25/05/2017 Daily Politics


25/05/2017

Andrew Neil is joined by former deputy prime minister Lord Prescott for the latest on the Manchester terror attack and the launch of Ukip's manifesto.


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Manchester police say they will no longer share intelligence

:00:37.:00:44.

about Monday's bomb attack with their US counterparts,

:00:45.:00:46.

after more information, including photographs,

:00:47.:00:49.

Have the leaks harmed the investigation, and

:00:50.:00:54.

A minute's silence is observed across the UK

:00:55.:01:15.

as the victims of Monday night's attack are remembered.

:01:16.:01:20.

Political campaigning has now resumed, but how different will it

:01:21.:01:23.

Ukip launched its manifesto this morning - will they be able to take

:01:24.:01:31.

advantage of increased concerns about security and extremism?

:01:32.:01:36.

And net migration falls by 84,000 to 248,000.

:01:37.:01:42.

Progress for the Government, but do the Conservatives have any

:01:43.:01:44.

chance of meeting their manifesto target of reducing it

:01:45.:01:46.

All that in the next hour, and with us for the duration today

:01:47.:01:58.

is the former Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott.

:01:59.:02:00.

First this morning, police investigating the Manchester Arena

:02:01.:02:07.

bomb attack have stopped sharing information with the US,

:02:08.:02:09.

UK officials were outraged when crime scene photos appearing

:02:10.:02:17.

to show debris from the attack appeared in the New York Times.

:02:18.:02:20.

The pictures show blood-stained fragments from the bomb,

:02:21.:02:23.

including a battery, shrapnel and a possible detonator.

:02:24.:02:28.

They also show the backpack used by Salman Abedi

:02:29.:02:34.

The Prime Minister is expected to raise the intelligence leak

:02:35.:02:37.

directly with President Trump at a Nato meeting in Brussels today.

:02:38.:02:42.

And in the last hour, this is what Theresa May had to say

:02:43.:02:45.

I have just chaired a meeting of Cobra, where I was updated

:02:46.:02:51.

on the extraordinary response of the police and emergency services

:02:52.:02:54.

The police have confirmed eight suspects remain in custody and that

:02:55.:03:01.

progress is being made in the case, but the threat level,

:03:02.:03:04.

as assessed by the independent Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre,

:03:05.:03:10.

will remain at critical and the public should remain vigilant.

:03:11.:03:13.

I was also briefed on Operation Temperer.

:03:14.:03:18.

Around 1,000 members of the Armed Forces are assisting

:03:19.:03:20.

the police, providing important reassurance ahead of a bank holiday

:03:21.:03:24.

Shortly, I will be travelling to a Nato summit where I will be

:03:25.:03:34.

working with international colleagues on defeating terrorism.

:03:35.:03:40.

I will make clear to President Trump that intelligence that is shared

:03:41.:03:43.

between our law enforcement agencies must remain secure.

:03:44.:03:46.

Tomorrow, I will be attending the G7 summit in Italy where I will lead

:03:47.:03:51.

a discussion on counterterrorism and on how we will work together

:03:52.:03:55.

to prevent the plotting of terrorist attacks online and to stop

:03:56.:04:00.

the spread of hateful, extremist ideology on social media.

:04:01.:04:06.

I am very grateful for the expressions of support

:04:07.:04:09.

and condolences that the UK has received from international

:04:10.:04:13.

G7 and Nato will enable us to work more closely together as we work

:04:14.:04:19.

That was the Prime Minister earlier this morning.

:04:20.:04:30.

We can speak now to our security correspondent, Frank Gardner.

:04:31.:04:33.

Starting with the leak and then the wider investigation, I'm right in

:04:34.:04:40.

thinking that it is not just a case of the New York Times correspondent

:04:41.:04:45.

speaking to his security sources, the security sources, probably the

:04:46.:04:52.

FBI, I would guess, did not just guide his hand, they passed this

:04:53.:04:56.

pictures and data to him? Am I right to find that remarkable? You are

:04:57.:05:02.

right and it is deeply shocking. It comes just hours after the Home

:05:03.:05:05.

Secretary, Amber Rudd, had voiced her irritation at the fact the name

:05:06.:05:10.

of the bomber which the police wanted to keep secret until they

:05:11.:05:13.

were ready for it to be released, that was revealed to NBC news, it

:05:14.:05:18.

was leaked out of US intelligence, she said. She said, Richard never

:05:19.:05:22.

happen again. It did happen again and in a far worse way -- it should

:05:23.:05:29.

never happen again. It is deeply disrespectful to the families of the

:05:30.:05:32.

victims. These are pictures of the device that killed their loved ones,

:05:33.:05:37.

they should not have to see this, certainly not splashed across the

:05:38.:05:40.

media like this. Secondly, there is the operational aspect of it. It is

:05:41.:05:47.

telling the terrorist, the very people, this network, who are being

:05:48.:05:53.

hunted right now across the country, particularly in Manchester, it is

:05:54.:05:56.

telling them how much is known, giving them clues about what has

:05:57.:06:01.

survived from the blast. That is an initiator, slightly different from a

:06:02.:06:08.

detonator. It is also damaging to the whole US- UK intelligence

:06:09.:06:12.

sharing arrangement which is part of the five eyes arrangement where the

:06:13.:06:18.

US and UK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada, they share information.

:06:19.:06:21.

Under that arrangement, the country that provides the information owns

:06:22.:06:27.

it, meaning no one else can share it with anybody else unless they go

:06:28.:06:31.

back to the source country and say, would you mind if we share it? If

:06:32.:06:35.

someone said, do you mind if we splashed this across the New York

:06:36.:06:39.

Times? Britain is very unlikely to say yes. My understanding is the

:06:40.:06:43.

source is it has come via liaison officers because the way it works is

:06:44.:06:48.

the US and UK have people embedded in each other's countries and the

:06:49.:06:52.

information is shared through them but somebody in one of the 16 US

:06:53.:06:57.

intelligence agencies, possibly homeland security, has shared it

:06:58.:07:01.

with media and that is what Theresa May is going to be taking issue with

:07:02.:07:09.

with Donald Trump about shortly. The British are obviously, rightly,

:07:10.:07:12.

outraged by what has happened, but they are trying to limit the damage,

:07:13.:07:19.

am I right in thinking they are not passing on more information about

:07:20.:07:24.

this particular investigation, but the wider intelligence sharing

:07:25.:07:27.

between the US and the UK, that is continuing? That is continuing,

:07:28.:07:35.

exactly. This man, -- this van, it only applies to sensitive

:07:36.:07:39.

intelligence gathered by Greater Manchester Police on the ground at

:07:40.:07:46.

the scene. It does not apply to other intelligence information that

:07:47.:07:51.

MI5 or MX six, GCHQ, what they might gather, that relationship remains

:07:52.:07:58.

intact -- MI6. It will raise questions in Whitehall about whether

:07:59.:08:02.

we can trust the Americans. This has come just days after Donald Trump

:08:03.:08:05.

was accused of telling the Russians more than he should have done about

:08:06.:08:10.

a source inside Isis in Syria which would have told them where an agent,

:08:11.:08:15.

possibly from Jordan or Israel, was hidden. It is very undermining,

:08:16.:08:21.

this, of the whole intelligence sharing relationship. Alternately,

:08:22.:08:25.

US intelligence is many times bigger and better funded than any other

:08:26.:08:29.

country's in the world, even Russia and China. That is why people in the

:08:30.:08:34.

intelligence community in Whitehall and Cheltenham will be scrambling to

:08:35.:08:40.

ring fence the relationship and say, look, this only applies to the

:08:41.:08:46.

police sourced information, not to the wider relationship. Let me come

:08:47.:08:51.

onto the investigation itself, a lot of activity in the Greater

:08:52.:08:55.

Manchester area as they tried to I assume track down a cell or

:08:56.:08:59.

bomb-making capability and who was behind it, but also, increasing

:09:00.:09:05.

Libyan connection as well. Yes, there was a slight false alarm a few

:09:06.:09:11.

minutes ago when there was a bomb disposal which rushed to what could

:09:12.:09:16.

have been an expose of device, but it turned out to be a suspect

:09:17.:09:21.

package, not a bomb. The race is on. Let us not beat around the bush. The

:09:22.:09:25.

race is on to try to find what they suspect are more devices, who knows

:09:26.:09:33.

how many, maybe one, maybe none, maybe several, but that is why we

:09:34.:09:37.

are still at critical and wide Theresa May has said Britain will

:09:38.:09:43.

remain at terrorist threat critical -- and why Theresa May has said. It

:09:44.:09:49.

does not mean it definitely will happen, but they cannot rule out the

:09:50.:09:52.

possibility because they are absolutely convinced the bomber was

:09:53.:09:56.

not working alone, he probably did not even build a device himself,

:09:57.:10:00.

chemicals were required, probably in this country, and mix together by

:10:01.:10:05.

someone who knew what they were doing, using bomb-making skills

:10:06.:10:08.

honed in the Middle East or possibly North Africa, of the same level of

:10:09.:10:13.

sophistication as the ones used in the attack in Paris in November,

:10:14.:10:17.

2015. That is why you are seeing these well armed teams going in with

:10:18.:10:27.

dogs, laser beams, rifles, assault rifles, and going in, expecting to

:10:28.:10:31.

find at certain addresses quite possibly a suicide bomber.

:10:32.:10:37.

Eventually, hopefully, they will find the device and the person who

:10:38.:10:41.

has done this. Frank Gardner, thank you for joining us on the Daily

:10:42.:10:47.

Politics today. John Prescott, quite remarkable, the leaks. As

:10:48.:10:51.

journalists, we liked scoops, but we never want to do anything that could

:10:52.:10:55.

get in the way of the security forces tracking these people down.

:10:56.:10:59.

No, and I remember at times I have written about when I am concerned

:11:00.:11:04.

about the relationship between GH CQ and the Americans because leaking

:11:05.:11:07.

has been part of an parcel of the American system -- GCHQ. What is

:11:08.:11:14.

alarming is somebody made a decision to print horrific details about a

:11:15.:11:18.

terrible incident and opened the argument about what is the value of

:11:19.:11:22.

the sharing of intelligence between the main intelligence agencies, in

:11:23.:11:25.

this case, the Americans and ourselves, and I see Theresa May who

:11:26.:11:33.

is there now to meet Donald Trump... In Brussels. One of the policies is

:11:34.:11:37.

to improve the sharing of intelligence. The question now is

:11:38.:11:41.

whether you can trust the Americans. It is a game changer. We have to

:11:42.:11:44.

rethink the whole policy. It is baffling to me, whoever did this on

:11:45.:11:50.

whether homeland security, the FBI, as Frank says, there are 16

:11:51.:11:55.

different intelligence agencies in America, what is in it for them?

:11:56.:12:00.

What is the benefit for them of giving it to the New York Times?

:12:01.:12:05.

Andrew, you know more than most. The relationship between police,

:12:06.:12:08.

intelligence and press is close. Often it is, you give us a bit of

:12:09.:12:13.

information and we will give you that. I cannot see a rational

:12:14.:12:17.

explanation because it is so horrific, given the circumstances.

:12:18.:12:21.

Making it more difficult to track down the terrorists. To be honest,

:12:22.:12:24.

there has got to be a complete review. She is talking to Mr Trump

:12:25.:12:31.

now, or President Trump, about sharing intelligence. I think she

:12:32.:12:34.

will have to go further because in the manifesto we are talking about

:12:35.:12:39.

later, she says, we have a clear terrorist strategy. There is only

:12:40.:12:42.

one line in the paper. This is a game changer. It really is. What we

:12:43.:12:48.

have been doing is not good enough, quite frankly. We have to look at

:12:49.:12:52.

this were lots of things are coming out, lots of reviews are under way,

:12:53.:12:57.

as Andy was saying in Birmingham, what the police are now saying, we

:12:58.:13:01.

cannot go on as we are and the threats are now in our city, we have

:13:02.:13:04.

to think about strategy. We will come back to that.

:13:05.:13:09.

This morning, Paul Nuttall unveiled Ukip's general election

:13:10.:13:11.

It comes as some low-key campaigning by other parties restarts

:13:12.:13:15.

Paul Nuttall pledged to tackle radical Islam.

:13:16.:13:21.

He said anybody who left the UK to fight for so-called Islamic State

:13:22.:13:24.

should forfeit their passport and never be allowed to return.

:13:25.:13:29.

The manifesto promises 20,000 extra police officers,

:13:30.:13:33.

20,000 extra troops, 7,000 extra prison officers

:13:34.:13:35.

Ukip would reduce net migration to zero within five years.

:13:36.:13:43.

And they would ban the wearing of face coverings in public places.

:13:44.:13:49.

Ukip are offering an extra ?11 billion every year for the NHS

:13:50.:13:54.

and social care by 2022, funded by cuts in foreign aid.

:13:55.:13:59.

There would be a rise in the threshold for paying income

:14:00.:14:07.

tax to ?13,500 and Ukip promise a cut in taxes for middle earners,

:14:08.:14:11.

as well as a cut in VAT on household bills.

:14:12.:14:15.

Ukip's manifesto promises to axe tuition fees for science,

:14:16.:14:21.

technology, engineering, maths and medicine.

:14:22.:14:25.

And there is a pledge to provide up to 100,000 new homes

:14:26.:14:28.

On pensions, Ukip would maintain the triple lock which sees them rise

:14:29.:14:42.

by the higher of prices, average earnings or 2.5%.

:14:43.:14:44.

Launching the manifesto, Ukip leader Paul Nuttall described

:14:45.:14:54.

the decision to launch it as a message to terrorists

:14:55.:14:56.

It is the duty today of democratic politics to confront the most

:14:57.:15:01.

serious issues of our time and a general election campaign

:15:02.:15:03.

is the most appropriate moment for those issues to be debated.

:15:04.:15:06.

It is also our chance to send a message to those

:15:07.:15:08.

who hate our way of life, our values and our democracy.

:15:09.:15:19.

The message is clear - you will not win.

:15:20.:15:21.

Expressing sympathy with those killed and maimed in Manchester

:15:22.:15:24.

is important, but it is not enough to light candles or signal our

:15:25.:15:25.

When you are a leader of a political party,

:15:26.:15:38.

you have a duty to set out how you would protect the people

:15:39.:15:41.

of your country from the threat to their entire way of life.

:15:42.:15:49.

Taking questions from journalists at the end of the launch,

:15:50.:15:52.

the BBC's political editor, Laura Kuenssberg, was loudly

:15:53.:15:54.

heckled, after suggesting to Paul Nuttall that he was trying

:15:55.:15:56.

to blame the Prime Minister for the bomb attack in Manchester.

:15:57.:16:05.

it sounds like you're near as dammit blaming the Prime Minister for this

:16:06.:16:15.

attack... Is that the BBC? You are part of the problem! Is that the

:16:16.:16:26.

BBC, by any chance? Can we have some respect, please, everybody. Please,

:16:27.:16:31.

let's be respectful. No, I am not accusing the Prime Minister, I say

:16:32.:16:36.

politicians of this country have been weak on this issue for many

:16:37.:16:39.

years. In terms of her record as Home Secretary, this is appalling, a

:16:40.:16:47.

Home Secretary who cut the number of police officers, border guards,

:16:48.:16:52.

prison officers. I'm sorry, it isn't a good record at all. But as the

:16:53.:16:57.

blaming her personally for the attack, absolutely not, I am not

:16:58.:17:00.

doing that. What I am saying is that the politicians in this country are

:17:01.:17:04.

too cowardly at the moment to face up to what the real issue is.

:17:05.:17:07.

And Ukip's Deputy Chairman, Suzanne Evans, joins us now.

:17:08.:17:10.

I understand that press launch, you said the Prime Minister "Must bear

:17:11.:17:15.

some responsibility for what happened in Manchester". I don't

:17:16.:17:20.

think so, I made it perfectly clear at the press conference that the

:17:21.:17:23.

only people to blame for the tragic events on Monday night were the

:17:24.:17:27.

terrorists who plotted and carried out this atrocity and I want to make

:17:28.:17:31.

it absolutely clear. So when you say that Mrs May must bear some

:17:32.:17:35.

responsibility, to what are you referring? I think we have had

:17:36.:17:40.

successive Labour and Conservative governments who have failed to put

:17:41.:17:43.

the security of our nation and the safety of the British people first.

:17:44.:17:47.

I think that is the first job of any government. We spelt it out at our

:17:48.:17:51.

press conference. We want to put another 20,000 police back on our

:17:52.:17:54.

streets, because that is almost about the number that have been cut

:17:55.:17:59.

over the past few years. We want to put 4000 more border guards, because

:18:00.:18:02.

that again is a number that has been cut over the past few years. We are

:18:03.:18:06.

an island, we should have a natural ability to be to detect ourselves,

:18:07.:18:10.

and yet our borders have been deliberately open, not least by John

:18:11.:18:15.

Prescott's government in 1997, where there was a deliberate attempt to go

:18:16.:18:19.

out and invite people to Britain whose way of life was fundamentally

:18:20.:18:23.

incompatible with hours. What we're saying is that the cowardly previous

:18:24.:18:28.

politicians has contributed to an environment where this kind of

:18:29.:18:32.

ideology has been allowed to flourish. But the suicide bomber,

:18:33.:18:37.

Abedi, was born in this country. What does being an island have to do

:18:38.:18:44.

with it? His parents were not born here, and it is pretty clear now

:18:45.:18:48.

that his parents were parents who perhaps helped to radicalise him as

:18:49.:18:51.

well, it sounds as if they had even a part to play in this attack. We

:18:52.:18:56.

haven't got the evidence for that yet. There is no doubt, as I said,

:18:57.:19:00.

there are people who have migrated to Britain in the past 40 years or

:19:01.:19:04.

so who have never even tried to adapt to our way of life. There has

:19:05.:19:10.

been this philosophy of more track Ashun of multiculturalism -- a

:19:11.:19:19.

philosophy of multiculturalism, where they are allowed to carry on

:19:20.:19:22.

behaving in exactly the same way as they would in their countries of

:19:23.:19:25.

origin. This is why we now have record numbers of young girls and

:19:26.:19:30.

women in this country living at risk of female genital mutilation. It is

:19:31.:19:43.

why we have on crimes, even these appalling cultural practices, and

:19:44.:19:45.

cowardly politicians have not stood against them for long enough. But

:19:46.:19:50.

for a long while the suicide bomber behaved like a normal British kid,

:19:51.:19:57.

he followed Manchester United, he played cricket committee got to

:19:58.:19:59.

Salford University. Something obviously changed, I understand

:20:00.:20:03.

that, but I don't what it has to do with the number of police on the

:20:04.:20:06.

streets or having tougher borders. These things are very complicated,

:20:07.:20:10.

we don't quite understand how this radicalisation could take place. But

:20:11.:20:15.

to say that all the politicians have to have some responsibility for this

:20:16.:20:18.

just seems to me to be spraying around blame. I think what we have

:20:19.:20:23.

to do is tackle not just the violent crimes when they occur, we have to

:20:24.:20:26.

tackle the ideology behind this as well. And unfortunately our

:20:27.:20:31.

politicians, rather than tackle the ideology, they have in many ways

:20:32.:20:35.

actually Masood shtick. So for instance, Theresa May herself has

:20:36.:20:40.

spoken about how she has no problem with sharia councils operating in

:20:41.:20:43.

Britain, she has no problem with the niqab or the burqa. To me they are

:20:44.:20:50.

unacceptable symbols of oppression against women, which she of Robbie

:20:51.:20:54.

Busher be standing against. I am not saying Ukip's manifesto will solve

:20:55.:20:58.

all these problems, but Andrew, forgot say, we have children dying,

:20:59.:21:02.

what are we supposed to do? We have to try a new approach because the

:21:03.:21:06.

current approach is not working. What is the connection between

:21:07.:21:09.

wearing the niqab and what happened on Manchester on Monday night? There

:21:10.:21:14.

is a connection because we have allowed these radical extreme

:21:15.:21:18.

ideology is a place in our society. They have, in a sense, become

:21:19.:21:22.

legitimised by, you know, I'm not saying that every Muslim woman

:21:23.:21:27.

wearing a veil is of course going to commit an atrocity. What are you

:21:28.:21:32.

saying then? It wasn't a woman wearing a niqab. We want to make a

:21:33.:21:39.

stand against these practices in Britain that are not just compatible

:21:40.:21:42.

with our values. As I say, you might not like the answer is that we give

:21:43.:21:46.

but I think in politics we have a duty to at least try and make a

:21:47.:21:51.

difference. The fact is the status quo is simply not working. Let's

:21:52.:21:56.

just here again what you have to say at the Ukip manifesto launch this

:21:57.:22:00.

morning. I think she must bear some responsibility. All politicians who

:22:01.:22:06.

voted against measures, all voted for measures to make cuts, bear some

:22:07.:22:11.

responsibility. As I said, Adam, when 9/11 happened, we should have

:22:12.:22:15.

had a serious rethink about immigration. It didn't happen.

:22:16.:22:20.

Again, you link this to immigration, but it is hard to see the evidence.

:22:21.:22:27.

Can I point out that the parents of the suicide bomber came to this

:22:28.:22:31.

country because they were opposed to Gaddafi, which was also British

:22:32.:22:36.

policy at the time to be opposed to Gaddafi. They were welcomed into

:22:37.:22:39.

this country at the time, because they were seen to be on the same

:22:40.:22:45.

song sheet as British policy. You don't need to talk to me about that.

:22:46.:22:52.

So what is the problem? I was a journalist, I remember some Kurdish

:22:53.:22:55.

refugees from Iraq came into this country seeking asylum, and they

:22:56.:22:59.

were sent back home because the government said, oh, Saddam Hussein

:23:00.:23:01.

is a nice bloke, he is not gassing the Kurds. That turned out to be

:23:02.:23:06.

completed... Foreign policy does change, and misses the point, nobody

:23:07.:23:09.

seems to stand up against evil wherever they see it. How can you

:23:10.:23:14.

base and immigration policy on this couple coming in, at the time they

:23:15.:23:18.

had no children, and they come to Britain, they are fleeing Gaddafi.

:23:19.:23:22.

How can you base and immigration policy, we are not going to let you

:23:23.:23:25.

in because your kid might turn out to be a suicide bomber? How is that

:23:26.:23:30.

a rational for proceeding? Finally another those words are not in our

:23:31.:23:37.

manifesto. You are the one linking what happened in Manchester to

:23:38.:23:42.

immigration. No, we are talking separately about having a sensible

:23:43.:23:45.

immigration policy, a policy that says there are too many people

:23:46.:23:50.

coming into Britain... You have just linked immigration to the Prime

:23:51.:23:55.

Minister's responsibility of what happened. We were talking about the

:23:56.:23:58.

cuts to the border. The police force and the armed services. But he want

:23:59.:24:05.

to link it to immigration. Yes, I stand by what I said, after 9/11 we

:24:06.:24:09.

should have thought, we have this massive problem with Islamist terror

:24:10.:24:12.

in this country, maybe we should just stop letting people who share

:24:13.:24:16.

these ideals from coming in, and that is what our manifesto says

:24:17.:24:20.

today. Zero net migration over a period of five years, and to have a

:24:21.:24:24.

compatibility test so that people coming in, we can test their social

:24:25.:24:28.

values. If they are incompatible with Britain, why should we not let

:24:29.:24:32.

them in? Is there not something quite desperate about Ukip now? You

:24:33.:24:37.

have been marginalised in this election, you are no longer a threat

:24:38.:24:40.

to labour in the north and you have now decided to make immigration and

:24:41.:24:45.

what happened in Manchester your kind of last-ditch stand, and it is

:24:46.:24:51.

unsavoury. It is not unsavoury and it is also not true. The fact is

:24:52.:25:04.

Ukip have been talking about these issues were last the last three

:25:05.:25:09.

years. This manifesto, our integration ideas and policies were

:25:10.:25:12.

launched last month. This manifesto was put to bed before the Manchester

:25:13.:25:16.

incident, so don't you dare accuse us of trying to be opportunist here.

:25:17.:25:21.

We are trying to respond to a serious issue in this country that

:25:22.:25:23.

frankly the other politicians can't even speak its name, Islamist

:25:24.:25:29.

terrorism. That is pretty unsavoury too. Let's look at this one in, one

:25:30.:25:33.

out immigration policy, because your policy will now be that no matter

:25:34.:25:41.

how many doctors we need in the NHS, no matter how many high-tech skilled

:25:42.:25:50.

people we need for all the growing high-tech companies across this

:25:51.:25:53.

country we can't have any unless someone leaves the country? You are

:25:54.:25:58.

missing the point, we also saying we are abolishing tuition fees for

:25:59.:26:02.

science, engineering, medicine and maths, because we need to start

:26:03.:26:07.

training people up. But that will take years. What do we do now? You

:26:08.:26:11.

will not allow them to come in unless somebody leaves. I mean, it

:26:12.:26:17.

is a bizarre suggestion. It doesn't work like that, Andrew. This is why

:26:18.:26:21.

I made it clear, your introduction was wrong. We're not going to take

:26:22.:26:25.

migration to zero for five years, we are going to have a target of zero

:26:26.:26:30.

net migration over a five-year period. That is the same thing. No,

:26:31.:26:36.

it not. We can still have up to 300,000 migrants coming to Britain.

:26:37.:26:39.

I don't think anybody would think that is an unreasonable number. But

:26:40.:26:44.

after five years, the net migration will be zero and plan. 240,000, the

:26:45.:26:53.

latest figure, your net migration figure would be zero, and it would

:26:54.:26:59.

bear no relationship to the economic needs of this country. Of course it

:27:00.:27:03.

will. Then you can't have it at zero. Yes, because we prioritise in

:27:04.:27:10.

those 253,000 people coming in, we prioritise the skills coming in.

:27:11.:27:14.

That is why we said we will have a moratorium on unskilled labour for

:27:15.:27:18.

five years. We see absolutely no logic in having up to a million

:27:19.:27:21.

young people unemployed in a country that can do the jobs that at the

:27:22.:27:25.

moment big businesses are cynically exploiting migrants from overseas to

:27:26.:27:30.

do, instead of giving British jobs the British people, they are

:27:31.:27:39.

importing cheap labour. Unemployment is 4.2%, the lowest for 40 years, a

:27:40.:27:44.

growing economy needs more labour. And a lot of it needs to be skilled.

:27:45.:27:48.

Every politician who has ever sat in that chair has promised to do more

:27:49.:27:53.

on skills. By and large they have nearly all failed and you are now

:27:54.:27:55.

going to create a massive skill shortage in the years to come, which

:27:56.:28:01.

will undermine the economic growth of this country. All because your

:28:02.:28:06.

immigration policy says this brain surgeon Dr who wants to come to

:28:07.:28:11.

Britain cannot come in unless I retire abroad. That is what you are

:28:12.:28:16.

saying. Andrew, you are very sensible usually but I think you are

:28:17.:28:20.

hyping this up to the extreme. Our policies if you take them as a whole

:28:21.:28:23.

in our manifesto, we are putting a huge amount of money into training

:28:24.:28:29.

doctors, nurses, emergency workers, policemen, border Force control,

:28:30.:28:32.

prison officers. We are investing in these people. The great thing about

:28:33.:28:36.

Ukip 's Mac policy, unlike the other politicians who have sat in this

:28:37.:28:40.

chair and made permissive they can't keep, we know where our money is

:28:41.:28:44.

coming from. You are going to cut off aid to the poorest in the world.

:28:45.:28:50.

We are going to keep a at 0.2% of GNI and we will be paying the same

:28:51.:28:54.

percentage wise as America and more in cash terms than Spain and Italy.

:28:55.:29:02.

I would not be in new cup -- be in Ukip in writing that manifesto if I

:29:03.:29:06.

believed that the party was cutting off aid to the neediest in the

:29:07.:29:10.

world. We will continue to spend 4 billion in humanitarian relief, we

:29:11.:29:15.

will have a hospital ship as well to increase our policy to deliver aid

:29:16.:29:19.

around the world. John Prescott, you have been listening, what do you

:29:20.:29:25.

make of it? I welcome debates about anything, immigration is a very

:29:26.:29:29.

portland issue. The real problems come into the solution, when you

:29:30.:29:32.

start setting the target you then have to explain how you will get it

:29:33.:29:40.

down to zero. There are very real problems. But some of the facts, you

:29:41.:29:44.

know, police were actually increased under Labour, not reduced, so you

:29:45.:29:48.

can't blame us for that. They will reduce the afterwards. I just wonder

:29:49.:29:54.

when you said these skilled people, a brain surgeon... We're not going

:29:55.:30:00.

to stop any brain surgeons. What if they came from Libya or Iraq, would

:30:01.:30:05.

you deny them where they come from? Or you would let the men, or do you

:30:06.:30:10.

find out what their background was, whether parents actually supporting

:30:11.:30:13.

some radical movement, which we would encourage in Britain over in

:30:14.:30:16.

Libya? Is that the depth of enquiry you will go into the stop people

:30:17.:30:18.

coming? I think talking about a specific

:30:19.:30:27.

occupation is a little bit. We are not going to stop brain surgeons we

:30:28.:30:33.

need coming to Britain. Leave out the brain surgeon, that was

:30:34.:30:37.

mentioned. Are you going to investigate the background of people

:30:38.:30:40.

who come from countries you obviously assumed to be evil

:30:41.:30:44.

countries where there are Muslims, will you investigate... You have

:30:45.:30:47.

done it with the mother and father of the person who has been accused

:30:48.:30:51.

in Manchester. Would you go into the background to do that? We would test

:30:52.:30:56.

attitudes? What do you mean? A question at the port of entry? No,

:30:57.:31:03.

in advance, when you are replying. What sort of questions would you ask

:31:04.:31:07.

them? Would they have to say they are Muslim? They might well do. You

:31:08.:31:14.

can support the rights of women and gay people and be Muslim. You would

:31:15.:31:20.

ask, do you support gay people? Is that the kind of question you are

:31:21.:31:24.

going to subject people to who come to Britain to be a doctor? What is

:31:25.:31:30.

your answer? You went out seeking migrants whose views were

:31:31.:31:33.

incompatible with the British way of life because you wanted to rob the

:31:34.:31:38.

nose of the right into diversity. No. I did not believe in a federal

:31:39.:31:45.

Europe which presumably is what you believe in as well, you do not want

:31:46.:31:50.

that Europe structure, what will Eastern European countries do? There

:31:51.:31:53.

were people like me and others who thought, let us get them into the

:31:54.:31:57.

European Community and then they will be a better political balance

:31:58.:32:01.

between the strength of France and Germany. These are strategic

:32:02.:32:06.

decisions for me. It went well. Are: it can give them jobs. Taking jobs

:32:07.:32:15.

from our young people. -- our economy can give them jobs. It is

:32:16.:32:18.

kind of a motivation you are faced with. These are normal economic

:32:19.:32:22.

facts. You want to make it look evil, if you are from certain

:32:23.:32:26.

countries, if you are wearing a burqa, you are feeding the fears

:32:27.:32:30.

causing problems in this country today. That is the connection to

:32:31.:32:35.

Manchester. You are feeding the fears. You are not facing up to the

:32:36.:32:43.

reality of Islamist terror. Let the electorate decide. We will leave it

:32:44.:32:46.

there. Suzanne Evans, thank you for coming in on the day of the

:32:47.:32:51.

manifesto launch. We are getting a briefing that the suicide bomber in

:32:52.:32:57.

Manchester, Salman Abedi, he was one of a larger pool of what called

:32:58.:33:03.

former subjects of interests who remain subject of review by MI5 and

:33:04.:33:08.

other security institutions. It was pointed out MI5 is managing around

:33:09.:33:15.

500 active investigations at any one time involving some 3000 subjects of

:33:16.:33:20.

interest at any one time which I think gives us an idea of the scale

:33:21.:33:25.

of the challenge that faces the security services at a time like

:33:26.:33:26.

this. So, what can politicians do to try

:33:27.:33:31.

and prevent attacks like the one we saw in Manchester

:33:32.:33:34.

on Monday night? Well, we've seen what Ukip have

:33:35.:33:35.

to offer, but let's take a look at what some of the other political

:33:36.:33:39.

parties' manifestos have to say The Conservative Party say that,

:33:40.:33:41.

if they're re-elected, they would set up a Commission

:33:42.:33:44.

for Countering Extremism which, they say, would identify examples

:33:45.:33:47.

of extremism and expose them. They would also consider creating

:33:48.:33:49.

new criminal offences to try and help police

:33:50.:33:52.

and prosecutors tackle extremists. And they would create a new national

:33:53.:33:59.

infrastructure police force to protect key strategic locations

:34:00.:34:01.

across the country, like railway As for Labour, they would carry out

:34:02.:34:04.

a review of the anti-radicalisation Prevent programme to address

:34:05.:34:12.

the concern that it can, in their words, alienate

:34:13.:34:14.

minority communities. Labour would also bring

:34:15.:34:18.

in new judicial oversight of the investigatory powers used

:34:19.:34:20.

by the authorities. And an incoming Labour government

:34:21.:34:24.

would recruit an extra 10,000 police The Liberal Democrats would scrap

:34:25.:34:26.

the Prevent programme and replace it with a scheme more focused

:34:27.:34:33.

on what they call And the Lib Dems say they would roll

:34:34.:34:39.

back state surveillance powers. They say that people should be

:34:40.:34:44.

notified when they've been placed under surveillance,

:34:45.:34:46.

if, in their words, that can be done without jeopardising

:34:47.:34:49.

ongoing investigations. As for the SNP, we don't yet

:34:50.:34:50.

have their manifesto. But in their last one,

:34:51.:34:54.

for the Scottish Parliament elections in 2016, they said

:34:55.:34:58.

that they would continue to work closely with partners in the UK,

:34:59.:35:01.

and further afield, to tackle We're joined now by the director

:35:02.:35:03.

of the right of centre think tank, Policy Exchange, Dean Godson,

:35:04.:35:10.

and Raffaello Pantucci of the security think tank,

:35:11.:35:14.

the Royal United Services Institute. Welcome to both of you. From what

:35:15.:35:24.

you have seen of the parties policies, are you impressed? A lot

:35:25.:35:30.

of good stuff in there. Firstly, the national extremism commission, the

:35:31.:35:36.

issue of ideology and upstream extremists views on the national

:35:37.:35:41.

agenda, online extremism, powers, the new proposed powers, they are

:35:42.:35:49.

extremely welcome. The broader policies for national

:35:50.:35:51.

infrastructure... What would the commission do? Name and shame, put a

:35:52.:35:56.

sharp focus on those groupings that are not doing enough to combat the

:35:57.:36:05.

grievance culture, the culture of extremism, the upstream ideology of

:36:06.:36:07.

anti-British narratives, Lord Carlisle started it in his oversight

:36:08.:36:13.

of the review in 2011, it needs to be weaponised now and this is a good

:36:14.:36:17.

way of starting it. What do you make of it? I am struck by how little

:36:18.:36:23.

there is in the manifestos. Dean is right, there is detailed in the Tory

:36:24.:36:28.

one which demonstrates a certain level of thought, but Lib Dem and

:36:29.:36:33.

Labour, they are only talking about surveillance powers and ABBA

:36:34.:36:37.

prevent. What is striking is that the to which it has not been a focus

:36:38.:36:42.

of the election campaign so far -- and Prevent. The mainstream

:36:43.:36:47.

politicians are running out of ideas? Like cancer, the problem of

:36:48.:36:55.

extremism, violent extremism, it keeps metastasising, new forms and

:36:56.:36:58.

sources, some pretty old sources, many problems over the years with

:36:59.:37:04.

Libya from the IRA time, the PC Fletcher think, pro and anti-Gaddafi

:37:05.:37:11.

people... Those fighting cancer are coming up with amazing new ideas

:37:12.:37:14.

every day to tackle it, that is not the case of politicians trying to

:37:15.:37:20.

fight the cancer of terrorism. Everybody has got to raise their

:37:21.:37:25.

game, but this is a more complex... This is, shall we say, art, not

:37:26.:37:29.

science, not medical science, and if you look at past measures, 2011

:37:30.:37:35.

Prevent review, everyone said it would drive elements of the Muslim

:37:36.:37:39.

community into the corner, it did not. Some of the most extreme

:37:40.:37:43.

manifestations of extremism have been damped down. They are now

:37:44.:37:48.

coming back and that is why we have to keep ahead of the game and that

:37:49.:37:52.

is why these measures in the manifesto, the Conservative

:37:53.:37:56.

manifesto, are particularly useful. If the parties consulted you for

:37:57.:38:01.

advice on this, what would you have told them? Talking about

:38:02.:38:05.

counterterrorism, you are talking out something very technical and

:38:06.:38:10.

involving people and the skills required to investigate and disrupt

:38:11.:38:13.

networks, it is fairly technical, someone fighting a political

:38:14.:38:16.

campaign, they will not be well-placed to delve into the detail

:38:17.:38:20.

of it. I would argue that side of it, they describe as pursue and

:38:21.:38:26.

protect and how to protect people, do the investigations, that is one

:38:27.:38:29.

piece which I think broadly there is a consensus we are moving the right

:38:30.:38:33.

direction, leave it to the professionals. That is probably the

:38:34.:38:37.

right approach. The question is the Prevent part and that is the

:38:38.:38:41.

forward-looking part, how do we get ahead of the curve? Can you stop

:38:42.:38:45.

people becoming subjects of investigations, so they not get

:38:46.:38:49.

involved in the networks? What I would argue is when we are looking

:38:50.:38:53.

at the Prevent space, it is quite broad. On some sites, it is about

:38:54.:38:57.

managing people who have been radicalised, been to an

:38:58.:39:01.

investigation, maybe been to prison, come out and what do you do with

:39:02.:39:06.

them? You know they have experience which requires careful management.

:39:07.:39:11.

Prevent also includes the other end of the spectrum, much more about

:39:12.:39:14.

community engagement, trying to work with communities of young people may

:39:15.:39:19.

be from which we have seen some individual radicals emerge. I would

:39:20.:39:22.

argue sticking these together under the broad umbrella of Prevent might

:39:23.:39:27.

be sticking a bit too much and it might be a question of separating

:39:28.:39:30.

things out and trying to break away the peace of the softer end and

:39:31.:39:34.

putting it into a non-security environment and keeping the other

:39:35.:39:38.

part which is clearly still a security question in that space.

:39:39.:39:42.

John Prescott, Labour invented Prevent. It was a way to stop the

:39:43.:39:47.

spread of Islamist ideas in the Muslim community. Now your party's

:39:48.:39:50.

manifesto seems more worried about its potential to alienate minority

:39:51.:39:56.

communities? When you talk within the community, they feel that they

:39:57.:40:02.

are the enemy and you report on human is threatening and that has

:40:03.:40:11.

questioned the role of it -- you report on who is threatening. The

:40:12.:40:15.

big issue we are avoiding. How do you bring all of the parts together?

:40:16.:40:20.

Politicians, as we see in the manifestos, they say there is a

:40:21.:40:24.

reduction in the police, 1600 armed police go missing, you bring in 1600

:40:25.:40:30.

armed soldiers, 20,000 police means they are not able to do an effective

:40:31.:40:38.

job. The firemen reduced, nurses, reduced. Political argument, if we

:40:39.:40:43.

get out of that, we put it in the manifesto, that is right, but if we

:40:44.:40:46.

want to really deal with it, we need to deal with it at the community

:40:47.:40:51.

level. Prevent was the start, but unfortunately, the way it has

:40:52.:40:55.

developed, the blood critical. -- people are critical. All politicians

:40:56.:41:01.

come to an agreement that what the cities need to be safe and secure it

:41:02.:41:06.

is proper public services, deal with the anti-terrorism, it is not

:41:07.:41:09.

mentioned in the Tories what the policy means, perhaps we need to get

:41:10.:41:16.

down and talk about it. I would go further. Regime change in the

:41:17.:41:20.

Mideast has not helped. Libya, Mr Cameron went there, Mr Blair was

:41:21.:41:23.

talking about it, but the policy came out to place the regime and

:41:24.:41:30.

joint rebels. We back one side and basically that is making it more

:41:31.:41:37.

difficult to deal with. To go now to Nato and talk to Trump and he goes

:41:38.:41:43.

to Saudi Arabia and says... Someone has called it going back to the

:41:44.:41:46.

Crusades. Was it the American president who said it was a crusade?

:41:47.:41:53.

There is a war going on about culture, religion, we have got to

:41:54.:41:56.

sit down and ask ourselves, what do we do in this country? It is no

:41:57.:42:02.

longer like with the IRA and others, this is individuals, they think they

:42:03.:42:09.

have to do is running to help the people and they do this terrible

:42:10.:42:11.

thing which has happened in Manchester. -- they think they have

:42:12.:42:17.

to do something. You have to think about what is motivating it and you

:42:18.:42:21.

have to get into the community. This does not look like a low wall. Libya

:42:22.:42:25.

was a broken society long before David Cameron became Prime Minister

:42:26.:42:30.

or even Tony Blair trying to bring in Gaddafi from the cold. But they

:42:31.:42:38.

were holding it together. It spills over here, it does not stop there.

:42:39.:42:43.

The Libyan community in this country, on the basis of what they

:42:44.:42:47.

are saying, let us find out if it was so, the findings were ignored.

:42:48.:42:54.

Prevent, far from being oppressive... Whether you call it

:42:55.:42:59.

Prevent or something else, the fact is, the job of the security services

:43:00.:43:06.

is to deal with things when Prevent has failed. How do we improve

:43:07.:43:12.

Prevent? How do we reach into the Muslim communities with the leaders

:43:13.:43:15.

of the community is to stop this sort of thing from spreading? One of

:43:16.:43:20.

the interesting phrases is the question of leaders of communities.

:43:21.:43:24.

That was one of the policies under elements of the last Labour

:43:25.:43:29.

government, big disagreements between Hazel Blears and Jack Straw,

:43:30.:43:33.

whether community leaders were the right way to behave, why do we

:43:34.:43:37.

behave within a new imperialist way within our own borders? The leaders

:43:38.:43:44.

do not necessarily represent... If not leaders, what do we do? We treat

:43:45.:43:50.

them like citizens like anyone else, we have engagement at grassroots, we

:43:51.:43:54.

have to up our game. There has been a stalemate at the top end and we

:43:55.:43:59.

need to engage more closely at the grassroots with citizens, with

:44:00.:44:02.

Muslim citizens, of whatever affiliation. Final comment from you?

:44:03.:44:07.

I have spoken to lots of people working on Prevent rogue runs around

:44:08.:44:13.

the country and they come back with very positive comments about the

:44:14.:44:15.

specific programme they having gauged in. That is what we have to

:44:16.:44:20.

remember. On the ground, it seems to work. There are very loud voices

:44:21.:44:24.

that dominate the conversation publicly. We have to not get

:44:25.:44:28.

distracted by that. The policy in some parts does work. Maybe we need

:44:29.:44:35.

to take some of the softer elements, though not the harder end of

:44:36.:44:38.

security, and shift them out of the security space. I thank you both.

:44:39.:44:44.

Now, yesterday saw almost 1,000 troops deployed on our streets

:44:45.:44:47.

to backfill for the police while the terror threat level

:44:48.:44:49.

is raised to critical following the Manchester bombing.

:44:50.:44:51.

That means an attack may be imminent.

:44:52.:44:53.

Troops will be used to guard important buildings, so the army

:44:54.:44:56.

We also saw members of the Army stationed in Whitehall,

:44:57.:44:59.

Downing Street and at Buckingham Palace.

:45:00.:45:00.

The head of the Met Police, Cressida Dick, said having soldiers

:45:01.:45:03.

to do these patrols helped free up the police at this difficult time.

:45:04.:45:10.

Whilst we're at critical, and there is the possibility

:45:11.:45:12.

of a further attack, we want to be able to support

:45:13.:45:15.

the public as best we can, and to protect them as best we can,

:45:16.:45:18.

and we believe we need more armed officers on the streets.

:45:19.:45:22.

So putting military colleagues on what I would call static posts,

:45:23.:45:27.

in this case the Palace of Westminster, allows us to put

:45:28.:45:32.

police officers with firearms in greater numbers out

:45:33.:45:33.

That is the new head of the ledger Poulton police, Britain's most

:45:34.:45:51.

important police chief. -- the head of the Metropolitan Police Service

:45:52.:45:53.

We're joined now by Steve White, chair of the Police Federation,

:45:54.:45:56.

the staff association for police constables, sergeants

:45:57.:46:00.

is deployment of the military on streets, is it anything more than

:46:01.:46:04.

symbolic? I never thought I would see the day, to be perfectly frank,

:46:05.:46:07.

and we have to recognise that was these events are fast moving, the

:46:08.:46:10.

brilliant response of the emergency services and the police service as a

:46:11.:46:14.

whole has been second to none. However, and of course the support

:46:15.:46:18.

of military colleagues are clearly needed. They are clearly needed

:46:19.:46:22.

because unfortunately, in a situation such as this, the current

:46:23.:46:25.

police service is not structured to deal with it in a prolonged way. Of

:46:26.:46:29.

course what happened on Monday night, the response by officers in

:46:30.:46:32.

Greater Manchester, as happened on the 22nd of March, has been

:46:33.:46:37.

absolutely superb. But this is about a sustained level of threat, and by

:46:38.:46:41.

virtue of our saying that armed military are having to replace armed

:46:42.:46:44.

police officers in order to release that resource, it clearly sends a

:46:45.:46:51.

concerning message. I understand that, but let's put the picture and

:46:52.:46:54.

see this, because as you say it is quite a remarkable picture. If we

:46:55.:46:59.

can just get it up on the screen, to see our police officers going down

:47:00.:47:04.

the streets with armed soldiers. We haven't been able to get the picture

:47:05.:47:10.

up there. Yes, there we have it. It is worth dwelling on that to see in

:47:11.:47:16.

Britain in the summer of 2017. But it is only as I understand it

:47:17.:47:24.

several hundred. The French are deploying 10,000 troops a day across

:47:25.:47:27.

France, you see them everywhere you go, not just in Paris. I left from a

:47:28.:47:35.

provincial TGV train station recently, four well armed soldiers

:47:36.:47:39.

going up and down the station before we got onto this train. We are not

:47:40.:47:45.

at that level yet or anywhere near it, which is why I just suggest it

:47:46.:47:52.

seems to be more symbolic than of any real practical impact. It

:47:53.:47:56.

provides a practical impact because it releases officers in order to be

:47:57.:47:59.

available should something else happened. But I think the main

:48:00.:48:03.

difference with policing in the UK and policing abroad is about this

:48:04.:48:09.

policing by consent model. It is about embedding the police service

:48:10.:48:13.

within local communities, which is so vitally important. That is worth

:48:14.:48:18.

many, many, many soldiers and military personnel on the street.

:48:19.:48:21.

The lesson that has to be learned from these awful incidents has got

:48:22.:48:26.

to be armed police officers being deployed are not going to prevent

:48:27.:48:29.

further attacks. They are going to be a better respond to the attack.

:48:30.:48:33.

What we have got to concentrate on is how we prevented the first place.

:48:34.:48:40.

-- prevent it in the first place was the first point of a police

:48:41.:48:43.

constable is prevention of a crime in the first place. It is making

:48:44.:48:46.

sure we invest the time and the energy and the resources and the

:48:47.:48:49.

specialisms to get into the communities, those hard to reach

:48:50.:48:53.

areas, so that this 22-year-old who carried out this awful atrocity is

:48:54.:48:58.

known to local people. Local people have trust and confidence to be able

:48:59.:49:03.

to... But he was, even with the cut in police numbers, and I know you

:49:04.:49:07.

share my concern about that, Salman Abedi was known to the police.

:49:08.:49:12.

Friends reported him to the anti-terrorism hotline five years

:49:13.:49:17.

ago. He was flagged -- flying a flag that looked like an Isis symbol from

:49:18.:49:22.

his window, Arabic writing on it, he was loudly repeating prayers and the

:49:23.:49:25.

Koran in the streets. People thought that's strange. It wasn't a lack of

:49:26.:49:31.

police numbers, there is a failure somewhere that is not to do with

:49:32.:49:34.

numbers. Don't forget that actually what has happened over the past five

:49:35.:49:39.

years is the cut in police on a bus, chief constables are having to make

:49:40.:49:44.

very difficult decisions, that has involved cutting our firearms

:49:45.:49:47.

capability and embedded neighbourhood policing. It is not

:49:48.:49:51.

about having police officers responding to calls but having

:49:52.:49:56.

people who know your communities, asking the question is, why hasn't

:49:57.:50:00.

this person been seen? All of this kind of stuff is very difficult to

:50:01.:50:06.

measure of course, in terms of outcomes and key performance

:50:07.:50:09.

indicators. Which we are not supposed to have any more but we

:50:10.:50:13.

sort of still do. It is easy to measure some things, but it is very

:50:14.:50:16.

difficult to measure the neighbourhood of neighbourhood --

:50:17.:50:19.

the amount of neighbourhood policing and increasing that level of

:50:20.:50:23.

confidence. We have to make sure these things are there. I predicted

:50:24.:50:29.

two years ago that we would end up with a paramilitary style of

:50:30.:50:32.

policing, and if that is what the public wants, that is what we can

:50:33.:50:36.

provide. The image you had on the screen is the stark potentiality of

:50:37.:50:42.

that. It hasn't happened yet. I am not here to talk about politics, but

:50:43.:50:48.

policing, I am asking every politician to raise the debate, ask

:50:49.:50:52.

what they would like to see from their government, and I think they

:50:53.:50:55.

would like to see more police officers and less military on the

:50:56.:51:00.

streets. We brought in community policing, the community talks to

:51:01.:51:03.

their own people and they pass it onto the police. If you go and tell

:51:04.:51:08.

a police constable or a soldier, that prevents the community telling

:51:09.:51:11.

you what is going on, whether it is the black flag. We lost thousands of

:51:12.:51:16.

the community policing. When you mean community policing, you might

:51:17.:51:22.

mean a policeman, but there is this go between the police and the

:51:23.:51:25.

public, the community police use to fill it in and people trusted them

:51:26.:51:28.

to pass on the information to the authorities. This is becoming

:51:29.:51:31.

increasingly clear, they don't tell anybody. We need to end it there but

:51:32.:51:34.

we thank you for coming in. Now, it's emerged that

:51:35.:51:37.

the Manchester Arena bomber, Salman Abedi, returned from Libya

:51:38.:51:39.

just days before Monday's attack. The Abedi family were

:51:40.:51:42.

part of a large Libyan Those travelling to and from

:51:43.:51:44.

the war-torn country are said to be of increasing concern

:51:45.:51:48.

to the security services. So, what is the Libyan connection

:51:49.:51:50.

with the Manchester attack? The face of the home-grown

:51:51.:51:52.

suicide bomber. Police have spent much

:51:53.:51:59.

of the investigation searching houses owned by family and friends

:52:00.:52:03.

of Salman Abedi in Manchester. But it's his links to Libya

:52:04.:52:07.

that could give security Yesterday, his brother, Hashem,

:52:08.:52:10.

was detained in Libya for supporting And his father, Ramadan Abedi,

:52:11.:52:15.

whose Facebook shows him supporting fighters in Syria

:52:16.:52:24.

affiliated with Al-Qaeda. And then yesterday, moments

:52:25.:52:28.

after doing this interview, The BBC understands Salman Abedi's

:52:29.:52:31.

parents fled Libya to the UK in the 1990s, along with many other

:52:32.:52:40.

opponents of Colonel In 2004, a new relationship

:52:41.:52:44.

was established between Tony Blair and Colonel Gaddafi,

:52:45.:52:50.

which the British Government hoped would help in the fight

:52:51.:52:52.

against terrorism, but it meant focus by the British intelligence

:52:53.:52:54.

sources fell on many of those dissidents who had fled Libya

:52:55.:52:59.

and come to places like Manchester, amid fears they were

:53:00.:53:01.

aligned to Al-Qaeda. They say their jihad

:53:02.:53:08.

was against Gaddafi alone. They wanted him overthrown,

:53:09.:53:13.

and by 2011, as the Arab Spring grew, many of those who had fled

:53:14.:53:16.

the UK returned to Libya to topple Gaddafi, including

:53:17.:53:19.

the Manchester bomber's father, There was no single group

:53:20.:53:21.

in charge of the rebellion, and after Gaddafi was removed,

:53:22.:53:25.

some 1,700 armed groups emerged. Crucially, the so-called

:53:26.:53:28.

Islamic State was able to gain Whereas in recent years Libya

:53:29.:53:30.

was seen as a setting off point for foreign fighters

:53:31.:53:37.

making their way to join IS in Iraq or Syria,

:53:38.:53:39.

analysts now think the country, with its easy transport routes

:53:40.:53:41.

across the Mediterranean, is a magnet for extremists,

:53:42.:53:43.

determined to bring We're joined now from Teesside

:53:44.:53:45.

by the former British Ambassador Richard Bilton, what do you think is

:53:46.:54:03.

the significance of this Libyan connection to what happened in

:54:04.:54:10.

Manchester? The security services will always have had their eyes on

:54:11.:54:13.

that connection. Hitherto, they have judged it of relatively low

:54:14.:54:21.

priority, given the multiplicity of origins of other people of interest

:54:22.:54:27.

who might take extremist action. But an important thing to remember is

:54:28.:54:32.

that the Libyans were producing jihadis for Iraq long before the

:54:33.:54:40.

state collapsed with the revolution in 2011, and the further collapse in

:54:41.:54:49.

2013. So whereas we find that our own citizens can be radicalised at

:54:50.:54:53.

home, we find that the Belgians, the French have the same problem, there

:54:54.:54:58.

is sometimes an external element. And, at the moment, with this very

:54:59.:55:02.

preliminary stage of the investigation, we just don't know

:55:03.:55:08.

what part individuals in Libya played in getting Salman Abedi to

:55:09.:55:11.

that point on Monday Night Football indeed we don't know if he was

:55:12.:55:12.

trained or radicalised in Libya. But would you agree it is pretty

:55:13.:55:23.

much a failed state and therefore fertile ground for jihadis, isn't

:55:24.:55:29.

it? As I said, it was producing jihadis long before it was a failed

:55:30.:55:33.

state, and Belgium is not exactly a failed state but just some of the

:55:34.:55:36.

worst jihadi atrocities we have seen recently. But, yes, Libya has failed

:55:37.:55:43.

to make good on the promise of the revolution in 2012 and 2013. It has

:55:44.:55:53.

fallen to bits. But remember that the Islamic State presence in an

:55:54.:56:01.

area where Libyan authorities could not go and check what was going on

:56:02.:56:04.

has been extinguished by armed action from the next-door city, Ms

:56:05.:56:13.

Rutter, and there is an -- Ms Rutter clear macro Ms

:56:14.:56:18.

Libya is not as bad as Iraq and Syria as a source of grievance. But

:56:19.:56:27.

the other thing to remember is that enhancing what perhaps Mr Prescott

:56:28.:56:30.

was saying about looking at the narrative jihadi 's use to justify

:56:31.:56:35.

their actions, that is an essential part of the Prevent strategy. At

:56:36.:56:44.

present, we are simply not doing that. Not only did we kick over the

:56:45.:56:51.

hive in 2003 in an illegal invasion of Iraq, which led to the invasion

:56:52.:56:57.

of Islamist bodies turned into Islamic State, but by supporting

:56:58.:57:00.

Saudi Arabia in the dreadful we need to act justly overseas is

:57:01.:57:15.

one part, is more part may be, but a necessary part of the overall

:57:16.:57:20.

struggle to prevent people being radicalised. So what change,

:57:21.:57:24.

Ambassador, should there be in our foreign policy to achieve that?

:57:25.:57:30.

Well, we need to rein back from the war in Yemen, which incidentally has

:57:31.:57:39.

significantly enhanced the capacity of our card. Secondly -- of our.

:57:40.:57:47.

Secondly we need to adopt a more neutral position rather than

:57:48.:57:52.

standing back between Israel and its Palestinian neighbours, as we are

:57:53.:57:57.

doing so at present. Thirdly, we need to carry on the pursuit we are

:57:58.:58:01.

already engaged in of political settlements in both Iraq and Syria,

:58:02.:58:07.

and also in Libya, to try and create stable states, long term. Just

:58:08.:58:13.

briefly, Ambassador, are you optimistic that that agenda will be

:58:14.:58:19.

adopted, or is it unlikely? At present, it's unlikely because

:58:20.:58:24.

post-Brexit commercial considerations are too dominant in

:58:25.:58:30.

our foreign policy, at the expense of the search for creative

:58:31.:58:33.

solutions. So we are thinking in terms of alliances and sale, rather

:58:34.:58:38.

than getting to the roots of problems. All right, Ambassador,

:58:39.:58:41.

thank you for joining us on the Daily Politics will stop that is it.

:58:42.:58:49.

I will be back on BBC One tonight with another addition of Isco week,

:58:50.:58:54.

I hope you can join me.

:58:55.:58:56.

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