13/06/2017 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


It's the first day back at school for MPs after the election.


But with a hung parliament, could things start to get a little unruly


The Prime Minister will welcome the leader of the Democratic


Unionist Party to Downing Street shortly, to try to agree a deal


to allow the Conservatives to govern as a minority.


The leader of the Conservatives in Scotland, Ruth Davidson,


says the party's approach to Brexit must change following the election.


Parliament has 93 new MPs - a good number of whom didn't expect


So what's it like taking a seat in Parliament for the first time?


And it was a disappointing election night for Ukip,


resulting in the resignation of their leader Paul Nuttall.


We speak to one of those seeking to replace him.


And with us for the whole of the programme today is the former


leader of the Conservative Party, Michael Howard.


First today, the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party,


Arlene Foster, is due at Downing Street in the next half


an hour or so, for talks about supporting a Conservative


minority government on key government business.


Eleanor Garnier is in Downing Street.


Eleanor, what the are we expecting between the Conservatives and the


Democratic Unionist Party? This is going to be a looser deal, if you


like. It will not be a formal coalition like saw between the Lib


Dems and the Conservatives. It will be a confidence and supply


arrangement, where the DUP will agree to back the Conservatives on


big votes like the Budget, like the Queen's speech. But after that,


everything will be on an issue by issue, day by day basis. It will be


a looser arrangement. Remember how much Theresa May needs this deal to


be done. Without an overall majority she will not be able to govern. As


for the DUP leader, Arlene Foster, she wants to return home showing she


has got something out of this deal. An element about this will be a


transaction, cash for votes, if you like, some sort of investment. There


is a price Arlene Foster will want to extract from the Prime Minister.


What about the issue of Brexit? The DUP have concerns about cross-border


trade. Yes, the Brexit negotiations are something the leaders will be


talking about at Number 10 in the next hour. Certainly the issue about


the hard border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. The


DUP don't want it. Theresa May doesn't want it. She has talked


about having a frictionless border. The DUP wanted to be as flexible as


possible. They do support Brexit, some of them enthusiastically so.


This idea of putting the economy first and having continued access to


people, workers, goods and services, that position from the DUP has


given, I think, some of those in the Conservative Party who want the


closest possible relationship with the EU, it has given them some hope.


We are expecting Arlene Foster to arrive in the next half an hour. We


did hear from Northern Ireland Secretary James Brokenshire this


morning. He said things are looking positive than the expected deal to


be done. Al, we will leave you to keep your eyes peeled. -- Eleanor.


Michael Howard, did you think your party would be in this position


before election night? No. How do you feel? I'm obviously


disappointed. It was not the result I had hoped to see. Was it down to a


disastrous campaign? It clearly wasn't a great campaign, but there


is nothing to be gained by looking back. No doubt people can reflect at


leisure on the lessons to be learned. I'm sure there are lessons


to be learned. I'm more interested in the present and the future. There


are lessons to be learned though, aren't there? The talks about to


start between Theresa May and Arlene Foster, much of it will be about


what price Arlene Foster wants to extract from Theresa May, including


perhaps some of the austerity measures she may feel should come


out of any legislative programme that the Conservatives want to put


forward, like the social care policy, the Winter Fuel Payments cut


in the Tory manifesto. While their mistakes in the campaign? Let's talk


about the present and the future and what Arlene Foster may want. Let's


wait and see. There is every prospect of a deal being reached


today. I hope the deal is reached. We will have to wait and see how


that deal plays out. We have been here before. This is not the first


time that there has been a government which has not had an


overall majority, which has been operating in a hung parliament and


has had to do deals with minority parties. It has been quite a long


time. The coalition was different. The coalition was completely


different. I'm old enough to remember the days of Prime Minister


Callinan. It is a long time ago. I'm getting on! That was the 1970s. You


also remember from those days that they can pull the plug at any time


here It is not an ideal situation. It is not where I hoped we would be.


Are you comfortable with a relationship, even a confidence and


supply relationship, with the DUP? They have ten elected members of


Parliament to the UK Parliament. They are legitimately elected


members of Parliament. If they are prepared to support us, yes. What


about what they might want in return for supporting the legislative


programme, the big financial, economic policies that a government


has to get through Parliament to survive? What would you be prepared


to give in terms of offering something to Arlene Foster? Since I


know perfectly well that I know I'm not going to be in that position, it


is something to which I have not given any thought. But there has to


be support from her own Conservative party. There have to be some lines


drawn. In terms of deficit reduction, are you prepared to see


quite a bit of money go to the DUP? I'm prepared to leave these things


do the good judgment of the Prime Minister. I'm sure she will have the


support of all Conservative members of Parliament on the deal Bear Cheek


will do with Arlene Foster this afternoon. Do you think she will


stay on, Theresa May? I think she should stay. She has a duty and


responsibility to stay. It would be immensely disruptive to Brexit


negotiations if we had a very Conservative leadership contest are


a general election while those negotiations are going on. We have


heard from the EU negotiating team that they want a strong team from


the UK with a mandate. There will be a strong team from the United


Kingdom. He will not be negotiating with members of Parliament. He will


not be negotiating with opposition parties. He would be negotiating


with the Prime Minister and the Brexit secretary. They will be


sitting on the other side of the table. She is weakened by the


result. George Osborne called her a dead man walking. You don't want a


leadership contest because you don't want to see Jeremy Corbyn of walking


into Number 10, so you are prepared to stick with her because there is


not a better option on the table? No, I want to stay because I think


any kind of contest would be immensely disruptive to the


negotiations Brexit. I think her MPs in Parliament should give her strong


and full support. Signs are that is exactly what will happen.


A new political drama will be coming to our screens this weekend.


c) Meryl Streep as Margaret Thatcher.


At the end of the show Michael will give us the correct answer.


When Theresa May called the election, she said


she needed a majority to be able to deliver Brexit and overcome


As it was she ended up losing her majority, and will now


But does this mean the government's approach to Brexit


The Government's white paper on the Brexit plans included 12


principles for the negotiation, with the focus on controlling


immigration and leaving the Single Market, as well as leaving


the Customs Union to strike free trade deals with


Although a free trade deal with the EU was promised,


Theresa May's view that "no deal is better than a bad deal" was also


reflected in the manifesto, along with the continued commitment


to reduce net migration to the tens of thousands.


But after failing to win a majority, and the need


to come to a deal with DUP, some have suggested


DUP leader Arlene Foster has spoken out against leaving the EU


without a trade deal in place, and has raised the issue


of maintaining the open border between Northern Ireland


Last week's election result has also lead to many


within the Conservative Party calling for a changed stance


on Brexit, led by Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson


who has called for an "open Brexit" which prioritises free trade


Labour, meanwhile, is also committed to leave the Single Market


to curbing free movement - something that Shadow


Chancellor John McDonnell reiterated at the weekend.


Prominent Conservative Leave campaigners insist all this means


the party's approach to Brexit won't change.


What we want, obviously, is to engage and discuss these


matters with people but, in essence, those negotiations


are due to start very, very shortly, ie next week,


and the Conservative government needs to get on and make sure


that they now start talking to our European allies and friends


about how we arrange to have the benefits,


as the Labour Party stood on the same manifesto,


they stood on a manifesto that said no to the single market,


no to customs union, control of our borders,


so the majority of the British people had in front of them two


parties that constituted the majority of the votes that


actually stood on very similar manifestos on Brexit.


To discuss this further, I'm joined by the Conservative MP,


and former Attorney General, Dominic Grieve.


Welcome back. Have the fundamentals of the Brexit negotiating position


changed after the election? The change that has taken place is that


the government does not have a majority, currently, though we may


succeed in doing that with the DUP. The second change is I think we need


to listen to the message which the electorate is giving to us. One of


the messages I picked was that the electorate are increasingly


concerned about the economic well-being of the country, that they


are fed up with austerity, partly because austerity was a means to an


end and they see this as a prominent state. It is not surprising in those


circumstances they should be troubled by it. I think there is


also an appreciation that Brexit may have opportunities but it also


carries risks. You don't agree with Iain Duncan Smith that the issue is


now settled? I've never thought the issue was settled. I didn't think it


was settled before the election. My view has always been that you need


to negotiate and you need to see what you can get from negotiation.


Secondly, you have to be realistic about what is in the national


interest at any given moment against a moving background. The background


is undoubtedly a moving one. The question is, what is in the best


interest of the country? If we spend years mired in Brexit negotiations,


which are damaging to the economy in the short to medium term, whatever


the opportunities may be in the longer term, then not sure the


electorate are going to thank us for that. I think they are looking for


trying to bring this matter to as clean and rapid a conclusion as


possible. What does it mean in practical terms? Does the


government's negotiating position need to change, or is it still the


case they will continue down the path of saying Britain is leaving


the single market and leaving the Customs Union? The government is


entitled to do just -- explore the options that may be on offer. But in


doing that, the government needs to be realistic about it on ability to


command a majority in the House, and secondly, needs to be realistic


about the national interest in terms of getting this matter resolved.


Provided they keep those things in mind and adopt a common sense


approach, we will probably emerge with the right conclusion. All


options are on the table? Yes, they should be. You didn't win the


election, Labour didn't win the election. Despite the fact in both


manifestos are clearly said, we are committed to leaving the single


market and the Customs Union, everything has changed? One thing


hasn't changed. Surprisingly enough, Dominic didn't actually mention it.


That is that just about a year ago, we had a referendum. And that


referendum resulted in a clear vote by the people of this country in


favour of leaving the European Union. Now, of course, I'm in total


agreement with Dominic that we need a common sense approach. I


absolutely agree that we must keep the national interest in mind at all


times. But as Iain Duncan Smith has reminded us, the truth is that I


hope -- heard Jeremy Corbyn say clearly on Sunday morning, we must


leave the single market. He said we must try to get a tariff free


agreement of access to the single market. That is the government


position. The Labour manifesto said leaving the European Union means the


end of free movement. That is the government position. So actually,


there is, as Ian said, an enormous degree of consensus between the two


main parties for those objectives. The only parties that were really


seeking to one do Brexit in the general election where the SNP,


which is substantially lost ground, and the Liberal Democrats, which


failed to gain any brand. So the principle set out in the


White Paper are still the principles the government is going to negotiate


on. I was very happy to endorse the principle set out in the White Paper


and the longest house speech, if the Prime Minister can achieve those


objectives. I think people would recognise was a remarkable outcome.


I don't disagree with... If we leave the single market would you accept


that we are still single to the four freedoms, as they are called, by the


EU, including freedom of movement of people, would we be leaving the EU?


Yes, of course we would be leaving the EU but it is a different way of


leaving the EU and it is a legitimate subject of debate as to


whether the national interest should take one route or another. Both are


leaving the EU, certainly in terms of the question was put to the


electorate last year. So both, in my view, are capable, and should be


capable, being debated. That is not to say that the Prime Minister's


approach as set out like as has speech was wrong. Do you accept that


that is another virgin? There has been a lot of debate within your own


party as well as the other parties, including Labour, that what people


voted for in that referendum was, yes, to leave the EU, take back


control and sovereignty but yes, to leave the EU, take back


necessarily to be the single market. If we remain subject to freedom of


movement, one of the four freedoms you mentioned, and if we remain


subject to the jurisdiction of the European court of justice we will


not have taken back control, people will not have got what they voted


for a year ago and we will not in any real sense have left the


European Union. Even Ruth Davidson, the leader of the Tories in


Scotland, who has increased the number of Tory MPs in Scotland and


now has a certain amount of influence that she can bring to bear


to the negotiations, she is calling very strongly, saying we need to


look again at the Brexit strategy and she is also saying it is not


just a Tory Brexit, we need to include all the parties. Bennies to


be much more consensus. Is she right? Depends what she means Archy


has called for an open Brexit. I'm afraid I have no idea what an open


Brexiteers. She doesn't want immigration to be at the forefront.


Is she right that the economy should come before a commitment to tens of


thousands in terms of net migration? I don't believe the commitment to


tens of thousands is going to form part of the negotiation. When we


were in the Brexit campaign, I used to say, and I meant, that the Brexit


campaign was not about lowering immigration, it was about who


decides what our level of immigration should be, and taking


back control means that we should have the right to decide in this


country for ourselves who we need to come into the country and who they


should be. Is this a Remain fightback? Is this an attempt by


Remainers across the House of Commons to say, we don't want to


leave the single market and we are being buoyed by the fact that there


has been a snap poll of 700 members of the Institute of Directors that


has found a dramatic drop in confidence following a hung


parliament and they're worried about access to skilled labour? Does that


not bring more pressure to bear for that view? Certainly we should


listen to what the business community is saying. The


Conservative Party has usually built its reputation on quiet government


and sound economic management. If we are not delivering those two things,


then we shouldn't be surprised when people get attracted to other


visions and we have to face up to the fact that Brexit was in its own


weight in revolutionary act and the trouble with revolutions is they


tend to breed further revolutionary act as a consequence. Those of us


who have responsibility to ensure good governance have to keep that in


mind when we are trying to find the right way forward to respond


properly to the message that the electorate is giving us and, at the


same time, to ensure that we have the sort of quiet, good government


which makes people confident about their future and ultimately prevents


this country from lurching around from one crisis to another. Do you


agree with that? Of course we have to do all those things, while also


complying with the instruction given to us by the British people a year


ago to leave the European Union. But, of course, listening to Dominic


Grieve, he is saying we are going to have to broaden the options on the


table. Do you see these calls for - and it is a loaded term - a


softening of Brexit? Does that worry you? Do you think that maybe


Brexiters just not going to happen? I have no idea what these phrases


mean. I don't know what is done by hard Brexit, a soft Brexit or an


open Brexit. What I think it is more useful to concentrate on the


substantive issues which, to be fair, we have just been discussing.


Do we leave the single market? Do we retain control over freedom of


movement. Do we continue to subject ourselves to the jurisdiction of the


European Court of Justice? Those are the issues that really matter and


they need to be resolved one way or another in the negotiations. You can


understand people's concerns when they hear that the NHS was facing a


staffing crisis after Brexit because it sparked a jaw-dropping 96% fall


in EU nurses applying for jobs. That would make people think, I want to


rethink that decision to leave the single market. Well, I think people


are drawing the wrong conclusions from the likely outcome of the


Brexit negotiations. But it is already happening, the applications


are falling, so they are taking that message away. If we... When we


leave, we will have control over immigration policy. If it is the


case, as it is quite likely to be, we need people to come into the


country to help nursing people in the NHS, we will be able to frame an


immigration policy accordingly. But it is all ready putting people off -


that the evidence from some of these surveys. Do you now see a clear path


for a much longer transition, a much longer transitional period that


could take several years and would keep Britain under EU single market


terms? I think it is ludicrously premature to talk about a transition


when we don't know what the outcome of the negotiation is going to be.


But that will be part of the negotiation. Well, it may be. I've


no doctrinal objection to a transition period but that is


something you decide on when you've completed the negotiations, you've


decided what needs to happen and then you can make a sensible


decision about how long that's going to take and if that involves a


transition the rearrangement or an implementation period, I would have


no doctrinal difficulty with that but it is not something to be


decided now. We're going to talk briefly about austerity, which you


mentioned at the beginning. Before we do, there does seem to be a


certain amount of turmoil within the department that is in charge of


Britain leave the EU. David Jones has been sacked, George Bridges,


Melissa in the Lords, has quit. James Chapman, head of


Communications, has left. It isn't going to inspire confidence in the


negotiations. David Davis is still there. But he seems to have lost a


whole team of people. At our position has been laid out, as


Dominic reminded us, both in the White Paper and the Lancaster House


speech. So our opening position has been laid out very clearly and I


can't see any reason why the negotiations shouldn't start next


week, and I think we all hope that they reach a rapid speedy


conclusion, which is good for both of us. The European Union don't want


the United Kingdom to become an impoverished country, they want us


to prosper and we want them to prosper, and it's in our mutual


interests to reach a sensible, constructive agreement. That's


Brexit for the moment. Let's dog-leg but about austerity because Theresa


May's new chief of staff Gavin Barwell told Panorama that accident


were Brexit and austerity called the Conservative Party to lose seats,


including his own. There was a conversation I particularly remember


with a teacher who had voted for me in 2010 and 2015 and said, "I


understood the need for a pay freeze for a few years to deal with the


deficit but you are now asking that potentially to go on for ten more


years and that is too much" it that is the Jeremy Corbyn was able to tap


into. Just to make clear, Gavin Barwell was recorded for the


programme before he was made Theresa May's new chief of staff. Do you


agree with him? Yes, I do. I think it was quite clear that austerity


was a necessity born of the 2008 financial crisis. That is why the


Coalition was set up and it is also why we were re-elected in 2015. Was


an appreciation that our financial management made mistakes but was


pretty good and the economy was recovering. The difficulty we now


have is that the events of last year create instability and anxiety about


the future and if that becomes a state of permanence, people then


start asking, "I'm quite prepared to make sacrifices of I think it is


leading to an outcome which is going to be good to me and my family but


if it becomes a state of semi-permanence and you can't show


the direction of travel in which you are going, then it is going to


become much harder". Is austerity over? I think we need to be


realistic. Before we suddenly start chucking billions of pounds of


public services, we have also to look at what the consequences of


doing that might be. If Jeremy Corbyn had won this election, this


country would be on the road to economic ruin very, very quickly.


You might say that. I am absolutely convinced of it. The thing is, you


are going to do exactly, partly - I'm not saying wholesale - what's


Jeremy Corbyn was suggesting in his manifesto. You're going to reverse


austerity. I don't know what the primaries and the Chancellor... You


just said it would be the right thing to do. What the Prime Minister


and the Chancellor need to do, and I think they recognise this, is that


one has to understand the extent to which the austerity which has been


seen as an -- a necessity. Has gone on too long? Has limits of


reasonableness been reached with the electorate? This is going to be a


very big challenge because if as a result of turning a tap on public


expenditure, we start to undermine wealth creation in this country, in


the long term we will leave an even worse legacy. This has always been


the conundrum for all respectable governments. Jeremy Corbyn didn't


offer respectable government to dug-in fantasy vision. He did quite


well and a lot better than you expected. If respectable government


cannot offer a credible vision, the fantasists will soon creep into the


picture. Except that your vision was not accepted either by the majority


of people in terms of seats, so do you agree this was a protest about


ongoing austerity, hitting those who are less well off? Well, it is


entirely understandable, as Dominic has said that people should be


increasingly frustrated by austerity. We all completely


understand that. So why did you keep offering it in the manifesto?


Because on the other hand, as a country, we have to try to get to a


situation in which we are living within our means. We are not living


within our means at the moment, we haven't been living within our means


for quite a long time and, at some point, we have to try and get back


to that situation. Accepted as the priorities that were wrong.


Balancing that objective with responding to the understandable


desire of the electorate for something different is going to be


one of the great challenges facing the government. Would you be in


favour of the public sector pay freeze ending? I'm not the


Chancellor of the Exchequer. I know that. Do you have an opinion,


Michael Howard? I don't want to second-guess all first guess the


Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is one of the challenges he faces and I


wish the best of fortune as the addresses it. I'm sure you do.


Dominic Grieve, thank very much. Now, 93 newly elected MPs


are polishing their shoes, dusting down their suits and getting


ready for their first day Our Ellie has been finding out


how they're feeling. MUSIC PLAYS


if you thought Thursday night's result was a surprise, spare a


thought for those candidates who had not expected it either.


And now they've got new jobs, starting today. One of the Tories'


newest, newest and most surprised didn't even have a suit. I had to go


and buy one to date it I genuinely didn't own one. I had an old Primark


one so I have been and splashed out at matter land today. Also not


turning up in a suit yet, a new Labour MP who used to work at


Parcelforce. Lee Waters old shirt down to Westminster. How are you?


Nice to see you. Thursday jitters? Not jitters. It reminds me of my


first day on the labour ward. No, not that kind of Labour! He is a


doctor. I knew a little bit about what I was doing, trying to help


mothers deliver their babies safely but I didn't have much experience


and I have a lot to learn. The good thing is that the midwives on the


other doctors were very helpful and mine hoping for a bit of that today.


Do you even know where the toilets and the coffee shop are? I'm sure I


will find it! I'm sure you will. See you soon. Goodbye to it good luck.


Other newcomers have had to have awkward conversations with their


bosses. I care about it, it is important to me, but don't worry, I


will be back on Monday the 12th. And they were like, "OK, off you go,"


and I won. They are getting the hang of how to introduce themselves. I'm


Wera Hobhouse, I am the Liberal Democrat MP for Bafta Tocco, no, I


am the MP for Bath. Others aren't so new but had a break for seven years,


like David Drew who lost his seat in 2010 and found it again this time.


It is all very different. There are things like you get your laptop and


iPad, I never had that before. So there are some good things but the


downside is I'm still going to have to wait up to six weeks for an


office so nothing changes completely! So far, it has been all


about photo calls for the new MPs. The work gets under way in


Westminster this afternoon with the election of the Speaker, and then


they will get sworn in over the coming days.


And I'm joined here by two more new members of Parliament.


Emma Dent Coad won the seat of Kensington for the Labour Party.


And Christine Jardine won Edinburgh West for


Congratulations to both of you. I hope I'm not being impolite by


saying you must have been slightly surprised to have won the Labour


stronghold of Kensington? Not had all, actually. I'm born and bred


there. I know a lot of different communities. A lot of people had


felt completely alienate it from the process, and suddenly they became


engaged. A lot of conservatives who are appalled by the inequalities,


not only Brexit, but the inequalities in Kensington, also


voted for me. They have been even -- e-mailing me asking me to come and


talk to them. What was your experience of the night like? Tense.


Waiting for the phone call. The first surprise was when the poll


said it would be a hung parliament. I have to be honest and say we were


quite confident going into the night. We weren't taking it for


granted. But we had very good returns, a very good feeling on the


doorsteps. We knew it would be close. But we were close --


confident we could do it. There were a lot of close results on the night.


We had Stephen Gethins on yesterday. He held his seat by two volts. How


many recounts Werther in Kensington? I had three. I felt sorry for the


counters. They were totally exhausted. I think there were some


press pictures of them. They had to go to work the next day. That was


rather unfair. We had three. We were on tenterhooks. What about the


moment when they announced the numbers and you realised you had got


it? That is pretty special. They take you into the candidates'


briefing room to tell you. By that time you suspect. But you don't know


the actual numbers. That is pretty special. And it is exciting. It is


exciting for the people around you who have worked very hard for months


and years to make it happen. And it is their work and their moment as


much, sometimes more, than it is yours. They are the ones who have


delivered the victory. What were the issues that won it for you?


Independence. Right across the board. We had local issues in


Edinburgh West. But the impatience in Scotland with the SNP, another


Independence Referendum, keeping the ball rolling, it has worn very thin.


Even with some SNP supporters. They would rather they got on with


governing Scotland. We were getting that everywhere. What about the


first day? Are you nervous? Not at all. It feels quite natural,


actually. I feel bizarrely calm. What happens on the first day? You


get lots of inductions. It is not unlike being a councillor. It is


more or less what I expected. Very busy. Have you been shown around?


Have you got an office? Not yet. I have actually worked here before. I


worked for a spell in the coalition. I knew my way around the estate but


you see it very differently. You can now go in members' only areas. The


important thing is not to get too carried away. It is just part of the


job. The big parties back in the constituency. You have got some way


to travel. You are a little closer. You put your Ph.D. On I understand?


I have. I was doing architecture, politics and ideology under General


Franco in Spain. We are going to Parker for a little while. I hope to


negotiate with my university but I will be getting back to that at some


point. That indicates you are quite expecting to win on the night? We


had a plan! You were a broadcaster? I worked for the BBC. What is it


like on the other side? You get used to it. It is funny. Particularly in


Scotland. If I am on good morning Scotland I am quite often being


interviewed by the person who used to be my producer. The producer was


a researcher... Can you remember your first day, Michael? Allow me


first to congratulate both of you on your victories. It is a huge


privilege, walking through the gate, just amazing. A tremendous privilege


and a tremendous feeling. I do remember. I had agreed with Sandra


to go on breakfast television on the Friday morning immediately after


with Tim Brinton, who you will remember, and Jan, his wife. The


four of us were there. He was giving me advice, showing me the ropes on


television. And since then, all these years in Parliament, you


haven't regretted a moment? Well, I'm sure there are things I regret!


It is an enormous privilege. And that sense of privilege will never


leave you. I don't think. And it's a privilege that has to be earned and


earned again. It isn't a job for life, unless you have a safe seat.


Not only is it not a job for life, it is not something you should ever


take for granted. Did you expect the hung parliament? I thought it would


be close. But who knows? No. I don't think the world expected that. It


was much better than some of us feared. It is always possible. If we


can turn Kensington red, we can do anything. That may be true. What


about some of the issues you will be pursuing? Obviously independence was


an issue. Brexit will be hugely important. It was very important in


Scotland as well because Edinburgh, for example, the majority of people


in Edinburgh West voted two to stay in the UK and in the European Union.


We have two ensure we get the best possible deal. Hopefully, Mrs May


will see that the election result means that perhaps she didn't quite


have the mandate she thought for a hard Brexit, and that is glad to be


something the parties will be pursuing. Could you see yourselves


working with Ruth Davidson in Scotland in terms of pursuing a


similar approach to Brexit? I don't know. We have to see what happens.


We have a specific pro-EU approach. Before the referendum, Ruth Davidson


was very pro-Remain. We will have to wait to see what happens. Good luck


to both of you. Enjoy. We will see you again soon. Come back on.


So there are a couple of constitutional fixes


or conventions that might help Mrs May's government be a little bit


Among them is the power of Evel - not a cheap Hollywood horror flick,


but the relatively new concept of English Votes for English Laws,


designed to stop MPs from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland helping


The other is the much older Salisbury Convention,


created to protect a government's democratically supported manifesto


If that isn't all clear yet, don't worry, we have an expert.


Dr Alan Renwick from the Consitition Unit who is in Oxford.


Welcome to the programme. Thank you. I'm so sorry. I would have to


interrupt. We can just see Arlene Foster checking how Watts. She is on


the a few minutes late. She was expected at 12:30pm. Going in with


Nigel Dodds. Her support is absolutely critical to Theresa May.


So that she can actually govern. First of all she has to get her


queen's speeds through Parliament, Theresa May. These talks will be


crucial. It is a lifeline to Theresa May. It comes after the Prime


Minister apologised to MPs for the election result, telling them, I got


us into this mess and I will get us out of it. We will return of that


meeting finishes. Sorry for interrupting before you had even


begun. Tell us about these constitutional fixes. Will the


government be able to push through legislation relying only on English


MPs? No is the simple answer. Sorry, my earpiece as pop died. They are


very unreliable. Hold it. Eva lives not likely to make any difference.


-- Evel. It introduces an extra element into the process. Matters


that affect only England can be vetoed by English MPs. There is a


step in the process where English MPs have two agree to those laws.


Those laws are still subject to a vote by the whole of the House of


Commons. Although it is the case that Theresa May does have a


majority, quite a comfortable majority of 60 MPs in England, that


doesn't help are terribly much. She will still have to get anything


through the whole of the House of Commons as well. She has got an


issue, for example, like expanding grammar schools, expanding grammar


schools in England because education is devolved, she would still have to


get that passed the whole House before she can go to English-only


MPs, and she doesn't have a majority for everything. So she will still


have the same problems as with any other legislation? Yes, absolutely.


What the English Votes for English Laws provision doors is, if there


were a government which was the other way around, say the Labour


Party had one 50 or more seats, and it were the party leading a minority


government or a coalition government with a small number of MPs, then it


would have been constrained by the English Votes for English Laws


provision because it would not have a majority in England. At that point


the provision would have been important. But for this government


it doesn't make any difference. Let's talk about the Salisbury


Convention and the House of Lords. If something is in the manifesto and


a government wins a majority, that in the House of Lords should abide


by that manifesto commitment. If we look at restricting Winter Fuel


Payments for pensions -- pensioners, it is in the manifesto, but Mrs May


didn't get that majority, can she still putted to the House of Lords


using the Salisbury Convention? The Salisbury Convention is only a


convention. Members of the House of Lords are not bound by it. There are


different views as to what the convention means. Some would say the


convention does apply, even when the government does not have a majority


in the house of Commons. Others take the view that in that circumstance


it should not be regarded. The Salisbury Convention was introduced


in 1945 when the Labour Party had a very large majority in the House of


Commons but was well behind in the House of Lords. At that point, the


Leader of the House of Lords, Lord Salisbury, said, we recognise the


mandate of the Labour government and we should respect that. But it is


not clear, really, whether the House of Lords should see itself as being


bound by the mandate of the current government, because, as we know, the


government doesn't have a majority of MPs. Thank you very much. Michael


Howard. Problems ahead in the House of Lords. It is a convention and


they don't necessarily have to abide by it, and the Tories do not have a


majority in the House of Lords. When it comes to plans for Brexit, for


example, that no deal is better than a bad deal, that could go in the


House of Lords? You're looking many years ahead. We will cross that


bridge if and when we ever reach it. I hope the Salisbury Convention will


be respected. The Conservative party got 44% of the vote. Many more seats


than Labour. But they didn't win. Why should it be? You'll are depends


what you mean by win. No other party won. It is a convention. I think it


should apply in these circumstances. We shall see. When the Prime


Minister has got the Queen's speeds through the Commons, it will be


difficult. There will be problems of certain parts of that are held up by


the House of Lords? There may be all sorts of difficulties ahead. The


House of Lords should respect the authority of the House of Commons,


for a start. The Salisbury Convention should apply.


In Brexit, looking ahead to the Great Repeal Bill, there are already


people saying they won't support that bill is the next substantial


vote when it comes to Brexit. Let's see what the Great Repeal Bill


contains. I hope everyone will look at it and vote on its merits and, as


I say, we will cross those bridges if and when we come to them. We


talked earlier about parts of the manifesto that will possibly have to


be junked. Do you see that there will be part of a manifesto that was


fought on in this campaign that will have to go? Well, the Queen's speech


is going to result from discussions between the government and the DUP


and so, busy, if there are things in the manifesto which the DUP is not


prepared to support, it is not terribly likely that they will find


their way into the Queen's speech but that is going to be the subject


of the discussions which are probably taking place as we speak.


Yes, they are, indeed. I don't know how long they will be in there while


they are negotiating. Back on English roots for English laws, but


is effectively a veto and is not going to help Theresa May at all in


terms of pushing through English-only laws. For the reasons


given by your expert commentator, it is unlikely to have a very


significant effect in this Parliament, I agree. Briefly on the


fixed term Parliament act, that is on the statute. Do you think that


makes a five-year term for Mrs May more likely? It makes a five-year


term a little bit more likely, yes, because, as you know, there are


provisions which have to be satisfied in order for an election


to take place within that five years. However, those conventions


did not seem to be much of a bar to the calling of an election just a


few weeks ago and I suspect they won't be much of a bar to the


calling of an election within the five-year period if that's what


people want to. Do you think that should be scrapped? It was in the


Conservative manifesto. I think the fixed five-year parliament was


absolutely necessary for the Coalition because you had to have


provision which stopped one party cutting and running when it thought


it would be to its electoral advantage but I'm not convinced it


is necessary as a permanent feature of our constitution. So you wouldn't


be unhappy if it went? No. Was the first things our new MPs have to do


is elect their speaker. That post was held in the last


Parliament by John Bercow and he had been expected to face a challenge


after increasing But with a hung parliament,


one of the Speaker's most vocal detractors,


Conservative MP James Duddridge, said there "is not an appetite


to push it to a vote", adding that there are "more


important battles to fight". I'm joined now by Bobby Friedman,


who has written a biography Welcome back to the Daily Politics.


When we're talking about winners and losers in this election, John Bercow


it seems is a winner. He is. Is a bit Teflon and has been extremely


lucky because over the period since 2009, he has had all the cards fall


in the right place for him to stay a speaker and it has happened again


because as James Duddridge said, there was the appetite or ability to


do it because the Conservative Party have more pressing issues. But that


does imply that there was quite a lot of opposition to him. Tell us a


bit about some of the criticism of John Bercow. There has always been a


huge amount of opposition to him, particularly with Alyssa


Conservative Party. When he was elected in 2009 it was because


Labour still had a majority at that time and they voted for the


Conservative MP they knew David Cameron liked the least. David


Cameron has always hated John Bercow but never quite had the votes all


the political will to get it through and then, of course, just when it


looked like Theresa May might have a big majority that might allow the


Conservatives to finally get rid of him - and this is particularly


important because John Bercow during the campaign has said he is going to


stay in for a full term, having pledged early to say the nine years,


then this opportunity has gone as well. There was an opportunity to


unseat him in 2015 undefiled, didn't it? There was that attempt and an


attempt more recently this year, where there was a motion going round


which didn't get that many signatures. Again, it's because they


haven't ever been quite that majority. John Bercow, in fairness


to him, does have support from a number of Conservative MPs and as


the years go on, that kind of visceral hatred of him that we had


in 2009 has lessened a bit and many people think he has been a fairly


reasonable speaker, so the longer it goes on, and without that big


Conservative majority, he is not going to get unseated because he has


support on the other side of the House. Do you like him, Michael? It


would be foolhardy in the extreme for a member of the House of Lords


to express a view on the speakership of the House of commons and you


wouldn't expect me to trespassers on something which is totally within


the sovereignty of the House of Commons. That makes it sound like


you don't like him. Can I answer that question of this is an example


of why John Bercow was so unpopular. When Michael Howard was leader of


the Conservative Party the two might have got on and John Bercow went to


Lord Howard and said he thought that Ann Widdecombe was right when she


said there was something of the night about him and that was the


party leader at the time. Maybe that is why you are not very keen to talk


be pleased to see another term for John Bercow? I respect the


differences between the House of Lords the House of Commons and it


certainly wouldn't be right for me to make any... I think you should


break with convention for once! Backbenchers are going to be even


more empowered in this new parliament, a hung parliament, and


he has got a reputation, John Bercow, rightly or wrongly, of


trying to give more time to backbench MPs, hasn't he? That's


right it appears always said he is the backbencher speaker and he has


been much better at holding the government to account in some ways.


Weather that is because he hasn't liked the Conservative primaries as


is a moot point but ultimately he does get backbenchers more involved


but parliamentarians are really going to have their say in this


Parliament about thing John Bercow will allow that. Do you think that


has been a good thing, empowering Parliament to stand up to the


Executive, giving them more time, backbench MPs, in PMQs, which does


now overrun. Has that been a positive? Yes. And it should


continue? Yes, I'm sure it will. I suppose it is easy when you are not


the leader of the party any more to say that. If Tory MPs are moaning


less about him, do you think that has gone, any attempt to get rid of


him in future? I think yes, for the next parliament, assuming he doesn't


want to try and stay on again for another Parliament. There just


aren't those votes there and when you are government together, as


Theresa May is going to have to do, she just won't have that political


capital to be able to do it. So I think he has been very lucky but I


think he is safe for the next five years. What about relations between


him and Andrea Leadsom, who is now the new Leader of the House, taking


over from David Lidington. How do you see that relationship going?


John Bercow has a real habit of falling out with people he has to


deal with so I wouldn't rule that out but at the moment, things are


probably a little bit better than they have been. David Cameron really


disliked him. Theresa May sort of tolerates him and gave quite a nice


bit for one of his leaflets in the run-up to the election endorsing him


so he is getting on OK with the current leadership of the


Conservative Party and I think inevitably it will be a bit rocky


but given where the majority stands at the moment, I think Andrea


Leadsom will ultimately have to work with John Bercow. The other thing is


in a hung parliament, I suppose is or becomes even more important. He


has better relations with Theresa May. Is he going to mind his peace


and queues in the future or just carry on as if nothing has changed?


I years ever done that so -- see that starting up. He is into his


last five years so we may see him getting even more demob happy,


speaking out more on issues, not staying as impartial as he did over


the EU referendum, so I think we will see him trespassing into other


areas, as he started to do earlier this year. So you think you can


actually cause a little more trouble in the future? Yes, just putting a


little bit of poison now and then. What advice would you give to John


Bercow? I'm not asking you to say whether you like him or not but what


advice in this hung parliament in his position as arbiter of a hung


parliament? You are asking a member of the House of Lords to advise the


Speaker of the House of Commons. Well, only generally. You can give


friendly advice. You don't have to be unfriendly about it. I very much


doubt that he would ask for my advice, even further doubt that he


would accept it and I don't think it is for me to give it to him. Thank


you very much for coming in. Now we can return to Number Ten because we


saw Arlene Foster, the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party walking


about famous street into Number Ten. Those discussions obviously still


going on. Norman, what can you tell us? You keep looking over your


shoulder just in case she comes out of that door. I was looking at a


much more interesting fight about to erupt, it seems, between Larry and


another cat. That is a serious clash that could be just about to unfold


it up I don't know whether I should intervene! Is he actually making


ground? Is Larry lying there? Larry is lying there and Parmeston turned


up and I thought he was chancing his arm. I think Larry has woken up now


and has realised there is trouble! Is this a euphemism for what is


going on behind the black door? Arlene Foster arrived a short time


ago and we shouted at her about "Is there going to be a deal"? At she


said absolutely nothing I think the expectation is that there will be


some sort of agreement, even if it is only the headlines of agreement


because, let's be honest, there was a mutual vested interest for both


parties to reach some sort of accommodation. They are both


fervently anti-Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party. Mrs May absolutely


need the deal to get a Commons majority so she can govern and for


the DUP, they will hope they will get money on it that there will be


cash for economic regeneration and reconstruction. There is a mutual


self-interest in reaching a bargain. I suspect it will be handshakes,


smiles and photo opportunities today. I think the trouble is more


down the line as to whether this sort of arrangement can actually


stick and lasting longer tempted In the short-term, we're still waiting,


aren't we, for a date for the Queen's speech, for the legislative


programme to be presented to Parliament and, presumably, wants


these talks are over, and if an arrangement has been reached by the


two ladies, then we will find out when that Queen's Speeches going to


be? Well, perhaps there is one scenario where the DUP just decide


to play hardball and they say, that is very interesting, this is all


good stuff and I'm sure we can reach an agreement but we've just got to


go away and finesse a few things. In other words, they don't sign on the


dotted line today but to increase their leverage... They are basically


going to keep Mrs May waiting, in which case the premise cannot say to


the Queen, next Monday we are on for the Queen's Speech. So it depends


whether the DUP are ready to actually sign on the dotted line


today or they choose to keep Mrs May waiting a bit longer, in which case


we really do not know when the Queen's Speeches going to be. Thank


you very much and keep Parmeston and Larry apart and keep your eye on the


black door! They are having a face-off now, actually! I will leave


you to concentrate on Number Ten. For the fourth time


in 12 months, Ukip Their last leader, Paul Nuttall,


resigned after the party failed to win a seat in the general


election last week. We'll be speaking to all


the candidates on Daily Politics. First is David Coburn,


who joins us from Strasbourg. We haven't got very long with you


but thank you for joining us. You say you are running for Ukip leader


to stop at Trieste, dilettantes and a single issue loonies. What do you


mean by that? Two is the what I'm doing as I am hoping that Nigel is


going to stand. My hope is that Nigel Farage is going to be our


leader again. I think he is the best man for the job but if he doesn't


stand, I will have to stand to make sure we don't have people coming in


who have not got the right idea. We want to go back to good


old-fashioned Ukip, which Idol had working beautifully and we want to


have that again, not this nonsense. At the risk of sounding like Brenda


during the general election campaign, Nigel again? Yes, well, I


regret he even left in the first place, quite frankly, but I'm hoping


that he will stand but if he doesn't, I will be standing. I want


to make sure we offer what we've always offered, which is the


ordinary working guy and girl, give them a good run for their money,


make sure they get treated fairly, keep taxes low, make sure we get


Brexit. We've seen what's happened with the Conservative Party, it has


disintegrated. The ridiculous election they've had has resulted a


disaster so obviously we've got to be there to make sure... Just very


briefly, was Paul Matt Allwright to resign? Yes, I think you did the


right thing. I think he was ill advised by the people around him but


I think he was right to resign. We've got serious problems in


Scotland. People worry about Ruth Davidson. She promised Brexit energy


is reneging. We have to leave it there. I am sorry to quit you short


but thank you very much for joining us briefly.


There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.


The question was, which of these is the odd one out?


Was it A - Will Barton as Boris Johnson?


C - Meryl Streep as Margaret Thatcher?


So, Michael, what's the correct answer?


Michael Gove? No, it is Meryl Streep that Margaret Thatcher. You didn't


noted that because she was in a film and the others are a docudrama. I


think that the answer. I hope so! The one o'clock news is starting


over on BBC One now.


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