01/06/2017 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


Her political rivals from the main parties lined up


to criticise her for not taking part in the seven-way debate,


with Amber Rudd speaking for the Conservative Party.


As campaigning for the election enters its final week,


Theresa May is about to give a speech setting out her vision


After last night's debate, it's also Brexit day for Jeremy Corbyn,


as he gives a speech outlining Labour's views later today.


We ask Tony Blair's former flatmate, Lord Falconer, how he feels


And the moodbox continues its travels around the country.


Today, Ellie has wheeled it to the Lincolnshire town of Skegness.


Have you decided who you're going to vote for yet?


Because they are all as bad as one another.


And they make promises and it doesn't come off.


And with us for the whole of the programme today,


is the Labour peer and former Lord Chancellor, Charlie Falconer.


First though, the BBC election debate.


Senior politicians from the seven main political parties took to


Theresa May's rivals accused her of lacking "guts" for not attending,


with Labour's Jeremy Corbyn deciding late on that he would take part.


Here's Adam with the highlights of the debate.


You could be watching Britain's Got Talent on the other side.


But on this stage, it's all about which politician has talent.


The debate's been electrified before it's even started by the last minute


decision by Jeremy Corbyn to come and stand at this podium.


The Conservatives sent the Home Secretary,


who may have felt at times it was six against one.


They are promising a dementia tax, an end to the winter fuel payment


I think those people deserve to know by how much.


Why is Britain the second biggest arms dealer in the world?


Why are we selling to 22 of the 30 countries


on the Government's own human rights watchlist?


Amber Rudd seems so confident this is a country at ease with itself,


Have you seen people sleeping around our stations?


So, Amber Rudd cast herself in the role of the grown-up on stage.


I just have to take on some of the Jeremy Corbyn's


I mean, he has a money tree wishlist in his manifesto.


It's very easy to think about how you spend money.


It is much harder to think about how you raise money.


It's as if he thinks it is some sort of game,


a game of monopoly perhaps, where you ask the banker for the red


money to buy the electrics, the green money to buy the railways


and the yellow money to buy the gasworks.


In the spin room, we watched the inevitable row about who'd


negotiate the best Brexit, which turned into an argument


A city the size of Hull came to this country never.


That will be a Birmingham over a five-year period.


We do it by having an Australian points-based system.


If you've got the skills that this country needs, yes,


Ukip just claimed people voted to leave the European Union and,


in so doing, they also voted to curb immigration.


I don't think we can read that into the result.


Although quite a lot of the time, it just sounded like this...


But, was the real star of the show the woman who wasn't there?


So you've heard the squabbling and discord


You've seen the coalition of chaos in action.


But in the quiet of the polling booth, you have a clear choice.


A vote for anyone other than Theresa May is a vote for


Leadership is about understanding the people you represent.


Is about not being so high and mighty you can't take advice.


It is also about bringing people with you.


It is also about ensuring your responsibilities to protect


the safety and security of everybody in this country and to lead


a Government that cares for everybody in the country.


The Prime Minister is not here tonight.


In fact, Bake Off is on BBC Two next.


You are not worth Theresa May's time.


Err, no time to watch Bake Off when there's post-match


Be honest, would you rather be at home watching Bake Off?


For all the people talking over themselves, and there


was a lot of that tonight, my own view is the moderator should


have had a switch that could switch their mics off.


There's David Davis with his finger in his ear.


Do you think it was all too much for him?


Well, backstage, after 90 minutes of shouting and all their spinning,


But has it changed how anyone will vote?


Joining us in the studio is the Home Office Minister Brandon Lewis.


Welcome to the programme. Why didn't Theresa May take part? I think


actually, what we saw, the clip you showed, highlighted, she made the


right decision. While everyone's shouting over each other she's


getting on with the job. Talking to people across the country. Not


running scared? No. She's been taking questions from the press far


more than Jeremy Corbyn and depates about PMQs every week. She made the


right decision as she was concerned. Not part of this seven- way


squabble? I think she made a cowardly and arrogant decision. To


make a snap election decision and not debate directly with the other


party leaders treats the people with contempt. I saw a film about her


meeting the electorate. She was outside a hang are. Tight in, people


around her. The camera pulled away. There were about 20 people. It was a


completely staged event. Her excuse for not doing the debate is she's


meeting the electorate. But it is in such controlled circumstances. All


politicians meet them in staged managed way. Jeremy Corbyn decided


he was take part and was there defending Labour's policies?


Outlining some of the fantasy stuff. Not able to... What is the fantasy


stuff? With nationalisation, they haven't outlined how much it will


cost, how they'll pay for it. When they talk about security, he has


voted against anti-terror laws for 35 years. The Shadow Home Secretary


wants to disband MI5. They cannot look after the security of our


country coming from that position. In terms of being brave standing in


a debate like this with rivals from other parties, did he at least put


his money where his mouth is? Theresa May was at the debate on


Monday night. She's... That wasn't a debate with with other politicians.


It a discussion with the public. What about discussions with other


party leaders? Why not She faced Jeremy Corbyn in PMQs week in, week


out. The country's watching the Prime Minister. She had the time to


come to the debate at Sky. Why not directly with Jeremy? The chaos we


saw last night highlights why she did the right thing. She has been


debating with Jeremy Corbyn at p. MQs week in, week out. She's


focussed talking to people about what she can do for this country.


Tony Blair never did a debate. This was very much before the pre-debate


times. It is a legitimate point to raise. We're talking about now


though. Let's talk about the magic money tree. Amber Rudd's phrase of


the evening. I heard it several times. Talking about Labour and how


they are going to fund their manifesto promises that amount to


?48 billion. She has a point? We've made a deliberate decision, partly


by borrowing and increasing taxes on the top 5%, we'll spend more money.


What Brandon describes as our fantasy politics, we've made a clear


decision to abandon austerity. The Tories have decided to keep going.


That's the choice for the country. The institute of fiscal did youedies


say they doubt very much the tax receipts will come in to fund that


?48 billion. You will tax more, the 5%. You'll spend more but you


haven't costed it in terms of guaranteeing those tax receipts.


Nobody could guarantee it. The question is what sort of return


would you get from the tax increases and our estimate is the best. But,


there are risks in relace to it. I accept that. In terms of the magic


money tree, did you get a feeling from the debate people watching and


taking part, if you look at the progressive alliance, people are fed


up with us a starity? We have to try to live within our means. We've been


up front about the fact we have to do it. You haven't paid off the


deficit. Debt is still rising. The deficit is still ?52 billion for the


year ending March this year. In a way, austerity hasn't done what it


was supposed to do. If I can finish. That highlights the key point. We


got that deficit Labour left us with. ?151 billion down to ?51


billion. That was seven years ago That's how bad it is. Labour haven't


costed this out. They've not outlined what nationalisation would


cost. How of they're going to use this Corporation Tax change they've


spent 12 times over. Corporation Tax take is going up. They have figures.


You may not like them. Where are your figures? It is easy to get them


wrong if you don't have them on social care and how many pensioners


will lose the winter fuel allowance. We've outlined our commitments. We


are delivering our priorities in the budget and manfess toe. It is using


the money the country's got rather than pretending to do things we


haven't the money for. The The figures are not there. What you are


disguising, Brandon, is what the Tories will do is cut and cut as


they said they would in the March 2017 budget. The problem you had


with the social care thing, it was very indicative of the sorts of cuts


that are coming. Take away people's... It is no different to


what it is now. It is different to what's now. Only in terms of Theresa


May saying she'll race the floor. ? Terms of people paying for social


care they do that now. They didn't have to pay for care in their homes,


now they do. We saw a lot of noisy support for Jeremy Corbyn outside


and from the audience last night. Is that enthusiasm going to transfer to


the quiet of the polling booth? I have no idea what will happen. All I


can tell you is two things. We went into this election on the basis it


was about Brexit. We're coming out of it and it's about what Britain's


going to be like. The British people or some of them, are very, very


concerned we are returning to Thatcher. The crowd which greeted


Jeremy Corbyn in Cambridge, each side of the street was lined with


people. I don't know whether they will vote. A lot are very young, if


that group of people does go the ballot box, I think we're in for


some surprises. How do you explain the change in the polls. The 24


point lead the Tories had which some polls suggest has been now slashed


to just 3 points. There are a whole range ofs poles out there. The only


pole that matters is June 8th. What people will be doing on June 8th. I


hope, what I'm getting when I talk to people on the doorstep, is make a


decision about who they want as Prime Minister. Someone who can


stand up for difficult things, say this is an issue which needs to be


dealt with. We have a plan which lab can't. Someone to get the right deal


for this country as we leave the EU. Something Jeremy didn't want to


touch on. We talked briefly about some of the noisy support for Jeremy


Corbyn outside. This Well, this morning,


the Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said he thought there


was a left-wing bias. It was a yammering


cacophony of views. Even by the BBC's own standards,


I think you would agree, that audience was notably


to the left of many And, you had Plaid Cymru and


the SNP and Liberal Democrats Of course, there was a certain sort


of echo chamber for left-wing views. Joining us from our Exeter


studio is Andrew Hawkins from the polling company ComRes,


who selected the audience. Andrew, what do you say to Boris


Johnson's complaints that was a notably left-wing audience? Well, I


mean, if you have seven party representatives and five of those


represent parties to the left and only two to the right, then the


phrase he used, yammering cock off if I, the reality was the audience


was scrupulously put together and selected and verified. I think a


politician's clapometer is probably not the best way to judge how


representative it is of the voting public. It's actually to open the


bonnet, as it were. To understand how that audience was put together.


It's like constructing a giant 3D jigsaw. You have to look at how


representative, making sure it is of the 2015 result. Making sure it is


representative of the current voting intention. Make sure it is


representative of people who voted remain and leave and make sure it is


demographically representative as well. It was. What did you think


when you watched the debate? Did you get any sense despite having gone


through those hoops and hurdles, it felt somehow one-sided or more


towards one side than the other? Yeah. Certainly, there's no question


in my mind that Amber Rudd and, to an extent, Paul Nuttall were up


against a mock vocal crowd. That's for sure. But, actually, when you


watch what the audience were doing, half the audience were clapping at


those moments and half weren't. You don't hear the ones who are not


clapping. Only the ones who do. So, actually, yeah, it's true, it was


noisy. I can understand why it came across like that. But, when you look


at what people or how people are behaving, it wasn't the case. In the


end, I presume whatever looks good on paper, the reality can somehow


appear quite different? You can, of course, get a dynamic where people


on one end of the spectrum are a reluctant to make as much noise as


people on the other end of the spectrum. There may have been a bit


of that last night as well. Thank you.


Polly Toynbee from The Guardian and Seb Payne from the Financial Times.


They're outside enjoying the sunshine.


Seb Payne, the Financial Times has come out in support of Theresa May


in this election albeit rather grudgingly. Why? We looked at the


options on offer and we did not really like any of them. Our view is


pro-market and free trade and capitalism. It really was almost an


ugly baby contest for us to see which one we felt would be the best


thing. We live in a democracy and this election is about choosing who


we want to be the next Prime Minister and we consider Jeremy


Corbyn's programme would be quite dangerous for the country


economically, it would not see growth and prosperity particularly


for our readers in the City of London and therefore, Theresa May is


probably the best person to get us through the Brexit deal. We said she


is the safer bet, not option, it is a bet because we think Brexit is a


bet and we will see how it turns out. Was the Prime Minister wrong to


skip the debate last night Polly Toynbee? Will it have major


consequences or does it not really matter? I'm not sure about major


consequences but the one thing people will take from it is that she


was there and ran away but Jeremy Corbyn was there and that was quite


important, I think. They may take away from it that Amber Rudd did


rather better than she would have done and she came out of it


reasonably well. The shy Tories in the audience did not back her up


very much. They were there but they were awfully shy. She was run out on


her own. But she made a reasonable fist of it. But as ever, what


surprises people when they see Jeremy Corbyn is that he is so much


better than they thought he would be. He has the great advantage of


having started the campaign with very low expectations and he has


well exceeded them. Going back to the issue of Brexit because


certainly both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have got speeches on


that today. Seb Payne, do you think it has come a little -- too little


and a little too late? This is part of the reset that the Conservatives


are trying to do now, focusing on Brexit because on any other topics,


they are an slightly shaky ground, like the manifesto, spending more


social care. Labour has been able to score some points there whereas an


Brexit, which is what the election was supposed to be about four


Theresa May, she's focusing on being the best person to get the Brexit


deal and having been around the country, I think voters get the


sense. When you ask do you want sitting opposite Michel Barnier,


Jean-Claude Juncker, Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron, people feel


Theresa May is probably the best person so if they focused on that


message and hammer it again and again, that is the place can


probably the get the best hay from but at this stage, it might be a bit


too late. Will it change any votes now, Polly, on the issue of Brexit?


If you drill down on what both parties are saying in the manifesto


is an Brexit, there is not much to choose between them. It is a rising


Brexit has not played bigger and it has certainly surprise the Lib Dems


who thought they were going to get a big surge on the back of this and I


was surprised and in some ways have been disappointed as well. When


people look at what Theresa May has done so far in her approach is to


Europe, it has been horrendous and aggressive. She has behaved as if


they were the enemy. She talks in kind of military terms. There's no


doubt that all that Labour's team would be infinitely better, more


emollient, treat them as friends and partners and how are we going to get


through this as best we can, both sides together? Whereas Theresa May


and her team, as written on her bus, are going at it like a bull in a


china shop. I think Labour has, Europe has not been particularly


Brett Lee towards us, Angela Merkel said this week we can't rely


Britain's only does not matter how friendly you are towards Europe,


they will be tough with us so they will be tough on both sides. It


depends what you mean by top. What you what is a deal that works well


for Europe, we don't want as Europe fall apart, even Theresa May says


she is very much does not want to do damage to Europe and I don't think


they want to do damage to us. If we get ourselves into a stupid


confrontation with people like Boris and David Davis and Liam Fox, and


now Theresa May herself as well, saying extraordinarily aggressive


things, particularly during the election, which they will regret


what they have to sit around a table with 27 other countries, a lot of


who will be fuming at the muddy being said in the election campaign.


But will they just think it is an election campaign, Seb Payne, that


it's Theresa May facing the electorate even if it hasn't all


been about Brexit up until now? Do you get a sense from other European


leaders about how they view things like the U-turn on social care? Will


they see that as an opportunity for them in negotiations? It will


certainly raise some eyebrows because the whole image that has


come from Theresa May, from the UK and British press, is of a strong


and stable leader and a lot of what we have seen in this campaign, as


people have said, is a bit more weak and wobbly. It will certainly raise


eyebrows about what will happen when they sit down and begin the


negotiations which, don't forget, will happen just two weeks after the


election is over. But ultimately at the end of the day, Europe is not


really bothered who it sits with, it just wants to get on with it and


start the article 15 process and so much of the actual debating will be


done behind closed doors, a lot of bargaining and horse trading, that


we won't actually see. And they do know ultimately, Theresa May needs


to act tough and she is trying to appeal to the 52% that backed Brexit


in the referendum. I don't think it matters too much for the original


outcome. I think you are completely wrong about that, I think the result


of this election is going to very much affect what Europe thinks of


the UK. If Labour won the election, then the profound sense in Europe


would be that the demotic talk of Mrs May, those mad allegations that


European officials and politicians were trying to interfere in the


election, was being repudiated by the British people. The view that


they see Britain as one amorphous mass is completely wrong. Finally


come on the magic money tree, Polly Toynbee, we would all like one of


course but if that line going to be pushed, I presume very hard by the


Conservatives, and that Labour's policies, which the IFS are not


wildly up to mystic about? They had said the same about the Tory


manifesto which has very little costings in it at all. I don't think


that we might Labour has suggested spending any more than the Tories


are going to be spending on tax cuts, corporation tax, inheritance


tax, taxes that benefit business and the better off. Enormously


extravagant tax cuts that the country certainly cannot afford at a


time when our public services are falling apart and I think that is


going to be the tension. Does she really mean austerity? No, she means


giving away money to some people while taking yet more away from


everybody's public services. Polly Toynbee and Seb Payne, thank you.


Now, the Daily Politics moodbox is on tour during the election


campaign, and today Ellie is in the Lincolnshire town of Skegness.


You have got the weather for it! On a beach, I can see.


They say it is bracing in Skegness but actually, it is just lovely and


warm and very nice. It has been well documented that Skegness and Boston


voted decidedly for Brexit in last year's EU referendum, 75% voted to


Leave which is one of the recent Ukip have got their eyes on this


seat at the coming general election. Of course, there is one week to go


before we vote, when people in this town and around the country make


that big decision but have people made the decision? There's a week to


go, is there any point in any of the politicians are still campaigning?


That is what we are asking today. Our people decided or undecided?


Have you decided who you'll vote for in the election?


What, what made you make your decision?


I just decided that it's better to keep what we have at the moment.


Because they're all as bad as one another.


They make promises and it doesn't come off.


He hasn't even decided if he's going to make a decision!


We want to do what's best for the disabled.


We're not sure which party yet is going to do that.


Because of the weak leadership of the Labour Party,


I've decided to vote for Theresa May for the first time ever


which is really a break with family tradition.


Trying to do what's best for the country


and I think Jeremy Corbyn isn't best for this country.


I think Theresa May's just wanting it for herself and what she wants


I don't think she's taken anybody else into consideration.


There's been too much on the news for me to take it in.


Otherwise I would decide, if I could understand it a bit more.


Just listening to the policies of parties.


Forget the fighting between the politicians,


it's politics which is what's important.


Doesn't affect me or my wages or my house or anything.


Do you really not think it does? No.


The good people of Skegness and those on holiday here


The trouble is, I can't decide whether it's the decideds


or undecideds who've won our moodbox today.


The one thing I have decided is I need an ice cream!


It's a tough job, but someone has got to do it, what a glorious day!


Throughout this election, we've been speaking to the smaller parties also


standing for election and today it's the turn of the SDP,


The SDP was founded in March 1981 by four


former Labour members - dubbed the Gang Of Four.


The party say they would actively


campaign for a fair, controlled and harmonious Brexit


process in the best interests of the British people and with due


consideration to our EU friends and neighbours.


They would offer free school breakfast and lunch


Remove all tax from those earning the minimum wage.


Remove all tax from those They would introduce annual


referendums to coincide with May elections to cover issues such


as the death penalty, hunting and euthanasia.


And they would ensure that all train operators provide high quality free


Wi-Fi on routes that exceed 30 minutes.


And we're joined by the SDP's


Thank you for joining us. The party survived, I thought it had gone out


of existence! It's been going for 27 years. It has not stopped. As it


almost faded into nonexistence and come back? I think there's been a


bit of a resurgence over the past few months. Few months? Absolutely,


as the previous... I mean, politics has really changed, hasn't it?


You've got all of the different parties changing their direction,


changing their position, Labour on the far left now and the Tories


going far right and the Lib Dems going far-fetched. There's a big gap


in the middle. Right, except you have also changed your mind because


last year you were the Parliamentary candidate for Ukip in the Sheffield


Brightside by-election and he finished second, so when did you


switch parties? A few months ago, there two parties that are boys


campaign for Brexit, the SDP were campaigning for Brexit... Which is a


complete change from its early days. For over 20 years, they have been


Eurosceptic, they campaign to withdraw and not join the European


single currency, they campaign... Mike Baird I would not associated


with Roy Jenkins, a bit of a shift. A total shift but does that mean you


are closer with Ukip as a result of your scepticism in the SDP? Totally


not, the SDP has always stood for direct democracy and proportional


representation, democracy meaning being ruled by the electorate, not


the EU, all the way through, since the Lisbon Treaty, the Maastricht


Treaty, the SDP has campaigned for withdrawal from the European Union.


But as recently as January, in terms of your party allegiance, you


tweeted Brexit is going to vote in the House of Commons, and if you


want Brexit, vote Ukip to make your voice heard. So why should anyone


believe you have genuinely switched allegiance? All parties have changed


their position and if you are a person of integrity, you don't just


follow the party line. The Labour Party has shifted and a lot of the


politicians have shifted with the party rather than their own beliefs.


The Conservatives, the same. My view has always been all along,


democracy, leave the European Union and now obviously as the Ukip party


line has shifted, mine has not. I'm not just going to follow that party.


What attracted you to the failure that has been the SDP? You can argue


they influenced the Labour Party. Changed their direction. Also


changed the direction the Conservative Party is going in. In


that way, how do you measure success? In power or influence


flewence. The SDP has opportunity to exert influence. If If you've moved


from Ukip to SDP? Who had confidence in Lord Owen? He blue up the SDP. Is


it filled with people like you who are constantly changing our


position. People think you're mad. Maybe this do. If you look at andy


Taylor, a member since 1982, and through to 2017 for the SDP? It has


continued, relentless, quietly in the background trying to work with


vote Leaf and others to achieve its goal. You're standing a good slate


of cand says in Sheffield and that's it? In Glasgow as Ant well. We're


starting slowly but surely. June 9th will be a very different state of


politician. Either Jeremy Corbyn's party will be victorious, unlikely.


What are the Labour moderates going to do? Form their own party? Nobody


knows what will happen next. What the last two years has taught us is


you just expect the unexpected. Can I tell you one thing for certain.


The one thing that will not happen is people will move to the SDP Will


you have Labour moderates going over to the other party? No, we are not.


You can't speak. If you ask Labour both people in the parliamentary


Labour Party and the wider activists, are they united behind a


manifesto that says an end to austerity, retains Trident... Are


they united behind Jeremy Corbyn, that's the problem? There have been


issues about Jeremy Corbyn. Ultimately what happens in the


general election and what our basic policy is will determine... No be


predict what had happen next or the attitudes of politicians. No-one


will predict what party you'll be in next. Thank you for coming in.


So what else has been going on in the campaign?


It was sunny. It might have gone behind a cloud. Tip for viewers. If


you are out on the campaign trail and you happen to spot a celebrity,


well, you need to have your selfie technique nailed. Like this. There


you go. We've got it pretty good, Jo, though you don't look too happy


to be in my selfie. Sorry!


Selfie's take practice. One candidate has been lending a hand


with that today. Another thought for you. Back when I was 16, I got up to


many things. But voting, of course, wasn't one of them. Whether to lower


the legal voting age is a subject that came up for discussion at a BBC


locality radio event. We start today's round-up with a question


from a student in Sheffield. There may have been a few blushes


on the BBC Sheffield election debate panel when the President


of the local college Student Union, So, why can't we just


get votes at 16? At 16 you're old enough


to marry your MP, have sex with your MP and go to war and fight


for your MP and die for your MP, The Labour, the Lib Dems


and the Green Party all support For today only, you can pick up


a copy of the left-wing socialist newspaper,


The Morning Star, for free. Copies of the paper's


Election Special are being given away in shops instead


of at the usual prize of ?1. And, mastering the art


of selfies with Boris Johnson. Now, where's that screen


flip button thing? It's out of focus and you're


barely in frame but post The ghost train at Thorpe Park just


got even more terrifying. These frightening characters will


chase thrillseekers on the ride, Ukip's David Kurten's been outlining


plans for education this morning. We need to challenge the viewpoint


that says academic schools are up here and everything else is down


there and selection is bad. Saying some children should be


released from school age 14 And Jeremy Corbyn's following in


the footsteps of Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber and Rihanna by gracing


the cover the NME. Now, as we've been speaking,


Theresa May has been setting out her vision of Brexit as a "great


national mission" that offers the promise of


transforming this country. Later today, Jeremy Corbyn will also


deliver a speech on Brexit, giving Labour's view


of the opportunities Negotiations with Brussels are set


to formally begin 11 days after the election,


so where exactly do the parties stand regarding this


country's future relationship The Conservatives intend


to leave the single market And seek a "deep and


special partnership" The free movement of people


from the EU would end. A Great Repeal Bill would


incorporate EU law into UK law. Labour says it would scrap


the current Brexit white paper. And that its negotiations


would emphasise securing a tariff-free relationship


with the single market The party says free movement


will end after Brexit and they'd And would immediately guarantee


the rights of all EU The Liberal Democrats want to stay


members of the single And they want a referendum


on the final deal. The SNP, likewise, want


to protect Scotland's place And they are demanding a place


for the Scottish Government Ukip, meanwhile, want to ensure


a clean break with the single market, the customs union


and the ECJ. And they insist there should be no


Brexit divorce bill, or future contributions


to the EU budget. Let's hear what the Prime


Minister has been saying We had hoped to hear from Theresa


May's speech but she's running a late. Brandon Lewis joins us. What


does the great national exit mean in terms of hard policies? It is


recognising there is an opportunity here. We've made a decision as a


country, which we've been clear we'll deliver on. We want to take


this opportunity to be a more global, outward looking country to


do trade deals around the world and with our European partners. To do


something people on doorsteps yesterday when I was out are clear


about. They want to see the parties very clearly dealing with


immigration. Something the Labour Party isn't doing. How does that


translate into policies. I would argue we don't know much more than


we did several months ago in terms of what the offer is from the


Conservatives or Labour in those terms. What does it mean in hard


policy terms? We do know more. I think first of all, from the Labour


point of view, I was debating with Diane Abbott earlier. ... Labour's


said in their manifesto they want an end to freedom of movement. I will


tackle Charlie Fawke on on what that means. A clear point for us is


immigration should be at sustainable levels. Tens of thousands. We need


to negotiate good trade deals with countries around the world. Attract


the by the and best to come here to continue to grow our economy. I


still don't know how you'll achieve those things through policy. Since


you brought up immigration, the Labour manifesto says it will be an


end to free movement. How many people on a net migration basis


should be coming here year-on-year? I don't think that's possible to


say. The Prime Minister would agree with that. You should stop people


being able to come unless they have a job and the job has got to be


something that somebody in the UK can't do. You'll end all unskilled


labour coming from the EU? In relation to unskilled labour, there


will be significant areas in the British economy where you will need


unskilled labour. The focus in immigration terms, has to be what


promotes the UK economy. When I say what promotes the UK economy, I moo


entwo things. You shouldn't be taking jobs away from the UK where


there are people who want those jobs. Secondly, have you to identify


where there are bits of industry, bits of economic activity, where if


you did take away the immigration, not just from the European Union but


elsewhere, that would damage the economy. What does that mean in


terms of farming and agriculture. Already they're expressing fears


they won't be able to get the seasonal workers they need. Would


you be happy to see unskilled working coming to work in that


industry? I don't know what the numbers are. If you needed unskilled


workers in agriculture and couldn't provide that from our own


population, you would need to allow that to happen. We'd still have


unskilled workers coming from the EU I believe we will in certain areas.


If terms of the numbers of tens of thousands, it hasn't been hit


before. Now you haven't put a timescale on when you will reach


that. Do you need to put a timescale on it? We are clear we want to do


something positive to the economy over the course of the next


Parliament. You have a target. Criticised Labour for not having a


target. You haven't said when you'd deliver it? . We did, over the


course of the next Parliament. By 2020? The draft figures that came


out last week for the last year show the policies taken forward by


Theresa May in part when she was Home Secretary as well as Prime


Minister are working. We've seen an 85,000 fall in the last year alone.


This is building on the work we've done, change how social housing is


allowed and upskilling people here to take on these jobs. How long will


that take. You talk about this upskilling, how long will that take?


The upskilling of the British population when you'll remove EU


immigrants? This is a holistic approach. We are not just


controlling our borders but also having that industrial strategy. We


bring in apprenticeships. How long will it take? The benefit we're


already seeing, more and more people getting into work. Two million


people into the economy... I'm talking about reduction in


immigration. We've seen 8 a,000 fall in the last year alone. The British


people want to see a Government that is clearly looking to deal with this


issue. That's... What is extraordinary is they slay they'll


bring it down to 10,000 within five years. Mrs May's been the Home


Secretary for six years and has failed repeatedly year after year.


Why not do something in relation to non-EU immigration which is well


over 100,000 net at the moment? As you know full well, Charlie, you


were overtalking me earlier on, this is a Home Secretary who's you is


down 900 bogus colleges offer the nine years. Has it brought numbers


down? Yes, it is. If you look at the figures just last week aLen, it is


down 85,000 just last year alone because of the work done over the


last few years that is now flowing through. There is always more to do.


We cant to tackle this challenge. It is not clear in the Labour


manifesto. Developing and implementing fair immigration rules.


No-one can disagree with that. Depends what you mean by clear. Has


Labour got a clear, identifiable stance on immigration? You stop


people coming from the E. Without any proper basis. You said you would


be prepared to have seasonal workers coming in. They are unskilled.


Aagree. That is a basis. What about other sectors? Equal numbers coming


in on retail. Hospitality? Our policy is you identify what the


needs of the economy are in a particular... The needs could be


300,000 and you would be happy with that? You have to try to reduce free


movement of the labour. What's coming at the moment are people


coming for work and people who have no job. I think it will be reduced.


I don't know by how much. You're saying tens of thousands in five


years' time? Over the course of the Parliament. By 2022, that's at


guarantee. EU or non-EU? Mying Gration levels coming down to


sustainable levels, tens of thousands over the next Parliament.


You will be held to account over that issue? That's in our manifesto.


Labour wants tariff-free trade but won't advocate membership of the


customs Euanen. Free movement will end. How is your position any


different to Brandon's? We want a close re-Laoisship with the EU. If


the Government stays in power, how can you expect to have a close


relationship with the EU when Mrs May's language about how she will


deal with the EU is one of hostility and confrontation? She accused... In


policy terms, that's not a difference. Having a close


relationship or less close, these are words. In terms of policies, how


is the Labour position in terms of Brexit negotiations any different to


the Conservatives? We will do everything we can can to get an


greechlt. It is very like lie will be different in result. That's the


key thing that matters. You can get completely tariff-free trade and not


have freedom of the movement? We've said specifically we're not having


freedom of movement. We'll aim for a tariff-free deal. They won't give it


to us? No, we'll have to negotiate it. You've admitted there is no


policy difference between what the Conservatives are trying to get in


these Brexit negotiations and what you're doing. It is difficult to


tell, Jo, the Tories are so vague about how they'll conduct these


negotiations I think there's a big difference.


Compared to what Corbyn and his ministers say and what is in the


shadow manifesto and he has said he does not be with everything in it so


it is whether you can deliver. Theresa May from the beginning has


been clear as Prime Minister that she wanted to do with Europe and I


think we can get a good deal, and optimistically about free trade for


this country. But he said about it is worse than no deal. Labour's plan


for the immigration go up and Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott have said


that themselves but she wants a deal which is good for us and our


partners in Europe, working together to get a good deal because these are


partners we want to trade with as was dreading globally so to suggest


otherwise is misleading. And that we have to call it a day. Thank you for


joining us, Brandon, and Theresa May has just about to begin her speech!


Timing is everything. Now, in the run-up to election day


we've been talking to each of the five largest parties


in Northern Ireland. Today we're joined by


Colum Eastwood, leader of the SDLP, the Social Democratic and Labour


Party. Thank you for joining us. Three of


the largest Northern Irish parties are opposed Brexit, which he painted


as the major issue at this election. Why should people choose your party


over the others? Of course, the SDLP is the most pro-European party in


Ireland, probably on these islands. We always pro-Europe, whereas Sinn


Fein, the other pro-European party now, were not pro-Europe until a


couple of months ago, even just a year ago, before the referendum,


they did not campaign against Brexit as part of the referendum but we are


glad now that they are on our side. We were the party coming up with the


answers around ideas or special status, using the Good Friday


agreement to protect our interests, the customs union and the single


market status for our businesses and people. So the SDLP have a very


strong and proud record on Europe. The other thing is, we will actually


turn up to Westminster and vote and speak and be counted when it comes


to the debates on Brexit as we go through these negotiations. How many


seats do you think you will get? What will be a successful result for


you? Let's see, I don't do predictions, we have three seat at


the minute and we would like to retain those three otherwise our


main opponents in most of those constituencies are either the DUP


who will be cheerleaders for Theresa May or Sinn Fein, who are abstention


is the MPs and will not turn up at all. If Sinn Fein get their way, we


will end up with a situation where there will not be an Irish


nationalist representation in Westminster at all. That would be a


very bad thing. You are calling for a referendum on Irish unity after


Brexit. You say a border poll is no longer solely the project of Irish


nationalism but a pro-European internationalism but isn't that


something you want to be true rather than something with any real


evidence behind it? Well, first what I said is that the border poll is


part of the Good Friday agreement, we wrote it into the Good Friday


agreement and we recognise it should not happen right now. We think what


we have to do right now is first of all get the Northern Ireland


institutions up and running, deal with the issues around Brexit and


then look at the border poll after that has settled. But to allow work


on the Brexit committee and our work with partners in Dublin and Europe,


we have made sure that the European Union and the British government


have now recognised that a united Ireland would automatically mean


entering the European Union, that is unique situation because of the Good


Friday agreement and the principles within. But it's not happening at


the moment, you would accept? No, we know there's an enormous amount of


work to do and we're not saying it should happen right away, we are


saying it should happen in a positive and democratic way, to


ensure that Unionism feels part of the positive, democratic


conversation but we have a significant change in Northern


Ireland which means because of the work of the SDLP, it is now about


re-entering the European Union and I think that changes the debate from


being a very narrow debate to a much broader debate that I think makes a


border poll much more winnable for a nationalist perspective. Let me ask


you about Jeremy Corbyn, your partner is a traditional sister


party to the Labour Party so would you be happy to work with him in


Parliament? Yes, we have already and with other parties. If the polls are


right, we could end up having to work with a number of parties,


including the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the green party and we would be very


open to a progressive alliance to try to make sure we don't have a


Tory government who don't seem to have any interest in protecting the


interests of people in Ireland. They don't seem to have any interest in


trying to avoid a hard Brexit which would mean a hard border for our


people and businesses of this island. Of course, we will work with


a progressive alliance to try to make sure we get a very different


type of outcome from Brexit. Thank you for joining us.


Now our guest of the day, Charlie Falconer, used to be


a member of Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet.


Many were surprised he agreed to serve as Shadow Justice Secretary,


considering he and Mr Corbyn come from very different places


Then last June, after a year in post, he resigned -


along with 18 of his cabinet colleagues, warning that Labour


would "be left for dead" if it failed to unite


So how does Tony Blair's former flatmate feel


How do you feel? Have you changed your mind, have you had to review


your thoughts and feelings about Jeremy Corbyn? He the leader of the


Labour Party. I know that. We are committed other party to doing our


best to win this election. But you have not changed your personal view


about Jeremy Corbyn? He's performed incredibly well in the course of


this general election campaign and the difference between him and


Theresa May is marked, he is calm and clear and brave and I think is


connecting particularly with young people and particularly with people


who have not voted before. I mentioned it before on the programme


and it was interesting to see the response he got as he arrived at the


Cambridge debate yesterday. There are still big policy difference


between you and him and his supporters, you supported the war in


Iraq, a war he opposed and has said was illegal. Last week in a speech


days after the Manchester attack, he suggested it contributed to the risk


of terror attacks here in the UK. Do you accept that? I don't think the


attacks in Manchester were caused by either the Iraq


war or anything the British government did. So you disagree with


Jeremy Corbyn? In relation to that, there would be a different emphasis,


yes. Because he said the foreign policy of Tony Blair and other


governments, like the one you are part of God is in some way linked to


being a recruiting Sergeant for people who go on to commit attacks?


He has said that and we would both be, Jeremy and I, completely united


in saying it is an abomination, what happened in Manchester... Everyone


agrees that. And we would also agree to other things, in so the security


services, the police, army and intelligence services, need


additional resources, they should be provided and we also agree that in


relation to anti-terrorist measures in legislation, there should be


appropriate judicial oversight. But you did not vote against the


terrorist legislation, and he did, he voted against every single one


and was the right to do that? I think he was wrong in relation to


particular issues but he has made clear subsequently he is not against


the state having those powers. But he's voted against all the


legislation in the past? He said because he thinks there was


inadequate judicial oversight. But he's voted against lots of


organisations people would generally think are pretty dreadful being


prescribed? Was he right? We disagreed at the time, but the


question now is do I agree, it is not of interest to the electorate


but what is my position in relation to the manifesto? I support it. Was


it appropriate for Jeremy Corbyn to make that political speech so soon


after the Manchester attack? It is right he should express his views in


relation to it. He has got to be straightforward with the British


public and they have to make a judgment about that. I don't think


it is wrong on an issue of such grievous significance to the nation,


namely the abominable attacks in Manchester, that the Leader of the


Opposition in the middle of a campaign, should not set out his


views. He was right to do so. Let's talk about the nuclear deterrent,


Jeremy Corbyn's position is very clear but he has said if he becomes


Prime Minister, his government will conduct a comprehensive defence


review and that would also take into account the renewal of Trident


nuclear deterrent, which of course, Mr Corbyn is very clear he does not


support and therefore, could once again be in doubt. Are you


comfortable with that? My understanding is that the review


will not consider the question of whether or not Trident... That is


not clear at all because it will include everything, that is what


Jeremy Corbyn has said and he is the leader of the party. I am relying on


what Nia Griffiths said. Using the shadow defence spokesman has a


clearer view than the leader of the party? My understanding is it is


accepted by the leader of the party that Trident is accepted by the


Labour Party and that is what the manifesto says. In a recent


interview, Michael Vick Andrew Neil asked on whether the defence review


would include Trident? Jeremy Corbyn said it would look at the role of


nuclear weapons as well as a reading which means it will be included.


Well, we can debate the small print, my position is that I am in favour


of retaining Trident. That is the position of the Labour Party in


terms of policy. I understand Jeremy Corbyn access that so I don't think


there is a difference between us, despite what you are saying. The


public record suggest that during the Troubles, Jeremy Corbyn met


members of the IRA, which I'm sure you know, on several occasions. He


says he was working for peace rather than honouring the armed struggle


but Seamus Mallon, one of the architects of the peace process,


said he never heard anyone mention Corbyn in the peace process and that


he clearly took the side of the IRA which was incompatible with working


for peace. In your mind, because you know Jeremy Corbyn and have known


him for a long time, did he play a role in the peace process? I don't


know in relation to any of that. I'm absolutely sure that Jeremy wanted


peace so I can't comment on the detail. Let's look at some of the


domestic policy commie called the idea of bringing the national grid


into public ownership going too far, saying that it would involve vast


expenditure when there are so many other things we should be spending


money on. You say you are supporting the Labour manifesto so you have


changed your mind? I support the thrust of the manifesto, the precise


detail of whether or not... This is not detail, this is a big policy,


renationalising utilities. And for example, renationalising the


railways, I would be strongly in favour of that. Are you in favour of


public ownership of the national grid? I think it is something for


much later, not necessarily straightaway. All the polling


companies have Labour on a high share of the vote than they scored


at the 2015 general election so despite the warnings from you and


others in the party, it suggests Jeremy Corbyn is more popular with


the public than Ed Miliband, does that surprise you? I think the


public have gone quite a long journey and what they are thinking


at the moment is that it is a choice between the Tories and Labour, and


what life would be like. People remember how bad things have been in


the 1980s under the Tories and this government has been in power


effectively for seven years and they are absolutely fed up with the


continuation of unnecessary austerity. Does it surprise you that


Jeremy Corbyn could poll better in terms of national vote share than Ed


Miliband? No it doesn't because the choice as it emerged in this


election was not ultimately about Brexit because I think people think


we have made our decision as a country about that, the choice is


between Theresa May leading the Tory party and Jeremy Corbyn leading the


Labour Party and I think the public are now making up their mind which


of the two they want and the other interesting thing that has happened


in the election is the smaller parties have been pushed to the


side. It is a big choice. Quickly because we're coming up, tuition


fees, the manifesto commitment, ?11 billion to abolish them and you are


part of the government that introduced it, is it the right


policy to abolish them? You need to to see the effect on the public


finances. That has been done. Looking at the effect on the public


finances, it is a possible policy. I'm not opposed to it as part of the


overall package. Now, as part of the BBC's general


election coverage, our very own Andrew is talking to the main party


leaders in in-depth interviews. Tonight, it's the turn


of the Liberal Democrat leader. with Tim Farron


tonight at 7pm on BBC One. That's all for today.


Thanks to our guests. Particularly to Charlie Falconer for


being the guest of the day. You said there had been an earthquake in the


Labour Party when Mr Corbyn was elected, do you think it marked the


end of the Blairite Iraq? It certainly did! -- Blairite era.


And Andrew will also be back again tonight with This Week on BBC One


As voters prepare to go to the polls


the Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron joins me


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