24/05/2017 Daily Politics


24/05/2017

With the general election campaign suspended, Andrew Neil looks at Monday night's terrorist attack in Manchester with security and terrorism expert Chris Phillips.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:40.:00:52.

Following Monday night's terrorist attack in the heart of Manchester,

:00:53.:00:54.

the UK terror threat level has been raised to its highest

:00:55.:00:57.

meaning more attacks may be imminent.

:00:58.:00:59.

It means military personnel will now be deployed to protect key sites

:01:00.:01:02.

including Buckingham Palace and Downing Street.

:01:03.:01:04.

Election campaigning is suspended for a second day

:01:05.:01:06.

we will be reporting on the events in Manchester.

:01:07.:01:15.

The bomber, Salman Abedi killed 22 people and injured 64

:01:16.:01:18.

many of the injured are still in critical care.

:01:19.:01:21.

Police have arrested three men in Manchester this morning.

:01:22.:01:23.

The bomber's 23-year-old brother was arrested yesterday.

:01:24.:01:32.

Flowers have been laid and tributes have been paid to the 22 people

:01:33.:01:35.

killed in the attack at Manchester Arena.

:01:36.:01:46.

Eight of the victims are known to be Saffie Rose Roussos, Olivia

:01:47.:01:49.

Campbell, Lisa Lees, Jane Tweddle-Taylor, Martyn Hett, John

:01:50.:01:51.

Atkinson, Georgina Callander and Kelly Brewster. The Polish Foreign

:01:52.:01:53.

Minister has said that a Polish couple who went missing after the

:01:54.:01:54.

attack are among those killed. Thousands of people turned out

:01:55.:02:06.

for the vigil in Manchester yesterday evening and to hold

:02:07.:02:08.

a minute's silence to Home Secretary Amber Rudd,

:02:09.:02:10.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and Commons Speaker John Bercow

:02:11.:02:15.

stood on stage alongside Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham

:02:16.:02:18.

and Greater Manchester Police Chief This morning members of the cabinet

:02:19.:02:38.

met as the Prime Minister Theresa May again chaired COBRA, the

:02:39.:02:40.

government's crisis response committee.

:02:41.:02:44.

Chris Philips, former head of the National Counter Terrorism Security

:02:45.:02:47.

office, will be with me throughout today. Welcome to the programme, the

:02:48.:02:54.

fallout from Manchester dominating everything, huge security

:02:55.:02:58.

investigation now under way. Where do you see... Where are we at? The

:02:59.:03:02.

most interesting point, the things that have not come out yet which are

:03:03.:03:07.

absolutely essential to know, it was this home-made explosive? If it was,

:03:08.:03:12.

then somewhere in the UK, there is a bomb factory that needs to be found.

:03:13.:03:21.

Was the device strapped to the person, a suicide bomb, or was this

:03:22.:03:25.

a dropped case, in which case, as may have been designed to be the

:03:26.:03:29.

first of a number, in which case, there are still bombs in the UK

:03:30.:03:35.

somewhere. Unlike 77, backpacks, I think, they had them on their back,

:03:36.:03:40.

I have seen pictures, or at least mock-ups, recreations, suggesting

:03:41.:03:47.

this suicide bomber had a suitcase. -- 7/7. I have seen the same, I do

:03:48.:03:51.

not know if that is fact or opinion, I have not heard any thing from the

:03:52.:03:54.

police, its changes totally the way that this investigation will go. It

:03:55.:03:59.

was quite obvious to me straightaway that this was not a one-man band who

:04:00.:04:03.

has done this, there must be a group behind it, but whether this person

:04:04.:04:08.

was going to drop the case and walk away, in which in which situation we

:04:09.:04:14.

would have potentially a number of other cases ready to be dropped. We

:04:15.:04:17.

will go through this in detail with you and others later. Am I right in

:04:18.:04:23.

assuming, because, as you say, security services think this was not

:04:24.:04:27.

just a lone wolf operation, that he had help, and that help is still out

:04:28.:04:31.

there, but that is why the security alert is now up at the highest

:04:32.:04:35.

critical level? I said yesterday, if the level goes up to critical, then

:04:36.:04:40.

for sure, they are chasing other people. When you get a situation

:04:41.:04:45.

like this, if it is a home-made explosive, absolutely no way that

:04:46.:04:48.

one person can do that, it takes a lot of work, you have to get the

:04:49.:04:53.

ingredients, you have to get the understanding of how to do it and I

:04:54.:04:56.

don't think there is anything that says this would have been a one-man

:04:57.:05:00.

band. We will be going through a lot of that in the next hour.

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This morning's newspapers all have pictures of the young victims on

:05:15.:05:16.

their front pages. The Sun's headline is 'Pure Evil'

:05:17.:05:28.

with a picture of the youngest victim Saffie Roussosa alongside the

:05:29.:05:31.

bomber Salman Abedi. The Guardian again has eight year old Saffie and

:05:32.:05:34.

a picture of the first victim to be named, Georgina Callander. The Daily

:05:35.:05:40.

Mail has the same two girls with the headline 'soldiers on the streets'

:05:41.:05:44.

And The Times looks at the links Salman Abedi had with Libya. The

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Telegraph looks at the raising of the terror threat level and reports

:05:50.:05:51.

that we will be seeing troops on the streets. And finally the Mirror has

:05:52.:05:53.

the headline 'killed by evil'. Well last night the Prime Minister

:05:54.:05:59.

announced that the independent body, the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre

:06:00.:06:01.

had decided to raise the terror threat from "critical" to "severe"

:06:02.:06:04.

for the first time since June 2007. This means an attack

:06:05.:06:07.

may be imminent. This morning I said that the joint

:06:08.:06:20.

terrorism analysis Centre, the independent organisation responsible

:06:21.:06:24.

for setting the threat level on the basis of intelligence available was

:06:25.:06:26.

keeping the threat level under constant review. It has now

:06:27.:06:34.

concluded on the basis of today's investigations that the threat level

:06:35.:06:36.

should be increased for the time being, from severe to critical. This

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means their assessment is not only that an attack remains highly

:06:44.:06:46.

likely, but that a further attack may be imminent. The Prime Minister

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last night. And this morning Home Secretary Amber Rudd gave more

:07:01.:07:03.

detail on what we can expect to see with the increased threat level.

:07:04.:07:05.

Good progress has been made with a number of arrests overnight and that

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will continue. We have now gone to a critical level in terms of the

:07:10.:07:14.

threat. Operation Tempora has been invoked, that means there will be

:07:15.:07:18.

additional military personnel coming to backfill the armed police

:07:19.:07:22.

officers, so that they can support other areas. Today we have 984

:07:23.:07:28.

members of the military coming forward, as requested by the police.

:07:29.:07:32.

They will be initially deployed in London but also in the rest of the

:07:33.:07:35.

country as requested, and they will perform an important part of the

:07:36.:07:47.

defence going forward. Let's take a look in more detail at what the new

:07:48.:07:52.

threat level means. "Critical" is the highest terrorist threat level

:07:53.:07:55.

that the UK can face. As the Prime Minister said, it means that a

:07:56.:07:57.

further attack may be imminent, in the view of security and police

:07:58.:07:59.

experts. We had previously been on the second highest threat level,

:08:00.:08:02.

which is called "severe". Using the critical threat level is unusual -

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it's only been used twice before, once in 2006 and once in 2007.

:08:05.:08:20.

The PM said the police, as a result, had asked for military assistance

:08:21.:08:23.

in guarding key sites around the country.

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These locations include the House of Commons, Buckingham Palace

:08:26.:08:27.

It also means that the police will be given

:08:28.:08:30.

extra resources to deal with the critical threat level.

:08:31.:08:32.

The terrorist threat level is set by the Joint

:08:33.:08:34.

Terrorism Analysis Centre, which draws on expertise from the

:08:35.:08:37.

The decision to deploy troops is for the government.

:08:38.:08:40.

The Home Secretary Amber Rudd stressed this morning

:08:41.:08:42.

that the critical threat level was a "temporary arrangement"

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to respond to what she called an "exceptional event".

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And joining us now is Professor John Gearson, from the Centre for Defence

:08:56.:08:57.

Studies at King's College London... Welcome to the programme, in

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practice, what does moving to critical mean? For government

:09:07.:09:09.

buildings and public sector entities like universities and hospitals,

:09:10.:09:14.

there will be different security, more enhanced security, people will

:09:15.:09:18.

be called on to identify themselves in a way that they may not in every

:09:19.:09:22.

single building, the decision to deploy the military, this is outside

:09:23.:09:26.

the normal step up to severe, and in fact that is something that is going

:09:27.:09:31.

to attract some comments. Can I clarify, some people have assumed

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that because it went to critical, that means the military is deployed,

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that is not the case. Two separate decisions, saying that need to move

:09:42.:09:45.

to critical, that is an independent decision but then saying we need to

:09:46.:09:49.

deploy troops, that is a government decision. Military deployment is not

:09:50.:09:55.

linked, even going to critical, it could be chosen to support severe

:09:56.:10:00.

level. This has being driven not by in my opinion a long-term considered

:10:01.:10:05.

approach but essentially, a result of the Paris attacks, this policy of

:10:06.:10:09.

been able to called upon the military is a profound change in the

:10:10.:10:16.

attitude of the Ministry of Defence and the military. We began to see

:10:17.:10:19.

more and more French military on the streets, French cities and

:10:20.:10:27.

infrastructure. They say what is the meaning of an 18 month straight of

:10:28.:10:31.

emergency, with military in the streets, the French have criticised

:10:32.:10:35.

themselves for that, but Britain has been reluctant to use the military

:10:36.:10:38.

for a number of reasons which we cannot go into now. Appropriate,

:10:39.:10:44.

cautious use of the military is appropriate at a time of national

:10:45.:10:48.

emergency. If we want to call this a national emergency, and by calling

:10:49.:10:54.

this critical, they are saying this is something unusual. We have not

:10:55.:10:58.

designated this a national emergency officially. Unlike the French,

:10:59.:11:02.

President Francois Hollande, previous president, he declared a

:11:03.:11:06.

state of emergency and that state of emergency. That is right, many

:11:07.:11:12.

people thought that this is a mistake, the British approach is

:11:13.:11:17.

predicated on normality, things may be dangerous, but normal life is

:11:18.:11:21.

going to continue, on the other hand, when a suicide bomber, if it

:11:22.:11:25.

proves to be a suicide bomber, let's presume it is, even if it is in a

:11:26.:11:30.

suitcase, if a suicide bomber kills eight, nine, 10-year old, that is

:11:31.:11:34.

not normality, I can see why the government wants to respond, the

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question is whether the military do something useful, whether that be a

:11:39.:11:42.

presence on the street or not. Is the deployment of the military more

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than just symbolic? I think it is disappointing because it tells a

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story that the police do not have the resources to do the job we want

:11:50.:11:54.

them to do, once the police on the streets, and most police forces,

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most of the officers I speak with would say the resources are not

:11:58.:12:00.

there to maintain the number of officers on the streets,

:12:01.:12:04.

particularly with guns, his officers do not have enough officers they do

:12:05.:12:06.

not have enough officers that can carry guns to cover all the

:12:07.:12:10.

locations for a sustained period of time, that is why they need the

:12:11.:12:14.

military, disappointing we have got to that stage. It is your

:12:15.:12:18.

understanding as well that it is the police that asked the government for

:12:19.:12:22.

the military to step up, and help take the pressure of the armed

:12:23.:12:25.

guarding of sensitive sites. I would imagine that is the case, I think

:12:26.:12:32.

what the police want is actually the ability to respond, what that means

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is having the responders available, right across the country, actually,

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and what we do know is, actually, London has a pretty good response to

:12:40.:12:43.

armed incidents, the rest of the country not so much, and this has

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happened in the north-west of the country, this has not happened in

:12:48.:12:52.

London, constabularies in that area do not have the number of firearms

:12:53.:12:56.

officers available in London. You were saying this had gone to

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critical because it was clear that Salman Abedi had not been operating

:13:01.:13:04.

on his own, if that is the case, that means, in this police operation

:13:05.:13:08.

that is going on, they will be getting a wealth of the tail, it is

:13:09.:13:12.

not becoming public, obviously, quite rightly, but there is a tonne

:13:13.:13:17.

of stuff that they will be across. Hopefully, they have some history of

:13:18.:13:22.

this guy, they know who he is, they know who he has been playing with

:13:23.:13:26.

over the last six to 12 months. It is not clear that they do. That is

:13:27.:13:31.

one of the issues, and of course, we would expect them to keep this quiet

:13:32.:13:36.

at the moment, but at this moment, I would have expected to see quite a

:13:37.:13:41.

lot of arrests, crucially, the bomb factory, if this is a home-made

:13:42.:13:45.

explosive, that bomb factory is dangerous, something that when you

:13:46.:13:48.

make home-made explosives, it is extremely dangerous. And volatile.

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And it can go bang at any moment. The police will be wanting to get

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into that as quick as possible to make sure that other people are

:13:57.:14:00.

safe. We have seen people moved out of flats and houses to deal with

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that. With what we know so far about Salman Abedi, and his Libyan parents

:14:06.:14:09.

and background, what do you make of where we are, was this man... Was

:14:10.:14:18.

this man on the security radar, or was he to low-level? I am sceptic

:14:19.:14:25.

about the concept of a lone wolf, nobody is alone, everybody has

:14:26.:14:28.

connections that lead to the point at which they carry out violent

:14:29.:14:31.

attacks, the picture coming out this morning in the press and of easily

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it has not been confirmed by the government is a bit conflicting, on

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the one hand, a device that needs more than basic amateurish mixing of

:14:38.:14:44.

chemicals in a pot in a room and a desire to carry out a suicide

:14:45.:14:47.

attack, on the other hand, neighbours reporting going into the

:14:48.:14:51.

street and chanting prayers, growing a beard, doing the kind of

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operational security that no serious professional terrorist would do,

:14:56.:14:57.

they would be doing the opposite, they would not be chanting, they

:14:58.:15:01.

would be going out of their way to where Western clothes. We cannot

:15:02.:15:08.

ascribe brilliance to people until we know whether they were connected.

:15:09.:15:12.

To make a suicide bomb that works is actually quite difficult. I think,

:15:13.:15:19.

we saw on the 21st of July, 2005, that just by getting the fixture

:15:20.:15:24.

wrong, the devices did not work. That was the one that attempted to

:15:25.:15:32.

follow up 77. -- 7/7. Then we had the shooting of the Brazilian, Jean

:15:33.:15:35.

Charles de Menezes, during the pursuit of those people, by the way,

:15:36.:15:40.

they did not go down fighting, they surrendered, quite an interesting

:15:41.:15:42.

thing to remember about suicide bombing

:15:43.:15:53.

We know Abedi had just come back from Libya. We know he was chanting

:15:54.:16:00.

very loudly in Arabic, prayers and parts of the Koran. And I saw one

:16:01.:16:06.

report that said there was a black flag flying from the garden with

:16:07.:16:10.

Arabic script on it. Doesn't that alert anybody? Let's hope so. He had

:16:11.:16:18.

all the signs that should have been alerted. I read also that an imam

:16:19.:16:26.

saw him and said, I am worried about this guy. Did he tell the police?

:16:27.:16:30.

Have the neighbours told the police? Whilst this stuff may be happening,

:16:31.:16:35.

someone has to tell the police. That is the only way we can get involved.

:16:36.:16:40.

What do you make of it when you add what we know already to it? My

:16:41.:16:48.

speculation is that this individual did travel to Libya and had contact

:16:49.:16:52.

with people with links to Islamic State and may have had some

:16:53.:16:58.

training. But he does not seem to display the professional qualities

:16:59.:17:06.

we would expect. The question is, are there more bombs and people? Or

:17:07.:17:09.

are there these slightly volatile individuals who may or may not have

:17:10.:17:14.

had some connection and some training and the ability to do

:17:15.:17:18.

damage. French intelligence say he also went to Syria. We don't know if

:17:19.:17:26.

he was trained in Libya. We don't know what the connections of his

:17:27.:17:29.

father were. There are reports that he fell out with the Gaddafi regime

:17:30.:17:33.

and left. That was why they ended up in Britain. We will come to that

:17:34.:17:38.

later in the programme. But the Home Secretary said this morning that

:17:39.:17:42.

Salman Abedi, the suicide bomber, was known to the security services

:17:43.:17:49.

"Up to a point". What does that mean? It probably means he may have

:17:50.:17:52.

had contact with somebody who was on a watchlist or may have been watched

:17:53.:17:57.

constantly by the security service. They have to make tough judgments

:17:58.:18:06.

every day in asking for resources. If you want to monitor somebody,

:18:07.:18:12.

especially in the current climate of encryption, we know the attacker

:18:13.:18:20.

Westminster was whatsapping before he drove his car across listeners to

:18:21.:18:23.

bridge. We don't have those messages yet. There is an ongoing discussion.

:18:24.:18:33.

The question is, do these people have the ability to be ahead of the

:18:34.:18:40.

security services? In this case, sadly, they did. And although this

:18:41.:18:47.

is a tragic event, it doesn't necessarily indicate, well, it's a

:18:48.:18:55.

failure of our counterterrorism efforts if anyone gets through, but

:18:56.:19:02.

it's not a failure of intelligence. In East Germany, more than 50% of

:19:03.:19:06.

the population were informing on the other 48%. There is that balance

:19:07.:19:17.

between over-securitising our lives and changing our normal life. There

:19:18.:19:22.

were reports that Abedi had links with the Libyan Islamic fighting

:19:23.:19:25.

group in the Manchester area and that they were in Whalley range, not

:19:26.:19:29.

far from where he lived in the Manchester area. They had raised

:19:30.:19:39.

funds and had even been convicted tangentially with the Didsbury

:19:40.:19:41.

mosque. We don't know that, but that is what reports say. But this group

:19:42.:19:50.

has been described in that area of Manchester as a hotbed for Islamic

:19:51.:19:55.

State. People watching this will be surprised that we in this country

:19:56.:20:03.

and don't seem to have done much about it. Exactly. Since the Islamic

:20:04.:20:16.

State has started acting as has in Libya and has committed all these

:20:17.:20:28.

terrorist attacks, I would hope it is being monitored. We have been

:20:29.:20:31.

through this before and the French have been through it even more times

:20:32.:20:33.

in recent years. Has anything changed as a result of this? Well,

:20:34.:20:41.

we are stopping most attacks, but terrorism is not stopped by security

:20:42.:20:44.

services. Individual acts of terrorism are, and they are very

:20:45.:20:50.

important. We ultimately have to go through the community and the policy

:20:51.:20:57.

of countering extremism generally. That is the long term, but the

:20:58.:21:01.

resources go into physical security. But we say this every time, that we

:21:02.:21:06.

have to do this after an attack, and yet 22 people were killed and almost

:21:07.:21:15.

60 were badly injured in Manchester again. It's about the hardest policy

:21:16.:21:21.

area you can have. It's about education, community cohesion and

:21:22.:21:23.

determined people in other countries planning attacks against us. No

:21:24.:21:28.

country has found an answer to this. More importantly, it's a dynamic

:21:29.:21:32.

problem. The mobilisation of people going to Syria and Libya were

:21:33.:21:37.

different people to the 2000 we were looking at a decade ago from

:21:38.:21:41.

Al-Qaeda. Some are the same, but it is a very traumatic problem, also

:21:42.:21:47.

for countries like France. Professor, thank you.

:21:48.:21:49.

Leaders around the world have been quick to declare solidarity

:21:50.:21:52.

Here's Ellie with a summary of how the world responded.

:21:53.:21:59.

In Paris, the lights turned off as a mark of respect. In New York, the

:22:00.:22:07.

Empire State Building, a skyline dimmed. And in Dubai, Geneva, Zagreb

:22:08.:22:15.

and Belfast too. The international gestures matched with words of

:22:16.:22:21.

solidarity from world leaders, and contempt for the terrorists. I will

:22:22.:22:27.

call them, from now on, losers, because that's what they are. They

:22:28.:22:32.

are losers. After phoning Theresa May, the French president walked to

:22:33.:22:37.

the British Embassy to sign a book of condolence. In Berlin, Chancellor

:22:38.:22:41.

Merkel said Germany stood shoulder to shoulder with Britain. Other

:22:42.:22:47.

world leaders took to social media to send their support to Britain,

:22:48.:22:52.

while President Putin sent a telegram to the Prime Minister,

:22:53.:22:54.

offering to increase counterterrorism cooperation. Like

:22:55.:23:00.

many European capitals, the EU flew its flags at half-mast in Brussels.

:23:01.:23:04.

And in Australia, Prime Minister Turnbull captured the mood of many.

:23:05.:23:08.

This is a direct and brutal attack on young people everywhere on

:23:09.:23:16.

freedom everywhere. Ariana Grande, the American singer whose concert it

:23:17.:23:20.

was in Manchester has flown home, but not yet cancelled her London

:23:21.:23:24.

tour dates later this week. Meanwhile, many other musicians

:23:25.:23:27.

tweeted their thoughts, including Rihanna, who said Manchester was

:23:28.:23:31.

close to her heart and suggested that the attack could have happened

:23:32.:23:35.

that one of her concerts. And the Oasis singer and celebrated

:23:36.:23:37.

Mancunian Liam Gallagher, who tweeted that he sent Northern Lights

:23:38.:23:40.

to all the families involved. The world of sport paid -- he said

:23:41.:23:46.

Lenovo and liked the families involved. Ahead of the Europa League

:23:47.:23:55.

match tonight, David Beckham captured the mood with this tweet.

:23:56.:24:06.

Police in Manchester say three more arrests have been made

:24:07.:24:09.

One man detained yesterday is still in custody.

:24:10.:24:12.

Catriona Renton is our correspondent outside

:24:13.:24:13.

What can you tell us about the three arrests this morning? There have

:24:14.:24:29.

been a number of developments. The three men who were arrested this

:24:30.:24:33.

morning were arrested in South Manchester. Police had been issued

:24:34.:24:38.

with warrants. We understand that they were arrested in connection

:24:39.:24:44.

with this investigation. Another development was the 23-year-old man

:24:45.:24:47.

who was arrested yesterday. He is the brother of 22-year-old Salman

:24:48.:24:53.

Abedi, who of course was the bomber that was identified yesterday. Let

:24:54.:24:57.

me bring you another statement from Greater Manchester Police which has

:24:58.:25:01.

come in in the last half-hour. They are confident that they know who all

:25:02.:25:04.

of the people are who sadly lost their lives at the Manchester Arena.

:25:05.:25:08.

They say they have made contact with all of the families, who are being

:25:09.:25:13.

supported by specialist officers. They say that due to the number of

:25:14.:25:19.

victim postmortems that are to take four to five days, they will then be

:25:20.:25:23.

in a position, with the guidance of the coroner, to formally named the

:25:24.:25:30.

victims. This investigation is very fast moving. We have seen the

:25:31.:25:32.

developments we have already talked about. Home Secretary Amber Rudd

:25:33.:25:39.

said this morning that Salman Abedi was known to intelligence services

:25:40.:25:43.

up to a point. That of course leaves a big question as to what extent he

:25:44.:25:49.

was known to intelligence services. We understand that he had recently

:25:50.:25:52.

come back from Libya. He would have had his passport checked by security

:25:53.:25:58.

services when he came back into the UK. We have also heard that he may

:25:59.:26:03.

have been known to American intelligence services also. The

:26:04.:26:09.

central point of the investigation now is, was Salman Abedi acting

:26:10.:26:16.

alone? Their priority is to find out who if anyone else was involved.

:26:17.:26:24.

They need to know where the bomb was made, if there were other people

:26:25.:26:28.

involved, and the making of the bomb, the armouring of the bomb and

:26:29.:26:32.

if there were others who were encouraging Salman Abedi and

:26:33.:26:39.

supporting him for he carried out a horrific attack on Monday night. The

:26:40.:26:44.

police investigation here is fast-moving, the police working hard

:26:45.:26:48.

with the counterterrorism network. They have also thanked the people of

:26:49.:26:53.

Manchester for their strength and resilience over the past few days.

:26:54.:26:58.

They say they will need to carry on with this strength and resilience

:26:59.:27:01.

while they ensure that they can make this city safe once again. Catriona

:27:02.:27:07.

Renton outside the Manchester police building, thank you.

:27:08.:27:09.

And we're joined now by Lucy Powell, who was an MP in Manchester.

:27:10.:27:17.

In your knowledge, how serious is the problem of Islamist

:27:18.:27:27.

radicalisation in Manchester? Am not sure this is the right moment to go

:27:28.:27:31.

into that, because I don't even want to ascribe what has happened to the

:27:32.:27:40.

Islamic faith. Most of my constituents who are Muslim would

:27:41.:27:43.

absolutely disassociated themselves from any act of violence or terror

:27:44.:27:52.

like this. But I am not ascribing it to them. I did not say Islam, I said

:27:53.:27:59.

Islamist, which is different. We have learned that there are areas

:28:00.:28:03.

regarded as hotbeds of Islamic State in the Manchester area. Were you

:28:04.:28:07.

aware of that? Is that common knowledge in the city? I think

:28:08.:28:17.

sometimes, these things are given labels. There was a media report

:28:18.:28:23.

recently about Moss side, an area I represent, as though that was

:28:24.:28:25.

somehow a hotbed of Islamic extremists. Actually, most of the

:28:26.:28:30.

evidence that was used in the article did not stack up because

:28:31.:28:36.

people were from far and wide across the Greater Manchester area. The

:28:37.:28:41.

people they were using to create that story were not there at the

:28:42.:28:47.

same time as one another. So we have to be careful, especially in these

:28:48.:28:53.

times, to start pitting community against community in saying that

:28:54.:28:58.

certain areas or certain people or certain communities are somehow

:28:59.:29:02.

responsible when they are not. These are the acts of deranged individuals

:29:03.:29:08.

who have, in my eyes, nothing to do with humanity. How anyone is a human

:29:09.:29:15.

being could carry out these acts more I find incomprehensible. So

:29:16.:29:21.

it's really important, in the face of these atrocities in this horrific

:29:22.:29:25.

terror attack in Manchester, that we don't start pointing the finger in

:29:26.:29:32.

the wrong place. I understand that. None of the questions I am asking

:29:33.:29:35.

you involve pointing the finger at anybody. They are trying to get to

:29:36.:29:39.

the bottom of how this happened and who was behind it. Is there a

:29:40.:29:46.

realisation, that Abedi was not acting alone, that there is a group

:29:47.:29:52.

of people who helped him to do this, therefore making the situation all

:29:53.:29:57.

the more dangerous? Well, that is what we are hearing. I am not in a

:29:58.:30:01.

position to provide a commentary, nor would I provide a running

:30:02.:30:05.

commentary on the operation that is under way and try to make sure that

:30:06.:30:13.

everybody associated with this heinous crime is brought to justice.

:30:14.:30:18.

Of course, when somebody carries out and act like this, in a sense, it

:30:19.:30:23.

does break open that network that has hitherto remained under the

:30:24.:30:32.

radar of the security services. So inevitably, I hope that they close

:30:33.:30:35.

all the associates down completely and identify them all and make sure

:30:36.:30:40.

they are brought to justice. But it is an ongoing investigation. I do

:30:41.:30:45.

not recognise the description of areas of Manchester being hotbeds of

:30:46.:30:49.

radicalisation. Police have named 22-year-old

:30:50.:30:56.

Salman Ramadan Abedi as the person suspected of carrying out

:30:57.:31:08.

the suicide attack at So what do we know about him and how

:31:09.:31:10.

he came to be radicalised? We're joined now by our Security

:31:11.:31:21.

Correspondent, Gordon Corera. We know that he was a Manchester United

:31:22.:31:25.

supporter, new like cricket, smoked cannabis, made it to Salford

:31:26.:31:28.

University, the son of Libyan parents who fled Colonel Gaddafi, he

:31:29.:31:34.

was not from a deprived background, his father had fled the Gaddafi

:31:35.:31:37.

regime, at one stage, but is now back in Tripoli. What else... What

:31:38.:31:44.

else, as we try to put together a picture of the suicide bomber, what

:31:45.:31:49.

else do we know? It is the moment of radicalisation which investigators

:31:50.:31:51.

are looking for, trying to understand when it took place, looks

:31:52.:31:55.

like a few years ago he was a relatively normal individual,

:31:56.:32:01.

football supporting and so on. But associate, people in the area, have

:32:02.:32:05.

said that more recently, they did notice some kind of change in

:32:06.:32:06.

behaviour. Some potential signs of what is

:32:07.:32:14.

looking certain to be radicalisation, the issue of travel

:32:15.:32:18.

is one that security services are looking at closely, the possibility

:32:19.:32:21.

he had been in Libya recently, was that a place in which he was

:32:22.:32:25.

radicalised, some possible reports of other travel as well, that will

:32:26.:32:30.

be something they will be trying to understand, was a radicalised there,

:32:31.:32:33.

was he tasked there, was he given training abroad, what kind of travel

:32:34.:32:37.

may there have been, also reports from France that French officials

:32:38.:32:41.

think he may have gone to Syria. Some of this is not confirmed, but

:32:42.:32:45.

that is going to be a very key line of enquiry. What about this group,

:32:46.:32:54.

the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, which existed in Libya to oppose

:32:55.:32:59.

Colonel Gaddafi, although Gaddafi's security services closed it down and

:33:00.:33:03.

took out and killed a lot of the leaders of it. There seems to be a

:33:04.:33:08.

remnant of it in the Manchester area, he may have had a connection,

:33:09.:33:14.

anything on that? The story of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group is

:33:15.:33:16.

very interesting when it comes to iteration ship with Britain because

:33:17.:33:20.

it was a group which was Islamist in outlook but was also anti-Gaddafi

:33:21.:33:24.

and if you look at the history, in the 90s, when Britain was very

:33:25.:33:30.

anti-Gaddafi, those people found a home in Britain, and they tended to

:33:31.:33:38.

be able to operate here, and then after 2003 there was the deal with

:33:39.:33:41.

Colonel Gaddafi and Britain and the Libyan regime became more friendly

:33:42.:33:45.

and then there was more pressure on the LIFG in Britain. Very

:33:46.:33:49.

interesting history of the last 20, 30 years, in which the Britain

:33:50.:33:53.

intelligence services and the state 's attitude to LIFG has mirrored how

:33:54.:33:59.

friendly or not we were with the regime of Colonel Gaddafi, which

:34:00.:34:04.

they were fighting and opposing. I don't think we have yet heard from

:34:05.:34:12.

the father, he was born in 1965, very strict Muslim, some reports say

:34:13.:34:18.

that he was very anti-jihadi. Some reports that he may have been

:34:19.:34:21.

involved with internal security in Libya at one stage but then broke

:34:22.:34:26.

with Tripoli in 1991, may have been in Saudi Arabia for a while, then

:34:27.:34:32.

went to London in 1992, then Manchester, and had four children,

:34:33.:34:37.

but then went back to Tripoli in 2008, before the regime change.

:34:38.:34:42.

Interesting timing, a lot of people from LIFG and related groups went

:34:43.:34:47.

back after regime change. There were some deals done with former

:34:48.:34:51.

opponents under Colonel Gaddafi in that period. That looks quite

:34:52.:34:58.

unusual. Now, you have a lot of former anti-Gaddafi forces and

:34:59.:35:02.

individuals who were based, back in Libya, and so it is a very

:35:03.:35:07.

complicated mix, the Libyan opposition, full of different groups

:35:08.:35:11.

and individuals, different factions who have been fighting each other in

:35:12.:35:15.

recent months and years, and that will complicate the intelligence and

:35:16.:35:20.

security gathering business for British intelligence, to try to

:35:21.:35:23.

establish what the links are and who knew what. A final question, more

:35:24.:35:29.

generally, where do you see the state of the investigation so far,

:35:30.:35:35.

into Salman Abedi and those who may well have helped him? The crucial

:35:36.:35:39.

issue is where was the bomb instructed and by who, general view

:35:40.:35:44.

is that it was not a straightforward device, may have required assistance

:35:45.:35:48.

from others, and they want to know was there a bomb factory in the UK,

:35:49.:35:52.

was there a bomb maker in the UK, did it take place overseas. That is

:35:53.:35:58.

vital to understand where the residual threat lies and how serious

:35:59.:36:07.

it might be in the UK. That is why the threat level has gone up too

:36:08.:36:08.

critical. Thank you for joining us. I'm joined now by the former

:36:09.:36:18.

Communities Secretary, Hazel Blears, who helped run the Prevent strategy

:36:19.:36:21.

under Labour and Douglas Murray, associate director of

:36:22.:36:23.

the Henry Jackson Society, had the politicians say what they

:36:24.:36:31.

say after a terrible atrocity like this happens, and we have stepped up

:36:32.:36:36.

security and what is said is well said and well meant, too, but does

:36:37.:36:41.

anything, in the end, ever change? Inevitable that in an event, and

:36:42.:36:45.

after an event like this, people concentrate on the here and now,

:36:46.:36:48.

this operation to bring people to justice and that is to be expected,

:36:49.:36:52.

I want us to take a step back and think about what is it that is going

:36:53.:36:57.

on in our country and around the world, where we have a supply chain

:36:58.:37:02.

of people coming through who are radicalised and not just radicalised

:37:03.:37:06.

but prepared to kill and kill themselves in the process. 7/7, that

:37:07.:37:10.

was the first time we had experienced that in this country, a

:37:11.:37:14.

sense of national shock that three young men brought up and educated in

:37:15.:37:17.

the British education system could set out on a murderous bombing

:37:18.:37:23.

mission, and it has happened again. Ten years later. A decade on. It has

:37:24.:37:27.

happened around the world, France, Spain, Belgium. We have done some

:37:28.:37:34.

good work in bringing communities together, the channel programme,

:37:35.:37:37.

with direct the lies agent but we have not tackled this ideology. I

:37:38.:37:41.

went to see David Cameron Mackay boss task force that we set up,

:37:42.:37:44.

together with a Conservative colleague on a cross-party basis,

:37:45.:37:48.

and gave them a paper, it was about saying, then we take part of this

:37:49.:37:53.

ideology of hating the West, having a caliphate and a theocracy around

:37:54.:37:56.

the world, and being prepared to murder on the basis that if you die,

:37:57.:38:02.

you are going to paradise. It is a threadbare, worthless ideology, we

:38:03.:38:06.

tackle fascism, Nazism, we need the same determination to be able to

:38:07.:38:10.

tackle this ideology. Then we might be getting somewhere. At the moment,

:38:11.:38:14.

I do not think we are marshalling our resources in the way we ought to

:38:15.:38:17.

be, it is an existing Schalke wrecked. We need to meet it. In the

:38:18.:38:23.

end, we only defeated Nazism because of total war. It was not the idea,

:38:24.:38:30.

it was the total war that won. And of course I am not advocating that.

:38:31.:38:42.

-- it is an existing problem. We do not want to believe what they say,

:38:43.:38:45.

after all these years we seem to be in this strange cycle, Hazel quite

:38:46.:38:49.

rightly says, not preparing to fight this ideology but politicians, from

:38:50.:38:54.

all parties, are very reluctant to even name the ideology in question.

:38:55.:38:57.

There is a concerted effort after an attack like that on Monday night, to

:38:58.:39:05.

not say anything that would compel anybody to do something. Last night,

:39:06.:39:12.

-- last month, after the Westminster terror attacks, just down the road

:39:13.:39:15.

from here, the Dean of Westminster on behalf of this nation stood up at

:39:16.:39:19.

the pulpit and said, we may never know what may drive somebody to do

:39:20.:39:23.

this... Sorry, we do know! We know why somebody like Khalid Masood did

:39:24.:39:28.

what he did outside the Houses of Parliament, we know why somebody

:39:29.:39:32.

like this young man did what he did, they keep telling us! We just don't

:39:33.:39:38.

want to listen. Is it, is it the Islamist ideology? Yes... Don't

:39:39.:39:43.

recognise that? No, take Italy we do not want to recognise where it comes

:39:44.:39:48.

from. Wethers it come from? Religion, the worst possible

:39:49.:39:51.

interpretation of the religion, it comes from it, we are very reluctant

:39:52.:39:56.

to face up to date. -- where does it come from. Underneath all this there

:39:57.:40:00.

is something else happening, politicians are talking about

:40:01.:40:03.

technical issues to do with security, but the public in Britain

:40:04.:40:07.

and the public in Europe are thinking totally different things,

:40:08.:40:09.

they are thinking for instance, how can it be that we may bring a couple

:40:10.:40:14.

of Libyans who may have suffered under Colonel Gaddafi into this

:40:15.:40:18.

country as asylum seekers, perhaps they are pro-Britain, perhaps the

:40:19.:40:22.

most pro-Britain ever, but maybe their child will turn up to a pop

:40:23.:40:25.

concert one night and blow up a bunch of women and children... How

:40:26.:40:30.

can you ever know that? What does the policy followed, that we should

:40:31.:40:34.

not have let them in? The policy issue is, the public are wondering

:40:35.:40:39.

whether this whole idea of mass migration, of borderless world and

:40:40.:40:43.

all of these things is such a good idea, publics are committed to a

:40:44.:40:45.

different conclusion to politicians, it is right we have security

:40:46.:40:49.

questions but as a country we should also be thinking about the deeper

:40:50.:40:53.

underlying things. I may so, when Hazel says, we have two tackle this

:40:54.:40:58.

underlying ideology and fight it, I agree, but we must appropriately

:40:59.:41:07.

designate the problem. Hazel, we still have... You need to let Hazel

:41:08.:41:11.

Blears speak. With Robert share some of the analysis but I am a practical

:41:12.:41:14.

person, what I set out to do with prevent was not just described the

:41:15.:41:19.

problem, and I agree, it needs to be named. -- Prevent. The overwhelming

:41:20.:41:25.

majority of Muslim people are... Are opposed to this, we need to have a

:41:26.:41:29.

series of practical programmes, court to have education, not just

:41:30.:41:31.

the Muslim community but other faiths as well, to understand this,

:41:32.:41:36.

to have critical thinking so that you can challenge the ideas of the

:41:37.:41:39.

extremists, because they are very simple and actually very stupid as

:41:40.:41:46.

well. If we have the arguments to use... Douglas, it is all very well

:41:47.:41:50.

to have rhetoric, rhetoric can inflame the situation, you need a

:41:51.:41:53.

careful measured view with a proper programme and properly resourced.

:41:54.:41:59.

This programme, the Prevent programme, prime example, there has

:42:00.:42:03.

been all criticism, but what is one of the unanimous issues with

:42:04.:42:07.

Prevent, almost total pushback against the policy from Day 1 from

:42:08.:42:12.

self appointed leadership of the Muslim community. That is one of the

:42:13.:42:15.

overwhelming things at prevent, people say, I have a problem with

:42:16.:42:20.

this bit, that bit, no, most people you hear from within the Muslim

:42:21.:42:23.

communities, terrific examples of people, they are against any policy,

:42:24.:42:30.

not a bit of it, they don't want any of it. I disagree. Let Hazel Blears

:42:31.:42:35.

speak. I disagree with you again, what you are saying is, the people

:42:36.:42:40.

who are anti-prevent the majority voice coming you may say that they

:42:41.:42:43.

are the majority but they are not, there is a lot of decent people in

:42:44.:42:47.

the community, young people. I'm talking about within the leadership.

:42:48.:42:50.

They have become stars and when you get the opportunity of a leadership

:42:51.:42:56.

platform, they are amazing, women, in the same place, you cannot paint

:42:57.:43:01.

everybody. I did not do that. You have been listening to this, it is

:43:02.:43:04.

quite hard to see what the policy responses. Your job, you have to

:43:05.:43:10.

pick up the pieces from the failure of a political strategy, which,

:43:11.:43:16.

which has led to terrorism, but I am not quite sure... What should we be

:43:17.:43:20.

doing? What should we be doing to stop it being your problem? What we

:43:21.:43:26.

have seen across Europe, and if you think back to the attackers from

:43:27.:43:30.

Paris, certainly one of them was able to go back to his location in

:43:31.:43:35.

Ulamek, 100 metres from where he was born and brought up, and hide from

:43:36.:43:42.

the police. -- Meulen beak. There is such a disconnect between the

:43:43.:43:46.

community and the police force, certainly in that country, what we

:43:47.:43:51.

have seen today is something going on not quite the same but along

:43:52.:43:57.

those lines in Manchester, and we need to break down communities that

:43:58.:44:02.

see themselves as insular and not linked into the rest of the state.

:44:03.:44:07.

-- Molenbeek. You said education, but Salman Abedi was educated, he

:44:08.:44:12.

went to Salford University, studying business management, he was not some

:44:13.:44:16.

illiterate whose mind had been warped... His mind was warped. Not

:44:17.:44:23.

because he wasn't educated. When I talk about education I mean

:44:24.:44:27.

education from primary school together to understand that this

:44:28.:44:32.

kind of extremism is not something that represents your faith, not

:44:33.:44:36.

something you want to be involved with, so you can be educated to a

:44:37.:44:39.

top-level but you can still be driven by this ideology. Politicians

:44:40.:44:44.

have this great faith in education, at their time, the Germans were the

:44:45.:44:50.

best educated people in the world, they ended up with Adolf Hitler.

:44:51.:44:53.

Indeed. That shows you the strength of an ideology. The importance of

:44:54.:44:58.

countering it as well but you cannot count it if you simply think that it

:44:59.:45:03.

is, that it is solvable by Hazel Blears or by Amber Rudd or anybody

:45:04.:45:07.

else coming up with a counter at the ology, these people believe they are

:45:08.:45:11.

acting in the name of their God, -- counter ideology. They may not

:45:12.:45:14.

listen to a British minister. We need to have a line to them that

:45:15.:45:18.

breaks to the heart of their warped ideology. What does that mean? What

:45:19.:45:25.

does it mean? Douglas, what is the policy response? Not the metaphor.

:45:26.:45:31.

The first thing is, politicians and others have too acknowledged that

:45:32.:45:34.

when these things happen, instead of learning from them," coming

:45:35.:45:37.

together" and all of this, we did not want this to happen, we never

:45:38.:45:42.

wanted to get to this place where we had people, including first and

:45:43.:45:44.

second generation immigrants in this country blowing people up at pop

:45:45.:45:48.

concerts. There is no single way to deal with it but one of the worst

:45:49.:45:51.

ways to deal with it is when people like Andy Burnham, unfortunately,

:45:52.:45:54.

now the mayor of Manchester, campaigned not only to prevent

:45:55.:45:59.

Prevent -- scrap Prevent but not even suggesting something to go in

:46:00.:46:06.

its place, the current strategy has all sorts of flaws but it is the

:46:07.:46:09.

best and we need some kind of strategy, preferable to no strategy

:46:10.:46:11.

at all. On that we are agreed. The Manchester attack happened

:46:12.:46:18.

four years to the day since Fusilier Lee Rigby

:46:19.:46:20.

was murdered by two extremists near his barracks in Woolwich,

:46:21.:46:22.

south-east London. And the last two and a half years

:46:23.:46:24.

has seen yet more attacks, as the so-called Islamic State has

:46:25.:46:27.

encouraged its supporters to launch Back in January 2015 a pair

:46:28.:46:30.

of masked men killed 12 people at the office of the satirical

:46:31.:46:34.

magazine Charlie Hebdo, before killing five other people

:46:35.:46:36.

in and around Paris. Later that year,

:46:37.:46:41.

Paris was hit again. This time a group of a gunmen

:46:42.:46:45.

and suicide bombers attacked the Bataclan concert hall and other

:46:46.:46:47.

sites around the city, The next month, a lone

:46:48.:46:50.

attacker inspired by Islamic State attempted to behead

:46:51.:46:54.

a passenger in the ticket hall of Leytonstone tube

:46:55.:46:57.

station in east London. Then,

:46:58.:47:03.

in March 2016, Brussels was hit airport and one at a metro station

:47:04.:47:04.

near EU institutions. In July,

:47:05.:47:09.

as France celebrated Bastille Day, a truck mowed through a crowd

:47:10.:47:15.

of people on the Nice seafront. In December, a similar

:47:16.:47:18.

attack saw a lorry plough into a crowd of people

:47:19.:47:32.

at a Berlin Christmas market. Then in March, five people

:47:33.:47:34.

were murdered when Khalid Masood launched a car and knife attack

:47:35.:47:47.

here in Westminster. a man

:47:48.:47:49.

carrying knives near parliament police and arrested on suspicion

:47:50.:47:52.

of terrorism offences. I joined now by Charlie Winther from

:47:53.:48:12.

the international centre for counterterrorism and Adam Deen from

:48:13.:48:18.

the Quilliam Foundation. When you see that litany of appalling

:48:19.:48:21.

terrorist attacks and what we know about Abedi in Manchester, what is

:48:22.:48:29.

the theme? What is the common denominator? We are seeing the

:48:30.:48:33.

aftermath of two decades of Islamist ideology running a mock. We are

:48:34.:48:40.

seeing the effects of their not being a strong counter narrative.

:48:41.:48:46.

Young Muslims are taking on this ideology of Islam is and

:48:47.:48:50.

understanding it to be an authentic representation and acting upon it,

:48:51.:48:57.

thinking that they are serving God. But is the lack of a counter

:48:58.:49:02.

narrative, Charlie winter, is that partly the fault of the Islamic

:49:03.:49:05.

immunity, that they haven't built a strong enough counter to the

:49:06.:49:13.

Islamist ideology? It is important to keep in mind that it is a tiny

:49:14.:49:17.

minority of people that think any of this stuff is a good idea. But it

:49:18.:49:24.

can cause so much pain. So the size of it, in a way, doesn't matter if

:49:25.:49:29.

you can kill 22 innocent people at a pop concert. Of course it doesn't.

:49:30.:49:33.

Let's not detract from the scale of the atrocity. But at the same time,

:49:34.:49:39.

when you are looking for a better way to counter this, we need to

:49:40.:49:42.

recognise that it is a small number of people. But what do we do? What

:49:43.:49:53.

I'm saying is that we can look to the Muslim community and ask them to

:49:54.:49:56.

do more. The fact of the matter is that people like Abedi don't listen,

:49:57.:50:01.

however. There is only so far you can go with that line. Do you think

:50:02.:50:05.

that is because there hasn't been a strong enough challenge to it? Isis

:50:06.:50:10.

's fringe, but the problem is that the Muslim community shares a broad

:50:11.:50:15.

spectrum of beliefs with the likes of Isis. They share? They share it.

:50:16.:50:21.

And that is something we need to have a candid discussion about.

:50:22.:50:28.

Often, these discussions of extremism and the medieval theology

:50:29.:50:34.

that supports these acts, it has almost been muted. It is time to

:50:35.:50:38.

have an honest discussion. Let me be clear. You are saying there are

:50:39.:50:43.

views within the mainstream Muslim community, which would be appalled

:50:44.:50:47.

at what happened in Manchester, but they have something in common with

:50:48.:50:51.

Islamic State ideology? Voids are there to be filled. If you're

:50:52.:51:00.

Islamic education talk about an Islamic State, a utopian Islamic

:51:01.:51:04.

State, talking about dividing the world in terms of good and evil,

:51:05.:51:11.

these concepts can be exploited by Islamist extremists. That is what is

:51:12.:51:17.

happening. Charlie Winter? I would be wary of saying there is a large

:51:18.:51:26.

number of perhaps I misinterpreted it, but I think the vast majority of

:51:27.:51:33.

people would be adamant in saying that they have no part in believing

:51:34.:51:41.

anything that the Islamic State does. Whether that is contradicted

:51:42.:51:48.

by a belief in the caliphate ultimately being an important part

:51:49.:51:51.

of Islam is a different thing. But in this context, that is important.

:51:52.:51:58.

But is the Muslim community in general, because in the end, they

:51:59.:52:04.

are the best people to do it on the well-known principle that only Nixon

:52:05.:52:07.

could go to China, the best people to do this is the Muslim community

:52:08.:52:11.

itself, which oppose what is going on. Are they doing enough to make

:52:12.:52:18.

sure that the kind of messages that Abedi was clearly getting to cause

:52:19.:52:21.

him to carry this out are not reaching people like him? Well, it

:52:22.:52:29.

is limited, what they can do. But are they doing all they can do? An

:52:30.:52:36.

imam in Manchester who is moderate or mainstream will not be able to

:52:37.:52:40.

resonate with someone like Abedi. This is a world where a lot of the

:52:41.:52:44.

radical activity that used to happen in so-called radical mosques can

:52:45.:52:53.

happen easily on social media. 99% of Muslims plus condemn Isis. That

:52:54.:52:58.

is not the challenge. The challenge is to take on the ideas that give

:52:59.:53:03.

oxygen to extremist narratives. In terms of mosques and imams, it is

:53:04.:53:06.

not so much what they are saying or doing, it is what they are not

:53:07.:53:12.

saying. We need to inculcate values of human rights, democracy and

:53:13.:53:17.

freedom in young Muslim minds so that they can be inoculated from

:53:18.:53:24.

extremist narratives. But even if we were to get this right, and I get

:53:25.:53:27.

the sense that we are a long way from getting it right, we are

:53:28.:53:32.

closing the stable door after the horse has bolted? We have learned

:53:33.:53:36.

that Abedi was in Libya. We think he might have been in Syria as well. We

:53:37.:53:43.

are told about 350 Islamic fighters who had been in Syria or Islamic

:53:44.:53:47.

State areas are back in the Manchester area. They have been

:53:48.:53:50.

radicalised. It is too late for them. And the two multiplying

:53:51.:53:56.

factors we need to remember is the ease of travel, which we have all

:53:57.:54:00.

got now, and the ease of communication, which means the very

:54:01.:54:07.

small percentage of the radicals, the idiots, can communicate and talk

:54:08.:54:10.

to each other and effectively multiply what they do. And of

:54:11.:54:15.

course, one terrorist attack is a huge issue across the world. And

:54:16.:54:21.

everyone now sees it. And individuals can talk to each other

:54:22.:54:25.

on the other side of the world, which was never possible even a

:54:26.:54:29.

generation ago. Is it going to get worse before it gets better? I think

:54:30.:54:35.

so. I think Pandora's box has opened. We will leave it there.

:54:36.:54:48.

As we have said, political campaigning has been resumed in the

:54:49.:54:52.

wake of the Manchester attack, but the Ukip leader Paul Nuttall has

:54:53.:54:54.

said he will resume tomorrow. We don't know what the main parties

:54:55.:54:58.

will do. Norman Smith joins us from Downing Street.

:54:59.:55:02.

Is there any sign of a restart of the campaign? The only sign of it is

:55:03.:55:10.

Ukip going solo. They will start campaigning tomorrow with the launch

:55:11.:55:15.

of their manifesto on the grounds, says their leader Paul Nuttall, that

:55:16.:55:19.

not to do so would be a victory for the terrorists, that democracy

:55:20.:55:27.

cannot be cowed by a terrorist act. There will have been two days of

:55:28.:55:31.

non-campaigning as a mark of respect and tomorrow is an appropriate time

:55:32.:55:35.

to start. I think they will be doing so on their own. I detect no

:55:36.:55:39.

inclination from any of the other main parties to join them. The

:55:40.:55:44.

language from Government is that they are talking about several more

:55:45.:55:49.

days before campaigning resumes. I presume that means probably

:55:50.:55:54.

stretching into the weekend. Who knows, maybe even beyond the Bank

:55:55.:55:59.

Holiday Monday. The SNP are also beginning to calculate that their

:56:00.:56:03.

manifesto may have to wait for next week. In terms of labour, they would

:56:04.:56:09.

like to get on with it because they feel they were building up a degree

:56:10.:56:13.

of momentum and that if there is any politics around this, it probably

:56:14.:56:19.

plays more to the advantage of the government. That said, I don't think

:56:20.:56:22.

they will break ranks and suddenly start campaigning. My expectation is

:56:23.:56:27.

that Ukip will have their launch tomorrow, which will be hugely

:56:28.:56:30.

controversial and most of the questions will not be about their

:56:31.:56:33.

manifesto, but about whether it is appropriate to restart the campaign

:56:34.:56:39.

when you have still got children in hospital with very serious injuries.

:56:40.:56:43.

And we have a life counterterrorism operation goes on and maybe a

:56:44.:56:50.

continuing terrorist threat. It sounds like the campaign proper may

:56:51.:56:55.

not begin again until Tuesday, which would mean in the middle of a

:56:56.:56:59.

general election, a whole week of campaigning is lost because of what

:57:00.:57:04.

happened in Manchester. That is a possibility. I would caution,

:57:05.:57:11.

though, that I understand there has been no formal decision within

:57:12.:57:14.

government about exactly when to restart. That is partly because of

:57:15.:57:21.

the nature of the counterterrorism operation, the fact that the risk

:57:22.:57:24.

has now been raised to critical. Troops are going to be deployed.

:57:25.:57:29.

There is clearly a nervousness and anxiety that this man, Salman Abedi,

:57:30.:57:33.

had associates and was maybe part of a network. In other words, there is

:57:34.:57:39.

a potential life threat. I think any Prime Minister would be very wary

:57:40.:57:42.

about returning to an election campaign in that context. There is

:57:43.:57:48.

also a respect factor and how the public would react to politicians

:57:49.:57:56.

shouting the odds at each other if people in danger of losing their

:57:57.:58:00.

lives and still have children in hospital. Indeed. Thank you for

:58:01.:58:09.

that. That is a problem. The names of those who lost their lives are

:58:10.:58:13.

still coming out. There are heartbreaking pictures of youngsters

:58:14.:58:22.

just starting out in life. Given the abilities of our security services,

:58:23.:58:24.

I would think we will see breakthroughs in the next 48 to 72

:58:25.:58:33.

hours. I really hope so. We are at the beginning of this terrorist

:58:34.:58:38.

incident, I believe. We have seen in other terrorist incidents, lots of

:58:39.:58:43.

people being arrested in flats and bombs going off. So it could happen

:58:44.:58:46.

again. Chris, thank you very much. The one o'clock news is starting

:58:47.:58:49.

over on BBC One now. We've made great strides

:58:50.:58:54.

tackling HIV. Imagine if we could

:58:55.:59:04.

create a movement

:59:05.:59:07.

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