Browse content similar to 14/11/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to
the Daily Politics, | 0:00:39 | 0:00:41 | |
where MPs are getting ready to begin
a marathon series of debates | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
over Brexit that could
last until Christmas. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:47 | |
The EU Withdrawal Bill is intended
to copy EU rules into British law, | 0:00:47 | 0:00:52 | |
but the government's opponents, | 0:00:52 | 0:00:54 | |
including a number of
Conservative rebels, | 0:00:54 | 0:01:00 | |
are threatening guerilla warfare
in the Commons | 0:01:00 | 0:01:01 | |
with hundreds of amendments. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:02 | |
We'll bring you up to speed. | 0:01:02 | 0:01:04 | |
The chancellor Philip Hammond
is still beavering away | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
on next week's Budget,
so will he welcome some | 0:01:06 | 0:01:08 | |
friendly advice from
backbencher Jacob Rees Mogg? | 0:01:08 | 0:01:11 | |
We'll speak to him about his
alternative Budget for Brexit. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:15 | |
It's been claimed that vital NHS
operations and treatments | 0:01:15 | 0:01:19 | |
are increasingly being rationed
in England but is there a good case | 0:01:19 | 0:01:22 | |
for restricting treatment
for smokers or the overweight? | 0:01:22 | 0:01:27 | |
And there's plenty for Theresa May's
cabinet to chew over when they meet | 0:01:29 | 0:01:34 | |
this morning amid reports
that they're not exactly | 0:01:34 | 0:01:36 | |
getting along swimmingly. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:40 | |
We'll ask a member of
John Major's cabinet for some | 0:01:40 | 0:01:42 | |
tips on restoring harmony. | 0:01:42 | 0:01:48 | |
All that in the next hour on another
busy day here at Westminster, | 0:01:48 | 0:01:51 | |
and with us for the whole
of the programme today, | 0:01:51 | 0:01:58 | |
it's the former head
of the Royal College | 0:01:58 | 0:02:00 | |
of GPs Clare Gerada. | 0:02:00 | 0:02:01 | |
She is still a GP and she also
campaigned with the Liberal | 0:02:01 | 0:02:04 | |
Democrats at the last election. | 0:02:04 | 0:02:05 | |
Welcome to the show. | 0:02:05 | 0:02:06 | |
First today, the monthly inflation
figures for the UK have been | 0:02:06 | 0:02:09 | |
released this morning,
that's the consumer price index | 0:02:09 | 0:02:11 | |
which measures the rate of increase
in the prices of goods and services. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:14 | |
And according to the Office
for National Statistics it has | 0:02:14 | 0:02:17 | |
remained at its five-year high
of 3%, which means there is no let | 0:02:17 | 0:02:20 | |
up in the cost of living squeeze
hitting UK households, | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
although the rate has not
risen higher as predicted | 0:02:22 | 0:02:24 | |
by some economists. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:31 | |
Well let's talk now to our economics
editor Kamal Ahmed | 0:02:31 | 0:02:34 | |
who can tell us what that means. | 0:02:34 | 0:02:39 | |
Has it peaked, inflation? Well,
certainly, there seems to be some | 0:02:39 | 0:02:41 | |
evidence that the foot has come off
the inflation accelerates a full. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:47 | |
First of all, the sterling effect,
so, the decline in the value of | 0:02:47 | 0:02:51 | |
sterling after the referendum meant
that the goods and services we | 0:02:51 | 0:02:54 | |
imported into the UK became more
expensive, that pushed up inflation. | 0:02:54 | 0:03:01 | |
Inflation is a comparative number,
compared with what is happening this | 0:03:01 | 0:03:03 | |
time a year ago, that inflation
effect starts to fall out of the | 0:03:03 | 0:03:09 | |
data, Stirling, although it is low,
is staying at the same low rate. | 0:03:09 | 0:03:15 | |
That inflation effect seems to
dissipate a bit. Well prices are not | 0:03:15 | 0:03:20 | |
rising as fast as they were this
time last year. The big question, as | 0:03:20 | 0:03:24 | |
you suggest, does it mean we have
hit a peak? We are seeing the top of | 0:03:24 | 0:03:29 | |
the upward curve, certainly, the
Bank of England believes the peak | 0:03:29 | 0:03:33 | |
will be reached by the end of the
year. There are still some in | 0:03:33 | 0:03:38 | |
inflationary pressures, food prices
are the highest they have been since | 0:03:38 | 0:03:42 | |
2013, unrest in the Middle East,
global growth, increasing demand, | 0:03:42 | 0:03:46 | |
has meant oil prices are starting to
push up again. Although, yes, for | 0:03:46 | 0:03:53 | |
the moment, inflation has eased,
whether or not... It is not the | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
peak, it will increase a little bit
more. The overall trajectory is | 0:03:57 | 0:04:00 | |
starting to come down. Let's pick up
on two of those things, food prices, | 0:04:00 | 0:04:07 | |
your supermarket shop is still more
expensive than it has been in recent | 0:04:07 | 0:04:11 | |
times and wages are still not
keeping pace with prices. Average | 0:04:11 | 0:04:16 | |
household income increases are
around 2.2%. If you look at food | 0:04:16 | 0:04:22 | |
inflation, running at 4.2%. Exactly
as you say, that squeeze on living | 0:04:22 | 0:04:26 | |
standards continues, food is the
largest proportion of our weekly | 0:04:26 | 0:04:32 | |
expenditure, and certainly for
poorer households, it is more | 0:04:32 | 0:04:36 | |
significant than for richer
households, the issue you are | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
starting to see is this big increase
in input inflation into the food | 0:04:39 | 0:04:45 | |
system, into supermarkets, they have
suddenly had to pay a lot more for | 0:04:45 | 0:04:48 | |
the food imported from the European
continent, in particular and | 0:04:48 | 0:04:53 | |
elsewhere, because of the weakness
of sterling. Those prices are | 0:04:53 | 0:04:57 | |
starting to be pushed through the
system, coming out the other end, in | 0:04:57 | 0:05:01 | |
food inflation. That means it is
tougher, when looking at the | 0:05:01 | 0:05:05 | |
Christmas spend on food. Again,
because of the sterling effect, | 0:05:05 | 0:05:10 | |
those effects may start dissipating
over time. But, that fuel price | 0:05:10 | 0:05:15 | |
increase, some suggestions that fuel
prices will start rising again by | 0:05:15 | 0:05:19 | |
the end of the year, that will push
up the inflation numbers. Just | 0:05:19 | 0:05:24 | |
briefly, what about reaction from
the Bank of England, we saw interest | 0:05:24 | 0:05:27 | |
rates double from a very low bar,
but I have seen this strange phrase, | 0:05:27 | 0:05:32 | |
the Bank of England will stretch out
the horizon over which it plans to | 0:05:32 | 0:05:35 | |
rein in inflation. Does that mean it
will not take further action for the | 0:05:35 | 0:05:39 | |
moment? For the foreseeable future
that is absolutely correct, many | 0:05:39 | 0:05:44 | |
economists say there will not be
another interest rate rise until the | 0:05:44 | 0:05:47 | |
end of next year, and the interest
rate rise, that very small number, | 0:05:47 | 0:05:54 | |
0.25%, once again. The Bank of
England is not just concerned with | 0:05:54 | 0:05:58 | |
inflation, where the pressure seems
to be coming off slightly, but also | 0:05:58 | 0:06:03 | |
concerned with economic growth, and
the real problems are in economic | 0:06:03 | 0:06:07 | |
growth, not in inflation. This will
encourage those dovish members of | 0:06:07 | 0:06:12 | |
the monetary policy committee, to
say, we need to hold off any further | 0:06:12 | 0:06:17 | |
interest rate rises, and weaken the
hand of the Hawks who think there | 0:06:17 | 0:06:22 | |
should be more interest rate rises
to control inflation. Today's | 0:06:22 | 0:06:26 | |
figure, I think, means any interest
rate rise, when it comes, is a long | 0:06:26 | 0:06:32 | |
way off and will be very small. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:36 | |
In the public sector, when you look
at the NHS, talk about busting the | 0:06:36 | 0:06:39 | |
1% pay freeze, which would be
welcomed, but with inflation at 3%, | 0:06:39 | 0:06:45 | |
it is not as much of a rise, in real
terms, it is still a cut all stop it | 0:06:45 | 0:06:49 | |
is still a cut but more importantly.
-- it is still a cut. -- it is still | 0:06:49 | 0:06:56 | |
a cut but more importantly,
medicines I prescribed are from | 0:06:56 | 0:07:00 | |
overseas, China, America, I wonder
how much we see the health inflation | 0:07:00 | 0:07:05 | |
impact if we do not have sensible
trade deals post "Brexit", I know | 0:07:05 | 0:07:08 | |
that we will be discussing it later
on in the show but for me, the big | 0:07:08 | 0:07:13 | |
one is the health inflation costs
and what that means. That will feed | 0:07:13 | 0:07:17 | |
into the overall economy, because we
have medicines, we take them for | 0:07:17 | 0:07:22 | |
granted but they are very expensive
and if they are going to cost more | 0:07:22 | 0:07:25 | |
because we do not get proper deals,
then inflation will rise more. I'm | 0:07:25 | 0:07:30 | |
not an economist, just a simple
punter, but I see and read the | 0:07:30 | 0:07:34 | |
newspapers and think, we are in a
very precarious position. We will | 0:07:34 | 0:07:38 | |
return to this when we talk about
Brexit in more detail. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:43 | |
Now it's time for our daily quiz. | 0:07:43 | 0:07:44 | |
The question for today
is which political relative | 0:07:44 | 0:07:46 | |
is heading to the jungle
for the new series of ITV's | 0:07:46 | 0:07:49 | |
I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here? | 0:07:49 | 0:07:51 | |
A) Samantha Cameron, wife of David.
b) Philip May, husband of Theresa. | 0:07:51 | 0:07:54 | |
c) Piers Corbyn, brother of Jeremy. | 0:07:54 | 0:07:55 | |
or d) Stanley Johnson,
father of Boris. | 0:07:55 | 0:07:57 | |
At the end of the show Clare
will give us the correct answer. | 0:07:57 | 0:07:58 | |
Let's turn to the story
that's going to dominate | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
here at Westminster for the next few
days, | 0:08:10 | 0:08:12 | |
and frankly for
the following months and years, | 0:08:12 | 0:08:15 | |
as MPs brace themselves for up
to eight hours of debate | 0:08:15 | 0:08:17 | |
on the EU Withdrawal Bill
in the Commons today. | 0:08:17 | 0:08:20 | |
It's a crucial piece of the Brexit
legislation | 0:08:20 | 0:08:22 | |
designed to copy
across EU rules into domestic UK law | 0:08:22 | 0:08:25 | |
to ensure a smooth transition
on the day after we leave. | 0:08:25 | 0:08:27 | |
And it looks like storm clouds
could be gathering over Parliament | 0:08:27 | 0:08:30 | |
as MPs begin to thrash out
the details of the bill. | 0:08:30 | 0:08:35 | |
Labour and a number of Conservative
rebels | 0:08:35 | 0:08:37 | |
have already expressed anger
at Theresa May's announcement | 0:08:37 | 0:08:39 | |
that the date we actually leave
the EU will be put into the bill | 0:08:39 | 0:08:42 | |
and fixed at the 29th March 2019. | 0:08:42 | 0:08:46 | |
Mrs May wrote in the Telegraph
that her government would not | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
tolerate attempts from any quarter
to use amendments to the bill | 0:08:49 | 0:08:53 | |
to slow down or stop our
departure from the EU. | 0:08:53 | 0:09:02 | |
However, nearly 400 amendments have
been tabled | 0:09:02 | 0:09:04 | |
and although only
a number will be voted on, | 0:09:04 | 0:09:06 | |
they could cause real problems | 0:09:06 | 0:09:08 | |
for a government with a slim
majority in the Commons. | 0:09:08 | 0:09:12 | |
The amendments include calls to curb
the so-called "Henry VIII powers" | 0:09:14 | 0:09:16 | |
that would allow ministers to change
laws without much Parliamentary | 0:09:16 | 0:09:19 | |
scrutiny and a demand that we don't
actually leave the European Union | 0:09:19 | 0:09:22 | |
until a new treaty establishing
a future relationship between the UK | 0:09:22 | 0:09:25 | |
and EU has been agreed by MPs. | 0:09:25 | 0:09:31 | |
Jeremy Corbyn wants to keep
the European Court of Justice's | 0:09:36 | 0:09:41 | |
oversight over us during any
transition period | 0:09:41 | 0:09:47 | |
and Remain-supporting Conservatives
could join with Labour | 0:09:47 | 0:09:49 | |
and rebel on the issue
of giving parliament a so-called | 0:09:49 | 0:09:52 | |
"meaningful vote" once
the deal has been done. | 0:09:52 | 0:09:55 | |
Yesterday Brexit secretary
David Davis | 0:09:55 | 0:09:57 | |
appeared to give
ground on that issue, | 0:09:57 | 0:09:58 | |
promising a final
parliamentary vote. | 0:09:58 | 0:10:01 | |
I can now confirm that once we have
reached an agreement, | 0:10:01 | 0:10:04 | |
we will bring forward a specific
piece of primary legislation | 0:10:04 | 0:10:06 | |
to implement that agreement. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:10 | |
This will be known as the Withdrawal
Agreement and Implementation Bill. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:14 | |
This confirms that the major policy
set out in the withdrawal agreement | 0:10:14 | 0:10:16 | |
will be directly implemented into UK
law by primary legislation, | 0:10:16 | 0:10:19 | |
not by secondary legislation
in the Withdrawal Bill. | 0:10:19 | 0:10:23 | |
This also means that Parliament
will be given time to debate, | 0:10:23 | 0:10:25 | |
scrutinise and vote on the final
agreement we strike | 0:10:25 | 0:10:28 | |
with the European Union. | 0:10:28 | 0:10:29 | |
This agreement will only hold
if Parliament approves. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:38 | |
That was David Davis speaking
yesterday, | 0:10:38 | 0:10:42 | |
but was that concession
enough for Conservatives | 0:10:42 | 0:10:45 | |
who might be thinking about voting
against the government? | 0:10:45 | 0:10:47 | |
Well, Dominic Grieve is a Tory MP
who has tabled 19 amendments | 0:10:47 | 0:10:50 | |
to the bill and has signed more. | 0:10:50 | 0:10:52 | |
He's in central lobby
of the Houses of Parliament. | 0:10:52 | 0:10:54 | |
The government is promising to
enshrine the "Brexit" deal in | 0:10:54 | 0:10:57 | |
primary legislation which means MPs
will be able to make amendments to | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
the deal, does that give Parliament
a meaningful vote that you will | 0:11:00 | 0:11:05 | |
support? It is a very significant
change and I greatly welcome it, | 0:11:05 | 0:11:08 | |
that said, it remains the case that
the Secretary of State, in | 0:11:08 | 0:11:14 | |
explaining it, also highlighted that
he thought the powers to do this by | 0:11:14 | 0:11:20 | |
statutory incident could not be
removed. Feels like it might be | 0:11:20 | 0:11:26 | |
necessary to use them and can only
have debate on the statute after we | 0:11:26 | 0:11:30 | |
have actually left. That is clearly
a very unsatisfactory state of | 0:11:30 | 0:11:35 | |
affairs, the government may have a
point on this but we will need to | 0:11:35 | 0:11:39 | |
explore it during the course of the
passage of the legislation and see | 0:11:39 | 0:11:43 | |
how we can try to make sure that in
virtue all circumstances Parliament | 0:11:43 | 0:11:48 | |
will have two reacts to the statue,
which in my view will have to be | 0:11:48 | 0:11:51 | |
necessary in order to leave the EU.
At this stage, we are not saying you | 0:11:51 | 0:11:55 | |
will vote against the government or
push ahead with an amendment for | 0:11:55 | 0:12:00 | |
this so-called meaningful vote? No,
yes, I should say, that is exact | 0:12:00 | 0:12:05 | |
what I am saying, the amendments
table, series amendment, the | 0:12:05 | 0:12:10 | |
government has come back with an
important concession, at the same | 0:12:10 | 0:12:14 | |
time, that concession has been
qualified, and we need to look at | 0:12:14 | 0:12:19 | |
the terms of the qualification. This
is part of the process of what | 0:12:19 | 0:12:23 | |
looking at a committee is all about.
I keep what optimism that we will | 0:12:23 | 0:12:29 | |
resolve many of the issues on which
I have taken amendments by | 0:12:29 | 0:12:32 | |
consenting between the government
and myself. -- consensus. Looking at | 0:12:32 | 0:12:37 | |
Conservative colleagues who were at
a meeting with the Chief Whip | 0:12:37 | 0:12:41 | |
yesterday, and there was some anger
expressed at that time, were you at | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
that meeting? I was present at the
meeting with the Chief Whip | 0:12:44 | 0:12:48 | |
yesterday, yes. How bad was the
feeling between yourself and the | 0:12:48 | 0:12:56 | |
whip? I will not discuss the meeting
but there was considerable anger | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
among sections of the Conservative
MPs, the government having tabled | 0:12:59 | 0:13:03 | |
the amendment, accompanied by a sort
of pronouncement that there would be | 0:13:03 | 0:13:07 | |
fixed on the face of the bill a date
of exit, March 2019 I could not | 0:13:07 | 0:13:12 | |
understand why they were doing this
and it made no sense to me at all | 0:13:12 | 0:13:15 | |
except as a placatory offering to
those of my colleagues who really | 0:13:15 | 0:13:19 | |
want to take us out of the EU
without any deal at all. I | 0:13:19 | 0:13:24 | |
subsequently discovered this morning
that the government tabled another | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
amendment, which they did not talk
about on Friday, which, if passed by | 0:13:27 | 0:13:30 | |
the house, entirely negates the
effect of their first Amendment. I | 0:13:30 | 0:13:37 | |
have to say, this is all a bit
regrettable, I think the government | 0:13:37 | 0:13:42 | |
should be treating Parliament as
grown-ups and we should not have | 0:13:42 | 0:13:45 | |
games going on which are likely to
make people irritated. Why do you | 0:13:45 | 0:13:49 | |
think they are playing games, they
obviously want to have people like | 0:13:49 | 0:13:55 | |
yourself on site for this important
piece of Brexit legislation, you say | 0:13:55 | 0:13:59 | |
there was a lot of anger expressed
at the time but what is essentially | 0:13:59 | 0:14:02 | |
wrong with having an end state on
the face of the bill? And end date | 0:14:02 | 0:14:07 | |
on the face of the bill, which is
obligatory, is a crazy thing to do. | 0:14:07 | 0:14:13 | |
We do not know exactly how the
negotiations will and, it could lead | 0:14:13 | 0:14:17 | |
to a situation where we leave the EU
in chaos, whereas just by extending | 0:14:17 | 0:14:22 | |
the period of membership by one
week, for example, we would have | 0:14:22 | 0:14:27 | |
been able to get the deal the
government is seeking. It is a | 0:14:27 | 0:14:31 | |
completely pointless amendment and
should never have been introduced to | 0:14:31 | 0:14:34 | |
the statute books. What the Prime
Minister said that we will not | 0:14:34 | 0:14:36 | |
tolerate attempts from any quarter
to allow amendments to block the | 0:14:36 | 0:14:43 | |
democratic will of the people. She's
talking about you. I don't know if | 0:14:43 | 0:14:48 | |
she's talking about me or not, my
task as a parliamentarian is to | 0:14:48 | 0:14:52 | |
listen to the consequences of the
referendum, I have always said this, | 0:14:52 | 0:14:56 | |
and I have been consistent in not
trying to obstruct Brexit taking | 0:14:56 | 0:14:59 | |
place but that is not removed my
responsibility as a parliamentarian | 0:14:59 | 0:15:03 | |
to scrutinise legislation and ensure
that every stage, people, the public | 0:15:03 | 0:15:08 | |
generally, understand what we are
doing and the consequences of what | 0:15:08 | 0:15:12 | |
we are doing, and that is what I
intend to do as this legislation | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
goes through. I'm confident that as
we go through this, we will end up | 0:15:15 | 0:15:21 | |
with better legislation at the end.
Are you prepared to vote against the | 0:15:21 | 0:15:24 | |
government if you don't think this
legislation is fit for purpose in | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
your mind? | 0:15:27 | 0:15:28 | |
I said at second reading if the
legislation was not improved, it was | 0:15:34 | 0:15:39 | |
questionable as to whether it was
fit for purpose. We believe that as | 0:15:39 | 0:15:44 | |
a hypothetical question. It sounds
as if you are prepared to vote | 0:15:44 | 0:15:47 | |
against the government. Are you
prepared to consider what will | 0:15:47 | 0:15:51 | |
happen if you vote against the
government, it could lead to a vote | 0:15:51 | 0:15:55 | |
of no-confidence the government
could fall? You have taken that into | 0:15:55 | 0:15:59 | |
account? I have taken everything
into account, but if the legislation | 0:15:59 | 0:16:04 | |
is not fit for purpose, it will not
deliver what the public want, a | 0:16:04 | 0:16:08 | |
smooth Brexit. Are you prepared to
bring the government down for that? | 0:16:08 | 0:16:14 | |
That is an entirely hypothetical
question. I am a supporter of the | 0:16:14 | 0:16:18 | |
government and my task is to ensure
the government succeeds. Would you | 0:16:18 | 0:16:23 | |
join forces with Labour on a number
of these amendments to improve the | 0:16:23 | 0:16:28 | |
bill? The question is not a question
of joining forces, as a | 0:16:28 | 0:16:33 | |
parliamentarian I express a view on
the floor of the house as to what I | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
think could improve the bill. If
there are other members across the | 0:16:36 | 0:16:40 | |
house to share my views, they were
expressed that as well. If you do | 0:16:40 | 0:16:45 | |
vote with Labour colleagues, are you
a collaborator as your Tory | 0:16:45 | 0:16:50 | |
colleague Bill Cash suggests? All I
will say to Bill Cash is that he has | 0:16:50 | 0:16:55 | |
probably rebelled against the
Conservative government more often | 0:16:55 | 0:16:58 | |
than any single other colleague on
the Conservative benches in the | 0:16:58 | 0:17:01 | |
course of his career. I think with
one exception over HS2, I do not | 0:17:01 | 0:17:09 | |
think I have ever rebelled against
the government after 20 years in | 0:17:09 | 0:17:13 | |
Parliament. Was it helpful that will
cash did that? I was not around, but | 0:17:13 | 0:17:19 | |
he thought it was the right thing to
do with his conscience and decided | 0:17:19 | 0:17:26 | |
to support the government at the
time despite disagreeing with them. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:30 | |
So a deal is agreed on mice the 29th
at 3pm in the afternoon and it comes | 0:17:30 | 0:17:36 | |
to Parliament and you do not like
the deal. What we do because it will | 0:17:36 | 0:17:41 | |
be eight hours before the EU leaves
the EU? We will make an assessment | 0:17:41 | 0:17:46 | |
of the situation as it stands at the
time. The only option open to | 0:17:46 | 0:17:51 | |
Parliament is either to accept the
deal or reject the deal and face a | 0:17:51 | 0:17:55 | |
chaotic exit without any agreement
to move into any transitional | 0:17:55 | 0:17:59 | |
arrangement. That is a problem for
Parliament and indeed the public | 0:17:59 | 0:18:05 | |
which they will have to face up to
at the end of this risky and complex | 0:18:05 | 0:18:09 | |
process. If you reject it at that
point, there will be no time to go | 0:18:09 | 0:18:13 | |
back to the EU to undo the bill?
That is right unless the EU is | 0:18:13 | 0:18:19 | |
prepared to re-negotiate. Which of
course it is not at the moment. | 0:18:19 | 0:18:24 | |
Which of course it
is not at the moment. | 0:18:24 | 0:18:26 | |
Well, to discuss this further we're
joined by former Conservative | 0:18:26 | 0:18:28 | |
cabinet minister Theresa Villiers,
who campaigned for Brexit, | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
and by Labour's Chris Leslie
who is a member of the pro-EU | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
campaign group Open Britain. | 0:18:33 | 0:18:34 | |
Welcome to both of you. Chris
Leslie, are you pleased that David | 0:18:34 | 0:18:39 | |
Davis has now promised a meaningful
vote to Parliament? He has tried to | 0:18:39 | 0:18:44 | |
polish it up as though it is a
meaningful vote, but within the | 0:18:44 | 0:18:49 | |
space of 15 minutes all of those
impressions quickly fell away and I | 0:18:49 | 0:18:56 | |
think most parliamentarians,
including Dominic and others, are | 0:18:56 | 0:18:59 | |
now saying, hang on a minute, what
is the point of offering an act of | 0:18:59 | 0:19:04 | |
Parliament, a bill that will become
an act of Parliament, after the | 0:19:04 | 0:19:08 | |
withdrawal agreement has been signed
and sealed by ministers? The whole | 0:19:08 | 0:19:13 | |
point of parliamentary democracy is
you can shape events, you can steer | 0:19:13 | 0:19:16 | |
what happens. If you have that Bill
before the withdrawal agreement is | 0:19:16 | 0:19:22 | |
signed, so it is a draft withdrawal
agreement, that would be a | 0:19:22 | 0:19:27 | |
significant concession. Otherwise it
is a sham. When do you want it to | 0:19:27 | 0:19:32 | |
be? Surely the same situation will
stand if it is a month or two months | 0:19:32 | 0:19:37 | |
before we leave the EU? There still
will not be time to redo the bill | 0:19:37 | 0:19:41 | |
before we go back to Brussels.
Because this is the most important | 0:19:41 | 0:19:46 | |
change in a generation we should not
box ourselves into an artificial | 0:19:46 | 0:19:50 | |
timetable. We have to get it right.
When a draft, is from the European | 0:19:50 | 0:19:57 | |
Commission, from ministers of the
Crown, Parliament can look at it and | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
decide if it is good enough. Does it
protect businesses and jobs? Is it | 0:20:01 | 0:20:07 | |
making sure that European medicines
can flow, that we can have tariff | 0:20:07 | 0:20:13 | |
free trade? Or is it going to really
harm this country significantly? I | 0:20:13 | 0:20:17 | |
think we have got to be serious and
growing up about it and deal with | 0:20:17 | 0:20:21 | |
that before the withdrawal treaty is
signed. Explain to our viewers why | 0:20:21 | 0:20:27 | |
does offer from David Davis is a
game changer? It is a very important | 0:20:27 | 0:20:32 | |
compromise the government has made,
signalling it wants to work across | 0:20:32 | 0:20:36 | |
parties with people with different
views on these matters. It will give | 0:20:36 | 0:20:41 | |
Parliament the opportunity to
scrutinise in detail the withdrawal | 0:20:41 | 0:20:45 | |
agreement. I think it is a sensible
move and it does demonstrate that | 0:20:45 | 0:20:49 | |
the government wants to work across
parties to make a success and | 0:20:49 | 0:20:53 | |
deliver a smooth exit from the
European Union. Or it is worried | 0:20:53 | 0:20:57 | |
about defeat because there could be
enough Conservative rebels that they | 0:20:57 | 0:21:01 | |
might actually lose the vote. You
say there will be time and it will | 0:21:01 | 0:21:05 | |
be meaningful, but if the deal goes
to the wire, we are talking about | 0:21:05 | 0:21:10 | |
the last moment which David Davis
has discussed, the vote could happen | 0:21:10 | 0:21:13 | |
afterwards, could it not? Everyone
wants to get an agreement before the | 0:21:13 | 0:21:19 | |
deadline. But we have to bear in
mind that he meaningful vote took | 0:21:19 | 0:21:24 | |
place in the referendum and when MPs
decided to invoke Article 50. Once | 0:21:24 | 0:21:30 | |
we did that, the question is we get
another vote on the deal, but if we | 0:21:30 | 0:21:35 | |
reject that deal we leave under
Article 50 without an agreement. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:39 | |
There were lots of things not on the
ballot paper and that were not part | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
of the vote in Article 50, for
example the market, the customs | 0:21:42 | 0:21:49 | |
union, should we be a member of all
these various agencies? The aviation | 0:21:49 | 0:21:59 | |
situation, the fishery system. If
Parliament cannot deal with all of | 0:21:59 | 0:22:06 | |
these, what on earth is the point of
having Parliament there at all? | 0:22:06 | 0:22:09 | |
Because you want to stuff it, you
want to thwart the decision that was | 0:22:09 | 0:22:13 | |
taken at the time of the referendum
and enacted by Article 50 which the | 0:22:13 | 0:22:18 | |
Labour Party voted for. There is no
static, democratic snapshot. The | 0:22:18 | 0:22:25 | |
situation is evolving all the time.
Yes, I am personally very sceptical | 0:22:25 | 0:22:31 | |
about Brexit, but in the House of
Commons there may be a consensus | 0:22:31 | 0:22:35 | |
which says maybe we need to stay in
the single market, maybe we want a | 0:22:35 | 0:22:39 | |
proper transition more than the deep
deal that the government are doing. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:44 | |
How can Parliament secure that if
the deal is already done and dusted? | 0:22:44 | 0:22:48 | |
That is the point. You campaign so
hard to give Parliament sovereignty | 0:22:48 | 0:22:53 | |
in this case, but it will not have
any meaning. You just said yourself | 0:22:53 | 0:22:57 | |
in terms of the deal it could well
be a take it or leave it. That is | 0:22:57 | 0:23:02 | |
the way Article 50 works. So it is a
sham. This offer from David Davis is | 0:23:02 | 0:23:09 | |
not a meaningful vote. Once you
invoke Article 50, you say you are | 0:23:09 | 0:23:16 | |
leaving the European Union and that
is what will take place on March the | 0:23:16 | 0:23:19 | |
20 night. We know the Prime Minister
has probably had some legal advice | 0:23:19 | 0:23:24 | |
because she is refusing to say if
she has had legal advice and the | 0:23:24 | 0:23:29 | |
government policy is that we leave
on March the 20 night in 2019, but | 0:23:29 | 0:23:33 | |
the government is backed into a
corner, the clock has ticked down, | 0:23:33 | 0:23:37 | |
we have not got a good deal and
Parliament might have to revoke | 0:23:37 | 0:23:41 | |
Article 50. It is far better if we
get into a situation where | 0:23:41 | 0:23:46 | |
Parliament is taken along and not
treated as an afterthought. That is | 0:23:46 | 0:23:51 | |
revealing. At the heart of it you
want to use amendments to overturn | 0:23:51 | 0:23:57 | |
it, to block it from going along? I
want to ensure prosperity and jobs | 0:23:57 | 0:24:04 | |
for this country rather than take an
ideological view that somehow going | 0:24:04 | 0:24:07 | |
over a cliff edge into a hard Brexit
is great for Britain. We all want to | 0:24:07 | 0:24:13 | |
ensure jobs and prosperity and the
way to do that is by working | 0:24:13 | 0:24:16 | |
together across parties to deliver a
successful end result. If that is | 0:24:16 | 0:24:21 | |
the case, let's do it in Parliament
before the treaty is signed, surely | 0:24:21 | 0:24:25 | |
that is the most grown-up and
sensitive way to do it. Let's talk | 0:24:25 | 0:24:30 | |
about working cross party because
your amendments do not have Tory | 0:24:30 | 0:24:33 | |
support apart from MPs like Dominic
Grieve, so they will not go | 0:24:33 | 0:24:38 | |
anywhere, will they? We are joined
up with Ken Clarke and in the | 0:24:38 | 0:24:46 | |
Florence speech, where Theresa May
said she wanted a transitional | 0:24:46 | 0:24:50 | |
arrangement, we want to put that
into the bill. And how much support | 0:24:50 | 0:24:55 | |
has Theresa May got from other MPs?
Those votes will come on days six | 0:24:55 | 0:25:01 | |
and seven and eight, so we are only
at the foothills of this particular | 0:25:01 | 0:25:05 | |
bill's committee states so far. But
you need remain Tories on side | 0:25:05 | 0:25:10 | |
otherwise your amendments do not go
anywhere. True. How much talking is | 0:25:10 | 0:25:16 | |
going on? Lots of discussion is
going on across all parties. I have | 0:25:16 | 0:25:21 | |
a very strong opinion about the
dangers of Brexit and others are | 0:25:21 | 0:25:24 | |
saying they want Brexit do happen in
a gentle way with the transition. I | 0:25:24 | 0:25:28 | |
will get the best possible outcome I
can do and work with colleagues to | 0:25:28 | 0:25:32 | |
do that. But if we stick to
ideological, party political | 0:25:32 | 0:25:37 | |
tramlines, we will not do much right
for the public. Is that what Bill | 0:25:37 | 0:25:42 | |
Cash is doing when he describes them
as Tory collaborators when they join | 0:25:42 | 0:25:49 | |
the Labour Party? I urge my
colleagues not to vote against the | 0:25:49 | 0:25:53 | |
government, but I recognise they
have strong views on these issues. | 0:25:53 | 0:25:57 | |
As Dominic Grieve said we need to
work to scrutinise this bill | 0:25:57 | 0:26:01 | |
carefully and make sure nothing goes
through which would jeopardise | 0:26:01 | 0:26:05 | |
implementation of the result of the
referendum. Would they be | 0:26:05 | 0:26:09 | |
collaborators if they joined forces
with the turncoat Labour Party? I | 0:26:09 | 0:26:13 | |
would not describe them like that,
but I would urge them not to do | 0:26:13 | 0:26:17 | |
anything which would undermine
respect for the 17.5 million votes | 0:26:17 | 0:26:20 | |
in this country. Why was it
important for Theresa May to put the | 0:26:20 | 0:26:25 | |
date in the bill? Does it not tied
the government's and by having a | 0:26:25 | 0:26:29 | |
hard buffer their in March? The
country has made its decision. MPs | 0:26:29 | 0:26:36 | |
ratify that when they invoked
Article 50, that means we are | 0:26:36 | 0:26:40 | |
leaving on the 29th of March. It
makes sense to include that date in | 0:26:40 | 0:26:44 | |
the bill. It is the stupidity of
boxing ourselves into a poor | 0:26:44 | 0:26:49 | |
negotiating hand so that the other
side of the negotiating table can | 0:26:49 | 0:26:54 | |
wait for the clock to come down and
we get more and more desperate for a | 0:26:54 | 0:26:58 | |
deal as time goes by. There was
nothing on the ballot paper about | 0:26:58 | 0:27:02 | |
the 29th of March, 2019. All of this
should be for Parliament to decide. | 0:27:02 | 0:27:09 | |
Do not be so rigid, getting the best
deal is what we want. I can agree on | 0:27:09 | 0:27:17 | |
the need for an implementation
period. Right across the House of | 0:27:17 | 0:27:20 | |
Commons we agree on that. That will
enable us to prepare for Brexit. | 0:27:20 | 0:27:28 | |
Which is why some of the amendments
today are really crucial. Do not | 0:27:28 | 0:27:32 | |
forget the Prime Minister herself
said in the Florence speech that win | 0:27:32 | 0:27:36 | |
might need the ECJ to continue in
order to get existing institutions | 0:27:36 | 0:27:41 | |
in the transition. The bill as it
stands stops all of that and throws | 0:27:41 | 0:27:45 | |
it out on exit today, so the bill is
not consistent with the | 0:27:45 | 0:27:50 | |
implementation position that even
the Prime Minister has talked about. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:54 | |
How likely is no deal scenario now?
We have got this hard buffer of a | 0:27:54 | 0:28:00 | |
date which the government would like
to put on the bill and the clock is | 0:28:00 | 0:28:04 | |
ticking. Do you think no deal is now
the more likely option? No, I remain | 0:28:04 | 0:28:10 | |
optimistic we will get a deal. One
question is the mechanics of the | 0:28:10 | 0:28:14 | |
exit deal and the second is the
trade agreement. Delivering the | 0:28:14 | 0:28:18 | |
trade agreement will be more
difficult in the time available, but | 0:28:18 | 0:28:22 | |
it is in the interests of both sides
that we do that and I remain | 0:28:22 | 0:28:26 | |
optimistic we can do both. As a
doctor and working in the NHS, how | 0:28:26 | 0:28:31 | |
important is it for you to get that
deal? You want to remain. I sit here | 0:28:31 | 0:28:39 | |
aghast and known as the majority of
the public do I suspect. If I was | 0:28:39 | 0:28:43 | |
offering you a major operation and
told you nothing about it until your | 0:28:43 | 0:28:47 | |
guts were spilling out and you are
on the table and told you nothing | 0:28:47 | 0:28:52 | |
about the side-effects and what it
would cost and what it would mean | 0:28:52 | 0:28:55 | |
further down the line and then you
have little choice, you would strike | 0:28:55 | 0:29:00 | |
me off and refer me to the General
Medical Council. There are real | 0:29:00 | 0:29:05 | |
people frightened about this, real
people leaving this country and real | 0:29:05 | 0:29:08 | |
people suffering and yet we are
playing party politics. For me in | 0:29:08 | 0:29:14 | |
the NHS, the NHS relies on overseas
people not just for service | 0:29:14 | 0:29:17 | |
delivery, but for innovation and yet
we are entering this process, if I | 0:29:17 | 0:29:27 | |
can finish, I understand people who
want to leave because they were told | 0:29:27 | 0:29:34 | |
more lives than a used car salesman.
Did the other side not tell lies? | 0:29:34 | 0:29:39 | |
They did not tell lies. Project fear
was considered lies. It was not, but | 0:29:39 | 0:29:48 | |
they were too arrogant and two
expert to say it does not work. Let | 0:29:48 | 0:29:54 | |
Theresa Villiers comeback in terms
of reassuring people. You talk about | 0:29:54 | 0:29:58 | |
the majority of people. There is no
evidence to say the majority of | 0:29:58 | 0:30:02 | |
people are worried. The polls are
shifting. We do not have that | 0:30:02 | 0:30:07 | |
evidence. Reassure her if she thinks
people are literally terrified about | 0:30:07 | 0:30:10 | |
what is happening. This is a period
of uncertainty and one of the | 0:30:10 | 0:30:15 | |
reasons we need this withdrawal bill
to go through is to ensure we have | 0:30:15 | 0:30:20 | |
as much certainty as possible for
businesses and individuals. I take | 0:30:20 | 0:30:25 | |
issue with you in terms of the
reasons why people voted to leave. | 0:30:25 | 0:30:29 | |
It is legitimate to say that we
should take back control of making | 0:30:29 | 0:30:34 | |
our own laws in our own Parliament.
That is why people voted to leave | 0:30:34 | 0:30:38 | |
the European Union. We will have to
leave it there. Briefly, this | 0:30:38 | 0:30:45 | |
statutory instrument Dominic Grieve
topped the back that he says is in | 0:30:45 | 0:30:48 | |
the bill which would allow the
government to extend the data beyond | 0:30:48 | 0:30:52 | |
the 29th of March, does that worry
you? does that worry you? I have not | 0:30:52 | 0:30:56 | |
seen the details, I think it was
only... That is the detail, that | 0:30:56 | 0:31:00 | |
they can extend the date by using a
statutory instrument, it could go | 0:31:00 | 0:31:06 | |
further into the future, are you
worried? It would be good to have an | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
exit date, if there is flexibility
that the government also puts | 0:31:09 | 0:31:13 | |
forward, I will certainly consider
that carefully, it is not worry me, | 0:31:13 | 0:31:17 | |
from what you have told me about it. | 0:31:17 | 0:31:20 | |
Chance of Philip Hammond is not
short of advice, including from some | 0:31:28 | 0:31:32 | |
within his own party, believe
supporting MP Jake Jacob Reece Mark | 0:31:32 | 0:31:37 | |
has today been delivering his own
budget for Brexit. | 0:31:37 | 0:31:45 | |
The leave supporting MP
Jacob Rees Mogg has this morning | 0:31:45 | 0:31:48 | |
been delivering his own
"budget for Brexit". | 0:31:48 | 0:31:49 | |
He predicts there will be
a £135 billion windfall | 0:31:49 | 0:31:52 | |
to the Treasury between 2020-2025
as the financial benefits | 0:31:52 | 0:31:54 | |
from leaving the EU are felt. | 0:31:54 | 0:31:55 | |
We'll speak to him in a moment,
but first let's have | 0:31:55 | 0:31:58 | |
a listen to the speech. | 0:31:58 | 0:31:59 | |
The key to economic success and the
ability to pay for public services | 0:31:59 | 0:32:01 | |
is our ability to exercise economic
freedom and simultaneously minimise | 0:32:01 | 0:32:05 | |
protectionism. The results of these
ideas will be an intensification of | 0:32:05 | 0:32:09 | |
competition in the UK economy which
will improve the UK's productive | 0:32:09 | 0:32:13 | |
performance. I confidently believe
therefore that over the medium-term, | 0:32:13 | 0:32:20 | |
the fiscal prospects are much
better, than those that will be | 0:32:20 | 0:32:23 | |
revealed to you by the Obie's
short-term projections. It does it | 0:32:23 | 0:32:29 | |
reputable, but on the basis of full
assumptions, supplied to it by the | 0:32:29 | 0:32:33 | |
Treasury. I apologise for the
picture quality, we were hoping to | 0:32:33 | 0:32:42 | |
speak with him directly, but I think
there are technical issues which | 0:32:42 | 0:32:46 | |
prevent us from doing so, so
instead... | 0:32:46 | 0:32:51 | |
We like to introduce
you to new words on this show, | 0:32:51 | 0:32:54 | |
think of us as a political
version of Ccountdown, but | 0:32:54 | 0:32:56 | |
without dictionary corner
or the loyal fanbase. | 0:32:56 | 0:32:58 | |
Some recently coined terms include
"fake news", "gig economy", | 0:32:58 | 0:33:00 | |
or how about "gender fluid"? | 0:33:00 | 0:33:01 | |
Well, the philosopher
Roger Scruton has brought | 0:33:01 | 0:33:03 | |
one to our attention,
it's "oikophobes". | 0:33:03 | 0:33:11 | |
Oikophobes, he says,
"define their goals and ideals | 0:33:11 | 0:33:13 | |
against some cherished form
of membership against anything that | 0:33:13 | 0:33:15 | |
makes a claim, however
justified, on their loyalty". | 0:33:15 | 0:33:25 | |
Well, Roger Scruton talks
about "oikohphobia" in his new book, | 0:33:25 | 0:33:27 | |
it's called Where We Are,
The State of Britain Now, | 0:33:27 | 0:33:30 | |
and he joins us now. | 0:33:30 | 0:33:36 | |
You refer to this term oikohphobia
but is a deep cynicism needed to | 0:33:36 | 0:33:42 | |
make institutions work for everyone?
Certain measure of cynicism is | 0:33:42 | 0:33:46 | |
always a good thing, but a deep in a
system, which bases its self | 0:33:46 | 0:33:51 | |
entirely on mediation, that is not a
very helpful thing to the thing that | 0:33:51 | 0:33:54 | |
it repudiates. | 0:33:54 | 0:33:56 | |
We all of us in my view have a need
to belong, we all define belonging | 0:33:56 | 0:34:01 | |
in slightly different ways but there
are certain fundamental things that | 0:34:01 | 0:34:05 | |
we must share. A place, which is
ours, whether or not we agree about | 0:34:05 | 0:34:10 | |
how it should be governed, this is
the place we are talking about, a | 0:34:10 | 0:34:15 | |
system of law, political process
which is ours. In defining that | 0:34:15 | 0:34:19 | |
term, I was really trying to come to
terms with the growing current of | 0:34:19 | 0:34:24 | |
rejection that runs especially
through the intellectual world, in | 0:34:24 | 0:34:29 | |
which people try to define
themselves not in terms of where | 0:34:29 | 0:34:32 | |
they belong but in terms of what
they would not belong to if they | 0:34:32 | 0:34:37 | |
were not rejecting it! Where do you
fit in, in this, are you an | 0:34:37 | 0:34:46 | |
oikohphobe you are fundamentally
correct, we all have a fundamental | 0:34:46 | 0:34:51 | |
need to belong to a group. All have
groups, there is a great move at the | 0:34:51 | 0:34:55 | |
moment not to belong to something,
we have not to belong to a gender at | 0:34:55 | 0:35:00 | |
the moment, and the confusion that
is causing. What about the belief of | 0:35:00 | 0:35:04 | |
being part of the country, the land.
Absolutely, as a foreigner, I feel I | 0:35:04 | 0:35:10 | |
belong to this country, this country
is very dear to me, gave me and my | 0:35:10 | 0:35:14 | |
family a home and work and gave me
my future and I belong to the United | 0:35:14 | 0:35:20 | |
Kingdom, does not mean that when I
go abroad to where I actually come | 0:35:20 | 0:35:23 | |
from I do not feel some loyalty, but
I belong here. The rejection of | 0:35:23 | 0:35:28 | |
belonging is a perverse and
pervasive part of our society, as | 0:35:28 | 0:35:32 | |
you say. You talk about it being
part of the intellectual is... What | 0:35:32 | 0:35:38 | |
do you mean? My colleagues in
universities on the whole, as George | 0:35:38 | 0:35:42 | |
Orwell pointed out a long time ago,
they cannot utter words like | 0:35:42 | 0:35:47 | |
England, Britain and so on without a
certain smear. It is always, we are | 0:35:47 | 0:35:52 | |
not to be identified like that, that
is what our grandparents fought for, | 0:35:52 | 0:35:56 | |
but we are in the business of
establishing our identity completely | 0:35:56 | 0:36:02 | |
apart from all the ordinary forms of
loyalty. Do you agree with that? | 0:36:02 | 0:36:07 | |
Universities were criticised for
negativity towards Brexit, is that a | 0:36:07 | 0:36:13 | |
form of elitism that should be
discouraged? Not at all, | 0:36:13 | 0:36:19 | |
universities were critical of Brexit
because of what people do to | 0:36:19 | 0:36:23 | |
innovation and academic and
universities that is part of it, I | 0:36:23 | 0:36:25 | |
den think it is part of not
belonging to Britain. If one were to | 0:36:25 | 0:36:30 | |
ask. -- I don't think. I'm European,
that is why I feel strongly about | 0:36:30 | 0:36:36 | |
Brexit. I was born on one continent
and I live in another, we are all | 0:36:36 | 0:36:41 | |
from all over the place, very few of
us are one bit, if we check DNA. I | 0:36:41 | 0:36:46 | |
belong here, my loyalties, we have
just celebrated Remembrance Day, I | 0:36:46 | 0:36:50 | |
was not born there, it is not part
of my culture in many ways but I | 0:36:50 | 0:36:54 | |
feel it through me. Do you
sympathise with Roger's point that | 0:36:54 | 0:36:57 | |
there is a smear about Englishness
and England. Yes, if you went to | 0:36:57 | 0:37:05 | |
Scotland, Ireland... Absolutely,
yes, absolutely, again, interesting | 0:37:05 | 0:37:09 | |
point, by being in favour of
Scottish nationalism, someone can | 0:37:09 | 0:37:14 | |
use that to enhance his rejection of
England, that is one of the reasons | 0:37:14 | 0:37:19 | |
why we do not find a great
intellectual movement to smear | 0:37:19 | 0:37:22 | |
Scottish nationalism. While we do
find a great movement to smear | 0:37:22 | 0:37:29 | |
Englishness. Do you see the support
of the the EU, the remain | 0:37:29 | 0:37:33 | |
credentials Claire inhabits, do you
see that as being disloyal? No, of | 0:37:33 | 0:37:37 | |
course not, not in itself, best to
say. It is quite possible to be a | 0:37:37 | 0:37:47 | |
committed citizen of one country and
also have wider loyalty to other | 0:37:47 | 0:37:51 | |
things. I am very much a British
patriot, also, an English patriot, | 0:37:51 | 0:37:57 | |
and I am also European. But I also
think that in the end, one's basic | 0:37:57 | 0:38:05 | |
political identity is wrapped up
with the people who govern you. | 0:38:05 | 0:38:08 | |
Where are we governed from, by whom?
That is why I am in favour of Brexit | 0:38:08 | 0:38:14 | |
because I am in favour of national
sovereignty. But it does not stop me | 0:38:14 | 0:38:18 | |
being European or thinking that I
have a wider loyalty to the | 0:38:18 | 0:38:23 | |
continent and the civilisation that
has established. I agree with you | 0:38:23 | 0:38:26 | |
with most of what you said except
for the last bit. I know that you | 0:38:26 | 0:38:29 | |
wouldn't. Quirkiness, that the
English do not promote themselves, I | 0:38:29 | 0:38:34 | |
love that, the English bemoan
themselves. You criticise -- you | 0:38:34 | 0:38:41 | |
criticise Jeremy Corbyn as being a
radical oikohphobe but you seem to | 0:38:41 | 0:38:44 | |
agree with him on globalisation, for
instance, one of the issues you | 0:38:44 | 0:38:48 | |
highlight is damaging the nation.
Yes, that is true, but he would join | 0:38:48 | 0:38:54 | |
in this fundamentally anti-English
sentiment, I think. Why would he do | 0:38:54 | 0:38:58 | |
that? He believes that ours is a
class society, which has to be | 0:38:58 | 0:39:03 | |
turned upside down, we have two
repudiates all kinds of institutions | 0:39:03 | 0:39:08 | |
and ways of doing things for the
sake of a more egalitarian border, | 0:39:08 | 0:39:14 | |
which is not defined. If
institutions are not working for | 0:39:14 | 0:39:17 | |
large portions of society, as Jeremy
Corbyn and Theresa May have said, | 0:39:17 | 0:39:21 | |
isn't it right that they are
challenged? Up to a point, yes, but | 0:39:21 | 0:39:26 | |
it depends upon which institutions,
not the political process under the | 0:39:26 | 0:39:30 | |
common law, that we have inherited
about which Jeremy Corbyn has almost | 0:39:30 | 0:39:34 | |
nothing to say. Do you think it is
right to challenge in the tuition is | 0:39:34 | 0:39:38 | |
to lead to a more egalitarian
society? Who could possibly disagree | 0:39:38 | 0:39:42 | |
with that, of course I do, but what
institutions? The NHS is the most | 0:39:42 | 0:39:48 | |
egalitarian in the juice and we have
in this country, it is classless. -- | 0:39:48 | 0:39:53 | |
institution. If we put more money
into education we would then have... | 0:39:53 | 0:39:58 | |
I disagree, if we put less money
into it, it would get much better. | 0:39:58 | 0:40:03 | |
Tell that to the teachers. Yes, I
know, but at the moment, two | 0:40:03 | 0:40:09 | |
bureaucrats for every teacher in the
state education system, that money | 0:40:09 | 0:40:13 | |
is being squandered partly because
people are not taking seriously the | 0:40:13 | 0:40:17 | |
crucial encounter, that between the
teacher and the pupil. I disagree, | 0:40:17 | 0:40:21 | |
when you have schools having to ask
parents for substitute Harry on | 0:40:21 | 0:40:25 | |
teaching, when teachers are taking
in equipment in order to teach, and | 0:40:25 | 0:40:30 | |
where you know that bureaucracy is
management, you need to run an | 0:40:30 | 0:40:35 | |
organisation, you cannot run it on a
wing and a prayer. I don't see why | 0:40:35 | 0:40:39 | |
not, you see, if we privatise the
entire educational system, people | 0:40:39 | 0:40:44 | |
all over the country would be taking
these initiatives and running things | 0:40:44 | 0:40:47 | |
on a wing and a prayer. I have
believed that all my life. Before | 0:40:47 | 0:40:52 | |
you go, talking about the European
Union, you are in favour of leaving | 0:40:52 | 0:40:56 | |
it, do you access that it could lead
to worse consequences, of | 0:40:56 | 0:41:00 | |
globalisation, bargain bucket
economy, race to the bottom in | 0:41:00 | 0:41:04 | |
regulation, a Singapore style
economy, very successful however in | 0:41:04 | 0:41:09 | |
Singapore but which may not work
here? Anything might happen, none of | 0:41:09 | 0:41:16 | |
us are a profits, and I am even less
of a profit than Jeremy Corbyn | 0:41:16 | 0:41:20 | |
because I have no power, he can
influence things. But it has ever | 0:41:20 | 0:41:25 | |
been so, all political decisions are
made largely in a void. And all you | 0:41:25 | 0:41:31 | |
have to rely upon is your own sense
of the past and obligations and | 0:41:31 | 0:41:34 | |
loyalties. -- none of us are
prophets. That is what should take | 0:41:34 | 0:41:37 | |
us forward. Thank you very much. | 0:41:37 | 0:41:41 | |
Is it right for patients to be
prevented from having | 0:41:46 | 0:41:49 | |
certain types of treatment | 0:41:49 | 0:41:51 | |
unless they quit
smoking or lose weight? | 0:41:51 | 0:41:53 | |
Well, health trusts argue this
is often the best way to improve | 0:41:53 | 0:41:56 | |
results of non-emergency operations,
but critics claim it's also a way | 0:41:56 | 0:42:00 | |
of dealing with the pressure on NHS
budgets in England and Wales | 0:42:00 | 0:42:03 | |
by rationing care. | 0:42:03 | 0:42:04 | |
Emma Vardy's been to Hertfordshire | 0:42:04 | 0:42:05 | |
where some new rules
have caused controversy. | 0:42:05 | 0:42:08 | |
Here, some NHS patients
are given an ultimatum. | 0:42:08 | 0:42:10 | |
Under new rules, some smokers
will only be referred | 0:42:10 | 0:42:14 | |
for certain operations
if they quit smoking. | 0:42:14 | 0:42:16 | |
Those who are obese may be
restricted from having non-urgent | 0:42:16 | 0:42:18 | |
surgery until they lose weight. | 0:42:18 | 0:42:25 | |
Clinical commissioning groups,
these are the GP-led organisations | 0:42:25 | 0:42:27 | |
that plan local care, | 0:42:27 | 0:42:30 | |
they are facing tough
decisions this year about how | 0:42:30 | 0:42:33 | |
to balance their budgets. | 0:42:33 | 0:42:38 | |
The Hertfordshire case is not
a one-off, the majority | 0:42:38 | 0:42:40 | |
of CCGs are having
to consider different ways | 0:42:40 | 0:42:42 | |
to restrict access to patient care
in order to balance budgets. | 0:42:42 | 0:42:45 | |
I think we can expect to see more
and more of these cases of CCGs | 0:42:45 | 0:42:48 | |
taking tough decisions about how
to meet financial targets. | 0:42:48 | 0:42:51 | |
The NHS is under huge financial
pressure | 0:42:51 | 0:42:54 | |
because the demand for care is going
up much faster than funding. | 0:42:54 | 0:42:58 | |
It means like Hertfordshire, | 0:42:58 | 0:43:00 | |
many areas are taking more
stringent decisions, | 0:43:00 | 0:43:01 | |
but is that fair? | 0:43:01 | 0:43:06 | |
I don't think it should be
a blank "we cannot treat | 0:43:06 | 0:43:09 | |
you because you smoke." | 0:43:09 | 0:43:10 | |
I think they should have to say,
you need this, but we want to see | 0:43:10 | 0:43:14 | |
that you are stopping smoking
in the meantime. | 0:43:14 | 0:43:16 | |
Never smoked in my life,
and I do feel that it should be | 0:43:16 | 0:43:19 | |
considered absolutely, yes. | 0:43:19 | 0:43:21 | |
I believe, | 0:43:21 | 0:43:31 | |
if you've been paying into
a national health all your life... | 0:43:34 | 0:43:37 | |
Then you should get the treatment. | 0:43:37 | 0:43:38 | |
The Royal College of surgeons has
become increasingly concerned | 0:43:38 | 0:43:40 | |
about the rationing of surgery
in the NHS. | 0:43:40 | 0:43:42 | |
It commissioned a report which last
year showed that now nearly one | 0:43:42 | 0:43:45 | |
third of clinical commissioning
groups in England and one health | 0:43:45 | 0:43:47 | |
board in Wales now have policies
which require patients either | 0:43:47 | 0:43:50 | |
to lose weight or stop smoking | 0:43:50 | 0:43:51 | |
before they can be referred
for routine surgery. | 0:43:51 | 0:43:54 | |
It fears some patients are becoming
soft targets for NHS savings. | 0:43:54 | 0:43:57 | |
The Royal College of GPs is also
worried, saying trying | 0:43:57 | 0:43:59 | |
to force patients to change
will not always work. | 0:43:59 | 0:44:04 | |
Everybody knows smoking is bad
for us, drinking excessively is bad | 0:44:04 | 0:44:07 | |
for we also all know that eating too
much red meat is bad for us | 0:44:07 | 0:44:10 | |
and living sedentary lifestyles. | 0:44:10 | 0:44:12 | |
But it doesn't mean that we all
live by those rules, | 0:44:12 | 0:44:14 | |
and so there is a difference
between encouraging people | 0:44:14 | 0:44:16 | |
to make the right choices,
making it easy to live good, | 0:44:16 | 0:44:19 | |
healthy lifestyles, but then also
enforcing rules upon them | 0:44:19 | 0:44:21 | |
that they were not expecting
and in a situation where | 0:44:21 | 0:44:24 | |
they haven't got much control. | 0:44:24 | 0:44:25 | |
That is tough. | 0:44:25 | 0:44:26 | |
Hertfordshire clinical commissioning
group says its policies | 0:44:26 | 0:44:29 | |
are not about saving money,
but to improve patient safety | 0:44:29 | 0:44:31 | |
during nonurgent surgery. | 0:44:31 | 0:44:32 | |
Some argue that these strategies | 0:44:32 | 0:44:34 | |
are destroying the fundamental
principles of our NHS. | 0:44:34 | 0:44:37 | |
We're joined now
by Alastair Dickson. | 0:44:42 | 0:44:44 | |
He's a GP and former clinical health
adviser to Parliament. | 0:44:44 | 0:44:51 | |
Welcome to the programme. Just
before I come to you, the CCT in | 0:44:51 | 0:44:59 | |
Hertfordshire says it is not about
saving money and it is not about | 0:44:59 | 0:45:02 | |
rationing. If the surgery outweighs
the outcome, the patient will have | 0:45:02 | 0:45:09 | |
the surgery. You have to separate
obesity and smoking. Smoking is a | 0:45:09 | 0:45:20 | |
childhood disease. I was a smoker. I
used to pick up my Father's dog ends | 0:45:20 | 0:45:26 | |
when I was an eight-year-old and it
took me 40 years to finally stop. | 0:45:26 | 0:45:31 | |
Restricting smokers and where it is
very dubious whether the risk | 0:45:31 | 0:45:37 | |
outweighs the benefits I think is
wrong. If someone is asked to give | 0:45:37 | 0:45:42 | |
up smoking and they give up smoking
and it will impact positively the | 0:45:42 | 0:45:46 | |
outcome, is that not the right thing
to do? Fantastic. But as an ex | 0:45:46 | 0:45:52 | |
smoker myself it took me the best
part of 40 years to give up smoking. | 0:45:52 | 0:45:56 | |
If it was that simple, we would have
all stopped a long time ago. | 0:45:56 | 0:46:04 | |
Alistair, Hertfordshire says that
before being referred to surgery you | 0:46:04 | 0:46:07 | |
will be referred to Weight Watchers
and slimming world. Is that a good | 0:46:07 | 0:46:11 | |
use of NHS money? It is in the most
clinically appropriate | 0:46:11 | 0:46:16 | |
circumstances. We all know that as
the film showed we should do things | 0:46:16 | 0:46:20 | |
to build up our own health and look
after ourselves. That should be in | 0:46:20 | 0:46:25 | |
the overall promotion anyway. If you
are talking about everybody and not | 0:46:25 | 0:46:29 | |
targeting, then one cannot question
it. But if you are looking at | 0:46:29 | 0:46:35 | |
someone who is struggling and they
are getting problems with arthritis | 0:46:35 | 0:46:39 | |
in the knees and their hips, we know
from guidelines that this should be | 0:46:39 | 0:46:44 | |
part of a package of care. It should
not be just thrown in at the end. | 0:46:44 | 0:46:50 | |
What we should be doing is working
proactively to do this. When we are | 0:46:50 | 0:46:55 | |
looking at surgery we should be
saying, look, it is important for | 0:46:55 | 0:47:00 | |
you to lose weight. We know you will
have a better chance with your knees | 0:47:00 | 0:47:05 | |
particularly of actually having a
safe and fulfilling operation with | 0:47:05 | 0:47:08 | |
good outcomes afterwards with
minimising failure if you can get | 0:47:08 | 0:47:13 | |
your weight down. Hips it is not so
obvious for. Is there not also an | 0:47:13 | 0:47:19 | |
aspect of saving money. If you can
defer these operators, it will | 0:47:19 | 0:47:24 | |
improve the outcome, but it saves
money and it is a form of rationing. | 0:47:24 | 0:47:28 | |
Everything is a form of rationing if
looked at in the right manner. But I | 0:47:28 | 0:47:32 | |
agree, it could be a way of saving
money, but I am not interested in | 0:47:32 | 0:47:37 | |
saving money, I am interested in
patient outcomes. If we look at the | 0:47:37 | 0:47:43 | |
triage for primary care developed in
the North East and other parts of | 0:47:43 | 0:47:46 | |
the UK, we have shown that 80% or
more of people who were referred for | 0:47:46 | 0:47:52 | |
surgery did not need surgery and
benefited from things which were | 0:47:52 | 0:47:56 | |
better, including weight loss. When
you asked them, they said they did | 0:47:56 | 0:48:01 | |
not want surgery. Alistair is right
around obesity and we have a | 0:48:01 | 0:48:05 | |
population disaster going on and we
need to tackle it at individual and | 0:48:05 | 0:48:10 | |
population level. That could result
in a lot of people being denied | 0:48:10 | 0:48:13 | |
treatment. What Alistair is saying
is right. Your risk of dying if you | 0:48:13 | 0:48:20 | |
have a BMI of 37-42 is quite high,
therefore a routine operation you | 0:48:20 | 0:48:26 | |
are better off postponing it and
going to evidence -based treatment | 0:48:26 | 0:48:29 | |
and going to Weight Watchers,
absolutely 100%. My issue is with | 0:48:29 | 0:48:36 | |
smokers. Where do you end with
lifestyle? If I go skiing in | 0:48:36 | 0:48:42 | |
January, should I be denied
treatment because it is a dangerous | 0:48:42 | 0:48:46 | |
activity. All of these things become
insidiously put in. You are a GP and | 0:48:46 | 0:48:51 | |
I trust you to make the right
decision, but as time goes on and | 0:48:51 | 0:49:17 | |
Is it more important than you can
show that they have low carbon | 0:49:53 | 0:49:57 | |
monoxide in their blood, on the day
of the operation, when it does | 0:49:57 | 0:50:03 | |
require you to reduce significantly
the amount of cigarettes you are | 0:50:03 | 0:50:08 | |
taking in 448 hours before the
operation. Doctors make decisions on | 0:50:08 | 0:50:13 | |
whether to refer people to surgery
every day. Doctors make those | 0:50:13 | 0:50:19 | |
decisions. -- for 48 hours. Doctors
have been making assessments about | 0:50:19 | 0:50:25 | |
weight and lifestyle forever. Up we
now have referral management. | 0:50:25 | 0:50:31 | |
Doctors make that decision. There is
an additional barrier, that will | 0:50:31 | 0:50:36 | |
increasingly be managers who then
decide, whether or not that person | 0:50:36 | 0:50:40 | |
will go on to the operation. I
disagree, actually, we are looking | 0:50:40 | 0:50:45 | |
at the need for specialist teams. | 0:50:45 | 0:50:47 | |
I as a GP will be referring you to
surgery, but often you need a | 0:50:58 | 0:51:03 | |
specialist team. Will there be a
case of deserving and non-deserving | 0:51:03 | 0:51:06 | |
patients. There has to be a clinical
need for patience and they will be | 0:51:06 | 0:51:12 | |
patients who are winners and losers
in the system. The Oregon experiment | 0:51:12 | 0:51:16 | |
clearly showed that in the 1990s.
There will be deserving and | 0:51:16 | 0:51:22 | |
non-deserving and whilst I think
there are some rationing decisions | 0:51:22 | 0:51:24 | |
that have to be made on clinical
grounds, it is wrong to make these | 0:51:24 | 0:51:30 | |
decisions purely on lifestyle. | 0:51:30 | 0:51:33 | |
The cabinet has been meeting this
morning for the first | 0:51:33 | 0:51:35 | |
time in a few weeks,
and rather a lot has happened | 0:51:35 | 0:51:38 | |
since they last got together. | 0:51:38 | 0:51:39 | |
Not only have two cabinet ministers, | 0:51:39 | 0:51:41 | |
Michael Fallon and Priti Patel,
been forced to leave, | 0:51:41 | 0:51:43 | |
but there have been fresh signs that
not everyone left behind is exactly | 0:51:43 | 0:51:46 | |
singing from the same hymn sheet. | 0:51:46 | 0:51:52 | |
Oh, to be a fly on the wall. | 0:51:52 | 0:51:53 | |
So are the tensions in cabinet any
worse than this lot? | 0:51:53 | 0:51:56 | |
# I stay out too late... | 0:51:56 | 0:51:59 | |
Sir Geoffrey Howe has
announced his resignation | 0:51:59 | 0:52:00 | |
from the government. | 0:52:00 | 0:52:03 | |
How do you feel this evening? | 0:52:03 | 0:52:05 | |
Fine, how are you? | 0:52:05 | 0:52:09 | |
# But I can't make him stay,
at least that's what people say. | 0:52:09 | 0:52:16 | |
If he wished to change his
Chancellor, it was surely right that | 0:52:16 | 0:52:19 | |
I should leave the Cabinet. | 0:52:19 | 0:52:21 | |
# Can't stop, won't
stop moving, it's like | 0:52:21 | 0:52:23 | |
# I've got this music in my mind
saying it's going to be all right. | 0:52:23 | 0:52:31 | |
Here, Gordon. | 0:52:31 | 0:52:33 | |
It is not often the
Chancellor gets something. | 0:52:33 | 0:52:37 | |
At least I don't have
to worry about her | 0:52:37 | 0:52:39 | |
running off with
the bloke next door. | 0:52:39 | 0:52:42 | |
# Shake it all, shake it all... | 0:52:42 | 0:52:47 | |
The whole point is we had a great
agreement and the cabinet works very | 0:52:47 | 0:52:50 | |
well together. | 0:52:50 | 0:52:54 | |
If you think there is a time to go,
there is a time to go | 0:52:54 | 0:52:57 | |
and I want a break. | 0:52:57 | 0:52:58 | |
Is the coalition still working? | 0:52:58 | 0:53:01 | |
# Shake it all, shake it all #. | 0:53:01 | 0:53:06 | |
Well, to discuss how to restore
cabinet unity we're joined now | 0:53:06 | 0:53:09 | |
by Jonny Gifford, he's a specialist
in mediation from the | 0:53:09 | 0:53:11 | |
Chartered Institute
of Professional Development. | 0:53:11 | 0:53:13 | |
And by someone who sat
in John Major's cabinet, | 0:53:13 | 0:53:15 | |
which wasn't always exactly united,
the former minister David Mellor. | 0:53:15 | 0:53:22 | |
Welcome to both of you. David
Mellor, none of us are in the | 0:53:22 | 0:53:28 | |
Cabinet and none of us were dead
this morning when they met and they | 0:53:28 | 0:53:31 | |
are divided on a number of issues,
but that is not unusual. How would | 0:53:31 | 0:53:35 | |
you assess the state of Theresa
May's government? I think appalling. | 0:53:35 | 0:53:40 | |
I have been in politics for 50 years
and have been actively involved in | 0:53:40 | 0:53:46 | |
it for most of that time and have
never been so depressed about the | 0:53:46 | 0:53:50 | |
state of it. There is grandeur when
candidates get angry with people in | 0:53:50 | 0:53:56 | |
cabinets. These people are pygmies.
But the fallout is the same. If we | 0:53:56 | 0:54:04 | |
look back at previous governments,
you mentioned Margaret thatcher and | 0:54:04 | 0:54:07 | |
Michael Heseltine, there were sleaze
allegations against politicians and | 0:54:07 | 0:54:16 | |
back to basics was ridiculed. Is it
really any worse? It is worse today | 0:54:16 | 0:54:21 | |
because lots of good work was being
done by John Major. He had two good | 0:54:21 | 0:54:27 | |
chancellors. Norman Lamont was
unfortunate with the ERM and the | 0:54:27 | 0:54:31 | |
exchange rate mechanism and was
brought down by it. Ken Clarke was | 0:54:31 | 0:54:35 | |
an excellent Chancellor and the
British economy was handed over in | 0:54:35 | 0:54:38 | |
good shape to Tony Blair. I think
there was a great deal of common | 0:54:38 | 0:54:43 | |
effort. Whereas this lot cannot help
but squabble. They are not big | 0:54:43 | 0:54:49 | |
beasts and there is no discipline.
Under Mrs Thatcher if you went out | 0:54:49 | 0:54:53 | |
and said what you thought about
things, Bernard Ingham would descend | 0:54:53 | 0:54:57 | |
on you like a tonne of bricks. Even
if you thought she was wrong, you | 0:54:57 | 0:55:01 | |
had to keep your opinion to yourself
as I had to do on a number of | 0:55:01 | 0:55:06 | |
occasions. But this is anarchy,
anything goes. The cat does not have | 0:55:06 | 0:55:11 | |
to be away before the mice connect
to play, the cat can be around and | 0:55:11 | 0:55:15 | |
the mice are not afraid of it.
Imagine you were given the case that | 0:55:15 | 0:55:19 | |
David Miller says exists at the top
of government, what would you do? It | 0:55:19 | 0:55:25 | |
is not an uncommon phenomenon. I am
sorry to hear that. From our own | 0:55:25 | 0:55:30 | |
work we can see that one in four of
UK employees would identify that | 0:55:30 | 0:55:34 | |
they have had some kind of
interpersonal conflict given a 12 | 0:55:34 | 0:55:38 | |
month period and that can involve
any sort of behaviours ranging from | 0:55:38 | 0:55:42 | |
lack of respect due to refusing to
work together or verbal abuse, | 0:55:42 | 0:55:47 | |
shouting, right through to threats
of actual physical abuse which are | 0:55:47 | 0:55:52 | |
much rare but which can still happen
in one in 100 UK workplaces. Have | 0:55:52 | 0:55:58 | |
you had Boris Johnson and Philip
Hammond call you up? Not personally. | 0:55:58 | 0:56:03 | |
How would you bring them together?
David talked about working together, | 0:56:03 | 0:56:09 | |
lack of unity. I think one of the
common things in any kind of | 0:56:09 | 0:56:13 | |
conflict is recognising that there
are interests that prevail over | 0:56:13 | 0:56:19 | |
positions, so getting people to
think about what do they actually | 0:56:19 | 0:56:23 | |
want from a scenario rather than why
I can't work with that person, why I | 0:56:23 | 0:56:27 | |
cannot trust that person. And then
getting them to recognise there are | 0:56:27 | 0:56:32 | |
certain parameters within which we
have got to work. There are some | 0:56:32 | 0:56:36 | |
givens in any workplace relationship
that is going wrong. What you have | 0:56:36 | 0:56:41 | |
to remember, David, is she is
looking after Brexit and Brexit is | 0:56:41 | 0:56:47 | |
an enormous task, is it not that
that is making it difficult? It is | 0:56:47 | 0:56:51 | |
part of it. It is the classic
hospital pass. It is appalling. | 0:56:51 | 0:57:05 | |
Think of our previous Prime Minister
David Cameron chill axing with lots | 0:57:05 | 0:57:09 | |
of money telling people not to be
Prime Minister whilst the chaos | 0:57:09 | 0:57:17 | |
continues. But it is the breakdown
of discipline that is the problem. | 0:57:17 | 0:57:21 | |
Is she up to dealing with the
discipline? I do not think she can. | 0:57:21 | 0:57:25 | |
Look at that lot, there are 30 of
them around the table. I was looking | 0:57:25 | 0:57:31 | |
at the photo. In the good old days,
permit me to say that, it was not | 0:57:31 | 0:57:39 | |
like that, only secretaries of State
sat in the Cabinet. Now you get | 0:57:39 | 0:57:43 | |
ministers of state, and all manners
of odds and bits sitting at the | 0:57:43 | 0:57:48 | |
table and of course they will
squabble. But they will not squabble | 0:57:48 | 0:57:52 | |
with any grandiloquence. When you
get people like Boris, he is | 0:57:52 | 0:57:56 | |
untameable unless you sack him. Can
she sack him? I do not think so. She | 0:57:56 | 0:58:01 | |
was going to sack Philip Hammond if
she won a majority at the election. | 0:58:01 | 0:58:07 | |
And she did not win a majority and
that hampers her ability to impose | 0:58:07 | 0:58:12 | |
discipline. It makes it impossible
for her. The trouble is that Theresa | 0:58:12 | 0:58:16 | |
May became Prime Minister but she
was not one of the above and there | 0:58:16 | 0:58:22 | |
were no real qualities she had to be
Prime Minister. Those of the above | 0:58:22 | 0:58:28 | |
are even less qualified now than
they were. I am not sure she will be | 0:58:28 | 0:58:31 | |
calling you in to help bring the two
sites together. | 0:58:31 | 0:58:34 | |
sites together. | 0:58:34 | 0:58:35 | |
There's just time before we go
to find out the answer to our quiz. | 0:58:35 | 0:58:38 | |
The question for today
was which political relative | 0:58:38 | 0:58:40 | |
is headed to the jungle
for the new series of ITV's | 0:58:40 | 0:58:43 | |
I'm A Celebrity,
Get Me Out Of Here? | 0:58:43 | 0:58:45 | |
Was it a) Samantha Cameron. | 0:58:45 | 0:58:46 | |
b) Philip May. | 0:58:46 | 0:58:47 | |
c) Piers Corbyn. | 0:58:47 | 0:58:48 | |
or d) Stanley Johnson. | 0:58:48 | 0:58:49 | |
So Clare what's the correct answer? | 0:58:49 | 0:58:51 | |
I would imagine it is Stanley
Johnson. And you are right, it is | 0:58:51 | 0:58:57 | |
Boris's father who is heading to the
jungle and I can imagine he will I | 0:58:57 | 0:59:01 | |
get there. | 0:59:01 | 0:59:02 | |
jungle and I can imagine
he will I get there. | 0:59:02 | 0:59:04 | |
That's all for today. | 0:59:04 | 0:59:05 | |
Thanks to our guests. | 0:59:05 | 0:59:07 |