Browse content similar to 05/06/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics and Westminster, | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
where campaigning ahead of the general election goes | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
on in the wake of Saturday's terror attack in London. | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
Police are said to know the identity of the three attackers who killed | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
seven people and injured 48 near London Bridge, | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
the third attack of its kind in the UK in just 10 weeks. | :00:53. | :01:03. | |
As the investigation continues, Prime Minister Theresa May | :01:04. | :01:05. | |
says "enough is enough", promising to end the UK's | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says she ignored warnings about the risks | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
We'll be talking about the political impact of the attack. | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
The election is now just days away, and we've been in Northern Ireland | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
looking at the possible impact of Brexit at the ballot box. | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
And should you believe what you read in the opinion polls? | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
We'll try and explain why the pollsters can't agree on much | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
It isn't an exact science, is it, because what people say | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
about what they're going to do isn't necessarily what | :01:35. | :01:36. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole | :01:37. | :01:46. | |
of the programme today, it's the former Conservative Justice | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
Minister Dominic Raab, and the Shadow Health Secretary | :01:49. | :01:59. | |
So let's begin by talking about Saturday's attack | :02:00. | :02:08. | |
Police investigating the latest terrorist incident to affect the UK | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
say they know the identity of the three attackers who murdered | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
seven and injured 48, and say they will release the names | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
They were shot and killed by police after driving into pedestrians | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
on the bridge in Central London and stabbing people in nearby | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
Borough Market, and the names of some of the victims have also | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
Let's get the latest on this ongoing investigation from our home | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
affairs correspondent, Daniel Sandford. | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
Tell us the latest developments. As you say, police are almost | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
certain of the identities of the men who drove across the bridge and | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
started stabbing people in the pubs and restaurants nearby in Borough | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
Market. We in the media are also aware of the identity of at least | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
one of those but we are being asked by the police not to broadcast them | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
for operational reasons at the moment. I think we may get the names | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
officially announced as early as this afternoon but that does depend | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
on what happens in terms of arrests and raids over the next few hours. | :03:06. | :03:14. | |
One of the men is definitely a Pakistani man living in the Barking | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
area and another man we are hearing from Irish sources likely had an | :03:18. | :03:19. | |
Irish identity card and what of Moroccan origin but we will hear | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
more about that in the afternoon. 11 people are currently in custody, 12 | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
having been arrested, one of the men was released soon afterwards. Most | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
of those people were arrested at one address in Barking, another one | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
close by. We had two fresh raids overnight, one in the borough of | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
Barking and one in the borough of Newham, we had camera crews at both | :03:47. | :03:48. | |
of those, lots of police activity at those but still this is early days, | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
the police pretty much know who did it, the question is who helped them. | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
We now know five plots have been disrupted between the Manchester | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
attack two weeks ago and that on Saturday night. As the volume always | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
been that high? No, I don't think it has. It has | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
been exceptionally high since 2014, we are talking about 18 plots I | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
think since 2014 have been disrupted but there seems to have been an | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
acceleration since the Westminster attack on March the 22nd this year. | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
I think a failing in police circles and security service circles is | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
there is a degree of copycat or inspiration as a result of that, | :04:29. | :04:39. | |
they noticed how much attention and shock was caused by bad attack on | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
March the 22nd and that have encouraged people to accelerate | :04:43. | :04:44. | |
their own plans, so you are essentially have since March the | :04:45. | :04:46. | |
22nd two successful attacks on the UK and five what the police believe | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
were unsuccessful attacks on the UK, and I think that is the highest | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
level we have really ever seen, it wasn't the rate at which we saw it | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
in the IRA era and even in the Al-Qaeda area we were not getting | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
them coming into the UK at that kind of rate. | :05:04. | :05:04. | |
Daniel, thank you. This attack followed hard | :05:05. | :05:05. | |
on the heels of the bombing at a pop concert in Manchester less | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
than two weeks ago. Last night, the singer Ariana Grande | :05:09. | :05:10. | |
returned to the city for a benefit concert to remember the victims | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
of that suicide bomb. # But don't look back | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
in anger, I heard you say. I love you guys so much, | :05:17. | :05:29. | |
and I think that the kind of love and unity that you're displaying | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
is the medicine that the world So I want to thank you | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
for being just that. And I want to thank you for coming | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
tonight, I love you so much. Ariana Grande there at the concert. | :05:42. | :05:54. | |
You're bored after yet another terror attack, this time on the | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
streets of London? -- your thoughts. Horrific attack, good to see | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
Manchester getting back on its feet and responding with courage and | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
positivity. In terms of London, I know that area quite well, I worked | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
there my early career as a lawyer, I used to socialise there, it is | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
horrific. Our thoughts are with the victims and families as well, and a | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
huge credit to the public and security services, particularly the | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
police, eight minutes from the first call to arriving and decisively | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
dealing with, killings of three terrorists involved. We need to hold | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
our nerve, there will be lots of talk about what we should do next, I | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
know we will come onto that but I think as politicians as well we need | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
to get on with our democracy and protect our democracy, and go to the | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
polls on Thursday. We don't let the fanatics get the victory of | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
disrupting our democracy, that would be the gift they want. There has | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
been a great show of resilience, as you said, and if there was an | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
attempt to disrupt our way of life, people going out and enjoying | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
themselves at a concert or on the streets of London, that tribute | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
concert last night to the victims showed that people are not afraid? | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
No, it is a strong message from a younger crowd, young audience, young | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
artist, but people right across the generations will be proud that | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
Britain is getting back up off its knees and continuing to do the | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
things not just that we need to do but want to do and as a politician I | :07:23. | :07:29. | |
am keen, I have a hustings this evening, we get on and we show that | :07:30. | :07:30. | |
we will not be cowed. Thank you. So, what does Saturday's | :07:31. | :07:38. | |
attack mean for Thursday's general election? | :07:39. | :07:40. | |
Well, there are questions for both main parties to answer | :07:41. | :07:42. | |
on their record in dealing with terrorism and how they propose | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
As Home Secretary, a post she held for seven years, | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
Theresa May presided over a 22% cut to the police budget | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
There are now 19,000 fewer police compared to 2010, | :07:53. | :08:02. | |
with the Labour Party accusing the Conservatives of trying to | :08:03. | :08:04. | |
The Government points out that, since 2015, the policing | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
And that funding for counterterrorism has been increasing | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
However, with the police monitoring around 3000 subjects of interest, | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
and three terror incidents in the last three months, | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
Theresa May has been criticised for replacing control orders, | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
which placed terror suspects under intense supervision, | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
with what have been described as "looser" rules. | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
However, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has also come in for criticism | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
after he admitted he'd spent his career opposing key pieces | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
of anti-terror legislation, leaving the Conservatives to claim | :08:41. | :08:41. | |
he can't be trusted with the nation's security. | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
In 2011, Mr Corbyn joined Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell and | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott in voting against putting al-Qaeda | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
on a Government list of proscribed terrorist organisations. | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
Two years ago, the Labour leader said he wasn't happy over the police | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
shoot-to-kill policy, although last night he said | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
he would take whatever action was "necessary and effective" | :09:04. | :09:05. | |
Mr Corbyn has also faced uncomfortable questions | :09:06. | :09:16. | |
about his associations with the IRA and members of Hamas, | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
which the UK Government considers a terrorist organisation. | :09:20. | :09:21. | |
Both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have been | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
criticising each other over this issue - let's have a look | :09:26. | :09:27. | |
at the Labour leader speaking last night, | :09:28. | :09:29. | |
and the Prime Minister speaking at an event this morning. | :09:30. | :09:31. | |
You cannot protect the public on the cheap. | :09:32. | :09:33. | |
The police and security services must get the resources they need, | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
Theresa May was warned by the Police Federation, | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
Safeguarding the security of our country takes leadership. | :09:44. | :09:51. | |
That's why since 2010, in the face of a growing threat, | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
we protected the budget for counterterrorism policing | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
and increased the resources available to the security | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
It's why, since 2015, when Jeremy Corbyn's front bench | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
was arguing for the police to be cut by a further 10%, we've | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
not cut the police, but protected their budget. | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. I can welcome Jonathan Ashworth now to the | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
Daily Politics but I will start with Dominic Raab. Labour has accused the | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
Conservatives of giving security on the cheap and there is evidence for | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
that? I'm afraid if you look at, just take the evidence from this | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
terrible attack at London Bridge, within eight minutes the armed | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
police were there responding decisively and taking out of the | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
three terrorists. Talking about having other ordinary bobbies on the | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
beat is not going to deal with an attack like that, it would be deeply | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
irresponsible, we have already seen some of the ordinary officers that | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
were involved suffering injuries. You need to be willing to have the | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
armed police, we are putting 1500 more armed officers at the service | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
of the country, you need to have them trained and equipped and | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
ultimately willing to take out the terrorists, and I think really what | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
we have seen from Jeremy Corbyn is an attempt to deflect on the | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
questions you have rightly put out in your clip that he needs to | :11:11. | :11:19. | |
answer. Theresa May has been Home Secretary for six years, | :11:20. | :11:20. | |
assiduously, robustly, but calmly, doing whatever it takes to protect | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
the country from terrorism. Except police numbers have gone down, she | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
has been Home Secretary for seven years previous to being Prime | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
Minister and police budgets were cut by a fifth. Crime is down a third. | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
But if we are looking at the numbers, if there is any claim to | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
the evidence from -- any evidence to the claim from Labour that policing | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
is being done on the cheap, 19,000 fewer officers on the streets, 1000 | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
fewer armed officers ready for deployment, with the benefit of | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
hindsight, do you think the public deserve an apology from the | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
Government for cutting numbers? No, this is wrong... The figures are not | :11:56. | :12:02. | |
wrong. Crime has been cut by a third. What you cannot pretend is | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
you are going to send an ordinary bobby on the beat in to deal with | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
the kind of horrific attack we saw on the weekend. Just an illustration | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
of this... These are police officers I'm talking about, these are police | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
numbers. To deal with a terrorist attack, which is the issue of the | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
day, you need to have them armed and authorised to go in, and even the | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
armed officers dealing with people with explosives around their bodies | :12:27. | :12:36. | |
were incredibly brave. You couldn't expect to have ordinarily bobbies | :12:37. | :12:38. | |
going to deal with that. What Jeremy Corbyn is dealing with that is | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
deeply irresponsible. Let's be clear on the number of armed police, have | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
they fallen, the numbers, since 2010? My understanding is since 2015 | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
our commitment has been to putting 1500... Since 2010 they have fallen, | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
haven't they, armed officers? I am not sure of the headline numbers. | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
The Met Commissioner Cressida Dick said the armed police are properly | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
resourced. But they also have to be is properly armed and trained and | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
authorised to take the decisive action that they did on Saturday. | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
Otherwise more people would be suffering. Jonathan Ashworth, we | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
talked about the response time, armed police were there in eight | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
minutes otherwise I'm sure the carnage would have been much worse. | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
In a way, they have got the resources and the numbers that they | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
need, they responded very effectively, didn't they? | :13:25. | :13:36. | |
Can I just say, could I have not had the chance, because I was late, I | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
have huge praise for the extraordinarily brave response from | :13:41. | :13:42. | |
the police and emergency services on Saturday evening, they really make | :13:43. | :13:44. | |
you proud to be British. On the broader point, we have seen cuts | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
while Theresa May was Home Secretary of 20,000 police officers. On your | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
point of armed police, cut by 1000 by Theresa May since 2010. A lot of | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
the security agencies have seen their budget cuts while Theresa May | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
was Home Secretary. They have been cut since 2010 while Theresa May was | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
Home Secretary. Let me finish. The Conservative Party have wanted to | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
position this election as a referendum on Theresa May so it is | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
only fair that we scrutinise her record as Home Secretary, and hers | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
is one where 20,000 police officers were cut, 1000 armed police cut, | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
security agencies cut and I'm not convinced that her whole line about, | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
she is going to stand up and make our streets safer, I don't think it | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
is true. I will let you talk in a second because you and your | :14:31. | :14:32. | |
colleagues have always said, Judge us on our record, and we are judging | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
you on this specific record and also the fact that Theresa May said | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
yesterday, enough is enough, which is a strange phrase because you | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
might have asked what is bothering her now that did not bother her | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
before. On police numbers, Jeremy Corbyn has gone so far as to say she | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
should resign over the cuts in police numbers. What do you say to | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
that? Labour's position in 2015 was that | :14:55. | :15:07. | |
we should cut police numbers possibly by up to 10% so it is rank | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
hypocrisy. On the question of judging us on our record, when you | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
judge a Government Prime Minister it is on what you do in practice and on | :15:14. | :15:15. | |
Saturday night, in horrific circumstances, there was a terrific | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
response, within eight minutes they were taken out, not just because we | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
have the right resources but the right leadership, willing to do the | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
difficult things that need to be done in that situation. Jeremy | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
Corbyn has done a U-turn overnight... Let's talk about that. | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
Leadership and response is important, people have to know what | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
action is going to be taken and whether they have political support. | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
Do you share your leader's view that there are problems with the current | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
shoot-to-kill policy that the police used on Saturday night? Our leaders | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
spoke out last night that he is clear that he would support the | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
police taking similar action in similar circumstances in the future. | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
Let's listen to what he said two years ago on this. | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
If we saw the kind of horror in Paris here, | :16:05. | :16:06. | |
if you were Prime Minister, would you order security services | :16:07. | :16:08. | |
onto the street to stop people being killed? | :16:09. | :16:10. | |
Of course you'd bring people onto the streets to prevent | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
and ensure there is safety within our society. | :16:14. | :16:15. | |
Much better that's done by the police than the security | :16:16. | :16:17. | |
services, much better we have strong and effective community policing, | :16:18. | :16:19. | |
neighbourhood policing and a cohesive society that | :16:20. | :16:21. | |
Obviously that is essential, and so that's one of the messages | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
I will be putting to the Prime Minister. | :16:26. | :16:27. | |
But if you were Prime Minister, would you be happy to order people, | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
police or military, to shoot-to-kill on Britain's streets. | :16:31. | :16:32. | |
I'm not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general, I think | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
that is quite dangerous and I think can often be counter-productive. | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
I think you have to have security that prevents people firing off | :16:42. | :16:44. | |
There are various degrees of doing things, as we know, | :16:45. | :16:51. | |
but the idea you end up with a war on the streets is not a good thing. | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
Surely you have to work to try and prevent these things happening, | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
So Jeremy Corbyn wasn't happy with this shoot to kill policy. He said | :16:59. | :17:17. | |
two years ago, he said it was dangerous and counter-productive? | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
Have you shown the clip of what he said last night where he would | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
support the police and any action they need to take. Should people | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
believe what he said two years ago, because he was very clear about it, | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
or should they believe what he said last night? People should judge what | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
we said in the manifesto and this election campaign. Jeremy said last | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
night, we will support the police to take the action they need to take, | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
including what they did the other night, to shoot those despicable | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
terrorists who are killing people on the streets. There is this issue of | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
trust. Seamus Milne was recorded on a train discussing how Jeremy Corbyn | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
should handle questions over Trident renewal and shut down those | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
questions on Trident renewal. And he said, this is a proxy question, so | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
that is why I am always saying I think we will do whatever is | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
necessary and effective to protect our people. The same line Jeremy | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
Corbyn news last night, whatever is necessary and effective. Is that | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
your leader's answer to disguise his true views? He has been clear on his | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
position over nuclear weapons. But the Labour Party's position. I don't | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
want to talk about Trident renewal because we know what his views are | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
on that and he has been consistent, but this line he was advised to use | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
by his head of communication, a catch all phrase to say whatever is | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
necessary in an election campaign to reassure people to disguise his | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
views when two years ago he said he wasn't happy with this shoot to kill | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
policy. Advisers advise all the time. Theresa May will be getting | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
advice as well. But he used that line. Yes, advisers will advise | :19:06. | :19:15. | |
Dominic. Isn't it just because we are in an election he has two save | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
what is necessary. His real views are quite clear, it is | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
counter-productive and dangerous. He says we will maintain our nuclear | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
deterrent. We would use it. Nobody wants to be in a position where you | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
would want to use it, that would be the most horrible circumstance. But | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
we will do nothing to compromise the safety of this country. He won't get | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
us cutting police by 20000 and then going to the Police Chiefs and | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
telling them they are crying wolf when they complain about it. You | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
advocated more cuts in policing. Don't talk over each other. It is | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
hypocrisy for them to criticise when they said there would be even more | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
cuts. The bottom line is, and you made the point very clearly, if you | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
got a U-turn on shoot to kill, two days after a terror attack, three | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
days before we go to the polls, it goes directly to leadership. Theresa | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
May has spent six years doing whatever it takes to protect the | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
country. By cutting police by 20,000. Can you talk about the | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
policy about changing one's mind in the middle of a campaign. Can you | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
take what Jeremy Corbyn said last night at face value given the | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
resources and the powers to the police and what they need to do, | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
given what he said two years ago. We have said it in the manifesto, it is | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
a contract with the people and we want to be judged on our record. The | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
Tory party is cutting 20,000 police and 1000 less armed police officers | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
on the streets. When anybody raise that issue with the Prime Minister, | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
she said they were crying wolf. If it is about judging your record and | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
Theresa May and the government cannot be blamed directly, this did | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
happen while the Tories were in power, these three attacks and the | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
murder of Lee Rigby, they have happened when the Tories have been | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
in power. They not accountable? I don't think we went around saying | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
the 7th of July was the responsibility of Tony Blair. Are | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
they accountable for it? The fact of the matter is, you have to take into | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
account the countless terrorist attacks we foiled, the change in the | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
nature of terrorism, the lone wolf attacks. You have made it more | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
difficult by reducing the numbers? We saw on Saturday night with | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
actions, not words, we know we have finite public resources because of | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
the deficit, so we have had to make difficult decisions. We have made | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
sure the armed police and the armed response of the best they could be. | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
We have a leader who will do whatever it takes. Jeremy Corbyn, U | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
turn shoot to kill, drone strikes on Islamic State, he is not prepared to | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
take the difficult decisions. Control orders, you got rid of them | :22:21. | :22:21. | |
as well. Now, it's worth remembering that, | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
whereas there have been three attacks in the last three months, | :22:25. | :22:26. | |
the majority of terrorist plots have been prevented by the police | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
and the security services. Less than three months ago, | :22:30. | :22:31. | |
on Wednesday 22nd March, there was a car and knife attack | :22:32. | :22:33. | |
carried out by one Two weeks ago, on Monday 22nd May, | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
a suicide bomber blew himself up in the Manchester Arena, | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
killing 22 people. And the London Bridge attack | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
on Saturday has currently claimed However, the Prime Minister said | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
yesterday that the police and the intelligence agencies have | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
disrupted five terrorist plots since And, since 2013, the authorities | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
have stopped a total And, as we mentioned earlier, | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
there are around 3000 people currently engaged in plots and up | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
to 18,000 people who have come to the attention | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
of the security services. And joining me to discuss | :23:12. | :23:19. | |
this is Lord Carlile, the former Independent Reviewer | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
of Terrorism Legislation, and Nazir Afzal, the former Chief | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
Prosecutor for North West England. It is worth remembering the majority | :23:27. | :23:39. | |
of terrorist plots are prevented by the authorities but we know there | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
have been three attacks in less than three months. Do you believe the | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
police and intelligence agencies have the powers they need? I do and | :23:49. | :23:56. | |
Cressida Dick said so yesterday. The argument about 20,000 community | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
police officers has nothing to do with terrorism. It is a different | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
argument. But it is clear to all of those involved good knowledge in | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
counterterrorism policing and related issues, the authorities do | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
have the resources they need and they have been broadly very | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
successful. They have intercepted 18 plots in the last three years but of | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
course, as the Prime Minister said in her speech a few minutes ago, I | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
do need to review the policy because of the changing activities of | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
so-called Islamic states. Are the authorities using the powers they | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
have at their disposal, when you look at the legislation? Tpims, I | :24:36. | :24:43. | |
know you have been critical of and they are a looser version of the | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
control order. They have only been used three times and those control | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
orders who can stop jihadist back and stop -- coming back from Syria | :24:54. | :25:04. | |
haven't been used at all. Tpims have not been used. In 2010, 2011, the | :25:05. | :25:11. | |
Coalition Government decided to get rid of control orders, wrongly. It | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
was a political decision by Nick Clegg. As a result, Tpims were | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
brought into effect and they go weaker than control orders. I was | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
the independent reviewer for the whole period to control orders were | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
involved and I looked at them every day. They may have saved many lives. | :25:31. | :25:41. | |
Really? So we should revert in to the insertion into Tpims of the | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
controls under control orders, because it works. What do you say | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
about that? I respect his view, but I am not sure any evidence is there | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
to prevent these last attacks. Control orders leaked, they abscond | :25:59. | :26:08. | |
rate was terrible but it did improve. If you are at a level where | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
you are not sure what people to, you cannot have them permanently on | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
control orders. The reason may says enough is enough and we need to | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
change our approach. Three days before an election, I will be | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
careful about this. If there is any evidence we need to look at any | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
other powers, I will be willing to do that again. But when I looked at | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
this in some detail there wasn't any evidence control orders could deal | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
with the kind of problems we are now seeing. I am not saying control | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
orders would have helped with these individuals, there is no way of | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
knowing. There was no absconding in the last three years of control | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
orders, they were very well want. The control orders were well within | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
human rights legislation and they worked. There were only covering | :26:57. | :27:04. | |
eight people of about 2000. You are wrong about that. At any one time | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
the largest number of people control was 23 and there was always room for | :27:11. | :27:18. | |
that to be increased. Would you support a return to control orders? | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
I would. I thought it was a huge mistake to get rid of them. Jeremy | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
Corbyn was in the same position as the reason may. I would definitely | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
support them. Now, Theresa May made a statement outside Downing Street | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
yesterday and described for areas where more needs to be done, one of | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
those was the Internet and technology. Do you agree the | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
Internet can provide a safe space for terrorists? We know it does. I | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
think they have taken down 250,000 websites in the last two years. | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
There are tens of thousands replacing them. This work is not | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
something just the British have to do, it is international. Most | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
websites are centred in San Diego, California. So yes, there are | :28:04. | :28:10. | |
individuals who are being radicalised online. As we have | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
appreciated, one of the individuals we may talking about in the next day | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
or two will have been radicalised online. There is work that needs to | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
happen online but that is only part of the issue. Most radicalisation | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
takes place within place within communities, within conversations | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
happening in places that aren't just in the mosque any more. We focus on | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
the mosque where people are being radicalised. If anything, it is | :28:36. | :28:42. | |
happening outside the mosque, in places perhaps we don't necessarily | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
have the ability to look into it and see what is going on. But we have | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
got to deal with that. The Prime Minister is right in a sense by | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
saying more needs to be done, but we don't know what needs to be done. I | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
cannot think of any more legislation. Lord Carlile will know | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
better than me, but we have had 11 terrorism acts since 2000. We have | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
run out of names for them now. I cannot think of any more | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
legislation, the conversation you were having a moment ago, go back to | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
stuff we have had before. My point is, the answer to this lies in the | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
communities. Communities have two hapless, they need to be engaged | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
with and be able to trust the people they are giving the information too. | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
What you may have touched on is, there has been thousands of of | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
information coming through through the security services but do they | :29:30. | :29:36. | |
have the resources to act upon that? I will leave the politicians to deal | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
with that. There have been claims made people called about the people | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
involved in the last two attacks and be perhaps were not followed up. It | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
hasn't been verified in that sense but did look up the cause, let's | :29:50. | :29:59. | |
look at the Prevent programme. It has been criticised by some parts of | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
the Muslim community, the Labour Party has criticised it, what is | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
wrong with it? It works very well when it works. It is poorly | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
communicated, poor engagement in the community. It is Miss understood in | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
some respects. Sometimes deliberately this understood by | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
people who wish to undermine it, for whatever reason. But when it works, | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
it works well. I can think of a thousand examples. This is part of | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
the problem with communication. All you hear of his examples when | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
somebody got it wrong. The reality is, I have a thousand examples where | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
people have been worked with, ensured they don't go off to Syria | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
in 150 cases or in other cases they have been given mental health | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
support or other career support. So it does work, but it hasn't worked | :30:49. | :30:49. | |
routinely across-the-board. Andy Burnham says the Prevent | :30:50. | :31:08. | |
creates alienation and the vision. Why do you want to drop it or | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
replace In places where it works it works | :31:14. | :31:22. | |
well, in other places it is viewed with suspicion. Is that because you | :31:23. | :31:29. | |
have undermined it? The part of the world I represent and hope to carry | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
on representing we have Prevent, I know it well, we work with it and | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
the picture that has been painted of elements of it working well and | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
being very important and we need to continue with it is one I absolutely | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
understand. We are saying, let's review it, let's involve the | :31:46. | :31:52. | |
community in Prevent. Did you think Prevent has been undermined? I agree | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
with every word Nazir said, it has been deliberately undermined by some | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
people. I believe, on the evidence I have seen, which is quite a lot, | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
that where Prevent works well, it works very, very well, and to say we | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
should get rid of it and start again is just ludicrous. What we need to | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
do is take the best practice of Prevent and roll it out across the | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
country with greater funding. This Government has promised that | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
funding. I hope that in the future... But it has been cut in | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
recent times. No, the Prevent funding has not been cut, it has | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
been increased consistently. There have been problems with changing | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
strategies towards Prevent, particularly around 2010-11, but | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
Prevent has been doing well, and other countries' capital have asked | :32:42. | :32:49. | |
how we do it. A lot of community groups were getting money to work | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
with young people... But Labour's line was that it has been cut? It is | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
legitimate to remove funding from one programme and put it into | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
another, that has happened all over the country. In the constituency I | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
represent, groups were complaining that the work they had been doing | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
with younger men had to be scaled back because the money was not there | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
any more. When I mention the community, of course, there is no | :33:16. | :33:17. | |
such thing as one homogenous Muslim community. Muslim communities, in | :33:18. | :33:26. | |
London they come from 52 countries, in the north they come from two or | :33:27. | :33:34. | |
three. The issue I have is that everybody, local Government as well, | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
is very lazy, it goes to the same community leaders, it does not go | :33:38. | :33:45. | |
out to the people doing phenomenal work in their communities and | :33:46. | :33:47. | |
support them in what they are doing. I think we need to change our | :33:48. | :33:49. | |
approach. Thank you both very much. Now let's find out | :33:50. | :33:51. | |
what else is happening There was a moment yesterday, | :33:52. | :34:02. | |
possibly the only moment in the whole election campaign, where all | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
the parties agreed on one thing, something that Theresa May set out | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
here. She said violence can never be allowed to disrupt the general | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
cryptic process and the general election will go ahead on Thursday. | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
All main parties except Ukip yesterday agreed to suspend national | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
campaigning but then we saw Theresa May come out and make a speech about | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
what she saw as some of the issues with her counterterrorism strategy, | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
critics say it was highly critical, and Jeremy Corbyn later on had a | :34:29. | :34:38. | |
speech in which he made some of his own criticisms, and again critics of | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
his said it was highly critical. Ukip did take part in a special | :34:42. | :34:42. | |
debate in the evening. Ukip's Paul Nuttall faced Jo | :34:43. | :34:44. | |
and a studio audience at a special debate in Bristol, | :34:45. | :34:46. | |
where, not surprisingly, I mentioned waterboarding | :34:47. | :34:48. | |
in the case if there was going to be an imminent terrorist attack, | :34:49. | :34:56. | |
and if we had to find out information quickly, | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
I wouldn't take anything off the table to ensure | :35:00. | :35:00. | |
that British women, men The Green co-leader Jonathan Bartley | :35:01. | :35:02. | |
was grilled at the same event, and was far from willing to commit | :35:03. | :35:11. | |
to the use of drone strikes abroad. It's going to be a matter | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
of international law, You have to take every case | :35:15. | :35:16. | |
on a case-by-case basis. This morning, though, | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
the campaign was well The giveaway - a party | :35:21. | :35:21. | |
leader in a pinny. The Lib Dems have been clear | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
they're not keen on Brexit. Now it appears Tim Farron is not | :35:26. | :35:36. | |
keen on breakfast either. Nicola Sturgeon has been | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
taking the really high They're calling it the Nicolopter, | :35:42. | :35:43. | |
apparently, as the SNP leader gets around 30 constituencies | :35:44. | :35:50. | |
across Scotland before polling day. And then she made this pretty | :35:51. | :35:52. | |
incredible pitch to voters. Ellie Price reporting at the | :35:53. | :36:00. | |
beginning of that film. The Democratic Unionist Party leader | :36:01. | :36:09. | |
Arlene Foster says the Northern Ireland parties were close | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
to an agreement on Brexit before their talks were interrupted | :36:13. | :36:14. | |
by Theresa May's announcement The traditional contest | :36:15. | :36:16. | |
in Northern Ireland between unionists and nationalists | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
is being played out against a backdrop of uncertainty | :36:21. | :36:22. | |
over what Brexit will mean for the border with the Irish | :36:23. | :36:24. | |
Republic, which will be the UK's In a moment we'll speak | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
to Arlene Foster, but first our Northern Ireland political editor | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
Mark Devenport reports from Mrs Foster's home constituency | :36:35. | :36:36. | |
of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, where her DUP is backing a candidate | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
from the Ulster Unionist Party in an attempt to hold the highly | :36:44. | :36:45. | |
marginal seat against a strong In Fermanagh, it's not just politics | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
which is balanced on a knife edge. The county's award-winning black | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
bacon is exported far afield. But this Enniskillen butcher fears | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
that Brexit might prove a rash move. Right across Europe, | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
we can export our bacon. Now, the big concern for us | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
is what is going to happen Everyone talks about the hard Brexit | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
and the soft Brexit, but reality is it is just one word, | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
"Brexit," and we are, from the business community, | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
we feel that we're in a wee bit This isn't no-man's land, | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
it's the Sheridans' land. Son David and father Robert farm | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
on either side of the border, crisscrossing the frontier at least | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
two or three times a day. David voted for Brexit because | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
of his annoyance with EU red tape. Now both generations are concerned | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
about what the future might hold. We're on the border as you know | :37:43. | :37:50. | |
here, and it's maybe going across to our farm, | :37:51. | :37:52. | |
back and forward, maybe we'd be Nobody seems to know | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
at the minute, there's nothing set in stone, | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
we don't know. The outgoing Ulster Unionist MP | :37:59. | :38:00. | |
Tom Elliott backed leaving the EU. If he holds his seat, | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
he promises to fight for a deal which will work for people living | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
along the border. Like all her Sinn Fein colleagues, | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
Michelle Gildernew will refuse to take her seat at Westminster | :38:13. | :38:14. | |
if she wins, but she says she will lobby for Northern Ireland | :38:15. | :38:22. | |
to retain special European status. I think Tom won the seat last | :38:23. | :38:24. | |
time against the odds, and I think it's going to be even | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
tougher for him this time. I think Sinn Fein were quite taken | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
aback the last time at losing, there were some problems internally, | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
some problems with their organisation of getting the vote | :38:34. | :38:35. | |
out, and they were stung by that, so they will really | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
go for it this time. Unlike Sinn Fein, the moderate | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
nationalist SDLP candidate Mary Garrity promises both to fight | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
Brexit and take a seat But if past elections | :38:50. | :38:51. | |
here are anything to go by, she's likely to be a long way behind | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
the front runners. It seems very likely that | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
Sinn Fein will take the seat. They're on a roll, the SDLP | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
candidate is not well known, and there's a feeling that, | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
in the wider Catholic nationalist republican community, | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
that unionists, having been pushed out of the majority, | :39:15. | :39:16. | |
lost the majority in the last election here for the Assembly, | :39:17. | :39:18. | |
should not be allowed pretend to re-establish it in a first | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
past the post election. Besides being the most westerly | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
constituency in this election, Fermanagh South Tyrone has to be one | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
of the most picturesque. These are the stunning | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
Marble Arch Caves, part of a limestone system | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
which stretches under the border. Whatever happens to the border up | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
on the surface, here the stalactites will continue to hang down | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
and the stalagmites But these caves are the centrepiece | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
of a cross-border geopark which has benefited from hundreds of thousands | :39:53. | :40:00. | |
of pounds of European funding, so even down here the implications | :40:01. | :40:02. | |
of Brexit run deep. And we're joined now from Belfast | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
by DUP leader Arlene Foster. Welcome to the Daily Politics. A | :40:08. | :40:22. | |
majority of people in Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU, | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
yours was the only party to officially back Brexit. Why should | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
anybody worried about Brexit vote for the DUP? The question was asked | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
as a national question and that being the case we have to respect | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
the National opinion, and that was that we are to leave the European | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
Union. We are not fighting old battles. What we want to do now is | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
get on and get the best deal for Northern Ireland in the EU | :40:48. | :40:49. | |
negotiations and that is why it is very important that we have a strong | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
team of DUP MPs return to Westminster on Thursday so they can | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
speak up for Northern Ireland and stand strong for Northern Ireland | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
will stop what might convince people to vote for the DUP is if you had | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
assurances from the UK Government about how the customs arrangement | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
will work on the Irish border. Those negotiations have just begun. The | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
Irish Government and our own Government have said they don't want | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
a hard border. That is not an assurance, is it? What we have do do | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
now is work together to make sure that is a reality and use the | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
technology at our disposal to make it happen in a way that respects the | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
Common travel area before we entered the European Union. When I spoke to | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
Sinn Fein a few days ago, they said they couldn't see any scenario in | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
which there would be a totally frictionless border, whatever | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
happened in the Brexit negotiations, and that would seriously hamper | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
business interests and that Common travel area that you talked about. | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
Of course Sinn Fein are the only people talking about a hard border | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
and they are doing that for a very political reason, they said they | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
want no Brexit, no border, no Tory cuts. They don't have a positive | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
vision at all for Northern Ireland. But you cannot give the assurances | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
that what they are saying is wrong. What I am saying is they are the | :42:17. | :42:27. | |
only people saying, talking about a hard border but in actual fact | :42:28. | :42:29. | |
everyone else is working very hard to make sure that doesn't happen. | :42:30. | :42:31. | |
They are becoming very much, going back to their roots and becoming a | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
party of protest, standing outside talking about what they don't want | :42:35. | :42:36. | |
to see instead of getting on and making sure that we developed a | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
Northern Ireland outside of the European Union that works for | :42:41. | :42:43. | |
everybody. Let's talk about relations with Sinn Fein, the | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
Stormont executive relies on good relations between first and Deputy | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
First Minister, you compared Sinn Fein to a crocodile which would keep | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
coming back for more if you feed it. Would you put the relationship with | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
Michele O'Neil back after the election campaign saying things like | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
that? That was the last campaign by Sinn Fein Haupt -- pulled out of the | :43:05. | :43:11. | |
assembly and the executive. Why did they do that? Tell us about the | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
heating scandal but you were criticised for? If you let me | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
finish, they won't take their seats at Westminster either so they are | :43:19. | :43:21. | |
becoming a party of protest as opposed to a party of Government | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
that wants to get on and advocate for the people they represent and | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
their mandate, so I think it is regrettable that that is the case. I | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
would encourage them to come back to the table after the elections and | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
should be realistic about setting back of the devolved institutions | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
because I think everyone in Northern Ireland wants to see devolution | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
working for everybody in Northern Ireland, not just one community but | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
for everybody. Do you think you could build relations with Michelle | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
O'Neill? I respect Michelle O'Neill and I would hope she would respect | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
my mandate as leader of the largest party in Northern Ireland but we | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
will have to see if that is the case after the elections on Thursday, | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
whether she respects my mandate, because after the elections we go | :44:05. | :44:06. | |
back into negotiations to try to get | :44:07. | :44:20. | |
devolution back as quickly as possible. What are your red lines | :44:21. | :44:22. | |
when it comes to power-sharing? And Irish language act, gay marriage, | :44:23. | :44:24. | |
investigations into killings by state forces during the troubles? | :44:25. | :44:26. | |
Those are all red lines from Sinn Fein, we don't have any red lines, | :44:27. | :44:28. | |
we want to see devolution back up as quickly as we can. If we could start | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
today, I would do so. Can I ask, why speaking to the Belfast Telegraph | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
did a former minister said that same-sex marriage is a red line for | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
his party that would prevent a Government being formed? I said | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
those are red lines were Sinn Fein, they are saying they won't come back | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
into Government until they get all of these things sorted out. What I'm | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
saying is, let's get devolution back up and running and let's sort out | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
these issues as elected representatives working for | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
everybody, because people are hugely frustrated, they want to see us back | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
in Government dealing with the reform of our health service, which | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
desperately needs it, as we know from the waiting lists, they want to | :45:08. | :45:14. | |
see us dealing with education and infrastructure and jobs, so it is | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
wrong that Sinn Fein are holding us all to ransom and saying, unless all | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
of these matters are dealt with, we won't go back into devolution. We | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
want devolution back up and running now and it would be good if she | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
would come back in with her party and start governing, that is of | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
course what she was elected to do. Arlene Foster, thank you. it. | :45:34. | :45:35. | |
Now it's time for the latest in our series of interviews | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
with the smaller parties standing in the general election on Thursday. | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
The National Health Action party was founded in 2012 by two | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
consultants who opposed the Health and Social Care Act, which enacted | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
The party would start by repealing the 2012 Health and Social Care Act | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
which would reverse the reforms, including the removal | :45:53. | :45:54. | |
of the requirement to tender out contracts to the private sector. | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
They would also ensure that NHS funding increases in real | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
And call for the abolition of prescription charges in England | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
as is existing policy in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
The party would introduce free social care and increase funding | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
to meet the needs of vulnerable elderly and disabled people. | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
And on Brexit the NHA want to safeguard the UK's | :46:22. | :46:23. | |
collaboration with the EU on health issues and medical research. | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
And now we are joined by the National Health Action | :46:28. | :46:29. | |
Thank you for coming onto the programme. Why do we need your | :46:30. | :46:45. | |
party? Our party started five years ago with the intention of fighting | :46:46. | :46:54. | |
to defend the NHS against cuts, underfunding and private Eye | :46:55. | :46:56. | |
Shenzhen. I think we need it now than ever before. I think we have | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
influenced Labour Party policy at the moment which has moved closer to | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
our position. But it is a single issue party? No, we fight on all the | :47:08. | :47:14. | |
social determinants of health, and that includes housing, education, | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
the environment, inequality, poverty and all those issues. You say you | :47:19. | :47:25. | |
have influence the Labour Party, which part of the manifesto have | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
been written with you in mind? We're part of a broader movement, moved it | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
towards the manifesto, it talks about repealing the health and | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
social care act. Which, we as a campaigner, I have been a campaigner | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
on the NHS for many years, including under the Labour government, it has | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
been reluctant to address the issue of privatisation of the NHS. I | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
welcome that, but I feel we need people like our party and other | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
campaigners to help. You thank Louise for your manifesto, it was | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
under Labour that opting out to the private sector started? I am pleased | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
to the endorsement. Would you have done it without them? Yes, and the | :48:09. | :48:15. | |
party for the NHS is the Labour Party because we will put in 37 | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
billion to get rid of the waiting lists, get rid of the health and | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
social care act tampered capital investment into the NHS. Not by | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
forcing hospitals to sell off assets, we will give hospitals the | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
money to rebuild them and invest in IT as well. Would you rather see a | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
Labour Party elected than a Conservative Party? I would prefer | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
the Labour Party, as long as they stayed true to their promises. In | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
1997 Tony Blair promised to end the privatisation of the NHS and get rid | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
of PFI, not to go forward with PFI and they did the complete opposite. | :48:53. | :48:59. | |
We can't just trust people because of their manifesto. What you say | :49:00. | :49:01. | |
about the funding, your proposed funding isn't even going to meet the | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
projected rate of growth, if it kept up with GDP rates. He said the | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
Labour Party will not keep pace with a growing elderly population and | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
perhaps rising inflation at the moment. How would you fund an | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
increase in NHS funding eye 4% in real terms every year? This is not a | :49:24. | :49:31. | |
number we have picked out of the air. The OBR and other policies say | :49:32. | :49:38. | |
to maintain the quality of services and meet growing the mind, three to | :49:39. | :49:45. | |
4% is not keeping in line with the average running. People will want to | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
know how to fund it? I will not be part of the government and not | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
making detailed budget plans, but we will be pushing government, whoever | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
is in government to meet the funding need. It can be done through | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
taxation, in different ways, progressive taxation but also | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
looking at tax avoidance, corporate tax and those things. It can be done | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
by reducing the bureaucracy in the NHS and investing in health and | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
education. Do you accept that actually, in order to meet the needs | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
of a growing elderly population and rising costs, you need to look at | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
funding of 4% in the round every year in real terms in the NHS? I had | :50:29. | :50:37. | |
a look at the National health party manifesto, most G-7 countries have | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
an insurance contribution -based approach. Like Germany for instance? | :50:41. | :50:49. | |
Yes, and we are unique. The answer on funding is very clear, you have | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
got to have a strong economy. The problem is, this wish list of issues | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
you want to spend money on... If you have a strong economy, why can't you | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
spend more if you have different priorities? It is the only way to | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
get the revenue and it is revenue that pays for public services, | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
having a wish list is for the birds, unless you have a strong economy and | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
only the Conservatives can do that. Is there no role for the private | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
sector within the NHS? They could be a small role where there are gaps in | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
provision, temporarily. You shouldn't structure the NHS around | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
the market-based system. It is wasteful, it fragments and it is | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
chaotic and it short-changes patients because it diverts money | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
from front-line care. We would have an NHS which is substantially a | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
public service and we want to bring legislation to reinstated as a | :51:47. | :51:48. | |
public servers, more than just repealing the health and social care | :51:49. | :51:51. | |
act, reversing all of the privatisation. Thank you. | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
As we enter the final days of the general election campaign, | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
the pollsters have been very busy and we were greeted by a flurry | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
An Opinium for the Observer found support for the Conservatives had | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
dipped to 43% with Labour on 37%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip on 5% | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
and a Survation poll for the Sunday Times predicts | :52:12. | :52:13. | |
support for the Conservatives will fall further to 40% with Labour | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
I'm taking it to London's Southbank Centre to ask people's views | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
And here's the question we're asking the great | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
British public today, opinion polls - | :52:26. | :52:27. | |
On the day, they never seem to come out as planned previously, | :52:28. | :52:39. | |
so I think there's an element of fiction to it. | :52:40. | :52:41. | |
OK, put it back in, very honest, very honest. | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
Because what people say about what they're going | :52:49. | :52:51. | |
to do isn't necessarily what they are going to do. | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
Here's someone who juggles data for a living. | :52:55. | :52:56. | |
What do you think about this as an opinion gathering method? | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
Well, as my idol Peter Snow would say, it's just a bit of fun. | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
When you are looking to do an accurate, scientific poll, | :53:06. | :53:07. | |
you hope to accurately represent the population you are trying | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
to survey in the sample that takes part in that survey. | :53:14. | :53:15. | |
So, for instance you need the right number of old people, | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
the right number of young people, the right number of | :53:20. | :53:21. | |
After the last election, the professionals realised | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
they didn't have the right number of Tory supporters and had spoken | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
I think some people don't always say what they think. | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
That's the problem, particularly Tory voters. | :53:37. | :53:38. | |
And why are different polling companies coming up | :53:39. | :54:01. | |
Usually you could come up with four or five reasons why pollsters | :54:02. | :54:07. | |
are coming up with different numbers, but on this occasion | :54:08. | :54:09. | |
there is something quite straightforward going on. | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
And it's whether or not you believe young people and people who didn't | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
turn out in the last general election in 2015, who now | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
say they are going to, whether they actually do. | :54:21. | :54:22. | |
If you believe them, then it's a closer race. | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
Those pollsters who are saying it is a three, four point lead | :54:28. | :54:30. | |
If, like me and you tend to be suspicious of people who say | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
they will change behaviours which are fairly embedded | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
in historical precedent, then you should believe the likes | :54:42. | :54:43. | |
of me and I'm saying currently it's a 12 point | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
We are doing a survey about opinion polls... | :54:47. | :54:49. | |
In other words, are we all asking too many youngsters and people | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
Do you pick up the newspaper every day and go, "I wonder | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
No, I'm pretty sure what the polls are going to say. | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
Theresa May is still ahead but Labour is squeezing in there. | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
YouGov has suggested that would result in a hung parliament. | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
Based on the current polling, we produced a broad range | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
At the time, it was anything from 274 to 345 seats | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
You need 326 for a majority, at that time it was possible that | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
a hung parliament could occur, if there was an election that day. | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
The headline was, "YouGov Predicts A Hung Parliament." | :55:31. | :55:33. | |
What you often see during an election campaign | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
is that the interpretation polls, whether it's by broadcasters | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
or the media, or social media, is somewhat different | :55:44. | :55:45. | |
from the interpretation of the polls we put out. | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
After three sweltering hours of doing this... | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
Who's got some opinions they'd like to share with me? | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
Maybe the politicians have a point, the polls are fascinating snapshots, | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
but it's the one on June the 8th that's most accurate. | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
There we go, a big majority of people here on the Southbank | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
think the opinion polls are more fiction than science. | :56:10. | :56:11. | |
And here ends possibly the dodgiest opinion poll | :56:12. | :56:13. | |
That has never stopped the Daily Politics and both of you are banned | :56:14. | :56:34. | |
in the next discussion by saying the only one counts is Thursday. There | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
is a confused picture and the polls seem to have a Conservative lead of | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
1% of the 12%, but there is a general trend in support going to | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
Labour? The polls have definitely narrowed. We would argue there could | :56:49. | :56:55. | |
be Jeremy Corbyn in Number Ten. But as a candidate, the polling thing is | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
a distraction. It is great for the media, different story huge day. Do | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
you ever look at the polls? I keep an eye on them, but it is a | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
distraction on getting the message across. We are getting the message | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
across on leadership. All this tittle tattle about polls, | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
particularly when they are so far ranging and so far apart, is a | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
distraction. It is good for the media, I am not so sure it is good | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
for the country and for a politician trying to get elected. Do you ignore | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
them all together or are you taking more interest now as they seem to be | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
moving in your direction with a focus on younger people voting | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
Labour? I have ignored them since the last general election. I | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
thought, in 2015, I thought we were heading towards a hung parliament | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
and then the exit poll came out at ten o'clock. What I would say is, | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
seven or eight weeks ago, it felt like the Conservatives were very far | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
ahead. I am still getting on the doorstep, people raising the | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
dementia tax, the Tories taking away free school meals. I think people | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
have looked that Theresa May, she is not what she thought, she doesn't | :58:08. | :58:17. | |
represent what they thought she was. She has been exposed under the | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
scrutiny, the same as Jeremy Corbyn. Your media love to do this thing | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
based on the frostiness of the polls. We have seen on economy and | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
Brexit. I feel a party message coming on. She has shown she has got | :58:32. | :58:38. | |
the leadership and has got the strength of character frankly, to | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
lead this country on the key issue that counts, which will be the | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
Brexit negotiation. She cut the NHS, she got skills and she will carry on | :58:47. | :58:47. | |
cutting the police. The One o'clock News is starting | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
tomorrow with all the big political stories of the day, | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
do join me then. | :58:58. | :59:00. |