05/06/2017 Daily Politics


05/06/2017

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 05/06/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics and Westminster,

:00:38.:00:41.

where campaigning ahead of the general election goes

:00:42.:00:43.

on in the wake of Saturday's terror attack in London.

:00:44.:00:46.

Police are said to know the identity of the three attackers who killed

:00:47.:00:49.

seven people and injured 48 near London Bridge,

:00:50.:00:52.

the third attack of its kind in the UK in just 10 weeks.

:00:53.:01:03.

As the investigation continues, Prime Minister Theresa May

:01:04.:01:05.

says "enough is enough", promising to end the UK's

:01:06.:01:07.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says she ignored warnings about the risks

:01:08.:01:11.

We'll be talking about the political impact of the attack.

:01:12.:01:15.

The election is now just days away, and we've been in Northern Ireland

:01:16.:01:18.

looking at the possible impact of Brexit at the ballot box.

:01:19.:01:23.

And should you believe what you read in the opinion polls?

:01:24.:01:26.

We'll try and explain why the pollsters can't agree on much

:01:27.:01:29.

It isn't an exact science, is it, because what people say

:01:30.:01:34.

about what they're going to do isn't necessarily what

:01:35.:01:36.

All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

:01:37.:01:46.

of the programme today, it's the former Conservative Justice

:01:47.:01:48.

Minister Dominic Raab, and the Shadow Health Secretary

:01:49.:01:59.

So let's begin by talking about Saturday's attack

:02:00.:02:08.

Police investigating the latest terrorist incident to affect the UK

:02:09.:02:12.

say they know the identity of the three attackers who murdered

:02:13.:02:15.

seven and injured 48, and say they will release the names

:02:16.:02:17.

They were shot and killed by police after driving into pedestrians

:02:18.:02:21.

on the bridge in Central London and stabbing people in nearby

:02:22.:02:24.

Borough Market, and the names of some of the victims have also

:02:25.:02:27.

Let's get the latest on this ongoing investigation from our home

:02:28.:02:30.

affairs correspondent, Daniel Sandford.

:02:31.:02:34.

Tell us the latest developments. As you say, police are almost

:02:35.:02:41.

certain of the identities of the men who drove across the bridge and

:02:42.:02:46.

started stabbing people in the pubs and restaurants nearby in Borough

:02:47.:02:50.

Market. We in the media are also aware of the identity of at least

:02:51.:02:54.

one of those but we are being asked by the police not to broadcast them

:02:55.:02:57.

for operational reasons at the moment. I think we may get the names

:02:58.:03:01.

officially announced as early as this afternoon but that does depend

:03:02.:03:05.

on what happens in terms of arrests and raids over the next few hours.

:03:06.:03:14.

One of the men is definitely a Pakistani man living in the Barking

:03:15.:03:17.

area and another man we are hearing from Irish sources likely had an

:03:18.:03:19.

Irish identity card and what of Moroccan origin but we will hear

:03:20.:03:24.

more about that in the afternoon. 11 people are currently in custody, 12

:03:25.:03:29.

having been arrested, one of the men was released soon afterwards. Most

:03:30.:03:34.

of those people were arrested at one address in Barking, another one

:03:35.:03:40.

close by. We had two fresh raids overnight, one in the borough of

:03:41.:03:46.

Barking and one in the borough of Newham, we had camera crews at both

:03:47.:03:48.

of those, lots of police activity at those but still this is early days,

:03:49.:03:52.

the police pretty much know who did it, the question is who helped them.

:03:53.:03:57.

We now know five plots have been disrupted between the Manchester

:03:58.:04:00.

attack two weeks ago and that on Saturday night. As the volume always

:04:01.:04:05.

been that high? No, I don't think it has. It has

:04:06.:04:10.

been exceptionally high since 2014, we are talking about 18 plots I

:04:11.:04:15.

think since 2014 have been disrupted but there seems to have been an

:04:16.:04:19.

acceleration since the Westminster attack on March the 22nd this year.

:04:20.:04:24.

I think a failing in police circles and security service circles is

:04:25.:04:28.

there is a degree of copycat or inspiration as a result of that,

:04:29.:04:39.

they noticed how much attention and shock was caused by bad attack on

:04:40.:04:42.

March the 22nd and that have encouraged people to accelerate

:04:43.:04:44.

their own plans, so you are essentially have since March the

:04:45.:04:46.

22nd two successful attacks on the UK and five what the police believe

:04:47.:04:51.

were unsuccessful attacks on the UK, and I think that is the highest

:04:52.:04:55.

level we have really ever seen, it wasn't the rate at which we saw it

:04:56.:04:59.

in the IRA era and even in the Al-Qaeda area we were not getting

:05:00.:05:03.

them coming into the UK at that kind of rate.

:05:04.:05:04.

Daniel, thank you. This attack followed hard

:05:05.:05:05.

on the heels of the bombing at a pop concert in Manchester less

:05:06.:05:08.

than two weeks ago. Last night, the singer Ariana Grande

:05:09.:05:10.

returned to the city for a benefit concert to remember the victims

:05:11.:05:13.

of that suicide bomb. # But don't look back

:05:14.:05:16.

in anger, I heard you say. I love you guys so much,

:05:17.:05:29.

and I think that the kind of love and unity that you're displaying

:05:30.:05:32.

is the medicine that the world So I want to thank you

:05:33.:05:35.

for being just that. And I want to thank you for coming

:05:36.:05:41.

tonight, I love you so much. Ariana Grande there at the concert.

:05:42.:05:54.

You're bored after yet another terror attack, this time on the

:05:55.:05:59.

streets of London? -- your thoughts. Horrific attack, good to see

:06:00.:06:03.

Manchester getting back on its feet and responding with courage and

:06:04.:06:07.

positivity. In terms of London, I know that area quite well, I worked

:06:08.:06:12.

there my early career as a lawyer, I used to socialise there, it is

:06:13.:06:18.

horrific. Our thoughts are with the victims and families as well, and a

:06:19.:06:22.

huge credit to the public and security services, particularly the

:06:23.:06:26.

police, eight minutes from the first call to arriving and decisively

:06:27.:06:30.

dealing with, killings of three terrorists involved. We need to hold

:06:31.:06:34.

our nerve, there will be lots of talk about what we should do next, I

:06:35.:06:38.

know we will come onto that but I think as politicians as well we need

:06:39.:06:43.

to get on with our democracy and protect our democracy, and go to the

:06:44.:06:48.

polls on Thursday. We don't let the fanatics get the victory of

:06:49.:06:51.

disrupting our democracy, that would be the gift they want. There has

:06:52.:06:55.

been a great show of resilience, as you said, and if there was an

:06:56.:06:59.

attempt to disrupt our way of life, people going out and enjoying

:07:00.:07:02.

themselves at a concert or on the streets of London, that tribute

:07:03.:07:06.

concert last night to the victims showed that people are not afraid?

:07:07.:07:12.

No, it is a strong message from a younger crowd, young audience, young

:07:13.:07:16.

artist, but people right across the generations will be proud that

:07:17.:07:19.

Britain is getting back up off its knees and continuing to do the

:07:20.:07:22.

things not just that we need to do but want to do and as a politician I

:07:23.:07:29.

am keen, I have a hustings this evening, we get on and we show that

:07:30.:07:30.

we will not be cowed. Thank you. So, what does Saturday's

:07:31.:07:38.

attack mean for Thursday's general election?

:07:39.:07:40.

Well, there are questions for both main parties to answer

:07:41.:07:42.

on their record in dealing with terrorism and how they propose

:07:43.:07:45.

As Home Secretary, a post she held for seven years,

:07:46.:07:49.

Theresa May presided over a 22% cut to the police budget

:07:50.:07:52.

There are now 19,000 fewer police compared to 2010,

:07:53.:08:02.

with the Labour Party accusing the Conservatives of trying to

:08:03.:08:04.

The Government points out that, since 2015, the policing

:08:05.:08:08.

And that funding for counterterrorism has been increasing

:08:09.:08:11.

However, with the police monitoring around 3000 subjects of interest,

:08:12.:08:17.

and three terror incidents in the last three months,

:08:18.:08:21.

Theresa May has been criticised for replacing control orders,

:08:22.:08:24.

which placed terror suspects under intense supervision,

:08:25.:08:29.

with what have been described as "looser" rules.

:08:30.:08:32.

However, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has also come in for criticism

:08:33.:08:36.

after he admitted he'd spent his career opposing key pieces

:08:37.:08:40.

of anti-terror legislation, leaving the Conservatives to claim

:08:41.:08:41.

he can't be trusted with the nation's security.

:08:42.:08:47.

In 2011, Mr Corbyn joined Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell and

:08:48.:08:50.

Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott in voting against putting al-Qaeda

:08:51.:08:53.

on a Government list of proscribed terrorist organisations.

:08:54.:08:56.

Two years ago, the Labour leader said he wasn't happy over the police

:08:57.:09:00.

shoot-to-kill policy, although last night he said

:09:01.:09:03.

he would take whatever action was "necessary and effective"

:09:04.:09:05.

Mr Corbyn has also faced uncomfortable questions

:09:06.:09:16.

about his associations with the IRA and members of Hamas,

:09:17.:09:19.

which the UK Government considers a terrorist organisation.

:09:20.:09:21.

Both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have been

:09:22.:09:25.

criticising each other over this issue - let's have a look

:09:26.:09:27.

at the Labour leader speaking last night,

:09:28.:09:29.

and the Prime Minister speaking at an event this morning.

:09:30.:09:31.

You cannot protect the public on the cheap.

:09:32.:09:33.

The police and security services must get the resources they need,

:09:34.:09:36.

Theresa May was warned by the Police Federation,

:09:37.:09:43.

Safeguarding the security of our country takes leadership.

:09:44.:09:51.

That's why since 2010, in the face of a growing threat,

:09:52.:09:54.

we protected the budget for counterterrorism policing

:09:55.:09:57.

and increased the resources available to the security

:09:58.:10:00.

It's why, since 2015, when Jeremy Corbyn's front bench

:10:01.:10:07.

was arguing for the police to be cut by a further 10%, we've

:10:08.:10:10.

not cut the police, but protected their budget.

:10:11.:10:15.

Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. I can welcome Jonathan Ashworth now to the

:10:16.:10:21.

Daily Politics but I will start with Dominic Raab. Labour has accused the

:10:22.:10:24.

Conservatives of giving security on the cheap and there is evidence for

:10:25.:10:29.

that? I'm afraid if you look at, just take the evidence from this

:10:30.:10:32.

terrible attack at London Bridge, within eight minutes the armed

:10:33.:10:36.

police were there responding decisively and taking out of the

:10:37.:10:40.

three terrorists. Talking about having other ordinary bobbies on the

:10:41.:10:43.

beat is not going to deal with an attack like that, it would be deeply

:10:44.:10:48.

irresponsible, we have already seen some of the ordinary officers that

:10:49.:10:52.

were involved suffering injuries. You need to be willing to have the

:10:53.:10:56.

armed police, we are putting 1500 more armed officers at the service

:10:57.:11:00.

of the country, you need to have them trained and equipped and

:11:01.:11:03.

ultimately willing to take out the terrorists, and I think really what

:11:04.:11:07.

we have seen from Jeremy Corbyn is an attempt to deflect on the

:11:08.:11:10.

questions you have rightly put out in your clip that he needs to

:11:11.:11:19.

answer. Theresa May has been Home Secretary for six years,

:11:20.:11:20.

assiduously, robustly, but calmly, doing whatever it takes to protect

:11:21.:11:23.

the country from terrorism. Except police numbers have gone down, she

:11:24.:11:27.

has been Home Secretary for seven years previous to being Prime

:11:28.:11:31.

Minister and police budgets were cut by a fifth. Crime is down a third.

:11:32.:11:35.

But if we are looking at the numbers, if there is any claim to

:11:36.:11:40.

the evidence from -- any evidence to the claim from Labour that policing

:11:41.:11:44.

is being done on the cheap, 19,000 fewer officers on the streets, 1000

:11:45.:11:48.

fewer armed officers ready for deployment, with the benefit of

:11:49.:11:52.

hindsight, do you think the public deserve an apology from the

:11:53.:11:55.

Government for cutting numbers? No, this is wrong... The figures are not

:11:56.:12:02.

wrong. Crime has been cut by a third. What you cannot pretend is

:12:03.:12:06.

you are going to send an ordinary bobby on the beat in to deal with

:12:07.:12:10.

the kind of horrific attack we saw on the weekend. Just an illustration

:12:11.:12:15.

of this... These are police officers I'm talking about, these are police

:12:16.:12:19.

numbers. To deal with a terrorist attack, which is the issue of the

:12:20.:12:23.

day, you need to have them armed and authorised to go in, and even the

:12:24.:12:26.

armed officers dealing with people with explosives around their bodies

:12:27.:12:36.

were incredibly brave. You couldn't expect to have ordinarily bobbies

:12:37.:12:38.

going to deal with that. What Jeremy Corbyn is dealing with that is

:12:39.:12:41.

deeply irresponsible. Let's be clear on the number of armed police, have

:12:42.:12:44.

they fallen, the numbers, since 2010? My understanding is since 2015

:12:45.:12:49.

our commitment has been to putting 1500... Since 2010 they have fallen,

:12:50.:12:54.

haven't they, armed officers? I am not sure of the headline numbers.

:12:55.:12:59.

The Met Commissioner Cressida Dick said the armed police are properly

:13:00.:13:02.

resourced. But they also have to be is properly armed and trained and

:13:03.:13:06.

authorised to take the decisive action that they did on Saturday.

:13:07.:13:10.

Otherwise more people would be suffering. Jonathan Ashworth, we

:13:11.:13:13.

talked about the response time, armed police were there in eight

:13:14.:13:16.

minutes otherwise I'm sure the carnage would have been much worse.

:13:17.:13:20.

In a way, they have got the resources and the numbers that they

:13:21.:13:24.

need, they responded very effectively, didn't they?

:13:25.:13:36.

Can I just say, could I have not had the chance, because I was late, I

:13:37.:13:40.

have huge praise for the extraordinarily brave response from

:13:41.:13:42.

the police and emergency services on Saturday evening, they really make

:13:43.:13:44.

you proud to be British. On the broader point, we have seen cuts

:13:45.:13:47.

while Theresa May was Home Secretary of 20,000 police officers. On your

:13:48.:13:50.

point of armed police, cut by 1000 by Theresa May since 2010. A lot of

:13:51.:13:54.

the security agencies have seen their budget cuts while Theresa May

:13:55.:13:57.

was Home Secretary. They have been cut since 2010 while Theresa May was

:13:58.:14:04.

Home Secretary. Let me finish. The Conservative Party have wanted to

:14:05.:14:07.

position this election as a referendum on Theresa May so it is

:14:08.:14:11.

only fair that we scrutinise her record as Home Secretary, and hers

:14:12.:14:15.

is one where 20,000 police officers were cut, 1000 armed police cut,

:14:16.:14:20.

security agencies cut and I'm not convinced that her whole line about,

:14:21.:14:24.

she is going to stand up and make our streets safer, I don't think it

:14:25.:14:30.

is true. I will let you talk in a second because you and your

:14:31.:14:32.

colleagues have always said, Judge us on our record, and we are judging

:14:33.:14:36.

you on this specific record and also the fact that Theresa May said

:14:37.:14:40.

yesterday, enough is enough, which is a strange phrase because you

:14:41.:14:43.

might have asked what is bothering her now that did not bother her

:14:44.:14:47.

before. On police numbers, Jeremy Corbyn has gone so far as to say she

:14:48.:14:51.

should resign over the cuts in police numbers. What do you say to

:14:52.:14:54.

that? Labour's position in 2015 was that

:14:55.:15:07.

we should cut police numbers possibly by up to 10% so it is rank

:15:08.:15:10.

hypocrisy. On the question of judging us on our record, when you

:15:11.:15:13.

judge a Government Prime Minister it is on what you do in practice and on

:15:14.:15:15.

Saturday night, in horrific circumstances, there was a terrific

:15:16.:15:19.

response, within eight minutes they were taken out, not just because we

:15:20.:15:22.

have the right resources but the right leadership, willing to do the

:15:23.:15:26.

difficult things that need to be done in that situation. Jeremy

:15:27.:15:29.

Corbyn has done a U-turn overnight... Let's talk about that.

:15:30.:15:34.

Leadership and response is important, people have to know what

:15:35.:15:37.

action is going to be taken and whether they have political support.

:15:38.:15:41.

Do you share your leader's view that there are problems with the current

:15:42.:15:45.

shoot-to-kill policy that the police used on Saturday night? Our leaders

:15:46.:15:50.

spoke out last night that he is clear that he would support the

:15:51.:15:53.

police taking similar action in similar circumstances in the future.

:15:54.:15:56.

Let's listen to what he said two years ago on this.

:15:57.:16:04.

If we saw the kind of horror in Paris here,

:16:05.:16:06.

if you were Prime Minister, would you order security services

:16:07.:16:08.

onto the street to stop people being killed?

:16:09.:16:10.

Of course you'd bring people onto the streets to prevent

:16:11.:16:13.

and ensure there is safety within our society.

:16:14.:16:15.

Much better that's done by the police than the security

:16:16.:16:17.

services, much better we have strong and effective community policing,

:16:18.:16:19.

neighbourhood policing and a cohesive society that

:16:20.:16:21.

Obviously that is essential, and so that's one of the messages

:16:22.:16:25.

I will be putting to the Prime Minister.

:16:26.:16:27.

But if you were Prime Minister, would you be happy to order people,

:16:28.:16:30.

police or military, to shoot-to-kill on Britain's streets.

:16:31.:16:32.

I'm not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general, I think

:16:33.:16:36.

that is quite dangerous and I think can often be counter-productive.

:16:37.:16:41.

I think you have to have security that prevents people firing off

:16:42.:16:44.

There are various degrees of doing things, as we know,

:16:45.:16:51.

but the idea you end up with a war on the streets is not a good thing.

:16:52.:16:55.

Surely you have to work to try and prevent these things happening,

:16:56.:16:58.

So Jeremy Corbyn wasn't happy with this shoot to kill policy. He said

:16:59.:17:17.

two years ago, he said it was dangerous and counter-productive?

:17:18.:17:20.

Have you shown the clip of what he said last night where he would

:17:21.:17:23.

support the police and any action they need to take. Should people

:17:24.:17:28.

believe what he said two years ago, because he was very clear about it,

:17:29.:17:34.

or should they believe what he said last night? People should judge what

:17:35.:17:39.

we said in the manifesto and this election campaign. Jeremy said last

:17:40.:17:42.

night, we will support the police to take the action they need to take,

:17:43.:17:48.

including what they did the other night, to shoot those despicable

:17:49.:17:51.

terrorists who are killing people on the streets. There is this issue of

:17:52.:17:57.

trust. Seamus Milne was recorded on a train discussing how Jeremy Corbyn

:17:58.:18:02.

should handle questions over Trident renewal and shut down those

:18:03.:18:06.

questions on Trident renewal. And he said, this is a proxy question, so

:18:07.:18:11.

that is why I am always saying I think we will do whatever is

:18:12.:18:16.

necessary and effective to protect our people. The same line Jeremy

:18:17.:18:21.

Corbyn news last night, whatever is necessary and effective. Is that

:18:22.:18:26.

your leader's answer to disguise his true views? He has been clear on his

:18:27.:18:32.

position over nuclear weapons. But the Labour Party's position. I don't

:18:33.:18:37.

want to talk about Trident renewal because we know what his views are

:18:38.:18:40.

on that and he has been consistent, but this line he was advised to use

:18:41.:18:46.

by his head of communication, a catch all phrase to say whatever is

:18:47.:18:51.

necessary in an election campaign to reassure people to disguise his

:18:52.:18:55.

views when two years ago he said he wasn't happy with this shoot to kill

:18:56.:19:01.

policy. Advisers advise all the time. Theresa May will be getting

:19:02.:19:05.

advice as well. But he used that line. Yes, advisers will advise

:19:06.:19:15.

Dominic. Isn't it just because we are in an election he has two save

:19:16.:19:22.

what is necessary. His real views are quite clear, it is

:19:23.:19:27.

counter-productive and dangerous. He says we will maintain our nuclear

:19:28.:19:32.

deterrent. We would use it. Nobody wants to be in a position where you

:19:33.:19:37.

would want to use it, that would be the most horrible circumstance. But

:19:38.:19:41.

we will do nothing to compromise the safety of this country. He won't get

:19:42.:19:46.

us cutting police by 20000 and then going to the Police Chiefs and

:19:47.:19:50.

telling them they are crying wolf when they complain about it. You

:19:51.:19:56.

advocated more cuts in policing. Don't talk over each other. It is

:19:57.:20:02.

hypocrisy for them to criticise when they said there would be even more

:20:03.:20:07.

cuts. The bottom line is, and you made the point very clearly, if you

:20:08.:20:13.

got a U-turn on shoot to kill, two days after a terror attack, three

:20:14.:20:18.

days before we go to the polls, it goes directly to leadership. Theresa

:20:19.:20:22.

May has spent six years doing whatever it takes to protect the

:20:23.:20:26.

country. By cutting police by 20,000. Can you talk about the

:20:27.:20:31.

policy about changing one's mind in the middle of a campaign. Can you

:20:32.:20:37.

take what Jeremy Corbyn said last night at face value given the

:20:38.:20:42.

resources and the powers to the police and what they need to do,

:20:43.:20:46.

given what he said two years ago. We have said it in the manifesto, it is

:20:47.:20:51.

a contract with the people and we want to be judged on our record. The

:20:52.:20:57.

Tory party is cutting 20,000 police and 1000 less armed police officers

:20:58.:21:01.

on the streets. When anybody raise that issue with the Prime Minister,

:21:02.:21:07.

she said they were crying wolf. If it is about judging your record and

:21:08.:21:11.

Theresa May and the government cannot be blamed directly, this did

:21:12.:21:16.

happen while the Tories were in power, these three attacks and the

:21:17.:21:19.

murder of Lee Rigby, they have happened when the Tories have been

:21:20.:21:23.

in power. They not accountable? I don't think we went around saying

:21:24.:21:28.

the 7th of July was the responsibility of Tony Blair. Are

:21:29.:21:36.

they accountable for it? The fact of the matter is, you have to take into

:21:37.:21:40.

account the countless terrorist attacks we foiled, the change in the

:21:41.:21:45.

nature of terrorism, the lone wolf attacks. You have made it more

:21:46.:21:50.

difficult by reducing the numbers? We saw on Saturday night with

:21:51.:21:56.

actions, not words, we know we have finite public resources because of

:21:57.:22:00.

the deficit, so we have had to make difficult decisions. We have made

:22:01.:22:03.

sure the armed police and the armed response of the best they could be.

:22:04.:22:08.

We have a leader who will do whatever it takes. Jeremy Corbyn, U

:22:09.:22:15.

turn shoot to kill, drone strikes on Islamic State, he is not prepared to

:22:16.:22:20.

take the difficult decisions. Control orders, you got rid of them

:22:21.:22:21.

as well. Now, it's worth remembering that,

:22:22.:22:24.

whereas there have been three attacks in the last three months,

:22:25.:22:26.

the majority of terrorist plots have been prevented by the police

:22:27.:22:29.

and the security services. Less than three months ago,

:22:30.:22:31.

on Wednesday 22nd March, there was a car and knife attack

:22:32.:22:33.

carried out by one Two weeks ago, on Monday 22nd May,

:22:34.:22:36.

a suicide bomber blew himself up in the Manchester Arena,

:22:37.:22:41.

killing 22 people. And the London Bridge attack

:22:42.:22:46.

on Saturday has currently claimed However, the Prime Minister said

:22:47.:22:49.

yesterday that the police and the intelligence agencies have

:22:50.:22:54.

disrupted five terrorist plots since And, since 2013, the authorities

:22:55.:22:57.

have stopped a total And, as we mentioned earlier,

:22:58.:23:02.

there are around 3000 people currently engaged in plots and up

:23:03.:23:07.

to 18,000 people who have come to the attention

:23:08.:23:11.

of the security services. And joining me to discuss

:23:12.:23:19.

this is Lord Carlile, the former Independent Reviewer

:23:20.:23:22.

of Terrorism Legislation, and Nazir Afzal, the former Chief

:23:23.:23:26.

Prosecutor for North West England. It is worth remembering the majority

:23:27.:23:39.

of terrorist plots are prevented by the authorities but we know there

:23:40.:23:45.

have been three attacks in less than three months. Do you believe the

:23:46.:23:48.

police and intelligence agencies have the powers they need? I do and

:23:49.:23:56.

Cressida Dick said so yesterday. The argument about 20,000 community

:23:57.:23:59.

police officers has nothing to do with terrorism. It is a different

:24:00.:24:04.

argument. But it is clear to all of those involved good knowledge in

:24:05.:24:08.

counterterrorism policing and related issues, the authorities do

:24:09.:24:12.

have the resources they need and they have been broadly very

:24:13.:24:17.

successful. They have intercepted 18 plots in the last three years but of

:24:18.:24:21.

course, as the Prime Minister said in her speech a few minutes ago, I

:24:22.:24:27.

do need to review the policy because of the changing activities of

:24:28.:24:32.

so-called Islamic states. Are the authorities using the powers they

:24:33.:24:35.

have at their disposal, when you look at the legislation? Tpims, I

:24:36.:24:43.

know you have been critical of and they are a looser version of the

:24:44.:24:48.

control order. They have only been used three times and those control

:24:49.:24:53.

orders who can stop jihadist back and stop -- coming back from Syria

:24:54.:25:04.

haven't been used at all. Tpims have not been used. In 2010, 2011, the

:25:05.:25:11.

Coalition Government decided to get rid of control orders, wrongly. It

:25:12.:25:14.

was a political decision by Nick Clegg. As a result, Tpims were

:25:15.:25:20.

brought into effect and they go weaker than control orders. I was

:25:21.:25:26.

the independent reviewer for the whole period to control orders were

:25:27.:25:30.

involved and I looked at them every day. They may have saved many lives.

:25:31.:25:41.

Really? So we should revert in to the insertion into Tpims of the

:25:42.:25:46.

controls under control orders, because it works. What do you say

:25:47.:25:51.

about that? I respect his view, but I am not sure any evidence is there

:25:52.:25:58.

to prevent these last attacks. Control orders leaked, they abscond

:25:59.:26:08.

rate was terrible but it did improve. If you are at a level where

:26:09.:26:12.

you are not sure what people to, you cannot have them permanently on

:26:13.:26:17.

control orders. The reason may says enough is enough and we need to

:26:18.:26:21.

change our approach. Three days before an election, I will be

:26:22.:26:25.

careful about this. If there is any evidence we need to look at any

:26:26.:26:29.

other powers, I will be willing to do that again. But when I looked at

:26:30.:26:34.

this in some detail there wasn't any evidence control orders could deal

:26:35.:26:40.

with the kind of problems we are now seeing. I am not saying control

:26:41.:26:43.

orders would have helped with these individuals, there is no way of

:26:44.:26:48.

knowing. There was no absconding in the last three years of control

:26:49.:26:53.

orders, they were very well want. The control orders were well within

:26:54.:26:56.

human rights legislation and they worked. There were only covering

:26:57.:27:04.

eight people of about 2000. You are wrong about that. At any one time

:27:05.:27:10.

the largest number of people control was 23 and there was always room for

:27:11.:27:18.

that to be increased. Would you support a return to control orders?

:27:19.:27:23.

I would. I thought it was a huge mistake to get rid of them. Jeremy

:27:24.:27:28.

Corbyn was in the same position as the reason may. I would definitely

:27:29.:27:34.

support them. Now, Theresa May made a statement outside Downing Street

:27:35.:27:38.

yesterday and described for areas where more needs to be done, one of

:27:39.:27:41.

those was the Internet and technology. Do you agree the

:27:42.:27:46.

Internet can provide a safe space for terrorists? We know it does. I

:27:47.:27:51.

think they have taken down 250,000 websites in the last two years.

:27:52.:27:55.

There are tens of thousands replacing them. This work is not

:27:56.:27:59.

something just the British have to do, it is international. Most

:28:00.:28:03.

websites are centred in San Diego, California. So yes, there are

:28:04.:28:10.

individuals who are being radicalised online. As we have

:28:11.:28:15.

appreciated, one of the individuals we may talking about in the next day

:28:16.:28:19.

or two will have been radicalised online. There is work that needs to

:28:20.:28:23.

happen online but that is only part of the issue. Most radicalisation

:28:24.:28:27.

takes place within place within communities, within conversations

:28:28.:28:30.

happening in places that aren't just in the mosque any more. We focus on

:28:31.:28:35.

the mosque where people are being radicalised. If anything, it is

:28:36.:28:42.

happening outside the mosque, in places perhaps we don't necessarily

:28:43.:28:45.

have the ability to look into it and see what is going on. But we have

:28:46.:28:48.

got to deal with that. The Prime Minister is right in a sense by

:28:49.:28:51.

saying more needs to be done, but we don't know what needs to be done. I

:28:52.:28:55.

cannot think of any more legislation. Lord Carlile will know

:28:56.:28:59.

better than me, but we have had 11 terrorism acts since 2000. We have

:29:00.:29:04.

run out of names for them now. I cannot think of any more

:29:05.:29:07.

legislation, the conversation you were having a moment ago, go back to

:29:08.:29:13.

stuff we have had before. My point is, the answer to this lies in the

:29:14.:29:17.

communities. Communities have two hapless, they need to be engaged

:29:18.:29:22.

with and be able to trust the people they are giving the information too.

:29:23.:29:26.

What you may have touched on is, there has been thousands of of

:29:27.:29:29.

information coming through through the security services but do they

:29:30.:29:36.

have the resources to act upon that? I will leave the politicians to deal

:29:37.:29:40.

with that. There have been claims made people called about the people

:29:41.:29:44.

involved in the last two attacks and be perhaps were not followed up. It

:29:45.:29:49.

hasn't been verified in that sense but did look up the cause, let's

:29:50.:29:59.

look at the Prevent programme. It has been criticised by some parts of

:30:00.:30:02.

the Muslim community, the Labour Party has criticised it, what is

:30:03.:30:07.

wrong with it? It works very well when it works. It is poorly

:30:08.:30:11.

communicated, poor engagement in the community. It is Miss understood in

:30:12.:30:16.

some respects. Sometimes deliberately this understood by

:30:17.:30:20.

people who wish to undermine it, for whatever reason. But when it works,

:30:21.:30:25.

it works well. I can think of a thousand examples. This is part of

:30:26.:30:28.

the problem with communication. All you hear of his examples when

:30:29.:30:33.

somebody got it wrong. The reality is, I have a thousand examples where

:30:34.:30:37.

people have been worked with, ensured they don't go off to Syria

:30:38.:30:41.

in 150 cases or in other cases they have been given mental health

:30:42.:30:48.

support or other career support. So it does work, but it hasn't worked

:30:49.:30:49.

routinely across-the-board. Andy Burnham says the Prevent

:30:50.:31:08.

creates alienation and the vision. Why do you want to drop it or

:31:09.:31:13.

replace In places where it works it works

:31:14.:31:22.

well, in other places it is viewed with suspicion. Is that because you

:31:23.:31:29.

have undermined it? The part of the world I represent and hope to carry

:31:30.:31:33.

on representing we have Prevent, I know it well, we work with it and

:31:34.:31:37.

the picture that has been painted of elements of it working well and

:31:38.:31:40.

being very important and we need to continue with it is one I absolutely

:31:41.:31:45.

understand. We are saying, let's review it, let's involve the

:31:46.:31:52.

community in Prevent. Did you think Prevent has been undermined? I agree

:31:53.:31:57.

with every word Nazir said, it has been deliberately undermined by some

:31:58.:32:03.

people. I believe, on the evidence I have seen, which is quite a lot,

:32:04.:32:07.

that where Prevent works well, it works very, very well, and to say we

:32:08.:32:11.

should get rid of it and start again is just ludicrous. What we need to

:32:12.:32:15.

do is take the best practice of Prevent and roll it out across the

:32:16.:32:20.

country with greater funding. This Government has promised that

:32:21.:32:23.

funding. I hope that in the future... But it has been cut in

:32:24.:32:28.

recent times. No, the Prevent funding has not been cut, it has

:32:29.:32:32.

been increased consistently. There have been problems with changing

:32:33.:32:37.

strategies towards Prevent, particularly around 2010-11, but

:32:38.:32:41.

Prevent has been doing well, and other countries' capital have asked

:32:42.:32:49.

how we do it. A lot of community groups were getting money to work

:32:50.:32:54.

with young people... But Labour's line was that it has been cut? It is

:32:55.:32:59.

legitimate to remove funding from one programme and put it into

:33:00.:33:02.

another, that has happened all over the country. In the constituency I

:33:03.:33:08.

represent, groups were complaining that the work they had been doing

:33:09.:33:11.

with younger men had to be scaled back because the money was not there

:33:12.:33:15.

any more. When I mention the community, of course, there is no

:33:16.:33:17.

such thing as one homogenous Muslim community. Muslim communities, in

:33:18.:33:26.

London they come from 52 countries, in the north they come from two or

:33:27.:33:34.

three. The issue I have is that everybody, local Government as well,

:33:35.:33:37.

is very lazy, it goes to the same community leaders, it does not go

:33:38.:33:45.

out to the people doing phenomenal work in their communities and

:33:46.:33:47.

support them in what they are doing. I think we need to change our

:33:48.:33:49.

approach. Thank you both very much. Now let's find out

:33:50.:33:51.

what else is happening There was a moment yesterday,

:33:52.:34:02.

possibly the only moment in the whole election campaign, where all

:34:03.:34:05.

the parties agreed on one thing, something that Theresa May set out

:34:06.:34:09.

here. She said violence can never be allowed to disrupt the general

:34:10.:34:12.

cryptic process and the general election will go ahead on Thursday.

:34:13.:34:16.

All main parties except Ukip yesterday agreed to suspend national

:34:17.:34:19.

campaigning but then we saw Theresa May come out and make a speech about

:34:20.:34:24.

what she saw as some of the issues with her counterterrorism strategy,

:34:25.:34:28.

critics say it was highly critical, and Jeremy Corbyn later on had a

:34:29.:34:38.

speech in which he made some of his own criticisms, and again critics of

:34:39.:34:41.

his said it was highly critical. Ukip did take part in a special

:34:42.:34:42.

debate in the evening. Ukip's Paul Nuttall faced Jo

:34:43.:34:44.

and a studio audience at a special debate in Bristol,

:34:45.:34:46.

where, not surprisingly, I mentioned waterboarding

:34:47.:34:48.

in the case if there was going to be an imminent terrorist attack,

:34:49.:34:56.

and if we had to find out information quickly,

:34:57.:34:59.

I wouldn't take anything off the table to ensure

:35:00.:35:00.

that British women, men The Green co-leader Jonathan Bartley

:35:01.:35:02.

was grilled at the same event, and was far from willing to commit

:35:03.:35:11.

to the use of drone strikes abroad. It's going to be a matter

:35:12.:35:14.

of international law, You have to take every case

:35:15.:35:16.

on a case-by-case basis. This morning, though,

:35:17.:35:20.

the campaign was well The giveaway - a party

:35:21.:35:21.

leader in a pinny. The Lib Dems have been clear

:35:22.:35:25.

they're not keen on Brexit. Now it appears Tim Farron is not

:35:26.:35:36.

keen on breakfast either. Nicola Sturgeon has been

:35:37.:35:41.

taking the really high They're calling it the Nicolopter,

:35:42.:35:43.

apparently, as the SNP leader gets around 30 constituencies

:35:44.:35:50.

across Scotland before polling day. And then she made this pretty

:35:51.:35:52.

incredible pitch to voters. Ellie Price reporting at the

:35:53.:36:00.

beginning of that film. The Democratic Unionist Party leader

:36:01.:36:09.

Arlene Foster says the Northern Ireland parties were close

:36:10.:36:12.

to an agreement on Brexit before their talks were interrupted

:36:13.:36:14.

by Theresa May's announcement The traditional contest

:36:15.:36:16.

in Northern Ireland between unionists and nationalists

:36:17.:36:20.

is being played out against a backdrop of uncertainty

:36:21.:36:22.

over what Brexit will mean for the border with the Irish

:36:23.:36:24.

Republic, which will be the UK's In a moment we'll speak

:36:25.:36:27.

to Arlene Foster, but first our Northern Ireland political editor

:36:28.:36:34.

Mark Devenport reports from Mrs Foster's home constituency

:36:35.:36:36.

of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, where her DUP is backing a candidate

:36:37.:36:43.

from the Ulster Unionist Party in an attempt to hold the highly

:36:44.:36:45.

marginal seat against a strong In Fermanagh, it's not just politics

:36:46.:36:48.

which is balanced on a knife edge. The county's award-winning black

:36:49.:36:53.

bacon is exported far afield. But this Enniskillen butcher fears

:36:54.:36:57.

that Brexit might prove a rash move. Right across Europe,

:36:58.:37:02.

we can export our bacon. Now, the big concern for us

:37:03.:37:05.

is what is going to happen Everyone talks about the hard Brexit

:37:06.:37:11.

and the soft Brexit, but reality is it is just one word,

:37:12.:37:17.

"Brexit," and we are, from the business community,

:37:18.:37:20.

we feel that we're in a wee bit This isn't no-man's land,

:37:21.:37:23.

it's the Sheridans' land. Son David and father Robert farm

:37:24.:37:29.

on either side of the border, crisscrossing the frontier at least

:37:30.:37:33.

two or three times a day. David voted for Brexit because

:37:34.:37:37.

of his annoyance with EU red tape. Now both generations are concerned

:37:38.:37:42.

about what the future might hold. We're on the border as you know

:37:43.:37:50.

here, and it's maybe going across to our farm,

:37:51.:37:52.

back and forward, maybe we'd be Nobody seems to know

:37:53.:37:55.

at the minute, there's nothing set in stone,

:37:56.:37:58.

we don't know. The outgoing Ulster Unionist MP

:37:59.:38:00.

Tom Elliott backed leaving the EU. If he holds his seat,

:38:01.:38:03.

he promises to fight for a deal which will work for people living

:38:04.:38:06.

along the border. Like all her Sinn Fein colleagues,

:38:07.:38:12.

Michelle Gildernew will refuse to take her seat at Westminster

:38:13.:38:14.

if she wins, but she says she will lobby for Northern Ireland

:38:15.:38:22.

to retain special European status. I think Tom won the seat last

:38:23.:38:24.

time against the odds, and I think it's going to be even

:38:25.:38:27.

tougher for him this time. I think Sinn Fein were quite taken

:38:28.:38:30.

aback the last time at losing, there were some problems internally,

:38:31.:38:33.

some problems with their organisation of getting the vote

:38:34.:38:35.

out, and they were stung by that, so they will really

:38:36.:38:38.

go for it this time. Unlike Sinn Fein, the moderate

:38:39.:38:45.

nationalist SDLP candidate Mary Garrity promises both to fight

:38:46.:38:49.

Brexit and take a seat But if past elections

:38:50.:38:51.

here are anything to go by, she's likely to be a long way behind

:38:52.:38:57.

the front runners. It seems very likely that

:38:58.:39:01.

Sinn Fein will take the seat. They're on a roll, the SDLP

:39:02.:39:04.

candidate is not well known, and there's a feeling that,

:39:05.:39:10.

in the wider Catholic nationalist republican community,

:39:11.:39:14.

that unionists, having been pushed out of the majority,

:39:15.:39:16.

lost the majority in the last election here for the Assembly,

:39:17.:39:18.

should not be allowed pretend to re-establish it in a first

:39:19.:39:24.

past the post election. Besides being the most westerly

:39:25.:39:29.

constituency in this election, Fermanagh South Tyrone has to be one

:39:30.:39:32.

of the most picturesque. These are the stunning

:39:33.:39:36.

Marble Arch Caves, part of a limestone system

:39:37.:39:39.

which stretches under the border. Whatever happens to the border up

:39:40.:39:44.

on the surface, here the stalactites will continue to hang down

:39:45.:39:47.

and the stalagmites But these caves are the centrepiece

:39:48.:39:52.

of a cross-border geopark which has benefited from hundreds of thousands

:39:53.:40:00.

of pounds of European funding, so even down here the implications

:40:01.:40:02.

of Brexit run deep. And we're joined now from Belfast

:40:03.:40:07.

by DUP leader Arlene Foster. Welcome to the Daily Politics. A

:40:08.:40:22.

majority of people in Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU,

:40:23.:40:26.

yours was the only party to officially back Brexit. Why should

:40:27.:40:29.

anybody worried about Brexit vote for the DUP? The question was asked

:40:30.:40:35.

as a national question and that being the case we have to respect

:40:36.:40:38.

the National opinion, and that was that we are to leave the European

:40:39.:40:42.

Union. We are not fighting old battles. What we want to do now is

:40:43.:40:47.

get on and get the best deal for Northern Ireland in the EU

:40:48.:40:49.

negotiations and that is why it is very important that we have a strong

:40:50.:40:54.

team of DUP MPs return to Westminster on Thursday so they can

:40:55.:40:58.

speak up for Northern Ireland and stand strong for Northern Ireland

:40:59.:41:02.

will stop what might convince people to vote for the DUP is if you had

:41:03.:41:07.

assurances from the UK Government about how the customs arrangement

:41:08.:41:12.

will work on the Irish border. Those negotiations have just begun. The

:41:13.:41:18.

Irish Government and our own Government have said they don't want

:41:19.:41:23.

a hard border. That is not an assurance, is it? What we have do do

:41:24.:41:28.

now is work together to make sure that is a reality and use the

:41:29.:41:34.

technology at our disposal to make it happen in a way that respects the

:41:35.:41:40.

Common travel area before we entered the European Union. When I spoke to

:41:41.:41:44.

Sinn Fein a few days ago, they said they couldn't see any scenario in

:41:45.:41:49.

which there would be a totally frictionless border, whatever

:41:50.:41:53.

happened in the Brexit negotiations, and that would seriously hamper

:41:54.:41:56.

business interests and that Common travel area that you talked about.

:41:57.:42:00.

Of course Sinn Fein are the only people talking about a hard border

:42:01.:42:04.

and they are doing that for a very political reason, they said they

:42:05.:42:08.

want no Brexit, no border, no Tory cuts. They don't have a positive

:42:09.:42:12.

vision at all for Northern Ireland. But you cannot give the assurances

:42:13.:42:16.

that what they are saying is wrong. What I am saying is they are the

:42:17.:42:27.

only people saying, talking about a hard border but in actual fact

:42:28.:42:29.

everyone else is working very hard to make sure that doesn't happen.

:42:30.:42:31.

They are becoming very much, going back to their roots and becoming a

:42:32.:42:34.

party of protest, standing outside talking about what they don't want

:42:35.:42:36.

to see instead of getting on and making sure that we developed a

:42:37.:42:40.

Northern Ireland outside of the European Union that works for

:42:41.:42:43.

everybody. Let's talk about relations with Sinn Fein, the

:42:44.:42:47.

Stormont executive relies on good relations between first and Deputy

:42:48.:42:50.

First Minister, you compared Sinn Fein to a crocodile which would keep

:42:51.:42:55.

coming back for more if you feed it. Would you put the relationship with

:42:56.:43:01.

Michele O'Neil back after the election campaign saying things like

:43:02.:43:04.

that? That was the last campaign by Sinn Fein Haupt -- pulled out of the

:43:05.:43:11.

assembly and the executive. Why did they do that? Tell us about the

:43:12.:43:15.

heating scandal but you were criticised for? If you let me

:43:16.:43:18.

finish, they won't take their seats at Westminster either so they are

:43:19.:43:21.

becoming a party of protest as opposed to a party of Government

:43:22.:43:25.

that wants to get on and advocate for the people they represent and

:43:26.:43:30.

their mandate, so I think it is regrettable that that is the case. I

:43:31.:43:34.

would encourage them to come back to the table after the elections and

:43:35.:43:39.

should be realistic about setting back of the devolved institutions

:43:40.:43:42.

because I think everyone in Northern Ireland wants to see devolution

:43:43.:43:45.

working for everybody in Northern Ireland, not just one community but

:43:46.:43:49.

for everybody. Do you think you could build relations with Michelle

:43:50.:43:53.

O'Neill? I respect Michelle O'Neill and I would hope she would respect

:43:54.:43:57.

my mandate as leader of the largest party in Northern Ireland but we

:43:58.:44:00.

will have to see if that is the case after the elections on Thursday,

:44:01.:44:04.

whether she respects my mandate, because after the elections we go

:44:05.:44:06.

back into negotiations to try to get

:44:07.:44:20.

devolution back as quickly as possible. What are your red lines

:44:21.:44:22.

when it comes to power-sharing? And Irish language act, gay marriage,

:44:23.:44:24.

investigations into killings by state forces during the troubles?

:44:25.:44:26.

Those are all red lines from Sinn Fein, we don't have any red lines,

:44:27.:44:28.

we want to see devolution back up as quickly as we can. If we could start

:44:29.:44:33.

today, I would do so. Can I ask, why speaking to the Belfast Telegraph

:44:34.:44:38.

did a former minister said that same-sex marriage is a red line for

:44:39.:44:42.

his party that would prevent a Government being formed? I said

:44:43.:44:46.

those are red lines were Sinn Fein, they are saying they won't come back

:44:47.:44:49.

into Government until they get all of these things sorted out. What I'm

:44:50.:44:52.

saying is, let's get devolution back up and running and let's sort out

:44:53.:44:57.

these issues as elected representatives working for

:44:58.:45:01.

everybody, because people are hugely frustrated, they want to see us back

:45:02.:45:04.

in Government dealing with the reform of our health service, which

:45:05.:45:07.

desperately needs it, as we know from the waiting lists, they want to

:45:08.:45:14.

see us dealing with education and infrastructure and jobs, so it is

:45:15.:45:18.

wrong that Sinn Fein are holding us all to ransom and saying, unless all

:45:19.:45:22.

of these matters are dealt with, we won't go back into devolution. We

:45:23.:45:25.

want devolution back up and running now and it would be good if she

:45:26.:45:28.

would come back in with her party and start governing, that is of

:45:29.:45:33.

course what she was elected to do. Arlene Foster, thank you. it.

:45:34.:45:35.

Now it's time for the latest in our series of interviews

:45:36.:45:38.

with the smaller parties standing in the general election on Thursday.

:45:39.:45:42.

The National Health Action party was founded in 2012 by two

:45:43.:45:45.

consultants who opposed the Health and Social Care Act, which enacted

:45:46.:45:48.

The party would start by repealing the 2012 Health and Social Care Act

:45:49.:45:52.

which would reverse the reforms, including the removal

:45:53.:45:54.

of the requirement to tender out contracts to the private sector.

:45:55.:45:58.

They would also ensure that NHS funding increases in real

:45:59.:46:02.

And call for the abolition of prescription charges in England

:46:03.:46:08.

as is existing policy in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

:46:09.:46:13.

The party would introduce free social care and increase funding

:46:14.:46:16.

to meet the needs of vulnerable elderly and disabled people.

:46:17.:46:21.

And on Brexit the NHA want to safeguard the UK's

:46:22.:46:23.

collaboration with the EU on health issues and medical research.

:46:24.:46:27.

And now we are joined by the National Health Action

:46:28.:46:29.

Thank you for coming onto the programme. Why do we need your

:46:30.:46:45.

party? Our party started five years ago with the intention of fighting

:46:46.:46:54.

to defend the NHS against cuts, underfunding and private Eye

:46:55.:46:56.

Shenzhen. I think we need it now than ever before. I think we have

:46:57.:47:02.

influenced Labour Party policy at the moment which has moved closer to

:47:03.:47:07.

our position. But it is a single issue party? No, we fight on all the

:47:08.:47:14.

social determinants of health, and that includes housing, education,

:47:15.:47:18.

the environment, inequality, poverty and all those issues. You say you

:47:19.:47:25.

have influence the Labour Party, which part of the manifesto have

:47:26.:47:30.

been written with you in mind? We're part of a broader movement, moved it

:47:31.:47:34.

towards the manifesto, it talks about repealing the health and

:47:35.:47:40.

social care act. Which, we as a campaigner, I have been a campaigner

:47:41.:47:44.

on the NHS for many years, including under the Labour government, it has

:47:45.:47:48.

been reluctant to address the issue of privatisation of the NHS. I

:47:49.:47:53.

welcome that, but I feel we need people like our party and other

:47:54.:47:59.

campaigners to help. You thank Louise for your manifesto, it was

:48:00.:48:03.

under Labour that opting out to the private sector started? I am pleased

:48:04.:48:08.

to the endorsement. Would you have done it without them? Yes, and the

:48:09.:48:15.

party for the NHS is the Labour Party because we will put in 37

:48:16.:48:20.

billion to get rid of the waiting lists, get rid of the health and

:48:21.:48:24.

social care act tampered capital investment into the NHS. Not by

:48:25.:48:29.

forcing hospitals to sell off assets, we will give hospitals the

:48:30.:48:33.

money to rebuild them and invest in IT as well. Would you rather see a

:48:34.:48:38.

Labour Party elected than a Conservative Party? I would prefer

:48:39.:48:41.

the Labour Party, as long as they stayed true to their promises. In

:48:42.:48:48.

1997 Tony Blair promised to end the privatisation of the NHS and get rid

:48:49.:48:52.

of PFI, not to go forward with PFI and they did the complete opposite.

:48:53.:48:59.

We can't just trust people because of their manifesto. What you say

:49:00.:49:01.

about the funding, your proposed funding isn't even going to meet the

:49:02.:49:08.

projected rate of growth, if it kept up with GDP rates. He said the

:49:09.:49:14.

Labour Party will not keep pace with a growing elderly population and

:49:15.:49:18.

perhaps rising inflation at the moment. How would you fund an

:49:19.:49:23.

increase in NHS funding eye 4% in real terms every year? This is not a

:49:24.:49:31.

number we have picked out of the air. The OBR and other policies say

:49:32.:49:38.

to maintain the quality of services and meet growing the mind, three to

:49:39.:49:45.

4% is not keeping in line with the average running. People will want to

:49:46.:49:51.

know how to fund it? I will not be part of the government and not

:49:52.:49:55.

making detailed budget plans, but we will be pushing government, whoever

:49:56.:50:00.

is in government to meet the funding need. It can be done through

:50:01.:50:04.

taxation, in different ways, progressive taxation but also

:50:05.:50:08.

looking at tax avoidance, corporate tax and those things. It can be done

:50:09.:50:13.

by reducing the bureaucracy in the NHS and investing in health and

:50:14.:50:18.

education. Do you accept that actually, in order to meet the needs

:50:19.:50:24.

of a growing elderly population and rising costs, you need to look at

:50:25.:50:28.

funding of 4% in the round every year in real terms in the NHS? I had

:50:29.:50:37.

a look at the National health party manifesto, most G-7 countries have

:50:38.:50:40.

an insurance contribution -based approach. Like Germany for instance?

:50:41.:50:49.

Yes, and we are unique. The answer on funding is very clear, you have

:50:50.:50:54.

got to have a strong economy. The problem is, this wish list of issues

:50:55.:51:00.

you want to spend money on... If you have a strong economy, why can't you

:51:01.:51:05.

spend more if you have different priorities? It is the only way to

:51:06.:51:09.

get the revenue and it is revenue that pays for public services,

:51:10.:51:12.

having a wish list is for the birds, unless you have a strong economy and

:51:13.:51:18.

only the Conservatives can do that. Is there no role for the private

:51:19.:51:23.

sector within the NHS? They could be a small role where there are gaps in

:51:24.:51:27.

provision, temporarily. You shouldn't structure the NHS around

:51:28.:51:33.

the market-based system. It is wasteful, it fragments and it is

:51:34.:51:37.

chaotic and it short-changes patients because it diverts money

:51:38.:51:42.

from front-line care. We would have an NHS which is substantially a

:51:43.:51:46.

public service and we want to bring legislation to reinstated as a

:51:47.:51:48.

public servers, more than just repealing the health and social care

:51:49.:51:51.

act, reversing all of the privatisation. Thank you.

:51:52.:51:57.

As we enter the final days of the general election campaign,

:51:58.:52:00.

the pollsters have been very busy and we were greeted by a flurry

:52:01.:52:03.

An Opinium for the Observer found support for the Conservatives had

:52:04.:52:07.

dipped to 43% with Labour on 37%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip on 5%

:52:08.:52:11.

and a Survation poll for the Sunday Times predicts

:52:12.:52:13.

support for the Conservatives will fall further to 40% with Labour

:52:14.:52:16.

I'm taking it to London's Southbank Centre to ask people's views

:52:17.:52:22.

And here's the question we're asking the great

:52:23.:52:25.

British public today, opinion polls -

:52:26.:52:27.

On the day, they never seem to come out as planned previously,

:52:28.:52:39.

so I think there's an element of fiction to it.

:52:40.:52:41.

OK, put it back in, very honest, very honest.

:52:42.:52:48.

Because what people say about what they're going

:52:49.:52:51.

to do isn't necessarily what they are going to do.

:52:52.:52:54.

Here's someone who juggles data for a living.

:52:55.:52:56.

What do you think about this as an opinion gathering method?

:52:57.:53:01.

Well, as my idol Peter Snow would say, it's just a bit of fun.

:53:02.:53:05.

When you are looking to do an accurate, scientific poll,

:53:06.:53:07.

you hope to accurately represent the population you are trying

:53:08.:53:13.

to survey in the sample that takes part in that survey.

:53:14.:53:15.

So, for instance you need the right number of old people,

:53:16.:53:19.

the right number of young people, the right number of

:53:20.:53:21.

After the last election, the professionals realised

:53:22.:53:27.

they didn't have the right number of Tory supporters and had spoken

:53:28.:53:30.

I think some people don't always say what they think.

:53:31.:53:36.

That's the problem, particularly Tory voters.

:53:37.:53:38.

And why are different polling companies coming up

:53:39.:54:01.

Usually you could come up with four or five reasons why pollsters

:54:02.:54:07.

are coming up with different numbers, but on this occasion

:54:08.:54:09.

there is something quite straightforward going on.

:54:10.:54:13.

And it's whether or not you believe young people and people who didn't

:54:14.:54:16.

turn out in the last general election in 2015, who now

:54:17.:54:20.

say they are going to, whether they actually do.

:54:21.:54:22.

If you believe them, then it's a closer race.

:54:23.:54:27.

Those pollsters who are saying it is a three, four point lead

:54:28.:54:30.

If, like me and you tend to be suspicious of people who say

:54:31.:54:35.

they will change behaviours which are fairly embedded

:54:36.:54:41.

in historical precedent, then you should believe the likes

:54:42.:54:43.

of me and I'm saying currently it's a 12 point

:54:44.:54:46.

We are doing a survey about opinion polls...

:54:47.:54:49.

In other words, are we all asking too many youngsters and people

:54:50.:54:52.

Do you pick up the newspaper every day and go, "I wonder

:54:53.:54:57.

No, I'm pretty sure what the polls are going to say.

:54:58.:55:02.

Theresa May is still ahead but Labour is squeezing in there.

:55:03.:55:05.

YouGov has suggested that would result in a hung parliament.

:55:06.:55:08.

Based on the current polling, we produced a broad range

:55:09.:55:13.

At the time, it was anything from 274 to 345 seats

:55:14.:55:18.

You need 326 for a majority, at that time it was possible that

:55:19.:55:25.

a hung parliament could occur, if there was an election that day.

:55:26.:55:30.

The headline was, "YouGov Predicts A Hung Parliament."

:55:31.:55:33.

What you often see during an election campaign

:55:34.:55:39.

is that the interpretation polls, whether it's by broadcasters

:55:40.:55:43.

or the media, or social media, is somewhat different

:55:44.:55:45.

from the interpretation of the polls we put out.

:55:46.:55:49.

After three sweltering hours of doing this...

:55:50.:55:52.

Who's got some opinions they'd like to share with me?

:55:53.:55:57.

Maybe the politicians have a point, the polls are fascinating snapshots,

:55:58.:56:01.

but it's the one on June the 8th that's most accurate.

:56:02.:56:06.

There we go, a big majority of people here on the Southbank

:56:07.:56:09.

think the opinion polls are more fiction than science.

:56:10.:56:11.

And here ends possibly the dodgiest opinion poll

:56:12.:56:13.

That has never stopped the Daily Politics and both of you are banned

:56:14.:56:34.

in the next discussion by saying the only one counts is Thursday. There

:56:35.:56:38.

is a confused picture and the polls seem to have a Conservative lead of

:56:39.:56:44.

1% of the 12%, but there is a general trend in support going to

:56:45.:56:48.

Labour? The polls have definitely narrowed. We would argue there could

:56:49.:56:55.

be Jeremy Corbyn in Number Ten. But as a candidate, the polling thing is

:56:56.:57:00.

a distraction. It is great for the media, different story huge day. Do

:57:01.:57:05.

you ever look at the polls? I keep an eye on them, but it is a

:57:06.:57:08.

distraction on getting the message across. We are getting the message

:57:09.:57:13.

across on leadership. All this tittle tattle about polls,

:57:14.:57:17.

particularly when they are so far ranging and so far apart, is a

:57:18.:57:23.

distraction. It is good for the media, I am not so sure it is good

:57:24.:57:26.

for the country and for a politician trying to get elected. Do you ignore

:57:27.:57:31.

them all together or are you taking more interest now as they seem to be

:57:32.:57:35.

moving in your direction with a focus on younger people voting

:57:36.:57:40.

Labour? I have ignored them since the last general election. I

:57:41.:57:46.

thought, in 2015, I thought we were heading towards a hung parliament

:57:47.:57:50.

and then the exit poll came out at ten o'clock. What I would say is,

:57:51.:57:55.

seven or eight weeks ago, it felt like the Conservatives were very far

:57:56.:58:00.

ahead. I am still getting on the doorstep, people raising the

:58:01.:58:04.

dementia tax, the Tories taking away free school meals. I think people

:58:05.:58:07.

have looked that Theresa May, she is not what she thought, she doesn't

:58:08.:58:17.

represent what they thought she was. She has been exposed under the

:58:18.:58:21.

scrutiny, the same as Jeremy Corbyn. Your media love to do this thing

:58:22.:58:27.

based on the frostiness of the polls. We have seen on economy and

:58:28.:58:31.

Brexit. I feel a party message coming on. She has shown she has got

:58:32.:58:38.

the leadership and has got the strength of character frankly, to

:58:39.:58:41.

lead this country on the key issue that counts, which will be the

:58:42.:58:46.

Brexit negotiation. She cut the NHS, she got skills and she will carry on

:58:47.:58:47.

cutting the police. The One o'clock News is starting

:58:48.:58:50.

over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon

:58:51.:58:54.

tomorrow with all the big political stories of the day,

:58:55.:58:57.

do join me then.

:58:58.:59:00.

Jo Coburn is joined by Labour's Jon Ashworth and the Conservatives' Dominic Raab. They examine the implications of the June 2017 terrorist attack in central London with Nazir Afzal, who was a senior lawyer for the Crown Prosecution Service, and Lord Carlile, the former independent reviewer of terrorism legislation.

DUP Leader Arlene Foster discusses her party's election prospects and potential pacts with fellow unionist parties, and Jo also speaks to Louise Irvine of the NHS Action Party.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS