26/05/2017 Daily Politics


26/05/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:41.

The hunt for the network behind the Manchester bomber Salman Abedi

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continues as another arrest is made and the terror threat

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remains at critical amidst fear of another device -

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In the wake of Monday's attack Jeremy Corbyn says we need

:00:52.:00:57.

a Foreign Policy that reduces rather than increases our

:00:58.:00:59.

Is the Labour leader right that the war on terror isn't working?

:01:00.:01:09.

We have their manifestos - but do the numbers in Labour

:01:10.:01:12.

and Conservative spending plans add up?

:01:13.:01:15.

And the south west of England used to be painted yellow.

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Can the Lib Dems make a comeback in their former heartlands?

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All that in the next hour and joining us for the whole

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hour are Ian Collins - he presents a radio show

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on LBC, and Rafael Behr who writes for the Guardian.

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First - eight men are now in custody in connection with Monday's bombing

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There's concern that the bomb carried by Salman Abedi was not

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the only device made by the terrorists -

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which is why the terror threat remains at critical, meaning another

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This morning, the Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, convened another meeting

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of the government's emergency committee, Cobra.

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We are still in the midst of this terror threat, with the threat level

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remaining at critical. How much support do you think the security

:02:16.:02:18.

services and the police are going to need? Clearly there will be things

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going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. At this stage so

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close to the atrocity of Monday, and with that still present in people's

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minds, I think the government and security services are asking for our

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trust and confidence that they are in control of events and doing what

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can be done. We are very much in that place where the politics of

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this have to be dialled down while we wait for the present emergency to

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pass. Amber Rudd said she did not expect this critical phase where we

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have the army on the streets to last more than a few days. But inevitably

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variable be broader questions about whether the right resources have

:03:07.:03:10.

been allocated -- there will be broader questions. I'm not sure we

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are contrary in that place yet as a country to have a very heated

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political debate about that, but maybe we are. That will shift in the

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next you days. It is a difficult balance to strike because

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campaigning has started again, but in all of our minds are the images

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after the Manchester Arena bombing and the outpouring of grief that has

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followed. In all of our minds, apart from Jeremy Corbyn, it seems, after

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the disgraceful episode we have seen and his comments about using an

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attack like this to further his election campaign. Which is clearly

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what he's doing, what ever way you slice it, and that very unhelpful.

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The other thing about this, we see this every single time we have an

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attack, the intelligence services pick up and make multiple arrests

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and that says they already know where many of these people are, and

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if they already knew where they were, and we will talk about this

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later, but if they already knew, why would those people not already in

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custody? It is the lack of any coherent common-sense approach which

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makes people are scratching their head. We have done the vigils and

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praying, but can we have some action? You have raised that issue.

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What is interesting, recently don't know the attacks that have been

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prevented. True. To suggest there is a simple template that could have

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been used but wasn't, that isn't necessarily... The security services

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say there are 3000 people they are interested in. 500 active

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investigations. You could argue the security services are using this to

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call for more support and more resources, but Salman Abedi was

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known, not one of the 500, but his case was under review and people

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will ask questions about that. Absolutely. You have this problem

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essentially, people can be suspected of involvement without having

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committed a crime, and therefore if the call is that you scoop up

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everyone who has been suspected of involvement in terrorist thinking,

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discussions, this can lead to terror plotting, then you are a criminal

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and you can be arrested, so this is not necessarily as clear as you

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might think, to find everyone who is thinking what thoughts and either

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lock them up. No one is arguing for that, but by the same token it

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appears that there is clearly a lack of something, no one can quite

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identify. Everyone says kind words and we are sorry for what has

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happened. We don't want to upset that particular community, but

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nothing is really being done. We saw the ongoing investigation and the

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fact the people are looking for what they think is the extension of a

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terror network or some sort of bomb-making materials. We can hear

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from the Home Secretary Amber Rudd. I've just shared Cobra to give an

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update on the atrocious incident on Monday night. 22 people have died

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and nearly 60 people still in hospital, and meanwhile the

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investigation continues and eight people are in custody, it is a live

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operation and that will continue. In the meantime I but like to thank the

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police for the really good work that they are doing -- I would. The level

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of threat will remain at critical while the operation continues. The

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military are continuing to support the police under the operation, and

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parents as members of the military assisting in that, and I want to

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thank them -- and a thousand members of the military are assisting in

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that. That was Theresa May. -- that was Amber Rudd.

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Now - Theresa May is in Sicily this morning at a meeting of the G7 group

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We're joined from there by BBC's Deputy political

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What are we expecting to hear from Theresa May this morning? The G7

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meetings will start very quickly, they have been gathering and

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watching a spectacular fly past from the Italian air force will stop the

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first discussion is about counterterrorism and security and

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they will be looking to reach agreement on that, and there will be

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a statement of agreement later in the day. Theresa May would like to

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contribute her thoughts on the importance of tackling online

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extremism. Getting the major economies to put pressure on

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internet companies to identify dangerous content, and block

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dangerous individuals and to report relevant material to the authorities

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and to get going on the international front to deal with

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what is an international problem. She has said the fight against Isis

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has moved from the battlefield to the internet, and clearly a relevant

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point, but it is a much broader conversation than simply online.

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What kind of support issue likely to get from other world leaders? Later

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in the day, there will be a statement ahead of the end of this

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G7 summit, by way of an interim statement which will state the

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agreement of the leaders to work more closely together. In

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confronting terrorism on various fronts. You can compile a long list

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of those areas for action. Tackling areas of funding and action in terms

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of sharing knowledge and expertise in dealing with radicalisation, all

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of these things can be helped by one partner with another as well as

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tackling a particular nation. There will be a joint front at the G7 but

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it is an enormous problem and it won't be sold here by any means. --

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solved. This is a small measure which could be perceived, compared

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to what needs to be done broadly across Britain and the rest of the

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world. Will there be any action? Indisputably this is a small thing,

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when you look at the scale of the problem, countering radicalisation,

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for example, that is a problem with very deep roots inside communities.

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You could argue if Britain's way of dealing with this, the Prevent

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strategy is effective or not, and I think there are arguing is to be

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made on both sides of the question. You can broaden this out to

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questions of conflict and boots on the ground and air planes overhead

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and how effective that is or isn't. Yesterday we saw Nato countries

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agreeing to join the coalition against Isis in Syria and Iraq, that

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means a long engagement, helping hostile flights and that kind of

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thing, and you made the point very well. This is not a problem that

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will yield to a particular individual solution. Even then, no

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matter how many solutions, it will not be dealt with any time soon. You

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are close to the Theresa May camp and following the dreadful terror

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attack in Manchester. We are now resuming campaigning in this general

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election. And Uppal has indicated -- and a poll has indicated a dramatic

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drop of support for the Conservatives, they are now ahead of

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Labour by just five points, according to one poll. What is in

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the mood of the Theresa May camp? This is just one opinion poll. If

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there are other polls which support the idea that their lead has shrunk

:10:59.:11:03.

significantly, there will be some consternation in the Tory ranks. The

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polls to move this way and that in the course of the campaign, and at

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the end you often see a result which was not dissimilar to that at the

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outset. As to Theresa May, I was up close and personal -- I have not

:11:18.:11:22.

been up close and personal with her, but she is giving a news conference

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and it will be interesting to see how the transition from the post

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Manchester outrage phase of a political truce moves very rapidly

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into one of engagement. I don't think the Prime Minister will be

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attacking Jeremy Corbyn on the question of security. She doesn't

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need to. That is front of the agenda and that will be there for some

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time. What do you make? It is one poll which has suggested a big drop

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and you could understand if there were jitters in the Theresa May

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camp. They're absolutely is. They are the architects of their own

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downfall. Theresa May still comes ahead of Jeremy Corbyn on the issue

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of security and personal ratings, which suggests it might not be

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because of Manchester, it is probably because of the disastrous

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manifesto. Someone said to me, why the Tories not costing their

:12:24.:12:28.

manifesto? They are not giving you anything, there is nothing to cost,

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frankly, there's not much in there. It is a rather bleak retail

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offering? Yes. Jeremy Corbyn's offering is a wish list, very nice

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things of things that people will get. Theresa May wanted to fight a

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presidential style campaign on the proposition that you could trust her

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strong stable, strong stable, we knew the mantra, but if that is sure

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position, you cannot let your manifesto slip through your fingers

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and do a massive U-turn -- if that is your position. I'm not sure

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Theresa May had established enough of a record of achievement to fight

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began a campaign she wanted to fight. It was very brittle and that

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is why it is changing. This is mid-campaign turbulence and we need

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to be careful about that. Why bring up things like fox hunting and the

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social care thing did not even need to be in their manifesto? Some

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people have said it was brave for them to tackle it. It has backfired

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on them. It is complacency. Maybe they can say they are justified, the

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older people who are going to turn out, who are backing Theresa May, by

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huge margin, they are in the right kind of seats and maybe they thought

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they can afford to put up the manifesto that gives them license to

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do difficult things. They might have underestimated the way that Labour

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could organise their own counter opposition.

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Monday's suicide bomb was the latest manifestation of Islamist

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Sweden, Germany, and Belgium have all suffered major attacks in recent

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years but the worst affected country has been France - often perpetrated

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As a result, the country has been grappling with difficult

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questions around integration, and national identity -

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questions that are now also being asked in this country.

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Ellie Price has taken a look at what happened in France and how

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January 2015, a gun assault on the offices of Charlie Hebdo.

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In November that year, on the streets of Paris,

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gunmen and suicide bombers hit a concert hall, major stadium,

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restaurants and bars in Paris, leaving 130 people dead.

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In July 2016, at least 84 people were killed in Nice after a lorry

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ploughed through a crowd celebrating Bastille Day.

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There were numerous other attacks, as well, on a smaller

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240 people have been killed by terrorists since 2015.

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In the immediate aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo attack

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the French government mobilised 10,000 troops on its own

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Following the Paris attacks, the state of emergency

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was introduced, meant as a temporary measure, it's been in place ever

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since, giving the authorities power to set curfews,

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And it granted greater surveillance powers to the security services.

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Most of the attacks were perpetrated by home-grown terrorists with a

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majority on the government's high secure the watch list.

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Aside from missed opportunities by security services,

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many critics say this also points to failures

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in France's attempts to

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In an attempt to address that, in 2011, France

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became the first European country to ban the full face Islamic

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But it was a controversial decision, that some

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argued created more problems than it solved.

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With one of the biggest populations in Western Europe,

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France is still coming to terms with its relationship with Islam.

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And I'm joined now by the French political scientist, Giles Kepel.

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Welcome to the daily politics, in the wake of a major attack like this

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week's in Manchester, carried out by a terrorist born and lived in this

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country, it is inevitable there will be questions about integration,

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France has been grappling with this issue and I think it is fair to say

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it has not been successful No country has been successful I have

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to say. We suffer 139 people who died between the attack on Charlie

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Hebdo and the stabbing of the Catholic priest in his church in

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Normandy in July 2016. What was very striking was that even though the

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terrorist and the Jihadist tried to take the French presidential

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election hostage of that, there were no successful attacks since then.

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From July last year, to the first round of presidential election,

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except for a man who gunned a policeman in Paris, who had a

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criminal record, the French authorities have been able to sort

:17:29.:17:35.

of get deep into the Jihadist networks and foil most of the

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planned attacks. Four Jihadists it is an important thing to enter

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institutionalised politics to torpedo them. This they could not

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do, because they hoped Marine Le Pen would win and they can say the

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French or the Brits are racist and the vote of the extreme right. So

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you have no hope in integrating into society and you have to cling to

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your ascribed identity. Look what they did in Manchester, they were

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able to torpedo momently the campaign was suspended. For them

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this is a success. What I'm interested in is the causes behind

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this Jihadist movement and why it arises from home grown terrorists in

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countries like France and Britain and there is anything that can be

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shared in terms of lessons. Fraps France has a different approach and

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therefore would you agree a different type of relationship

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between minorities and the wider population? To an extent, but when

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you deal with those things, it is also an issue of global Jihadism and

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what we are confronting and this I explain in the book is the third

:19:00.:19:08.

wave of Jihadism. That is to say in 2005, Syrian engineer who was

:19:09.:19:13.

trained in France, but lived for a long time in London, which at the

:19:14.:19:23.

time had auld the chief Islamist. It was decided Osama Bin Laden had

:19:24.:19:28.

failed and Europe was to be the locus of Jihad and it was the soft

:19:29.:19:34.

underbelly of the west and a bottom up Jihadism that would see, would be

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soldiers, the disenfranchised Muslims in the west and this creates

:19:44.:19:48.

a new understanding of Jihadism. France was hardly hit. It is now

:19:49.:19:52.

less hit. And the focus has shifted on to Germany and to Britain. But

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France has been hit in a very major way and some of the accusations have

:19:58.:20:04.

been France's failure to integrate parts of its Muslim community and

:20:05.:20:08.

Britain would probably say that they have done a better job of that in

:20:09.:20:14.

broad terms. So what I want to get to the bottom of is do you think in

:20:15.:20:18.

the end France's policies to things like banning the burka, have they

:20:19.:20:23.

further alienated the Muslim community or have they been the

:20:24.:20:29.

right thing to do. I don't think they have alienated the us mum

:20:30.:20:33.

community more. We heard people bragging here that you know the

:20:34.:20:38.

reason why France was attacked, because it was too secularist. So

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you had this great thing with sharia council reigns in parts of

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Birmingham and the man who attacked Westminster was someone who came

:20:50.:20:55.

from those areas. The blame game between France and Britain is

:20:56.:21:01.

irrelevant. The issue is to understand why this Jihadist

:21:02.:21:07.

ideology has been able to capitalise on disenfranchisement, whether

:21:08.:21:12.

because people think they're too secular or too communalist, but we

:21:13.:21:16.

are facing a shared threat and I think lessons from what happened in

:21:17.:21:20.

France and from the fact that the French authorities were able to foil

:21:21.:21:24.

those attacks and that the presidential election was not

:21:25.:21:28.

hostage is important. Let me bring in my other guests. Do you think the

:21:29.:21:35.

key question is here is why do people become Jihadists, the

:21:36.:21:38.

suggestion is some are just criminals, some are very vulnerable

:21:39.:21:47.

and vulnerable to be brainwashed by more sophisticated people. And does

:21:48.:21:53.

our domestic policy play a part? This is a massive question. What is

:21:54.:21:58.

interesting is you have to disentangle what are causes of

:21:59.:22:03.

terrorism, the causes that lead people to go down the path of

:22:04.:22:14.

radicalisation and what is moral culpability. Jeremy Corbyn said

:22:15.:22:20.

there is an element of western policy used by Jihadist in their

:22:21.:22:24.

recruitment and can be seen as a provocation. That is different from

:22:25.:22:29.

saying the west has morally brought this on itself. You have to

:22:30.:22:34.

understand that ultimately there, people have agency and somebody

:22:35.:22:39.

chooses to kill innocent people, that is an absolute moral thing you

:22:40.:22:44.

have to condemn and then separately bring your analysis on to how did

:22:45.:22:52.

that person get into a situation where they adopted a view of the

:22:53.:22:57.

world that made them think they had a moral imperative to attack. I

:22:58.:23:02.

think it is about more, the idea it is about foreign policy and stuff we

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have done is a bit of a red herring, if you look at countries, we have

:23:07.:23:11.

mentioned Belgium and Sweden. And France. Madrid of course. I Jakarta

:23:12.:23:21.

there was an attack. What about integration policies at home have

:23:22.:23:25.

they worked or fail? I think they have failed. We have almost been a

:23:26.:23:32.

victim of our tolerance. But has it worked? Clearly not? Do you agree,

:23:33.:23:37.

you say you're a man of the left, but you are critical of the left in

:23:38.:23:42.

France, because you agree with the comment made there that actually the

:23:43.:23:48.

left has been too accommodating of Islamists in France. I would like to

:23:49.:23:51.

go back to the issue of Jeremy Corbyn. We are going to talk about

:23:52.:23:54.

that in a moment. If you could answer that question. Well, you

:23:55.:24:00.

know, Francois Hollande was the first man who was... And we were the

:24:01.:24:12.

worst targeted people. Those remarks are not interfering to British

:24:13.:24:19.

politics. S. Integration, we have all failed. It is not because we are

:24:20.:24:25.

culprits, because we are facing an economic model that has changed and

:24:26.:24:30.

we are into the digital economy and the French were among the Europeans

:24:31.:24:36.

least able to manage this change, because of the heavily unionised

:24:37.:24:41.

system and other issues. This is why Emmanuel Macron was elected, because

:24:42.:24:46.

this is a man who campaigned for Europe and no politician in is this

:24:47.:24:50.

country. That is why he won. Yes, The Thought he could address this

:24:51.:24:55.

issue of disenfranchisement and this is a major point that we have to

:24:56.:25:00.

take into consideration. But in other parts of Europe politic has

:25:01.:25:04.

been polarised, let's talk about the question you did want to answer

:25:05.:25:09.

before, which is do you think Jeremy Corbyn has a point, do you agree

:25:10.:25:14.

with the idea that foreign policy has to some extent arguably perhaps

:25:15.:25:19.

driven some of what's happened? Well the mix of foreign policy and

:25:20.:25:24.

domestic policy is important and the borders have disappeared. Where are

:25:25.:25:31.

we? Are we in Europe or not. Is North Africa part of France. The

:25:32.:25:38.

empire strikes paradigm... Your policies have contributed do you

:25:39.:25:45.

think? They're part and parcel and Isis always claim it is retaliation

:25:46.:25:50.

against a bombing or the territory. You don't murder children because of

:25:51.:25:52.

foreign policy. Absolutely. What they say and and this why I think

:25:53.:26:01.

Jeremy Corbyn buys into the Islamist narrative. I follow the chat rooms

:26:02.:26:06.

of those people and they say you kill our children, because of the

:26:07.:26:10.

bombings and so we kill your children. It is a tit for tat. This

:26:11.:26:25.

is the propaganda to galvanise. . It does not work when you kill

:26:26.:26:29.

children, there was an eight-year-old killed in Manchester,

:26:30.:26:36.

on 19th March in Toulouse a man killed three young Jewish pupils at

:26:37.:26:41.

a school. They would say because Jewish pupils would be soldiers in

:26:42.:26:45.

the Israeli army in the future. So we are killing the would be

:26:46.:26:49.

soldiers. This you know, functions only for the most hard core people.

:26:50.:26:54.

I think they do not manage to mobilise people. You have violence,

:26:55.:26:58.

violence after a while if it does not work, turn against its own

:26:59.:27:03.

perpetrators. This is what the Jihadists had to change their models

:27:04.:27:05.

chl Thank you. Now, with the general election

:27:06.:27:09.

firing on all cylinders once again, Jeremy Corbyn has given his first

:27:10.:27:12.

speech of the restarted campaign. Speaking in London today,

:27:13.:27:14.

he focused on counter-terrorism and presenting what he described

:27:15.:27:16.

as Labour's different approach "No government can prevent

:27:17.:27:19.

every terrorist attack." But he went on to say

:27:20.:27:25.

that it is the responsibility of government to minimise the risk

:27:26.:27:28.

posed by terrorists. Under a Labour government,

:27:29.:27:32.

there would be "more He also said that the security

:27:33.:27:34.

services will get more And Mr Corbyn said that,

:27:35.:27:39.

in the view of many experts, there are "connections

:27:40.:27:44.

between wars our government has supported or fought in other

:27:45.:27:46.

countries, such as Libya, But he also said that his

:27:47.:27:48.

assessment "in no way reduces He went on to say that an "informed

:27:49.:27:57.

understanding of the causes of terrorism" is an essential part

:27:58.:28:02.

of an effective security strategy. And Jeremy Corbyn said

:28:03.:28:06.

that the so-called "war on terror He said that a future Labour

:28:07.:28:08.

government would think of what he called a "smarter way"

:28:09.:28:13.

to reduce the threat of terrorism. Here's some of what the Labour

:28:14.:28:17.

leader had to say. We must be brave enough

:28:18.:28:22.

to admit that the war We need a smarter way to reduce

:28:23.:28:24.

the threat from countries that nurture terrorists

:28:25.:28:30.

and generate terrorism. That's why I set out

:28:31.:28:34.

Labour's approach to foreign It is focused on strengthening

:28:35.:28:36.

our national security We must support our Armed Forces,

:28:37.:28:42.

Foreign Office, international development professionals

:28:43.:28:49.

and diplomats, engaging with the world in a way that

:28:50.:28:53.

reduces conflict and builds Seeing the army on our own streets

:28:54.:28:55.

today is a stark reminder that the current approach isn't

:28:56.:29:03.

really working so well. So I would like to take a moment

:29:04.:29:07.

to speak to our soldiers You are doing your duty as you have

:29:08.:29:10.

done so many times before. I want to assure you that

:29:11.:29:15.

under my leadership you will only be deployed abroad when there

:29:16.:29:21.

is a clear need and only when there is a plan that

:29:22.:29:26.

you have the resources to do your job and secure an outcome

:29:27.:29:31.

that delivers lasting peace. We'll be speaking to the shadow

:29:32.:29:35.

International Trade Secretary, First let's hear from former Labour

:29:36.:29:38.

MP, Tom Harris who is in Glasgow. Is it appropriate to make a speech

:29:39.:29:49.

like the one Jeremy Corbyn has made today? It is appropriate to talk

:29:50.:29:54.

about the threat of terrorism, entirely appropriate that we have

:29:55.:29:56.

that debate because we haven't really had that debate in this

:29:57.:30:01.

country so far, and if we aren't going to do it in the aftermath of

:30:02.:30:04.

the terrible events, when else to do it? But I have grave reservations

:30:05.:30:10.

about the tone and content of what Jeremy Corbyn is saying.

:30:11.:30:16.

Essentially, and I have not read every single word of the speech, but

:30:17.:30:22.

as far as I can see from the report, he has spoken about the cob ability

:30:23.:30:27.

of the West which is a theme he has pursued for the last 30 years -- cob

:30:28.:30:33.

ability. He has not said anything about Islamism which is the root

:30:34.:30:39.

cause of the domestic and international terrorism. He says

:30:40.:30:44.

some of the foreign policy could contribute to some of the violent

:30:45.:30:46.

acts which have been perpetrated in recent years. He is buying into the

:30:47.:30:53.

Islamist agenda entirely. If you look at what Isis are saying, they

:30:54.:30:58.

are the most obvious representation of Islamism in the world. They

:30:59.:31:03.

actually have said unequivocally that even if you stop invading our

:31:04.:31:09.

lands and stop torturing us, we will hate you and we will continue to

:31:10.:31:15.

attack you. Islamism is about hating Western values and hating democracy

:31:16.:31:18.

and hating the fact that in this country and other Western

:31:19.:31:22.

democracies women, heaven forbid, are able to leave their homes

:31:23.:31:25.

without their husbands permission. That offends Islamist 's and even if

:31:26.:31:30.

there was no invasion of any other countries, they would still hate us

:31:31.:31:34.

and they would still kill us. The World Trade Centre was attacked in

:31:35.:31:43.

1993, first of all, ten years before the invasion of Iraq. Is Jeremy

:31:44.:31:48.

Corbyn like to say that the war on terror hasn't worked? -- right to

:31:49.:31:55.

say. We don't know what level of threat we would have if the military

:31:56.:32:02.

action had not been taken. If anything we have been too tolerant

:32:03.:32:08.

of militant Islamism, we have tried to kid ourselves that we could come

:32:09.:32:12.

to some kind of understanding, but Islamism is a dreadful death

:32:13.:32:16.

worshipping philosophy which needs to be defeated militarily and

:32:17.:32:20.

domestically through policy and there is no alternative to the end

:32:21.:32:25.

of this particular conflict. You voted in favour of the Iraq war. Has

:32:26.:32:31.

Jeremy Corbyn been proven right by being against it from the start? I

:32:32.:32:37.

don't think so. He has been against Iraq as he has been against every

:32:38.:32:43.

military intervention. They intervened in Kosovo to stop the

:32:44.:32:49.

murder of thousands of Muslim civilians and Jeremy Corbyn demanded

:32:50.:32:51.

that the military action should stop. Let's think, if we stop

:32:52.:32:58.

military interventions, what happens when the Islamist 's continued to

:32:59.:33:02.

kill our children when they go to pop concerts? What happens when we

:33:03.:33:10.

have done everything the Islamist people demand, what happens when we

:33:11.:33:16.

stop sending troops abroad to do good and yet we are still the

:33:17.:33:20.

victims of this evil philosophy? What do people like Jeremy Corbyn

:33:21.:33:22.

then say? Tom Harris, thanks. And I'm joined now by the Shadow

:33:23.:33:25.

International Trade Secretary, Barry Gardiner and Conservative

:33:26.:33:27.

Johnny Mercer is in What do you say in response to Tom

:33:28.:33:35.

Harris who has said Jeremy Corbyn has bought into the Islamist agenda?

:33:36.:33:42.

I say not at all, because what Jeremy is pointing out, that there

:33:43.:33:47.

is absolutely no justification for the horrific events in Manchester,

:33:48.:33:52.

absolutely none, nothing can justify that and there is no moral

:33:53.:33:58.

equivalence in any way between British action abroad anti-terrorist

:33:59.:34:03.

action that attacked that concept -- and the terrorist action. What

:34:04.:34:07.

Jeremy Corbyn has said is in tune with what the US intelligence has

:34:08.:34:13.

pointed out, and with what Stella Rimington has said, two former heads

:34:14.:34:21.

of MI5, one says, whatever the merits of putting the end to Saddam

:34:22.:34:24.

Hussein, the war was a distraction from the peashooter of Al-Qaeda and

:34:25.:34:28.

an increase to the terrorist threat -- from the pursuit of Al-Qaeda. It

:34:29.:34:37.

provided an arena for jihad for which she had called so many of his

:34:38.:34:41.

supporters included -- for which he had called and so many of his

:34:42.:34:46.

supporters including British citizens, travelled to fight. You

:34:47.:34:52.

are saying some British policy has led to the attack in Manchester? No,

:34:53.:34:57.

there is no direct causal relationship. What part of British

:34:58.:35:02.

policy would you have changed to prevent subsequent terrorist

:35:03.:35:11.

attacks? What she is saying... I want to know what you are saying. It

:35:12.:35:19.

is the same thing. You cannot ignore the recruiting Sergeant effect of

:35:20.:35:23.

those conflicts and the way they were conducted without having

:35:24.:35:28.

stabilisation in the country in the aftermath as the primary focus

:35:29.:35:32.

because we know that these terrorist groups actually thrive on

:35:33.:35:37.

instability. So would you have air strikes in Libya? Let me be clear, I

:35:38.:35:43.

was one of the people who did vote against the air strikes in Libya.

:35:44.:35:48.

And look at what is happening in Libya today, women are being sold in

:35:49.:35:53.

slave markets in Libya. Because of the complete failure to stabilise

:35:54.:35:59.

that country. Johnny Mercer, there has been a political vacuum in Libya

:36:00.:36:03.

and Britain has been criticised for not having followed up the air

:36:04.:36:07.

strikes that were conducted and Salman Abedi's family at his from

:36:08.:36:16.

Libya. -- is from Libya. I would say to anyone watching that the Libyan

:36:17.:36:20.

intervention was done on a very specific challenge of rescuing a

:36:21.:36:24.

group of people who were going to get massacred at the time. What has

:36:25.:36:29.

happened in that country is of deep regret, you can see the challenges

:36:30.:36:33.

that there, but do not accept that doing nothing is always the answer

:36:34.:36:38.

and I think Jeremy Corbyn's speech but lies a complete

:36:39.:36:42.

misunderstanding. These terrorists use this narrative after they have

:36:43.:36:45.

done something, things like the world trade centre, that happened

:36:46.:36:49.

before Iraq. It is making things up to get elected, and he could be

:36:50.:36:53.

Prime Minister, the fact that is extraordinary. It is not about doing

:36:54.:36:59.

nothing. What Jeremy has always been clear on and what many people in

:37:00.:37:01.

this country are clear about, military action where it is

:37:02.:37:06.

sanctioned by the United Nations and where it is done in concert with

:37:07.:37:10.

other countries and where it can have a clear plan to stabilise the

:37:11.:37:15.

country that is being attacked or intervened on, that is something...

:37:16.:37:22.

One of the military interventions that Jeremy supported was East Timor

:37:23.:37:30.

which have those bits in place, and that was what the big conflict that

:37:31.:37:37.

Robin Cook resigned about over, Iraq, the plan in place will stop

:37:38.:37:42.

Kosovo, what happened at the end was Russia had to be brought into play

:37:43.:37:47.

to make sure that we had the wider international community to broker

:37:48.:37:55.

peace. Tony Blair went in without the United Nations, Jeremy Corbyn

:37:56.:38:02.

would not have done that. Yes, he would have wanted wider

:38:03.:38:03.

international involvement, and if you look at the end in Kosovo, that

:38:04.:38:08.

is what has taken place. There always has to be a United Nations

:38:09.:38:13.

security resolution before Britain gets involved in any military

:38:14.:38:19.

action? Not if it is to defend an ally or to stop our country from

:38:20.:38:28.

being under direct attack. Jeremy Corbyn said the UK cannot be

:38:29.:38:31.

protected and cared for on the cheap. He's referring to the cuts

:38:32.:38:37.

that have been made by the coalition government and the Conservative

:38:38.:38:41.

government since to the police and our Armed Forces, and he is right.

:38:42.:38:46.

He's not right. Those cuts have taken place. Counterterrorism has

:38:47.:38:52.

been protected since 2010 and increased since 2015, and defence

:38:53.:38:58.

expenditure is going up, but the specific budget you are talking

:38:59.:39:01.

about, counterterrorism, going against these threats, it

:39:02.:39:07.

constitutes a lot of efforts, the Prevent programme, within the

:39:08.:39:11.

intelligence services are the police couldn't you have a certain amount

:39:12.:39:13.

of money and you try to challenge what is going on -- and the police,

:39:14.:39:20.

you have a certain amount of money. Does that mean we have less

:39:21.:39:25.

capability? No, it doesn't. If it was simply in numbers then North

:39:26.:39:27.

Korea would have a great army, but they don't. You can understand why

:39:28.:39:33.

the Labour Party is either capitalising if you want to use that

:39:34.:39:36.

word on the fact the Tories have long claimed that you are the party

:39:37.:39:40.

of law and order and the Armed Forces, but when you look at the

:39:41.:39:43.

figures the number of soldiers has gone down from 102,300, now to just

:39:44.:39:53.

70 8000. It doesn't make sense. If you are going to talk tough after a

:39:54.:39:57.

big attack like this, and it looks as if we don't have enough boots on

:39:58.:40:00.

the ground, are people going to lose faith? The issue with the candid

:40:01.:40:08.

intelligence -- counterintelligence fight, much of it is kept from the

:40:09.:40:11.

public for reasons of necessity. The idea that we have done something

:40:12.:40:18.

which is a failure is pretty offensive, and how could Barry and

:40:19.:40:22.

Jeremy and anybody else, with their magic roundabout on foreign policy,

:40:23.:40:26.

think what UK would be like without the efforts we have seen from our

:40:27.:40:30.

great security services who have been resourced. There are challenges

:40:31.:40:34.

about the economy which crashed under the Labour government in 2010,

:40:35.:40:38.

but how could anyone know what the UK would look like today? It is

:40:39.:40:43.

pretty disingenuous. Then you look at the War on terror and what people

:40:44.:40:47.

have contributed for the freedoms we enjoy, yes, one has got through in

:40:48.:40:51.

Manchester, it is terrible for the people, but let's have reality. We

:40:52.:40:56.

live in a safe country and we are very fortunate, we have great

:40:57.:40:59.

security services, yes, we must work hard. It is not wholly disingenuous

:41:00.:41:09.

to imply that... For Jeremy Corbyn to imply that there is a link

:41:10.:41:13.

between our intervening in conflicts abroad and the problems at home? How

:41:14.:41:18.

do you explain the attacks that have occurred in the Muslim world which

:41:19.:41:22.

have killed thousands of Muslims? Is that our foreign policy to blame?

:41:23.:41:28.

What about the deadly attacks in Madrid question what they were

:41:29.:41:31.

involved in the Iraq war, but that killed 192 people -- in Madrid? Was

:41:32.:41:38.

that down to foreign policy? Let me be clear about this. The Islamist

:41:39.:41:43.

worldview existed prior to all of these things and it is there, but

:41:44.:41:50.

what Jeremy is talking about and what others are talking about. Is

:41:51.:41:57.

the radicalisation of young Muslims in this country. As a result of

:41:58.:42:04.

British foreign policy? Is helped by then using it as a cause celebre,

:42:05.:42:07.

but going back to the point you were making about the policing and the

:42:08.:42:13.

front line... Which way did you vote in the Iraq war? I voted in favour.

:42:14.:42:19.

That contradicts everything you have said in his interview, you voted the

:42:20.:42:25.

something that acted as a recruiting act. I did, but maybe that was my

:42:26.:42:31.

mistake. Within four weeks of that conflict I was in the House of

:42:32.:42:36.

Commons, we had the debate, and I was arguing that we will not doing

:42:37.:42:39.

what we should have been about stabilising the country and leaving

:42:40.:42:45.

people from the Army with their weapons to go back without any

:42:46.:42:48.

income and that is exactly the chaos that we left behind. Can I just

:42:49.:42:56.

finish. It is important to get the narrative here, and the logic,

:42:57.:42:59.

because as we know, many attacks took place before the recent foreign

:43:00.:43:08.

policy intervention. In terms of, are you saying that our foreign

:43:09.:43:11.

policy should now be guided in order to avoid being a recruiting Sergeant

:43:12.:43:16.

and should be guided on not upsetting anyone? If we are going to

:43:17.:43:21.

have a foreign policy that is not going to act as a recruiting

:43:22.:43:26.

Sergeant, anyway, like Libya, because the Manchester Thunder's

:43:27.:43:29.

family were opponents of Gaddafi in Libya. -- Manchester bomber's

:43:30.:43:39.

family. The Abedi family had fled Libya and come back here, but then

:43:40.:43:44.

they went back to Libya. In a way they should have welcomed the

:43:45.:43:48.

intervention. But they didn't, and we had a chaotic state in the

:43:49.:43:51.

country which enabled the terrorist groups to set up their camps and

:43:52.:43:54.

train people and to radicalise them through that warped ideology. The

:43:55.:44:01.

point about the policing, the police are the front line intelligence

:44:02.:44:04.

service with our communities in the UK and we have seen so many young

:44:05.:44:09.

men from the UK who have become radicalised and who have become the

:44:10.:44:13.

terrorist bombers and we need the police on the front line talking

:44:14.:44:16.

with the community and gain their confidence and having that

:44:17.:44:22.

intelligence. And on this occasion we know that for- five times that

:44:23.:44:27.

was made but it didn't get through. -- 4-5 times. One of the points

:44:28.:44:33.

Barry has raised is a valid one in terms of the aftermath of these

:44:34.:44:37.

conflicts. In the case of Iraq and Libya, Britain left these countries

:44:38.:44:45.

to chaos? Yes, of course. Famously we now know to the cost of many that

:44:46.:44:50.

lady what happened afterwards, the legacy that should have taken place

:44:51.:44:54.

after Iraq and Afghanistan, it wasn't good enough. We can only

:44:55.:44:59.

learn from that going forward, but that isn't the reason why some

:45:00.:45:03.

decides to blow up small children in an Arena in Manchester. Jeremy

:45:04.:45:08.

Corbyn, and Barry, you know Jeremy is on a hiding to nothing, just look

:45:09.:45:14.

at his back story and where he comes from and what he stands for. He's a

:45:15.:45:19.

pacifist CMD member, and when he was asked if he would take out an Isis,

:45:20.:45:23.

he couldn't even sire -- CMD member. He wants to be taken seriously on

:45:24.:45:32.

these issues. And this is a weakness for Jeremy Corbyn because people

:45:33.:45:36.

have spoken at his past associations with members of the IRA or any

:45:37.:45:40.

connection he might have with groups like Hamas and in the end it is a

:45:41.:45:43.

trust issue for the British people when they come to vote.

:45:44.:45:48.

It is problematic when you look at his record calling Hamas friends and

:45:49.:45:57.

associating with Gerry Adams within weeks of Brighton bombing. This will

:45:58.:46:04.

make people see him as something who sees the British state as the bad

:46:05.:46:08.

guys. The thing I find problematic about his speech is it is

:46:09.:46:13.

retrospective and you can apply all sorts of frameworks to why we have

:46:14.:46:16.

the causes of terror, but the proposition he is putting to public

:46:17.:46:21.

is we should have a smarter policy. Of course we should. But I still

:46:22.:46:26.

haven't heard anything that articulates what that consists of.

:46:27.:46:31.

There is no diplomatic engagement with Isis and no political solution

:46:32.:46:35.

available for negotiating with these people. What he is offering is kind

:46:36.:46:42.

of an elaborate hand-wringing, I don't see what his proposal is. On

:46:43.:46:45.

that we have to ends. Thank you. Manifestos are always full of fine

:46:46.:46:50.

sounding commitments, but as John Major used to say "fine

:46:51.:46:52.

words butter no parsnips" - and voters want to know how

:46:53.:46:55.

all those extra billions for schools Which taxes are going up

:46:56.:46:58.

and which benefits are being cut? Something some politicians seem

:46:59.:47:02.

to have trouble with. # Five, four, three, # Two # One.

:47:03.:47:16.

How much will they cost? They will cost... It will cost... Where will

:47:17.:47:28.

the extra eight billion come from? What we have done if you look at our

:47:29.:47:35.

record is shown we can put records amounts into the NHS and ensure we

:47:36.:47:38.

are building the strong economy, that is what we will do. What is

:47:39.:47:43.

Britain's deficit at the moment? If I can say to you, if I can say to

:47:44.:47:48.

you, what is happening as well in terms of day-to-day expenditure. Did

:47:49.:47:53.

somebody pass you a piece of paper. How much are you going to raise from

:47:54.:47:59.

cutting winter fuel payments. It depends where we set the level. We

:48:00.:48:03.

will consult on that. It costs about two billion. Most of that? We will

:48:04.:48:09.

see, because we haven't set the... Exactly. It is uncosted black hole.

:48:10.:48:16.

How are you going to pay for something worth 40 billion. Would be

:48:17.:48:22.

patient. A couple of more days. Where will it come from. It will be

:48:23.:48:27.

a priority area. So you haven't been able to show us a revenue line where

:48:28.:48:30.

this eight billion will come from? Now, the Institute for

:48:31.:48:34.

Fiscal Studies, or IFS, has analysed Labour and Conservative

:48:35.:48:38.

manifestos and compared their plans on public spending, the public

:48:39.:48:40.

finances and reforms To discuss their findings,

:48:41.:48:42.

Carl Emmerson, their Deputy Director The parties tell us their policies

:48:43.:48:56.

are costed, respect they? No they take risks. Labour has a plan to

:48:57.:49:01.

increase public spending considerably and they would keep the

:49:02.:49:05.

deficit around its current level so, borrow more than the Conservatives

:49:06.:49:09.

and raise taxes significantly. They think that would get them about 49

:49:10.:49:14.

billion. We agree they would get a lot of money from their tax policy,

:49:15.:49:20.

but even 41 billion would be optimistic and they will get less in

:49:21.:49:24.

the longer run. If Labour there is a risk, what will you do if your

:49:25.:49:27.

raises don't get what you expect. We don't think they would bring in the

:49:28.:49:35.

money held in want. Would they spend pack or put other taxes up? You say

:49:36.:49:40.

Labour are being optimistic, but to be fair they have put some costings

:49:41.:49:44.

together, because presumably you wouldn't have been able to make your

:49:45.:49:49.

judgments? Yes we can go through the numbers and see where they have gone

:49:50.:49:54.

for an optimistic estimate and where we think they have just made a

:49:55.:49:59.

mistake. And we can see they would raise a lot of tax revenue and we

:50:00.:50:04.

can say we think 41 billion rather than 49 would still be optimistic.

:50:05.:50:10.

Open question about what they would do with that short fall. You say

:50:11.:50:16.

Labour's taxes would be the highest in peacetime? With the increase of

:50:17.:50:22.

41 billion, our numbers, not their, they think they would do more, it

:50:23.:50:29.

would put tax above the level in the 80s and the 60s, so the highest

:50:30.:50:33.

level since 49/50. That is a long while. If you compare it

:50:34.:50:38.

internationally, lots of advanced economies have higher tax burdens.

:50:39.:50:42.

It would move us up to about mid table. It would move the UK to a

:50:43.:50:47.

Canadian position rather than a Scandinavian position. You say that

:50:48.:50:53.

Labour's public sector pay plans will cost ?9 billion extra. How did

:50:54.:50:57.

you work that out? We have looked at how much we spends on public sector

:50:58.:51:04.

pay and included the pension and national insurance distributions,

:51:05.:51:07.

unther the Conservative Government they could keep the 1% pay cap that

:51:08.:51:15.

would take a big risk with recruitment and retention. If Labour

:51:16.:51:22.

puts up the pay in line with private sector workers you could mitigate a

:51:23.:51:27.

lot of risks about recruitment and retention. But there would be a 9

:51:28.:51:35.

billion rise in pay bills. But you said this is a retail offer being

:51:36.:51:40.

made by Labour, is it appealing? It is about mood music in how people

:51:41.:51:44.

look at these things. You're looking at Theresa May's manifesto which may

:51:45.:51:48.

be honest and fiscally up front about we haven't got any money and

:51:49.:51:54.

we can't spend and we have to look at social care and we will put more

:51:55.:52:00.

into it, Labour, we are not giving you anything above that, a few

:52:01.:52:05.

school meals, Labour have a few list that does not include the cost of

:52:06.:52:09.

re-nationalisation. That isn't in the spending plans. That would be a

:52:10.:52:14.

mini-Brexit. What do you think of the fact there were no costings for

:52:15.:52:18.

re-nationalisation. It is correct to say there are not. They have said

:52:19.:52:22.

they would nationalise the Royal Mail and have public sector

:52:23.:52:26.

companies operating. It would be like a mini-Brexit. It would add to

:52:27.:52:34.

public sector debt. Can you estimate the figures? No, we have no sense of

:52:35.:52:38.

the scale or timing. We know it would mean they would be on course

:52:39.:52:43.

to miss their fiscal target. They have promised to balance the books

:52:44.:52:47.

on day-to-day spending. Now the Tories, you say the Tories will cut

:52:48.:52:54.

?11 billion from benefits, reducing the incomes of the lowest paid

:52:55.:53:01.

significantly. Is that in the manifesto. It is a continuation of

:53:02.:53:13.

policy. Universal credit is much less generous. It was a glaring

:53:14.:53:18.

omission. It was not being fully honest. That is a big amount of

:53:19.:53:23.

money, which of course it is not in the manifesto, the Conservatives can

:53:24.:53:27.

argue it is continuing Government policy, but ?11 billion being cut

:53:28.:53:33.

from benefits will hit working age households. And we felt by a lot of

:53:34.:53:40.

people in seats that serve MPs wants to win and they will find themselves

:53:41.:53:44.

in a need to put pressure on a Conservative Government if they win

:53:45.:53:47.

to say, you can't do this, to my constituents. I don't think the

:53:48.:53:50.

Conservative Party has been honest with itself about that and part of

:53:51.:53:54.

that is the underlying problem is you had five years during which the

:53:55.:53:59.

Conservative Party under David Cameron and George Osborne organised

:54:00.:54:03.

the argument around the need to deal with the deficit and the debt and

:54:04.:54:09.

this was the priority and then they have gone, Brexit is the issue,

:54:10.:54:15.

Theresa May is Prime Minister and she has inherited that agenda but

:54:16.:54:19.

not the will to make it the central issue and now that case is feeling

:54:20.:54:25.

old and I don't think Theresa May has grappled with that change

:54:26.:54:31.

properly. One change that the politicians have focussed on is

:54:32.:54:36.

immigration and Theresa May has restated that pledge, you are saying

:54:37.:54:41.

that her plans to reduce immigration will hit the economy and the public

:54:42.:54:45.

finances. How you work that out? We know from the Government's own

:54:46.:54:49.

forecast that when in November it revised down what it thought net

:54:50.:54:55.

immigration would be it revised down tax receipts by about 6 billion. We

:54:56.:54:59.

have seen that already in the books that was down to 180,000 a year net

:55:00.:55:07.

immigration. If you take it down to another 80,000 that will hit about 6

:55:08.:55:12.

billion in four years and that will grow over time. The more you hit

:55:13.:55:17.

that target. Is that a price worth paying. From an electoral

:55:18.:55:24.

perspective it is. Most polls suggest people would like to get it

:55:25.:55:30.

controlled. How do you explain the low tax receipts, if they go down?

:55:31.:55:35.

You suggest jobs will go as a result of immigrants not being here. Won't

:55:36.:55:39.

they be replaced by people who are looking for a job? Are we suggesting

:55:40.:55:48.

that Cafe Nero will be empty, because no one wants to work there.

:55:49.:55:53.

Yes, there are more work age coming to Britain wanting to work and there

:55:54.:55:57.

is not a fixed number of jobs and if we have people wh want to come here

:55:58.:56:01.

and want to work and decide we don't want them here... Jobs get created

:56:02.:56:10.

because they're here or they take jobs. But employment levels are

:56:11.:56:17.

high. We have record employment. So there are not many people looking to

:56:18.:56:24.

take jobs. I can't imagine our economy would collapse and the

:56:25.:56:28.

hospitality area, which is an industry that attracts people from

:56:29.:56:31.

Europe, they're not going to close down. This is the IFS just

:56:32.:56:39.

predicting doom and gloom. Forecasts are marvellous, but people say it is

:56:40.:56:44.

not scientific enough to be true. There are huge amounts of

:56:45.:56:48.

uncertainty. We can plan on the basis of best forecasts. That

:56:49.:56:51.

doesn't mean it will turn out as we predicted. Things could be better or

:56:52.:56:56.

worse, there are a lot of risks in the proposals with the Conservative

:56:57.:57:00.

the risk is that when you look at their NHS spending plans and

:57:01.:57:04.

schools, they're not that generous and what we don't know is whether if

:57:05.:57:10.

it is the case that leads to a deterioration of public services

:57:11.:57:12.

would they ends up having to top the plans up or just live with public

:57:13.:57:16.

services that were less good. Is this based on your idea that Brexit

:57:17.:57:20.

will provide uncertainty rather than opportunity. It is based on the

:57:21.:57:26.

government's own forecasts four s for the economy. It is the

:57:27.:57:33.

Government's own estimates. It is true if we don't have a strong

:57:34.:57:38.

economy neither Government could fulfil their plans. Yes the most

:57:39.:57:43.

important line for the Conservatives manifesto is the one that says we

:57:44.:57:47.

will leave the single market and they haven't explained how they do

:57:48.:57:54.

that and sustain the economy and the rest of the forecasts go away. You

:57:55.:57:59.

can't fit that in a manifesto. That is the line that will determine what

:58:00.:58:04.

happens to this country and the rest is hypothetical on whether they can

:58:05.:58:07.

do that in a way that protects the economy. Do you think there is more

:58:08.:58:11.

of a focus on public services that played into Jeremy Corbyn. Yes it is

:58:12.:58:16.

about mood music, that poll has closed, we have said it is only one,

:58:17.:58:21.

he is giving you loads, the Tories suggesting they would be more Prue

:58:22.:58:22.

dents. Thank you. Now, as part of the BBC's general

:58:23.:58:31.

election coverage our very own Andrew is interviewing the main

:58:32.:58:34.

party leaders in-depth. Tonight it's the turn

:58:35.:58:36.

of Jeremy Corbyn. That's The Andrew Neil Interviews,

:58:37.:58:38.

with Jeremy Corbyn, The one o'clock news is starting

:58:39.:58:40.

over on BBC One now. I'll be back on Sunday on BBC One

:58:41.:58:47.

at 11 with the Sunday Politics.

:58:48.:58:55.

As election campaigning resumes after the attack in Manchester, Jo Coburn is joined by Ian Collins of LBC and The Guardian's Rafael Behr for the latest coverage including Jeremy Corbyn's speech about foreign policy.


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