01/06/2017 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

Her political rivals from the main parties lined up

to criticise her for not taking part in the seven-way debate,

with Amber Rudd speaking for the Conservative Party.

As campaigning for the election enters its final week,

Theresa May is about to give a speech setting out her vision

After last night's debate, it's also Brexit day for Jeremy Corbyn,

as he gives a speech outlining Labour's views later today.

We ask Tony Blair's former flatmate, Lord Falconer, how he feels

And the moodbox continues its travels around the country.

Today, Ellie has wheeled it to the Lincolnshire town of Skegness.

Have you decided who you're going to vote for yet?

Because they are all as bad as one another.

And they make promises and it doesn't come off.

And with us for the whole of the programme today,

is the Labour peer and former Lord Chancellor, Charlie Falconer.

First though, the BBC election debate.

Senior politicians from the seven main political parties took to

Theresa May's rivals accused her of lacking "guts" for not attending,

with Labour's Jeremy Corbyn deciding late on that he would take part.

Here's Adam with the highlights of the debate.

You could be watching Britain's Got Talent on the other side.

But on this stage, it's all about which politician has talent.

The debate's been electrified before it's even started by the last minute

decision by Jeremy Corbyn to come and stand at this podium.

The Conservatives sent the Home Secretary,

who may have felt at times it was six against one.

They are promising a dementia tax, an end to the winter fuel payment

I think those people deserve to know by how much.

Why is Britain the second biggest arms dealer in the world?

Why are we selling to 22 of the 30 countries

on the Government's own human rights watchlist?

Amber Rudd seems so confident this is a country at ease with itself,

Have you seen people sleeping around our stations?

So, Amber Rudd cast herself in the role of the grown-up on stage.

I just have to take on some of the Jeremy Corbyn's

I mean, he has a money tree wishlist in his manifesto.

It's very easy to think about how you spend money.

It is much harder to think about how you raise money.

It's as if he thinks it is some sort of game,

a game of monopoly perhaps, where you ask the banker for the red

money to buy the electrics, the green money to buy the railways

and the yellow money to buy the gasworks.

In the spin room, we watched the inevitable row about who'd

negotiate the best Brexit, which turned into an argument

A city the size of Hull came to this country never.

That will be a Birmingham over a five-year period.

We do it by having an Australian points-based system.

If you've got the skills that this country needs, yes,

Ukip just claimed people voted to leave the European Union and,

in so doing, they also voted to curb immigration.

I don't think we can read that into the result.

Although quite a lot of the time, it just sounded like this...

But, was the real star of the show the woman who wasn't there?

So you've heard the squabbling and discord

You've seen the coalition of chaos in action.

But in the quiet of the polling booth, you have a clear choice.

A vote for anyone other than Theresa May is a vote for

Leadership is about understanding the people you represent.

Is about not being so high and mighty you can't take advice.

It is also about bringing people with you.

It is also about ensuring your responsibilities to protect

the safety and security of everybody in this country and to lead

a Government that cares for everybody in the country.

The Prime Minister is not here tonight.

In fact, Bake Off is on BBC Two next.

You are not worth Theresa May's time.

Err, no time to watch Bake Off when there's post-match

Be honest, would you rather be at home watching Bake Off?

For all the people talking over themselves, and there

was a lot of that tonight, my own view is the moderator should

have had a switch that could switch their mics off.

There's David Davis with his finger in his ear.

Do you think it was all too much for him?

Well, backstage, after 90 minutes of shouting and all their spinning,

But has it changed how anyone will vote?

Joining us in the studio is the Home Office Minister Brandon Lewis.

Welcome to the programme. Why didn't Theresa May take part? I think

actually, what we saw, the clip you showed, highlighted, she made the

right decision. While everyone's shouting over each other she's

getting on with the job. Talking to people across the country. Not

running scared? No. She's been taking questions from the press far

more than Jeremy Corbyn and depates about PMQs every week. She made the

right decision as she was concerned. Not part of this seven- way

squabble? I think she made a cowardly and arrogant decision. To

make a snap election decision and not debate directly with the other

party leaders treats the people with contempt. I saw a film about her

meeting the electorate. She was outside a hang are. Tight in, people

around her. The camera pulled away. There were about 20 people. It was a

completely staged event. Her excuse for not doing the debate is she's

meeting the electorate. But it is in such controlled circumstances. All

politicians meet them in staged managed way. Jeremy Corbyn decided

he was take part and was there defending Labour's policies?

Outlining some of the fantasy stuff. Not able to... What is the fantasy

stuff? With nationalisation, they haven't outlined how much it will

cost, how they'll pay for it. When they talk about security, he has

voted against anti-terror laws for 35 years. The Shadow Home Secretary

wants to disband MI5. They cannot look after the security of our

country coming from that position. In terms of being brave standing in

a debate like this with rivals from other parties, did he at least put

his money where his mouth is? Theresa May was at the debate on

Monday night. She's... That wasn't a debate with with other politicians.

It a discussion with the public. What about discussions with other

party leaders? Why not She faced Jeremy Corbyn in PMQs week in, week

out. The country's watching the Prime Minister. She had the time to

come to the debate at Sky. Why not directly with Jeremy? The chaos we

saw last night highlights why she did the right thing. She has been

debating with Jeremy Corbyn at p. MQs week in, week out. She's

focussed talking to people about what she can do for this country.

Tony Blair never did a debate. This was very much before the pre-debate

times. It is a legitimate point to raise. We're talking about now

though. Let's talk about the magic money tree. Amber Rudd's phrase of

the evening. I heard it several times. Talking about Labour and how

they are going to fund their manifesto promises that amount to

?48 billion. She has a point? We've made a deliberate decision, partly

by borrowing and increasing taxes on the top 5%, we'll spend more money.

What Brandon describes as our fantasy politics, we've made a clear

decision to abandon austerity. The Tories have decided to keep going.

That's the choice for the country. The institute of fiscal did youedies

say they doubt very much the tax receipts will come in to fund that

?48 billion. You will tax more, the 5%. You'll spend more but you

haven't costed it in terms of guaranteeing those tax receipts.

Nobody could guarantee it. The question is what sort of return

would you get from the tax increases and our estimate is the best. But,

there are risks in relace to it. I accept that. In terms of the magic

money tree, did you get a feeling from the debate people watching and

taking part, if you look at the progressive alliance, people are fed

up with us a starity? We have to try to live within our means. We've been

up front about the fact we have to do it. You haven't paid off the

deficit. Debt is still rising. The deficit is still ?52 billion for the

year ending March this year. In a way, austerity hasn't done what it

was supposed to do. If I can finish. That highlights the key point. We

got that deficit Labour left us with. ?151 billion down to ?51

billion. That was seven years ago That's how bad it is. Labour haven't

costed this out. They've not outlined what nationalisation would

cost. How of they're going to use this Corporation Tax change they've

spent 12 times over. Corporation Tax take is going up. They have figures.

You may not like them. Where are your figures? It is easy to get them

wrong if you don't have them on social care and how many pensioners

will lose the winter fuel allowance. We've outlined our commitments. We

are delivering our priorities in the budget and manfess toe. It is using

the money the country's got rather than pretending to do things we

haven't the money for. The The figures are not there. What you are

disguising, Brandon, is what the Tories will do is cut and cut as

they said they would in the March 2017 budget. The problem you had

with the social care thing, it was very indicative of the sorts of cuts

that are coming. Take away people's... It is no different to

what it is now. It is different to what's now. Only in terms of Theresa

May saying she'll race the floor. ? Terms of people paying for social

care they do that now. They didn't have to pay for care in their homes,

now they do. We saw a lot of noisy support for Jeremy Corbyn outside

and from the audience last night. Is that enthusiasm going to transfer to

the quiet of the polling booth? I have no idea what will happen. All I

can tell you is two things. We went into this election on the basis it

was about Brexit. We're coming out of it and it's about what Britain's

going to be like. The British people or some of them, are very, very

concerned we are returning to Thatcher. The crowd which greeted

Jeremy Corbyn in Cambridge, each side of the street was lined with

people. I don't know whether they will vote. A lot are very young, if

that group of people does go the ballot box, I think we're in for

some surprises. How do you explain the change in the polls. The 24

point lead the Tories had which some polls suggest has been now slashed

to just 3 points. There are a whole range ofs poles out there. The only

pole that matters is June 8th. What people will be doing on June 8th. I

hope, what I'm getting when I talk to people on the doorstep, is make a

decision about who they want as Prime Minister. Someone who can

stand up for difficult things, say this is an issue which needs to be

dealt with. We have a plan which lab can't. Someone to get the right deal

for this country as we leave the EU. Something Jeremy didn't want to

touch on. We talked briefly about some of the noisy support for Jeremy

Corbyn outside. This Well, this morning,

the Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said he thought there

was a left-wing bias. It was a yammering

cacophony of views. Even by the BBC's own standards,

I think you would agree, that audience was notably

to the left of many And, you had Plaid Cymru and

the SNP and Liberal Democrats Of course, there was a certain sort

of echo chamber for left-wing views. Joining us from our Exeter

studio is Andrew Hawkins from the polling company ComRes,

who selected the audience. Andrew, what do you say to Boris

Johnson's complaints that was a notably left-wing audience? Well, I

mean, if you have seven party representatives and five of those

represent parties to the left and only two to the right, then the

phrase he used, yammering cock off if I, the reality was the audience

was scrupulously put together and selected and verified. I think a

politician's clapometer is probably not the best way to judge how

representative it is of the voting public. It's actually to open the

bonnet, as it were. To understand how that audience was put together.

It's like constructing a giant 3D jigsaw. You have to look at how

representative, making sure it is of the 2015 result. Making sure it is

representative of the current voting intention. Make sure it is

representative of people who voted remain and leave and make sure it is

demographically representative as well. It was. What did you think

when you watched the debate? Did you get any sense despite having gone

through those hoops and hurdles, it felt somehow one-sided or more

towards one side than the other? Yeah. Certainly, there's no question

in my mind that Amber Rudd and, to an extent, Paul Nuttall were up

against a mock vocal crowd. That's for sure. But, actually, when you

watch what the audience were doing, half the audience were clapping at

those moments and half weren't. You don't hear the ones who are not

clapping. Only the ones who do. So, actually, yeah, it's true, it was

noisy. I can understand why it came across like that. But, when you look

at what people or how people are behaving, it wasn't the case. In the

end, I presume whatever looks good on paper, the reality can somehow

appear quite different? You can, of course, get a dynamic where people

on one end of the spectrum are a reluctant to make as much noise as

people on the other end of the spectrum. There may have been a bit

of that last night as well. Thank you.

Polly Toynbee from The Guardian and Seb Payne from the Financial Times.

They're outside enjoying the sunshine.

Seb Payne, the Financial Times has come out in support of Theresa May

in this election albeit rather grudgingly. Why? We looked at the

options on offer and we did not really like any of them. Our view is

pro-market and free trade and capitalism. It really was almost an

ugly baby contest for us to see which one we felt would be the best

thing. We live in a democracy and this election is about choosing who

we want to be the next Prime Minister and we consider Jeremy

Corbyn's programme would be quite dangerous for the country

economically, it would not see growth and prosperity particularly

for our readers in the City of London and therefore, Theresa May is

probably the best person to get us through the Brexit deal. We said she

is the safer bet, not option, it is a bet because we think Brexit is a

bet and we will see how it turns out. Was the Prime Minister wrong to

skip the debate last night Polly Toynbee? Will it have major

consequences or does it not really matter? I'm not sure about major

consequences but the one thing people will take from it is that she

was there and ran away but Jeremy Corbyn was there and that was quite

important, I think. They may take away from it that Amber Rudd did

rather better than she would have done and she came out of it

reasonably well. The shy Tories in the audience did not back her up

very much. They were there but they were awfully shy. She was run out on

her own. But she made a reasonable fist of it. But as ever, what

surprises people when they see Jeremy Corbyn is that he is so much

better than they thought he would be. He has the great advantage of

having started the campaign with very low expectations and he has

well exceeded them. Going back to the issue of Brexit because

certainly both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have got speeches on

that today. Seb Payne, do you think it has come a little -- too little

and a little too late? This is part of the reset that the Conservatives

are trying to do now, focusing on Brexit because on any other topics,

they are an slightly shaky ground, like the manifesto, spending more

social care. Labour has been able to score some points there whereas an

Brexit, which is what the election was supposed to be about four

Theresa May, she's focusing on being the best person to get the Brexit

deal and having been around the country, I think voters get the

sense. When you ask do you want sitting opposite Michel Barnier,

Jean-Claude Juncker, Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron, people feel

Theresa May is probably the best person so if they focused on that

message and hammer it again and again, that is the place can

probably the get the best hay from but at this stage, it might be a bit

too late. Will it change any votes now, Polly, on the issue of Brexit?

If you drill down on what both parties are saying in the manifesto

is an Brexit, there is not much to choose between them. It is a rising

Brexit has not played bigger and it has certainly surprise the Lib Dems

who thought they were going to get a big surge on the back of this and I

was surprised and in some ways have been disappointed as well. When

people look at what Theresa May has done so far in her approach is to

Europe, it has been horrendous and aggressive. She has behaved as if

they were the enemy. She talks in kind of military terms. There's no

doubt that all that Labour's team would be infinitely better, more

emollient, treat them as friends and partners and how are we going to get

through this as best we can, both sides together? Whereas Theresa May

and her team, as written on her bus, are going at it like a bull in a

china shop. I think Labour has, Europe has not been particularly

Brett Lee towards us, Angela Merkel said this week we can't rely

Britain's only does not matter how friendly you are towards Europe,

they will be tough with us so they will be tough on both sides. It

depends what you mean by top. What you what is a deal that works well

for Europe, we don't want as Europe fall apart, even Theresa May says

she is very much does not want to do damage to Europe and I don't think

they want to do damage to us. If we get ourselves into a stupid

confrontation with people like Boris and David Davis and Liam Fox, and

now Theresa May herself as well, saying extraordinarily aggressive

things, particularly during the election, which they will regret

what they have to sit around a table with 27 other countries, a lot of

who will be fuming at the muddy being said in the election campaign.

But will they just think it is an election campaign, Seb Payne, that

it's Theresa May facing the electorate even if it hasn't all

been about Brexit up until now? Do you get a sense from other European

leaders about how they view things like the U-turn on social care? Will

they see that as an opportunity for them in negotiations? It will

certainly raise some eyebrows because the whole image that has

come from Theresa May, from the UK and British press, is of a strong

and stable leader and a lot of what we have seen in this campaign, as

people have said, is a bit more weak and wobbly. It will certainly raise

eyebrows about what will happen when they sit down and begin the

negotiations which, don't forget, will happen just two weeks after the

election is over. But ultimately at the end of the day, Europe is not

really bothered who it sits with, it just wants to get on with it and

start the article 15 process and so much of the actual debating will be

done behind closed doors, a lot of bargaining and horse trading, that

we won't actually see. And they do know ultimately, Theresa May needs

to act tough and she is trying to appeal to the 52% that backed Brexit

in the referendum. I don't think it matters too much for the original

outcome. I think you are completely wrong about that, I think the result

of this election is going to very much affect what Europe thinks of

the UK. If Labour won the election, then the profound sense in Europe

would be that the demotic talk of Mrs May, those mad allegations that

European officials and politicians were trying to interfere in the

election, was being repudiated by the British people. The view that

they see Britain as one amorphous mass is completely wrong. Finally

come on the magic money tree, Polly Toynbee, we would all like one of

course but if that line going to be pushed, I presume very hard by the

Conservatives, and that Labour's policies, which the IFS are not

wildly up to mystic about? They had said the same about the Tory

manifesto which has very little costings in it at all. I don't think

that we might Labour has suggested spending any more than the Tories

are going to be spending on tax cuts, corporation tax, inheritance

tax, taxes that benefit business and the better off. Enormously

extravagant tax cuts that the country certainly cannot afford at a

time when our public services are falling apart and I think that is

going to be the tension. Does she really mean austerity? No, she means

giving away money to some people while taking yet more away from

everybody's public services. Polly Toynbee and Seb Payne, thank you.

Now, the Daily Politics moodbox is on tour during the election

campaign, and today Ellie is in the Lincolnshire town of Skegness.

You have got the weather for it! On a beach, I can see.

They say it is bracing in Skegness but actually, it is just lovely and

warm and very nice. It has been well documented that Skegness and Boston

voted decidedly for Brexit in last year's EU referendum, 75% voted to

Leave which is one of the recent Ukip have got their eyes on this

seat at the coming general election. Of course, there is one week to go

before we vote, when people in this town and around the country make

that big decision but have people made the decision? There's a week to

go, is there any point in any of the politicians are still campaigning?

That is what we are asking today. Our people decided or undecided?

Have you decided who you'll vote for in the election?

What, what made you make your decision?

I just decided that it's better to keep what we have at the moment.

Because they're all as bad as one another.

They make promises and it doesn't come off.

He hasn't even decided if he's going to make a decision!

We want to do what's best for the disabled.

We're not sure which party yet is going to do that.

Because of the weak leadership of the Labour Party,

I've decided to vote for Theresa May for the first time ever

which is really a break with family tradition.

Trying to do what's best for the country

and I think Jeremy Corbyn isn't best for this country.

I think Theresa May's just wanting it for herself and what she wants

I don't think she's taken anybody else into consideration.

There's been too much on the news for me to take it in.

Otherwise I would decide, if I could understand it a bit more.

Just listening to the policies of parties.

Forget the fighting between the politicians,

it's politics which is what's important.

Doesn't affect me or my wages or my house or anything.

Do you really not think it does? No.

The good people of Skegness and those on holiday here

The trouble is, I can't decide whether it's the decideds

or undecideds who've won our moodbox today.

The one thing I have decided is I need an ice cream!

It's a tough job, but someone has got to do it, what a glorious day!

Throughout this election, we've been speaking to the smaller parties also

standing for election and today it's the turn of the SDP,

The SDP was founded in March 1981 by four

former Labour members - dubbed the Gang Of Four.

The party say they would actively

campaign for a fair, controlled and harmonious Brexit

process in the best interests of the British people and with due

consideration to our EU friends and neighbours.

They would offer free school breakfast and lunch

Remove all tax from those earning the minimum wage.

Remove all tax from those They would introduce annual

referendums to coincide with May elections to cover issues such

as the death penalty, hunting and euthanasia.

And they would ensure that all train operators provide high quality free

Wi-Fi on routes that exceed 30 minutes.

And we're joined by the SDP's

Thank you for joining us. The party survived, I thought it had gone out

of existence! It's been going for 27 years. It has not stopped. As it

almost faded into nonexistence and come back? I think there's been a

bit of a resurgence over the past few months. Few months? Absolutely,

as the previous... I mean, politics has really changed, hasn't it?

You've got all of the different parties changing their direction,

changing their position, Labour on the far left now and the Tories

going far right and the Lib Dems going far-fetched. There's a big gap

in the middle. Right, except you have also changed your mind because

last year you were the Parliamentary candidate for Ukip in the Sheffield

Brightside by-election and he finished second, so when did you

switch parties? A few months ago, there two parties that are boys

campaign for Brexit, the SDP were campaigning for Brexit... Which is a

complete change from its early days. For over 20 years, they have been

Eurosceptic, they campaign to withdraw and not join the European

single currency, they campaign... Mike Baird I would not associated

with Roy Jenkins, a bit of a shift. A total shift but does that mean you

are closer with Ukip as a result of your scepticism in the SDP? Totally

not, the SDP has always stood for direct democracy and proportional

representation, democracy meaning being ruled by the electorate, not

the EU, all the way through, since the Lisbon Treaty, the Maastricht

Treaty, the SDP has campaigned for withdrawal from the European Union.

But as recently as January, in terms of your party allegiance, you

tweeted Brexit is going to vote in the House of Commons, and if you

want Brexit, vote Ukip to make your voice heard. So why should anyone

believe you have genuinely switched allegiance? All parties have changed

their position and if you are a person of integrity, you don't just

follow the party line. The Labour Party has shifted and a lot of the

politicians have shifted with the party rather than their own beliefs.

The Conservatives, the same. My view has always been all along,

democracy, leave the European Union and now obviously as the Ukip party

line has shifted, mine has not. I'm not just going to follow that party.

What attracted you to the failure that has been the SDP? You can argue

they influenced the Labour Party. Changed their direction. Also

changed the direction the Conservative Party is going in. In

that way, how do you measure success? In power or influence

flewence. The SDP has opportunity to exert influence. If If you've moved

from Ukip to SDP? Who had confidence in Lord Owen? He blue up the SDP. Is

it filled with people like you who are constantly changing our

position. People think you're mad. Maybe this do. If you look at andy

Taylor, a member since 1982, and through to 2017 for the SDP? It has

continued, relentless, quietly in the background trying to work with

vote Leaf and others to achieve its goal. You're standing a good slate

of cand says in Sheffield and that's it? In Glasgow as Ant well. We're

starting slowly but surely. June 9th will be a very different state of

politician. Either Jeremy Corbyn's party will be victorious, unlikely.

What are the Labour moderates going to do? Form their own party? Nobody

knows what will happen next. What the last two years has taught us is

you just expect the unexpected. Can I tell you one thing for certain.

The one thing that will not happen is people will move to the SDP Will

you have Labour moderates going over to the other party? No, we are not.

You can't speak. If you ask Labour both people in the parliamentary

Labour Party and the wider activists, are they united behind a

manifesto that says an end to austerity, retains Trident... Are

they united behind Jeremy Corbyn, that's the problem? There have been

issues about Jeremy Corbyn. Ultimately what happens in the

general election and what our basic policy is will determine... No be

predict what had happen next or the attitudes of politicians. No-one

will predict what party you'll be in next. Thank you for coming in.

So what else has been going on in the campaign?

It was sunny. It might have gone behind a cloud. Tip for viewers. If

you are out on the campaign trail and you happen to spot a celebrity,

well, you need to have your selfie technique nailed. Like this. There

you go. We've got it pretty good, Jo, though you don't look too happy

to be in my selfie. Sorry!

Selfie's take practice. One candidate has been lending a hand

with that today. Another thought for you. Back when I was 16, I got up to

many things. But voting, of course, wasn't one of them. Whether to lower

the legal voting age is a subject that came up for discussion at a BBC

locality radio event. We start today's round-up with a question

from a student in Sheffield. There may have been a few blushes

on the BBC Sheffield election debate panel when the President

of the local college Student Union, So, why can't we just

get votes at 16? At 16 you're old enough

to marry your MP, have sex with your MP and go to war and fight

for your MP and die for your MP, The Labour, the Lib Dems

and the Green Party all support For today only, you can pick up

a copy of the left-wing socialist newspaper,

The Morning Star, for free. Copies of the paper's

Election Special are being given away in shops instead

of at the usual prize of ?1. And, mastering the art

of selfies with Boris Johnson. Now, where's that screen

flip button thing? It's out of focus and you're

barely in frame but post The ghost train at Thorpe Park just

got even more terrifying. These frightening characters will

chase thrillseekers on the ride, Ukip's David Kurten's been outlining

plans for education this morning. We need to challenge the viewpoint

that says academic schools are up here and everything else is down

there and selection is bad. Saying some children should be

released from school age 14 And Jeremy Corbyn's following in

the footsteps of Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber and Rihanna by gracing

the cover the NME. Now, as we've been speaking,

Theresa May has been setting out her vision of Brexit as a "great

national mission" that offers the promise of

transforming this country. Later today, Jeremy Corbyn will also

deliver a speech on Brexit, giving Labour's view

of the opportunities Negotiations with Brussels are set

to formally begin 11 days after the election,

so where exactly do the parties stand regarding this

country's future relationship The Conservatives intend

to leave the single market And seek a "deep and

special partnership" The free movement of people

from the EU would end. A Great Repeal Bill would

incorporate EU law into UK law. Labour says it would scrap

the current Brexit white paper. And that its negotiations

would emphasise securing a tariff-free relationship

with the single market The party says free movement

will end after Brexit and they'd And would immediately guarantee

the rights of all EU The Liberal Democrats want to stay

members of the single And they want a referendum

on the final deal. The SNP, likewise, want

to protect Scotland's place And they are demanding a place

for the Scottish Government Ukip, meanwhile, want to ensure

a clean break with the single market, the customs union

and the ECJ. And they insist there should be no

Brexit divorce bill, or future contributions

to the EU budget. Let's hear what the Prime

Minister has been saying We had hoped to hear from Theresa

May's speech but she's running a late. Brandon Lewis joins us. What

does the great national exit mean in terms of hard policies? It is

recognising there is an opportunity here. We've made a decision as a

country, which we've been clear we'll deliver on. We want to take

this opportunity to be a more global, outward looking country to

do trade deals around the world and with our European partners. To do

something people on doorsteps yesterday when I was out are clear

about. They want to see the parties very clearly dealing with

immigration. Something the Labour Party isn't doing. How does that

translate into policies. I would argue we don't know much more than

we did several months ago in terms of what the offer is from the

Conservatives or Labour in those terms. What does it mean in hard

policy terms? We do know more. I think first of all, from the Labour

point of view, I was debating with Diane Abbott earlier. ... Labour's

said in their manifesto they want an end to freedom of movement. I will

tackle Charlie Fawke on on what that means. A clear point for us is

immigration should be at sustainable levels. Tens of thousands. We need

to negotiate good trade deals with countries around the world. Attract

the by the and best to come here to continue to grow our economy. I

still don't know how you'll achieve those things through policy. Since

you brought up immigration, the Labour manifesto says it will be an

end to free movement. How many people on a net migration basis

should be coming here year-on-year? I don't think that's possible to

say. The Prime Minister would agree with that. You should stop people

being able to come unless they have a job and the job has got to be

something that somebody in the UK can't do. You'll end all unskilled

labour coming from the EU? In relation to unskilled labour, there

will be significant areas in the British economy where you will need

unskilled labour. The focus in immigration terms, has to be what

promotes the UK economy. When I say what promotes the UK economy, I moo

entwo things. You shouldn't be taking jobs away from the UK where

there are people who want those jobs. Secondly, have you to identify

where there are bits of industry, bits of economic activity, where if

you did take away the immigration, not just from the European Union but

elsewhere, that would damage the economy. What does that mean in

terms of farming and agriculture. Already they're expressing fears

they won't be able to get the seasonal workers they need. Would

you be happy to see unskilled working coming to work in that

industry? I don't know what the numbers are. If you needed unskilled

workers in agriculture and couldn't provide that from our own

population, you would need to allow that to happen. We'd still have

unskilled workers coming from the EU I believe we will in certain areas.

If terms of the numbers of tens of thousands, it hasn't been hit

before. Now you haven't put a timescale on when you will reach

that. Do you need to put a timescale on it? We are clear we want to do

something positive to the economy over the course of the next

Parliament. You have a target. Criticised Labour for not having a

target. You haven't said when you'd deliver it? . We did, over the

course of the next Parliament. By 2020? The draft figures that came

out last week for the last year show the policies taken forward by

Theresa May in part when she was Home Secretary as well as Prime

Minister are working. We've seen an 85,000 fall in the last year alone.

This is building on the work we've done, change how social housing is

allowed and upskilling people here to take on these jobs. How long will

that take. You talk about this upskilling, how long will that take?

The upskilling of the British population when you'll remove EU

immigrants? This is a holistic approach. We are not just

controlling our borders but also having that industrial strategy. We

bring in apprenticeships. How long will it take? The benefit we're

already seeing, more and more people getting into work. Two million

people into the economy... I'm talking about reduction in

immigration. We've seen 8 a,000 fall in the last year alone. The British

people want to see a Government that is clearly looking to deal with this

issue. That's... What is extraordinary is they slay they'll

bring it down to 10,000 within five years. Mrs May's been the Home

Secretary for six years and has failed repeatedly year after year.

Why not do something in relation to non-EU immigration which is well

over 100,000 net at the moment? As you know full well, Charlie, you

were overtalking me earlier on, this is a Home Secretary who's you is

down 900 bogus colleges offer the nine years. Has it brought numbers

down? Yes, it is. If you look at the figures just last week aLen, it is

down 85,000 just last year alone because of the work done over the

last few years that is now flowing through. There is always more to do.

We cant to tackle this challenge. It is not clear in the Labour

manifesto. Developing and implementing fair immigration rules.

No-one can disagree with that. Depends what you mean by clear. Has

Labour got a clear, identifiable stance on immigration? You stop

people coming from the E. Without any proper basis. You said you would

be prepared to have seasonal workers coming in. They are unskilled.

Aagree. That is a basis. What about other sectors? Equal numbers coming

in on retail. Hospitality? Our policy is you identify what the

needs of the economy are in a particular... The needs could be

300,000 and you would be happy with that? You have to try to reduce free

movement of the labour. What's coming at the moment are people

coming for work and people who have no job. I think it will be reduced.

I don't know by how much. You're saying tens of thousands in five

years' time? Over the course of the Parliament. By 2022, that's at

guarantee. EU or non-EU? Mying Gration levels coming down to

sustainable levels, tens of thousands over the next Parliament.

You will be held to account over that issue? That's in our manifesto.

Labour wants tariff-free trade but won't advocate membership of the

customs Euanen. Free movement will end. How is your position any

different to Brandon's? We want a close re-Laoisship with the EU. If

the Government stays in power, how can you expect to have a close

relationship with the EU when Mrs May's language about how she will

deal with the EU is one of hostility and confrontation? She accused... In

policy terms, that's not a difference. Having a close

relationship or less close, these are words. In terms of policies, how

is the Labour position in terms of Brexit negotiations any different to

the Conservatives? We will do everything we can can to get an

greechlt. It is very like lie will be different in result. That's the

key thing that matters. You can get completely tariff-free trade and not

have freedom of the movement? We've said specifically we're not having

freedom of movement. We'll aim for a tariff-free deal. They won't give it

to us? No, we'll have to negotiate it. You've admitted there is no

policy difference between what the Conservatives are trying to get in

these Brexit negotiations and what you're doing. It is difficult to

tell, Jo, the Tories are so vague about how they'll conduct these

negotiations I think there's a big difference.

Compared to what Corbyn and his ministers say and what is in the

shadow manifesto and he has said he does not be with everything in it so

it is whether you can deliver. Theresa May from the beginning has

been clear as Prime Minister that she wanted to do with Europe and I

think we can get a good deal, and optimistically about free trade for

this country. But he said about it is worse than no deal. Labour's plan

for the immigration go up and Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott have said

that themselves but she wants a deal which is good for us and our

partners in Europe, working together to get a good deal because these are

partners we want to trade with as was dreading globally so to suggest

otherwise is misleading. And that we have to call it a day. Thank you for

joining us, Brandon, and Theresa May has just about to begin her speech!

Timing is everything. Now, in the run-up to election day

we've been talking to each of the five largest parties

in Northern Ireland. Today we're joined by

Colum Eastwood, leader of the SDLP, the Social Democratic and Labour

Party. Thank you for joining us. Three of

the largest Northern Irish parties are opposed Brexit, which he painted

as the major issue at this election. Why should people choose your party

over the others? Of course, the SDLP is the most pro-European party in

Ireland, probably on these islands. We always pro-Europe, whereas Sinn

Fein, the other pro-European party now, were not pro-Europe until a

couple of months ago, even just a year ago, before the referendum,

they did not campaign against Brexit as part of the referendum but we are

glad now that they are on our side. We were the party coming up with the

answers around ideas or special status, using the Good Friday

agreement to protect our interests, the customs union and the single

market status for our businesses and people. So the SDLP have a very

strong and proud record on Europe. The other thing is, we will actually

turn up to Westminster and vote and speak and be counted when it comes

to the debates on Brexit as we go through these negotiations. How many

seats do you think you will get? What will be a successful result for

you? Let's see, I don't do predictions, we have three seat at

the minute and we would like to retain those three otherwise our

main opponents in most of those constituencies are either the DUP

who will be cheerleaders for Theresa May or Sinn Fein, who are abstention

is the MPs and will not turn up at all. If Sinn Fein get their way, we

will end up with a situation where there will not be an Irish

nationalist representation in Westminster at all. That would be a

very bad thing. You are calling for a referendum on Irish unity after

Brexit. You say a border poll is no longer solely the project of Irish

nationalism but a pro-European internationalism but isn't that

something you want to be true rather than something with any real

evidence behind it? Well, first what I said is that the border poll is

part of the Good Friday agreement, we wrote it into the Good Friday

agreement and we recognise it should not happen right now. We think what

we have to do right now is first of all get the Northern Ireland

institutions up and running, deal with the issues around Brexit and

then look at the border poll after that has settled. But to allow work

on the Brexit committee and our work with partners in Dublin and Europe,

we have made sure that the European Union and the British government

have now recognised that a united Ireland would automatically mean

entering the European Union, that is unique situation because of the Good

Friday agreement and the principles within. But it's not happening at

the moment, you would accept? No, we know there's an enormous amount of

work to do and we're not saying it should happen right away, we are

saying it should happen in a positive and democratic way, to

ensure that Unionism feels part of the positive, democratic

conversation but we have a significant change in Northern

Ireland which means because of the work of the SDLP, it is now about

re-entering the European Union and I think that changes the debate from

being a very narrow debate to a much broader debate that I think makes a

border poll much more winnable for a nationalist perspective. Let me ask

you about Jeremy Corbyn, your partner is a traditional sister

party to the Labour Party so would you be happy to work with him in

Parliament? Yes, we have already and with other parties. If the polls are

right, we could end up having to work with a number of parties,

including the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the green party and we would be very

open to a progressive alliance to try to make sure we don't have a

Tory government who don't seem to have any interest in protecting the

interests of people in Ireland. They don't seem to have any interest in

trying to avoid a hard Brexit which would mean a hard border for our

people and businesses of this island. Of course, we will work with

a progressive alliance to try to make sure we get a very different

type of outcome from Brexit. Thank you for joining us.

Now our guest of the day, Charlie Falconer, used to be

a member of Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet.

Many were surprised he agreed to serve as Shadow Justice Secretary,

considering he and Mr Corbyn come from very different places

Then last June, after a year in post, he resigned -

along with 18 of his cabinet colleagues, warning that Labour

would "be left for dead" if it failed to unite

So how does Tony Blair's former flatmate feel

How do you feel? Have you changed your mind, have you had to review

your thoughts and feelings about Jeremy Corbyn? He the leader of the

Labour Party. I know that. We are committed other party to doing our

best to win this election. But you have not changed your personal view

about Jeremy Corbyn? He's performed incredibly well in the course of

this general election campaign and the difference between him and

Theresa May is marked, he is calm and clear and brave and I think is

connecting particularly with young people and particularly with people

who have not voted before. I mentioned it before on the programme

and it was interesting to see the response he got as he arrived at the

Cambridge debate yesterday. There are still big policy difference

between you and him and his supporters, you supported the war in

Iraq, a war he opposed and has said was illegal. Last week in a speech

days after the Manchester attack, he suggested it contributed to the risk

of terror attacks here in the UK. Do you accept that? I don't think the

attacks in Manchester were caused by either the Iraq

war or anything the British government did. So you disagree with

Jeremy Corbyn? In relation to that, there would be a different emphasis,

yes. Because he said the foreign policy of Tony Blair and other

governments, like the one you are part of God is in some way linked to

being a recruiting Sergeant for people who go on to commit attacks?

He has said that and we would both be, Jeremy and I, completely united

in saying it is an abomination, what happened in Manchester... Everyone

agrees that. And we would also agree to other things, in so the security

services, the police, army and intelligence services, need

additional resources, they should be provided and we also agree that in

relation to anti-terrorist measures in legislation, there should be

appropriate judicial oversight. But you did not vote against the

terrorist legislation, and he did, he voted against every single one

and was the right to do that? I think he was wrong in relation to

particular issues but he has made clear subsequently he is not against

the state having those powers. But he's voted against all the

legislation in the past? He said because he thinks there was

inadequate judicial oversight. But he's voted against lots of

organisations people would generally think are pretty dreadful being

prescribed? Was he right? We disagreed at the time, but the

question now is do I agree, it is not of interest to the electorate

but what is my position in relation to the manifesto? I support it. Was

it appropriate for Jeremy Corbyn to make that political speech so soon

after the Manchester attack? It is right he should express his views in

relation to it. He has got to be straightforward with the British

public and they have to make a judgment about that. I don't think

it is wrong on an issue of such grievous significance to the nation,

namely the abominable attacks in Manchester, that the Leader of the

Opposition in the middle of a campaign, should not set out his

views. He was right to do so. Let's talk about the nuclear deterrent,

Jeremy Corbyn's position is very clear but he has said if he becomes

Prime Minister, his government will conduct a comprehensive defence

review and that would also take into account the renewal of Trident

nuclear deterrent, which of course, Mr Corbyn is very clear he does not

support and therefore, could once again be in doubt. Are you

comfortable with that? My understanding is that the review

will not consider the question of whether or not Trident... That is

not clear at all because it will include everything, that is what

Jeremy Corbyn has said and he is the leader of the party. I am relying on

what Nia Griffiths said. Using the shadow defence spokesman has a

clearer view than the leader of the party? My understanding is it is

accepted by the leader of the party that Trident is accepted by the

Labour Party and that is what the manifesto says. In a recent

interview, Michael Vick Andrew Neil asked on whether the defence review

would include Trident? Jeremy Corbyn said it would look at the role of

nuclear weapons as well as a reading which means it will be included.

Well, we can debate the small print, my position is that I am in favour

of retaining Trident. That is the position of the Labour Party in

terms of policy. I understand Jeremy Corbyn access that so I don't think

there is a difference between us, despite what you are saying. The

public record suggest that during the Troubles, Jeremy Corbyn met

members of the IRA, which I'm sure you know, on several occasions. He

says he was working for peace rather than honouring the armed struggle

but Seamus Mallon, one of the architects of the peace process,

said he never heard anyone mention Corbyn in the peace process and that

he clearly took the side of the IRA which was incompatible with working

for peace. In your mind, because you know Jeremy Corbyn and have known

him for a long time, did he play a role in the peace process? I don't

know in relation to any of that. I'm absolutely sure that Jeremy wanted

peace so I can't comment on the detail. Let's look at some of the

domestic policy commie called the idea of bringing the national grid

into public ownership going too far, saying that it would involve vast

expenditure when there are so many other things we should be spending

money on. You say you are supporting the Labour manifesto so you have

changed your mind? I support the thrust of the manifesto, the precise

detail of whether or not... This is not detail, this is a big policy,

renationalising utilities. And for example, renationalising the

railways, I would be strongly in favour of that. Are you in favour of

public ownership of the national grid? I think it is something for

much later, not necessarily straightaway. All the polling

companies have Labour on a high share of the vote than they scored

at the 2015 general election so despite the warnings from you and

others in the party, it suggests Jeremy Corbyn is more popular with

the public than Ed Miliband, does that surprise you? I think the

public have gone quite a long journey and what they are thinking

at the moment is that it is a choice between the Tories and Labour, and

what life would be like. People remember how bad things have been in

the 1980s under the Tories and this government has been in power

effectively for seven years and they are absolutely fed up with the

continuation of unnecessary austerity. Does it surprise you that

Jeremy Corbyn could poll better in terms of national vote share than Ed

Miliband? No it doesn't because the choice as it emerged in this

election was not ultimately about Brexit because I think people think

we have made our decision as a country about that, the choice is

between Theresa May leading the Tory party and Jeremy Corbyn leading the

Labour Party and I think the public are now making up their mind which

of the two they want and the other interesting thing that has happened

in the election is the smaller parties have been pushed to the

side. It is a big choice. Quickly because we're coming up, tuition

fees, the manifesto commitment, ?11 billion to abolish them and you are

part of the government that introduced it, is it the right

policy to abolish them? You need to to see the effect on the public

finances. That has been done. Looking at the effect on the public

finances, it is a possible policy. I'm not opposed to it as part of the

overall package. Now, as part of the BBC's general

election coverage, our very own Andrew is talking to the main party

leaders in in-depth interviews. Tonight, it's the turn

of the Liberal Democrat leader. with Tim Farron

tonight at 7pm on BBC One. That's all for today.

Thanks to our guests. Particularly to Charlie Falconer for

being the guest of the day. You said there had been an earthquake in the

Labour Party when Mr Corbyn was elected, do you think it marked the

end of the Blairite Iraq? It certainly did! -- Blairite era.

And Andrew will also be back again tonight with This Week on BBC One

As voters prepare to go to the polls

the Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron joins me