10/07/2017 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

Theresa May is to signal a change in approach by calling

for cross-party consensus to tackle the urgent challenges

A mature approach or a recognition or her weakened position?

The European Parliament's Brexit chief, Guy Verhofstadt,

says Theresa May's plans for EU citizens in the UK are a "damp

squib" and threatens to veto any Brexit deal unless she offers more.

Labour has already pledged to scrap tuition fees,

but now the party says would like to go even further

and write off all student debt, costing up to 100 billion.

The Conservatives call it a shambolic proposal.

And it's another big week ahead in Westminster -

we'll have all the details of what's in store over the next seven days.

And with us for the whole programme today are the Conservative MP

Rishi Sunak, and Labour MP Chuka Umunna.

First this morning, Theresa May is making a speech tomorrow -

her first big speech since the election -

in which she will call on other parties to "contribute

Acknowledging her weakened position, she will say this is the "reality

I now face as Prime Minister" and call on opponents to help

Let's get more from our political correspondent, Ben Wright.

Is this desperation, calling on opponents to prop her up? It is

certainly a dramatic change of tone from Theresa May, never known in

Westminster as the most collaborative politicians, but here

she is, considerably weakened, having lost the Tories' majority in

the Commons. All the muttering round here is how long she has got, weeks

or months. This is a speech that has been heavily trial, a couple of days

before she makes it, indicating that she is clearly determined to carry

on with this as long as she can. She says her appetite is not dimmed. She

still wants to tackle all the injustices that she set out to

tackle when she first became PM last year, and making this offer for

cross-party collaboration on the big issues facing Britain. The briefing

suggests she is talking about things like social care reform. I think it

does look like desperation. It is very out of character, and a

substance is very questionable. There is a high degree of scepticism

in the press about this today. In The Times - week and made pleads for

support. Another says - may's cry for help to Corbyn. We need to treat

this with scepticism and ask how realistic this idea of cross-party

working is, but Damian Green this morning was defending the idea and

said it was workable. that politicians can work together

across party lines is actually Surely we can agree on aspects

of counterterrorism policy, or social care policy,

or workers' rights and so on. There are issues where

the Westminster system it is sensible in this Parliament,

if there are things we agree on - and, of course,

we disagree on lots of things - but if there are things we agree on,

then we should do so. Damian Green saying that the public

like the idea of cross-party consensus, and it's true. Voters

think it would be a good idea for parties to talk about the big issues

that you mention, like social care, but in practical terms, how will it

work and is never a positive response from the Lib Dems, the SNP

and Labour? Certainly, Labour have said this smacks of desperation and

they are not interested in the Tories trying to make what they see

as they are perfectly good policy ideas. Damian Green says it is a

practical political necessity but Theresa May because she has no

majority. She will have DUP support on key events like the budget and

the Queen 's speech, but beyond that, she will have to compromise

and have talks. On big issues like social care, on Brexit, where some

MPs have called for a cross-party commission to really try and find a

parliamentary consensus on the way forward for Brexit, I don't think

the Government are very interested in that. Some of the big reforms

that Theresa May wanted to see enacted, that were in the manifesto,

on social care and education, they have had to be dropped because she

didn't get a majority. She has to say this sort of thing, but you get

little sense that Labour are interested. After all, they want to

try to bring Theresa May down, not prop her up. It brings a bit hollow

from someone like Theresa May because she wasn't exactly

collaborative in her previous role in the Home Office. She wasn't keen

on working with the Lib Dems, and you were in Government with them

together. I have always found her constructive and engaging. On the

broader point, Damian Green is right. People do want to see

politicians working together. We won't agree on everything, but it

seems sensible to work together where there is consensus. The NHS,

dealing with counterterrorism, and this isn't about pinching Labour

ideas. These are new challenges facing our country. So where we can

find common ground, it seems sensible to work together in the

national interest. Parties have worked together on things like

social care. The fact that nothing has been achieved very much doesn't

mean that you shouldn't try. I don't think anyone would disagree. It is

nothing new, the idea of different parties working together. We do that

on select committees. I have just launched an all party Parliamentary

group with Anna Soubry today, which we can talk more about. If it were

so imperative and important that we deal with these issues, which, by

the way, existed when she went through the door to ten Downing St,

why wasn't she calling for the cross-party consensus and for

different parties to work together when she gave a speech in front of

number ten? The reason was that she didn't feel the need. This idea that

she really does believe this, that it is a big imperative of our

Government, people will take that with a lorry load of salt. The

circumstances emanate from an election where she thought she would

have a big majority and she has come out without one. Let's leave it

there. Theresa May wants cross-party support on a range of issues, as we

have been discussing, but of course, the biggest task facing her

Government is negotiating the UK's withdrawal from the European Union.

from US President Donald Trump, who said a "very powerful" free

trade deal between America and the UK could be signed

But today the issue of reciprocal rights for EU and UK citizens

after Brexit has once again come to the fore.

The European Parliament's chief negotiator, Guy Verhofstadt,

and other leading MEPs, have said the UK offer on citizens'

rights risks creating "second-class citizenship" for EU residents here.

They imply that even Vote Leave, during the referendum

campaign, were offering a more generous settlement.

But the Government says the letter contains "a number of inaccuracies".

The letter from Mr Verhofstadt and colleagues threatens that MEPs

will veto any UK-EU deal if the offer for EU citizens

Closer to home, a number of MPs from across the Commons have formed

a new All-Party Parliamentary Group on EU Relations to scrutinise

the Government over the next two years.

Its members, like Anna Soubry, from Theresa May's own party,

and Labour's Chuka Umunna, here with us, say they should

be "active players" in the Brexit process.

Yesterday Lib Dem leadership hopeful Vince Cable said he was "beginning

to think Brexit may never happen," a thought which prompted

the Conservative MP Owen Paterson to describe Vince Cable as "behind

Chuka Umunna, this new group, it will be seen as a another front in

trying to stop Brexit by any means, and that is what it is. Geller

McBride -- by hard Brexiters. The three things that unite all of the

MPs involved, and a greater membership of this group, is that we

want to see the UK leaving with a deal. Leaving without one would be

absolutely appalling. Second, we think in the negotiation we should

have all options on the table, going confident, with an open mind. We are

the third biggest economy in the world and we should be ambitious.

And third, we want to see the close as possible relationship with the EU

once we have left. If you look at Anna and myself, we both voted to

trigger Article 50, so the idea that we want to rerun the referendum or

ignore the result, no, we don't. We want to ensure that we have a decent

deal for our constituents. That's why we have come together in the

national interest. Let's pinpoint what you mean. Do you want to stay

in the single market? Personally, I do. Does the group? The members want

to see options. Some people want to be in the customs union but not this

single market, some people the opposite, some people want both. You

will be advocating to remain in the single market? That is my personal

opinion. Wouldn't it be more honest for you in your personal capacity to

say, actually, I am campaigning to remain in the EU because staying in

the single market is effectively remaining in the EU? No, it isn't.

There are a number of countries that are not members of the EU but that

are part of the single market, such as Norway. As part of the European

Economic Area. Some people will say we have not properly left the EU and

you will still be under the jurisdiction of the European Court

of Justice, like Norway, and therefore you will be part of the

EU. In what way with the UK be taking back control? Three things

that are raised as problems with staying in the single market - free

movement, that is definitely an issue. At the moment, freedom of

movement is not unconditional. I believe we could have a system of

their movement, free movement of labour. You are right about taking

back control and asking about that. I will be interested to see what

Rishi Sunak says, but whoever you are, you want to access that market

and sell goods and services into it. And there's no reason we couldn't do

that. I don't disagree, but we would have to comply with rules, standards

and regulations if we had a free trade agreement. But your view... It

was proven a dead duck by David Cameron's negotiation, and it isn't

possible, it seems. Hang on, David Cameron was trying to keep us in the

EU. In the single market and tried to limit one of the four freedoms,

freedom of movement. We can come back to that in a moment. Rishi,

what is wrong with having an all-party group? Theresa May once

you have is consensus, parties coming together, and that is what --

wants to have a consensus. They can add to the debate, but we should be

honest about what is going on. Chuka Umunna is honest, he would like to

stay in the single market and amended the Queen 's speech to that

effect. I tried to! He didn't get it through. We have a clear position.

We voted to leave the EU. Staying inside the single market would be a

betrayal of that though because we would be subject to the free

movement of people, to the European Court of Justice and paying a large

amount of money into the EU budget. I think people would view that as

staying inside the EU, so we need to be clear about that. There are

enough that you can now wants to stay there, and he has made that

commitment to his constituents, but the rest of the country voted to

leave, and that means removing ourselves from those institutions.

On that point, of course, we want to have close relations with the EU

after we leave. There's no reason we can't. You don't have to be a member

of the single market to have access with it and to trade. Briefly,

because we have to move onto other things. David Davies says that your

Government's position is that you want to get exactly the same

benefits as you got a member. He said that while ago. Michel Barnier

has said you cannot get exactly the same benefits if you leave the

single market and the customs union. We want to replica late as closely

as possible the trading relationship -- to replicate as closely as

possible the trading relationship we have within the EU. Canada have just

removed 98% of tariffs. There is no reason why we, fifth largest economy

in the world and the EU's largest trading partner, no reason why we

couldn't do a good trading deal. Who doesn't want that to happen? Let's

look at the European Court of Justice, because Theresa May has

been very clear that part of leaving the EU must be an end to the

jurisdiction of the ECJ in any arbitration issue. A number of

senior Tories, your colleagues, if you're talking about clarity within

the party, have come out and said we should not be as rigid and absolute

as that. Are they right? We need to have our sovereignty, and

having a chord that is sovereign to ours, it is not a sensible position

to be in. And with respect to EU nationals, and this is where it has

come up today, the idea that after we leave the European Union a

foreign court would be supervising the rights to... So what are you

going to do over the institutions, like the nuclear joint bodies that

come under the jurisdiction of the ECJ? If we are voluntarily going to

enter into agreements with the European Union which have a set of

rules attached, of course, that is something we will choose to do where

it makes sense, but having an overarching institution sovereign

over our courts is clearly not a sustainable outcome. Let's talk

about trade, Chuka Umunna, because we had the conversation and comments

from Donald Trump that pretty soon after Brexit the US and the UK would

be able to sign up to an extremely large free trade deal. Nothing to

worry about? Well, let's see. If you look at the comments of the

president of the CBI on what Donald Trump is said, to paraphrase, the

president of the CBI, he said you do not agree free-trade agreements

through bear hug diplomacy, they are very hard-nosed... But there has got

to be a will, and Donald Trump has signalled it extremely publicly, and

that is a good thing, isn't it? Of course, because if we leave the EU,

Haiti knows we will need to do agreements! The European Union has a

huge number of agreements with third-party countries, not least

Japan, and we are walking away from that. If we take out those comments

from the president of the CBI, Minister David Lidington admitted it

would not replace the trade we are currently with the EU. The EU's own

forecast shows that 90% of global demand will be coming from outside

the EU, and we should be looking towards those other countries, and

it is not just the US. It is both. Of course, it is Australia, Canada,

and they have been positive about signing new free-trade agreements,

and you are right, it is not either/or, we can replicate the

arrangements we have with the EU through free-trade agreements. They

have said that is not possible, Michel has said that. But you want

to renegotiate arrangements within the single market, which people have

not said is possible. I should not have reopened that!

Now, in the run-up to the general election,

Labour promised in their manifesto to abolish university

tuition fees and reintroduce student maintenance grants.

But days before the poll, Jeremy Corbyn indicated

that he would want to go further and deal with all student debt.

Yesterday, Shadow Education Secretary Angela Rayner

told Andrew Marr that would cost up to ?100 billion,

and that it was an ambition for the party to announce

when they could afford it. This is what she had to say.

There's three things I call on the Government to do

They can reverse the maintenance grants, abolishing that -

that will help the most disadvantaged students.

They could stop and reduce the percentage rate that students

And they can ensure that the amount that they repay,

goes up in line with average earnings.

Their things that the Conservatives could do before September

Aren't you just spraying around huge spending promises too recklessly?

I mean, another ?100 billion on tuition fees

right at the last minute - that's some sofa you have to find.

Well, like you said, Jeremy said that that is an ambition,

it's something that he'd like to do, it's something that we will not

announce that we're doing unless we can afford to do that.

a senior editor at Novara Media who also lectures in politics.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. Abolishing student debt was not in

the Labour manifesto, did he miss be? I don't think he did, he is

addressing the fact that this country is becoming increasingly

debt burdened, so if you pay 9000 fees, you are looking at being

burdened with 50 grand debt, those from poorer backgrounds, that can go

up to 57 grand, and when you add onto that the increases in household

debt, credit cards and stuff, we are now reaching financial crisis

levels, right? But you are not paying that

money upfront, this is more like a loan that is repaid once you start

earning a certain amount of income, some of it will never be paid back,

so what you're not incurring debt in the same way as with credit cards.

In an ideal world, we would be met with fantastic jobs and we could in

the median wage straightaway, but that is not happening when graduates

get out of university. But then you don't repay if you don't earn a

salary. That seems to me to be a wild way to run an economy, right? I

am not an economic lecturer, but it seems to me if you have got a

funding model for higher education in which over a third of people are

never going to repay that money, that seems to be utterly bananas. So

you think it is suggesting, realistically, to abolish all

student debt, even if it is ?100 million? When you look at tax

collection priorities in this country, things are totally askew.

In 2016, Revenue and Customs announced there was 36 billion in

uncollected tax, and that is before you get to profit sharing. In other

European countries, there are different models. Germany, for

instance, does not charge tuition fees, and these countries also pay

their lecturers and other staff more, cleaners and catering staff

are paid more. They improve conditions for everyone. What is

your view about abolishing student debt? Is it realistic? Having it as

an aspiration has to be a goal for a Labour Party that wants to ensure

that, regardless of your creed, colour or background, you can get on

and it is not a barrier to higher education. But it has not proven to

be a barrier, poorer students are less likely to go to university

overall, but since tuition fees, introduced by the Labour government,

were brought in, it has not actually detailed poorer students - it is now

static, but it has gone up since 2013. Hang on just a minute, I was

about to make the point, about to make the point that what we expected

would happen, which was that you would see a reduction in the numbers

of people from lower income households, that did not happen,

because in constituencies like mine, where one in three is living in

poverty, people are not going to let that be a brake on their ambition.

But this issue about debt, you are absolutely right, Ash, people are

saddled with this for up to three decades before it is written off,

and that is a massive barrier to everything you want to do. But the

language you are using, people saddled with debt, is that a fair

representation of the current policy, which is, as I say, a loan

that is taken out, you do not pay upfront fees, you only pay when UN a

certain amount of money? For low income students, debts of ?57,000,

to me that is saddling young people with a huge level of debt. It is eye

watering, if you think about what young people are having to deal with

once they leave university, if the well-paid jobs were there for the

vast majority of them, to start repaying it back in a reasonable

fashion, because I take the point about interest rates, the loans are

not as expensive as on the market, but it is still off putting. You

have mentioned the fact that, the fact that people from less

disadvantaged backgrounds are more likely to go to university, the gap

has closed, we are in a better situation than Scotland, which

abolished tuition fees, where children from those backgrounds are

twice as likely to go to university in this country. The ?50,000 sounds

like a lot blog well, it is a lot! The benefit of being a graduate is

close to ?1 million, so that is what it should be set against, you will

earn considerably more than someone who does not. If you have the

ability to pay it, you should pay some back. It is progressive, it is

fair, it ensures universities are well funded. Let Ash come back on

that, because it is progressive in the sense that people have a long

time to pay it back. We have to make sure that corporations pay their

fair share, and to come back on the issue of stats, dropout rates have

increased since the introduction of fees. What are they? 6% of first

years will fail to move on to their second year. As a result of tuition

fees? There has been a 0.5% increase year-on-year in that number. When

you look at the attainment gap, especially pronounced for working

class and BAME students, that widens in higher education. So with all due

respect, your stats are meaningless. Was it a mistake for the coalition

government to abolish maintenance grants? Because that has been a big

deterrent to a lot of students from poorer backgrounds to try and reach

university in the first place? The issue with Gran says that when we

have a sum of money to allocate to benefit the highest number of

people, it means we have a cap on the number of people who we can

benefit. Transitioning to the system of loans means more people can go to

university. Ash mentioned Germany, Germany can afford a different

system because only 20% of German students go to university. In this

country, it is closer to half, so in a system with more people going to

university, we need a fair system to pay for it, and loans means we can

offer that opportunity to everyone who wants it.

Now, the summer recess is not far away,

but there's still a busy week ahead in Westminster.

Later this afternoon, Theresa May will update MPs

on the G20 summit that took place in Hamburg.

Tuesday, and as part of Theresa May's speech

on building a fairer Britain, the Government is expected

of employment practices in the modern economy.

On Wednesday, it's the return of the weekly showdown

between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn

It's also election time for the chairs

Thursday marks Theresa May's first year as Prime Minister

and will see the introduction of the Government's Repeal Bill,

formerly known as the Great Repeal Bill.

That seeks to copy and paste all existing EU law

On Friday, MPs return to their constituencies,

with just one more week to go before the House rises for summer recess.

Let's quickly pick up with one of those stories, 11 select committee

chairs are up for grabs, including the influential Treasury Committee,

until recently chaired by Andrew Tyrie. Who would you like to see as

chair? I haven't actually made up my mind, I am an undecided voter! There

has high quality candidates from across-the-board, both sides, Brexit

and Remain, if that is important. I am not sure it needs to be the most

important factor in it, you want someone who will hold the Government

to account, that is their role, and there are good examples of us

working cross and Parliamentary interests. Will you have Brexit at

the forefront of your mind when it comes to the chairs of these

committees? Nicky Morgan, one of your open Britain colleagues,

obviously thinking along the same lines as you. It is an important

issue for you, and I have said publicly I want to see Nicky on the

Treasury Select Committee, for reasons beyond Brexit. I used to

serve on the Treasury Select Committee, I would like to see a

woman chair it, I think she is the best person for the job, gender is

not striving my vote. Tom Tugendhat is standing for the Foreign Affairs

Select Committee, you could do some incredible things. Norman Lamb as

well. There are lots of you, what about the 2015 intake? Will there be

people from your intake? Tom Tugendhat and Johnny Mercer is

standing for chairman of the Defence Select Committee, I think that is

interesting, as an intake we are a relatively decent sized part of the

party, there should be some of the younger generation coming through.

We will know fairly shortly, I suppose, won't we? Thank you very

much to my guests. If you haven't had enough

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