31/05/2017 Daily Politics


31/05/2017

Andrew Neil is joined by Lord Hennessy to discuss the latest from the campaign trail, including NHS spending and Jeremy Corbyn's views on Trident.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:52.:00:52.

With just a week of campaigning to go, Jeremy Corbyn goes

:00:53.:00:55.

on the NHS, and Theresa May talks Brexit.

:00:56.:00:57.

Will the parties prosper from pushing what they believe

:00:58.:00:59.

Trident is described as Britain's "nuclear deterrent",

:01:00.:01:03.

but would it deter if the person charged with ordering its deployment

:01:04.:01:06.

They are supposed to be the loonies in this election -

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we'll ask the Monster Raving Loony party if they're looking

:01:11.:01:12.

And forget your education, social class or where you're from,

:01:13.:01:19.

could how muscle-bound you are affect the way you vote?

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the duration today,

:01:23.:01:25.

Britain's constitutional historian - Peter Hennessey -

:01:26.:01:27.

All that in the next hour, and with us for the duration today,

:01:28.:01:45.

Britain's constitutional historian - Peter Hennessey -

:01:46.:01:47.

First this morning, let's get the latest on the campaign

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from a couple of bleary-eyed journalists, who are

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no-doubt counting down the hours until polling day.

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Sam Coates of the Times and Kate McCann of the Telegraph.

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Kate, you ran a story about Labour's immigration policy, was just a

:01:58.:02:06.

position paper or will it in from Labour policy if they win the

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election? It is interesting this morning that Jeremy Corbyn was asked

:02:11.:02:13.

about this immigration policy paper that was penned by his home affairs

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policy adviser. He said it was a discussion paper, one of many, but

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didn't deny that it could be part of Labour's policy on immigration

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because of course in the manifesto they don't actually set out what it

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would look like. We have seen no detail. I think it will form part of

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their detail thinking, whether we will see it publicly before polling

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day is another matter. It is an analysis of polling that has been

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done. It shows that Mrs May could lose seats. Lots of others have been

:03:02.:03:12.

a bit sniffy about it. What you could have done is let magic

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together with a lot of demographic data to find out what is going on in

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each constituency and have come up with this suggestion that their

:03:27.:03:30.

central scenario, with a wide margin of error, suggests that Theresa May

:03:31.:03:34.

will fall about 16 seats short of a majority. That is massively outside

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the consensus of a study one opinion, it is not where other

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pollsters think necessarily this is. I am quite struck by the level of

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shouting on social media and elsewhere that simply don't like the

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result it implies. There are a range of forecasts from different people,

:03:55.:03:59.

we will find out next Thursday who is right. Do you believe it? Polling

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isn't really a matter of faith, think it is a very credible attempt

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to work out what is going on using different methodologies for everyone

:04:10.:04:15.

else. Do you believe it, Kate? I would not want to comment on the

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rules, I would use the traditional politician's answer. You are a

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journalist! It doesn't necessarily feel right, if you go around the

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country and talked a lot of people, as you have done online programme,

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it doesn't necessarily feel in my gut that it is where this is

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heading. We have the big debate in the image tonight. Sam, there was

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talk that Mr Corbyn could turn up, or are they just playing with us,

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just teasing us? He was definitely doing that at the press conference

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this morning, trying to get to Theresa May to come along. If you

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just watch that you would think that maybe, maybe Jeremy Corbyn might

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surprise us all and cannot after saying he wouldn't. I can see a big

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strategic downside in doing that, which is that it would elevate the

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importance of that event. It is quite helpful for the Labour Party

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that has benefited enormously from the 2-party screws, the fact that

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all of the votes from the lesser parties apart from the SNP in

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Scotland have been falling into the Labour Party on the right. So I

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don't think it would be tactically that wise but if you listen to

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Jeremy Corbyn this morning, we could be up for a surprise. Kate, it is a

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week to go, the campaigning. Next Wednesday because there was no

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campaigning on polling day itself, Thursday the 8th of June. Some up

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for us, where are we in this campaign? Well, in some centres we

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have had a renewed vigour in the campaign. Yesterday saw Theresa May

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affectively try and relaunch the Conservative campaign. It doesn't

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just said Theresa May any more, it says the rules of May and the

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Conservatives. This is very much the second part, after the terrible

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attack in Manchester, things stopped and slow down. Again we have seen

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Jeremy Corbyn come out today and focus on public services, the NHS

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and schools, and that is how the parties will spend the final week.

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Theresa May talking about Brexit, why it is important she is Prime

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Minister, Jeremy Corbyn talking about money, how he will put more

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money into public services, trying to go back to the centre to appeal

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to lots of traditional Labour voters, to shore up those votes and

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when anyone left who is floating around and not yet decided. Of

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course the Roi Du Mee will want to focus on why she should be Prime

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Minister Anwar Jeremy Corbyn should not be, and I think we will see him

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try and admit out and talk a lot more about policy in the final week.

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Who will win? The Theresa May will be Prime Minister next Thursday.

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With an increased majority? I don't know, we will have to wait and see

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but I think what is definitely true is that she called the selection

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perhaps hoping for a landslide, they once in a generation chance for a

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realignment. If that doesn't materialise and the don't get 100

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plus seats next Thursday, she will come back to Westminster quite

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potentially with an increased majority but perhaps weaker than she

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thought because she has shown not to be perfect, not to be impregnable.

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Her and her team make mistakes. That will be one big takeaway from this

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campaign that is likely to enjoy whatever the result, unless she does

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terrifically well, far outpacing some other polls we have seen this

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morning. That brings us to the end of the Sam and Kate show. I am sure

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it will run and run, if not in Westminster than at the end of the

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Blackpool pier. What do you make of this election

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campaign, Peter Hennessey? There are no iron laws in British politics but

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there is a nonferrous metal wall, that the issues flow where they

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flow, you cannot expect a general election, even if the number-1

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protagonist who has called it wants there to be a driving issue that

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they want. As Ted Heath band. -- found out. It was wrong to think, if

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people did, I certainly didn't, that it would be a single issue question,

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and also it was overshadowed by the tragedy of last week. But general

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elections by their very nature are promiscuous things, they flow where

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they flow, and the human drama, and how can one put it? The human

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geography is as much a factor in these things, or seems to be, in the

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way the campaign goes and the tone and pitch of it as the cartography

:08:31.:08:34.

of those opinion polls. I am very sceptical about the one in the

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Times, by the way. I think the poll of polls is a great guide that is a

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10% lead for the Tories. Yes. It is certainly an unusual campaign, we

:08:45.:08:45.

can agree. So Labour has returned to what it

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considers its stongest suits - Here's what Jeremy Corbyn had

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to say a little earlier. The future of our National Health

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Service and our schools The state that the Conservatives

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have left our NHS and our children's schools in is anything

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but strong and stable. Over the last seven years,

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they've starved public services who rely on those resources,

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because at every turn the Conservatives have chosen tax

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giveaways for the few over public Patients are suffering ever longer

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waits in overcrowded wards, those who need care have been

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left without it. A, maternity units,

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and whole hospital units We're joined from Newcastle now

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by the Shadow Health Welcome to the programme. Why is

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Labour promising to spend now only a little more on the NHS than the

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Tories? Well, frankly, Andrew, the choice at this election for the

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British people is stark, between further reinvestment by Labour once

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again into our public services, especially schools and hospitals, or

:10:00.:10:05.

more chaos and cuts under Calamity May. So I think there is a choice of

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the British people. If it is so stark, why are you promising to

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spend on the NHS only a little more than the Tories? We have promised

:10:17.:10:22.

investment of 37 billion over the course of the next Parliament by

:10:23.:10:28.

2022. And that would be a huge further investment in the NHS. Oh

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gosh, my earpiece is coming out. Sorry about that, you are doing well

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with it. I will hold it. It is over 2% extra investment of GDP. Compared

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with where we will be in 2022 if the Conservatives win, which as you have

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heard from Jeremy this morning, it is the waiting list would go up to

:10:52.:10:56.

5.5 million people, and there would be an extra 1.5 million pensioners

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in need of urgent social care. Except that when you look at the IFF

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study of your two spending plans, the Conservative plan and the Labour

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pan as outlined in your manifestos, by about 2021, 22, the difference in

:11:10.:11:17.

the total spend is only a couple of billion. The ISS points out that

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historically UK health spending has grown by an average of 4% per year

:11:23.:11:29.

in real terms. 4%, which is twice, I think, the rate you are promising to

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do it, as you would be the first to claim, there was a lot of ground to

:11:33.:11:35.

catch up as well but you are not catching up. Historically the NHS

:11:36.:11:41.

has always been safer in Labour hands than it ever has been in

:11:42.:11:45.

Conservative hands. After seven years stewardship of the NHS, the

:11:46.:11:49.

British people are beginning to see once again, in case they had

:11:50.:11:52.

forgotten, or for those too young to remember, that the NHS is now in

:11:53.:11:59.

calamity under May's chaotic leadership. At the risk of sounding

:12:00.:12:03.

like a broken gramophone record, if we still have those these days, I

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ask you again: if all that is true, why is your extra spending so

:12:09.:12:13.

modest? I don't think it is modest. You are always telling us that we

:12:14.:12:16.

are always trying to spend the way beyond our means. I think ?37

:12:17.:12:23.

billion extra... But you have added all that up, that is the old trick

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politicians do, you have added it up over five years. It is not 37

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billion more by 21-22, you have added up each increase each year.

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But the proof of the pudding will be what happens to the NHS. We have

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promised we will reduce waiting lists by over a by 20 22. We will

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put 8 billion into social care we will see vast improvements. Social

:12:49.:12:53.

care imagery needs ?1 billion of investment and the Tories have not

:12:54.:12:57.

promised that urgent investment straightaway. We will do that

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immediately women take office. But if, and I understand why you would

:13:02.:13:06.

want to make the NHS is such a priority, I think that is clear why

:13:07.:13:12.

you would want to do that, why then is your single biggest spending

:13:13.:13:16.

commitment the abolition of University tuition fees, which will

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cost 11 billion a year? You are not planning per year to spend anything

:13:23.:13:29.

like that on the NHS, why not? It is such a huge policy, that was such a

:13:30.:13:34.

fundamental betrayal of a whole generation of young people, two of

:13:35.:13:38.

whom are mine. I have a 21-year-old just doing her final maths exam on

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Friday, and a 23-year-old who are sitting on for the grand's worth of

:13:44.:13:47.

debt. We have got to stop that. It was a huge -- it was a huge betrayal

:13:48.:13:56.

of a whole generation. We need to scrap the tuition fees. But why make

:13:57.:14:01.

that more important, since it is essentially a subsidy to the

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middle-class, tuition fees, the abolition of them, it will

:14:07.:14:09.

overwhelmingly benefit middle-class and other middle-class families if

:14:10.:14:13.

you abolish them. And yet you found a lot more money for that than you

:14:14.:14:20.

found for schools or for the NHS, or even four in work benefits, which

:14:21.:14:22.

above all would help the working poor? But there is no guarantee that

:14:23.:14:27.

all of that money was going to get paid back. These were loans that

:14:28.:14:31.

wouldn't get written off, that were paid back when people move into work

:14:32.:14:35.

about ?21,000, but they would be only paid back if people and above

:14:36.:14:41.

that. There were huge amounts guaranteed to be written off. All we

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are saying is we will do that now, we will not pretend that this money

:14:45.:14:47.

is all going to come back into the Exchequer. We are going to remake

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the commitment to the young people of this country that they can have

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higher education and the state will pay. Well, everyone pays, they pay

:14:59.:15:02.

when they get their job and make it back to society. And we are going to

:15:03.:15:06.

do loads for schools as well, Andrew, you know we are. ?4 billion

:15:07.:15:11.

we are going to hugely invest in schools. Versus 11 billion for

:15:12.:15:16.

tuition fees, I guess that is my point, you are devoting more to

:15:17.:15:20.

that. However, I have asked you that. Let me move on. There was a

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leaked document this morning about migration made by one of Mr Corbyn's

:15:24.:15:29.

policy advisers, written by him, I should say, suggesting Labour would

:15:30.:15:33.

allow the unskilled migrants to continue to work, to come here into

:15:34.:15:39.

the UK after Brexit. Is that your understanding? No. I read about this

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morning for the first time. It is not in our manifesto. I understand

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it is some discussion paper but it hasn't been for discussion with the

:15:49.:15:51.

Labour MPs signed not quite sure who it is out for discussion with.

:15:52.:15:59.

So you would not continue to allow skilled migrants to come into the

:16:00.:16:04.

country from the rest of the EU after Brexit? No, I've done public

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consultation since the Brexit vote, as you know I am a Sunderland MP and

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62% of my constituents voted to leave and I have held public

:16:16.:16:18.

consultations and made a clear commitment to them that free

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movement will end when we leave the EU, and that will be a fair

:16:24.:16:27.

migration policy based on the needs of the economy, a points-based type

:16:28.:16:31.

system, if you like, that's my commitment I've made, that's what

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I'm aware that is in the manifesto and what I will be pushing for. That

:16:35.:16:39.

is clear and from your point of view and what you think, so I thanked you

:16:40.:16:43.

for that. I want to come onto the interview Mr Corbyn gave yesterday

:16:44.:16:51.

to Women's Hour on Radio 4. The presenter was Emma Barnett and she

:16:52.:16:55.

interviewed Mr Corbyn and she then got abused on Twitter. Partly

:16:56.:17:01.

because she is Jewish. Let me just read some of these things that were

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said. This is from somebody who calls him or herself Labour Insider.

:17:06.:17:12.

Allegations have surfaced that @emmabarnett is a zionist.

:17:13.:17:15.

And a user calling himself Steven McNamara, who later

:17:16.:17:18.

deleted his Twitter account, said:

:17:19.:17:22.

"He should have known especially when a Zionist shill

:17:23.:17:24.

like you who hates him is conducting the interview".

:17:25.:17:28.

And, "We know where Zionist Torygrapher writer Emma Barnett

:17:29.:17:36.

is coming from, and she hates Corbyn."

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I assume that's because she writes now and again for the Telegraph, we

:17:40.:17:50.

know where she is coming from and she hates Corbyn. I guess the

:17:51.:17:55.

question I would put is - in years gone by you would get this kind of

:17:56.:17:59.

anti-Semitic abuse coming from the hard right in British politics. Why

:18:00.:18:06.

do we now get it coming from the extremes of Labour? I've got

:18:07.:18:11.

absolute zero tolerance for anti-Semitism or any racism from

:18:12.:18:15.

where ever it comes in society. You will not be surprised I will say

:18:16.:18:21.

that, my maiden name was Cohen, my maiden name was Cohen, although I

:18:22.:18:26.

was not brought up Jewish I am half Jewish and I have absolutely no

:18:27.:18:30.

tolerance for anyone who would say such things. It's totally abhorrent,

:18:31.:18:35.

totally against any decent value in this country and I just haven't got

:18:36.:18:38.

the time of day for people who enter into that sort of dialogue. It was a

:18:39.:18:42.

bit embarrassing since it all came out on the day Labour launched its

:18:43.:18:48.

race and faith manifesto, wasn't it? Yes, rather unfortunate. I think

:18:49.:18:52.

those people that enter into those sort of comments are no friend of

:18:53.:18:56.

Labour, they are not any friend of any civilised society to be frank.

:18:57.:19:00.

Sharon Hodgson, thank you for joining us. The city looks beautiful

:19:01.:19:05.

behind you. I'm not sure it is a photograph or the real pain also I

:19:06.:19:09.

think it's a photograph. It is sunny today. So the picture is accurate.

:19:10.:19:18.

Thank you. This kind of anti-Semitic abuse is surprising. Historically

:19:19.:19:21.

you would think was from the far right and now seems in the far left

:19:22.:19:24.

as well. It is appalling, and I'm sure only a

:19:25.:19:27.

small number of people. It is venomous. I sometimes wonder if it

:19:28.:19:32.

wasn't looking in the past before the electronic revolution they

:19:33.:19:34.

couldn't express it and now they can in an instant. They don't resist the

:19:35.:19:40.

temptation. It is dreadful, it is poisonous. Sharon and other

:19:41.:19:46.

mainstream politicians including Mr Corbyn have disowned it.

:19:47.:19:48.

Since Jeremy Corbyn became Labour leader in 2015,

:19:49.:19:50.

the party's policy on nuclear weapons has been thrown into doubt

:19:51.:19:53.

in a way not seen since Labour abandoned unilateralism in 1989.

:19:54.:19:56.

Jeremy Corbyn's opposition to Britain's atomic arsenal

:19:57.:20:01.

He is a long-standing member of the Campaign

:20:02.:20:09.

for Nuclear Disarmament, CND, and indeed served

:20:10.:20:12.

as the organisation's Vice President until last year.

:20:13.:20:15.

But the Labour Party's policy is quite clear -

:20:16.:20:17.

the manifesto states "Labour supports the renewal

:20:18.:20:19.

However, in a BBC interview in 2015, the Labour leader himself said that

:20:20.:20:27.

"It is immoral to have or use nuclear weapons, I've made that

:20:28.:20:30.

Asked whether he would use Trident, Jeremy Corbyn said "no".

:20:31.:20:36.

And last July the Labour leader voted against his own party's policy

:20:37.:20:39.

of renewing Trident in a key Parliamentary vote.

:20:40.:20:49.

Only last month Jeremy Corbyn told The Andrew Marr Show that

:20:50.:20:51.

"there would be no first use of it."

:20:52.:20:53.

We're joined now by the Conservative,

:20:54.:20:59.

Julian Lewis, who was chairman of the Defence Select Committee,

:21:00.:21:02.

the Shadow Minister for Peace and Disarmament, Fabian Hamilton,

:21:03.:21:04.

Peter Hennessey who is an expert on Britain's Nuclear

:21:05.:21:07.

Fabian Hamilton, it would be fair to say the party's policy on renewing

:21:08.:21:18.

Trident is not the policy that Mr Corbyn would want. Is that fair?

:21:19.:21:25.

That's very fair and not the policy I would want but it is the policy

:21:26.:21:29.

parliament agreed and it is the policy of the Labour Party so we

:21:30.:21:34.

have to accept that. But given that above all it is the Prime Minister

:21:35.:21:37.

who is in charge of Britain's nuclear deterrent, and quite often

:21:38.:21:43.

it's use if it ever came to that would not be a Capanagh matter, the

:21:44.:21:47.

buck really stops with the Prime Minister -- Cabinet matter. Is it a

:21:48.:21:52.

credible deterrent if the man in charge said he would use it? I don't

:21:53.:21:57.

think it is a credible deterrent in any case whatever the circumstances

:21:58.:22:00.

but that's my personal view. The fact is we are rebuilding the

:22:01.:22:04.

dreadnought class submarines, parliament agreed that, the Labour

:22:05.:22:07.

Party policy is to support that and that is what is going ahead. I would

:22:08.:22:12.

hope no Prime Minister, Labour, conservative, or anybody else, would

:22:13.:22:15.

ever dream of using these appalling weapons because they destroy every

:22:16.:22:18.

living creature on earth. What happened to the days where political

:22:19.:22:25.

parties took such clear decisions on such matters of vital national

:22:26.:22:29.

interest and individuals didn't agree with it so they resigned? What

:22:30.:22:36.

happened to that? As you know, Andrew, this is a policy that has

:22:37.:22:40.

been with us, and it has been controversial in the Labour Party,

:22:41.:22:47.

since 1979, I would suggest. And probably before that too. We have

:22:48.:22:51.

had many debates and discussions over it. If Jeremy Corbyn wasn't

:22:52.:22:56.

willing to accept the party's policy, or if I wasn't willing to

:22:57.:23:00.

accept it we would clearly have to resign but we are willing to accept

:23:01.:23:03.

it. Even though you believe it's immoral? I believe they are

:23:04.:23:09.

appalling, immoral weapons. Why would you support something you

:23:10.:23:13.

believe to be immoral? Like Jeremy Corbyn I am a Democrat and I believe

:23:14.:23:16.

if the majority agrees something we should abide by the majority.

:23:17.:23:21.

Doesn't morality trumpet democracy? It doesn't stop us having our own

:23:22.:23:29.

particular views -- Trump democracy? If you get elected again on June the

:23:30.:23:33.

8th and it comes before Parliament under a Labour government would you

:23:34.:23:38.

vote for it? The point is it would become dumber come before Parliament

:23:39.:23:42.

again because the decision has been made. If it did would you vote for

:23:43.:23:46.

it? I can't say unless I know what the motion is and what we are being

:23:47.:23:51.

asked to vote on. This house reaffirms the intention to renew

:23:52.:23:55.

Trident. You're setting this up as a way of trying to discredit me and

:23:56.:23:59.

obviously my party. I'm just trying to find out if you were elected on a

:24:00.:24:05.

manifesto in favour of it and if it came before the House of Commons if

:24:06.:24:10.

you'd won would you vote for it? I disapprove of these weapons but the

:24:11.:24:13.

fact is we've got them, we have voted to continue to have them and

:24:14.:24:17.

that his party policy and untold party policy changes then we will

:24:18.:24:21.

continue to support this in the House. I made a conscientious

:24:22.:24:25.

objection, as I think 50 or 60 other MPs did at the time, that we

:24:26.:24:28.

shouldn't have these dreadful weapons. The crucial issue is this,

:24:29.:24:37.

that's why I'm doing the job we are doing, we should negotiate the

:24:38.:24:39.

reduction internationally in the number of warheads every nuclear

:24:40.:24:41.

mission has. That's the best way to get rid of these weapons. You are

:24:42.:24:44.

the Shadow Minister for disarmament and he wanted negotiate down the

:24:45.:24:50.

number of nuclear weapons. What other nuclear power in the world

:24:51.:24:54.

agrees with you? I don't know until we start the negotiations but the

:24:55.:24:58.

United Nations is currently discussing the ban treaty, the

:24:59.:25:03.

treaty like the Treaty on landmines, chemical and biological weapons.

:25:04.:25:05.

Let's stick to the nukes at the moment. Which other nuclear power is

:25:06.:25:09.

cutting its nuclear arsenal or actually expanding and modernising

:25:10.:25:16.

it? Who else believes in it? Who are you going to negotiate with's let me

:25:17.:25:20.

answer the question. All of the powers that have already signed the

:25:21.:25:24.

Non-Proliferation Treaty, the NPT, concluded and agreed in 1970, have

:25:25.:25:28.

agreed that the nuclear powers as part of that treaty obligation to

:25:29.:25:32.

reduce the number of warheads they have. Russia has reduced the number

:25:33.:25:36.

of warheads, the US has reduced the number of warheads and the UK has

:25:37.:25:42.

too. Both Russia and America are modernising their nuclear facilities

:25:43.:25:48.

to make them more effective, they don't need as many. India has

:25:49.:25:53.

responded as well, which is upgrading its nuclear weapons. North

:25:54.:25:57.

Korea, I don't even have to tell you about that. Who else is going to

:25:58.:26:02.

come to the table with you and get a serious reduction in nuclear weapons

:26:03.:26:06.

as part of your disarmament? Who? That remains to be seen when the

:26:07.:26:11.

treaty is concluded that 163 non-nuclear armed nations in the

:26:12.:26:15.

world are negotiating this treaty at the United Nations. Can you name one

:26:16.:26:18.

country that wants to be involved with you in nuclear disarmament that

:26:19.:26:22.

is a nuclear power? Not at the moment, of course I can't, but we

:26:23.:26:25.

changed the atmosphere and environment in the world to make

:26:26.:26:29.

these weapons unacceptable, as we did with landmines, and with

:26:30.:26:32.

chemical and biological weapons. We make them illegal and to use them is

:26:33.:26:36.

a war crime but it never was before and thanks to the UN it is now. It

:26:37.:26:43.

is a process that takes many years and we have to start that process or

:26:44.:26:46.

the world is going to destroy itself. Julian Lewis, what is wrong

:26:47.:26:48.

with a moral opposition to nuclear weapons? Welcome people take one of

:26:49.:26:53.

two views about the best way to keep peace in the nuclear age. One is

:26:54.:26:59.

that the build-up mutual trust and you get rid of mutual fear and

:27:00.:27:03.

suspicion, and you do that by disarming yourself and showing your

:27:04.:27:06.

potential enemies they have nothing to fear from you and that is the

:27:07.:27:09.

peace through disarmament approach you have just heard and Jeremy has

:27:10.:27:14.

debated this many times. The other view is diametrically opposed to

:27:15.:27:17.

that and says the best way to keep the peace is to show any potential

:27:18.:27:21.

aggressor that if they attack you with nuclear weapons there would be

:27:22.:27:26.

not only unacceptable but also unavoidable retaliation. I

:27:27.:27:31.

understand that but it wasn't what I asked you. What is wrong with a

:27:32.:27:35.

moral opposition to nuclear weapons? Nothing but what one should have is

:27:36.:27:39.

a moral opposition to nuclear war. Now, if you believe, and hence the

:27:40.:27:43.

relevance, I'm afraid, of the answer, if you believe the best way

:27:44.:27:47.

to prevent nuclear war is to disarm then it is morally right for you to

:27:48.:27:52.

press, as you have just heard Fabian do, for nuclear disarmament. If like

:27:53.:27:55.

me you believe the best way to prevent nuclear war is to show that

:27:56.:27:59.

if someone attacks you with nuclear weapons they will get an

:28:00.:28:03.

unacceptable and unavoidable nuclear response then the moral position to

:28:04.:28:06.

take is to keep the nuclear weapons, and I'm delighted to say that in

:28:07.:28:11.

poll after poll for 30 years or more two thirds of the British people

:28:12.:28:15.

agree with my point of view and only a quarter agree with Fabian's point

:28:16.:28:21.

of view. They may agree with you with that on a majority but it's not

:28:22.:28:25.

an extremist position to be against nuclear weapons. It doesn't put you

:28:26.:28:29.

beyond the pale, Michael Portillo, former Defence Secretary, said

:28:30.:28:32.

Trident was a waste of money, particularly since we have a minute

:28:33.:28:37.

army at the microscopic Navy. Crispin Blunt, the last chair of the

:28:38.:28:41.

Foreign Affairs Committee, Tori Grandy, went through the lobbies

:28:42.:28:43.

with Mr Corbyn last year against Trident. It is not just, if I can

:28:44.:28:52.

put Mr Corbyn and the CND, who have opposition to the renewal of

:28:53.:28:56.

Trident. If you had asked me to name any two conservative politicians who

:28:57.:29:00.

take this point of view I would have said Michael Portillo and Crispin

:29:01.:29:03.

Blunt. Crispin Blunt was the only person to take this point of view

:29:04.:29:06.

and his view, which I respect, he is an old friend, he is an ex-chairman

:29:07.:29:12.

and I am an ex-chairman, there is no defence committee have the movement,

:29:13.:29:21.

of a that people who take the view, there are a few generals, I can name

:29:22.:29:25.

them before you do if you like, you can come up with good quotes to say

:29:26.:29:28.

we don't need nuclear weapons. I have seen what you've done to the

:29:29.:29:33.

Army. Why do they say that? They say that because they are worried about

:29:34.:29:36.

cuts to conventional forces. But if you believe that there should be

:29:37.:29:42.

stronger conventional forces, that is no excuse for leaving your

:29:43.:29:47.

country defenceless against nuclear blackmail, which no amount of

:29:48.:29:52.

conventional weaponry can counter. You can have the strongest

:29:53.:29:58.

conventional forces in the world. We would still be part of Nato. I will

:29:59.:30:02.

come to that in a moment. You could be the strongest conventional power

:30:03.:30:05.

in the world but if your adversary has even a few mass destruction

:30:06.:30:08.

weapons there is nothing you can do to resist him. Yes, we would be part

:30:09.:30:15.

of Nato and as part of Nato are nuclear weapons, they are assigned

:30:16.:30:17.

to the general defence, but the problem about this is that by having

:30:18.:30:23.

our own nuclear weapons we are able to ensure that if any aggressor work

:30:24.:30:32.

to miscalculate and believe that perhaps, for example, because

:30:33.:30:34.

nuclear weapons hadn't been used in the event of a conventional invasion

:30:35.:30:38.

of the continent then the Americans might not use them on behalf of

:30:39.:30:42.

Britain standing alone, by Britain having her own nuclear deterrent

:30:43.:30:49.

nobody can never be any doubt that in nuclear attack in this country

:30:50.:30:54.

would lead to unacceptable and unavoidable nuclear response, unless

:30:55.:30:57.

Jeremy Corbyn is the Prime Minister, because he has announced in advance

:30:58.:31:03.

that he would not retaliate. Nuclear weapons are in use every day. There

:31:04.:31:08.

use derives from their deterrent effect in preventing nuclear war and

:31:09.:31:13.

Jeremy undermines that position. Let me bring in Peter Hennessey. What

:31:14.:31:16.

you make of the state of the debate on Trident? That could be a vote in

:31:17.:31:25.

the next Parliament on the new warheads, because we need a new one.

:31:26.:31:30.

We build the submarines, the Americans provide the missiles but

:31:31.:31:35.

we provide the warheads. Designed in Berks. The existing warheads are

:31:36.:31:43.

still viable as far as I know, one doesn't know about these things

:31:44.:31:46.

unless one is a real insider, but they are getting old. It will take

:31:47.:31:52.

17 years to produce the new warhead, according to the Cabinet Office's

:31:53.:31:57.

estimate. And also the extending of the Vanguard submarines programme,

:31:58.:32:01.

which Julian's committee has looked at. We will need to look at it

:32:02.:32:07.

again, keeping those boats going until the late 20s, early 30s, is

:32:08.:32:11.

way beyond their planned life and that will take an enormous amount of

:32:12.:32:15.

effort. The Vanguard are the existing ones, but I thought were

:32:16.:32:19.

building new ones to replace them. But you need to replace them one by

:32:20.:32:23.

one sequentially, and they have been shoved up to the late 20s, early

:32:24.:32:27.

30s, way beyond their anticipated life and keeping them going will be

:32:28.:32:31.

remarkable. It is a great feat to have kept continuous at war

:32:32.:32:41.

deterrence since 1969. I got married that day. You have managed to keep

:32:42.:32:49.

continuously married while Trident for Polaris was continuously... Do

:32:50.:33:00.

you call it operation relentless? Since the point of the deterrent is

:33:01.:33:05.

that it is a deterrent and most people, almost everybody hopes we

:33:06.:33:07.

would never be in a position where we would even have two consider it,

:33:08.:33:16.

but in terms of firing it, what is the point of a deterrent if the man

:33:17.:33:20.

who would be Prime Minister is already saying he wouldn't use it

:33:21.:33:24.

anyway? Surely it loses all deterrent power if he says I will

:33:25.:33:29.

not use it even if we have got it? Guidance on the point of the

:33:30.:33:32.

deterrent myself but let me follow Julian's logic, and I have huge

:33:33.:33:37.

respect for the work he did as chair of the select committee in the last

:33:38.:33:41.

Parliament, and he and I are good friends. But the logic of what he

:33:42.:33:44.

says is that every large nation in the world should have its own

:33:45.:33:48.

independent nuclear deterrent if what he says is true but I don't buy

:33:49.:33:51.

that argument. We have heard of the American say over and over again

:33:52.:33:55.

about their right to bear arms but it is not guns that kill people, it

:33:56.:34:00.

is people that kill people. That is the same logic, it is not about

:34:01.:34:03.

nuclear weapons, it is about nuclear war. You can't have one without the

:34:04.:34:07.

other. If you didn't have nuclear weapons you wouldn't have nuclear

:34:08.:34:14.

war. Yes, because the Americans did. Had we got to the 1945 scenario, and

:34:15.:34:22.

if the Japanese had been in a position to retaliate, would

:34:23.:34:26.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been attacked, and the answer is no. We

:34:27.:34:30.

will never know that of course, thank goodness. And we won't be able

:34:31.:34:34.

to continue this because we have run out of time but I thank you Fabian

:34:35.:34:38.

Hambuchen in Leeds and Julian Lewis here in London, thank you both.

:34:39.:34:40.

Here on the Daily Politics, we see our role as very much helping

:34:41.:34:43.

you through the scary forest that is the general

:34:44.:34:46.

But as well as listening out for political prospects

:34:47.:34:49.

going bump in the dark, and uncosted policies hiding up

:34:50.:34:51.

trees, we're keeping a look out for the smaller parties lurking

:34:52.:34:54.

Today, we're shining our torches at the Official Monster

:34:55.:34:57.

Formed in 1982 by Screaming Lord Sutch and current leader,

:34:58.:35:03.

Howling Laud Hope, they urge people to "Vote For Insanity".

:35:04.:35:08.

They want to make all MPs wear the slogans of any

:35:09.:35:11.

companies they work for, just like Formula One drivers

:35:12.:35:13.

and snooker players, and introduce a 30-day cooling off

:35:14.:35:16.

period for General Elections, so you can get your vote back

:35:17.:35:19.

They have fiscal plans too, such as introducing a 99p

:35:20.:35:23.

coin to save on change, and complicating the UK tax

:35:24.:35:26.

system, so it will be too hard for corporations

:35:27.:35:28.

They also promise musicians free transport on trams and buses,

:35:29.:35:37.

as a thank you for bringing joy into people's lives.

:35:38.:35:40.

And Loony party leader Howling Laud Hope is with us now.

:35:41.:35:47.

Welcome back on the Daily Politics. Hello. You say you're 2017 ten, is

:35:48.:36:03.

it's often the centre or not quite right? Al dente. Soft in the middle.

:36:04.:36:14.

You must be proud in any way that it is not fully costed? To be quite

:36:15.:36:18.

honest with you, the Monster Raving Loony Party has very a good idea of

:36:19.:36:21.

what should happen in Brexit. If and when we come out, we then declare

:36:22.:36:26.

ourselves the offshore tax haven, we are the biggest island Europe has

:36:27.:36:31.

got. Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man become our satellite islands.

:36:32.:36:35.

We tell the members of Europe to together and sling their hook in the

:36:36.:36:39.

nearest fish pond. We would then in Europe without Europe ruling us.

:36:40.:36:43.

Only the loony party would think about this. Does Zurich still have

:36:44.:36:51.

gnomes? I think so. It was Harold Wilson who talk about that. That may

:36:52.:36:56.

well be adopted, the Chancellor has talked about a different economic

:36:57.:36:59.

model if we would not to get a deal on Brexit. I see that Ukip has

:37:00.:37:08.

anticipated your -- adopted your immigration policy of one income of

:37:09.:37:13.

one out. You are ahead of your time. Over the years we have got many

:37:14.:37:17.

things through Parliament, as you well-known. Theresa May is talking

:37:18.:37:22.

about a coalition of chaos, but that is right up your street. Of course

:37:23.:37:28.

it is. Any of the other party sounding you out, seeing if you are

:37:29.:37:32.

up for this? Nigel Farage has said we ought to form a coalition between

:37:33.:37:38.

us, and I have always said yes, Nigel, Ukip, we sleep. Very well.

:37:39.:37:48.

Other ideas pinched by parties, 204I drinking, Petzschner passports. --

:37:49.:37:56.

24 out drinking, passports for pets. Jeremy Corbyn has been talking about

:37:57.:38:01.

a bank holiday on St George's Day, we advocated that years ago. If you

:38:02.:38:06.

want tomorrow's policies, vote for us today. So, if you want

:38:07.:38:10.

yesterday's policies, but for us today, on the eighth, I mean. You

:38:11.:38:14.

have never had a candidate retained their deposit. Never ever. But if

:38:15.:38:21.

you did, you would have to consider your position. You couldn't survive

:38:22.:38:25.

as leader. If anyone retains their deposit, they are getting too many

:38:26.:38:30.

votes and not being loony enough. And you are the UK's longest serving

:38:31.:38:37.

political leader too. 17 years, dead right, a good record. If you show

:38:38.:38:41.

some success of being the electrical or coming up with policies that

:38:42.:38:46.

other parties are pinching, I would suggest your position is in trouble.

:38:47.:38:51.

We have always said the Monster Raving Loony Party is the

:38:52.:38:55.

Parliamentary think tank. They pinch our ideas over time. Nothing we can

:38:56.:38:59.

do about it. Who is doing the thinking in our part -- in your

:39:00.:39:03.

party? Me, and all the other members. If you go to the website,

:39:04.:39:09.

you can send in your own policies, and at our party conference in

:39:10.:39:13.

Blackpool, we see which ones are good and which ones we will use.

:39:14.:39:17.

Anybody's policies we can use. Have you dropped what was your solution

:39:18.:39:22.

to global warming, the Tete the air conditioning units on the outside of

:39:23.:39:27.

buildings. Now, that is central. We haven't got that at all, glad you

:39:28.:39:33.

are numbered. What do you make of this constitutional proposal, that

:39:34.:39:36.

there will be a 30 day cooling off period after you vote, so you can

:39:37.:39:40.

decide to take your vote back? You reduce the voting age to five years

:39:41.:39:44.

old, because that is how MPs behave in PMQs, and relocate Parliament to

:39:45.:39:52.

Wormwood Scrubs to save on the commute. Quite hard to find a

:39:53.:39:57.

consensus on that. It has been a great honour meeting you. I think

:39:58.:40:00.

there should be a father of the polls, and I think it would be due,

:40:01.:40:04.

25 elections in a row. It is glorious, you are part of the

:40:05.:40:08.

continuity of the realm. You never thought you would hear that, from a

:40:09.:40:13.

constitutional expert. Thank you for being with us. Thank you very much.

:40:14.:40:17.

Now - with a round-up of the craziness elsewhere

:40:18.:40:19.

in the election campaign - here's Emma.

:40:20.:40:22.

You don't need to be the Monster Raving Loony Party to provide us

:40:23.:40:26.

with a bit of madness on the campaign trail. We regularly see the

:40:27.:40:30.

main parties are quite capable of doing that themselves too. I have a

:40:31.:40:36.

question for you. Two appearances matter? For us into the world, we

:40:37.:40:39.

just throw on any old thing in the morning but what about the

:40:40.:40:43.

politicians? We are hearing that one party leader might be smartening up

:40:44.:40:47.

his act. With that and more, here's the campaign round-up. As The one

:40:48.:40:54.

Show became the Corbyn show last night, a revelation emerged about

:40:55.:40:57.

the Labour leader's academic achievements. You went to a private

:40:58.:41:01.

prep school and a grammar school. It can't be true but it -- they tell

:41:02.:41:09.

you left with Cuiaba Es. I have the certificate at home. Matt McClure

:41:10.:41:14.

and remember the withering comments Jeremy Corbyn once received on his

:41:15.:41:19.

sense of style? Put on a proper suit, do up your tie and sing the

:41:20.:41:24.

national anthem! Rumour has it that Jeremy Corbyn's spin doctors have

:41:25.:41:27.

given him an election makeover, insisting he wears dark blue suits

:41:28.:41:32.

to make him look more prime ministerial. Meanwhile, Theresa May

:41:33.:41:36.

has said in a speech that if the user may became Prime Minister... He

:41:37.:41:41.

will find himself alone and naked in the negotiating chamber of the

:41:42.:41:45.

European Union. Leaving us with a mental image we can't raise.

:41:46.:41:51.

Jonathan Bartley received his stats results. He scored 67 out of 70, but

:41:52.:41:59.

instead of going to the top of the class, he called for the primary

:42:00.:42:03.

school tests to be abolished. As if by magic, it is going to appear,

:42:04.:42:11.

look at that. Meanwhile, breakfast means scrapping free school lunches.

:42:12.:42:14.

Nick Clegg has attacked the Theresa May's decision to do away with free

:42:15.:42:18.

school meals, unveiling a new poster for the Lib Dems in Kennington. I

:42:19.:42:27.

have looked in every single camera now. We managed to get your better

:42:28.:42:29.

side. Emma reporting. Now, in the run-up to election day,

:42:30.:42:31.

we've been talking to each of the five largest parties

:42:32.:42:34.

in Northern Ireland. Last week, we spoke to Alliance,

:42:35.:42:36.

and today we're joined by Robin Swann, newly elected leader

:42:37.:42:38.

of the Ulster Unionist Party. Mr Swann, your party campaigned for

:42:39.:42:51.

the main but you are now fully signed up to Brexit. You think

:42:52.:42:56.

either of the levers of the Remainers are impressed with your

:42:57.:42:59.

position? We have taken the same position as the Prime Minister,

:43:00.:43:03.

Theresa May at this moment in time. As a Democratic party we have

:43:04.:43:06.

accepted the rule of the United Kingdom. Our MPs when elected will

:43:07.:43:12.

be working for the best deal for the UK post Brexit and during the

:43:13.:43:14.

negotiations, because we clearly believe that the best thing for the

:43:15.:43:18.

UK will be beneficial for Northern Ireland. Is there any difference now

:43:19.:43:24.

between you and the DUP on Brexit? In regards to Brexit, yes, the

:43:25.:43:30.

difference between us, one of their elected people said at one stage

:43:31.:43:34.

Brexit was beneficial at any cost, where our differential comes is that

:43:35.:43:38.

we wanted to see a realistic agreement out of Brexit, especially

:43:39.:43:40.

for Northern Ireland, because we are the only part of the United Kingdom

:43:41.:43:45.

that has a land border with another EU member state. And we are fully

:43:46.:43:48.

aware of the challenges and opportunities that will bring. And

:43:49.:43:53.

during the referendum campaign, parties on the Remain side, like

:43:54.:43:56.

your own party, though I don't think you yourself, but your own party

:43:57.:44:03.

pointed out that if we leave the European Union it creates special

:44:04.:44:06.

problems for Northern Ireland, doesn't it? It does but it also

:44:07.:44:09.

create opportunities as well, and I think that is where we have to focus

:44:10.:44:14.

on, now that we are leading the EU and Article 50 has been triggered.

:44:15.:44:18.

The challenge specifically to Northern Ireland in regard to the

:44:19.:44:23.

land borders, as I said earlier, there is a disingenuous argument

:44:24.:44:26.

made here in Northern Ireland about a hard border between ourselves and

:44:27.:44:29.

the Republic of Ireland but it has been made clear by the UK

:44:30.:44:33.

Government, by the Irish government, by our own executive and by the

:44:34.:44:37.

European Union that neither or none of the four organisations want to

:44:38.:44:41.

see a hard border. So that is something we're working for at this

:44:42.:44:44.

minute in time. And we are reflective that when the EU needs to

:44:45.:44:48.

be creative when it comes to solutions and problems they have

:44:49.:44:50.

been in the past and that is something we think will be possible

:44:51.:44:56.

and something we work towards. It is true that nearly everybody in

:44:57.:44:59.

London, Belfast and Dublin so they don't want to see a hard border, but

:45:00.:45:05.

nobody is quite sure how to do that. Can you envisage a settlement in

:45:06.:45:09.

which nothing changes on the border? That of course is something we would

:45:10.:45:15.

like to see. We have the benefit of the border as we see it at this

:45:16.:45:18.

minute in time, and also that benefits of the Common travel area,

:45:19.:45:22.

which has been in place for a long time. As a member of the British

:45:23.:45:27.

Irish Parliamentary Association, I sat with elected representatives

:45:28.:45:30.

from across the UK and the Republic of Ireland, looking at how visas

:45:31.:45:34.

could work, how transition is good work, and to ensure that we maintain

:45:35.:45:40.

the open movement of people on this island and across the GB. One of the

:45:41.:45:44.

things we are very clear from a party point of view is that we do

:45:45.:45:47.

want to see a hard border positioned down the Irish sea with customs and

:45:48.:45:53.

checkpoints and passport controls at Stranraer or in Heathrow.

:45:54.:45:59.

There are some seats where the DUP looks favourite, or has a better

:46:00.:46:05.

chance of winning where you are not going to run. There is a seat the

:46:06.:46:11.

DUP will not run, I think to help your cause. But in those seats where

:46:12.:46:15.

there is an Ulster Unionist candidate and a DUP candidate why

:46:16.:46:22.

should they choose you over the DUP? There's fundamental differences

:46:23.:46:25.

between the two parties and we have made that clear and we do make that

:46:26.:46:31.

clear. The unionism that we demonstrate is actually a positive

:46:32.:46:34.

unionism and a confident unionism and something I brought forward

:46:35.:46:37.

within my leadership within the past six weeks. One of the newest leaders

:46:38.:46:45.

in this campaign. Ourselves and the DUP stand as two different parties

:46:46.:46:48.

on different manifestos and it is our approach to some of the

:46:49.:46:51.

fundamentals we have seen specifically around policy in

:46:52.:46:55.

regards to legacy, we are opposed to the creation of an historical

:46:56.:47:00.

investigations unit, we see that as the creation of a secondary police

:47:01.:47:04.

force in Northern Ireland. We are also supportive and try and bring

:47:05.:47:08.

forward in the assembly a number of times a manufacturing strategy

:47:09.:47:11.

specifically for Northern Ireland which the DUP stood down on. One of

:47:12.:47:15.

the main fundamental differences is how our party approaches matters of

:47:16.:47:19.

conscience issues. We need to leave it there but thank you for joining

:47:20.:47:23.

us from Belfast, from the Ulster Unionist Party.

:47:24.:47:24.

Now - Ellie's taking the Daily Politics Balls around

:47:25.:47:26.

Today she's in Cambridge - which is playing host tonight

:47:27.:47:33.

to the greatest debate the university city's ever seen.

:47:34.:47:35.

And in exam season Ellie hasn't had a moment

:47:36.:47:37.

to fritter away, right, Ellie?

:47:38.:47:39.

Sorry, Andrew! I was just doing a little bit of research. Did you know

:47:40.:47:54.

Cambridge has been sending a representative to Parliament ever

:47:55.:47:57.

since the 13th century. More recently it has become a Labour Lib

:47:58.:48:01.

Dem marginal, Labour defending a majority of just 599. But we're not

:48:02.:48:06.

here to talk about that today, over the last few weeks we've been out

:48:07.:48:09.

with the mood box, the coloured balls, tackling the big issues of

:48:10.:48:12.

the campaign and today there is a big issue facing the nation. Not

:48:13.:48:16.

just Cambridge. The question tonight is, the live debate which will

:48:17.:48:20.

include Jeremy Corbyn, which makes it all the more exciting to watch.

:48:21.:48:26.

But it's on at the same time as Britain's Got Talent. What will

:48:27.:48:30.

people watch? We asked people in Cambridge who are not necessarily

:48:31.:48:32.

representative of the whole nation. Here is what they said.

:48:33.:48:39.

So, what would you rather watch, Britain's Got Talent or a programme

:48:40.:48:45.

about the election? The election. Really? Why? It is funny to see

:48:46.:48:52.

people are how about you, Madam? There is no talent in politics in

:48:53.:48:58.

this country any more, it's gone. Britain's Got Talent or the Election

:48:59.:49:01.

Debate, which would you rather watch? Election Debate I think. Is

:49:02.:49:08.

it the final? The final is on June the 8th. Definitely Election Debate,

:49:09.:49:12.

although I'd love to see Simon Cowell moderate it. I'm not a fan of

:49:13.:49:17.

Britain's Got Talent but certainly not of politics so I'd go for

:49:18.:49:18.

Britain's Got Talent. The Election Debate has the edge

:49:19.:49:35.

over Britain's Got Talent. You do get to vote in Britain's Got Talent

:49:36.:49:40.

as well. Do you? OK. You've never watched it have you? No. What will

:49:41.:49:48.

you be watching? I will watch the Election Debate but on catch up

:49:49.:49:52.

because I will be in the office but I will watch the Election Debate

:49:53.:49:56.

afterwards. The Election Debate has God on its side? Definitely, yes.

:49:57.:50:12.

Given there is so little political talent in this country Britain's Got

:50:13.:50:17.

Talent is the better choice. Who is watching what? Election Debate for

:50:18.:50:23.

me. Britain's Got Talent. Election Debate. Britain's Got Talent. This

:50:24.:50:30.

family is split down the middle. The debate. Why? It is more exciting.

:50:31.:50:38.

Going to get some popcorn in? I've got exams, but why not? Let's take a

:50:39.:50:43.

break. Are you just saying what you think I want to hear? Probably! OK,

:50:44.:50:51.

no, Election Debate, definitely. The lines have now closed and the votes

:50:52.:50:56.

have been counted. And I can reveal that tonight's winner is...

:50:57.:51:06.

The Election Debate programme. It's on at 7:20pm. Thank you very much,

:51:07.:51:13.

Cambridge. -- 7:30pm. We look forward to seeing the

:51:14.:51:17.

viewing figures. We need to check if the people of Cambridge were lying

:51:18.:51:18.

to us, perish the thought! Joining us from the set

:51:19.:51:20.

of the BBC Election Debate tonight is Mishal Hussein,

:51:21.:51:22.

who is chairing the debate. I understand the big news is Jeremy

:51:23.:51:28.

Corbyn is now going to be part of the debate. Yes, we just heard that

:51:29.:51:31.

in the last few minutes so it means we do have another party leader

:51:32.:51:35.

joining the line-up of seven tonight. This is actually the first

:51:36.:51:39.

time we can show any wonder set here on The Daily Politics and we have

:51:40.:51:43.

the podiums set up for all of the seven politicians. There has been a

:51:44.:51:47.

lot of... Essentially most of tonight has been decided by the

:51:48.:51:51.

drawing of lots, the position each of those politicians takes on the

:51:52.:51:54.

stage also the order in which they make their opening statements and

:51:55.:51:58.

the order in which they make their closing statements. It is of course

:51:59.:52:01.

great news Jeremy Corbyn will be with us here tonight. That is

:52:02.:52:06.

alongside the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron, the deputy

:52:07.:52:10.

leader of the SNP Angus Robertson, Paul Nuttall for Ukip, Caroline

:52:11.:52:15.

Lucas for the Greens, Angus Robertson for the SNP, and Amber

:52:16.:52:17.

Rudd for the Conservatives. It should be lively. It certainly will

:52:18.:52:22.

be. What is the format? How will you proceed?

:52:23.:52:26.

The format is that the composition of the audience here in Cambridge is

:52:27.:52:30.

totally out of the BBC's Hans. They have been independently chosen by an

:52:31.:52:36.

outside company, a polling company, and have been carefully chosen as

:52:37.:52:39.

you would expect to reflect the country as a whole so they vote for

:52:40.:52:42.

different parties. Some are undecided voters, altogether they

:52:43.:52:47.

are coming in from different parts of the country, and also importantly

:52:48.:52:50.

we have made a decision that they should be split along the lines of

:52:51.:52:54.

last year's EU referendum campaign, so half of those sitting in the

:52:55.:52:57.

audience tonight voted to leave and half voted to remain. Those who were

:52:58.:53:02.

coming along were given the opportunity to submit their

:53:03.:53:05.

questions and we have chosen a selection that represent a range of

:53:06.:53:08.

issues that are being talked about in this election campaign. I'm

:53:09.:53:12.

assuming I generally need to stress that the seven politicians don't get

:53:13.:53:17.

to see them in advance but for the avoidance of doubt they do not get

:53:18.:53:21.

to see them in advance. The composition of those questions has

:53:22.:53:24.

just been in the hands of a small group of people. Mishal Hussein,

:53:25.:53:30.

good luck tonight, live, BBC One, 7:30pm from Cambridge, I'm sure it

:53:31.:53:34.

will be good fun and informative as well and Mr Corbyn will be their

:53:35.:53:38.

too. What do you make of the decision by Mr Corbyn to turn up

:53:39.:53:42.

which only leaves Theresa May of the leading parties not there. It is

:53:43.:53:49.

good politics, people have been surprised how he has conducted his

:53:50.:53:55.

campaign. This shows confidence on his part. That's the first

:53:56.:53:58.

canvassing at white fryer. That was terrific. Nicola Sturgeon will not

:53:59.:54:05.

be there, Angus Robertson will be there of the Parliamentary

:54:06.:54:07.

delegation, not Nicola Sturgeon. Now, how do you like

:54:08.:54:09.

your politicians? A new study from Brunel University

:54:10.:54:11.

has shown that the more heavily built and attractive a man,

:54:12.:54:17.

the less generous We'll be speaking to the author

:54:18.:54:19.

of the report in a moment, but first here's a quick rundown

:54:20.:54:25.

of some of today's manliest men in politics -

:54:26.:54:28.

none of whom, of course, Well, we're joined now by the lead

:54:29.:54:30.

author of the research, Welcome to the programme. Am I right

:54:31.:55:30.

in saying that the report concludes in general there is a tendency the

:55:31.:55:33.

better looking that person the less generous they will be. It is about

:55:34.:55:41.

upper body size, muscularity and the correlation is the preference for

:55:42.:55:43.

equality, bigger and more muscular men were less in favour of equality,

:55:44.:55:48.

political and economic equality. Does it work in reverse? The less

:55:49.:55:51.

muscular you are the more generous you are? More egalitarian, more in

:55:52.:55:57.

favour of economic redistribution, more in favour of social equality

:55:58.:56:00.

between groups in society. Why do you think that is? That is a good

:56:01.:56:05.

question. We think it is partly that guys who find themselves in these

:56:06.:56:09.

big muscular bodies calibrate their sociopolitical attitudes to match

:56:10.:56:14.

their formidable itty and we form these environments where the outcome

:56:15.:56:18.

of social competitions for status and resources were determined by

:56:19.:56:21.

your fighting ability, physical strength, so we think it is partly

:56:22.:56:26.

this throwback to our evolutionary heritage. But there also seems to be

:56:27.:56:30.

more competitive individuals, the guys spent more time working out in

:56:31.:56:33.

the gym and also have these anti-egalitarian political attitudes

:56:34.:56:40.

as well. Democratic politicians, I know authoritarian ones like to

:56:41.:56:45.

appear as strongmen, mainly men, is that true of Democratic leaders as

:56:46.:56:49.

well? Is it important to be seen to be strong? There is a lot of studies

:56:50.:56:53.

on preferences for leaders and when people exhibit most strongly

:56:54.:56:57.

preferences for mostly masculine, aggressive type readers who appear

:56:58.:57:00.

formidable and appear strong. It is always in the context of

:57:01.:57:07.

international conflict. Those preferences are especially strong in

:57:08.:57:11.

the context of war, for example. A point that we want to make in the

:57:12.:57:14.

study is it is not necessarily a rational basis at all on which to

:57:15.:57:19.

base your attitudes. Social inequality has really negative

:57:20.:57:23.

outcomes for society. If it gets too extreme, lots of social dysfunction

:57:24.:57:27.

is asserted with too much inequality. We are trying to

:57:28.:57:30.

eliminate the hidden sources of people's attitudes in sums of their

:57:31.:57:33.

preferences for equality and say they are not necessarily rational

:57:34.:57:36.

and people don't know where they are coming from. It's not the best basis

:57:37.:57:40.

for policy decisions to base it on your own physical form and ability.

:57:41.:57:44.

Our politics isn't particularly chock-a-block with alpha males, is

:57:45.:57:48.

it? In British politics? Not necessarily. There is more of a

:57:49.:57:53.

history, maybe because of the class structure of British society,

:57:54.:57:56.

politicians are supposed to be kind of genteel and not express a lot of

:57:57.:58:00.

aggressiveness. It is different in America, people like Arnold

:58:01.:58:03.

Schwarzenegger can be governor of California. In Britain it seems like

:58:04.:58:06.

there is a preference for very strong women leaders, it more

:58:07.:58:11.

acceptable, going back to Elizabeth I and Margaret Thatcher. Theresa May

:58:12.:58:17.

says Elizabeth I is her hero. Yes. I think there is almost more of

:58:18.:58:22.

tolerance with women leaders in society. What happened to the new

:58:23.:58:27.

man? I wondered, it is fascinating, it reminds me of the great writer

:58:28.:58:30.

and novelist Michael Defraine of the distinction between herbivores and

:58:31.:58:33.

carnivores but can be both. Jeremy Corbyn has herbivorous ways and

:58:34.:58:42.

carnivorous views. He throws your taxonomy of the Labour Party. It is

:58:43.:58:47.

an interesting thesis. And on that we have to end it. Thank you for

:58:48.:58:49.

joining us. That's all for today -

:58:50.:58:50.

thanks to our guests. The One o'Clock News is starting

:58:51.:58:52.

over on BBC One now. The BBC Election Debate tonight on

:58:53.:59:00.

BBC One at 7:30pm and Jo will be here

:59:01.:59:03.

Andrew Neil is joined by historian and crossbench peer Lord Hennessy to discuss the latest from the campaign trail, including NHS spending, Jeremy Corbyn's views on Trident, and whether a more muscular physique corresponds with more individualist beliefs.


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