06/06/2017 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


The Mayor of London, Labour's Sadiq Khan,


warns cuts to the Met Police could make it harder


to foil terror attacks, the Conservatives say police numbers


"remain high", as the parties argue over how best to protect


The Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson says Britain's destiny is to be


friends and partners with the rest of the world, as he sets out


the Conservatives' plan for new trade deals after Brexit.


Could the Conservatives make gains in Wales,


at the expense of Labour, in the election on Thursday?


We're on the campaign trail in Wrexham.


Imagine we were halfway through the working week already.


We've brought the mood box to Bristol to test out


the Greens' policy of a three-day weekend for everyone.


I would love to have a three-day weekend but I'm


thinking does that mean a lot of my money's going


All that in the next hour and with us for the whole


of the programme today is Jonathan Bartley,


But first, the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has warned


that the Metropolitan Police is facing the loss of thousands


of front line officers, under Conservative spending plans.


Mr Khan says Scotland Yard could lose up to 40% of its constables -


making it harder to prevent future terror attacks.


Under a renewed Theresa May government, as a consequence of the


cuts to our policing budget, we'd have fewer police officers,


and all the experts tell me, by the way, that one of the


ways we counter terrorism is by fantastic police in the community.


Members of the community of all backgrounds report intelligence to


police officers in the community, they pass it on and it helps keep


There's no doubt fewer police officers means we're in more danger.


The Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson rejected


the Labour criticism, defending the Government's record


on spending on the police and security services.


I have to say I think first of all that is wrong.


Police numbers in London have remained high.


And, secondly, we protected police budgets in 2015 and the Labour


Party, as I recall, actually wanted to cut them by 10%.


But all that argument detracts from the


responsibility of these scumbags for what they have done and we should


Boris Johnson. In the last hour of the Metropolitan Police have said


they believed the third London Bridge attacker was Youssef Zaghba,


a Moroccan Italian man who was not a subject of interest to the police or


MI5. We're joined now by our Assistant


Political Editor, Norman Smith. How damaging is this continuing row


over numbers of the police and security services and resources in


general in terms of the Government? I think it is damaging because it


just stops to reason me getting onto the agenda she wanted to focus on in


the last days of the campaign. She wants it to be about Brexit and yet


again and again when she is out and about what she is challenged over is


this reduction in police numbers, and why it matters so much is


because it is very personal to Theresa May. She was Home Secretary,


she provided over this cut in police numbers of around 20,000. The other


thing that strikes me about it is it is a very simple concept for voters


to grasp, it's not one of these much more difficult issues like the


social care cap and the U-turn over that. A cut of police numbers is a


very simple idea to get hold of. The last thing that I think compounds


the difficulties Theresa May faces is the reluctance to openly concede


that, yes, she has presided over a significant cut in police numbers.


We saw that to some extent with the social care row with Theresa May


unwilling to admit there had been a U-turn and that grates with voters


and they find it exasperating that Theresa May is unable to concede


what is a fact, police numbers have been cut. What about full Labour? Is


very difficulty on the doorstep for Labour candidates if there is an


impression that Jeremy Corbyn is viewed as soft on terror because he


hadn't voted in favour of numerous counts of terrorism legislation?


That clearly is the hope and calculation of the Conservatives,


who today have tried to sort of shift the focus onto Mr Corbyn and


Diane Abbott's own record and their opposition to previous anti-terror


legislation. I think it's harder for them frankly


when you have individuals like Sadiq Khan coming out with this very stark


suggestion that it's not just historic police cuts at the Met has


to face ongoing police cuts, he says of around 400 million or more, which


he says could mean a reduction of between 10%-40% of the total police


forceful stop it is harder to be so dismissive of a figure like Sadiq


Khan, in part because Theresa May and others have come out and


publicly praised him for his handling in the aftermath of the


terror attack. Norman Smith, thank you.


We've been joined from Bristol by the former


Conservative Chief Whip, Mark Harper, and from Birmingham


Welcome to both of you gentlemen. Mark Harper, first of all. We have


seen one of the terrorists involved in the Saturday's attack was


previously featured in a programme quite recently last year called The


Jihadis Next Door and had been reported to the authorities. This


does now look to be a pretty extreme case of hiding in plain sight. What


went wrong in your mind? I listened to what Mark Rowley said this


morning, the head of the counterterrorism command, and I


think I'm right in clear, saying he made it clear the Metropolitan


Police investigated this particular individual and obviously looked at


all the evidence, and they couldn't find any evidence that he was


involved in planning a terrorist attack of any description. I believe


they then placed him in a group of individuals who they keep, who they


are alert to, and keep an eye on, but it he hadn't been planning


anything. They did the investigation and I believe he set that out


clearly this morning. People find that difficult to take bearing in


mind what has happened and the fact he's been identified, when many of


our viewers saw him in this television documentary. It was in


2016 last year on Channel 4 News am aware he's shown quite clearly in


the company of people who would be deemed to be a threat to security.


You have got legislation, of course, in place that makes organisations,


proscribed organisations, being banned, or the glorification of


terrorism and offence. So should he have been a high up priority for the


security services? Look, I don't know what information the security


services had available to them. Generally they perform very well and


have foiled 18 plots over the last three years. One of the things the


Prime Minister set out after the terrible events of the weekend in


London is that we do need to do more to deal with people on extremism.


What, though? What concrete things could you do more than have put this


man, Khuram Butt, on a list high up priority for the security services?


One of the challenges here, this is why it's not an easy matter to deal


with, is my understanding is he hadn't committed any criminal


offences, and so the challenge for the law-enforcement bodies is how


you deal with people who you believe might be a threat but haven't yet


done anything. That is why we have the terrorism and orders which can


keep people under certain restrictions. They are barely used,


Mark Harper. They've been used seven times and the list says there are


23,000 people who are a potential risk. But you do have to have some


evidence to be able to go before a judge to put those in place, one of


the things the Prime Minister wants to look at. That is why we had in


our manifesto before any of these terrorist outrages this new


countering extremism panel that we want to set up to bring forward


those ideas. We have a range of powers that we can use to deal with


people, the Prime Minister when Home Secretary banned more hate preachers


from coming to the United Kingdom than any previous Home Secretary,


thus keeping people out of Great Britain people would try and inspire


the sort of terrorism and those are the sort of measures. There is no


single magic solution, you have to put in a range of measures,


strengthening sentences for people committing terrorism, looking at the


TPim regime and continuing to invest in counterterrorism. Let me put this


to Jack Dromey. It's true, isn't it, if Khuram Butt had not committed are


crime and if there was no evidence he would commit an attack, what


could have been done to apprehend a method of the attack?. Two issues,


one of powers and one of resources. On the issue of powers we put in


order when in government control orders which were much more


effective. The Conservative Party weekend of that, this TPims regime


that was hardly used and that was wrong. The second thing is crucially


resources, Cressida Dick yesterday was right to make the point, the new


commission of the Metropolitan Police. Simple reality the


Conservative Party and Theresa May in particular will not face up to is


that they have cut 20,000 police officers. We have 1000 fewer


firearms officers than in 2010. Lenny Pidgeley up on the issue of


powers because you refer to the last Labour government but we need to


look at the current Labour leadership. How many people do my


pieces of anti-terror legislation has Jeremy Corbyn supported? Since


Jeremy Corbyn has been leader can I give two examples? No, can you


answer the question on anti-terror legislation. Since 2000 which pieces


of terror legislation has Jeremy Corbyn supported? I will answer, he


has supported, Keir Starmer, myself and Andy Burnham together as the


front bench team took through, in partnership with the government, the


Investigatory Powers Bill, now the investigatory Powers act, giving to


the police significantly greater powers to monitor terrorist


suspects. The second example called the dark laws, we persuaded the


government to change the law so that in future if somebody was arrested


on suspicion of terrorism they didn't escape the country but


instead their passport is confiscated and they are kept under


surveillance. In terms of practical measures that is exactly the kind of


thing we have done. Except Jeremy Corbyn has proudly voted against 17


separate anti-terrorism laws over the course of his career. He called


for Hamas to be removed from the list are prescribed terror groups


and said Britain -- Brits shouldn't be banned from returning from


fighting with Isis. When people look at that record they will say under


Labour, and Corbyn nothing would have been done about Khuram Butt and


in fact in 2014, Jack Dromey, he said in the House of Commons I have


no support for Isas whatsoever and obviously that should apply to


somebody who has committed crimes, but we must bear in mind expressing


a political point of view is not in itself an offence. The commission of


the criminal act is clearly a different matter but expressing a


point of view, even unpalatable, is sometimes quite important in a


democracy, so he wouldn't have locked up the people involved in


this offence. I've given two practical examples of exactly what


he has supported us doing. He has led in doing since being leader in


2015. Crucially, this is what the public want right now, they want to


see more police officers back on the beat. They want to see the


rebuilding of neighbourhood policing, which Mark Rowley


mentioned earlier on, thick Head of Counter Terrorism has made


abundantly clear, is the eyes and ears of counterterrorism. They want


to see more firearms officers in the Metropolitan Police and nationwide.


I think what we have got to do is to focus right now on what is crucial,


great national unity to oppose and defeat terrorism, but then it is


about the powers necessary and resources to do it. Do you think


your front bench team need to know the powers and recommendations that


have been made by people within your team? The report commissioned by


Sadiq Khan, Toby Harris did a report into how to keep London safe. It had


a list of recommendations for the Metropolitan Police, and yet Diane


Abbott, the Shadow Home Secretary, couldn't recall those


recommendations. Do you think that inspires confidence? It was a good


report ranging from operational measures... Why couldn't she


remember it? Let me finish, on the other hand fully funding the


Metropolitan Police and Ambulance Service in London. I didn't see the


interview so I cannot comment on it. Let me say because that's the


question I am asking, because Diane Abbott wants to be Home Secretary,


she couldn't recall the report at all, it was done last year and was


commissioned by the Labour Mayor of London Sadiq Khan. As I say, do you


think her failure to recall that will inspire confidence and is that


the reason she's not going to take part in the Woman's Hour debate


today? Again, I can't comment about today because I understand Diane is


ill. Forgive me if I say this, right now is not the time to engage in the


wrong kind of party politics. Right now what we have got to focus on...


Are you not engaging in party politics? No our nation is under


threat from a uniquely awful brand of terrorism and we need a national


unity to defeat that and crucially that does mean both powers and


resources. Can I ask mark this question? Will you can see today


what Theresa May refused to concede yesterday? We have seen 20,000 fewer


police officers under her as Home Secretary and now Prime Minister,


1000 fewer armed officers. It looks like Jack is bidding for your job. I


read Toby Harris's report that Jo referred to about London's


preparedness. We will come back to the issue of numbers in the second


but answer the question first and then we will talk about numbers.


Toby Harris is a Labour peer. He wrote this report last October, and


he said over the five years that he had stopped being involved in London


policing and writing that report, he said that the resources available


meant that the response in London would have been better than that


from five years previously. What that says to me, and looking at the


professionalism and dedication of our police officers at the weekend,


is the Met does have the resources. We have protected the


counterterrorism budget. Jack, when you were on the home affairs team in


the automotive that -- the autumn, the police said they could deal with


a further 5%-10% cut in their budget. George Osborne who was the


Chancellor made it clear that not only would we not cut the police


budget but we would protect it and we have done since 2015 and we are


increasing funding for armed officers and have also protected the


counterterrorism budget and we are hiring more specialists to work in


our excellent security services, and I know well as a Gloucestershire


candidate about GCHQ at Cheltenham. Let Jack Dromey respond and also to


Lord Carlisle's point, the former review of intelligence legislation,


said it's not about more community police officers which is what the


Labour Party is calling He is a distinguished review of


that. Mark Rowley and then Commissioner Bernard Hogan Howe,


going back to the 2015 Mark, on top of the 25% cut in your first five


years of government, your government came within 36 hours of a further


32% cut. One of the things which was key in changing the mind of the


government, we work closely with the police to oppose that proposal, was


a letter from Mark Rowley, to the Home Secretary, in which he said


numbers were vital. Including neighbourhood policing because it is


absolutely essential to intelligence. It is what the public


wants to hear at the moment. They want to be reassured that there


aren't going to be, at the very least, further cuts. What do you say


to Sadiq Khan who says the force could lose as many as 12,000


officers, which would reduce its strength by 40%, making it harder to


tackle terrorism? I would look at our record since 2015. We've


protected the police Budget. When the then Chancellor protected that.


Not true. Andy Burnham was arguing that the police could manage with a


five to 10% cut. George Osborne made it clear that we were protecting the


police Budget. That was a decision by the then Chancellor, George


Osborne, and the then Home Secretary, Theresa May. Not true.


Hang on, Jack, please don't talk over. With increased the Budget for


counterterrorism, which is... Not true... He has dealt with the events


over the last couple of weeks. We've also invested the resources in our


security services. Which is coming back to your question, which is


monitoring these appalling individuals at making sure, as they


have done over the last three years, they can continue falling the plot


of those individuals which wish to do us harm. I have to finish. Sorry,


Jack, we have run out of time. Jonathan Hartley joined us, as well.


-- joins us. This morning the Conservatives have


outlined proposals for boosting The party, which intends to take


Britain out of the EU's single market and customs union,


says Brexit will allow Britain to seek bilateral trade deals


with "old friends and new allies" The plan, which is being outlined


today by Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson, would see the government


establish a global network of nine While we don't yet know the regions


where the commissioners will be based, the Foreign Secretary has


previously talked of striking trade deals with the likes of the US,


India and Australia. The nine commissioners will be part


of a new Board of Trade to help increase exports and attract foreign


investment in the UK. But not everybody is on board,


with the Liberal Democrats saying a UK Board of Trade -


an institution that has its roots in the 17th century -


is an "outdated" idea "probably Meanwhile, Labour says it's focused


on maintaining tariff-free access Speaking earlier today,


the Foreign Secretary said. In the biggest popular


mandate ever delivered in our history, the British people


voted to leave the European Union, and we voted to take back control


of our cash and our borders, and above all of our lawmaking


system. To put the British people back


in the driving seat of To give us the freedom once again


to negotiate our own trade deals, to take back control of our economic


destiny, and to build on the extraordinary traditions


of this country as a global Britain, trading nation that looks not


just our friends in Europe Jonathan Bartley is also here. Post


Brexit the Greens must want the UK to make the most of all of the


economic opportunities available. I presume you agree with much of what


Boris Johnson has said. The obvious way to make the most of those


economic benefit is to stay in the single market. No-brainer. But if we


are going to go down that route, I think we need to watch out for the


very weak bargaining position we will put ourselves in. Why is it


weak? Seeing Theresa May go cap in hand to Donald Trump. Rolling over


on raising climate change with the president on the phone after the


Paris agreement. She seems to be unable to carry any favour with the


president. We will be in a weak situation, going to the President,


what will that mean? Probably Trump will come to us and say you can have


a particular style of agreement which will have investor states,


which will open up our public services to potential competition


from American corporations. We will have a privatisation of our health


service and other public services. That is worrying. Except the


government says it isn't on the table, terms of opening up to's


public services. What is on the table? This idea of creating nine


new commissioner jobs. This may prove to be lovely in the future


when Brexit is being negotiated. But it is nothing more than window


dressing, isn't it? It's important. The important thing about the rest


of the world outside the EU, that is where the world is growing fastest


in where we need to take advantage of those trade opportunities. Why it


is important comes back to the discussion we just had. If you want


to have good national security, strong defences, strong policing,


you have got to have a strong economy in order to pay for all of


these things. As we leave the European Union, which was voted for


by the public strongly last year as the Foreign Secretary said, we need


to make the most of both the could deal with the EU, and those bricks


that negotiations will start 11 days after the election, which is why we


need a strong government led by Theresa May to land that the deal.


-- and those Brexit negotiations. We need to make opportunities from


other parts of the world. Let's talk about those. Jonathan Bartley raises


the issue of Theresa May being week in effect in her dealings with Tom


-- dealings with Trump, for example? Will private sector involvement in


public services happen here? The Prime Minister was asked this


question. She made it clear that our NHS is not for sale. She was not


weak. I was listening to Jonathan. She had a phone call with President


Trump last week. She made it clear she was disappointed by his decision


about the Paris climate change accord. She made it clear that


wasn't our policy. She will do her best to try and persuade the


Americans to come back to the table. Let's ask Jonathan Bartley. That was


one of his campaign promises he was delivering. The PM made it clear we


didn't support it. She made it clear, what more could she do? It


was a campaign policy. He is doing something many presidents fail to


do, keep their promises. When she went to see Trump, marched


hand-in-hand with him, she should have been raising this to the top.


And also to express a big disappointment because this is the


challenge coming on in the next 20 to 30 years. There won't be any


trade agreement if we don't have some change to climate -- if we


don't have some sort of commitment to climate change. What about the


tweets from Donald Trump to Sadiq Khan over the terrorist attack, and


how it has been dealt with subsequently? Should Theresa May be


on the phone to him, telling him to keep out of Britain's affairs?


First, the PM has made sure the government has been working with the


Mayor Blunden at the Met police. The Prime Minister has more than enough


to do keeping Britain safe. -- of the Mayor of London and the


Metropolitan Police. She has the priorities straight. She's focusing


on keeping Britain say. And if she is successful getting re-elected,


getting down to the Brexit negotiations, to make a success of


them. Don't you think this is a bigoted Islamophobic president, who


would single out Sadiq Khan, but would not go over Andy Burnham in


Manchester? If we are going to be able to influence the American


government. That's what we want to do. We want to maintain our strong


position in Nato. And persuade them to do the right thing. I don't think


throwing insults about is the right thing. That is not what I was doing.


The most sensible thing is that the PM to have a constructive


conversation. Make it clear she didn't agree with his decision on


the Paris climate change are caught. But continue having that I look to


persuade the American government to come back to the table. -- on the


Paris climate change accord. Let's move on to one of the other


countries in the world you perhaps would want to do a trade deal with


after Brexit. Particularly India. There is a potential problem there,


as well, because the Indians made it clear they would like more visas for


Indian workers as part of a trade deal, for example. We know Theresa


May is committed, if the Tories win the election, to reducing net


migration to tens of thousands. The Australians have said the same. How


are you going to manage that? Visas are always part of a conversation


with trade deals. We already have a large number of Indian students. But


they want more. We can have that discussion. Our net migration target


is a net migration target India is a very large market. I would expect,


if we were to conclude trade negotiations, you might well see


Indians coming to Britain, but you would also see big economic


opportunities for British companies working in India, and opportunities


for British business people actually going to work in India. In their


businesses. You have these negotiations. You will talk about


trade opportunities, migration, our fabulous offer for our excellent


university sector, which is second to none in the world, which the


government has always been supportive of. It seems to be a


strong global offer. There will have to be compromised in any negotiation


you have. The Green party manifesto says we will be actively campaigning


to safeguard jobs, uphold basic rights and put environment


protection at the heart of any future trade deals. A rather


protectionist approach, isn't it? Is it going to be practical when


compromises need to be made? Compromises are important. Just


going back to that point... Answer the question about the manifesto. We


have already talked about Sadiq Khan. Until Donald Trump apologises


to Sadiq Khan he shouldn't be allowed a state visit here. The


compromises this government are making, the example exporting arms


to Saudi Arabia, a huge export market, two thirds of our arms go to


the Middle East. Is this the kind of trade we want in the future? Is this


the leadership we will show the world? We shouldn't be making this


compromise. Compromises should be made, but not that kind. You


comfortable continuing trade relations with Saudi Arabia? Yes.


Saudi Arabia is a partner in combating extremism. Our


intelligence services receive valuable information from the Saudis


which enables us to take steps to help keep Britain safe, which I


think is important. Why has a report into funding streams, commissioned


by David Cameron as part of an agreement with the Lib Dems during


the coalition government, why hasn't it been published yet? I don't know.


I a backbench member. I haven't seen a report. Do you think it has been


suppressed? I don't think so, I genuinely don't know. I don't know


what is in the report and I don't know what is in it. Do you think it


should be published? Hang on, I'm going to say thank you and goodbye.


Thanks very much. The question for today is who have


society magazine, Tatler, named as their poshest candidate


to be Prime Minister? Is it a) Theresa May,


b) Tim Farron, c) Jeremy Corbyn, At the end of the show Jonathan


will give us the correct answer. Let's get a round-up


of all the other campaign Paul Nuttall, the Ukip leader, has


just finished giving a major speech in central London. I'm told it was


his final round of the campaign. He said Ukip ad-libbed the agenda on


immigration and Brexit. He also said there were 200 seats Ukip were not


contesting for in this election. He said of those only a handful would


be the ones where he would suggest people vote for the Labour Party.


One and a half days until polling day, he is not the only one out on


the campaign trail... Nick Clegg has also been giving


a speech this morning, describing Brexit talks as being


a bit like a circus. Negotiating Brexit is going


to be a tightrope act. The Lib Dem leader,


meanwhile, was on a Question Time special last night talking


about farming, sorry, security. What we have at the


moment, if you like, is an ever widening haystack


and we're looking for a needle. And the answer is not


put more hay into the haystack, it is to put more magnets


around the haystack we can actually find what's in there


in the first place. The SNP's leader Nicola Sturgeon,


who prepared for the same programme with a spot of aerobics,


was grilled on the timing of a I'm absolutely not proposing it now,


I accept that point. At the end of the process


when we know the terms of Brexit. Well, I don't know that because I'm


not in charge of the process. # You'll get accountability #


With Conservative delivery.# And is this the greatest election


video of the campaign? No, probably not, because apparently


Greg Knight does this Another Tory who is not happy


with the sound of music in her patch, the Christian


candidate Maria Caulfield, has accused her opponents


of being very offensive and preaching hate by dressing up


as nuns and singing, "How do you solve


a problem like Maria?" The secretive graffiti artist came


up with a rather off the wall idea of offering free prints of his work


to people who could prove The only problems, the police


wondered if it might be bribery and it's an offence to take a photo


of your ballot paper. Like many of his most popular works,


the idea has been taken down. Presumably to be sold


for millions at auction. There is just one campaign round-up


to go. We will be back tomorrow. Let's talk now to the Kevin Maguire


of the Mirror, and Rosa Prince, who has written a biography


of Theresa May. Please hold onto that umbrella.


Rosa, this was supposed to be the Brexit election and it has ended up


being the security -- about security because of the dreadful attacks in


Manchester and London. What effect has that had on the campaigns? It


has had a huge impact on Theresa May. This was supposed to be her


gliding through to victory. She called the election, thinking it


would give her the mandate to negotiate in Brussels. Instead it


has become about her leadership. She is under pressure about her record


as Home Secretary, which she has never had to defend. She has never


actually been at the forefront of an election campaign before. I think


she's finding it hard when the pressure is on. Everything has not


gone her way. What I learnt when I wrote the book about her, although


she's good at holding it together when things are going well, she get


rattled when she feels like she isn't in control. She likes to be in


charge, in control, and I think she is suffering. What is going to


happen, Kevin, in these final days? happen in the final days to polling


day? It's getting even noisier, each side will go for the other. We have


seen the attacks stepping up over security on Labour but in some ways


they are backfiring because the issue keeps coming back of the


20,000 fewer police officers, more than 1000 fewer firearms officers,


15,000 other staff in the police force, and community officers, they


are not there now. It is not such a strong card for the Conservatives as


they thought in the past. Labour's trying to keep pushing the fact that


austerity has run down public services and wants people to vote


for change. Somehow Labour has got to say if you want the change you


can trust in our change. Theresa May has talked a lot about strong and


stable leadership. Polling was pretty dreadful for Jeremy Corbyn at


the start of the campaign. The close scrutiny of an election campaign can


shine an unflattering light on the key players, count-out? That's


right. When she was elected everyone around her seemed to be falling


apart and she seemed like the only grown up there. She was anointed


overnight and suddenly became Prime Minister without really being tested


or challenged in the way most leaders are through a leadership


contest. And then I think most people would say she had a pretty


good first ten months, she seemed in charge and quite solid, and there


was no reason to believe that that would change, particularly when she


felt she was going up against Jeremy Corbyn who Conservative strategists,


presumably like most commentators felt, was one of the weaker


candidates Labour had put forward at a general election. It didn't quite


turn out like that. This election has put a pressure on Theresa May


and she hasn't coped with it that well, on the other hand Jeremy


Corbyn's two years of leadership have seen him often put under


pressure and perhaps he has got used to it and has stood up to it well.


Or is it, Kevin Maguire, that Jeremy Corbyn is seen on the campaign trail


in areas which are very strong for Labour already? He is appealing to


young people, who may not turn out to vote in terms of their track


record in the past. And he is shoring up Labour's support, piling


up the votes in seats they have already got, which doesn't mean he's


going to get any closer to winning on June the 9th. He didn't go to


strong Labour areas such as the north-east of England, if he didn't


go there he would be accused of neglecting them and taking them for


granted which is why he has to go there and that's why Theresa May


goes to conservative areas. She has been in the north-west, she's been


in areas you wouldn't normally see a Conservative leader, whereas Jeremy


Corbyn has not been too marginal seats. I reckon in every general


election the Conservative leader has gone to the north-west at some time.


You are quite right, though, that Jeremy Corbyn is relying on young


people to come out and vote for the elderly but neglect


the young. He's relying on them turning out. It may be a gamble that


fails but he's giving it a go. The story of this campaign, whatever the


result on Thursday, when we find out on Friday whoever is in Downing


Street, is during the campaign people have seen Jeremy Corbyn


uncut, not the caricature often presented to them, and more people


have liked him and he has risen, she has fallen, she looks frazzled, and


it's her leadership that is shot now. Both of you grab some shelter,


get out of the rain and enjoy the last few


For some people Brexit and immigration are key election issues.


Ukip has achieved what they wanted. I'm now turning to is conservative.


I want to be proud of my country again. -- I'm now turning to the


Conservatives. I've always voted for Labour. The only do I like his


Chelsea football club. There has been a Labour MP representing this


area for about 18 years. But the Conservatives claim came a close


second last time. -- the Conservatives came a close second


last time. I know it is a tough fight. Had he been critical of


Jeremy Corbyn in the past? You called for his resignation after the


EU referendum result. Why should people vote for you, and therefore


Jeremy Corbyn as a potential Prime Minister? Because I am a candidate


in Wrexham. I've been here for 16 years. There have been five leaders


of both the Conservative and Labour Party in that time. It is about who


represents Wrexham in parliament The Conservative


candidate's day job, he's a window cleaner, and he's


hoping to wipe away the Labour A couple of weeks


ago he welcomed the Prime Minister to Wrexham to launch


the Welsh Conservative manifesto. But the event was overshadowed by


Theresa May announcing amendments to It could have been anywhere


in Wales, she chose Wrexham. We've had a lot of positive


feedback on that. And as you say, on the day


there was talks of U-turns She didn't have to put that


in the manifesto, if you like, but she put it there to actually


tell people that we are addressing the serious issues


facing this country. Other parties are determined


for this not to be just a two-horse race between


the Conservatives and Labour. We're just coming out of a very


successful local council election where we've gained seats,


we've taken seats off Labour and when we are knocking on doors


talking to people locally they are telling us they are looking


for an alternative. They are very disillusioned


with the Labour Party, they are worried about what another


Tory government means I am a very committed Remainer


and I will remain a Remainer, and so it's very important to me


that I get the message across that I think a hard Brexit


will cause untold damage. Ukip came third in the 2015 general


election here with 5000 votes. But they're not fielding


a candidate this time round. Where their vote goes could play


a key role in the outcome here. We've been joined now from Cardiff


by our Political Editor Nick, the big backdrop has been the


possibility of significant Tory gains in Wales. How is that playing


out? That has been the case and we have seen a reflection of it today.


Theresa May is included South, constituency held by Labour, one of


the target seats for Conservatives in Wales. She has been to Wales


three times in the campaign, Wrexham, where you have heard from,


and also another target seat, so it has been a very offensive strategy


and campaign by the Conservatives in Wales, and I think broadly that has


certainly the mindset at the start of the campaign, the view of the


Leave voting Wales, the chunky Ukip vote, all playing potentially well


for the Conservatives in terms of the policy side of things. They came


out with a big crowd pleasing announcement to talk about


abolishing as a manifesto commitment the Severn tolls, the other parties


said they were in on that game but the Tories said they were the ones


who have done this and they talked about replacing EU aid for


economically deprived communities. I have to say, I spoke to a senior


Welsh Conservative this morning and the level of confidence that we may


have seen a few weeks ago isn't quite there as you would expect in


the light of some of the polling evidence we have seen recently. It


seems Labour's response in Wales has been to keep its distance from


Jeremy Corbyn and run a slightly more independent campaign. That's


right, it has or must been Machynlleth no-fly zone for Jeremy


Corbyn in Wales. We did see him at the start a few days after the snap


election was called. Particularly in the context of the infighting we


have seen within Labour at the UK level, they have stressed the Welsh


Labour element and they did it reasonably successfully in the


assembly campaign a year ago and up to a point, even though there were


some big scouts they lost in the council elections a few weeks ago,


again you could argue reasonably successful. But they have done that


in a general election. To be frank, with all been scratching our heads


thinking how on earth do you do that in Westminster campaign? The man who


has fronted Welsh Labour's campaign in Wales has been Carwyn Jones, he


is not a candidate, he is an Assembly Member. In a sense he has


no skin the game in this and yet he has been the one leading the


campaign. From their perspective they feel it gives a sense of


differentiation in Welsh identity, which has worked for them in the


past. The big question is whether it can work in a general election


context. Nick Servini, thank you. Let's return to the Greens because


when Caroline Lucas was last on the programme inmates were discussed


with her a ?250,000 donation the party was offered and the decision


for the green candidate not to stand in the Park by-election.


Andrew asked Caroline Lucas if she knew the name


of the proposed donor - let's just have a look


I know of the incident you are talking about but it happened after


the decision had already been taken to stand down and the money was


So any kind of implication that we were standing down in order


for money is absolutely wrong, categorically wrong.


It happened after the decision was taken and the


I didn't speak to them directly but that is my understanding.


As joint leader of the party if somebody


offers your party ?250,000 you don't know who it is?


I've heard the name but the point was it went through our


ethical checks, it didn't pass our ethical checks, the money was not


The candidate had already decided to stand aside, as


indeed the candidate has decided again because essentially what we


had in the Richmond by-election was the chance to oppose


Zac Goldsmith, who had been running a very racist


campaign in London and we wanted to try


to get somebody in there who was


Caroline Lucas. Jonathan Bartley, as you heard, your colleague was very


firm in saying that the candidate for the by-election had already


decided not to stand. That's correct, isn't it? That's correct.


But the timing looks slightly more suspect because you said there would


be a Green Party report into the incident published after the general


election and we have been given a copy of that report and in the


timeline of events it says your candidate withdrew on the very same


day the donation was offered which was the 1st of November 2016, so she


literally stood down just hours before you got the offer of the


donation? I'm not quite sure about the report, this report was produced


five or six weeks ago and leaked onto Guido and that report has been


categorically rubbished. I'm not sure which report you are talking


about will stop on the same day the candidate said she would not stand.


She said she would withdraw from the selection, also the same day that


this link report said the person contacting you offering ?250,000


made that offer. I can tell you categorically that when I found out


about the offer I know the candidate had already stood down. Do you know


the name? You don't know the proposed donor? I don't know. The


decision was made before the donation was refused. We have checks


and balances within the party, there is a committee who makes the


decisions, it's not within the gift of the leaders to accept or reject a


donation and there is no link. The nominations to be the Green party


candidate closed the day before you offer the money. So she decided to


stand one they had the next day she decided to withdraw that


application. That is a bit coincidental, isn't it? Why put your


name forward and change your mind the next day? I know her very well


and she was the only person going forward, she was the natural person


to be the candidate. Why did she change her mind in 24 hours? She


didn't, she made the decision quite a time before, she been thinking


about it for two or three or four weeks before because I'd have those


conversations with her, she was working through it and I was trying


to support her. The idea of a progressive Alliance is very strong.


You are saying this is not an accurate turn of events but if it is


it looks like sheep put her name forward, with it the next day within


hours of the offer of a donation. I can only tell you why she did it. I


can only take her word for it. I cannot see why you would carry on


pushing this line when it is absolutely clear she made the


decision days before and there is no link to the donation which we


refused. It is your report but it's not as clear as you would think.


Now it's time for the latest in our series of interviews


with the smaller parties standing in the general election on Thursday.


Established in 2006, the Animal Welfare Party is striving


to create a fairer society in which the needs


of people, animals and the environment are balanced.


They oppose any repeal of the fox hunting ban,


They want to phase out animal experimentation with binding


targets for reduction, combined with proper


They're promoting plant-based diets in order to improve human health,


and to protect the environment and global food security.


They propose ending live animal export, and reducing journey times


for animals travelling to slaughter within the UK And they want clear


labelling of products so consumers can make informed choices in line


with their own principles on the environment,


And now we're joined by the leader of the Animal Welfare


Welcome. Given the unfortunate circumstances with Ireland, the


current terrorism threats come immigration issues, social problems


in the UK, do we have the resources to focus on animal welfare in the


way you have outlined? -- given the unfortunate circumstances we are in.


We absolutely do. One of the key policies is about promoting healthy


plant -based diet. We say that is better for human health, and the


environment, and animal welfare. When we look at the environmental


impacts of a diet based highly on animal products, we cannot sustain


that long-term. We cannot sustain that is the world population is


growing from 7 billion, as it is now, and it is expected to be up to


10 billion in 2050. What is the difference between some of the


policies you are suggesting and what the Green party are suggesting? Why


don't you lobby the Green party more to support the things you are


suggesting? Absolutely. I'm so delighted to read the manifesto at


the Green party. They produced a separate manifesto on animal


welfare. What is the point of your party? I do identify with in that


manifesto some of the policies that were in our 2050 manifesto. I don't


know if that is a coincidence. I would say that since we began ten


years ago we called ourselves a testimonial party. That means we


speak to the highest possible policies they can be the animal


welfare. We make them available to all parties. We are happy when we


see them being picked up by other parties. Have you read Vanessa's


manifesto and suggestions and brought them into yours? I don't


write the manifesto. I haven't read it, with respect. I'm sure they are


amazing. We produce our own animal welfare manifesto. I think there is


a role, as you say, to work with other parties like the Women's


Equality Party, we have been working with them. We want more choice in


our electoral system. This is another case for why we should be


looking to reform the system, have a fairer system, because if people


want to put animal welfare on the agenda they can vote for us or your


party. Let's talk about the repeal of the fox hunt ban. What are the


thoughts about Theresa May giving MPs a vote on it? I think it is


appalling. Professor Andrew Knight, a professor of animal welfare, an


expert in this field, we've been looking at this issue, and there is


absolutely no evidence for bringing back fox hunting and saying this is


in some way an acceptable act to deal with the fox population. Which,


incidentally, we don't need to deal with because fox populations are


self managing. You talked about diet, being healthy, a growing


population, would you prefer if everybody was a vegetarian? We don't


make statements like that. We call for a 50% reduction in meat


consumption from our current levels. We say that is necessary for the


future survival of the planet. We have a human population of come here


in the UK, of 65 million. But we are killing 1 billion animals per year.


When we look at how we feed those. It is a staggering statistic. 50% of


all of the corn we are growing as being fed to animals. 50% of all the


water used in the world is for animal farming. Yet we have people


who are starving, people who don't have clean water to drink. Thanks


very much. One of the Green Party's big ideas


is a plan to move to a standard four-day working week -


and a three-day weekend. While workers might cheer at that


prospect, would the country's businesses and public services be


able to cope? Adam's been putting the idea


to the test, in Bristol. We're in the constituency


of Bristol West which is one of the Greens' top target seats


and we're testing one of their key policies,


the introduction of a three-day So, do people think it's


a good idea or a bad idea? Because more time for


students to get drunk. Well, let's hope no one watches this


on national television. I would love to have a three-day


weekend but I'm thinking, does that mean a lot of my money's


going to get cut because of it? Exactly, you know, money's money


at the end of the day. Or it's going to be called


American sweetheart. Wouldn't you like


an extra day to be an artist rather than


being at the office? How would you feel about having one


less day of work a week? Can you cycle past


and get it in as you No, don't fall off, don't


fall off, I'll do it. You look pretty relaxed


as it is to be fair. Mental health is very


important and, you know, more relaxing is what we


all need, I think. I'd have to have my


husband home to much. Total load of bloody rubbish


because if you don't work you're not You don't contribute to the economy


the country's going to go bust. You are walking around


the town centre A three-day weekend,


good idea or a bad idea? What would you do


with your extra freedom? Do you think that's


the Green party's This is my boss and I work six days


for him at the moment. You're going to work


seven days a week? It would be fun but it's


just not practical. Well, there we go, a big majority


think an extra long weekend would be Is that a big enough ice cream?


Explain how your policy would work. Would we all have to take a pay cut?


Four-day working week. We were flagging it up. We have to start


thinking on these terms. 100 years ago, Henry Ford said let's have a


five-day working week, everybody said you can't, but that is now the


standard. There is this idea of automation where there will be large


amount of job losses. We get stressed. We work some of the


longest hours in Europe. We take some of the longest six pay which is


a huge burden on the NHS and welfare. Would people's wages be


cut? We would have something phased in. We need to have a conversation


about it. People's wages shouldn't be cut. Businesses would take a


conversation about it. People's wages shouldn't be cut. Businesses


would take the hit? Not necessarily because government can do things.


You can provide contributions to make it easier for companies that


want to employ more workers at a more productive rate. It works for


businesses. We know that. They are more productive. Flexible and


part-time work is different. A lot of people say that even if they have


a part-time job you end up working five days, but just working them in


four, you would be more stressed. I don't think so. Some people in the


package saying if you are unemployed you don't contribute. But there is a


huge unpaid economy of, for example, care, which is important realise. If


we look at France. The issue of the 35 hour working week. It has been


seen as detrimental to the economy. I don't know about the state of


people's mental health. But that is what Emmanuel Macron wants to get


rid of it. We need to learn from the examples of France. We are talking


about something different, something to be phased in over time. Something


we would do as a matter of consideration, rather than


introducing it overnight, which is what the French did. You won't ever


get in government. Very happy to concede. Apologies, I would just be


honest. When we flagged this in our conference speech a few months ago,


suddenly it got a load of attraction. I was out canvassing and


people were talking about it, they were raising it. We all like the


idea. But what about Labour's offer of more bank holidays? That would be


one way of phrasing it in. Let's take a step back. It is about who


the economy is for. Few people are asking that question. We get these


bland numbers, get the economy growing 1%, 2%, get this trade deal,


but we are not asking who get benefits. If these policies are


gaining traction, or this particular one to have a four-day working week,


then why are you not doing better in the polls. You are not doing as well


as you were in 2015. People are probably thinking they will vote for


the Labour Party. We know this is a strange election where people are


voting tactically like never before. And you have encouraged it. We have


worked with other parties, saying let's move beyond tribalism. In 2015


lots of people voted Ukip and it took the country in one direction.


They were effectively running the government with no MPs. You want to


take the country in another direction, you can vote Green.


You're hoping for more than one MP, presumably? I would love that.


There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.


The question was who have society magazine, Tatler,


named as the poshest candidate to be Prime Minister?


Is it a) Theresa May, b) Tim Farron,


c) Jeremy Corbyn, or, d) Caroline Lucas?


Surely not. Because he has a brother called Piers and he has a son called


Seb. So apparently that is why. Thanks to Jonathan Bartley


and all my guests. In just over an hour's time


Adam Fleming will be popping up on the BBC Politics Facebook


page with his Election And, Andrew will be here at noon


tomorrow with more Daily Politics.


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