06/06/2017 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

The Mayor of London, Labour's Sadiq Khan,

warns cuts to the Met Police could make it harder

to foil terror attacks, the Conservatives say police numbers

"remain high", as the parties argue over how best to protect

The Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson says Britain's destiny is to be

friends and partners with the rest of the world, as he sets out

the Conservatives' plan for new trade deals after Brexit.

Could the Conservatives make gains in Wales,

at the expense of Labour, in the election on Thursday?

We're on the campaign trail in Wrexham.

Imagine we were halfway through the working week already.

We've brought the mood box to Bristol to test out

the Greens' policy of a three-day weekend for everyone.

I would love to have a three-day weekend but I'm

thinking does that mean a lot of my money's going

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

of the programme today is Jonathan Bartley,

But first, the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has warned

that the Metropolitan Police is facing the loss of thousands

of front line officers, under Conservative spending plans.

Mr Khan says Scotland Yard could lose up to 40% of its constables -

making it harder to prevent future terror attacks.

Under a renewed Theresa May government, as a consequence of the

cuts to our policing budget, we'd have fewer police officers,

and all the experts tell me, by the way, that one of the

ways we counter terrorism is by fantastic police in the community.

Members of the community of all backgrounds report intelligence to

police officers in the community, they pass it on and it helps keep

There's no doubt fewer police officers means we're in more danger.

The Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson rejected

the Labour criticism, defending the Government's record

on spending on the police and security services.

I have to say I think first of all that is wrong.

Police numbers in London have remained high.

And, secondly, we protected police budgets in 2015 and the Labour

Party, as I recall, actually wanted to cut them by 10%.

But all that argument detracts from the

responsibility of these scumbags for what they have done and we should

Boris Johnson. In the last hour of the Metropolitan Police have said

they believed the third London Bridge attacker was Youssef Zaghba,

a Moroccan Italian man who was not a subject of interest to the police or

MI5. We're joined now by our Assistant

Political Editor, Norman Smith. How damaging is this continuing row

over numbers of the police and security services and resources in

general in terms of the Government? I think it is damaging because it

just stops to reason me getting onto the agenda she wanted to focus on in

the last days of the campaign. She wants it to be about Brexit and yet

again and again when she is out and about what she is challenged over is

this reduction in police numbers, and why it matters so much is

because it is very personal to Theresa May. She was Home Secretary,

she provided over this cut in police numbers of around 20,000. The other

thing that strikes me about it is it is a very simple concept for voters

to grasp, it's not one of these much more difficult issues like the

social care cap and the U-turn over that. A cut of police numbers is a

very simple idea to get hold of. The last thing that I think compounds

the difficulties Theresa May faces is the reluctance to openly concede

that, yes, she has presided over a significant cut in police numbers.

We saw that to some extent with the social care row with Theresa May

unwilling to admit there had been a U-turn and that grates with voters

and they find it exasperating that Theresa May is unable to concede

what is a fact, police numbers have been cut. What about full Labour? Is

very difficulty on the doorstep for Labour candidates if there is an

impression that Jeremy Corbyn is viewed as soft on terror because he

hadn't voted in favour of numerous counts of terrorism legislation?

That clearly is the hope and calculation of the Conservatives,

who today have tried to sort of shift the focus onto Mr Corbyn and

Diane Abbott's own record and their opposition to previous anti-terror

legislation. I think it's harder for them frankly

when you have individuals like Sadiq Khan coming out with this very stark

suggestion that it's not just historic police cuts at the Met has

to face ongoing police cuts, he says of around 400 million or more, which

he says could mean a reduction of between 10%-40% of the total police

forceful stop it is harder to be so dismissive of a figure like Sadiq

Khan, in part because Theresa May and others have come out and

publicly praised him for his handling in the aftermath of the

terror attack. Norman Smith, thank you.

We've been joined from Bristol by the former

Conservative Chief Whip, Mark Harper, and from Birmingham

Welcome to both of you gentlemen. Mark Harper, first of all. We have

seen one of the terrorists involved in the Saturday's attack was

previously featured in a programme quite recently last year called The

Jihadis Next Door and had been reported to the authorities. This

does now look to be a pretty extreme case of hiding in plain sight. What

went wrong in your mind? I listened to what Mark Rowley said this

morning, the head of the counterterrorism command, and I

think I'm right in clear, saying he made it clear the Metropolitan

Police investigated this particular individual and obviously looked at

all the evidence, and they couldn't find any evidence that he was

involved in planning a terrorist attack of any description. I believe

they then placed him in a group of individuals who they keep, who they

are alert to, and keep an eye on, but it he hadn't been planning

anything. They did the investigation and I believe he set that out

clearly this morning. People find that difficult to take bearing in

mind what has happened and the fact he's been identified, when many of

our viewers saw him in this television documentary. It was in

2016 last year on Channel 4 News am aware he's shown quite clearly in

the company of people who would be deemed to be a threat to security.

You have got legislation, of course, in place that makes organisations,

proscribed organisations, being banned, or the glorification of

terrorism and offence. So should he have been a high up priority for the

security services? Look, I don't know what information the security

services had available to them. Generally they perform very well and

have foiled 18 plots over the last three years. One of the things the

Prime Minister set out after the terrible events of the weekend in

London is that we do need to do more to deal with people on extremism.

What, though? What concrete things could you do more than have put this

man, Khuram Butt, on a list high up priority for the security services?

One of the challenges here, this is why it's not an easy matter to deal

with, is my understanding is he hadn't committed any criminal

offences, and so the challenge for the law-enforcement bodies is how

you deal with people who you believe might be a threat but haven't yet

done anything. That is why we have the terrorism and orders which can

keep people under certain restrictions. They are barely used,

Mark Harper. They've been used seven times and the list says there are

23,000 people who are a potential risk. But you do have to have some

evidence to be able to go before a judge to put those in place, one of

the things the Prime Minister wants to look at. That is why we had in

our manifesto before any of these terrorist outrages this new

countering extremism panel that we want to set up to bring forward

those ideas. We have a range of powers that we can use to deal with

people, the Prime Minister when Home Secretary banned more hate preachers

from coming to the United Kingdom than any previous Home Secretary,

thus keeping people out of Great Britain people would try and inspire

the sort of terrorism and those are the sort of measures. There is no

single magic solution, you have to put in a range of measures,

strengthening sentences for people committing terrorism, looking at the

TPim regime and continuing to invest in counterterrorism. Let me put this

to Jack Dromey. It's true, isn't it, if Khuram Butt had not committed are

crime and if there was no evidence he would commit an attack, what

could have been done to apprehend a method of the attack?. Two issues,

one of powers and one of resources. On the issue of powers we put in

order when in government control orders which were much more

effective. The Conservative Party weekend of that, this TPims regime

that was hardly used and that was wrong. The second thing is crucially

resources, Cressida Dick yesterday was right to make the point, the new

commission of the Metropolitan Police. Simple reality the

Conservative Party and Theresa May in particular will not face up to is

that they have cut 20,000 police officers. We have 1000 fewer

firearms officers than in 2010. Lenny Pidgeley up on the issue of

powers because you refer to the last Labour government but we need to

look at the current Labour leadership. How many people do my

pieces of anti-terror legislation has Jeremy Corbyn supported? Since

Jeremy Corbyn has been leader can I give two examples? No, can you

answer the question on anti-terror legislation. Since 2000 which pieces

of terror legislation has Jeremy Corbyn supported? I will answer, he

has supported, Keir Starmer, myself and Andy Burnham together as the

front bench team took through, in partnership with the government, the

Investigatory Powers Bill, now the investigatory Powers act, giving to

the police significantly greater powers to monitor terrorist

suspects. The second example called the dark laws, we persuaded the

government to change the law so that in future if somebody was arrested

on suspicion of terrorism they didn't escape the country but

instead their passport is confiscated and they are kept under

surveillance. In terms of practical measures that is exactly the kind of

thing we have done. Except Jeremy Corbyn has proudly voted against 17

separate anti-terrorism laws over the course of his career. He called

for Hamas to be removed from the list are prescribed terror groups

and said Britain -- Brits shouldn't be banned from returning from

fighting with Isis. When people look at that record they will say under

Labour, and Corbyn nothing would have been done about Khuram Butt and

in fact in 2014, Jack Dromey, he said in the House of Commons I have

no support for Isas whatsoever and obviously that should apply to

somebody who has committed crimes, but we must bear in mind expressing

a political point of view is not in itself an offence. The commission of

the criminal act is clearly a different matter but expressing a

point of view, even unpalatable, is sometimes quite important in a

democracy, so he wouldn't have locked up the people involved in

this offence. I've given two practical examples of exactly what

he has supported us doing. He has led in doing since being leader in

2015. Crucially, this is what the public want right now, they want to

see more police officers back on the beat. They want to see the

rebuilding of neighbourhood policing, which Mark Rowley

mentioned earlier on, thick Head of Counter Terrorism has made

abundantly clear, is the eyes and ears of counterterrorism. They want

to see more firearms officers in the Metropolitan Police and nationwide.

I think what we have got to do is to focus right now on what is crucial,

great national unity to oppose and defeat terrorism, but then it is

about the powers necessary and resources to do it. Do you think

your front bench team need to know the powers and recommendations that

have been made by people within your team? The report commissioned by

Sadiq Khan, Toby Harris did a report into how to keep London safe. It had

a list of recommendations for the Metropolitan Police, and yet Diane

Abbott, the Shadow Home Secretary, couldn't recall those

recommendations. Do you think that inspires confidence? It was a good

report ranging from operational measures... Why couldn't she

remember it? Let me finish, on the other hand fully funding the

Metropolitan Police and Ambulance Service in London. I didn't see the

interview so I cannot comment on it. Let me say because that's the

question I am asking, because Diane Abbott wants to be Home Secretary,

she couldn't recall the report at all, it was done last year and was

commissioned by the Labour Mayor of London Sadiq Khan. As I say, do you

think her failure to recall that will inspire confidence and is that

the reason she's not going to take part in the Woman's Hour debate

today? Again, I can't comment about today because I understand Diane is

ill. Forgive me if I say this, right now is not the time to engage in the

wrong kind of party politics. Right now what we have got to focus on...

Are you not engaging in party politics? No our nation is under

threat from a uniquely awful brand of terrorism and we need a national

unity to defeat that and crucially that does mean both powers and

resources. Can I ask mark this question? Will you can see today

what Theresa May refused to concede yesterday? We have seen 20,000 fewer

police officers under her as Home Secretary and now Prime Minister,

1000 fewer armed officers. It looks like Jack is bidding for your job. I

read Toby Harris's report that Jo referred to about London's

preparedness. We will come back to the issue of numbers in the second

but answer the question first and then we will talk about numbers.

Toby Harris is a Labour peer. He wrote this report last October, and

he said over the five years that he had stopped being involved in London

policing and writing that report, he said that the resources available

meant that the response in London would have been better than that

from five years previously. What that says to me, and looking at the

professionalism and dedication of our police officers at the weekend,

is the Met does have the resources. We have protected the

counterterrorism budget. Jack, when you were on the home affairs team in

the automotive that -- the autumn, the police said they could deal with

a further 5%-10% cut in their budget. George Osborne who was the

Chancellor made it clear that not only would we not cut the police

budget but we would protect it and we have done since 2015 and we are

increasing funding for armed officers and have also protected the

counterterrorism budget and we are hiring more specialists to work in

our excellent security services, and I know well as a Gloucestershire

candidate about GCHQ at Cheltenham. Let Jack Dromey respond and also to

Lord Carlisle's point, the former review of intelligence legislation,

said it's not about more community police officers which is what the

Labour Party is calling He is a distinguished review of

that. Mark Rowley and then Commissioner Bernard Hogan Howe,

going back to the 2015 Mark, on top of the 25% cut in your first five

years of government, your government came within 36 hours of a further

32% cut. One of the things which was key in changing the mind of the

government, we work closely with the police to oppose that proposal, was

a letter from Mark Rowley, to the Home Secretary, in which he said

numbers were vital. Including neighbourhood policing because it is

absolutely essential to intelligence. It is what the public

wants to hear at the moment. They want to be reassured that there

aren't going to be, at the very least, further cuts. What do you say

to Sadiq Khan who says the force could lose as many as 12,000

officers, which would reduce its strength by 40%, making it harder to

tackle terrorism? I would look at our record since 2015. We've

protected the police Budget. When the then Chancellor protected that.

Not true. Andy Burnham was arguing that the police could manage with a

five to 10% cut. George Osborne made it clear that we were protecting the

police Budget. That was a decision by the then Chancellor, George

Osborne, and the then Home Secretary, Theresa May. Not true.

Hang on, Jack, please don't talk over. With increased the Budget for

counterterrorism, which is... Not true... He has dealt with the events

over the last couple of weeks. We've also invested the resources in our

security services. Which is coming back to your question, which is

monitoring these appalling individuals at making sure, as they

have done over the last three years, they can continue falling the plot

of those individuals which wish to do us harm. I have to finish. Sorry,

Jack, we have run out of time. Jonathan Hartley joined us, as well.

-- joins us. This morning the Conservatives have

outlined proposals for boosting The party, which intends to take

Britain out of the EU's single market and customs union,

says Brexit will allow Britain to seek bilateral trade deals

with "old friends and new allies" The plan, which is being outlined

today by Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson, would see the government

establish a global network of nine While we don't yet know the regions

where the commissioners will be based, the Foreign Secretary has

previously talked of striking trade deals with the likes of the US,

India and Australia. The nine commissioners will be part

of a new Board of Trade to help increase exports and attract foreign

investment in the UK. But not everybody is on board,

with the Liberal Democrats saying a UK Board of Trade -

an institution that has its roots in the 17th century -

is an "outdated" idea "probably Meanwhile, Labour says it's focused

on maintaining tariff-free access Speaking earlier today,

the Foreign Secretary said. In the biggest popular

mandate ever delivered in our history, the British people

voted to leave the European Union, and we voted to take back control

of our cash and our borders, and above all of our lawmaking

system. To put the British people back

in the driving seat of To give us the freedom once again

to negotiate our own trade deals, to take back control of our economic

destiny, and to build on the extraordinary traditions

of this country as a global Britain, trading nation that looks not

just our friends in Europe Jonathan Bartley is also here. Post

Brexit the Greens must want the UK to make the most of all of the

economic opportunities available. I presume you agree with much of what

Boris Johnson has said. The obvious way to make the most of those

economic benefit is to stay in the single market. No-brainer. But if we

are going to go down that route, I think we need to watch out for the

very weak bargaining position we will put ourselves in. Why is it

weak? Seeing Theresa May go cap in hand to Donald Trump. Rolling over

on raising climate change with the president on the phone after the

Paris agreement. She seems to be unable to carry any favour with the

president. We will be in a weak situation, going to the President,

what will that mean? Probably Trump will come to us and say you can have

a particular style of agreement which will have investor states,

which will open up our public services to potential competition

from American corporations. We will have a privatisation of our health

service and other public services. That is worrying. Except the

government says it isn't on the table, terms of opening up to's

public services. What is on the table? This idea of creating nine

new commissioner jobs. This may prove to be lovely in the future

when Brexit is being negotiated. But it is nothing more than window

dressing, isn't it? It's important. The important thing about the rest

of the world outside the EU, that is where the world is growing fastest

in where we need to take advantage of those trade opportunities. Why it

is important comes back to the discussion we just had. If you want

to have good national security, strong defences, strong policing,

you have got to have a strong economy in order to pay for all of

these things. As we leave the European Union, which was voted for

by the public strongly last year as the Foreign Secretary said, we need

to make the most of both the could deal with the EU, and those bricks

that negotiations will start 11 days after the election, which is why we

need a strong government led by Theresa May to land that the deal.

-- and those Brexit negotiations. We need to make opportunities from

other parts of the world. Let's talk about those. Jonathan Bartley raises

the issue of Theresa May being week in effect in her dealings with Tom

-- dealings with Trump, for example? Will private sector involvement in

public services happen here? The Prime Minister was asked this

question. She made it clear that our NHS is not for sale. She was not

weak. I was listening to Jonathan. She had a phone call with President

Trump last week. She made it clear she was disappointed by his decision

about the Paris climate change accord. She made it clear that

wasn't our policy. She will do her best to try and persuade the

Americans to come back to the table. Let's ask Jonathan Bartley. That was

one of his campaign promises he was delivering. The PM made it clear we

didn't support it. She made it clear, what more could she do? It

was a campaign policy. He is doing something many presidents fail to

do, keep their promises. When she went to see Trump, marched

hand-in-hand with him, she should have been raising this to the top.

And also to express a big disappointment because this is the

challenge coming on in the next 20 to 30 years. There won't be any

trade agreement if we don't have some change to climate -- if we

don't have some sort of commitment to climate change. What about the

tweets from Donald Trump to Sadiq Khan over the terrorist attack, and

how it has been dealt with subsequently? Should Theresa May be

on the phone to him, telling him to keep out of Britain's affairs?

First, the PM has made sure the government has been working with the

Mayor Blunden at the Met police. The Prime Minister has more than enough

to do keeping Britain safe. -- of the Mayor of London and the

Metropolitan Police. She has the priorities straight. She's focusing

on keeping Britain say. And if she is successful getting re-elected,

getting down to the Brexit negotiations, to make a success of

them. Don't you think this is a bigoted Islamophobic president, who

would single out Sadiq Khan, but would not go over Andy Burnham in

Manchester? If we are going to be able to influence the American

government. That's what we want to do. We want to maintain our strong

position in Nato. And persuade them to do the right thing. I don't think

throwing insults about is the right thing. That is not what I was doing.

The most sensible thing is that the PM to have a constructive

conversation. Make it clear she didn't agree with his decision on

the Paris climate change are caught. But continue having that I look to

persuade the American government to come back to the table. -- on the

Paris climate change accord. Let's move on to one of the other

countries in the world you perhaps would want to do a trade deal with

after Brexit. Particularly India. There is a potential problem there,

as well, because the Indians made it clear they would like more visas for

Indian workers as part of a trade deal, for example. We know Theresa

May is committed, if the Tories win the election, to reducing net

migration to tens of thousands. The Australians have said the same. How

are you going to manage that? Visas are always part of a conversation

with trade deals. We already have a large number of Indian students. But

they want more. We can have that discussion. Our net migration target

is a net migration target India is a very large market. I would expect,

if we were to conclude trade negotiations, you might well see

Indians coming to Britain, but you would also see big economic

opportunities for British companies working in India, and opportunities

for British business people actually going to work in India. In their

businesses. You have these negotiations. You will talk about

trade opportunities, migration, our fabulous offer for our excellent

university sector, which is second to none in the world, which the

government has always been supportive of. It seems to be a

strong global offer. There will have to be compromised in any negotiation

you have. The Green party manifesto says we will be actively campaigning

to safeguard jobs, uphold basic rights and put environment

protection at the heart of any future trade deals. A rather

protectionist approach, isn't it? Is it going to be practical when

compromises need to be made? Compromises are important. Just

going back to that point... Answer the question about the manifesto. We

have already talked about Sadiq Khan. Until Donald Trump apologises

to Sadiq Khan he shouldn't be allowed a state visit here. The

compromises this government are making, the example exporting arms

to Saudi Arabia, a huge export market, two thirds of our arms go to

the Middle East. Is this the kind of trade we want in the future? Is this

the leadership we will show the world? We shouldn't be making this

compromise. Compromises should be made, but not that kind. You

comfortable continuing trade relations with Saudi Arabia? Yes.

Saudi Arabia is a partner in combating extremism. Our

intelligence services receive valuable information from the Saudis

which enables us to take steps to help keep Britain safe, which I

think is important. Why has a report into funding streams, commissioned

by David Cameron as part of an agreement with the Lib Dems during

the coalition government, why hasn't it been published yet? I don't know.

I a backbench member. I haven't seen a report. Do you think it has been

suppressed? I don't think so, I genuinely don't know. I don't know

what is in the report and I don't know what is in it. Do you think it

should be published? Hang on, I'm going to say thank you and goodbye.

Thanks very much. The question for today is who have

society magazine, Tatler, named as their poshest candidate

to be Prime Minister? Is it a) Theresa May,

b) Tim Farron, c) Jeremy Corbyn, At the end of the show Jonathan

will give us the correct answer. Let's get a round-up

of all the other campaign Paul Nuttall, the Ukip leader, has

just finished giving a major speech in central London. I'm told it was

his final round of the campaign. He said Ukip ad-libbed the agenda on

immigration and Brexit. He also said there were 200 seats Ukip were not

contesting for in this election. He said of those only a handful would

be the ones where he would suggest people vote for the Labour Party.

One and a half days until polling day, he is not the only one out on

the campaign trail... Nick Clegg has also been giving

a speech this morning, describing Brexit talks as being

a bit like a circus. Negotiating Brexit is going

to be a tightrope act. The Lib Dem leader,

meanwhile, was on a Question Time special last night talking

about farming, sorry, security. What we have at the

moment, if you like, is an ever widening haystack

and we're looking for a needle. And the answer is not

put more hay into the haystack, it is to put more magnets

around the haystack we can actually find what's in there

in the first place. The SNP's leader Nicola Sturgeon,

who prepared for the same programme with a spot of aerobics,

was grilled on the timing of a I'm absolutely not proposing it now,

I accept that point. At the end of the process

when we know the terms of Brexit. Well, I don't know that because I'm

not in charge of the process. # You'll get accountability #

With Conservative delivery.# And is this the greatest election

video of the campaign? No, probably not, because apparently

Greg Knight does this Another Tory who is not happy

with the sound of music in her patch, the Christian

candidate Maria Caulfield, has accused her opponents

of being very offensive and preaching hate by dressing up

as nuns and singing, "How do you solve

a problem like Maria?" The secretive graffiti artist came

up with a rather off the wall idea of offering free prints of his work

to people who could prove The only problems, the police

wondered if it might be bribery and it's an offence to take a photo

of your ballot paper. Like many of his most popular works,

the idea has been taken down. Presumably to be sold

for millions at auction. There is just one campaign round-up

to go. We will be back tomorrow. Let's talk now to the Kevin Maguire

of the Mirror, and Rosa Prince, who has written a biography

of Theresa May. Please hold onto that umbrella.

Rosa, this was supposed to be the Brexit election and it has ended up

being the security -- about security because of the dreadful attacks in

Manchester and London. What effect has that had on the campaigns? It

has had a huge impact on Theresa May. This was supposed to be her

gliding through to victory. She called the election, thinking it

would give her the mandate to negotiate in Brussels. Instead it

has become about her leadership. She is under pressure about her record

as Home Secretary, which she has never had to defend. She has never

actually been at the forefront of an election campaign before. I think

she's finding it hard when the pressure is on. Everything has not

gone her way. What I learnt when I wrote the book about her, although

she's good at holding it together when things are going well, she get

rattled when she feels like she isn't in control. She likes to be in

charge, in control, and I think she is suffering. What is going to

happen, Kevin, in these final days? happen in the final days to polling

day? It's getting even noisier, each side will go for the other. We have

seen the attacks stepping up over security on Labour but in some ways

they are backfiring because the issue keeps coming back of the

20,000 fewer police officers, more than 1000 fewer firearms officers,

15,000 other staff in the police force, and community officers, they

are not there now. It is not such a strong card for the Conservatives as

they thought in the past. Labour's trying to keep pushing the fact that

austerity has run down public services and wants people to vote

for change. Somehow Labour has got to say if you want the change you

can trust in our change. Theresa May has talked a lot about strong and

stable leadership. Polling was pretty dreadful for Jeremy Corbyn at

the start of the campaign. The close scrutiny of an election campaign can

shine an unflattering light on the key players, count-out? That's

right. When she was elected everyone around her seemed to be falling

apart and she seemed like the only grown up there. She was anointed

overnight and suddenly became Prime Minister without really being tested

or challenged in the way most leaders are through a leadership

contest. And then I think most people would say she had a pretty

good first ten months, she seemed in charge and quite solid, and there

was no reason to believe that that would change, particularly when she

felt she was going up against Jeremy Corbyn who Conservative strategists,

presumably like most commentators felt, was one of the weaker

candidates Labour had put forward at a general election. It didn't quite

turn out like that. This election has put a pressure on Theresa May

and she hasn't coped with it that well, on the other hand Jeremy

Corbyn's two years of leadership have seen him often put under

pressure and perhaps he has got used to it and has stood up to it well.

Or is it, Kevin Maguire, that Jeremy Corbyn is seen on the campaign trail

in areas which are very strong for Labour already? He is appealing to

young people, who may not turn out to vote in terms of their track

record in the past. And he is shoring up Labour's support, piling

up the votes in seats they have already got, which doesn't mean he's

going to get any closer to winning on June the 9th. He didn't go to

strong Labour areas such as the north-east of England, if he didn't

go there he would be accused of neglecting them and taking them for

granted which is why he has to go there and that's why Theresa May

goes to conservative areas. She has been in the north-west, she's been

in areas you wouldn't normally see a Conservative leader, whereas Jeremy

Corbyn has not been too marginal seats. I reckon in every general

election the Conservative leader has gone to the north-west at some time.

You are quite right, though, that Jeremy Corbyn is relying on young

people to come out and vote for the elderly but neglect

the young. He's relying on them turning out. It may be a gamble that

fails but he's giving it a go. The story of this campaign, whatever the

result on Thursday, when we find out on Friday whoever is in Downing

Street, is during the campaign people have seen Jeremy Corbyn

uncut, not the caricature often presented to them, and more people

have liked him and he has risen, she has fallen, she looks frazzled, and

it's her leadership that is shot now. Both of you grab some shelter,

get out of the rain and enjoy the last few

For some people Brexit and immigration are key election issues.

Ukip has achieved what they wanted. I'm now turning to is conservative.

I want to be proud of my country again. -- I'm now turning to the

Conservatives. I've always voted for Labour. The only do I like his

Chelsea football club. There has been a Labour MP representing this

area for about 18 years. But the Conservatives claim came a close

second last time. -- the Conservatives came a close second

last time. I know it is a tough fight. Had he been critical of

Jeremy Corbyn in the past? You called for his resignation after the

EU referendum result. Why should people vote for you, and therefore

Jeremy Corbyn as a potential Prime Minister? Because I am a candidate

in Wrexham. I've been here for 16 years. There have been five leaders

of both the Conservative and Labour Party in that time. It is about who

represents Wrexham in parliament The Conservative

candidate's day job, he's a window cleaner, and he's

hoping to wipe away the Labour A couple of weeks

ago he welcomed the Prime Minister to Wrexham to launch

the Welsh Conservative manifesto. But the event was overshadowed by

Theresa May announcing amendments to It could have been anywhere

in Wales, she chose Wrexham. We've had a lot of positive

feedback on that. And as you say, on the day

there was talks of U-turns She didn't have to put that

in the manifesto, if you like, but she put it there to actually

tell people that we are addressing the serious issues

facing this country. Other parties are determined

for this not to be just a two-horse race between

the Conservatives and Labour. We're just coming out of a very

successful local council election where we've gained seats,

we've taken seats off Labour and when we are knocking on doors

talking to people locally they are telling us they are looking

for an alternative. They are very disillusioned

with the Labour Party, they are worried about what another

Tory government means I am a very committed Remainer

and I will remain a Remainer, and so it's very important to me

that I get the message across that I think a hard Brexit

will cause untold damage. Ukip came third in the 2015 general

election here with 5000 votes. But they're not fielding

a candidate this time round. Where their vote goes could play

a key role in the outcome here. We've been joined now from Cardiff

by our Political Editor Nick, the big backdrop has been the

possibility of significant Tory gains in Wales. How is that playing

out? That has been the case and we have seen a reflection of it today.

Theresa May is included South, constituency held by Labour, one of

the target seats for Conservatives in Wales. She has been to Wales

three times in the campaign, Wrexham, where you have heard from,

and also another target seat, so it has been a very offensive strategy

and campaign by the Conservatives in Wales, and I think broadly that has

certainly the mindset at the start of the campaign, the view of the

Leave voting Wales, the chunky Ukip vote, all playing potentially well

for the Conservatives in terms of the policy side of things. They came

out with a big crowd pleasing announcement to talk about

abolishing as a manifesto commitment the Severn tolls, the other parties

said they were in on that game but the Tories said they were the ones

who have done this and they talked about replacing EU aid for

economically deprived communities. I have to say, I spoke to a senior

Welsh Conservative this morning and the level of confidence that we may

have seen a few weeks ago isn't quite there as you would expect in

the light of some of the polling evidence we have seen recently. It

seems Labour's response in Wales has been to keep its distance from

Jeremy Corbyn and run a slightly more independent campaign. That's

right, it has or must been Machynlleth no-fly zone for Jeremy

Corbyn in Wales. We did see him at the start a few days after the snap

election was called. Particularly in the context of the infighting we

have seen within Labour at the UK level, they have stressed the Welsh

Labour element and they did it reasonably successfully in the

assembly campaign a year ago and up to a point, even though there were

some big scouts they lost in the council elections a few weeks ago,

again you could argue reasonably successful. But they have done that

in a general election. To be frank, with all been scratching our heads

thinking how on earth do you do that in Westminster campaign? The man who

has fronted Welsh Labour's campaign in Wales has been Carwyn Jones, he

is not a candidate, he is an Assembly Member. In a sense he has

no skin the game in this and yet he has been the one leading the

campaign. From their perspective they feel it gives a sense of

differentiation in Welsh identity, which has worked for them in the

past. The big question is whether it can work in a general election

context. Nick Servini, thank you. Let's return to the Greens because

when Caroline Lucas was last on the programme inmates were discussed

with her a ?250,000 donation the party was offered and the decision

for the green candidate not to stand in the Park by-election.

Andrew asked Caroline Lucas if she knew the name

of the proposed donor - let's just have a look

I know of the incident you are talking about but it happened after

the decision had already been taken to stand down and the money was

So any kind of implication that we were standing down in order

for money is absolutely wrong, categorically wrong.

It happened after the decision was taken and the

I didn't speak to them directly but that is my understanding.

As joint leader of the party if somebody

offers your party ?250,000 you don't know who it is?

I've heard the name but the point was it went through our

ethical checks, it didn't pass our ethical checks, the money was not

The candidate had already decided to stand aside, as

indeed the candidate has decided again because essentially what we

had in the Richmond by-election was the chance to oppose

Zac Goldsmith, who had been running a very racist

campaign in London and we wanted to try

to get somebody in there who was

Caroline Lucas. Jonathan Bartley, as you heard, your colleague was very

firm in saying that the candidate for the by-election had already

decided not to stand. That's correct, isn't it? That's correct.

But the timing looks slightly more suspect because you said there would

be a Green Party report into the incident published after the general

election and we have been given a copy of that report and in the

timeline of events it says your candidate withdrew on the very same

day the donation was offered which was the 1st of November 2016, so she

literally stood down just hours before you got the offer of the

donation? I'm not quite sure about the report, this report was produced

five or six weeks ago and leaked onto Guido and that report has been

categorically rubbished. I'm not sure which report you are talking

about will stop on the same day the candidate said she would not stand.

She said she would withdraw from the selection, also the same day that

this link report said the person contacting you offering ?250,000

made that offer. I can tell you categorically that when I found out

about the offer I know the candidate had already stood down. Do you know

the name? You don't know the proposed donor? I don't know. The

decision was made before the donation was refused. We have checks

and balances within the party, there is a committee who makes the

decisions, it's not within the gift of the leaders to accept or reject a

donation and there is no link. The nominations to be the Green party

candidate closed the day before you offer the money. So she decided to

stand one they had the next day she decided to withdraw that

application. That is a bit coincidental, isn't it? Why put your

name forward and change your mind the next day? I know her very well

and she was the only person going forward, she was the natural person

to be the candidate. Why did she change her mind in 24 hours? She

didn't, she made the decision quite a time before, she been thinking

about it for two or three or four weeks before because I'd have those

conversations with her, she was working through it and I was trying

to support her. The idea of a progressive Alliance is very strong.

You are saying this is not an accurate turn of events but if it is

it looks like sheep put her name forward, with it the next day within

hours of the offer of a donation. I can only tell you why she did it. I

can only take her word for it. I cannot see why you would carry on

pushing this line when it is absolutely clear she made the

decision days before and there is no link to the donation which we

refused. It is your report but it's not as clear as you would think.

Now it's time for the latest in our series of interviews

with the smaller parties standing in the general election on Thursday.

Established in 2006, the Animal Welfare Party is striving

to create a fairer society in which the needs

of people, animals and the environment are balanced.

They oppose any repeal of the fox hunting ban,

They want to phase out animal experimentation with binding

targets for reduction, combined with proper

They're promoting plant-based diets in order to improve human health,

and to protect the environment and global food security.

They propose ending live animal export, and reducing journey times

for animals travelling to slaughter within the UK And they want clear

labelling of products so consumers can make informed choices in line

with their own principles on the environment,

And now we're joined by the leader of the Animal Welfare

Welcome. Given the unfortunate circumstances with Ireland, the

current terrorism threats come immigration issues, social problems

in the UK, do we have the resources to focus on animal welfare in the

way you have outlined? -- given the unfortunate circumstances we are in.

We absolutely do. One of the key policies is about promoting healthy

plant -based diet. We say that is better for human health, and the

environment, and animal welfare. When we look at the environmental

impacts of a diet based highly on animal products, we cannot sustain

that long-term. We cannot sustain that is the world population is

growing from 7 billion, as it is now, and it is expected to be up to

10 billion in 2050. What is the difference between some of the

policies you are suggesting and what the Green party are suggesting? Why

don't you lobby the Green party more to support the things you are

suggesting? Absolutely. I'm so delighted to read the manifesto at

the Green party. They produced a separate manifesto on animal

welfare. What is the point of your party? I do identify with in that

manifesto some of the policies that were in our 2050 manifesto. I don't

know if that is a coincidence. I would say that since we began ten

years ago we called ourselves a testimonial party. That means we

speak to the highest possible policies they can be the animal

welfare. We make them available to all parties. We are happy when we

see them being picked up by other parties. Have you read Vanessa's

manifesto and suggestions and brought them into yours? I don't

write the manifesto. I haven't read it, with respect. I'm sure they are

amazing. We produce our own animal welfare manifesto. I think there is

a role, as you say, to work with other parties like the Women's

Equality Party, we have been working with them. We want more choice in

our electoral system. This is another case for why we should be

looking to reform the system, have a fairer system, because if people

want to put animal welfare on the agenda they can vote for us or your

party. Let's talk about the repeal of the fox hunt ban. What are the

thoughts about Theresa May giving MPs a vote on it? I think it is

appalling. Professor Andrew Knight, a professor of animal welfare, an

expert in this field, we've been looking at this issue, and there is

absolutely no evidence for bringing back fox hunting and saying this is

in some way an acceptable act to deal with the fox population. Which,

incidentally, we don't need to deal with because fox populations are

self managing. You talked about diet, being healthy, a growing

population, would you prefer if everybody was a vegetarian? We don't

make statements like that. We call for a 50% reduction in meat

consumption from our current levels. We say that is necessary for the

future survival of the planet. We have a human population of come here

in the UK, of 65 million. But we are killing 1 billion animals per year.

When we look at how we feed those. It is a staggering statistic. 50% of

all of the corn we are growing as being fed to animals. 50% of all the

water used in the world is for animal farming. Yet we have people

who are starving, people who don't have clean water to drink. Thanks

very much. One of the Green Party's big ideas

is a plan to move to a standard four-day working week -

and a three-day weekend. While workers might cheer at that

prospect, would the country's businesses and public services be

able to cope? Adam's been putting the idea

to the test, in Bristol. We're in the constituency

of Bristol West which is one of the Greens' top target seats

and we're testing one of their key policies,

the introduction of a three-day So, do people think it's

a good idea or a bad idea? Because more time for

students to get drunk. Well, let's hope no one watches this

on national television. I would love to have a three-day

weekend but I'm thinking, does that mean a lot of my money's

going to get cut because of it? Exactly, you know, money's money

at the end of the day. Or it's going to be called

American sweetheart. Wouldn't you like

an extra day to be an artist rather than

being at the office? How would you feel about having one

less day of work a week? Can you cycle past

and get it in as you No, don't fall off, don't

fall off, I'll do it. You look pretty relaxed

as it is to be fair. Mental health is very

important and, you know, more relaxing is what we

all need, I think. I'd have to have my

husband home to much. Total load of bloody rubbish

because if you don't work you're not You don't contribute to the economy

the country's going to go bust. You are walking around

the town centre A three-day weekend,

good idea or a bad idea? What would you do

with your extra freedom? Do you think that's

the Green party's This is my boss and I work six days

for him at the moment. You're going to work

seven days a week? It would be fun but it's

just not practical. Well, there we go, a big majority

think an extra long weekend would be Is that a big enough ice cream?

Explain how your policy would work. Would we all have to take a pay cut?

Four-day working week. We were flagging it up. We have to start

thinking on these terms. 100 years ago, Henry Ford said let's have a

five-day working week, everybody said you can't, but that is now the

standard. There is this idea of automation where there will be large

amount of job losses. We get stressed. We work some of the

longest hours in Europe. We take some of the longest six pay which is

a huge burden on the NHS and welfare. Would people's wages be

cut? We would have something phased in. We need to have a conversation

about it. People's wages shouldn't be cut. Businesses would take a

conversation about it. People's wages shouldn't be cut. Businesses

would take the hit? Not necessarily because government can do things.

You can provide contributions to make it easier for companies that

want to employ more workers at a more productive rate. It works for

businesses. We know that. They are more productive. Flexible and

part-time work is different. A lot of people say that even if they have

a part-time job you end up working five days, but just working them in

four, you would be more stressed. I don't think so. Some people in the

package saying if you are unemployed you don't contribute. But there is a

huge unpaid economy of, for example, care, which is important realise. If

we look at France. The issue of the 35 hour working week. It has been

seen as detrimental to the economy. I don't know about the state of

people's mental health. But that is what Emmanuel Macron wants to get

rid of it. We need to learn from the examples of France. We are talking

about something different, something to be phased in over time. Something

we would do as a matter of consideration, rather than

introducing it overnight, which is what the French did. You won't ever

get in government. Very happy to concede. Apologies, I would just be

honest. When we flagged this in our conference speech a few months ago,

suddenly it got a load of attraction. I was out canvassing and

people were talking about it, they were raising it. We all like the

idea. But what about Labour's offer of more bank holidays? That would be

one way of phrasing it in. Let's take a step back. It is about who

the economy is for. Few people are asking that question. We get these

bland numbers, get the economy growing 1%, 2%, get this trade deal,

but we are not asking who get benefits. If these policies are

gaining traction, or this particular one to have a four-day working week,

then why are you not doing better in the polls. You are not doing as well

as you were in 2015. People are probably thinking they will vote for

the Labour Party. We know this is a strange election where people are

voting tactically like never before. And you have encouraged it. We have

worked with other parties, saying let's move beyond tribalism. In 2015

lots of people voted Ukip and it took the country in one direction.

They were effectively running the government with no MPs. You want to

take the country in another direction, you can vote Green.

You're hoping for more than one MP, presumably? I would love that.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

The question was who have society magazine, Tatler,

named as the poshest candidate to be Prime Minister?

Is it a) Theresa May, b) Tim Farron,

c) Jeremy Corbyn, or, d) Caroline Lucas?

Surely not. Because he has a brother called Piers and he has a son called

Seb. So apparently that is why. Thanks to Jonathan Bartley

and all my guests. In just over an hour's time

Adam Fleming will be popping up on the BBC Politics Facebook

page with his Election And, Andrew will be here at noon

tomorrow with more Daily Politics.