suggesting it would

:36:39.:36:42.

affect nine in ten English homes. This is a devastating death tax

:36:43.:36:47.

trumped up on the back of an envelope. It is not often Ukip agree

:36:48.:36:51.

with the Lib Dems on anything. Funnily enough Patrick O'Flynn did

:36:52.:36:55.

not mention the pledge by another Ukip candidate that he would push

:36:56.:36:59.

for asteroid belt mining and a spaceship capable of interstellar

:37:00.:37:03.

travel if he was elected. Do you want housing? Do you want care? They

:37:04.:37:08.

were there to see the libertines, they got this rock star instead. We

:37:09.:37:13.

can achieve it together! Thank you very much!

:37:14.:37:18.

CROWD CHANTS. Whatever happens on June the 8th,

:37:19.:37:22.

there is always Glastonbury. Something to look forward to.

:37:23.:37:24.

And I'll be talking to the Green Party leader

:37:25.:37:26.

Caroline Lucas about her party's manifesto on the programme tomorrow.

:37:27.:37:29.

Now, last night the first Scottish television debate

:37:30.:37:31.

The six party leaders clashed on big issues such as Brexit

:37:32.:37:35.

But it was the question of funding for the NHS that provoked

:37:36.:37:39.

the most fiery exchange, when one member of the audience -

:37:40.:37:42.

a nurse - criticised the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon over

:37:43.:37:44.

We have not heard from Jeremy Corbyn...

:37:45.:37:50.

How do you expect somebody to live on that?

:37:51.:38:08.

Do you think that's what nurses go into nursing for?

:38:09.:38:12.

I'm telling you now, I would rather leave nursing

:38:13.:38:17.

as would many more of my colleagues, than have to strike.

:38:18.:38:20.

You have no idea how demoralising it is to work within the NHS.

:38:21.:38:25.

Don't come on your announced visit, come in on the middle of any

:38:26.:38:30.

day, into any ward, any A department.

:38:31.:38:32.

My sister works in the National Health Service.

:38:33.:38:43.

Believe me, she tells me exactly what she thinks about those matters.

:38:44.:38:51.

If you listen to me, I'm actually agreeing with you.

:38:52.:38:54.

We've had a really difficult period with public spending.

:38:55.:38:56.

We've also, in Scotland, unlike in the rest of the UK,

:38:57.:39:00.

had a policy of no compulsory redundancies in the NHS

:39:01.:39:04.

and the wider public sector to try to protect jobs.

:39:05.:39:13.

I'm joined now by the SNP's Drew Hendry, who is in Inverness for us.

:39:14.:39:19.

Do you have some sympathy with the nurse who was in the audience in

:39:20.:39:26.

that debate? I think, as you heard Nicola Sturgeon saying, she agreed

:39:27.:39:29.

that because of rising inflation, because of the austerity policies

:39:30.:39:34.

that the Tories have been wedded to across the UK, there is

:39:35.:39:38.

unsustainable pressure now on the cost of living, and that

:39:39.:39:44.

inflationary process means that there are already meetings in the

:39:45.:39:48.

staff side of the NHS to look at the issues and Nicola Sturgeon said she

:39:49.:39:53.

was looking to remove that. She is open to looking at it, should nurses

:39:54.:39:57.

be paid more in Scotland or not? Nurses are being paid more in

:39:58.:40:02.

Scotland, ?300 per year roughly compared to nurses in England... I

:40:03.:40:06.

mean, should they be paid more than they are currently in Scotland? If

:40:07.:40:10.

you look at information going up, as it is at the moment across the UK

:40:11.:40:22.

and the affected will on wages, of course, as I have just said, that

:40:23.:40:24.

pay restraint is now unsustainable... You have the power

:40:25.:40:26.

to increase pay for nurses, don't you? That is what we have done in

:40:27.:40:29.

Scotland by making sure nurses are paid more in Scotland than in the

:40:30.:40:33.

NHS... Nicola Sturgeon agreed there that pay has not gone up, she agreed

:40:34.:40:37.

with the nurse who said they have not had a pay rise since 2008. The

:40:38.:40:42.

1% pay cap has been in place for a while, there have been rises in pay

:40:43.:40:48.

but pegged to that 1%... So I say again, you have the power to pay

:40:49.:40:52.

over and above that, why haven't you? Pay restraint has been a

:40:53.:40:57.

necessary effect of the austerity policies from the Tory Government...

:40:58.:41:00.

Not to do with the Government, you have the power to do something

:41:01.:41:12.

different. If you feel that nurses should be paid more, then you have

:41:13.:41:14.

tax-raising powers, health is devolved, you could have done

:41:15.:41:16.

something entirely different. There are a range of people who need to be

:41:17.:41:19.

paid more and the budget that comes to the Scottish Government is meted

:41:20.:41:23.

out in order to make sure we meet the needs of people, employees

:41:24.:41:27.

across the nation. The Scottish Government don't forget built in the

:41:28.:41:31.

real living wage for all public sector employees to make sure people

:41:32.:41:35.

had a decent chance of a good living. That is something that has

:41:36.:41:38.

not happened across England and Wales. We have a proud record of

:41:39.:41:41.

being able to tackle though play whenever it is in our gift and as I

:41:42.:41:46.

said the issue around pay restraint, because of the rising inflation, it

:41:47.:41:53.

looks unsustainable, Nicola Sturgeon said clearly she would do something

:41:54.:41:58.

about it. The nurse said she had to use food banks. Is that acceptable?

:41:59.:42:03.

Despite what you have just read, is it acceptable that a nurse working

:42:04.:42:07.

in the NHS in Scotland have to use a food bank? It is not acceptable that

:42:08.:42:12.

anybody has to use a food bank. But you could do something about it,

:42:13.:42:16.

which you have conceded. Let me just ask the question, you talked about

:42:17.:42:20.

pay restraint and austerity, you blamed the

:42:21.:42:35.

Conservative Government for that and talked about inflation, which makes

:42:36.:42:38.

it sound like the Scottish Government has no power at all and

:42:39.:42:41.

is impotent in terms of trying to alleviate the pressure is on page

:42:42.:42:43.

four people who live in Scotland, why don't you raise income tax if

:42:44.:42:46.

you want to pay people more? I have told you about some of the measures

:42:47.:42:49.

we have taken to make sure people get a real living wage, as opposed

:42:50.:42:52.

to that put forward by the UK Government. We are actively doing

:42:53.:42:54.

things like that, but you cannot get away from the fact that when the

:42:55.:42:57.

budgetary system is run in the way it is in the UK and money comes to

:42:58.:43:01.

Scotland, in order to make sure we are paying for services we need to

:43:02.:43:04.

make sure that money is going to protect people and that is what we

:43:05.:43:09.

have done in terms of pay and we have made sure that we have

:43:10.:43:13.

introduced the living wage, that nurses get paid more in Scotland

:43:14.:43:17.

than in England, and we are actively looking at the pay restraint issue

:43:18.:43:20.

because of the fact that inflation now makes it look completely

:43:21.:43:24.

unsustainable. There was a suggestion by some SNP members that

:43:25.:43:30.

the nurse we were talking about was married to at Conservative member,

:43:31.:43:40.

that is untrue. Is that the kind of thing that should be put forward by

:43:41.:43:45.

your party? Somebody said something onto it and almost immediately

:43:46.:43:48.

apologised for it, that was the fact of the matter. But do you agree that

:43:49.:43:53.

that was unacceptable and inappropriate? Of course, it is

:43:54.:43:56.

never acceptable to use that kind of thing. But can I come back to what I

:43:57.:44:00.

was going to say about universal credit, because this is an issue of

:44:01.:44:04.

pay and the ability of people to live their lives in Scotland.

:44:05.:44:17.

I have just come from a meeting of universal credit in Inverness, where

:44:18.:44:21.

it has been rolled out early across this area, it is coming to the rest

:44:22.:44:24.

of the UK shortly and we have got people, because of the universal

:44:25.:44:26.

credit changes that the UK Government are making, working

:44:27.:44:28.

people who are suffering because of cuts to those benefits that are

:44:29.:44:30.

coming out, it is also affecting the disabled and the unemployed as well.

:44:31.:44:33.

Just because I have not that that much more time with you, let's have

:44:34.:44:37.

a look at your manifesto, which is coming out tomorrow, I understand.

:44:38.:44:41.

Can we look forward to an end to the public pay freeze in that manifesto?

:44:42.:44:45.

I'm not going to pre-empt the manifesto launch tomorrow but what I

:44:46.:44:48.

can tell you is that our manifesto will be looking after people with

:44:49.:44:53.

fairness and equality at its heart, unlike what we have seen from the

:44:54.:44:57.

Tory manifesto which attacks pensioners... We have done that, I

:44:58.:45:01.

am more interested in your manifesto. We will see it tomorrow

:45:02.:45:05.

and we will no doubt talk to you again, thank you very much.

:45:06.:45:10.

As well as discussing all of the main parties contesting

:45:11.:45:13.

this general election, we're also looking at the platforms

:45:14.:45:15.

of the smaller parties and today it's the turn

:45:16.:45:17.

The BNP is a nationalist party and it says it wants

:45:18.:45:21.

They are pledging to stop all immigration into the UK,

:45:22.:45:29.

and offer grants to people of foreign descent who volunteer

:45:30.:45:31.

They want to stop what they call the "Islamisation of the UK" and ban

:45:32.:45:38.

hijabs, burkas and the building of new mosques.

:45:39.:45:41.

They also want to abolish anti-discrimination laws,

:45:42.:45:43.

and be tough on law and order by re-introducing the death penalty.

:45:44.:45:46.

We've been joined in the studio by party spokesman and general

:45:47.:45:48.

I am joined by Adam Walker. It is reported your membership is down to

:45:49.:45:59.

a few hundred. In the last election, you lost 99.7% of your vote share,

:46:00.:46:03.

winning just 1600 votes and the party has been riven with infighting

:46:04.:46:07.

and defections. Why is the party in such a perilous state? Yes, it has

:46:08.:46:12.

been quoted that our membership is right down. Isn't it? No, it is at

:46:13.:46:19.

about 3000. What we have to remember is that every month and every year

:46:20.:46:23.

for the past seven years, we have actually operated in a profit. We

:46:24.:46:25.

are doing quite well in that respect. How many members have you

:46:26.:46:31.

got? About 3000, but it is growing. We are doing a lot better since the

:46:32.:46:37.

collapse of Ukip. Doing better since that? How much, though? There has

:46:38.:46:46.

been a decline in membership in the last few years. How much of that is

:46:47.:46:49.

down to your leadership? It is not down to my leadership. We have Ukip,

:46:50.:46:52.

who have been promoted by the mass media. They are doing better than

:46:53.:46:55.

you and are more appealing? They have done in the past. What we have

:46:56.:47:00.

seen with the collapse of Ukip since Brexit, we are gaining members from

:47:01.:47:04.

them and we are pleased about that. One of your policies is zero

:47:05.:47:08.

tolerance for drug dealers and violent thugs. But you were given a

:47:09.:47:13.

six-month suspended sentence in 2012 after verbally abusing three young

:47:14.:47:17.

schoolchildren, chasing them in your 4x4 and slashing the tyres of their

:47:18.:47:22.

bikes with a knife. You were a schoolteacher at the time? If that

:47:23.:47:28.

is not thuggish behaviour, what is? EU the judge described it as a Rush

:47:29.:47:31.

of blood to the head, I apologise that the time. Are you the right

:47:32.:47:38.

person to be the party leader? I do apologise for that and I said I

:47:39.:47:41.

apologise. If we look at criminality, we need to look at the

:47:42.:47:48.

recent programme, talking about the criminality happening in towns...

:47:49.:47:51.

You can't brush it to the side like that. You are the chairman of the

:47:52.:47:57.

British National Party and yet that sort of behaviour, you think, can be

:47:58.:48:00.

excused by a brief rush to the head? It can't be excused at all, I

:48:01.:48:05.

apologise that the time... But you had a six-month suspended jail

:48:06.:48:08.

sentence. If we want to look at criminality, look at what has

:48:09.:48:14.

happened in Rochdale... And those people were convicted and went to

:48:15.:48:18.

jail. Would you be happy for one of them to be in charge of all the

:48:19.:48:23.

chairman of a party? If we want to look at other criminals, we cannot

:48:24.:48:27.

get Tony Blair, who took us to an illegal war under the pretence of

:48:28.:48:31.

weapons mass destruction. I believe, and members of our party believe,

:48:32.:48:35.

that he should be up in court as a criminal. They are not here, and you

:48:36.:48:40.

are, fielding candidates at this election. You have been banned from

:48:41.:48:44.

teaching... I have not. You still teach karate, should you? Of course

:48:45.:48:53.

I should. After you chased three children and slashed tyres with a

:48:54.:48:56.

knife? I have recommendations from people that come to my club. I teach

:48:57.:49:02.

children and have international champions that train from my club,

:49:03.:49:05.

nobody has a problem. Let's move away from your character and onto

:49:06.:49:09.

policies. You want to offer repatriating grants to encourage

:49:10.:49:12.

people for dissent to leave the country? We believe Britain is full.

:49:13.:49:17.

Who would be eligible? There are enough people in Great Britain now.

:49:18.:49:22.

I have taken my other guests through specific policies, who would be

:49:23.:49:26.

eligible? There are far too many people in our country at this point

:49:27.:49:30.

in time. There is enough... The infrastructure can't deal with the

:49:31.:49:33.

amount of people coming in and we need to make sure that they... How

:49:34.:49:39.

would you do it? What the Government should have done, consecutive

:49:40.:49:41.

governments beforehand, they should have done a feasibility study to

:49:42.:49:48.

find out how many people are needed in infrastructure, schools,

:49:49.:49:52.

hospitals, emergency departments. Sure, I take your broad point, that

:49:53.:49:58.

you feel hospitals, schools, they are under pressure. But what I am

:49:59.:50:02.

asking you, you are wanting to offer repatriating grants to encourage

:50:03.:50:06.

people of foreign descent to go back, in your words, to the country

:50:07.:50:10.

you think they came from. Who would be eligible for the grant? I have

:50:11.:50:16.

spoken to parents recently on the school gates and they are really

:50:17.:50:21.

concerned about the amount of people that are being allowed to come in...

:50:22.:50:24.

Are you just offering simple solutions that don't add up to a row

:50:25.:50:29.

of beans? If you would be eligible? Would it just be people who were

:50:30.:50:35.

born abroad? Certainly not. Who would it be? Can you tell me? We

:50:36.:50:40.

could use some of the money that we currently spend on foreign aid, I

:50:41.:50:43.

think nobody has mentioned that one so far in the election debates. I

:50:44.:50:48.

think it is about ?13.5 billion that is being spent in foreign aid to

:50:49.:50:53.

some of the most corrupt countries. But which people do you want to

:50:54.:50:57.

leave the country? If talking about? We're not saying that we want people

:50:58.:51:03.

to leave. We are saying that we want to halt immigration... What is a

:51:04.:51:08.

repatriation grant for? We need to find out who is in this country

:51:09.:51:12.

legally and who is here illegally. Once we have done that, we can...

:51:13.:51:17.

Move on from there. You are going to pay people who are here illegally to

:51:18.:51:22.

go back to where you think they have come from? Well... We have far too

:51:23.:51:27.

many people in the country at this point in time and we need to stop

:51:28.:51:30.

it. People are suffering on the streets. I have spoke to people on

:51:31.:51:35.

the streets. I even spoke to a Jamaican lady the other day, and she

:51:36.:51:40.

is fed up of immigration. But this is one of your policy solutions.

:51:41.:51:44.

What do you say to those that claim you are a racist party? It is

:51:45.:51:48.

nonsense, it is not racist to oppose mass immigration. The Archbishop of

:51:49.:51:52.

Canterbury said himself that is not racist to oppose mass aggression.

:51:53.:51:56.

But you haven't been able to explain one of your key policies, a

:51:57.:52:00.

repatriation grant. We are not racist, it is just a label that has

:52:01.:52:04.

been put on us over the years. It is not racist to oppose mass

:52:05.:52:10.

immigration. It is a numbers game. A few years ago, Nick Griffin, the

:52:11.:52:13.

leader of the party, said we are a racist party. Is he joking? That is

:52:14.:52:19.

why he is not the leader any more. Because he was wrong? Why did he

:52:20.:52:24.

think the BNP is a racist party, his own party? I don't know what Nick

:52:25.:52:27.

Griffin thought. You say you wanted to stop the Islamisation of Britain,

:52:28.:52:34.

banning the burqa, the building of new mosques, wider focus on Muslims?

:52:35.:52:37.

We don't think Islam is compatible with our way of life, as we said rig

:52:38.:52:49.

saw recently. What about... What about British Muslims is not

:52:50.:52:53.

compatible? There are a small number of Muslims that are extremist and we

:52:54.:52:56.

think the government job is to protect the people of Great Britain,

:52:57.:53:02.

protect them in a way that is suitable for them. Do you not think

:53:03.:53:07.

there are extremists in all walks of life? Yes, but if we look at the

:53:08.:53:11.

recent events that have happened here, just down the road, somebody

:53:12.:53:16.

was mown down by a Muslim extremist. We have female genital mutilation,

:53:17.:53:21.

acid attacks, people that our gang raped. Are you an extremist?

:53:22.:53:26.

Certainly not, I am the opposite. Thank you very much.

:53:27.:53:27.

Throughout this week we'll be talking to representatives

:53:28.:53:29.

of the five main parties seeking election in Northern Ireland.

:53:30.:53:31.

We start with the smallest of the five, the Alliance Party,

:53:32.:53:34.

and its deputy leader Stephen Farry joins us live from Belfast

:53:35.:53:41.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. What would you say is a success in this

:53:42.:53:48.

election for you? In the past we have had elected MPs in Northern

:53:49.:53:51.

Ireland, our current leader, and we are hopeful to get one or two seats

:53:52.:53:57.

this time around. We are in a very confident place, we had a very good

:53:58.:54:00.

election in the recent assembly election in Northern Ireland, where

:54:01.:54:04.

we had an almost 50% increase in our vote in the space of 12 months. The

:54:05.:54:11.

main liberal cross community party in Northern Ireland, we are in a

:54:12.:54:14.

good place. The politics are in a precarious situation. In 2016, you

:54:15.:54:20.

didn't win any seats and you lost your only one, Naomi Long, who you

:54:21.:54:24.

mentioned. What are you offering this time that makes you confident

:54:25.:54:27.

that the results are going to be better? Well, we offer a clear

:54:28.:54:32.

alternative. We are not a unionist or Nationalist party. Insofar as

:54:33.:54:36.

politics in Northern Ireland can be very polarised, we are the response

:54:37.:54:39.

to that in the sense that we are offering a different type of

:54:40.:54:44.

approach, focusing on the region of northern Ireland as a whole,

:54:45.:54:47.

representation of the entire community, bringing it into the 21st

:54:48.:54:52.

century. We have a track record of success on the ground, when we have

:54:53.:54:55.

been in government in Northern Ireland in the past. And we have

:54:56.:54:59.

been in Westminster, in the past. In 2015, our vote went up, although the

:55:00.:55:04.

breaks did not fall for us in terms of winning seats. You have been

:55:05.:55:07.

critical of the Conservative Party plans for Brexit, do you accept that

:55:08.:55:10.

if they win this election they will have a mandate from the people for

:55:11.:55:15.

what you would call a hard Brexit? Well, there is a mandate from the

:55:16.:55:19.

referendum last year and, potentially, through the general

:55:20.:55:22.

election. The reality is, no matter what happens for the UK as a whole,

:55:23.:55:26.

Northern Ireland is a special case. We do have the option, the option to

:55:27.:55:33.

rejoin the European Union through a united Ireland at some stage, if

:55:34.:55:37.

that is what the people of Northern Ireland choose. We have the Good

:55:38.:55:40.

Friday agreement and Northern Ireland only works on the basis of

:55:41.:55:43.

sharing and interdependence. Brexit is about putting up new divisions

:55:44.:55:47.

and barriers. There has to be some sort of special arrangement put in

:55:48.:55:49.

place for Northern Ireland, not least because of the fact that we

:55:50.:55:53.

have a land border with the remainder of the European Union

:55:54.:55:57.

through the Republic of Ireland. As you say, that could be the focus of

:55:58.:56:01.

the Brexit negotiations, the issues you just outlined. This election

:56:02.:56:07.

takes place amid a background of uncertainty for devolved

:56:08.:56:09.

institutions. Do you think that might help your party, ironically?

:56:10.:56:13.

Certainly, people are very concerned and frustrated at the lack of

:56:14.:56:16.

progress we have seen in recent years. The issues we have fallen out

:56:17.:56:21.

over are very narrow. But the divisions between the parties are

:56:22.:56:24.

very deep. Indeed, they are very bitter. It is a real tragedy this is

:56:25.:56:29.

happening at this time. We need our own local executive to stand up for

:56:30.:56:32.

Northern Ireland, particularly with Brexit negotiations looming. There

:56:33.:56:35.

is a real desire on the half of the European Union to address the Irish

:56:36.:56:40.

issues at the forefront of the negotiations. Are you reassured by

:56:41.:56:44.

the fact that all the parties, pretty much all of them involved,

:56:45.:56:48.

have said that Northern Ireland and the border issue will be one of the

:56:49.:56:52.

first issues they will try to resolve in the Brexit negotiations?

:56:53.:56:56.

We are reassured in the sense that everybody is saying that. In

:56:57.:57:01.

practice, whenever you try to avoid this frictionless border on the

:57:02.:57:06.

island of Ireland, there is a lot of platitudes, no return to the borders

:57:07.:57:10.

of the past. Nobody to date has really spelt out how we can avoid

:57:11.:57:15.

that, when the UK leaves the customs union. There is no example anywhere

:57:16.:57:19.

else in the world where there is not a physical border and a customs

:57:20.:57:24.

frontier. We will be talking to representational the other Northern

:57:25.:57:28.

Ireland parties later this week. Now, as part of the BBC's general

:57:29.:57:31.

election coverage our very own Andrew will be interviewing

:57:32.:57:33.

a different party leader in-depth And first up is the Prime

:57:34.:57:36.

Minister, Theresa May. That's The Andrew Neil Interviews,

:57:37.:57:39.

with Theresa May, tonight We didn't have time earlier to give

:57:40.:57:49.

you the quiz. You thought you were getting away with it!

:57:50.:57:53.

What do you think is happening in this picture?

:57:54.:57:58.

Do you know what the answer is? I don't! I thought you were going to

:57:59.:58:10.

say yes. What does it look like? Is it to commemorate the signing of a

:58:11.:58:14.

deal? It looks like something out of a sci-fi film.

:58:15.:58:19.

Donald Trump was with King Salman of Saudi Arabia and President Sisi

:58:20.:58:22.

of Egypt at the ceremonial opening of the Global Centre

:58:23.:58:25.

for Combating Extremist Ideology in Riyadh, during the US President's

:58:26.:58:27.

Of course(!) What do you mean, you didn't have a clue! It looks more

:58:28.:58:40.

like a seance. The other worrying seen, waving swords around.

:58:41.:58:43.

Thanks to Theresa, Chuka, and all my guests.

:58:44.:58:45.

The One O'Clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:46.:58:48.

I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the latest

:58:49.:58:51.

election campaign news - do join me then.

:58:52.:58:54.

Jo Coburn is joined by Labour's Chuka Umunna and the Conservative's Theresa Villiers to discuss social care, Jeremy Corbyn's links to the Irish republican movement, and all the latest from the general election campaign trail.


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