Browse content similar to 11/07/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Good morning, and welcome to The Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:44. | |
Theresa May visited Donald Trump back in January, and invited him | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
for a state visit to Britain - today, we understand it will go | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
The Prime Minister has been launching a government review | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
into working practices - so, what will it mean for those | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
at the bottom end of the labour market, and does it go far enough? | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
MPs say they're facing increasing levels of abuse and intimidation - | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
some say they're now living in "genuine fear". | :01:04. | :01:10. | |
And how long do most prime ministers stay behind that famous black door? | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
We'll be taking a look at some of the shortest and the longest | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
All that in the next 45 minutes of end-to-end political action | :01:18. | :01:29. | |
to whet your appetite for the tennis. | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
And with me to discuss all of it is the anti-poverty | :01:36. | :01:37. | |
campaigner, crossbench peer and Big Issue founder John Bird. | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
First today, Donald Trump could be coming to Britain next year, | :01:40. | :01:51. | |
The US president accepted the Queen's invitation for him | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
to come on a state visit when Theresa May visited | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
Washington in January, but there's since been little public | :01:57. | :01:58. | |
discussion about the trip, leading to speculation it | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
The two met at the G20 gathering of world leaders | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
Mr Trump said he and the Prime Minister had developed a "very | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
special relationship", and he expected a post-Brexit trade | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
deal to happen between the two countries very quickly. | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
Mrs May said that dates for his visit were still being looked at. | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
So, we now expect it to be sometime next year, | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
and it will be a huge event when it happens. | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
Let's talk now to the BBC's deputy political editor, John Pienaar. | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
Have you got a date in your diary for 2018? I have got 2018 in the | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
diary, but even that is in pencil! You never quite know. Normally you | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
would know about a big state visit like this well in a dance, but you | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
do not often see the words Donald Trump and normal in the same | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
sentence. Indeed you don't. It was going to be this autumn, and now it | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
has been pushed back to next year - will it happen at all? We know that | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
there probably would be major protests, something he did not want, | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
and also, 2 million people signing a petition calling for his invites to | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
be rescinded. I think the protests would be an absolute certainty. The | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
visit you could scarcely imagine would be put off indefinitely. | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
Although the Prime Minister first announced to visit back in January, | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
and she was very keen to keep on the right side of Donald Trump, and that | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
remains the case. Lots of reasons for that. Major partner in a | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
post-Brexit world, in particular a trade deal, is a very high priority. | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
She wants to stay on the right side of Donald Trump. And this is part of | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
that. But there are those complications. And what about things | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
like policing you were at the G20, what was the reaction there? Well, | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
the reaction was, as you saw on the news, and heard on the radio, | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
running skirmishes between police and demonstrators through the entire | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
G20. You would hope that Donald Trump, when he comes, will not be | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
accompanied by precisely that kind of scene, but it will be enormously | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
controversial, and clearly you could imagine a reticence on his part to | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
face all of that, although the White House denies that that is the reason | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
for the postponement. He has been invited, he should come? This is | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
diplomatic, it is nothing to do with politics, it is nothing to do with | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
anything, other than the fact that Theresa May wants to make the most | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
of her premiership. And she needs the old Alliance, the people who | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
saved us in the Second World War, and we shouldn't forget that, even | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
though this man is from ugly the most peculiar person who has ever | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
held that office. They have had some pretty strange and some horrible | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
presidents, you know, Kings in fact, because they're monarchs. People | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
like Andrew Jackson was an absolute scumbag. You look at all of the kind | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
of things, Ronald Reagan wasn't exactly playing the full hand. This | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
guy almost seems to be all the worst things that you could put into one | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
hand. But they have a special relationship, according to the White | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
House and probably according to No 10? When the UK lost America, we had | :05:21. | :05:29. | |
a king who was losing the plot, and in many senses, the war still went | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
on, the separation still went on. Things happen in politics sometimes | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
with the most god-awful people, and this man is probably one of them. | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
You mentioned the trade deal between the two of them, that is going to be | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
crucial, this is going to happen after we have left the EU, but that | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
will be part of cementing that special relationship? Enormous | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
priority. Andrew Jackson, by the way, was a general who confronted | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
the British, and he was given to pointing his pistol at people. We | :06:04. | :06:05. | |
haven't had that from Donald Trump so far! Donald Trump has said there | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
will be a trade deal very, very quickly, which was exactly what | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
Theresa May was hoping to hear. Just how quickly that actually means, we | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
don't know. These trade deals, on the best day, can take years to | :06:20. | :06:27. | |
conclude. This will be bilateral... Hamsik he is in favour of bilateral | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
deals? Of course, America first is the motto of Donald Trump, so you | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
would not think it would be easy for Britain. Will you be welcoming him? | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
I would like to get him, and grab him and take him someplace real, | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
rather than a golf course. I do think that we seem to have more and | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
more people who are just so, so outside of reality, and this man | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
takes a lot of beating. Time now for our daily quiz, and it | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
might cheer up the Prime Minister. She's reached something | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
of a milestone today, equalling the term in office of one | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
of her predecessors. Is it a) Gordon Brown, | :07:09. | :07:10. | |
b) William Pitt the Younger, c) Alec Douglas-Home, | :07:11. | :07:18. | |
or d) fictional prime Later on in the show, | :07:19. | :07:19. | |
John will hopefully give us John Birt, that is, not John | :07:20. | :07:31. | |
Pienaar. Although he may know it, too. | :07:32. | :07:32. | |
Last October the Prime Minister commissioned the former Labour | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
adviser Matthew Taylor to report on modern working practices - | :07:37. | :07:38. | |
specifically, how to ensure a rapidly changing economy doesn't | :07:39. | :07:40. | |
disadvantage certain kinds of workers. | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
Well, this morning, Theresa May has joined Matthew Taylor | :07:44. | :07:45. | |
He says the UK has a "great record on creating jobs" but hasn't paid | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
enough attention to the "quality" of those jobs. | :07:52. | :07:53. | |
Mr Taylor says it's time for an end to the "cash in hand" economy, | :07:54. | :08:09. | |
which is worth up to ?6 billion a year - much of it untaxed. | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
He says payment for traditional cash jobs like window cleaning should now | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
be made digitally. He's also recommending that people | :08:18. | :08:25. | |
who work in the gig economy - that's certain kinds of freelance | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
or short-term contract work - be classed as workers | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
and not self-employed. That change in classification | :08:32. | :08:33. | |
for more than one million people would mean some firms could have | :08:34. | :08:35. | |
to pay millions of pounds in national insurance | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
contributions every year. However, he doesn't call - | :08:39. | :08:39. | |
as some unions wanted - for the banning of zero-hours | :08:40. | :08:41. | |
contracts. Nor does he argue fees that workers | :08:42. | :08:43. | |
pay to take employers The Government, of course, | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
does not have to accept all of the recommendations | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
in the review, but Theresa May says reforming work practices involves | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
finding "the right balance Meanwhile, the Government has | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
reached a settlement on teachers' pay in England and Wales, | :08:58. | :09:06. | |
which will mean a real-terms cut for most teachers as they're limited | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
to a 1% pay rise over the next year, although those at the bottom | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
of the scale can receive a 2% rise. by Labour's Chi Onwurah - | :09:17. | :09:25. | |
she's the Shadow Minister For Industrial Strategy - | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
and by the Conservative What can you confidently expect to | :09:29. | :09:38. | |
change in your working conditions? I think you can expect the Government | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
to look carefully at this report. We commissioned it because we recognise | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
that people working in the so-called gig economy do not have the rights | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
that other people do. The flexible book economy is a good thing because | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
it creates jobs but we need to make sure people are looked after. Things | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
like having them paid national insurance but also get benefits like | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
sick pay and holiday pay I think is a really interesting idea. He also | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
says that people working for, say, Uber, are definitely getting the | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
minimum wage. The minimum wager has gone up by 26% under the | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
Conservatives. I am proud of that but I am keen to make sure that | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
everybody, including people in the gig economy, benefit from that | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
enormous increase in the minimum wage. But they will not necessarily | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
accept all of these recommendations, the Government? That's right. We are | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
hoping, by the way, that there will be constructive engagement from the | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
Labour side as well. And I hope many of these ideas will get taken | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
forward. But you have got to be very careful to make sure the balance is | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
struck between giving extra rights to low paid workers but not | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
destroying jobs at the same time. Over the summer, I think the | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
Government will be making sure that it strikes the right balance. Most | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
workers in the gig economy, as independent contractors, have no | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
protection against unfair dismissal, no right to redundancy payments, no | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
right to receive the minimum wage, you used the example of Uber, no | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
right to paid holiday and no bite to sickness pay. If their status is | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
reclassified, as Matthew Taylor suggests, will they get all those | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
things? That is what the Government is going to look at. What do you | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
think? If somebody is in paid employment with one employer who | :11:27. | :11:28. | |
directs their activity, to all intents and purposes, they are that | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
person's boss, then in my view, yes, they should get those rights. We | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
have to draw the line be somebody who is essentially an employee | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
versus someone who is a genuine freelance tractor working for lots | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
of different people. We have got to draw the line in exactly the right | :11:45. | :11:52. | |
place. Which part of the report, Chi Onwurah, would a Labour government | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
implement? The fundamental principle is that everyone is entitled to a | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
fair and decent, who is that they should be treated as human beings | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
and not as cogs in a machine. That is the fundamentals. The problem is | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
that, regardless of what Chris has been saying, for the last seven | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
years, we have not seen that, we have seen the greatest undermining | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
of working rights for decades. Which rights have been undermined? For | :12:22. | :12:29. | |
example, no access to tribunal fees, meaning that so many people can't | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
establish what their rights are, they can't get access to justice, if | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
you like. That was really a very underhand move by the Government in | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
order to prevent workers from establishing their rights. So, | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
that's one right which Matthew Taylor has recommended should be | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
reinstated. In terms of jobs that you mentioned, do you accept that | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
there has been a massive move in job creation over the last seven years, | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
it's not the Government, it is business, but you could say | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
government created the conditions, that is a good thing? It's good to | :13:08. | :13:15. | |
have jobs, but jobs should be a route out of poverty. What this | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
government has done is changing that, so it is no longer at route | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
out of poverty, because there are so many low-paid jobs. We see people, | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
nurses who are working but who are having to use food banks. I have | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
constituents having to have two low-paid jobs to make ends meet and | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
at the same time, not having the protection that you spoke about. I | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
have got to put the facts on record. We have created 2 million new jobs, | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
unemployment is at a 40-year low... People are poor. The minimum wage | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
has gone up by a staggering 26% under the Conservatives. And the | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
poorest paid 6 million have been lifted out of income tax entirely. | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
Basic rate taxpayers, including nurses and teachers and fireman, are | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
all paying ?1000 a year less in tax. You have got to put all of that | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
together. Given the mess we inherited, and given what is | :14:16. | :14:17. | |
happening in the rest of Europe, that is a fantastic achievement on | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
jobs, in very difficult circumstances. People are on average | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
?2600 a year poorer because of what you have done, tax increases, VAT, | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
you increased that, and also the absence of any wage rises amongst | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
both the public and the private sector. We have said that we will | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
put in place a ?10 minimum wage, you can't match that because you're | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
actually not even going to meet the promises that you have made. So, | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
people need to share this prosperity that you're talking about - and they | :14:52. | :14:53. | |
don't. Let's talk about another aspect of | :14:54. | :15:02. | |
protections and rights. There has been a lot of debate between the two | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
main parties about zero-hours contracts. Do you think there are a | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
good thing and should stay? 75% of the new jobs are full-time job. Only | :15:14. | :15:21. | |
3% are zero-hours contracts. There was a survey recently amongst | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
McDonald's employees, who are many of them on these flexible contract, | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
an 80% found it suited their lifestyle. What was wrong was when | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
their work so-called exclusive contracts where someone was tied to | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
a job, couldn't get employment elsewhere despite being guaranteed | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
no work, and we legislated to ban those, and it was the right thing to | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
do. Do you accept that many workers want that flexibility? Very strong | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
position it will evidence that says that with the right protections | :15:51. | :16:05. | |
people like that. -- strong statistical evidence. We want to | :16:06. | :16:14. | |
retain flexibility. Can't zero-hours contracts work if you have the right | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
protection? Zero-hours contracts give the flexibility and the control | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
of that flexibility to the employer. We look at the New Zealand model | :16:25. | :16:32. | |
that allows for flexibility and gives money hours. Is possible. -- | :16:33. | :16:43. | |
minimum hours. Jobs are the best way of lifting people out of poverty but | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
only have the right protections? Jobs can take you places and leave | :16:50. | :16:57. | |
you there, and that is why at The Big Issue, we are always trying to | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
move people on. You really have to see jobs as a stage up. Where I'd | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
agree with most of the ugly, left and right, is if someone said to me, | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
I want a job, and I'm waiting around, can you give me a job? And | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
applied for the job. I would probably put them with the rest of | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
the pile, but if they said to me, I'm working in Poundland, I don't | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
like the hours or what I'm doing, but I'm doing it because I have got | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
to do something to keep myself hail and hearty. I would pick that person | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
because that is someone who is going to make the most of it. Most of the | :17:40. | :17:47. | |
Poundland jobs are for people who are stuck, and we have to do | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
something about that. The people who are stuck, and for people who want | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
to grow and progress, is it right that gig economy companies are the | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
ones that should be paying National Insurance contributions, and will | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
the Government make that change? If someone is an employee, and people | :18:07. | :18:14. | |
who work for Uber more than 20 or 30 hours a week are, we need to look at | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
that. We need to make sure that national insurance is paid. We have | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
a massive deficit we need to close, and it is only fair that those | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
workers get the kinds of rights you mentioned, such as sick pay and | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
holiday pay. We need to make sure the workers have those protections. | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
We're here, and I hope Labour are as well, to stand up for those people | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
and make sure they are protected. If we push too far, the jobs miracle | :18:40. | :18:48. | |
may be put at risk. Mathieu Taylor also said we should end the cash in | :18:49. | :18:57. | |
hand economy. A lot of people do that - do you think it should stop? | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
The cash economy has been much exaggerated. I think people will | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
continue to use cash. The issue is when taxes and pensions | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
contributions are paid. Some of the points that Mathieu Taylor is making | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
around using technology to empower workers so that when you pay people, | :19:17. | :19:32. | |
there is a pension contribution. Technology has been about taking | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
power away from working people, but Labour will make sure that | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
technology works to empower people. Some of this is based on the working | :19:41. | :19:48. | |
practices of companies such as Uber. One of your colleagues today said | :19:49. | :19:57. | |
that it wasn't morally acceptable - do you agree? She says their working | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
practices are not morally acceptable. It is really important | :20:02. | :20:10. | |
to look at what the companies are doing and how they are treating | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
their working people. I say that Uber and other companies deliver | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
real benefits, and particularly if you're a woman on her own... Summit | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
is not morally unacceptable? You want the services, but you want to | :20:27. | :20:28. | |
make sure that their working practices are the right ones. You | :20:29. | :20:38. | |
need to talk to the drivers. If you do, probably 50% think it is good. | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
We have got to lift the Uber economy up. That is a fair point, John, and | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
that is hopefully what this will do. 100% of Uber drivers have chosen to | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
do that. We could do the whole programme on this, and we will at | :20:58. | :20:59. | |
some point! But with MPs now regularly reporting | :21:00. | :21:00. | |
cases of serious abuse, has the normal rough and tumble | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
of political life turned Well, that's the subject | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
of a debate to be held in the Commons later this week, | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
but here's the Conservative MP Sheryl Murray asking about it | :21:11. | :21:12. | |
at Prime Minister's Questions last Over the past months, I've had | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
swastikas carved into posters, social media posts like "burn | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
the witch" and "stab the C", people putting Labour Party posters | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
on my home, photographing them and pushing them | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
through my letterbox, and someone even urinated | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
on my office door - Can my right honourable friend | :21:30. | :21:31. | |
suggest what can be done to stop these things, which, | :21:32. | :21:41. | |
Mr Speaker, may well be putting off good people | :21:42. | :21:43. | |
from And at the weekend, the Labour MP | :21:44. | :21:45. | |
Yvette Cooper gave a speech about the "vitriolic abuse" | :21:46. | :21:53. | |
being dished out to many We're joined now by the MP who's | :21:54. | :21:55. | |
called this week's debate - he's Simon Hart - | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
and by Tulip Siddiq, who has said female MPs need | :22:02. | :22:03. | |
training to deal with what are known We've heard a lot about this over | :22:04. | :22:17. | |
the last few years. Simon, you have this abuse on Wednesday about abuse | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
faced by candidates in elections - how is this different from previous | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
campaigns? Between 2015 and 2017, 2015 was a civilised election. You | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
had a passionate debate, shook hands and went to the pub. It has become | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
more personal. The purpose of this is not to provide an MP and | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
opportunity to whinge... It might be genuine. Possibly, but it is members | :22:45. | :22:53. | |
of the public - people who want to put a poster up or make a donation - | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
they are being abused, getting broken windows and they are being | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
driven away from politics at a time when we need them. Who is doing it? | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
You say it was civilised in 2015, so what changed in two years? There is | :23:08. | :23:20. | |
a partisan element. There is quite a lot of anti-Semitism, homophobia, | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
sexism. It is not just left versus right. In my experience, it has been | :23:24. | :23:31. | |
typified by people feeling they have been given permission by the silence | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
from political leaders to engage in this without repercussions. Is there | :23:38. | :23:44. | |
a sense that Momentum, this grassroots organisation backed by | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, feels it has a licence to be abusive to people who | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
don't agree with their view? I think that is absolutely ridiculous, and I | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
think it's an easy way to cover up the fact that things are getting | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
worse. I have been abused since 2010 online, long before most people knew | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
who Jeremy Corbyn was, and it was directed at me, mostly because I was | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
a female politician. In the last two years, it has gotten worse, but it | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
tends to get worse around major events. Around Brexit, it got worse, | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
around Donald Trump's election, and during the general election. There | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
are people who are tweeting saying things like, you can't be a mother | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
and an MP, and then a string of swear words. Sorry, don't blame that | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
on Momentum. There was our online internet trolls. Yvette | :24:36. | :24:46. | |
Cooper had someone tweet about her about being in a first-class | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
carriage on a train. Who is that, in your mind, and what are they trying | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
to say? I don't know. I could give you an example of someone who | :24:58. | :25:06. | |
tweeted me yesterday, saying, go back to where you belong, Bongo- | :25:07. | :25:14. | |
Bongo - land. I don't blame Theresa May for one tweet sent by someone | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
who vote Conservative. It is easy to blame leaders for what people are | :25:19. | :25:26. | |
doing in their name. Are left-wingers getting it from the | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
right as much as the converse? I think it has played a significant | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
part, but it is not exclusive. Political leaders have a unique | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
platform to stand up and say, not in my name, not in my party's name. | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
Anyone who does this in the name of me and my party has no place on the | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
political stage. At the moment, there has been silence on this | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
topic. Tomorrow and the debate this week is about rectifying that and | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
forcing leaders to say, this will not be accepted. Jeremy Corbyn | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
tweeted in 2016, I completely condemn abuse of MPs of any kind. He | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
said on Question Time, there should be no online abuse, no abuse in | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
political debate. I don't make personal attacks on anyone. Yvette | :26:20. | :26:30. | |
Cooper has stipulated the left versus Right campaign, and how | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
Labour if it wanted to be credible needed to address this. What is | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
Jeremy Corbyn doing about it? What is he doing about it? He spoke up | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
during the election very strongly. He personally tweeted when I was | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
getting abuse saying it was unacceptable and that we should be | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
forcing women are flying, and he stood in solidarity. I think a | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
deafening silence is absolutely the wrong phrase to use. Is he giving | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
enough? Theresa May said yesterday that she was surprised by Jeremy | :27:04. | :27:10. | |
Corbyn's fell year to condemn vandalism. There are examples of | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
swastikas being drawn on Conservative posters. Should he do | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
more? I think he has done plenty. He rang me personally after the abuse. | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
I sort of feel we are missing the point by blaming leaders of | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
political parties. The fact is, Twitter and Facebook have to take | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
responsibility. If they want us to use their networks, they should take | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
responsibility. Facebook was very quick to get rid of a picture of a | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
woman breast-feeding, but when I reported a fake account set up in my | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
name, two weeks later I got a response. They should be acting | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
faster. Therefore, and we have had a lot of female MPs who have long had | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
vitriolic abuse against them, so a missed origin this -- a misogynist | :27:58. | :28:06. | |
strain. You can't change a culture that has happened for years. Is | :28:07. | :28:17. | |
absolutely not. We need to measure the extent of this and the impact it | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
is having. Rain-mac isn't it to do with the fact that ten years ago you | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
didn't have these means where every little person in every little | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
corner, every little freak and weirdo, as well as the general | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
public, having the chance to actually grabbed the debate and to | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
do things against people like yourself? And we really need to be | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
thinking about this kind of freedom - is it a freedom to be used | :28:49. | :28:55. | |
properly or improperly? There is existing legislation. If you want to | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
take someone to task, it is expensive and risky, so people are | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
disinclined to do it. I agree about social media, because this extends | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
beyond the bullying of MPs. It is about online bullying in general. | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
There will come a time when we will look back at this because we will | :29:13. | :29:14. | |
have invented the means of controlling this horrible, horrible | :29:15. | :29:21. | |
manifestation of ugliness. The laws exist, they have just not been | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
implemented as much. And you are calling for training? Training, but | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
also Twitter and Facebook need to take responsibility. If there is a | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
need for a change in legislation, perhaps this is one point on which | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn can be in the same voting lobby. | :29:43. | :29:44. | |
Cross-party consensus after all! Now, over the last 50 years, | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
Britain has become a richer place. But even in one of the wealthiest | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
countries in the world, one in five of us is classed | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
as living in poverty. It's the sort of thing you might | :29:55. | :30:14. | |
expect from the Victorians, a map of London, colour-coded by area | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
according to wealth or poverty. The black colour was what would you | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
define as the worst colour back then, and that was describe as | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
vicious. Although apparently, vicious did not mean that they would | :30:29. | :30:35. | |
attack you, it just meant they were prone to vice, drinking, gambling, | :30:36. | :30:42. | |
that kind of stuff. Lunesdale the wealthy shipping magnate Charles | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
Booz commissioned the maps in the 1880s, updating them ten years | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
later. They revised them by accompanying bobbies on the beat, | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
walking the area, so again, more experts. People who would walk | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
around the area on a regular basis and they knew what a street was | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
like, if it had woken windows, if the children had mud on their faces. | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
They knew it would not necessarily be that salubrious place. Booth | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
found more than 30% of Londoners were living in poverty at the end of | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
the 19th-century. The stats have changed since then, but so is the | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
way poverty is measured. Absolute poverty is the fraction of people | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
who have an income below a given line. A couple of hundred pounds a | :31:27. | :31:34. | |
week, for example. And that line goes up with inflation but doesn't | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
change other than that. A relative poverty line is a line which changes | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
depending on how rich the whole country is. So, it's 60% of the | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
middle income. As the country gets richer, the poverty line goes up, | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
and therefore, it is a measure of inequality between middle income and | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
low income people. Latest official figures suggest that after housing | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
costs, 20% of people in the UK live in absolute poverty, while 22% of | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
people live in relative poverty. Over the next few years, projections | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
show some increases in poverty. That's partly because employment | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
gains which have happened over the last few years are expected to peter | :32:25. | :32:32. | |
out. And cuts to working age benefits are really falling upon low | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
income families with children, and that suppresses their incomes as | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
well as. It was cuts to some benefits that led Iain Duncan Smith | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
to resign as Work and Pensions Secretary last year. But before | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
that, he changed the way child poverty was measured. The previous | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
Vale government having defined a child is being poor when it lives in | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
a household with an income below 60% of the UK average. My problem with | :32:56. | :33:02. | |
the 60% line was, it the only told me one thing, which is, you are | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
below it all you are above it. What I was trying to do was to say, look, | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
this is something where we need to say, what is the measure going to | :33:12. | :33:13. | |
be? Educational failure, dysfunctional family background, | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
family break down, find really good measurements, and then we can begin | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
to have a framework to say, now we know what we have to do, to get that | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
family, sort it, and moving out - that's the key, moving out. Dealing | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
with the causes of poverty might be more complicated than measuring it. | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
Even the Victorians realised there is more to it than just income. John | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
Bird, what does living in poverty in Britain in 2017 look like to you? To | :33:43. | :33:50. | |
me, it looks like people who are stuck on a very, very small amount | :33:51. | :33:58. | |
of money, who are not able to take advantage of some of the things, | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
like democracy. Poverty, if you're in poverty, you are not in | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
democracy, because democracy doesn't cover poverty. You are marginalised | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
in every way? Yeah, you're not involved in the debate, largely | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
because you are in some senses worn down, eroded, by what is happening | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
in life. You are living a stopgap life, you're living a life where | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
there is very little future and there's very little opportunity. | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
Your children are not preparing for higher education or further | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
education, so what happens is that you are stuck, and it seems that all | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
the cards are stacked against you. And is the way out of that trap, as | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
it seems, the way you have describe it, is money the answer? Money is | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
the answer, but it's not necessarily just to dump a couple of thousands | :34:52. | :34:58. | |
pounds a week on people. We have got to go back. What we have got is, we | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
have got a failing system of government which is largely | :35:03. | :35:04. | |
responsible for this almost institutional poverty. If you look | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
at the way that we respond to children and families in need and | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
children who were in abuse, we take them out, we put them into care, we | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
spend thousands of pounds, maybe ?3000 a week on them, we spend ?1 | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
million on them... And stick and you put them back in that failing home? | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
At the age of 16, they come out with the reading age of 12-year-old. You | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
have schools system which fails 37% of the children... Even though there | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
have been improvements and there are more children in our schools? Yes, | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
these are Justine Greening scenes figures, I thought it was 30, she | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
says it is 37. But the point is, if you have a mechanism, a government | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
that cannot respond to that, that uses social security not as social | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
opportunity... Tax credits, for instance, were you a fan of those, | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
which Gordon Brown believed would help families who were just about | :36:04. | :36:11. | |
managing? I am a great believer in using social security for social | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
opportunity. I don't think there is enough given to get people out of | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
the quagmire of poverty, lack of education, lack of... If you go back | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
to the school, the failing 37%, they're the people who fill up our | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
prisons and our long-term unemployed, the people who fill up | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
the A department, who use it as a drop-in. How helpful are these | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
measures of poverty, absolute and relative poverty? The figures are | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
quite stark, 22% living in relative poverty. But is it, as the | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
contributor said in the film, more about inequality, as parts of the | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
population get richer, begging those at the bottom look even poorer, is | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
it a helpful measure? I'm not too happy on the way people measure | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
poverty. I think the way you measure poverty is, you measure it on the | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
basis of the individual, what can the individual do in their lives to | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
change their lives, to feed their children, to improve their children? | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
I don't think any of the devices that have been used, even those | :37:15. | :37:21. | |
which were mentioned, they were very broad brush. We tend to reduce | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
people to statistics. What we should be doing is, not creating all of | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
these ghettos, like we did at Grenfell Tower, pushing people into | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
social security, rather than using it as an opportunity, a way of | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
getting out of poverty. It was invented for that purpose. So, we | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
get this really, really weird world, a lot of the poverty could be | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
changed if the Government changed the way in which it dealt with | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
people in need and Hilton them so that they can get out of need and | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
instead of being rescued, they could themselves become rescuers. While we | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
have been on air, the Prime Minister has been speaking, as we said | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
earlier, at the launch of the review into working practices. Let's take a | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
look between the nature of employment is central both to our | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
national economic success, but also also to the lives we all lead. From | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
the end of our childhood, until the years of retirement, if we don't win | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
the National Lottery jackpot, the vast majority of us will expect to | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
devote at least half of our waking hours on most days of the week to | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
work. A good job can be a genuine vocation, providing intellectual and | :38:35. | :38:36. | |
personal fulfilment as well as economic security. With good work | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
can come dignity and a sense of self-worth. It can promote good | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
mental and physical health and emotional well-being. Theresa May, | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
responding to the report she commissioned into working practices. | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
Now, it's time to find out the answer to our quiz. | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
And today the Prime Minister has reached something of a milestone, | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
equalling the term in office of one of her predecessors. | :39:03. | :39:04. | |
A) Gordon Brown, b) William Pitt the Younger c) Alec Douglas-Home, | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
or d) fictional prime minister Jim Hacker? | :39:10. | :39:10. | |
But unlike Theresa May, he never won an election. Well, it is right to! | :39:11. | :39:28. | |
Yes, Theresa May has today clocked up 363 days in office, | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
meaning she draws level with Alec Douglas-Home. | :39:32. | :39:33. | |
I wonder if they've had a whip-round and got her a cake. | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
Let's have a look at some of the shortest and longest | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
The shortest serving Prime Minister ever was George Canning, | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
who lasted a total of 119 day before his death in August 1827, | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
although his successor, the Viscount Goderich, | :39:46. | :39:47. | |
Unable to hold Canning's coalition of Tories and Whigs together, | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
In the 20th century, while Sir Alec Douglas-Home lasted | :39:54. | :40:02. | |
just 363 days in Downing Street before losing the 1964 | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
In fact, there was a shorter residency of No 10. | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
Bonar Law managed only 211 days in office because of ill health, | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
despite winning a clear majority in the 1922 election. | :40:13. | :40:14. | |
Winston Churchill was resident in Downing Street for eight | :40:15. | :40:16. | |
years and 239 days, although that was split | :40:17. | :40:18. | |
He was surpassed by Tony Blair, who lasted for a grand total of 10 | :40:19. | :40:30. | |
years and 56 days before he decided to hand over to Gordon Brown. | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
Yet even he did not manage to overtake Margaret Thatcher's term | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
She is still only the seventh longest-serving Prime Minister, | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
as the record is still held by the first official resident | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
of No 10 Downing Street, Robert Walpole. | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
He served for a total of 20 years and 314 days until - | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
at the great age of 65 - he was considered too | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
old by his opponents to carry on in office. | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
Well, we're joined now by Catherine Haddon, | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
who is the resident historian at the Institute for Government. | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
Is longevity a sign of success for a Prime Minister? Not necessarily. I | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
think there are several ways of characterising success. It is really | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
the modern premierships, it is things like party management, public | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
persona, the policies which are well remembered, and then finally, | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
intellectual matters. So, you would automatically think, they must have | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
been successful if they keep winning elections? Absolutely, and for that | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
reason, staying in office for a long period of time, but there's many | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
factors coming into that. Some very well remembered Prime ministers who | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
lasted only a short period, they might be well remembered for | :41:46. | :41:52. | |
failings. With talking almost a year of Theresa May's premiership. And a | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
lot has happened! It has. But you look back two years, and we had | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
David Cameron on the first Conservative majority since John | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
Major. He looked in a very commanding position, he had a strong | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
Chancellor. The Conservative Party were very grateful for the wind that | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
they had. He had managed to coalition government, and he seemed | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
to be developing his own arsenal premiership. And then... It was all | :42:18. | :42:24. | |
over, after the referendum! The idea of having a Prime Minister for 20 | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
years seems alien to us, do you think that could happen again? I | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
would never rule anything out. As your graphic showed, if you look | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
back to the 19th century, the 18th-century, we had a lot of | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
premierships could last a year, maybe a bit longer and a lot of | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
turnover. Then you have periods where you do have one which lasts | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
for a period of time, perhaps because there is something which is | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
going on, a war or some big policy area, or a lack of contenders. That | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
is the other thing, the other contenders. Do you think longevity | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
is a good thing? If you are in for a long time, you can affect real | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
change? My problem is this, as we witnessed earlier over the Taylor | :43:08. | :43:13. | |
report, that there are these entrenched as Asians, and often, the | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
truth is in the middle. So I'm much more interested in looking at | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
coalitions. I think we need a coalition now, I think we need a | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
cabinet of talents, because I think we are in the greatest place oddly | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
we have been in since the Second World War. And you would like to see | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
a grand coalition? I would like to see a grand coalition. A grand | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
coalition we three are! Thank you very much for coming in today. | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
Thanks to all our guests, especially John Bird. | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage | :43:49. | :43:51. |