14/11/2017 Daily Politics


14/11/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics,

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where MPs are getting ready to begin

a marathon series of debates

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over Brexit that could

last until Christmas.

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The EU Withdrawal Bill is intended

to copy EU rules into British law,

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but the government's opponents,

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including a number of

Conservative rebels,

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are threatening guerilla warfare

in the Commons

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with hundreds of amendments.

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We'll bring you up to speed.

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The chancellor Philip Hammond

is still beavering away

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on next week's Budget,

so will he welcome some

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friendly advice from

backbencher Jacob Rees Mogg?

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We'll speak to him about his

alternative Budget for Brexit.

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It's been claimed that vital NHS

operations and treatments

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are increasingly being rationed

in England but is there a good case

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for restricting treatment

for smokers or the overweight?

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And there's plenty for Theresa May's

cabinet to chew over when they meet

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this morning amid reports

that they're not exactly

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getting along swimmingly.

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We'll ask a member of

John Major's cabinet for some

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tips on restoring harmony.

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All that in the next hour on another

busy day here at Westminster,

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and with us for the whole

of the programme today,

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it's the former head

of the Royal College

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of GPs Clare Gerada.

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She is still a GP and she also

campaigned with the Liberal

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Democrats at the last election.

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Welcome to the show.

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First today, the monthly inflation

figures for the UK have been

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released this morning,

that's the consumer price index

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which measures the rate of increase

in the prices of goods and services.

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And according to the Office

for National Statistics it has

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remained at its five-year high

of 3%, which means there is no let

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up in the cost of living squeeze

hitting UK households,

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although the rate has not

risen higher as predicted

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by some economists.

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Well let's talk now to our economics

editor Kamal Ahmed

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who can tell us what that means.

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Has it peaked, inflation? Well,

certainly, there seems to be some

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evidence that the foot has come off

the inflation accelerates a full.

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First of all, the sterling effect,

so, the decline in the value of

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sterling after the referendum meant

that the goods and services we

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imported into the UK became more

expensive, that pushed up inflation.

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Inflation is a comparative number,

compared with what is happening this

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time a year ago, that inflation

effect starts to fall out of the

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data, Stirling, although it is low,

is staying at the same low rate.

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That inflation effect seems to

dissipate a bit. Well prices are not

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rising as fast as they were this

time last year. The big question, as

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you suggest, does it mean we have

hit a peak? We are seeing the top of

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the upward curve, certainly, the

Bank of England believes the peak

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will be reached by the end of the

year. There are still some in

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inflationary pressures, food prices

are the highest they have been since

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2013, unrest in the Middle East,

global growth, increasing demand,

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has meant oil prices are starting to

push up again. Although, yes, for

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the moment, inflation has eased,

whether or not... It is not the

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peak, it will increase a little bit

more. The overall trajectory is

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starting to come down.

Let's pick up

on two of those things, food prices,

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your supermarket shop is still more

expensive than it has been in recent

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times and wages are still not

keeping pace with prices.

Average

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household income increases are

around 2.2%. If you look at food

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inflation, running at 4.2%. Exactly

as you say, that squeeze on living

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standards continues, food is the

largest proportion of our weekly

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expenditure, and certainly for

poorer households, it is more

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significant than for richer

households, the issue you are

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starting to see is this big increase

in input inflation into the food

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system, into supermarkets, they have

suddenly had to pay a lot more for

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the food imported from the European

continent, in particular and

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elsewhere, because of the weakness

of sterling. Those prices are

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starting to be pushed through the

system, coming out the other end, in

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food inflation. That means it is

tougher, when looking at the

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Christmas spend on food. Again,

because of the sterling effect,

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those effects may start dissipating

over time. But, that fuel price

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increase, some suggestions that fuel

prices will start rising again by

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the end of the year, that will push

up the inflation numbers.

Just

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briefly, what about reaction from

the Bank of England, we saw interest

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rates double from a very low bar,

but I have seen this strange phrase,

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the Bank of England will stretch out

the horizon over which it plans to

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rein in inflation. Does that mean it

will not take further action for the

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moment?

For the foreseeable future

that is absolutely correct, many

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economists say there will not be

another interest rate rise until the

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end of next year, and the interest

rate rise, that very small number,

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0.25%, once again. The Bank of

England is not just concerned with

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inflation, where the pressure seems

to be coming off slightly, but also

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concerned with economic growth, and

the real problems are in economic

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growth, not in inflation. This will

encourage those dovish members of

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the monetary policy committee, to

say, we need to hold off any further

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interest rate rises, and weaken the

hand of the Hawks who think there

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should be more interest rate rises

to control inflation. Today's

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figure, I think, means any interest

rate rise, when it comes, is a long

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way off and will be very small.

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In the public sector, when you look

at the NHS, talk about busting the

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1% pay freeze, which would be

welcomed, but with inflation at 3%,

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it is not as much of a rise, in real

terms, it is still a cut all stop it

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is still a cut but more importantly.

-- it is still a cut.

-- it is still

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a cut but more importantly,

medicines I prescribed are from

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overseas, China, America, I wonder

how much we see the health inflation

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impact if we do not have sensible

trade deals post "Brexit", I know

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that we will be discussing it later

on in the show but for me, the big

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one is the health inflation costs

and what that means. That will feed

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into the overall economy, because we

have medicines, we take them for

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granted but they are very expensive

and if they are going to cost more

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because we do not get proper deals,

then inflation will rise more. I'm

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not an economist, just a simple

punter, but I see and read the

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newspapers and think, we are in a

very precarious position.

We will

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return to this when we talk about

Brexit in more detail.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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The question for today

is which political relative

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is heading to the jungle

for the new series of ITV's

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I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here?

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A) Samantha Cameron, wife of David.

b) Philip May, husband of Theresa.

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c) Piers Corbyn, brother of Jeremy.

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or d) Stanley Johnson,

father of Boris.

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At the end of the show Clare

will give us the correct answer.

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Let's turn to the story

that's going to dominate

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here at Westminster for the next few

days,

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and frankly for

the following months and years,

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as MPs brace themselves for up

to eight hours of debate

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on the EU Withdrawal Bill

in the Commons today.

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It's a crucial piece of the Brexit

legislation

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designed to copy

across EU rules into domestic UK law

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to ensure a smooth transition

on the day after we leave.

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And it looks like storm clouds

could be gathering over Parliament

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as MPs begin to thrash out

the details of the bill.

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Labour and a number of Conservative

rebels

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have already expressed anger

at Theresa May's announcement

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that the date we actually leave

the EU will be put into the bill

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and fixed at the 29th March 2019.

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Mrs May wrote in the Telegraph

that her government would not

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tolerate attempts from any quarter

to use amendments to the bill

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to slow down or stop our

departure from the EU.

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However, nearly 400 amendments have

been tabled

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and although only

a number will be voted on,

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they could cause real problems

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for a government with a slim

majority in the Commons.

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The amendments include calls to curb

the so-called "Henry VIII powers"

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that would allow ministers to change

laws without much Parliamentary

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scrutiny and a demand that we don't

actually leave the European Union

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until a new treaty establishing

a future relationship between the UK

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and EU has been agreed by MPs.

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Jeremy Corbyn wants to keep

the European Court of Justice's

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oversight over us during any

transition period

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and Remain-supporting Conservatives

could join with Labour

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and rebel on the issue

of giving parliament a so-called

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"meaningful vote" once

the deal has been done.

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Yesterday Brexit secretary

David Davis

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appeared to give

ground on that issue,

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promising a final

parliamentary vote.

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I can now confirm that once we have

reached an agreement,

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we will bring forward a specific

piece of primary legislation

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to implement that agreement.

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This will be known as the Withdrawal

Agreement and Implementation Bill.

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This confirms that the major policy

set out in the withdrawal agreement

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will be directly implemented into UK

law by primary legislation,

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not by secondary legislation

in the Withdrawal Bill.

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This also means that Parliament

will be given time to debate,

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scrutinise and vote on the final

agreement we strike

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with the European Union.

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This agreement will only hold

if Parliament approves.

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That was David Davis speaking

yesterday,

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but was that concession

enough for Conservatives

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who might be thinking about voting

against the government?

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Well, Dominic Grieve is a Tory MP

who has tabled 19 amendments

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to the bill and has signed more.

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He's in central lobby

of the Houses of Parliament.

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The government is promising to

enshrine the "Brexit" deal in

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primary legislation which means MPs

will be able to make amendments to

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the deal, does that give Parliament

a meaningful vote that you will

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support?

It is a very significant

change and I greatly welcome it,

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that said, it remains the case that

the Secretary of State, in

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explaining it, also highlighted that

he thought the powers to do this by

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statutory incident could not be

removed. Feels like it might be

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necessary to use them and can only

have debate on the statute after we

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have actually left. That is clearly

a very unsatisfactory state of

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affairs, the government may have a

point on this but we will need to

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explore it during the course of the

passage of the legislation and see

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how we can try to make sure that in

virtue all circumstances Parliament

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will have two reacts to the statue,

which in my view will have to be

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necessary in order to leave the EU.

At this stage, we are not saying you

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will vote against the government or

push ahead with an amendment for

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this so-called meaningful vote?

No,

yes, I should say, that is exact

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what I am saying, the amendments

table, series amendment, the

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government has come back with an

important concession, at the same

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time, that concession has been

qualified, and we need to look at

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the terms of the qualification. This

is part of the process of what

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looking at a committee is all about.

I keep what optimism that we will

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resolve many of the issues on which

I have taken amendments by

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consenting between the government

and myself. -- consensus.

Looking at

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Conservative colleagues who were at

a meeting with the Chief Whip

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yesterday, and there was some anger

expressed at that time, were you at

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that meeting?

I was present at the

meeting with the Chief Whip

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yesterday, yes.

How bad was the

feeling between yourself and the

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whip?

I will not discuss the meeting

but there was considerable anger

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among sections of the Conservative

MPs, the government having tabled

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the amendment, accompanied by a sort

of pronouncement that there would be

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fixed on the face of the bill a date

of exit, March 2019 I could not

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understand why they were doing this

and it made no sense to me at all

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except as a placatory offering to

those of my colleagues who really

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want to take us out of the EU

without any deal at all. I

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subsequently discovered this morning

that the government tabled another

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amendment, which they did not talk

about on Friday, which, if passed by

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the house, entirely negates the

effect of their first Amendment. I

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have to say, this is all a bit

regrettable, I think the government

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should be treating Parliament as

grown-ups and we should not have

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games going on which are likely to

make people irritated.

Why do you

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think they are playing games, they

obviously want to have people like

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yourself on site for this important

piece of Brexit legislation, you say

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there was a lot of anger expressed

at the time but what is essentially

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wrong with having an end state on

the face of the bill?

And end date

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on the face of the bill, which is

obligatory, is a crazy thing to do.

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We do not know exactly how the

negotiations will and, it could lead

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to a situation where we leave the EU

in chaos, whereas just by extending

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the period of membership by one

week, for example, we would have

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been able to get the deal the

government is seeking. It is a

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completely pointless amendment and

should never have been introduced to

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the statute books. What the Prime

Minister said that we will not

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tolerate attempts from any quarter

to allow amendments to block the

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democratic will of the people.

She's

talking about you.

I don't know if

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she's talking about me or not, my

task as a parliamentarian is to

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listen to the consequences of the

referendum, I have always said this,

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and I have been consistent in not

trying to obstruct Brexit taking

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place but that is not removed my

responsibility as a parliamentarian

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to scrutinise legislation and ensure

that every stage, people, the public

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generally, understand what we are

doing and the consequences of what

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we are doing, and that is what I

intend to do as this legislation

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goes through. I'm confident that as

we go through this, we will end up

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with better legislation at the end.

Are you prepared to vote against the

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government if you don't think this

legislation is fit for purpose in

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your mind?

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I said at second reading if the

legislation was not improved, it was

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questionable as to whether it was

fit for purpose. We believe that as

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a hypothetical question.

It sounds

as if you are prepared to vote

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against the government. Are you

prepared to consider what will

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happen if you vote against the

government, it could lead to a vote

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of no-confidence the government

could fall? You have taken that into

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account?

I have taken everything

into account, but if the legislation

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is not fit for purpose, it will not

deliver what the public want, a

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smooth Brexit.

Are you prepared to

bring the government down for that?

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That is an entirely hypothetical

question. I am a supporter of the

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government and my task is to ensure

the government succeeds.

Would you

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join forces with Labour on a number

of these amendments to improve the

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bill?

The question is not a question

of joining forces, as a

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parliamentarian I express a view on

the floor of the house as to what I

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think could improve the bill. If

there are other members across the

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house to share my views, they were

expressed that as well.

If you do

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vote with Labour colleagues, are you

a collaborator as your Tory

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colleague Bill Cash suggests?

All I

will say to Bill Cash is that he has

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probably rebelled against the

Conservative government more often

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than any single other colleague on

the Conservative benches in the

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course of his career. I think with

one exception over HS2, I do not

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think I have ever rebelled against

the government after 20 years in

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Parliament.

Was it helpful that will

cash did that?

I was not around, but

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he thought it was the right thing to

do with his conscience and decided

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to support the government at the

time despite disagreeing with them.

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So a deal is agreed on mice the 29th

at 3pm in the afternoon and it comes

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to Parliament and you do not like

the deal. What we do because it will

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be eight hours before the EU leaves

the EU?

We will make an assessment

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of the situation as it stands at the

time. The only option open to

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Parliament is either to accept the

deal or reject the deal and face a

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chaotic exit without any agreement

to move into any transitional

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arrangement. That is a problem for

Parliament and indeed the public

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which they will have to face up to

at the end of this risky and complex

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process.

If you reject it at that

point, there will be no time to go

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back to the EU to undo the bill?

That is right unless the EU is

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prepared to re-negotiate.

Which of

course it is not at the moment.

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Which of course it

is not at the moment.

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Well, to discuss this further we're

joined by former Conservative

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cabinet minister Theresa Villiers,

who campaigned for Brexit,

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and by Labour's Chris Leslie

who is a member of the pro-EU

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campaign group Open Britain.

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Welcome to both of you. Chris

Leslie, are you pleased that David

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Davis has now promised a meaningful

vote to Parliament?

He has tried to

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polish it up as though it is a

meaningful vote, but within the

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space of 15 minutes all of those

impressions quickly fell away and I

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think most parliamentarians,

including Dominic and others, are

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now saying, hang on a minute, what

is the point of offering an act of

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Parliament, a bill that will become

an act of Parliament, after the

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withdrawal agreement has been signed

and sealed by ministers? The whole

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point of parliamentary democracy is

you can shape events, you can steer

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what happens. If you have that Bill

before the withdrawal agreement is

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signed, so it is a draft withdrawal

agreement, that would be a

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significant concession.

Otherwise it

is a sham. When do you want it to

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be? Surely the same situation will

stand if it is a month or two months

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before we leave the EU? There still

will not be time to redo the bill

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before we go back to Brussels.

Because this is the most important

0:19:410:19:46

change in a generation we should not

box ourselves into an artificial

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timetable. We have to get it right.

When a draft, is from the European

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Commission, from ministers of the

Crown, Parliament can look at it and

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decide if it is good enough. Does it

protect businesses and jobs? Is it

0:20:010:20:07

making sure that European medicines

can flow, that we can have tariff

0:20:070:20:13

free trade? Or is it going to really

harm this country significantly? I

0:20:130:20:17

think we have got to be serious and

growing up about it and deal with

0:20:170:20:21

that before the withdrawal treaty is

signed.

Explain to our viewers why

0:20:210:20:27

does offer from David Davis is a

game changer?

It is a very important

0:20:270:20:32

compromise the government has made,

signalling it wants to work across

0:20:320:20:36

parties with people with different

views on these matters. It will give

0:20:360:20:41

Parliament the opportunity to

scrutinise in detail the withdrawal

0:20:410:20:45

agreement. I think it is a sensible

move and it does demonstrate that

0:20:450:20:49

the government wants to work across

parties to make a success and

0:20:490:20:53

deliver a smooth exit from the

European Union.

Or it is worried

0:20:530:20:57

about defeat because there could be

enough Conservative rebels that they

0:20:570:21:01

might actually lose the vote. You

say there will be time and it will

0:21:010:21:05

be meaningful, but if the deal goes

to the wire, we are talking about

0:21:050:21:10

the last moment which David Davis

has discussed, the vote could happen

0:21:100:21:13

afterwards, could it not?

Everyone

wants to get an agreement before the

0:21:130:21:19

deadline. But we have to bear in

mind that he meaningful vote took

0:21:190:21:24

place in the referendum and when MPs

decided to invoke Article 50. Once

0:21:240:21:30

we did that, the question is we get

another vote on the deal, but if we

0:21:300:21:35

reject that deal we leave under

Article 50 without an agreement.

0:21:350:21:39

There were lots of things not on the

ballot paper and that were not part

0:21:390:21:42

of the vote in Article 50, for

example the market, the customs

0:21:420:21:49

union, should we be a member of all

these various agencies? The aviation

0:21:490:21:59

situation, the fishery system. If

Parliament cannot deal with all of

0:21:590:22:06

these, what on earth is the point of

having Parliament there at all?

0:22:060:22:09

Because you want to stuff it, you

want to thwart the decision that was

0:22:090:22:13

taken at the time of the referendum

and enacted by Article 50 which the

0:22:130:22:18

Labour Party voted for.

There is no

static, democratic snapshot. The

0:22:180:22:25

situation is evolving all the time.

Yes, I am personally very sceptical

0:22:250:22:31

about Brexit, but in the House of

Commons there may be a consensus

0:22:310:22:35

which says maybe we need to stay in

the single market, maybe we want a

0:22:350:22:39

proper transition more than the deep

deal that the government are doing.

0:22:390:22:44

How can Parliament secure that if

the deal is already done and dusted?

0:22:440:22:48

That is the point. You campaign so

hard to give Parliament sovereignty

0:22:480:22:53

in this case, but it will not have

any meaning. You just said yourself

0:22:530:22:57

in terms of the deal it could well

be a take it or leave it.

That is

0:22:570:23:02

the way Article 50 works.

So it is a

sham. This offer from David Davis is

0:23:020:23:09

not a meaningful vote.

Once you

invoke Article 50, you say you are

0:23:090:23:16

leaving the European Union and that

is what will take place on March the

0:23:160:23:19

20 night.

We know the Prime Minister

has probably had some legal advice

0:23:190:23:24

because she is refusing to say if

she has had legal advice and the

0:23:240:23:29

government policy is that we leave

on March the 20 night in 2019, but

0:23:290:23:33

the government is backed into a

corner, the clock has ticked down,

0:23:330:23:37

we have not got a good deal and

Parliament might have to revoke

0:23:370:23:41

Article 50. It is far better if we

get into a situation where

0:23:410:23:46

Parliament is taken along and not

treated as an afterthought.

That is

0:23:460:23:51

revealing. At the heart of it you

want to use amendments to overturn

0:23:510:23:57

it, to block it from going along?

I

want to ensure prosperity and jobs

0:23:570:24:04

for this country rather than take an

ideological view that somehow going

0:24:040:24:07

over a cliff edge into a hard Brexit

is great for Britain.

We all want to

0:24:070:24:13

ensure jobs and prosperity and the

way to do that is by working

0:24:130:24:16

together across parties to deliver a

successful end result.

If that is

0:24:160:24:21

the case, let's do it in Parliament

before the treaty is signed, surely

0:24:210:24:25

that is the most grown-up and

sensitive way to do it.

Let's talk

0:24:250:24:30

about working cross party because

your amendments do not have Tory

0:24:300:24:33

support apart from MPs like Dominic

Grieve, so they will not go

0:24:330:24:38

anywhere, will they?

We are joined

up with Ken Clarke and in the

0:24:380:24:46

Florence speech, where Theresa May

said she wanted a transitional

0:24:460:24:50

arrangement, we want to put that

into the bill.

And how much support

0:24:500:24:55

has Theresa May got from other MPs?

Those votes will come on days six

0:24:550:25:01

and seven and eight, so we are only

at the foothills of this particular

0:25:010:25:05

bill's committee states so far.

But

you need remain Tories on side

0:25:050:25:10

otherwise your amendments do not go

anywhere.

True.

How much talking is

0:25:100:25:16

going on?

Lots of discussion is

going on across all parties. I have

0:25:160:25:21

a very strong opinion about the

dangers of Brexit and others are

0:25:210:25:24

saying they want Brexit do happen in

a gentle way with the transition. I

0:25:240:25:28

will get the best possible outcome I

can do and work with colleagues to

0:25:280:25:32

do that. But if we stick to

ideological, party political

0:25:320:25:37

tramlines, we will not do much right

for the public.

Is that what Bill

0:25:370:25:42

Cash is doing when he describes them

as Tory collaborators when they join

0:25:420:25:49

the Labour Party?

I urge my

colleagues not to vote against the

0:25:490:25:53

government, but I recognise they

have strong views on these issues.

0:25:530:25:57

As Dominic Grieve said we need to

work to scrutinise this bill

0:25:570:26:01

carefully and make sure nothing goes

through which would jeopardise

0:26:010:26:05

implementation of the result of the

referendum.

Would they be

0:26:050:26:09

collaborators if they joined forces

with the turncoat Labour Party?

I

0:26:090:26:13

would not describe them like that,

but I would urge them not to do

0:26:130:26:17

anything which would undermine

respect for the 17.5 million votes

0:26:170:26:20

in this country.

Why was it

important for Theresa May to put the

0:26:200:26:25

date in the bill? Does it not tied

the government's and by having a

0:26:250:26:29

hard buffer their in March?

The

country has made its decision. MPs

0:26:290:26:36

ratify that when they invoked

Article 50, that means we are

0:26:360:26:40

leaving on the 29th of March. It

makes sense to include that date in

0:26:400:26:44

the bill.

It is the stupidity of

boxing ourselves into a poor

0:26:440:26:49

negotiating hand so that the other

side of the negotiating table can

0:26:490:26:54

wait for the clock to come down and

we get more and more desperate for a

0:26:540:26:58

deal as time goes by. There was

nothing on the ballot paper about

0:26:580:27:02

the 29th of March, 2019. All of this

should be for Parliament to decide.

0:27:020:27:09

Do not be so rigid, getting the best

deal is what we want.

I can agree on

0:27:090:27:17

the need for an implementation

period. Right across the House of

0:27:170:27:20

Commons we agree on that. That will

enable us to prepare for Brexit.

0:27:200:27:28

Which is why some of the amendments

today are really crucial. Do not

0:27:280:27:32

forget the Prime Minister herself

said in the Florence speech that win

0:27:320:27:36

might need the ECJ to continue in

order to get existing institutions

0:27:360:27:41

in the transition. The bill as it

stands stops all of that and throws

0:27:410:27:45

it out on exit today, so the bill is

not consistent with the

0:27:450:27:50

implementation position that even

the Prime Minister has talked about.

0:27:500:27:54

How likely is no deal scenario now?

We have got this hard buffer of a

0:27:540:28:00

date which the government would like

to put on the bill and the clock is

0:28:000:28:04

ticking. Do you think no deal is now

the more likely option?

No, I remain

0:28:040:28:10

optimistic we will get a deal. One

question is the mechanics of the

0:28:100:28:14

exit deal and the second is the

trade agreement. Delivering the

0:28:140:28:18

trade agreement will be more

difficult in the time available, but

0:28:180:28:22

it is in the interests of both sides

that we do that and I remain

0:28:220:28:26

optimistic we can do both.

As a

doctor and working in the NHS, how

0:28:260:28:31

important is it for you to get that

deal?

You want to remain. I sit here

0:28:310:28:39

aghast and known as the majority of

the public do I suspect. If I was

0:28:390:28:43

offering you a major operation and

told you nothing about it until your

0:28:430:28:47

guts were spilling out and you are

on the table and told you nothing

0:28:470:28:52

about the side-effects and what it

would cost and what it would mean

0:28:520:28:55

further down the line and then you

have little choice, you would strike

0:28:550:29:00

me off and refer me to the General

Medical Council. There are real

0:29:000:29:05

people frightened about this, real

people leaving this country and real

0:29:050:29:08

people suffering and yet we are

playing party politics. For me in

0:29:080:29:14

the NHS, the NHS relies on overseas

people not just for service

0:29:140:29:17

delivery, but for innovation and yet

we are entering this process, if I

0:29:170:29:27

can finish, I understand people who

want to leave because they were told

0:29:270:29:34

more lives than a used car salesman.

Did the other side not tell lies?

0:29:340:29:39

They did not tell lies. Project fear

was considered lies. It was not, but

0:29:390:29:48

they were too arrogant and two

expert to say it does not work.

Let

0:29:480:29:54

Theresa Villiers comeback in terms

of reassuring people. You talk about

0:29:540:29:58

the majority of people. There is no

evidence to say the majority of

0:29:580:30:02

people are worried. The polls are

shifting. We do not have that

0:30:020:30:07

evidence. Reassure her if she thinks

people are literally terrified about

0:30:070:30:10

what is happening.

This is a period

of uncertainty and one of the

0:30:100:30:15

reasons we need this withdrawal bill

to go through is to ensure we have

0:30:150:30:20

as much certainty as possible for

businesses and individuals. I take

0:30:200:30:25

issue with you in terms of the

reasons why people voted to leave.

0:30:250:30:29

It is legitimate to say that we

should take back control of making

0:30:290:30:34

our own laws in our own Parliament.

That is why people voted to leave

0:30:340:30:38

the European Union.

We will have to

leave it there. Briefly, this

0:30:380:30:45

statutory instrument Dominic Grieve

topped the back that he says is in

0:30:450:30:48

the bill which would allow the

government to extend the data beyond

0:30:480:30:52

the 29th of March, does that worry

you? does that worry you?

I have not

0:30:520:30:56

seen the details, I think it was

only...

That is the detail, that

0:30:560:31:00

they can extend the date by using a

statutory instrument, it could go

0:31:000:31:06

further into the future, are you

worried?

It would be good to have an

0:31:060:31:09

exit date, if there is flexibility

that the government also puts

0:31:090:31:13

forward, I will certainly consider

that carefully, it is not worry me,

0:31:130:31:17

from what you have told me about it.

0:31:170:31:20

Chance of Philip Hammond is not

short of advice, including from some

0:31:280:31:32

within his own party, believe

supporting MP Jake Jacob Reece Mark

0:31:320:31:37

has today been delivering his own

budget for Brexit.

0:31:370:31:45

The leave supporting MP

Jacob Rees Mogg has this morning

0:31:450:31:48

been delivering his own

"budget for Brexit".

0:31:480:31:49

He predicts there will be

a £135 billion windfall

0:31:490:31:52

to the Treasury between 2020-2025

as the financial benefits

0:31:520:31:54

from leaving the EU are felt.

0:31:540:31:55

We'll speak to him in a moment,

but first let's have

0:31:550:31:58

a listen to the speech.

0:31:580:31:59

The key to economic success and the

ability to pay for public services

0:31:590:32:01

is our ability to exercise economic

freedom and simultaneously minimise

0:32:010:32:05

protectionism. The results of these

ideas will be an intensification of

0:32:050:32:09

competition in the UK economy which

will improve the UK's productive

0:32:090:32:13

performance. I confidently believe

therefore that over the medium-term,

0:32:130:32:20

the fiscal prospects are much

better, than those that will be

0:32:200:32:23

revealed to you by the Obie's

short-term projections. It does it

0:32:230:32:29

reputable, but on the basis of full

assumptions, supplied to it by the

0:32:290:32:33

Treasury.

I apologise for the

picture quality, we were hoping to

0:32:330:32:42

speak with him directly, but I think

there are technical issues which

0:32:420:32:46

prevent us from doing so, so

instead...

0:32:460:32:51

We like to introduce

you to new words on this show,

0:32:510:32:54

think of us as a political

version of Ccountdown, but

0:32:540:32:56

without dictionary corner

or the loyal fanbase.

0:32:560:32:58

Some recently coined terms include

"fake news", "gig economy",

0:32:580:33:00

or how about "gender fluid"?

0:33:000:33:01

Well, the philosopher

Roger Scruton has brought

0:33:010:33:03

one to our attention,

it's "oikophobes".

0:33:030:33:11

Oikophobes, he says,

"define their goals and ideals

0:33:110:33:13

against some cherished form

of membership against anything that

0:33:130:33:15

makes a claim, however

justified, on their loyalty".

0:33:150:33:25

Well, Roger Scruton talks

about "oikohphobia" in his new book,

0:33:250:33:27

it's called Where We Are,

The State of Britain Now,

0:33:270:33:30

and he joins us now.

0:33:300:33:36

You refer to this term oikohphobia

but is a deep cynicism needed to

0:33:360:33:42

make institutions work for everyone?

Certain measure of cynicism is

0:33:420:33:46

always a good thing, but a deep in a

system, which bases its self

0:33:460:33:51

entirely on mediation, that is not a

very helpful thing to the thing that

0:33:510:33:54

it repudiates.

0:33:540:33:56

We all of us in my view have a need

to belong, we all define belonging

0:33:560:34:01

in slightly different ways but there

are certain fundamental things that

0:34:010:34:05

we must share. A place, which is

ours, whether or not we agree about

0:34:050:34:10

how it should be governed, this is

the place we are talking about, a

0:34:100:34:15

system of law, political process

which is ours. In defining that

0:34:150:34:19

term, I was really trying to come to

terms with the growing current of

0:34:190:34:24

rejection that runs especially

through the intellectual world, in

0:34:240:34:29

which people try to define

themselves not in terms of where

0:34:290:34:32

they belong but in terms of what

they would not belong to if they

0:34:320:34:37

were not rejecting it!

Where do you

fit in, in this, are you an

0:34:370:34:46

oikohphobe

you are fundamentally

correct, we all have a fundamental

0:34:460:34:51

need to belong to a group. All have

groups, there is a great move at the

0:34:510:34:55

moment not to belong to something,

we have not to belong to a gender at

0:34:550:35:00

the moment, and the confusion that

is causing.

What about the belief of

0:35:000:35:04

being part of the country, the land.

Absolutely, as a foreigner, I feel I

0:35:040:35:10

belong to this country, this country

is very dear to me, gave me and my

0:35:100:35:14

family a home and work and gave me

my future and I belong to the United

0:35:140:35:20

Kingdom, does not mean that when I

go abroad to where I actually come

0:35:200:35:23

from I do not feel some loyalty, but

I belong here. The rejection of

0:35:230:35:28

belonging is a perverse and

pervasive part of our society, as

0:35:280:35:32

you say.

You talk about it being

part of the intellectual is...

What

0:35:320:35:38

do you mean? My colleagues in

universities on the whole, as George

0:35:380:35:42

Orwell pointed out a long time ago,

they cannot utter words like

0:35:420:35:47

England, Britain and so on without a

certain smear. It is always, we are

0:35:470:35:52

not to be identified like that, that

is what our grandparents fought for,

0:35:520:35:56

but we are in the business of

establishing our identity completely

0:35:560:36:02

apart from all the ordinary forms of

loyalty.

Do you agree with that?

0:36:020:36:07

Universities were criticised for

negativity towards Brexit, is that a

0:36:070:36:13

form of elitism that should be

discouraged?

Not at all,

0:36:130:36:19

universities were critical of Brexit

because of what people do to

0:36:190:36:23

innovation and academic and

universities that is part of it, I

0:36:230:36:25

den think it is part of not

belonging to Britain. If one were to

0:36:250:36:30

ask. -- I don't think. I'm European,

that is why I feel strongly about

0:36:300:36:36

Brexit. I was born on one continent

and I live in another, we are all

0:36:360:36:41

from all over the place, very few of

us are one bit, if we check DNA. I

0:36:410:36:46

belong here, my loyalties, we have

just celebrated Remembrance Day, I

0:36:460:36:50

was not born there, it is not part

of my culture in many ways but I

0:36:500:36:54

feel it through me.

Do you

sympathise with Roger's point that

0:36:540:36:57

there is a smear about Englishness

and England.

Yes, if you went to

0:36:570:37:05

Scotland, Ireland...

Absolutely,

yes, absolutely, again, interesting

0:37:050:37:09

point, by being in favour of

Scottish nationalism, someone can

0:37:090:37:14

use that to enhance his rejection of

England, that is one of the reasons

0:37:140:37:19

why we do not find a great

intellectual movement to smear

0:37:190:37:22

Scottish nationalism. While we do

find a great movement to smear

0:37:220:37:29

Englishness.

Do you see the support

of the the EU, the remain

0:37:290:37:33

credentials Claire inhabits, do you

see that as being disloyal?

No, of

0:37:330:37:37

course not, not in itself, best to

say. It is quite possible to be a

0:37:370:37:47

committed citizen of one country and

also have wider loyalty to other

0:37:470:37:51

things. I am very much a British

patriot, also, an English patriot,

0:37:510:37:57

and I am also European. But I also

think that in the end, one's basic

0:37:570:38:05

political identity is wrapped up

with the people who govern you.

0:38:050:38:08

Where are we governed from, by whom?

That is why I am in favour of Brexit

0:38:080:38:14

because I am in favour of national

sovereignty. But it does not stop me

0:38:140:38:18

being European or thinking that I

have a wider loyalty to the

0:38:180:38:23

continent and the civilisation that

has established.

I agree with you

0:38:230:38:26

with most of what you said except

for the last bit.

I know that you

0:38:260:38:29

wouldn't.

Quirkiness, that the

English do not promote themselves, I

0:38:290:38:34

love that, the English bemoan

themselves.

You criticise

-- you

0:38:340:38:41

criticise Jeremy Corbyn as being a

radical oikohphobe but you seem to

0:38:410:38:44

agree with him on globalisation, for

instance, one of the issues you

0:38:440:38:48

highlight is damaging the nation.

Yes, that is true, but he would join

0:38:480:38:54

in this fundamentally anti-English

sentiment, I think.

Why would he do

0:38:540:38:58

that?

He believes that ours is a

class society, which has to be

0:38:580:39:03

turned upside down, we have two

repudiates all kinds of institutions

0:39:030:39:08

and ways of doing things for the

sake of a more egalitarian border,

0:39:080:39:14

which is not defined.

If

institutions are not working for

0:39:140:39:17

large portions of society, as Jeremy

Corbyn and Theresa May have said,

0:39:170:39:21

isn't it right that they are

challenged?

Up to a point, yes, but

0:39:210:39:26

it depends upon which institutions,

not the political process under the

0:39:260:39:30

common law, that we have inherited

about which Jeremy Corbyn has almost

0:39:300:39:34

nothing to say.

Do you think it is

right to challenge in the tuition is

0:39:340:39:38

to lead to a more egalitarian

society?

Who could possibly disagree

0:39:380:39:42

with that, of course I do, but what

institutions? The NHS is the most

0:39:420:39:48

egalitarian in the juice and we have

in this country, it is classless. --

0:39:480:39:53

institution. If we put more money

into education we would then have...

0:39:530:39:58

I disagree, if we put less money

into it, it would get much better.

0:39:580:40:03

Tell that to the teachers.

Yes, I

know, but at the moment, two

0:40:030:40:09

bureaucrats for every teacher in the

state education system, that money

0:40:090:40:13

is being squandered partly because

people are not taking seriously the

0:40:130:40:17

crucial encounter, that between the

teacher and the pupil.

I disagree,

0:40:170:40:21

when you have schools having to ask

parents for substitute Harry on

0:40:210:40:25

teaching, when teachers are taking

in equipment in order to teach, and

0:40:250:40:30

where you know that bureaucracy is

management, you need to run an

0:40:300:40:35

organisation, you cannot run it on a

wing and a prayer.

I don't see why

0:40:350:40:39

not, you see, if we privatise the

entire educational system, people

0:40:390:40:44

all over the country would be taking

these initiatives and running things

0:40:440:40:47

on a wing and a prayer. I have

believed that all my life.

Before

0:40:470:40:52

you go, talking about the European

Union, you are in favour of leaving

0:40:520:40:56

it, do you access that it could lead

to worse consequences, of

0:40:560:41:00

globalisation, bargain bucket

economy, race to the bottom in

0:41:000:41:04

regulation, a Singapore style

economy, very successful however in

0:41:040:41:09

Singapore but which may not work

here?

Anything might happen, none of

0:41:090:41:16

us are a profits, and I am even less

of a profit than Jeremy Corbyn

0:41:160:41:20

because I have no power, he can

influence things. But it has ever

0:41:200:41:25

been so, all political decisions are

made largely in a void. And all you

0:41:250:41:31

have to rely upon is your own sense

of the past and obligations and

0:41:310:41:34

loyalties. -- none of us are

prophets. That is what should take

0:41:340:41:37

us forward.

Thank you very much.

0:41:370:41:41

Is it right for patients to be

prevented from having

0:41:460:41:49

certain types of treatment

0:41:490:41:51

unless they quit

smoking or lose weight?

0:41:510:41:53

Well, health trusts argue this

is often the best way to improve

0:41:530:41:56

results of non-emergency operations,

but critics claim it's also a way

0:41:560:42:00

of dealing with the pressure on NHS

budgets in England and Wales

0:42:000:42:03

by rationing care.

0:42:030:42:04

Emma Vardy's been to Hertfordshire

0:42:040:42:05

where some new rules

have caused controversy.

0:42:050:42:08

Here, some NHS patients

are given an ultimatum.

0:42:080:42:10

Under new rules, some smokers

will only be referred

0:42:100:42:14

for certain operations

if

they quit smoking.

0:42:140:42:16

Those who are obese may be

restricted from having non-urgent

0:42:160:42:18

surgery until they lose weight.

0:42:180:42:25

Clinical commissioning groups,

these are the GP-led organisations

0:42:250:42:27

that plan local care,

0:42:270:42:30

they are facing tough

decisions this year about how

0:42:300:42:33

to balance their budgets.

0:42:330:42:38

The Hertfordshire case is not

a one-off, the majority

0:42:380:42:40

of CCGs are having

to consider different ways

0:42:400:42:42

to restrict access to patient care

in order to balance budgets.

0:42:420:42:45

I think we can expect to see more

and more of these cases of CCGs

0:42:450:42:48

taking tough decisions about how

to meet financial targets.

0:42:480:42:51

The NHS is under huge financial

pressure

0:42:510:42:54

because the demand for care is going

up much faster than funding.

0:42:540:42:58

It means like Hertfordshire,

0:42:580:43:00

many areas are taking more

stringent decisions,

0:43:000:43:01

but is that fair?

0:43:010:43:06

I don't think it should be

a blank "we cannot treat

0:43:060:43:09

you because you smoke."

0:43:090:43:10

I think they should have to say,

you need this, but we want to see

0:43:100:43:14

that you are stopping smoking

in the meantime.

0:43:140:43:16

Never smoked in my life,

and I do feel that it should be

0:43:160:43:19

considered absolutely, yes.

0:43:190:43:21

I believe,

0:43:210:43:31

if you've been paying into

a national health all your life...

0:43:340:43:37

Then you should get the treatment.

0:43:370:43:38

The Royal College of surgeons has

become increasingly concerned

0:43:380:43:40

about the rationing of surgery

in the NHS.

0:43:400:43:42

It commissioned a report which last

year showed that now nearly one

0:43:420:43:45

third of clinical commissioning

groups in England and one health

0:43:450:43:47

board in Wales now have policies

which require patients either

0:43:470:43:50

to lose weight or stop smoking

0:43:500:43:51

before they can be referred

for routine surgery.

0:43:510:43:54

It fears some patients are becoming

soft targets for NHS savings.

0:43:540:43:57

The Royal College of GPs is also

worried, saying trying

0:43:570:43:59

to force patients to change

will not always work.

0:43:590:44:04

Everybody

knows smoking is bad

for us, drinking excessively is bad

0:44:040:44:07

for we also all know that eating too

much red meat is bad for us

0:44:070:44:10

and living sedentary lifestyles.

0:44:100:44:12

But it doesn't mean that we all

live by those rules,

0:44:120:44:14

and so there is a difference

between encouraging people

0:44:140:44:16

to make the right choices,

making it easy to live good,

0:44:160:44:19

healthy lifestyles, but then also

enforcing rules upon them

0:44:190:44:21

that they were not expecting

and in a situation where

0:44:210:44:24

they haven't got much control.

0:44:240:44:25

That is tough.

0:44:250:44:26

Hertfordshire clinical commissioning

group says its policies

0:44:260:44:29

are not about saving money,

but to improve patient safety

0:44:290:44:31

during nonurgent surgery.

0:44:310:44:32

Some argue that these strategies

0:44:320:44:34

are destroying the fundamental

principles of our NHS.

0:44:340:44:37

We're joined now

by Alastair Dickson.

0:44:420:44:44

He's a GP and former clinical health

adviser to Parliament.

0:44:440:44:51

Welcome to the programme. Just

before I come to you, the CCT in

0:44:510:44:59

Hertfordshire says it is not about

saving money and it is not about

0:44:590:45:02

rationing. If the surgery outweighs

the outcome, the patient will have

0:45:020:45:09

the surgery.

You have to separate

obesity and smoking. Smoking is a

0:45:090:45:20

childhood disease. I was a smoker. I

used to pick up my Father's dog ends

0:45:200:45:26

when I was an eight-year-old and it

took me 40 years to finally stop.

0:45:260:45:31

Restricting smokers and where it is

very dubious whether the risk

0:45:310:45:37

outweighs the benefits I think is

wrong.

If someone is asked to give

0:45:370:45:42

up smoking and they give up smoking

and it will impact positively the

0:45:420:45:46

outcome, is that not the right thing

to do?

Fantastic. But as an ex

0:45:460:45:52

smoker myself it took me the best

part of 40 years to give up smoking.

0:45:520:45:56

If it was that simple, we would have

all stopped a long time ago.

0:45:560:46:04

Alistair, Hertfordshire says that

before being referred to surgery you

0:46:040:46:07

will be referred to Weight Watchers

and slimming world. Is that a good

0:46:070:46:11

use of NHS money?

It is in the most

clinically appropriate

0:46:110:46:16

circumstances. We all know that as

the film showed we should do things

0:46:160:46:20

to build up our own health and look

after ourselves. That should be in

0:46:200:46:25

the overall promotion anyway. If you

are talking about everybody and not

0:46:250:46:29

targeting, then one cannot question

it. But if you are looking at

0:46:290:46:35

someone who is struggling and they

are getting problems with arthritis

0:46:350:46:39

in the knees and their hips, we know

from guidelines that this should be

0:46:390:46:44

part of a package of care. It should

not be just thrown in at the end.

0:46:440:46:50

What we should be doing is working

proactively to do this. When we are

0:46:500:46:55

looking at surgery we should be

saying, look, it is important for

0:46:550:47:00

you to lose weight. We know you will

have a better chance with your knees

0:47:000:47:05

particularly of actually having a

safe and fulfilling operation with

0:47:050:47:08

good outcomes afterwards with

minimising failure if you can get

0:47:080:47:13

your weight down.

Hips it is not so

obvious for. Is there not also an

0:47:130:47:19

aspect of saving money. If you can

defer these operators, it will

0:47:190:47:24

improve the outcome, but it saves

money and it is a form of rationing.

0:47:240:47:28

Everything is a form of rationing if

looked at in the right manner. But I

0:47:280:47:32

agree, it could be a way of saving

money, but I am not interested in

0:47:320:47:37

saving money, I am interested in

patient outcomes. If we look at the

0:47:370:47:43

triage for primary care developed in

the North East and other parts of

0:47:430:47:46

the UK, we have shown that 80% or

more of people who were referred for

0:47:460:47:52

surgery did not need surgery and

benefited from things which were

0:47:520:47:56

better, including weight loss. When

you asked them, they said they did

0:47:560:48:01

not want surgery.

Alistair is right

around obesity and we have a

0:48:010:48:05

population disaster going on and we

need to tackle it at individual and

0:48:050:48:10

population level.

That could result

in a lot of people being denied

0:48:100:48:13

treatment.

What Alistair is saying

is right. Your risk of dying if you

0:48:130:48:20

have a BMI of 37-42 is quite high,

therefore a routine operation you

0:48:200:48:26

are better off postponing it and

going to evidence -based treatment

0:48:260:48:29

and going to Weight Watchers,

absolutely 100%. My issue is with

0:48:290:48:36

smokers. Where do you end with

lifestyle? If I go skiing in

0:48:360:48:42

January, should I be denied

treatment because it is a dangerous

0:48:420:48:46

activity. All of these things become

insidiously put in. You are a GP and

0:48:460:48:51

I trust you to make the right

decision, but as time goes on and

0:48:510:49:17

Is it more important than you can

show that they have low carbon

0:49:530:49:57

monoxide in their blood, on the day

of the operation, when it does

0:49:570:50:03

require you to reduce significantly

the amount of cigarettes you are

0:50:030:50:08

taking in 448 hours before the

operation.

Doctors make decisions on

0:50:080:50:13

whether to refer people to surgery

every day. Doctors make those

0:50:130:50:19

decisions.

-- for 48 hours.

Doctors

have been making assessments about

0:50:190:50:25

weight and lifestyle forever.

Up we

now have referral management.

0:50:250:50:31

Doctors make that decision. There is

an additional barrier, that will

0:50:310:50:36

increasingly be managers who then

decide, whether or not that person

0:50:360:50:40

will go on to the operation.

I

disagree, actually, we are looking

0:50:400:50:45

at the need for specialist teams.

0:50:450:50:47

I as a GP will be referring you to

surgery, but often you need a

0:50:580:51:03

specialist team.

Will there be a

case of deserving and non-deserving

0:51:030:51:06

patients.

There has to be a clinical

need for patience and they will be

0:51:060:51:12

patients who are winners and losers

in the system. The Oregon experiment

0:51:120:51:16

clearly showed that in the 1990s.

There will be deserving and

0:51:160:51:22

non-deserving and whilst I think

there are some rationing decisions

0:51:220:51:24

that have to be made on clinical

grounds, it is wrong to make these

0:51:240:51:30

decisions purely on lifestyle.

0:51:300:51:33

The cabinet has been meeting this

morning for the first

0:51:330:51:35

time in a few weeks,

and rather a lot has happened

0:51:350:51:38

since they last got together.

0:51:380:51:39

Not only have two cabinet ministers,

0:51:390:51:41

Michael Fallon and Priti Patel,

been forced to leave,

0:51:410:51:43

but there have been fresh signs that

not everyone left behind is exactly

0:51:430:51:46

singing from the same hymn sheet.

0:51:460:51:52

Oh, to be a fly on the wall.

0:51:520:51:53

So are the tensions in cabinet any

worse than this lot?

0:51:530:51:56

# I stay out too late...

0:51:560:51:59

Sir Geoffrey Howe has

announced his resignation

0:51:590:52:00

from the government.

0:52:000:52:03

How do you feel this evening?

0:52:030:52:05

Fine, how are you?

0:52:050:52:09

# But I can't make him stay,

at least that's what people say.

0:52:090:52:16

If he wished to change his

Chancellor, it was surely right that

0:52:160:52:19

I should leave the Cabinet.

0:52:190:52:21

# Can't stop, won't

stop moving, it's like

0:52:210:52:23

# I've got this music in my mind

saying it's going to be all right.

0:52:230:52:31

Here, Gordon.

0:52:310:52:33

It is not often the

Chancellor gets something.

0:52:330:52:37

At least I don't have

to worry about her

0:52:370:52:39

running off with

the bloke next door.

0:52:390:52:42

# Shake it all, shake it all...

0:52:420:52:47

The whole point is we had a great

agreement and the cabinet works very

0:52:470:52:50

well together.

0:52:500:52:54

If you think there is a time to go,

there is a time to go

0:52:540:52:57

and I want a break.

0:52:570:52:58

Is the coalition still working?

0:52:580:53:01

# Shake it all, shake it all #.

0:53:010:53:06

Well, to discuss how to restore

cabinet unity we're joined now

0:53:060:53:09

by Jonny Gifford, he's a specialist

in mediation from the

0:53:090:53:11

Chartered Institute

of Professional Development.

0:53:110:53:13

And by someone who sat

in John Major's cabinet,

0:53:130:53:15

which wasn't always exactly united,

the former minister David Mellor.

0:53:150:53:22

Welcome to both of you. David

Mellor, none of us are in the

0:53:220:53:28

Cabinet and none of us were dead

this morning when they met and they

0:53:280:53:31

are divided on a number of issues,

but that is not unusual. How would

0:53:310:53:35

you assess the state of Theresa

May's government?

I think appalling.

0:53:350:53:40

I have been in politics for 50 years

and have been actively involved in

0:53:400:53:46

it for most of that time and have

never been so depressed about the

0:53:460:53:50

state of it. There is grandeur when

candidates get angry with people in

0:53:500:53:56

cabinets.

These people are pygmies.

But the fallout is the same. If we

0:53:560:54:04

look back at previous governments,

you mentioned Margaret thatcher and

0:54:040:54:07

Michael Heseltine, there were sleaze

allegations against politicians and

0:54:070:54:16

back to basics was ridiculed.

Is it

really any worse? It is worse today

0:54:160:54:21

because lots of good work was being

done by John Major. He had two good

0:54:210:54:27

chancellors. Norman Lamont was

unfortunate with the ERM and the

0:54:270:54:31

exchange rate mechanism and was

brought down by it. Ken Clarke was

0:54:310:54:35

an excellent Chancellor and the

British economy was handed over in

0:54:350:54:38

good shape to Tony Blair. I think

there was a great deal of common

0:54:380:54:43

effort. Whereas this lot cannot help

but squabble. They are not big

0:54:430:54:49

beasts and there is no discipline.

Under Mrs Thatcher if you went out

0:54:490:54:53

and said what you thought about

things, Bernard Ingham would descend

0:54:530:54:57

on you like a tonne of bricks. Even

if you thought she was wrong, you

0:54:570:55:01

had to keep your opinion to yourself

as I had to do on a number of

0:55:010:55:06

occasions. But this is anarchy,

anything goes. The cat does not have

0:55:060:55:11

to be away before the mice connect

to play, the cat can be around and

0:55:110:55:15

the mice are not afraid of it.

Imagine you were given the case that

0:55:150:55:19

David Miller says exists at the top

of government, what would you do?

It

0:55:190:55:25

is not an uncommon phenomenon.

I am

sorry to hear that.

From our own

0:55:250:55:30

work we can see that one in four of

UK employees would identify that

0:55:300:55:34

they have had some kind of

interpersonal conflict given a 12

0:55:340:55:38

month period and that can involve

any sort of behaviours ranging from

0:55:380:55:42

lack of respect due to refusing to

work together or verbal abuse,

0:55:420:55:47

shouting, right through to threats

of actual physical abuse which are

0:55:470:55:52

much rare but which can still happen

in one in 100 UK workplaces.

Have

0:55:520:55:58

you had Boris Johnson and Philip

Hammond call you up?

Not personally.

0:55:580:56:03

How would you bring them together?

David talked about working together,

0:56:030:56:09

lack of unity. I think one of the

common things in any kind of

0:56:090:56:13

conflict is recognising that there

are interests that prevail over

0:56:130:56:19

positions, so getting people to

think about what do they actually

0:56:190:56:23

want from a scenario rather than why

I can't work with that person, why I

0:56:230:56:27

cannot trust that person. And then

getting them to recognise there are

0:56:270:56:32

certain parameters within which we

have got to work. There are some

0:56:320:56:36

givens in any workplace relationship

that is going wrong.

What you have

0:56:360:56:41

to remember, David, is she is

looking after Brexit and Brexit is

0:56:410:56:47

an enormous task, is it not that

that is making it difficult?

It is

0:56:470:56:51

part of it. It is the classic

hospital pass. It is appalling.

0:56:510:57:05

Think of our previous Prime Minister

David Cameron chill axing with lots

0:57:050:57:09

of money telling people not to be

Prime Minister whilst the chaos

0:57:090:57:17

continues. But it is the breakdown

of discipline that is the problem.

0:57:170:57:21

Is she up to dealing with the

discipline?

I do not think she can.

0:57:210:57:25

Look at that lot, there are 30 of

them around the table. I was looking

0:57:250:57:31

at the photo. In the good old days,

permit me to say that, it was not

0:57:310:57:39

like that, only secretaries of State

sat in the Cabinet. Now you get

0:57:390:57:43

ministers of state, and all manners

of odds and bits sitting at the

0:57:430:57:48

table and of course they will

squabble. But they will not squabble

0:57:480:57:52

with any grandiloquence. When you

get people like Boris, he is

0:57:520:57:56

untameable unless you sack him. Can

she sack him? I do not think so. She

0:57:560:58:01

was going to sack Philip Hammond if

she won a majority at the election.

0:58:010:58:07

And she did not win a majority and

that hampers her ability to impose

0:58:070:58:12

discipline.

It makes it impossible

for her. The trouble is that Theresa

0:58:120:58:16

May became Prime Minister but she

was not one of the above and there

0:58:160:58:22

were no real qualities she had to be

Prime Minister. Those of the above

0:58:220:58:28

are even less qualified now than

they were.

I am not sure she will be

0:58:280:58:31

calling you in to help bring the two

sites together.

0:58:310:58:34

sites together.

0:58:340:58:35

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:58:350:58:38

The question for today

was which political relative

0:58:380:58:40

is headed to the jungle

for the new series of ITV's

0:58:400:58:43

I'm A Celebrity,

Get Me Out Of Here?

0:58:430:58:45

Was it a) Samantha Cameron.

0:58:450:58:46

b) Philip May.

0:58:460:58:47

c) Piers Corbyn.

0:58:470:58:48

or d) Stanley Johnson.

0:58:480:58:49

So Clare what's the correct answer?

0:58:490:58:51

I would imagine it is Stanley

Johnson.

And you are right, it is

0:58:510:58:57

Boris's father who is heading to the

jungle and I can imagine he will I

0:58:570:59:01

get there.

0:59:010:59:02

jungle and I can imagine

he will I get there.

0:59:020:59:04

That's all for today.

0:59:040:59:05

Thanks to our guests.

0:59:050:59:07

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