11/07/2017 Daily Politics


11/07/2017

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Good morning, and welcome to The Daily Politics.

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Theresa May visited Donald Trump back in January, and invited him

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for a state visit to Britain - today, we understand it will go

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The Prime Minister has been launching a government review

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into working practices - so, what will it mean for those

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at the bottom end of the labour market, and does it go far enough?

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MPs say they're facing increasing levels of abuse and intimidation -

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some say they're now living in "genuine fear".

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And how long do most prime ministers stay behind that famous black door?

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We'll be taking a look at some of the shortest and the longest

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All that in the next 45 minutes of end-to-end political action

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to whet your appetite for the tennis.

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And with me to discuss all of it is the anti-poverty

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campaigner, crossbench peer and Big Issue founder John Bird.

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First today, Donald Trump could be coming to Britain next year,

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The US president accepted the Queen's invitation for him

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to come on a state visit when Theresa May visited

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Washington in January, but there's since been little public

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discussion about the trip, leading to speculation it

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The two met at the G20 gathering of world leaders

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Mr Trump said he and the Prime Minister had developed a "very

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special relationship", and he expected a post-Brexit trade

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deal to happen between the two countries very quickly.

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Mrs May said that dates for his visit were still being looked at.

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So, we now expect it to be sometime next year,

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and it will be a huge event when it happens.

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Let's talk now to the BBC's deputy political editor, John Pienaar.

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Have you got a date in your diary for 2018? I have got 2018 in the

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diary, but even that is in pencil! You never quite know. Normally you

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would know about a big state visit like this well in a dance, but you

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do not often see the words Donald Trump and normal in the same

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sentence. Indeed you don't. It was going to be this autumn, and now it

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has been pushed back to next year - will it happen at all? We know that

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there probably would be major protests, something he did not want,

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and also, 2 million people signing a petition calling for his invites to

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be rescinded. I think the protests would be an absolute certainty. The

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visit you could scarcely imagine would be put off indefinitely.

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Although the Prime Minister first announced to visit back in January,

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and she was very keen to keep on the right side of Donald Trump, and that

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remains the case. Lots of reasons for that. Major partner in a

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post-Brexit world, in particular a trade deal, is a very high priority.

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She wants to stay on the right side of Donald Trump. And this is part of

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that. But there are those complications. And what about things

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like policing you were at the G20, what was the reaction there? Well,

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the reaction was, as you saw on the news, and heard on the radio,

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running skirmishes between police and demonstrators through the entire

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G20. You would hope that Donald Trump, when he comes, will not be

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accompanied by precisely that kind of scene, but it will be enormously

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controversial, and clearly you could imagine a reticence on his part to

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face all of that, although the White House denies that that is the reason

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for the postponement. He has been invited, he should come? This is

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diplomatic, it is nothing to do with politics, it is nothing to do with

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anything, other than the fact that Theresa May wants to make the most

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of her premiership. And she needs the old Alliance, the people who

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saved us in the Second World War, and we shouldn't forget that, even

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though this man is from ugly the most peculiar person who has ever

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held that office. They have had some pretty strange and some horrible

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presidents, you know, Kings in fact, because they're monarchs. People

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like Andrew Jackson was an absolute scumbag. You look at all of the kind

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of things, Ronald Reagan wasn't exactly playing the full hand. This

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guy almost seems to be all the worst things that you could put into one

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hand. But they have a special relationship, according to the White

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House and probably according to No 10? When the UK lost America, we had

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a king who was losing the plot, and in many senses, the war still went

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on, the separation still went on. Things happen in politics sometimes

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with the most god-awful people, and this man is probably one of them.

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You mentioned the trade deal between the two of them, that is going to be

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crucial, this is going to happen after we have left the EU, but that

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will be part of cementing that special relationship? Enormous

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priority. Andrew Jackson, by the way, was a general who confronted

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the British, and he was given to pointing his pistol at people. We

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haven't had that from Donald Trump so far! Donald Trump has said there

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will be a trade deal very, very quickly, which was exactly what

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Theresa May was hoping to hear. Just how quickly that actually means, we

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don't know. These trade deals, on the best day, can take years to

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conclude. This will be bilateral... Hamsik he is in favour of bilateral

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deals? Of course, America first is the motto of Donald Trump, so you

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would not think it would be easy for Britain. Will you be welcoming him?

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I would like to get him, and grab him and take him someplace real,

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rather than a golf course. I do think that we seem to have more and

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more people who are just so, so outside of reality, and this man

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takes a lot of beating. Time now for our daily quiz, and it

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might cheer up the Prime Minister. She's reached something

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of a milestone today, equalling the term in office of one

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of her predecessors. Is it a) Gordon Brown,

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b) William Pitt the Younger, c) Alec Douglas-Home,

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or d) fictional prime Later on in the show,

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John will hopefully give us John Birt, that is, not John

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Pienaar. Although he may know it, too.

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Last October the Prime Minister commissioned the former Labour

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adviser Matthew Taylor to report on modern working practices -

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specifically, how to ensure a rapidly changing economy doesn't

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disadvantage certain kinds of workers.

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Well, this morning, Theresa May has joined Matthew Taylor

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He says the UK has a "great record on creating jobs" but hasn't paid

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enough attention to the "quality" of those jobs.

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Mr Taylor says it's time for an end to the "cash in hand" economy,

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which is worth up to ?6 billion a year - much of it untaxed.

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He says payment for traditional cash jobs like window cleaning should now

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be made digitally. He's also recommending that people

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who work in the gig economy - that's certain kinds of freelance

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or short-term contract work - be classed as workers

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and not self-employed. That change in classification

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for more than one million people would mean some firms could have

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to pay millions of pounds in national insurance

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contributions every year. However, he doesn't call -

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as some unions wanted - for the banning of zero-hours

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contracts. Nor does he argue fees that workers

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pay to take employers The Government, of course,

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does not have to accept all of the recommendations

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in the review, but Theresa May says reforming work practices involves

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finding "the right balance Meanwhile, the Government has

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reached a settlement on teachers' pay in England and Wales,

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which will mean a real-terms cut for most teachers as they're limited

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to a 1% pay rise over the next year, although those at the bottom

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of the scale can receive a 2% rise. by Labour's Chi Onwurah -

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she's the Shadow Minister For Industrial Strategy -

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and by the Conservative What can you confidently expect to

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change in your working conditions? I think you can expect the Government

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to look carefully at this report. We commissioned it because we recognise

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that people working in the so-called gig economy do not have the rights

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that other people do. The flexible book economy is a good thing because

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it creates jobs but we need to make sure people are looked after. Things

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like having them paid national insurance but also get benefits like

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sick pay and holiday pay I think is a really interesting idea. He also

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says that people working for, say, Uber, are definitely getting the

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minimum wage. The minimum wager has gone up by 26% under the

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Conservatives. I am proud of that but I am keen to make sure that

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everybody, including people in the gig economy, benefit from that

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enormous increase in the minimum wage. But they will not necessarily

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accept all of these recommendations, the Government? That's right. We are

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hoping, by the way, that there will be constructive engagement from the

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Labour side as well. And I hope many of these ideas will get taken

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forward. But you have got to be very careful to make sure the balance is

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struck between giving extra rights to low paid workers but not

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destroying jobs at the same time. Over the summer, I think the

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Government will be making sure that it strikes the right balance. Most

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workers in the gig economy, as independent contractors, have no

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protection against unfair dismissal, no right to redundancy payments, no

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right to receive the minimum wage, you used the example of Uber, no

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right to paid holiday and no bite to sickness pay. If their status is

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reclassified, as Matthew Taylor suggests, will they get all those

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things? That is what the Government is going to look at. What do you

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think? If somebody is in paid employment with one employer who

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directs their activity, to all intents and purposes, they are that

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person's boss, then in my view, yes, they should get those rights. We

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have to draw the line be somebody who is essentially an employee

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versus someone who is a genuine freelance tractor working for lots

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of different people. We have got to draw the line in exactly the right

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place. Which part of the report, Chi Onwurah, would a Labour government

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implement? The fundamental principle is that everyone is entitled to a

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fair and decent, who is that they should be treated as human beings

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and not as cogs in a machine. That is the fundamentals. The problem is

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that, regardless of what Chris has been saying, for the last seven

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years, we have not seen that, we have seen the greatest undermining

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of working rights for decades. Which rights have been undermined? For

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example, no access to tribunal fees, meaning that so many people can't

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establish what their rights are, they can't get access to justice, if

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you like. That was really a very underhand move by the Government in

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order to prevent workers from establishing their rights. So,

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that's one right which Matthew Taylor has recommended should be

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reinstated. In terms of jobs that you mentioned, do you accept that

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there has been a massive move in job creation over the last seven years,

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it's not the Government, it is business, but you could say

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government created the conditions, that is a good thing? It's good to

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have jobs, but jobs should be a route out of poverty. What this

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government has done is changing that, so it is no longer at route

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out of poverty, because there are so many low-paid jobs. We see people,

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nurses who are working but who are having to use food banks. I have

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constituents having to have two low-paid jobs to make ends meet and

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at the same time, not having the protection that you spoke about. I

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have got to put the facts on record. We have created 2 million new jobs,

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unemployment is at a 40-year low... People are poor. The minimum wage

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has gone up by a staggering 26% under the Conservatives. And the

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poorest paid 6 million have been lifted out of income tax entirely.

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Basic rate taxpayers, including nurses and teachers and fireman, are

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all paying ?1000 a year less in tax. You have got to put all of that

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together. Given the mess we inherited, and given what is

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happening in the rest of Europe, that is a fantastic achievement on

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jobs, in very difficult circumstances. People are on average

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?2600 a year poorer because of what you have done, tax increases, VAT,

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you increased that, and also the absence of any wage rises amongst

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both the public and the private sector. We have said that we will

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put in place a ?10 minimum wage, you can't match that because you're

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actually not even going to meet the promises that you have made. So,

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people need to share this prosperity that you're talking about - and they

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don't. Let's talk about another aspect of

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protections and rights. There has been a lot of debate between the two

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main parties about zero-hours contracts. Do you think there are a

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good thing and should stay? 75% of the new jobs are full-time job. Only

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3% are zero-hours contracts. There was a survey recently amongst

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McDonald's employees, who are many of them on these flexible contract,

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an 80% found it suited their lifestyle. What was wrong was when

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their work so-called exclusive contracts where someone was tied to

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a job, couldn't get employment elsewhere despite being guaranteed

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no work, and we legislated to ban those, and it was the right thing to

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do. Do you accept that many workers want that flexibility? Very strong

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position it will evidence that says that with the right protections

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people like that. -- strong statistical evidence. We want to

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retain flexibility. Can't zero-hours contracts work if you have the right

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protection? Zero-hours contracts give the flexibility and the control

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of that flexibility to the employer. We look at the New Zealand model

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that allows for flexibility and gives money hours. Is possible. --

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minimum hours. Jobs are the best way of lifting people out of poverty but

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only have the right protections? Jobs can take you places and leave

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you there, and that is why at The Big Issue, we are always trying to

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move people on. You really have to see jobs as a stage up. Where I'd

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agree with most of the ugly, left and right, is if someone said to me,

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I want a job, and I'm waiting around, can you give me a job? And

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applied for the job. I would probably put them with the rest of

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the pile, but if they said to me, I'm working in Poundland, I don't

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like the hours or what I'm doing, but I'm doing it because I have got

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to do something to keep myself hail and hearty. I would pick that person

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because that is someone who is going to make the most of it. Most of the

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Poundland jobs are for people who are stuck, and we have to do

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something about that. The people who are stuck, and for people who want

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to grow and progress, is it right that gig economy companies are the

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ones that should be paying National Insurance contributions, and will

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the Government make that change? If someone is an employee, and people

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who work for Uber more than 20 or 30 hours a week are, we need to look at

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that. We need to make sure that national insurance is paid. We have

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a massive deficit we need to close, and it is only fair that those

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workers get the kinds of rights you mentioned, such as sick pay and

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holiday pay. We need to make sure the workers have those protections.

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We're here, and I hope Labour are as well, to stand up for those people

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and make sure they are protected. If we push too far, the jobs miracle

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may be put at risk. Mathieu Taylor also said we should end the cash in

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hand economy. A lot of people do that - do you think it should stop?

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The cash economy has been much exaggerated. I think people will

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continue to use cash. The issue is when taxes and pensions

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contributions are paid. Some of the points that Mathieu Taylor is making

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around using technology to empower workers so that when you pay people,

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there is a pension contribution. Technology has been about taking

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power away from working people, but Labour will make sure that

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technology works to empower people. Some of this is based on the working

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practices of companies such as Uber. One of your colleagues today said

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that it wasn't morally acceptable - do you agree? She says their working

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practices are not morally acceptable. It is really important

:20:02.:20:10.

to look at what the companies are doing and how they are treating

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their working people. I say that Uber and other companies deliver

:20:18.:20:20.

real benefits, and particularly if you're a woman on her own... Summit

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is not morally unacceptable? You want the services, but you want to

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make sure that their working practices are the right ones. You

:20:29.:20:38.

need to talk to the drivers. If you do, probably 50% think it is good.

:20:39.:20:44.

We have got to lift the Uber economy up. That is a fair point, John, and

:20:45.:20:50.

that is hopefully what this will do. 100% of Uber drivers have chosen to

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do that. We could do the whole programme on this, and we will at

:20:58.:20:59.

some point! But with MPs now regularly reporting

:21:00.:21:00.

cases of serious abuse, has the normal rough and tumble

:21:01.:21:03.

of political life turned Well, that's the subject

:21:04.:21:06.

of a debate to be held in the Commons later this week,

:21:07.:21:10.

but here's the Conservative MP Sheryl Murray asking about it

:21:11.:21:12.

at Prime Minister's Questions last Over the past months, I've had

:21:13.:21:15.

swastikas carved into posters, social media posts like "burn

:21:16.:21:18.

the witch" and "stab the C", people putting Labour Party posters

:21:19.:21:21.

on my home, photographing them and pushing them

:21:22.:21:25.

through my letterbox, and someone even urinated

:21:26.:21:29.

on my office door - Can my right honourable friend

:21:30.:21:31.

suggest what can be done to stop these things, which,

:21:32.:21:41.

Mr Speaker, may well be putting off good people

:21:42.:21:43.

from And at the weekend, the Labour MP

:21:44.:21:45.

Yvette Cooper gave a speech about the "vitriolic abuse"

:21:46.:21:53.

being dished out to many We're joined now by the MP who's

:21:54.:21:55.

called this week's debate - he's Simon Hart -

:21:56.:22:01.

and by Tulip Siddiq, who has said female MPs need

:22:02.:22:03.

training to deal with what are known We've heard a lot about this over

:22:04.:22:17.

the last few years. Simon, you have this abuse on Wednesday about abuse

:22:18.:22:22.

faced by candidates in elections - how is this different from previous

:22:23.:22:28.

campaigns? Between 2015 and 2017, 2015 was a civilised election. You

:22:29.:22:34.

had a passionate debate, shook hands and went to the pub. It has become

:22:35.:22:38.

more personal. The purpose of this is not to provide an MP and

:22:39.:22:44.

opportunity to whinge... It might be genuine. Possibly, but it is members

:22:45.:22:53.

of the public - people who want to put a poster up or make a donation -

:22:54.:22:58.

they are being abused, getting broken windows and they are being

:22:59.:23:02.

driven away from politics at a time when we need them. Who is doing it?

:23:03.:23:07.

You say it was civilised in 2015, so what changed in two years? There is

:23:08.:23:20.

a partisan element. There is quite a lot of anti-Semitism, homophobia,

:23:21.:23:23.

sexism. It is not just left versus right. In my experience, it has been

:23:24.:23:31.

typified by people feeling they have been given permission by the silence

:23:32.:23:37.

from political leaders to engage in this without repercussions. Is there

:23:38.:23:44.

a sense that Momentum, this grassroots organisation backed by

:23:45.:23:47.

Jeremy Corbyn, feels it has a licence to be abusive to people who

:23:48.:23:52.

don't agree with their view? I think that is absolutely ridiculous, and I

:23:53.:23:55.

think it's an easy way to cover up the fact that things are getting

:23:56.:24:00.

worse. I have been abused since 2010 online, long before most people knew

:24:01.:24:04.

who Jeremy Corbyn was, and it was directed at me, mostly because I was

:24:05.:24:09.

a female politician. In the last two years, it has gotten worse, but it

:24:10.:24:14.

tends to get worse around major events. Around Brexit, it got worse,

:24:15.:24:19.

around Donald Trump's election, and during the general election. There

:24:20.:24:25.

are people who are tweeting saying things like, you can't be a mother

:24:26.:24:29.

and an MP, and then a string of swear words. Sorry, don't blame that

:24:30.:24:35.

on Momentum. There was our online internet trolls. Yvette

:24:36.:24:46.

Cooper had someone tweet about her about being in a first-class

:24:47.:24:53.

carriage on a train. Who is that, in your mind, and what are they trying

:24:54.:24:57.

to say? I don't know. I could give you an example of someone who

:24:58.:25:06.

tweeted me yesterday, saying, go back to where you belong, Bongo-

:25:07.:25:14.

Bongo - land. I don't blame Theresa May for one tweet sent by someone

:25:15.:25:18.

who vote Conservative. It is easy to blame leaders for what people are

:25:19.:25:26.

doing in their name. Are left-wingers getting it from the

:25:27.:25:33.

right as much as the converse? I think it has played a significant

:25:34.:25:40.

part, but it is not exclusive. Political leaders have a unique

:25:41.:25:44.

platform to stand up and say, not in my name, not in my party's name.

:25:45.:25:48.

Anyone who does this in the name of me and my party has no place on the

:25:49.:25:53.

political stage. At the moment, there has been silence on this

:25:54.:25:56.

topic. Tomorrow and the debate this week is about rectifying that and

:25:57.:26:03.

forcing leaders to say, this will not be accepted. Jeremy Corbyn

:26:04.:26:06.

tweeted in 2016, I completely condemn abuse of MPs of any kind. He

:26:07.:26:13.

said on Question Time, there should be no online abuse, no abuse in

:26:14.:26:19.

political debate. I don't make personal attacks on anyone. Yvette

:26:20.:26:30.

Cooper has stipulated the left versus Right campaign, and how

:26:31.:26:35.

Labour if it wanted to be credible needed to address this. What is

:26:36.:26:39.

Jeremy Corbyn doing about it? What is he doing about it? He spoke up

:26:40.:26:45.

during the election very strongly. He personally tweeted when I was

:26:46.:26:48.

getting abuse saying it was unacceptable and that we should be

:26:49.:26:54.

forcing women are flying, and he stood in solidarity. I think a

:26:55.:26:57.

deafening silence is absolutely the wrong phrase to use. Is he giving

:26:58.:27:03.

enough? Theresa May said yesterday that she was surprised by Jeremy

:27:04.:27:10.

Corbyn's fell year to condemn vandalism. There are examples of

:27:11.:27:15.

swastikas being drawn on Conservative posters. Should he do

:27:16.:27:21.

more? I think he has done plenty. He rang me personally after the abuse.

:27:22.:27:27.

I sort of feel we are missing the point by blaming leaders of

:27:28.:27:31.

political parties. The fact is, Twitter and Facebook have to take

:27:32.:27:37.

responsibility. If they want us to use their networks, they should take

:27:38.:27:41.

responsibility. Facebook was very quick to get rid of a picture of a

:27:42.:27:46.

woman breast-feeding, but when I reported a fake account set up in my

:27:47.:27:49.

name, two weeks later I got a response. They should be acting

:27:50.:27:53.

faster. Therefore, and we have had a lot of female MPs who have long had

:27:54.:27:57.

vitriolic abuse against them, so a missed origin this -- a misogynist

:27:58.:28:06.

strain. You can't change a culture that has happened for years. Is

:28:07.:28:17.

absolutely not. We need to measure the extent of this and the impact it

:28:18.:28:21.

is having. Rain-mac isn't it to do with the fact that ten years ago you

:28:22.:28:27.

didn't have these means where every little person in every little

:28:28.:28:32.

corner, every little freak and weirdo, as well as the general

:28:33.:28:36.

public, having the chance to actually grabbed the debate and to

:28:37.:28:43.

do things against people like yourself? And we really need to be

:28:44.:28:48.

thinking about this kind of freedom - is it a freedom to be used

:28:49.:28:55.

properly or improperly? There is existing legislation. If you want to

:28:56.:28:59.

take someone to task, it is expensive and risky, so people are

:29:00.:29:03.

disinclined to do it. I agree about social media, because this extends

:29:04.:29:08.

beyond the bullying of MPs. It is about online bullying in general.

:29:09.:29:12.

There will come a time when we will look back at this because we will

:29:13.:29:14.

have invented the means of controlling this horrible, horrible

:29:15.:29:21.

manifestation of ugliness. The laws exist, they have just not been

:29:22.:29:25.

implemented as much. And you are calling for training? Training, but

:29:26.:29:30.

also Twitter and Facebook need to take responsibility. If there is a

:29:31.:29:36.

need for a change in legislation, perhaps this is one point on which

:29:37.:29:42.

Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn can be in the same voting lobby.

:29:43.:29:44.

Cross-party consensus after all! Now, over the last 50 years,

:29:45.:29:48.

Britain has become a richer place. But even in one of the wealthiest

:29:49.:29:51.

countries in the world, one in five of us is classed

:29:52.:29:54.

as living in poverty. It's the sort of thing you might

:29:55.:30:14.

expect from the Victorians, a map of London, colour-coded by area

:30:15.:30:19.

according to wealth or poverty. The black colour was what would you

:30:20.:30:23.

define as the worst colour back then, and that was describe as

:30:24.:30:28.

vicious. Although apparently, vicious did not mean that they would

:30:29.:30:35.

attack you, it just meant they were prone to vice, drinking, gambling,

:30:36.:30:42.

that kind of stuff. Lunesdale the wealthy shipping magnate Charles

:30:43.:30:47.

Booz commissioned the maps in the 1880s, updating them ten years

:30:48.:30:51.

later. They revised them by accompanying bobbies on the beat,

:30:52.:30:57.

walking the area, so again, more experts. People who would walk

:30:58.:31:01.

around the area on a regular basis and they knew what a street was

:31:02.:31:05.

like, if it had woken windows, if the children had mud on their faces.

:31:06.:31:10.

They knew it would not necessarily be that salubrious place. Booth

:31:11.:31:15.

found more than 30% of Londoners were living in poverty at the end of

:31:16.:31:19.

the 19th-century. The stats have changed since then, but so is the

:31:20.:31:23.

way poverty is measured. Absolute poverty is the fraction of people

:31:24.:31:26.

who have an income below a given line. A couple of hundred pounds a

:31:27.:31:34.

week, for example. And that line goes up with inflation but doesn't

:31:35.:31:39.

change other than that. A relative poverty line is a line which changes

:31:40.:31:45.

depending on how rich the whole country is. So, it's 60% of the

:31:46.:31:51.

middle income. As the country gets richer, the poverty line goes up,

:31:52.:31:57.

and therefore, it is a measure of inequality between middle income and

:31:58.:32:01.

low income people. Latest official figures suggest that after housing

:32:02.:32:07.

costs, 20% of people in the UK live in absolute poverty, while 22% of

:32:08.:32:11.

people live in relative poverty. Over the next few years, projections

:32:12.:32:18.

show some increases in poverty. That's partly because employment

:32:19.:32:24.

gains which have happened over the last few years are expected to peter

:32:25.:32:32.

out. And cuts to working age benefits are really falling upon low

:32:33.:32:37.

income families with children, and that suppresses their incomes as

:32:38.:32:40.

well as. It was cuts to some benefits that led Iain Duncan Smith

:32:41.:32:44.

to resign as Work and Pensions Secretary last year. But before

:32:45.:32:47.

that, he changed the way child poverty was measured. The previous

:32:48.:32:52.

Vale government having defined a child is being poor when it lives in

:32:53.:32:55.

a household with an income below 60% of the UK average. My problem with

:32:56.:33:02.

the 60% line was, it the only told me one thing, which is, you are

:33:03.:33:06.

below it all you are above it. What I was trying to do was to say, look,

:33:07.:33:11.

this is something where we need to say, what is the measure going to

:33:12.:33:13.

be? Educational failure, dysfunctional family background,

:33:14.:33:19.

family break down, find really good measurements, and then we can begin

:33:20.:33:23.

to have a framework to say, now we know what we have to do, to get that

:33:24.:33:29.

family, sort it, and moving out - that's the key, moving out. Dealing

:33:30.:33:32.

with the causes of poverty might be more complicated than measuring it.

:33:33.:33:37.

Even the Victorians realised there is more to it than just income. John

:33:38.:33:42.

Bird, what does living in poverty in Britain in 2017 look like to you? To

:33:43.:33:50.

me, it looks like people who are stuck on a very, very small amount

:33:51.:33:58.

of money, who are not able to take advantage of some of the things,

:33:59.:34:02.

like democracy. Poverty, if you're in poverty, you are not in

:34:03.:34:05.

democracy, because democracy doesn't cover poverty. You are marginalised

:34:06.:34:11.

in every way? Yeah, you're not involved in the debate, largely

:34:12.:34:15.

because you are in some senses worn down, eroded, by what is happening

:34:16.:34:20.

in life. You are living a stopgap life, you're living a life where

:34:21.:34:24.

there is very little future and there's very little opportunity.

:34:25.:34:29.

Your children are not preparing for higher education or further

:34:30.:34:33.

education, so what happens is that you are stuck, and it seems that all

:34:34.:34:40.

the cards are stacked against you. And is the way out of that trap, as

:34:41.:34:46.

it seems, the way you have describe it, is money the answer? Money is

:34:47.:34:51.

the answer, but it's not necessarily just to dump a couple of thousands

:34:52.:34:58.

pounds a week on people. We have got to go back. What we have got is, we

:34:59.:35:02.

have got a failing system of government which is largely

:35:03.:35:04.

responsible for this almost institutional poverty. If you look

:35:05.:35:10.

at the way that we respond to children and families in need and

:35:11.:35:13.

children who were in abuse, we take them out, we put them into care, we

:35:14.:35:18.

spend thousands of pounds, maybe ?3000 a week on them, we spend ?1

:35:19.:35:23.

million on them... And stick and you put them back in that failing home?

:35:24.:35:28.

At the age of 16, they come out with the reading age of 12-year-old. You

:35:29.:35:32.

have schools system which fails 37% of the children... Even though there

:35:33.:35:38.

have been improvements and there are more children in our schools? Yes,

:35:39.:35:44.

these are Justine Greening scenes figures, I thought it was 30, she

:35:45.:35:49.

says it is 37. But the point is, if you have a mechanism, a government

:35:50.:35:53.

that cannot respond to that, that uses social security not as social

:35:54.:35:59.

opportunity... Tax credits, for instance, were you a fan of those,

:36:00.:36:03.

which Gordon Brown believed would help families who were just about

:36:04.:36:11.

managing? I am a great believer in using social security for social

:36:12.:36:15.

opportunity. I don't think there is enough given to get people out of

:36:16.:36:21.

the quagmire of poverty, lack of education, lack of... If you go back

:36:22.:36:26.

to the school, the failing 37%, they're the people who fill up our

:36:27.:36:30.

prisons and our long-term unemployed, the people who fill up

:36:31.:36:34.

the A department, who use it as a drop-in. How helpful are these

:36:35.:36:39.

measures of poverty, absolute and relative poverty? The figures are

:36:40.:36:44.

quite stark, 22% living in relative poverty. But is it, as the

:36:45.:36:47.

contributor said in the film, more about inequality, as parts of the

:36:48.:36:52.

population get richer, begging those at the bottom look even poorer, is

:36:53.:36:58.

it a helpful measure? I'm not too happy on the way people measure

:36:59.:37:03.

poverty. I think the way you measure poverty is, you measure it on the

:37:04.:37:07.

basis of the individual, what can the individual do in their lives to

:37:08.:37:11.

change their lives, to feed their children, to improve their children?

:37:12.:37:14.

I don't think any of the devices that have been used, even those

:37:15.:37:21.

which were mentioned, they were very broad brush. We tend to reduce

:37:22.:37:26.

people to statistics. What we should be doing is, not creating all of

:37:27.:37:29.

these ghettos, like we did at Grenfell Tower, pushing people into

:37:30.:37:33.

social security, rather than using it as an opportunity, a way of

:37:34.:37:39.

getting out of poverty. It was invented for that purpose. So, we

:37:40.:37:44.

get this really, really weird world, a lot of the poverty could be

:37:45.:37:47.

changed if the Government changed the way in which it dealt with

:37:48.:37:52.

people in need and Hilton them so that they can get out of need and

:37:53.:37:56.

instead of being rescued, they could themselves become rescuers. While we

:37:57.:38:02.

have been on air, the Prime Minister has been speaking, as we said

:38:03.:38:06.

earlier, at the launch of the review into working practices. Let's take a

:38:07.:38:10.

look between the nature of employment is central both to our

:38:11.:38:13.

national economic success, but also also to the lives we all lead. From

:38:14.:38:18.

the end of our childhood, until the years of retirement, if we don't win

:38:19.:38:22.

the National Lottery jackpot, the vast majority of us will expect to

:38:23.:38:27.

devote at least half of our waking hours on most days of the week to

:38:28.:38:34.

work. A good job can be a genuine vocation, providing intellectual and

:38:35.:38:36.

personal fulfilment as well as economic security. With good work

:38:37.:38:42.

can come dignity and a sense of self-worth. It can promote good

:38:43.:38:45.

mental and physical health and emotional well-being. Theresa May,

:38:46.:38:50.

responding to the report she commissioned into working practices.

:38:51.:38:56.

Now, it's time to find out the answer to our quiz.

:38:57.:38:59.

And today the Prime Minister has reached something of a milestone,

:39:00.:39:02.

equalling the term in office of one of her predecessors.

:39:03.:39:04.

A) Gordon Brown, b) William Pitt the Younger c) Alec Douglas-Home,

:39:05.:39:09.

or d) fictional prime minister Jim Hacker?

:39:10.:39:10.

But unlike Theresa May, he never won an election. Well, it is right to!

:39:11.:39:28.

Yes, Theresa May has today clocked up 363 days in office,

:39:29.:39:31.

meaning she draws level with Alec Douglas-Home.

:39:32.:39:33.

I wonder if they've had a whip-round and got her a cake.

:39:34.:39:36.

Let's have a look at some of the shortest and longest

:39:37.:39:39.

The shortest serving Prime Minister ever was George Canning,

:39:40.:39:42.

who lasted a total of 119 day before his death in August 1827,

:39:43.:39:45.

although his successor, the Viscount Goderich,

:39:46.:39:47.

Unable to hold Canning's coalition of Tories and Whigs together,

:39:48.:39:53.

In the 20th century, while Sir Alec Douglas-Home lasted

:39:54.:40:02.

just 363 days in Downing Street before losing the 1964

:40:03.:40:05.

In fact, there was a shorter residency of No 10.

:40:06.:40:09.

Bonar Law managed only 211 days in office because of ill health,

:40:10.:40:12.

despite winning a clear majority in the 1922 election.

:40:13.:40:14.

Winston Churchill was resident in Downing Street for eight

:40:15.:40:16.

years and 239 days, although that was split

:40:17.:40:18.

He was surpassed by Tony Blair, who lasted for a grand total of 10

:40:19.:40:30.

years and 56 days before he decided to hand over to Gordon Brown.

:40:31.:40:33.

Yet even he did not manage to overtake Margaret Thatcher's term

:40:34.:40:36.

She is still only the seventh longest-serving Prime Minister,

:40:37.:40:40.

as the record is still held by the first official resident

:40:41.:40:44.

of No 10 Downing Street, Robert Walpole.

:40:45.:40:49.

He served for a total of 20 years and 314 days until -

:40:50.:40:52.

at the great age of 65 - he was considered too

:40:53.:40:55.

old by his opponents to carry on in office.

:40:56.:40:59.

Well, we're joined now by Catherine Haddon,

:41:00.:41:03.

who is the resident historian at the Institute for Government.

:41:04.:41:08.

Is longevity a sign of success for a Prime Minister? Not necessarily. I

:41:09.:41:14.

think there are several ways of characterising success. It is really

:41:15.:41:17.

the modern premierships, it is things like party management, public

:41:18.:41:23.

persona, the policies which are well remembered, and then finally,

:41:24.:41:29.

intellectual matters. So, you would automatically think, they must have

:41:30.:41:33.

been successful if they keep winning elections? Absolutely, and for that

:41:34.:41:37.

reason, staying in office for a long period of time, but there's many

:41:38.:41:42.

factors coming into that. Some very well remembered Prime ministers who

:41:43.:41:45.

lasted only a short period, they might be well remembered for

:41:46.:41:52.

failings. With talking almost a year of Theresa May's premiership. And a

:41:53.:41:59.

lot has happened! It has. But you look back two years, and we had

:42:00.:42:04.

David Cameron on the first Conservative majority since John

:42:05.:42:07.

Major. He looked in a very commanding position, he had a strong

:42:08.:42:10.

Chancellor. The Conservative Party were very grateful for the wind that

:42:11.:42:14.

they had. He had managed to coalition government, and he seemed

:42:15.:42:17.

to be developing his own arsenal premiership. And then... It was all

:42:18.:42:24.

over, after the referendum! The idea of having a Prime Minister for 20

:42:25.:42:28.

years seems alien to us, do you think that could happen again? I

:42:29.:42:33.

would never rule anything out. As your graphic showed, if you look

:42:34.:42:38.

back to the 19th century, the 18th-century, we had a lot of

:42:39.:42:41.

premierships could last a year, maybe a bit longer and a lot of

:42:42.:42:45.

turnover. Then you have periods where you do have one which lasts

:42:46.:42:49.

for a period of time, perhaps because there is something which is

:42:50.:42:54.

going on, a war or some big policy area, or a lack of contenders. That

:42:55.:42:57.

is the other thing, the other contenders. Do you think longevity

:42:58.:43:02.

is a good thing? If you are in for a long time, you can affect real

:43:03.:43:07.

change? My problem is this, as we witnessed earlier over the Taylor

:43:08.:43:13.

report, that there are these entrenched as Asians, and often, the

:43:14.:43:19.

truth is in the middle. So I'm much more interested in looking at

:43:20.:43:25.

coalitions. I think we need a coalition now, I think we need a

:43:26.:43:28.

cabinet of talents, because I think we are in the greatest place oddly

:43:29.:43:32.

we have been in since the Second World War. And you would like to see

:43:33.:43:37.

a grand coalition? I would like to see a grand coalition. A grand

:43:38.:43:40.

coalition we three are! Thank you very much for coming in today.

:43:41.:43:43.

Thanks to all our guests, especially John Bird.

:43:44.:43:48.

I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage

:43:49.:43:51.

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