11/07/2017 Daily Politics


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11/07/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by John Bird to discuss Theresa May's speech and to look at the Matthew Taylor review into working practises and the so-called gig economy.


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Good morning, and welcome to The Daily Politics.

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Theresa May visited Donald Trump back in January, and invited him

:00:45.:00:47.

for a state visit to Britain - today, we understand it will go

:00:48.:00:50.

The Prime Minister has been launching a government review

:00:51.:00:54.

into working practices - so, what will it mean for those

:00:55.:00:57.

at the bottom end of the labour market, and does it go far enough?

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MPs say they're facing increasing levels of abuse and intimidation -

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some say they're now living in "genuine fear".

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And how long do most prime ministers stay behind that famous black door?

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We'll be taking a look at some of the shortest and the longest

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All that in the next 45 minutes of end-to-end political action

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to whet your appetite for the tennis.

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And with me to discuss all of it is the anti-poverty

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campaigner, crossbench peer and Big Issue founder John Bird.

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First today, Donald Trump could be coming to Britain next year,

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The US president accepted the Queen's invitation for him

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to come on a state visit when Theresa May visited

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Washington in January, but there's since been little public

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discussion about the trip, leading to speculation it

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The two met at the G20 gathering of world leaders

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Mr Trump said he and the Prime Minister had developed a "very

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special relationship", and he expected a post-Brexit trade

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deal to happen between the two countries very quickly.

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Mrs May said that dates for his visit were still being looked at.

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So, we now expect it to be sometime next year,

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and it will be a huge event when it happens.

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Let's talk now to the BBC's deputy political editor, John Pienaar.

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Have you got a date in your diary for 2018? I have got 2018 in the

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diary, but even that is in pencil! You never quite know. Normally you

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would know about a big state visit like this well in a dance, but you

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do not often see the words Donald Trump and normal in the same

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sentence. Indeed you don't. It was going to be this autumn, and now it

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has been pushed back to next year - will it happen at all? We know that

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there probably would be major protests, something he did not want,

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and also, 2 million people signing a petition calling for his invites to

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be rescinded. I think the protests would be an absolute certainty. The

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visit you could scarcely imagine would be put off indefinitely.

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Although the Prime Minister first announced to visit back in January,

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and she was very keen to keep on the right side of Donald Trump, and that

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remains the case. Lots of reasons for that. Major partner in a

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post-Brexit world, in particular a trade deal, is a very high priority.

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She wants to stay on the right side of Donald Trump. And this is part of

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that. But there are those complications. And what about things

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like policing you were at the G20, what was the reaction there? Well,

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the reaction was, as you saw on the news, and heard on the radio,

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running skirmishes between police and demonstrators through the entire

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G20. You would hope that Donald Trump, when he comes, will not be

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accompanied by precisely that kind of scene, but it will be enormously

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controversial, and clearly you could imagine a reticence on his part to

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face all of that, although the White House denies that that is the reason

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for the postponement. He has been invited, he should come? This is

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diplomatic, it is nothing to do with politics, it is nothing to do with

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anything, other than the fact that Theresa May wants to make the most

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of her premiership. And she needs the old Alliance, the people who

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saved us in the Second World War, and we shouldn't forget that, even

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though this man is from ugly the most peculiar person who has ever

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held that office. They have had some pretty strange and some horrible

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presidents, you know, Kings in fact, because they're monarchs. People

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like Andrew Jackson was an absolute scumbag. You look at all of the kind

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of things, Ronald Reagan wasn't exactly playing the full hand. This

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guy almost seems to be all the worst things that you could put into one

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hand. But they have a special relationship, according to the White

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House and probably according to No 10? When the UK lost America, we had

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a king who was losing the plot, and in many senses, the war still went

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on, the separation still went on. Things happen in politics sometimes

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with the most god-awful people, and this man is probably one of them.

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You mentioned the trade deal between the two of them, that is going to be

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crucial, this is going to happen after we have left the EU, but that

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will be part of cementing that special relationship? Enormous

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priority. Andrew Jackson, by the way, was a general who confronted

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the British, and he was given to pointing his pistol at people. We

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haven't had that from Donald Trump so far! Donald Trump has said there

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will be a trade deal very, very quickly, which was exactly what

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Theresa May was hoping to hear. Just how quickly that actually means, we

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don't know. These trade deals, on the best day, can take years to

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conclude. This will be bilateral... Hamsik he is in favour of bilateral

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deals? Of course, America first is the motto of Donald Trump, so you

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would not think it would be easy for Britain. Will you be welcoming him?

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I would like to get him, and grab him and take him someplace real,

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rather than a golf course. I do think that we seem to have more and

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more people who are just so, so outside of reality, and this man

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takes a lot of beating. Time now for our daily quiz, and it

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might cheer up the Prime Minister. She's reached something

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of a milestone today, equalling the term in office of one

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of her predecessors. Is it a) Gordon Brown,

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b) William Pitt the Younger, c) Alec Douglas-Home,

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or d) fictional prime Later on in the show,

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John will hopefully give us John Birt, that is, not John

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Pienaar. Although he may know it, too.

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Last October the Prime Minister commissioned the former Labour

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adviser Matthew Taylor to report on modern working practices -

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specifically, how to ensure a rapidly changing economy doesn't

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disadvantage certain kinds of workers.

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Well, this morning, Theresa May has joined Matthew Taylor

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He says the UK has a "great record on creating jobs" but hasn't paid

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enough attention to the "quality" of those jobs.

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Mr Taylor says it's time for an end to the "cash in hand" economy,

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which is worth up to ?6 billion a year - much of it untaxed.

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He says payment for traditional cash jobs like window cleaning should now

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be made digitally. He's also recommending that people

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who work in the gig economy - that's certain kinds of freelance

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or short-term contract work - be classed as workers

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and not self-employed. That change in classification

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for more than one million people would mean some firms could have

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to pay millions of pounds in national insurance

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contributions every year. However, he doesn't call -

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as some unions wanted - for the banning of zero-hours

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contracts. Nor does he argue fees that workers

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pay to take employers The Government, of course,

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does not have to accept all of the recommendations

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in the review, but Theresa May says reforming work practices involves

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finding "the right balance Meanwhile, the Government has

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reached a settlement on teachers' pay in England and Wales,

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which will mean a real-terms cut for most teachers as they're limited

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to a 1% pay rise over the next year, although those at the bottom

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of the scale can receive a 2% rise. by Labour's Chi Onwurah -

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she's the Shadow Minister For Industrial Strategy -

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and by the Conservative What can you confidently expect to

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change in your working conditions? I think you can expect the Government

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to look carefully at this report. We commissioned it because we recognise

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that people working in the so-called gig economy do not have the rights

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that other people do. The flexible book economy is a good thing because

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it creates jobs but we need to make sure people are looked after. Things

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like having them paid national insurance but also get benefits like

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sick pay and holiday pay I think is a really interesting idea. He also

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says that people working for, say, Uber, are definitely getting the

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minimum wage. The minimum wager has gone up by 26% under the

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Conservatives. I am proud of that but I am keen to make sure that

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everybody, including people in the gig economy, benefit from that

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enormous increase in the minimum wage. But they will not necessarily

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accept all of these recommendations, the Government? That's right. We are

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hoping, by the way, that there will be constructive engagement from the

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Labour side as well. And I hope many of these ideas will get taken

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forward. But you have got to be very careful to make sure the balance is

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struck between giving extra rights to low paid workers but not

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destroying jobs at the same time. Over the summer, I think the

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Government will be making sure that it strikes the right balance. Most

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workers in the gig economy, as independent contractors, have no

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protection against unfair dismissal, no right to redundancy payments, no

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right to receive the minimum wage, you used the example of Uber, no

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right to paid holiday and no bite to sickness pay. If their status is

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reclassified, as Matthew Taylor suggests, will they get all those

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things? That is what the Government is going to look at. What do you

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think? If somebody is in paid employment with one employer who

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directs their activity, to all intents and purposes, they are that

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person's boss, then in my view, yes, they should get those rights. We

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have to draw the line be somebody who is essentially an employee

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versus someone who is a genuine freelance tractor working for lots

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of different people. We have got to draw the line in exactly the right

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place. Which part of the report, Chi Onwurah, would a Labour government

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implement? The fundamental principle is that everyone is entitled to a

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fair and decent, who is that they should be treated as human beings

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and not as cogs in a machine. That is the fundamentals. The problem is

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that, regardless of what Chris has been saying, for the last seven

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years, we have not seen that, we have seen the greatest undermining

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of working rights for decades. Which rights have been undermined? For

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example, no access to tribunal fees, meaning that so many people can't

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establish what their rights are, they can't get access to justice, if

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you like. That was really a very underhand move by the Government in

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order to prevent workers from establishing their rights. So,

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that's one right which Matthew Taylor has recommended should be

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reinstated. In terms of jobs that you mentioned, do you accept that

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there has been a massive move in job creation over the last seven years,

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it's not the Government, it is business, but you could say

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government created the conditions, that is a good thing? It's good to

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have jobs, but jobs should be a route out of poverty. What this

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government has done is changing that, so it is no longer at route

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out of poverty, because there are so many low-paid jobs. We see people,

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nurses who are working but who are having to use food banks. I have

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constituents having to have two low-paid jobs to make ends meet and

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at the same time, not having the protection that you spoke about. I

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have got to put the facts on record. We have created 2 million new jobs,

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unemployment is at a 40-year low... People are poor. The minimum wage

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has gone up by a staggering 26% under the Conservatives. And the

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poorest paid 6 million have been lifted out of income tax entirely.

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Basic rate taxpayers, including nurses and teachers and fireman, are

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all paying ?1000 a year less in tax. You have got to put all of that

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together. Given the mess we inherited, and given what is

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happening in the rest of Europe, that is a fantastic achievement on

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jobs, in very difficult circumstances. People are on average

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?2600 a year poorer because of what you have done, tax increases, VAT,

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you increased that, and also the absence of any wage rises amongst

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both the public and the private sector. We have said that we will

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put in place a ?10 minimum wage, you can't match that because you're

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actually not even going to meet the promises that you have made. So,

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people need to share this prosperity that you're talking about - and they

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don't. Let's talk about another aspect of

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protections and rights. There has been a lot of debate between the two

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main parties about zero-hours contracts. Do you think there are a

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good thing and should stay? 75% of the new jobs are full-time job. Only

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3% are zero-hours contracts. There was a survey recently amongst

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McDonald's employees, who are many of them on these flexible contract,

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an 80% found it suited their lifestyle. What was wrong was when

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their work so-called exclusive contracts where someone was tied to

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a job, couldn't get employment elsewhere despite being guaranteed

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no work, and we legislated to ban those, and it was the right thing to

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do. Do you accept that many workers want that flexibility? Very strong

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position it will evidence that says that with the right protections

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people like that. -- strong statistical evidence. We want to

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retain flexibility. Can't zero-hours contracts work if you have the right

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protection? Zero-hours contracts give the flexibility and the control

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of that flexibility to the employer. We look at the New Zealand model

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that allows for flexibility and gives money hours. Is possible. --

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minimum hours. Jobs are the best way of lifting people out of poverty but

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only have the right protections? Jobs can take you places and leave

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you there, and that is why at The Big Issue, we are always trying to

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move people on. You really have to see jobs as a stage up. Where I'd

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agree with most of the ugly, left and right, is if someone said to me,

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I want a job, and I'm waiting around, can you give me a job? And

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applied for the job. I would probably put them with the rest of

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the pile, but if they said to me, I'm working in Poundland, I don't

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like the hours or what I'm doing, but I'm doing it because I have got

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to do something to keep myself hail and hearty. I would pick that person

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because that is someone who is going to make the most of it. Most of the

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Poundland jobs are for people who are stuck, and we have to do

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something about that. The people who are stuck, and for people who want

:17:52.:17:57.

to grow and progress, is it right that gig economy companies are the

:17:58.:18:01.

ones that should be paying National Insurance contributions, and will

:18:02.:18:06.

the Government make that change? If someone is an employee, and people

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who work for Uber more than 20 or 30 hours a week are, we need to look at

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that. We need to make sure that national insurance is paid. We have

:18:20.:18:23.

a massive deficit we need to close, and it is only fair that those

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workers get the kinds of rights you mentioned, such as sick pay and

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holiday pay. We need to make sure the workers have those protections.

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We're here, and I hope Labour are as well, to stand up for those people

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and make sure they are protected. If we push too far, the jobs miracle

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may be put at risk. Mathieu Taylor also said we should end the cash in

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hand economy. A lot of people do that - do you think it should stop?

:18:58.:19:03.

The cash economy has been much exaggerated. I think people will

:19:04.:19:06.

continue to use cash. The issue is when taxes and pensions

:19:07.:19:12.

contributions are paid. Some of the points that Mathieu Taylor is making

:19:13.:19:16.

around using technology to empower workers so that when you pay people,

:19:17.:19:32.

there is a pension contribution. Technology has been about taking

:19:33.:19:35.

power away from working people, but Labour will make sure that

:19:36.:19:40.

technology works to empower people. Some of this is based on the working

:19:41.:19:48.

practices of companies such as Uber. One of your colleagues today said

:19:49.:19:57.

that it wasn't morally acceptable - do you agree? She says their working

:19:58.:20:01.

practices are not morally acceptable. It is really important

:20:02.:20:10.

to look at what the companies are doing and how they are treating

:20:11.:20:17.

their working people. I say that Uber and other companies deliver

:20:18.:20:20.

real benefits, and particularly if you're a woman on her own... Summit

:20:21.:20:26.

is not morally unacceptable? You want the services, but you want to

:20:27.:20:28.

make sure that their working practices are the right ones. You

:20:29.:20:38.

need to talk to the drivers. If you do, probably 50% think it is good.

:20:39.:20:44.

We have got to lift the Uber economy up. That is a fair point, John, and

:20:45.:20:50.

that is hopefully what this will do. 100% of Uber drivers have chosen to

:20:51.:20:57.

do that. We could do the whole programme on this, and we will at

:20:58.:20:59.

some point! But with MPs now regularly reporting

:21:00.:21:00.

cases of serious abuse, has the normal rough and tumble

:21:01.:21:03.

of political life turned Well, that's the subject

:21:04.:21:06.

of a debate to be held in the Commons later this week,

:21:07.:21:10.

but here's the Conservative MP Sheryl Murray asking about it

:21:11.:21:12.

at Prime Minister's Questions last Over the past months, I've had

:21:13.:21:15.

swastikas carved into posters, social media posts like "burn

:21:16.:21:18.

the witch" and "stab the C", people putting Labour Party posters

:21:19.:21:21.

on my home, photographing them and pushing them

:21:22.:21:25.

through my letterbox, and someone even urinated

:21:26.:21:29.

on my office door - Can my right honourable friend

:21:30.:21:31.

suggest what can be done to stop these things, which,

:21:32.:21:41.

Mr Speaker, may well be putting off good people

:21:42.:21:43.

from And at the weekend, the Labour MP

:21:44.:21:45.

Yvette Cooper gave a speech about the "vitriolic abuse"

:21:46.:21:53.

being dished out to many We're joined now by the MP who's

:21:54.:21:55.

called this week's debate - he's Simon Hart -

:21:56.:22:01.

and by Tulip Siddiq, who has said female MPs need

:22:02.:22:03.

training to deal with what are known We've heard a lot about this over

:22:04.:22:17.

the last few years. Simon, you have this abuse on Wednesday about abuse

:22:18.:22:22.

faced by candidates in elections - how is this different from previous

:22:23.:22:28.

campaigns? Between 2015 and 2017, 2015 was a civilised election. You

:22:29.:22:34.

had a passionate debate, shook hands and went to the pub. It has become

:22:35.:22:38.

more personal. The purpose of this is not to provide an MP and

:22:39.:22:44.

opportunity to whinge... It might be genuine. Possibly, but it is members

:22:45.:22:53.

of the public - people who want to put a poster up or make a donation -

:22:54.:22:58.

they are being abused, getting broken windows and they are being

:22:59.:23:02.

driven away from politics at a time when we need them. Who is doing it?

:23:03.:23:07.

You say it was civilised in 2015, so what changed in two years? There is

:23:08.:23:20.

a partisan element. There is quite a lot of anti-Semitism, homophobia,

:23:21.:23:23.

sexism. It is not just left versus right. In my experience, it has been

:23:24.:23:31.

typified by people feeling they have been given permission by the silence

:23:32.:23:37.

from political leaders to engage in this without repercussions. Is there

:23:38.:23:44.

a sense that Momentum, this grassroots organisation backed by

:23:45.:23:47.

Jeremy Corbyn, feels it has a licence to be abusive to people who

:23:48.:23:52.

don't agree with their view? I think that is absolutely ridiculous, and I

:23:53.:23:55.

think it's an easy way to cover up the fact that things are getting

:23:56.:24:00.

worse. I have been abused since 2010 online, long before most people knew

:24:01.:24:04.

who Jeremy Corbyn was, and it was directed at me, mostly because I was

:24:05.:24:09.

a female politician. In the last two years, it has gotten worse, but it

:24:10.:24:14.

tends to get worse around major events. Around Brexit, it got worse,

:24:15.:24:19.

around Donald Trump's election, and during the general election. There

:24:20.:24:25.

are people who are tweeting saying things like, you can't be a mother

:24:26.:24:29.

and an MP, and then a string of swear words. Sorry, don't blame that

:24:30.:24:35.

on Momentum. There was our online internet trolls. Yvette

:24:36.:24:46.

Cooper had someone tweet about her about being in a first-class

:24:47.:24:53.

carriage on a train. Who is that, in your mind, and what are they trying

:24:54.:24:57.

to say? I don't know. I could give you an example of someone who

:24:58.:25:06.

tweeted me yesterday, saying, go back to where you belong, Bongo-

:25:07.:25:14.

Bongo - land. I don't blame Theresa May for one tweet sent by someone

:25:15.:25:18.

who vote Conservative. It is easy to blame leaders for what people are

:25:19.:25:26.

doing in their name. Are left-wingers getting it from the

:25:27.:25:33.

right as much as the converse? I think it has played a significant

:25:34.:25:40.

part, but it is not exclusive. Political leaders have a unique

:25:41.:25:44.

platform to stand up and say, not in my name, not in my party's name.

:25:45.:25:48.

Anyone who does this in the name of me and my party has no place on the

:25:49.:25:53.

political stage. At the moment, there has been silence on this

:25:54.:25:56.

topic. Tomorrow and the debate this week is about rectifying that and

:25:57.:26:03.

forcing leaders to say, this will not be accepted. Jeremy Corbyn

:26:04.:26:06.

tweeted in 2016, I completely condemn abuse of MPs of any kind. He

:26:07.:26:13.

said on Question Time, there should be no online abuse, no abuse in

:26:14.:26:19.

political debate. I don't make personal attacks on anyone. Yvette

:26:20.:26:30.

Cooper has stipulated the left versus Right campaign, and how

:26:31.:26:35.

Labour if it wanted to be credible needed to address this. What is

:26:36.:26:39.

Jeremy Corbyn doing about it? What is he doing about it? He spoke up

:26:40.:26:45.

during the election very strongly. He personally tweeted when I was

:26:46.:26:48.

getting abuse saying it was unacceptable and that we should be

:26:49.:26:54.

forcing women are flying, and he stood in solidarity. I think a

:26:55.:26:57.

deafening silence is absolutely the wrong phrase to use. Is he giving

:26:58.:27:03.

enough? Theresa May said yesterday that she was surprised by Jeremy

:27:04.:27:10.

Corbyn's fell year to condemn vandalism. There are examples of

:27:11.:27:15.

swastikas being drawn on Conservative posters. Should he do

:27:16.:27:21.

more? I think he has done plenty. He rang me personally after the abuse.

:27:22.:27:27.

I sort of feel we are missing the point by blaming leaders of

:27:28.:27:31.

political parties. The fact is, Twitter and Facebook have to take

:27:32.:27:37.

responsibility. If they want us to use their networks, they should take

:27:38.:27:41.

responsibility. Facebook was very quick to get rid of a picture of a

:27:42.:27:46.

woman breast-feeding, but when I reported a fake account set up in my

:27:47.:27:49.

name, two weeks later I got a response. They should be acting

:27:50.:27:53.

faster. Therefore, and we have had a lot of female MPs who have long had

:27:54.:27:57.

vitriolic abuse against them, so a missed origin this -- a misogynist

:27:58.:28:06.

strain. You can't change a culture that has happened for years. Is

:28:07.:28:17.

absolutely not. We need to measure the extent of this and the impact it

:28:18.:28:21.

is having. Rain-mac isn't it to do with the fact that ten years ago you

:28:22.:28:27.

didn't have these means where every little person in every little

:28:28.:28:32.

corner, every little freak and weirdo, as well as the general

:28:33.:28:36.

public, having the chance to actually grabbed the debate and to

:28:37.:28:43.

do things against people like yourself? And we really need to be

:28:44.:28:48.

thinking about this kind of freedom - is it a freedom to be used

:28:49.:28:55.

properly or improperly? There is existing legislation. If you want to

:28:56.:28:59.

take someone to task, it is expensive and risky, so people are

:29:00.:29:03.

disinclined to do it. I agree about social media, because this extends

:29:04.:29:08.

beyond the bullying of MPs. It is about online bullying in general.

:29:09.:29:12.

There will come a time when we will look back at this because we will

:29:13.:29:14.

have invented the means of controlling this horrible, horrible

:29:15.:29:21.

manifestation of ugliness. The laws exist, they have just not been

:29:22.:29:25.

implemented as much. And you are calling for training? Training, but

:29:26.:29:30.

also Twitter and Facebook need to take responsibility. If there is a

:29:31.:29:36.

need for a change in legislation, perhaps this is one point on which

:29:37.:29:42.

Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn can be in the same voting lobby.

:29:43.:29:44.

Cross-party consensus after all! Now, over the last 50 years,

:29:45.:29:48.

Britain has become a richer place. But even in one of the wealthiest

:29:49.:29:51.

countries in the world, one in five of us is classed

:29:52.:29:54.

as living in poverty. It's the sort of thing you might

:29:55.:30:14.

expect from the Victorians, a map of London, colour-coded by area

:30:15.:30:19.

according to wealth or poverty. The black colour was what would you

:30:20.:30:23.

define as the worst colour back then, and that was describe as

:30:24.:30:28.

vicious. Although apparently, vicious did not mean that they would

:30:29.:30:35.

attack you, it just meant they were prone to vice, drinking, gambling,

:30:36.:30:42.

that kind of stuff. Lunesdale the wealthy shipping magnate Charles

:30:43.:30:47.

Booz commissioned the maps in the 1880s, updating them ten years

:30:48.:30:51.

later. They revised them by accompanying bobbies on the beat,

:30:52.:30:57.

walking the area, so again, more experts. People who would walk

:30:58.:31:01.

around the area on a regular basis and they knew what a street was

:31:02.:31:05.

like, if it had woken windows, if the children had mud on their faces.

:31:06.:31:10.

They knew it would not necessarily be that salubrious place. Booth

:31:11.:31:15.

found more than 30% of Londoners were living in poverty at the end of

:31:16.:31:19.

the 19th-century. The stats have changed since then, but so is the

:31:20.:31:23.

way poverty is measured. Absolute poverty is the fraction of people

:31:24.:31:26.

who have an income below a given line. A couple of hundred pounds a

:31:27.:31:34.

week, for example. And that line goes up with inflation but doesn't

:31:35.:31:39.

change other than that. A relative poverty line is a line which changes

:31:40.:31:45.

depending on how rich the whole country is. So, it's 60% of the

:31:46.:31:51.

middle income. As the country gets richer, the poverty line goes up,

:31:52.:31:57.

and therefore, it is a measure of inequality between middle income and

:31:58.:32:01.

low income people. Latest official figures suggest that after housing

:32:02.:32:07.

costs, 20% of people in the UK live in absolute poverty, while 22% of

:32:08.:32:11.

people live in relative poverty. Over the next few years, projections

:32:12.:32:18.

show some increases in poverty. That's partly because employment

:32:19.:32:24.

gains which have happened over the last few years are expected to peter

:32:25.:32:32.

out. And cuts to working age benefits are really falling upon low

:32:33.:32:37.

income families with children, and that suppresses their incomes as

:32:38.:32:40.

well as. It was cuts to some benefits that led Iain Duncan Smith

:32:41.:32:44.

to resign as Work and Pensions Secretary last year. But before

:32:45.:32:47.

that, he changed the way child poverty was measured. The previous

:32:48.:32:52.

Vale government having defined a child is being poor when it lives in

:32:53.:32:55.

a household with an income below 60% of the UK average. My problem with

:32:56.:33:02.

the 60% line was, it the only told me one thing, which is, you are

:33:03.:33:06.

below it all you are above it. What I was trying to do was to say, look,

:33:07.:33:11.

this is something where we need to say, what is the measure going to

:33:12.:33:13.

be? Educational failure, dysfunctional family background,

:33:14.:33:19.

family break down, find really good measurements, and then we can begin

:33:20.:33:23.

to have a framework to say, now we know what we have to do, to get that

:33:24.:33:29.

family, sort it, and moving out - that's the key, moving out. Dealing

:33:30.:33:32.

with the causes of poverty might be more complicated than measuring it.

:33:33.:33:37.

Even the Victorians realised there is more to it than just income. John

:33:38.:33:42.

Bird, what does living in poverty in Britain in 2017 look like to you? To

:33:43.:33:50.

me, it looks like people who are stuck on a very, very small amount

:33:51.:33:58.

of money, who are not able to take advantage of some of the things,

:33:59.:34:02.

like democracy. Poverty, if you're in poverty, you are not in

:34:03.:34:05.

democracy, because democracy doesn't cover poverty. You are marginalised

:34:06.:34:11.

in every way? Yeah, you're not involved in the debate, largely

:34:12.:34:15.

because you are in some senses worn down, eroded, by what is happening

:34:16.:34:20.

in life. You are living a stopgap life, you're living a life where

:34:21.:34:24.

there is very little future and there's very little opportunity.

:34:25.:34:29.

Your children are not preparing for higher education or further

:34:30.:34:33.

education, so what happens is that you are stuck, and it seems that all

:34:34.:34:40.

the cards are stacked against you. And is the way out of that trap, as

:34:41.:34:46.

it seems, the way you have describe it, is money the answer? Money is

:34:47.:34:51.

the answer, but it's not necessarily just to dump a couple of thousands

:34:52.:34:58.

pounds a week on people. We have got to go back. What we have got is, we

:34:59.:35:02.

have got a failing system of government which is largely

:35:03.:35:04.

responsible for this almost institutional poverty. If you look

:35:05.:35:10.

at the way that we respond to children and families in need and

:35:11.:35:13.

children who were in abuse, we take them out, we put them into care, we

:35:14.:35:18.

spend thousands of pounds, maybe ?3000 a week on them, we spend ?1

:35:19.:35:23.

million on them... And stick and you put them back in that failing home?

:35:24.:35:28.

At the age of 16, they come out with the reading age of 12-year-old. You

:35:29.:35:32.

have schools system which fails 37% of the children... Even though there

:35:33.:35:38.

have been improvements and there are more children in our schools? Yes,

:35:39.:35:44.

these are Justine Greening scenes figures, I thought it was 30, she

:35:45.:35:49.

says it is 37. But the point is, if you have a mechanism, a government

:35:50.:35:53.

that cannot respond to that, that uses social security not as social

:35:54.:35:59.

opportunity... Tax credits, for instance, were you a fan of those,

:36:00.:36:03.

which Gordon Brown believed would help families who were just about

:36:04.:36:11.

managing? I am a great believer in using social security for social

:36:12.:36:15.

opportunity. I don't think there is enough given to get people out of

:36:16.:36:21.

the quagmire of poverty, lack of education, lack of... If you go back

:36:22.:36:26.

to the school, the failing 37%, they're the people who fill up our

:36:27.:36:30.

prisons and our long-term unemployed, the people who fill up

:36:31.:36:34.

the A department, who use it as a drop-in. How helpful are these

:36:35.:36:39.

measures of poverty, absolute and relative poverty? The figures are

:36:40.:36:44.

quite stark, 22% living in relative poverty. But is it, as the

:36:45.:36:47.

contributor said in the film, more about inequality, as parts of the

:36:48.:36:52.

population get richer, begging those at the bottom look even poorer, is

:36:53.:36:58.

it a helpful measure? I'm not too happy on the way people measure

:36:59.:37:03.

poverty. I think the way you measure poverty is, you measure it on the

:37:04.:37:07.

basis of the individual, what can the individual do in their lives to

:37:08.:37:11.

change their lives, to feed their children, to improve their children?

:37:12.:37:14.

I don't think any of the devices that have been used, even those

:37:15.:37:21.

which were mentioned, they were very broad brush. We tend to reduce

:37:22.:37:26.

people to statistics. What we should be doing is, not creating all of

:37:27.:37:29.

these ghettos, like we did at Grenfell Tower, pushing people into

:37:30.:37:33.

social security, rather than using it as an opportunity, a way of

:37:34.:37:39.

getting out of poverty. It was invented for that purpose. So, we

:37:40.:37:44.

get this really, really weird world, a lot of the poverty could be

:37:45.:37:47.

changed if the Government changed the way in which it dealt with

:37:48.:37:52.

people in need and Hilton them so that they can get out of need and

:37:53.:37:56.

instead of being rescued, they could themselves become rescuers. While we

:37:57.:38:02.

have been on air, the Prime Minister has been speaking, as we said

:38:03.:38:06.

earlier, at the launch of the review into working practices. Let's take a

:38:07.:38:10.

look between the nature of employment is central both to our

:38:11.:38:13.

national economic success, but also also to the lives we all lead. From

:38:14.:38:18.

the end of our childhood, until the years of retirement, if we don't win

:38:19.:38:22.

the National Lottery jackpot, the vast majority of us will expect to

:38:23.:38:27.

devote at least half of our waking hours on most days of the week to

:38:28.:38:34.

work. A good job can be a genuine vocation, providing intellectual and

:38:35.:38:36.

personal fulfilment as well as economic security. With good work

:38:37.:38:42.

can come dignity and a sense of self-worth. It can promote good

:38:43.:38:45.

mental and physical health and emotional well-being. Theresa May,

:38:46.:38:50.

responding to the report she commissioned into working practices.

:38:51.:38:56.

Now, it's time to find out the answer to our quiz.

:38:57.:38:59.

And today the Prime Minister has reached something of a milestone,

:39:00.:39:02.

equalling the term in office of one of her predecessors.

:39:03.:39:04.

A) Gordon Brown, b) William Pitt the Younger c) Alec Douglas-Home,

:39:05.:39:09.

or d) fictional prime minister Jim Hacker?

:39:10.:39:10.

But unlike Theresa May, he never won an election. Well, it is right to!

:39:11.:39:28.

Yes, Theresa May has today clocked up 363 days in office,

:39:29.:39:31.

meaning she draws level with Alec Douglas-Home.

:39:32.:39:33.

I wonder if they've had a whip-round and got her a cake.

:39:34.:39:36.

Let's have a look at some of the shortest and longest

:39:37.:39:39.

The shortest serving Prime Minister ever was George Canning,

:39:40.:39:42.

who lasted a total of 119 day before his death in August 1827,

:39:43.:39:45.

although his successor, the Viscount Goderich,

:39:46.:39:47.

Unable to hold Canning's coalition of Tories and Whigs together,

:39:48.:39:53.

In the 20th century, while Sir Alec Douglas-Home lasted

:39:54.:40:02.

just 363 days in Downing Street before losing the 1964

:40:03.:40:05.

In fact, there was a shorter residency of No 10.

:40:06.:40:09.

Bonar Law managed only 211 days in office because of ill health,

:40:10.:40:12.

despite winning a clear majority in the 1922 election.

:40:13.:40:14.

Winston Churchill was resident in Downing Street for eight

:40:15.:40:16.

years and 239 days, although that was split

:40:17.:40:18.

He was surpassed by Tony Blair, who lasted for a grand total of 10

:40:19.:40:30.

years and 56 days before he decided to hand over to Gordon Brown.

:40:31.:40:33.

Yet even he did not manage to overtake Margaret Thatcher's term

:40:34.:40:36.

She is still only the seventh longest-serving Prime Minister,

:40:37.:40:40.

as the record is still held by the first official resident

:40:41.:40:44.

of No 10 Downing Street, Robert Walpole.

:40:45.:40:49.

He served for a total of 20 years and 314 days until -

:40:50.:40:52.

at the great age of 65 - he was considered too

:40:53.:40:55.

old by his opponents to carry on in office.

:40:56.:40:59.

Well, we're joined now by Catherine Haddon,

:41:00.:41:03.

who is the resident historian at the Institute for Government.

:41:04.:41:08.

Is longevity a sign of success for a Prime Minister? Not necessarily. I

:41:09.:41:14.

think there are several ways of characterising success. It is really

:41:15.:41:17.

the modern premierships, it is things like party management, public

:41:18.:41:23.

persona, the policies which are well remembered, and then finally,

:41:24.:41:29.

intellectual matters. So, you would automatically think, they must have

:41:30.:41:33.

been successful if they keep winning elections? Absolutely, and for that

:41:34.:41:37.

reason, staying in office for a long period of time, but there's many

:41:38.:41:42.

factors coming into that. Some very well remembered Prime ministers who

:41:43.:41:45.

lasted only a short period, they might be well remembered for

:41:46.:41:52.

failings. With talking almost a year of Theresa May's premiership. And a

:41:53.:41:59.

lot has happened! It has. But you look back two years, and we had

:42:00.:42:04.

David Cameron on the first Conservative majority since John

:42:05.:42:07.

Major. He looked in a very commanding position, he had a strong

:42:08.:42:10.

Chancellor. The Conservative Party were very grateful for the wind that

:42:11.:42:14.

they had. He had managed to coalition government, and he seemed

:42:15.:42:17.

to be developing his own arsenal premiership. And then... It was all

:42:18.:42:24.

over, after the referendum! The idea of having a Prime Minister for 20

:42:25.:42:28.

years seems alien to us, do you think that could happen again? I

:42:29.:42:33.

would never rule anything out. As your graphic showed, if you look

:42:34.:42:38.

back to the 19th century, the 18th-century, we had a lot of

:42:39.:42:41.

premierships could last a year, maybe a bit longer and a lot of

:42:42.:42:45.

turnover. Then you have periods where you do have one which lasts

:42:46.:42:49.

for a period of time, perhaps because there is something which is

:42:50.:42:54.

going on, a war or some big policy area, or a lack of contenders. That

:42:55.:42:57.

is the other thing, the other contenders. Do you think longevity

:42:58.:43:02.

is a good thing? If you are in for a long time, you can affect real

:43:03.:43:07.

change? My problem is this, as we witnessed earlier over the Taylor

:43:08.:43:13.

report, that there are these entrenched as Asians, and often, the

:43:14.:43:19.

truth is in the middle. So I'm much more interested in looking at

:43:20.:43:25.

coalitions. I think we need a coalition now, I think we need a

:43:26.:43:28.

cabinet of talents, because I think we are in the greatest place oddly

:43:29.:43:32.

we have been in since the Second World War. And you would like to see

:43:33.:43:37.

a grand coalition? I would like to see a grand coalition. A grand

:43:38.:43:40.

coalition we three are! Thank you very much for coming in today.

:43:41.:43:43.

Thanks to all our guests, especially John Bird.

:43:44.:43:48.

I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage

:43:49.:43:51.

Jo Coburn is joined by John Bird, crossbench peer and founder of the Big Issue, to discuss Theresa May's speech and to look at the Matthew Taylor review into working practises and the so-called gig economy. They also discuss online abuse many MPs suffered during the general election and what can be done to prevent it in the future.