14/11/2017 Daily Politics


14/11/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by Dr Clare Gerada, former chair of the Royal College of GPs, to discuss NHS funding.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics,

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where MPs are getting ready to begin

a marathon series of debates

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over Brexit that could

last until Christmas.

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The EU Withdrawal Bill is intended

to copy EU rules into British law,

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but the government's opponents,

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including a number of

Conservative rebels,

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are threatening guerilla warfare

in the Commons

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with hundreds of amendments.

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We'll bring you up to speed.

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The chancellor Philip Hammond

is still beavering away

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on next week's Budget,

so will he welcome some

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friendly advice from

backbencher Jacob Rees Mogg?

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We'll speak to him about his

alternative Budget for Brexit.

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It's been claimed that vital NHS

operations and treatments

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are increasingly being rationed

in England but is there a good case

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for restricting treatment

for smokers or the overweight?

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And there's plenty for Theresa May's

cabinet to chew over when they meet

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this morning amid reports

that they're not exactly

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getting along swimmingly.

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We'll ask a member of

John Major's cabinet for some

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tips on restoring harmony.

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All that in the next hour on another

busy day here at Westminster,

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and with us for the whole

of the programme today,

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it's the former head

of the Royal College

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of GPs Clare Gerada.

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She is still a GP and she also

campaigned with the Liberal

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Democrats at the last election.

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Welcome to the show.

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First today, the monthly inflation

figures for the UK have been

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released this morning,

that's the consumer price index

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which measures the rate of increase

in the prices of goods and services.

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And according to the Office

for National Statistics it has

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remained at its five-year high

of 3%, which means there is no let

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up in the cost of living squeeze

hitting UK households,

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although the rate has not

risen higher as predicted

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by some economists.

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Well let's talk now to our economics

editor Kamal Ahmed

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who can tell us what that means.

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Has it peaked, inflation? Well,

certainly, there seems to be some

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evidence that the foot has come off

the inflation accelerates a full.

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First of all, the sterling effect,

so, the decline in the value of

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sterling after the referendum meant

that the goods and services we

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imported into the UK became more

expensive, that pushed up inflation.

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Inflation is a comparative number,

compared with what is happening this

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time a year ago, that inflation

effect starts to fall out of the

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data, Stirling, although it is low,

is staying at the same low rate.

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That inflation effect seems to

dissipate a bit. Well prices are not

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rising as fast as they were this

time last year. The big question, as

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you suggest, does it mean we have

hit a peak? We are seeing the top of

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the upward curve, certainly, the

Bank of England believes the peak

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will be reached by the end of the

year. There are still some in

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inflationary pressures, food prices

are the highest they have been since

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2013, unrest in the Middle East,

global growth, increasing demand,

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has meant oil prices are starting to

push up again. Although, yes, for

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the moment, inflation has eased,

whether or not... It is not the

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peak, it will increase a little bit

more. The overall trajectory is

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starting to come down.

Let's pick up

on two of those things, food prices,

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your supermarket shop is still more

expensive than it has been in recent

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times and wages are still not

keeping pace with prices.

Average

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household income increases are

around 2.2%. If you look at food

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inflation, running at 4.2%. Exactly

as you say, that squeeze on living

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standards continues, food is the

largest proportion of our weekly

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expenditure, and certainly for

poorer households, it is more

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significant than for richer

households, the issue you are

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starting to see is this big increase

in input inflation into the food

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system, into supermarkets, they have

suddenly had to pay a lot more for

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the food imported from the European

continent, in particular and

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elsewhere, because of the weakness

of sterling. Those prices are

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starting to be pushed through the

system, coming out the other end, in

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food inflation. That means it is

tougher, when looking at the

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Christmas spend on food. Again,

because of the sterling effect,

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those effects may start dissipating

over time. But, that fuel price

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increase, some suggestions that fuel

prices will start rising again by

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the end of the year, that will push

up the inflation numbers.

Just

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briefly, what about reaction from

the Bank of England, we saw interest

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rates double from a very low bar,

but I have seen this strange phrase,

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the Bank of England will stretch out

the horizon over which it plans to

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rein in inflation. Does that mean it

will not take further action for the

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moment?

For the foreseeable future

that is absolutely correct, many

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economists say there will not be

another interest rate rise until the

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end of next year, and the interest

rate rise, that very small number,

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0.25%, once again. The Bank of

England is not just concerned with

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inflation, where the pressure seems

to be coming off slightly, but also

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concerned with economic growth, and

the real problems are in economic

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growth, not in inflation. This will

encourage those dovish members of

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the monetary policy committee, to

say, we need to hold off any further

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interest rate rises, and weaken the

hand of the Hawks who think there

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should be more interest rate rises

to control inflation. Today's

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figure, I think, means any interest

rate rise, when it comes, is a long

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way off and will be very small.

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In the public sector, when you look

at the NHS, talk about busting the

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1% pay freeze, which would be

welcomed, but with inflation at 3%,

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it is not as much of a rise, in real

terms, it is still a cut all stop it

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is still a cut but more importantly.

-- it is still a cut.

-- it is still

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a cut but more importantly,

medicines I prescribed are from

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overseas, China, America, I wonder

how much we see the health inflation

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impact if we do not have sensible

trade deals post "Brexit", I know

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that we will be discussing it later

on in the show but for me, the big

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one is the health inflation costs

and what that means. That will feed

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into the overall economy, because we

have medicines, we take them for

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granted but they are very expensive

and if they are going to cost more

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because we do not get proper deals,

then inflation will rise more. I'm

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not an economist, just a simple

punter, but I see and read the

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newspapers and think, we are in a

very precarious position.

We will

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return to this when we talk about

Brexit in more detail.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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The question for today

is which political relative

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is heading to the jungle

for the new series of ITV's

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I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here?

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A) Samantha Cameron, wife of David.

b) Philip May, husband of Theresa.

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c) Piers Corbyn, brother of Jeremy.

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or d) Stanley Johnson,

father of Boris.

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At the end of the show Clare

will give us the correct answer.

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Let's turn to the story

that's going to dominate

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here at Westminster for the next few

days,

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and frankly for

the following months and years,

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as MPs brace themselves for up

to eight hours of debate

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on the EU Withdrawal Bill

in the Commons today.

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It's a crucial piece of the Brexit

legislation

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designed to copy

across EU rules into domestic UK law

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to ensure a smooth transition

on the day after we leave.

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And it looks like storm clouds

could be gathering over Parliament

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as MPs begin to thrash out

the details of the bill.

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Labour and a number of Conservative

rebels

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have already expressed anger

at Theresa May's announcement

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that the date we actually leave

the EU will be put into the bill

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and fixed at the 29th March 2019.

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Mrs May wrote in the Telegraph

that her government would not

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tolerate attempts from any quarter

to use amendments to the bill

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to slow down or stop our

departure from the EU.

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However, nearly 400 amendments have

been tabled

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and although only

a number will be voted on,

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they could cause real problems

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for a government with a slim

majority in the Commons.

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The amendments include calls to curb

the so-called "Henry VIII powers"

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that would allow ministers to change

laws without much Parliamentary

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scrutiny and a demand that we don't

actually leave the European Union

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until a new treaty establishing

a future relationship between the UK

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and EU has been agreed by MPs.

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Jeremy Corbyn wants to keep

the European Court of Justice's

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oversight over us during any

transition period

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and Remain-supporting Conservatives

could join with Labour

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and rebel on the issue

of giving parliament a so-called

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"meaningful vote" once

the deal has been done.

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Yesterday Brexit secretary

David Davis

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appeared to give

ground on that issue,

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promising a final

parliamentary vote.

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I can now confirm that once we have

reached an agreement,

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we will bring forward a specific

piece of primary legislation

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to implement that agreement.

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This will be known as the Withdrawal

Agreement and Implementation Bill.

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This confirms that the major policy

set out in the withdrawal agreement

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will be directly implemented into UK

law by primary legislation,

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not by secondary legislation

in the Withdrawal Bill.

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This also means that Parliament

will be given time to debate,

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scrutinise and vote on the final

agreement we strike

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with the European Union.

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This agreement will only hold

if Parliament approves.

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That was David Davis speaking

yesterday,

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but was that concession

enough for Conservatives

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who might be thinking about voting

against the government?

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Well, Dominic Grieve is a Tory MP

who has tabled 19 amendments

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to the bill and has signed more.

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He's in central lobby

of the Houses of Parliament.

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The government is promising to

enshrine the "Brexit" deal in

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primary legislation which means MPs

will be able to make amendments to

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the deal, does that give Parliament

a meaningful vote that you will

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support?

It is a very significant

change and I greatly welcome it,

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that said, it remains the case that

the Secretary of State, in

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explaining it, also highlighted that

he thought the powers to do this by

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statutory incident could not be

removed. Feels like it might be

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necessary to use them and can only

have debate on the statute after we

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have actually left. That is clearly

a very unsatisfactory state of

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affairs, the government may have a

point on this but we will need to

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explore it during the course of the

passage of the legislation and see

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how we can try to make sure that in

virtue all circumstances Parliament

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will have two reacts to the statue,

which in my view will have to be

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necessary in order to leave the EU.

At this stage, we are not saying you

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will vote against the government or

push ahead with an amendment for

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this so-called meaningful vote?

No,

yes, I should say, that is exact

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what I am saying, the amendments

table, series amendment, the

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government has come back with an

important concession, at the same

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time, that concession has been

qualified, and we need to look at

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the terms of the qualification. This

is part of the process of what

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looking at a committee is all about.

I keep what optimism that we will

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resolve many of the issues on which

I have taken amendments by

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consenting between the government

and myself. -- consensus.

Looking at

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Conservative colleagues who were at

a meeting with the Chief Whip

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yesterday, and there was some anger

expressed at that time, were you at

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that meeting?

I was present at the

meeting with the Chief Whip

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yesterday, yes.

How bad was the

feeling between yourself and the

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whip?

I will not discuss the meeting

but there was considerable anger

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among sections of the Conservative

MPs, the government having tabled

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the amendment, accompanied by a sort

of pronouncement that there would be

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fixed on the face of the bill a date

of exit, March 2019 I could not

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understand why they were doing this

and it made no sense to me at all

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except as a placatory offering to

those of my colleagues who really

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want to take us out of the EU

without any deal at all. I

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subsequently discovered this morning

that the government tabled another

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amendment, which they did not talk

about on Friday, which, if passed by

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the house, entirely negates the

effect of their first Amendment. I

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have to say, this is all a bit

regrettable, I think the government

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should be treating Parliament as

grown-ups and we should not have

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games going on which are likely to

make people irritated.

Why do you

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think they are playing games, they

obviously want to have people like

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yourself on site for this important

piece of Brexit legislation, you say

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there was a lot of anger expressed

at the time but what is essentially

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wrong with having an end state on

the face of the bill?

And end date

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on the face of the bill, which is

obligatory, is a crazy thing to do.

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We do not know exactly how the

negotiations will and, it could lead

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to a situation where we leave the EU

in chaos, whereas just by extending

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the period of membership by one

week, for example, we would have

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been able to get the deal the

government is seeking. It is a

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completely pointless amendment and

should never have been introduced to

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the statute books. What the Prime

Minister said that we will not

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tolerate attempts from any quarter

to allow amendments to block the

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democratic will of the people.

She's

talking about you.

I don't know if

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she's talking about me or not, my

task as a parliamentarian is to

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listen to the consequences of the

referendum, I have always said this,

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and I have been consistent in not

trying to obstruct Brexit taking

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place but that is not removed my

responsibility as a parliamentarian

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to scrutinise legislation and ensure

that every stage, people, the public

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generally, understand what we are

doing and the consequences of what

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we are doing, and that is what I

intend to do as this legislation

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goes through. I'm confident that as

we go through this, we will end up

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with better legislation at the end.

Are you prepared to vote against the

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government if you don't think this

legislation is fit for purpose in

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your mind?

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I said at second reading if the

legislation was not improved, it was

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questionable as to whether it was

fit for purpose. We believe that as

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a hypothetical question.

It sounds

as if you are prepared to vote

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against the government. Are you

prepared to consider what will

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happen if you vote against the

government, it could lead to a vote

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of no-confidence the government

could fall? You have taken that into

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account?

I have taken everything

into account, but if the legislation

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is not fit for purpose, it will not

deliver what the public want, a

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smooth Brexit.

Are you prepared to

bring the government down for that?

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That is an entirely hypothetical

question. I am a supporter of the

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government and my task is to ensure

the government succeeds.

Would you

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join forces with Labour on a number

of these amendments to improve the

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bill?

The question is not a question

of joining forces, as a

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parliamentarian I express a view on

the floor of the house as to what I

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think could improve the bill. If

there are other members across the

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house to share my views, they were

expressed that as well.

If you do

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vote with Labour colleagues, are you

a collaborator as your Tory

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colleague Bill Cash suggests?

All I

will say to Bill Cash is that he has

0:16:500:16:55

probably rebelled against the

Conservative government more often

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than any single other colleague on

the Conservative benches in the

0:16:580:17:01

course of his career. I think with

one exception over HS2, I do not

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think I have ever rebelled against

the government after 20 years in

0:17:090:17:13

Parliament.

Was it helpful that will

cash did that?

I was not around, but

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he thought it was the right thing to

do with his conscience and decided

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to support the government at the

time despite disagreeing with them.

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So a deal is agreed on mice the 29th

at 3pm in the afternoon and it comes

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to Parliament and you do not like

the deal. What we do because it will

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be eight hours before the EU leaves

the EU?

We will make an assessment

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of the situation as it stands at the

time. The only option open to

0:17:460:17:51

Parliament is either to accept the

deal or reject the deal and face a

0:17:510:17:55

chaotic exit without any agreement

to move into any transitional

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arrangement. That is a problem for

Parliament and indeed the public

0:17:590:18:05

which they will have to face up to

at the end of this risky and complex

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process.

If you reject it at that

point, there will be no time to go

0:18:090:18:13

back to the EU to undo the bill?

That is right unless the EU is

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prepared to re-negotiate.

Which of

course it is not at the moment.

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Which of course it

is not at the moment.

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Well, to discuss this further we're

joined by former Conservative

0:18:260:18:28

cabinet minister Theresa Villiers,

who campaigned for Brexit,

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and by Labour's Chris Leslie

who is a member of the pro-EU

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campaign group Open Britain.

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Welcome to both of you. Chris

Leslie, are you pleased that David

0:18:340:18:39

Davis has now promised a meaningful

vote to Parliament?

He has tried to

0:18:390:18:44

polish it up as though it is a

meaningful vote, but within the

0:18:440:18:49

space of 15 minutes all of those

impressions quickly fell away and I

0:18:490:18:56

think most parliamentarians,

including Dominic and others, are

0:18:560:18:59

now saying, hang on a minute, what

is the point of offering an act of

0:18:590:19:04

Parliament, a bill that will become

an act of Parliament, after the

0:19:040:19:08

withdrawal agreement has been signed

and sealed by ministers? The whole

0:19:080:19:13

point of parliamentary democracy is

you can shape events, you can steer

0:19:130:19:16

what happens. If you have that Bill

before the withdrawal agreement is

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signed, so it is a draft withdrawal

agreement, that would be a

0:19:220:19:27

significant concession.

Otherwise it

is a sham. When do you want it to

0:19:270:19:32

be? Surely the same situation will

stand if it is a month or two months

0:19:320:19:37

before we leave the EU? There still

will not be time to redo the bill

0:19:370:19:41

before we go back to Brussels.

Because this is the most important

0:19:410:19:46

change in a generation we should not

box ourselves into an artificial

0:19:460:19:50

timetable. We have to get it right.

When a draft, is from the European

0:19:500:19:57

Commission, from ministers of the

Crown, Parliament can look at it and

0:19:570:20:01

decide if it is good enough. Does it

protect businesses and jobs? Is it

0:20:010:20:07

making sure that European medicines

can flow, that we can have tariff

0:20:070:20:13

free trade? Or is it going to really

harm this country significantly? I

0:20:130:20:17

think we have got to be serious and

growing up about it and deal with

0:20:170:20:21

that before the withdrawal treaty is

signed.

Explain to our viewers why

0:20:210:20:27

does offer from David Davis is a

game changer?

It is a very important

0:20:270:20:32

compromise the government has made,

signalling it wants to work across

0:20:320:20:36

parties with people with different

views on these matters. It will give

0:20:360:20:41

Parliament the opportunity to

scrutinise in detail the withdrawal

0:20:410:20:45

agreement. I think it is a sensible

move and it does demonstrate that

0:20:450:20:49

the government wants to work across

parties to make a success and

0:20:490:20:53

deliver a smooth exit from the

European Union.

Or it is worried

0:20:530:20:57

about defeat because there could be

enough Conservative rebels that they

0:20:570:21:01

might actually lose the vote. You

say there will be time and it will

0:21:010:21:05

be meaningful, but if the deal goes

to the wire, we are talking about

0:21:050:21:10

the last moment which David Davis

has discussed, the vote could happen

0:21:100:21:13

afterwards, could it not?

Everyone

wants to get an agreement before the

0:21:130:21:19

deadline. But we have to bear in

mind that he meaningful vote took

0:21:190:21:24

place in the referendum and when MPs

decided to invoke Article 50. Once

0:21:240:21:30

we did that, the question is we get

another vote on the deal, but if we

0:21:300:21:35

reject that deal we leave under

Article 50 without an agreement.

0:21:350:21:39

There were lots of things not on the

ballot paper and that were not part

0:21:390:21:42

of the vote in Article 50, for

example the market, the customs

0:21:420:21:49

union, should we be a member of all

these various agencies? The aviation

0:21:490:21:59

situation, the fishery system. If

Parliament cannot deal with all of

0:21:590:22:06

these, what on earth is the point of

having Parliament there at all?

0:22:060:22:09

Because you want to stuff it, you

want to thwart the decision that was

0:22:090:22:13

taken at the time of the referendum

and enacted by Article 50 which the

0:22:130:22:18

Labour Party voted for.

There is no

static, democratic snapshot. The

0:22:180:22:25

situation is evolving all the time.

Yes, I am personally very sceptical

0:22:250:22:31

about Brexit, but in the House of

Commons there may be a consensus

0:22:310:22:35

which says maybe we need to stay in

the single market, maybe we want a

0:22:350:22:39

proper transition more than the deep

deal that the government are doing.

0:22:390:22:44

How can Parliament secure that if

the deal is already done and dusted?

0:22:440:22:48

That is the point. You campaign so

hard to give Parliament sovereignty

0:22:480:22:53

in this case, but it will not have

any meaning. You just said yourself

0:22:530:22:57

in terms of the deal it could well

be a take it or leave it.

That is

0:22:570:23:02

the way Article 50 works.

So it is a

sham. This offer from David Davis is

0:23:020:23:09

not a meaningful vote.

Once you

invoke Article 50, you say you are

0:23:090:23:16

leaving the European Union and that

is what will take place on March the

0:23:160:23:19

20 night.

We know the Prime Minister

has probably had some legal advice

0:23:190:23:24

because she is refusing to say if

she has had legal advice and the

0:23:240:23:29

government policy is that we leave

on March the 20 night in 2019, but

0:23:290:23:33

the government is backed into a

corner, the clock has ticked down,

0:23:330:23:37

we have not got a good deal and

Parliament might have to revoke

0:23:370:23:41

Article 50. It is far better if we

get into a situation where

0:23:410:23:46

Parliament is taken along and not

treated as an afterthought.

That is

0:23:460:23:51

revealing. At the heart of it you

want to use amendments to overturn

0:23:510:23:57

it, to block it from going along?

I

want to ensure prosperity and jobs

0:23:570:24:04

for this country rather than take an

ideological view that somehow going

0:24:040:24:07

over a cliff edge into a hard Brexit

is great for Britain.

We all want to

0:24:070:24:13

ensure jobs and prosperity and the

way to do that is by working

0:24:130:24:16

together across parties to deliver a

successful end result.

If that is

0:24:160:24:21

the case, let's do it in Parliament

before the treaty is signed, surely

0:24:210:24:25

that is the most grown-up and

sensitive way to do it.

Let's talk

0:24:250:24:30

about working cross party because

your amendments do not have Tory

0:24:300:24:33

support apart from MPs like Dominic

Grieve, so they will not go

0:24:330:24:38

anywhere, will they?

We are joined

up with Ken Clarke and in the

0:24:380:24:46

Florence speech, where Theresa May

said she wanted a transitional

0:24:460:24:50

arrangement, we want to put that

into the bill.

And how much support

0:24:500:24:55

has Theresa May got from other MPs?

Those votes will come on days six

0:24:550:25:01

and seven and eight, so we are only

at the foothills of this particular

0:25:010:25:05

bill's committee states so far.

But

you need remain Tories on side

0:25:050:25:10

otherwise your amendments do not go

anywhere.

True.

How much talking is

0:25:100:25:16

going on?

Lots of discussion is

going on across all parties. I have

0:25:160:25:21

a very strong opinion about the

dangers of Brexit and others are

0:25:210:25:24

saying they want Brexit do happen in

a gentle way with the transition. I

0:25:240:25:28

will get the best possible outcome I

can do and work with colleagues to

0:25:280:25:32

do that. But if we stick to

ideological, party political

0:25:320:25:37

tramlines, we will not do much right

for the public.

Is that what Bill

0:25:370:25:42

Cash is doing when he describes them

as Tory collaborators when they join

0:25:420:25:49

the Labour Party?

I urge my

colleagues not to vote against the

0:25:490:25:53

government, but I recognise they

have strong views on these issues.

0:25:530:25:57

As Dominic Grieve said we need to

work to scrutinise this bill

0:25:570:26:01

carefully and make sure nothing goes

through which would jeopardise

0:26:010:26:05

implementation of the result of the

referendum.

Would they be

0:26:050:26:09

collaborators if they joined forces

with the turncoat Labour Party?

I

0:26:090:26:13

would not describe them like that,

but I would urge them not to do

0:26:130:26:17

anything which would undermine

respect for the 17.5 million votes

0:26:170:26:20

in this country.

Why was it

important for Theresa May to put the

0:26:200:26:25

date in the bill? Does it not tied

the government's and by having a

0:26:250:26:29

hard buffer their in March?

The

country has made its decision. MPs

0:26:290:26:36

ratify that when they invoked

Article 50, that means we are

0:26:360:26:40

leaving on the 29th of March. It

makes sense to include that date in

0:26:400:26:44

the bill.

It is the stupidity of

boxing ourselves into a poor

0:26:440:26:49

negotiating hand so that the other

side of the negotiating table can

0:26:490:26:54

wait for the clock to come down and

we get more and more desperate for a

0:26:540:26:58

deal as time goes by. There was

nothing on the ballot paper about

0:26:580:27:02

the 29th of March, 2019. All of this

should be for Parliament to decide.

0:27:020:27:09

Do not be so rigid, getting the best

deal is what we want.

I can agree on

0:27:090:27:17

the need for an implementation

period. Right across the House of

0:27:170:27:20

Commons we agree on that. That will

enable us to prepare for Brexit.

0:27:200:27:28

Which is why some of the amendments

today are really crucial. Do not

0:27:280:27:32

forget the Prime Minister herself

said in the Florence speech that win

0:27:320:27:36

might need the ECJ to continue in

order to get existing institutions

0:27:360:27:41

in the transition. The bill as it

stands stops all of that and throws

0:27:410:27:45

it out on exit today, so the bill is

not consistent with the

0:27:450:27:50

implementation position that even

the Prime Minister has talked about.

0:27:500:27:54

How likely is no deal scenario now?

We have got this hard buffer of a

0:27:540:28:00

date which the government would like

to put on the bill and the clock is

0:28:000:28:04

ticking. Do you think no deal is now

the more likely option?

No, I remain

0:28:040:28:10

optimistic we will get a deal. One

question is the mechanics of the

0:28:100:28:14

exit deal and the second is the

trade agreement. Delivering the

0:28:140:28:18

trade agreement will be more

difficult in the time available, but

0:28:180:28:22

it is in the interests of both sides

that we do that and I remain

0:28:220:28:26

optimistic we can do both.

As a

doctor and working in the NHS, how

0:28:260:28:31

important is it for you to get that

deal?

You want to remain. I sit here

0:28:310:28:39

aghast and known as the majority of

the public do I suspect. If I was

0:28:390:28:43

offering you a major operation and

told you nothing about it until your

0:28:430:28:47

guts were spilling out and you are

on the table and told you nothing

0:28:470:28:52

about the side-effects and what it

would cost and what it would mean

0:28:520:28:55

further down the line and then you

have little choice, you would strike

0:28:550:29:00

me off and refer me to the General

Medical Council. There are real

0:29:000:29:05

people frightened about this, real

people leaving this country and real

0:29:050:29:08

people suffering and yet we are

playing party politics. For me in

0:29:080:29:14

the NHS, the NHS relies on overseas

people not just for service

0:29:140:29:17

delivery, but for innovation and yet

we are entering this process, if I

0:29:170:29:27

can finish, I understand people who

want to leave because they were told

0:29:270:29:34

more lives than a used car salesman.

Did the other side not tell lies?

0:29:340:29:39

They did not tell lies. Project fear

was considered lies. It was not, but

0:29:390:29:48

they were too arrogant and two

expert to say it does not work.

Let

0:29:480:29:54

Theresa Villiers comeback in terms

of reassuring people. You talk about

0:29:540:29:58

the majority of people. There is no

evidence to say the majority of

0:29:580:30:02

people are worried. The polls are

shifting. We do not have that

0:30:020:30:07

evidence. Reassure her if she thinks

people are literally terrified about

0:30:070:30:10

what is happening.

This is a period

of uncertainty and one of the

0:30:100:30:15

reasons we need this withdrawal bill

to go through is to ensure we have

0:30:150:30:20

as much certainty as possible for

businesses and individuals. I take

0:30:200:30:25

issue with you in terms of the

reasons why people voted to leave.

0:30:250:30:29

It is legitimate to say that we

should take back control of making

0:30:290:30:34

our own laws in our own Parliament.

That is why people voted to leave

0:30:340:30:38

the European Union.

We will have to

leave it there. Briefly, this

0:30:380:30:45

statutory instrument Dominic Grieve

topped the back that he says is in

0:30:450:30:48

the bill which would allow the

government to extend the data beyond

0:30:480:30:52

the 29th of March, does that worry

you? does that worry you?

I have not

0:30:520:30:56

seen the details, I think it was

only...

That is the detail, that

0:30:560:31:00

they can extend the date by using a

statutory instrument, it could go

0:31:000:31:06

further into the future, are you

worried?

It would be good to have an

0:31:060:31:09

exit date, if there is flexibility

that the government also puts

0:31:090:31:13

forward, I will certainly consider

that carefully, it is not worry me,

0:31:130:31:17

from what you have told me about it.

0:31:170:31:20

Chance of Philip Hammond is not

short of advice, including from some

0:31:280:31:32

within his own party, believe

supporting MP Jake Jacob Reece Mark

0:31:320:31:37

has today been delivering his own

budget for Brexit.

0:31:370:31:45

The leave supporting MP

Jacob Rees Mogg has this morning

0:31:450:31:48

been delivering his own

"budget for Brexit".

0:31:480:31:49

He predicts there will be

a £135 billion windfall

0:31:490:31:52

to the Treasury between 2020-2025

as the financial benefits

0:31:520:31:54

from leaving the EU are felt.

0:31:540:31:55

We'll speak to him in a moment,

but first let's have

0:31:550:31:58

a listen to the speech.

0:31:580:31:59

The key to economic success and the

ability to pay for public services

0:31:590:32:01

is our ability to exercise economic

freedom and simultaneously minimise

0:32:010:32:05

protectionism. The results of these

ideas will be an intensification of

0:32:050:32:09

competition in the UK economy which

will improve the UK's productive

0:32:090:32:13

performance. I confidently believe

therefore that over the medium-term,

0:32:130:32:20

the fiscal prospects are much

better, than those that will be

0:32:200:32:23

revealed to you by the Obie's

short-term projections. It does it

0:32:230:32:29

reputable, but on the basis of full

assumptions, supplied to it by the

0:32:290:32:33

Treasury.

I apologise for the

picture quality, we were hoping to

0:32:330:32:42

speak with him directly, but I think

there are technical issues which

0:32:420:32:46

prevent us from doing so, so

instead...

0:32:460:32:51

We like to introduce

you to new words on this show,

0:32:510:32:54

think of us as a political

version of Ccountdown, but

0:32:540:32:56

without dictionary corner

or the loyal fanbase.

0:32:560:32:58

Some recently coined terms include

"fake news", "gig economy",

0:32:580:33:00

or how about "gender fluid"?

0:33:000:33:01

Well, the philosopher

Roger Scruton has brought

0:33:010:33:03

one to our attention,

it's "oikophobes".

0:33:030:33:11

Oikophobes, he says,

"define their goals and ideals

0:33:110:33:13

against some cherished form

of membership against anything that

0:33:130:33:15

makes a claim, however

justified, on their loyalty".

0:33:150:33:25

Well, Roger Scruton talks

about "oikohphobia" in his new book,

0:33:250:33:27

it's called Where We Are,

The State of Britain Now,

0:33:270:33:30

and he joins us now.

0:33:300:33:36

You refer to this term oikohphobia

but is a deep cynicism needed to

0:33:360:33:42

make institutions work for everyone?

Certain measure of cynicism is

0:33:420:33:46

always a good thing, but a deep in a

system, which bases its self

0:33:460:33:51

entirely on mediation, that is not a

very helpful thing to the thing that

0:33:510:33:54

it repudiates.

0:33:540:33:56

We all of us in my view have a need

to belong, we all define belonging

0:33:560:34:01

in slightly different ways but there

are certain fundamental things that

0:34:010:34:05

we must share. A place, which is

ours, whether or not we agree about

0:34:050:34:10

how it should be governed, this is

the place we are talking about, a

0:34:100:34:15

system of law, political process

which is ours. In defining that

0:34:150:34:19

term, I was really trying to come to

terms with the growing current of

0:34:190:34:24

rejection that runs especially

through the intellectual world, in

0:34:240:34:29

which people try to define

themselves not in terms of where

0:34:290:34:32

they belong but in terms of what

they would not belong to if they

0:34:320:34:37

were not rejecting it!

Where do you

fit in, in this, are you an

0:34:370:34:46

oikohphobe

you are fundamentally

correct, we all have a fundamental

0:34:460:34:51

need to belong to a group. All have

groups, there is a great move at the

0:34:510:34:55

moment not to belong to something,

we have not to belong to a gender at

0:34:550:35:00

the moment, and the confusion that

is causing.

What about the belief of

0:35:000:35:04

being part of the country, the land.

Absolutely, as a foreigner, I feel I

0:35:040:35:10

belong to this country, this country

is very dear to me, gave me and my

0:35:100:35:14

family a home and work and gave me

my future and I belong to the United

0:35:140:35:20

Kingdom, does not mean that when I

go abroad to where I actually come

0:35:200:35:23

from I do not feel some loyalty, but

I belong here. The rejection of

0:35:230:35:28

belonging is a perverse and

pervasive part of our society, as

0:35:280:35:32

you say.

You talk about it being

part of the intellectual is...

What

0:35:320:35:38

do you mean? My colleagues in

universities on the whole, as George

0:35:380:35:42

Orwell pointed out a long time ago,

they cannot utter words like

0:35:420:35:47

England, Britain and so on without a

certain smear. It is always, we are

0:35:470:35:52

not to be identified like that, that

is what our grandparents fought for,

0:35:520:35:56

but we are in the business of

establishing our identity completely

0:35:560:36:02

apart from all the ordinary forms of

loyalty.

Do you agree with that?

0:36:020:36:07

Universities were criticised for

negativity towards Brexit, is that a

0:36:070:36:13

form of elitism that should be

discouraged?

Not at all,

0:36:130:36:19

universities were critical of Brexit

because of what people do to

0:36:190:36:23

innovation and academic and

universities that is part of it, I

0:36:230:36:25

den think it is part of not

belonging to Britain. If one were to

0:36:250:36:30

ask. -- I don't think. I'm European,

that is why I feel strongly about

0:36:300:36:36

Brexit. I was born on one continent

and I live in another, we are all

0:36:360:36:41

from all over the place, very few of

us are one bit, if we check DNA. I

0:36:410:36:46

belong here, my loyalties, we have

just celebrated Remembrance Day, I

0:36:460:36:50

was not born there, it is not part

of my culture in many ways but I

0:36:500:36:54

feel it through me.

Do you

sympathise with Roger's point that

0:36:540:36:57

there is a smear about Englishness

and England.

Yes, if you went to

0:36:570:37:05

Scotland, Ireland...

Absolutely,

yes, absolutely, again, interesting

0:37:050:37:09

point, by being in favour of

Scottish nationalism, someone can

0:37:090:37:14

use that to enhance his rejection of

England, that is one of the reasons

0:37:140:37:19

why we do not find a great

intellectual movement to smear

0:37:190:37:22

Scottish nationalism. While we do

find a great movement to smear

0:37:220:37:29

Englishness.

Do you see the support

of the the EU, the remain

0:37:290:37:33

credentials Claire inhabits, do you

see that as being disloyal?

No, of

0:37:330:37:37

course not, not in itself, best to

say. It is quite possible to be a

0:37:370:37:47

committed citizen of one country and

also have wider loyalty to other

0:37:470:37:51

things. I am very much a British

patriot, also, an English patriot,

0:37:510:37:57

and I am also European. But I also

think that in the end, one's basic

0:37:570:38:05

political identity is wrapped up

with the people who govern you.

0:38:050:38:08

Where are we governed from, by whom?

That is why I am in favour of Brexit

0:38:080:38:14

because I am in favour of national

sovereignty. But it does not stop me

0:38:140:38:18

being European or thinking that I

have a wider loyalty to the

0:38:180:38:23

continent and the civilisation that

has established.

I agree with you

0:38:230:38:26

with most of what you said except

for the last bit.

I know that you

0:38:260:38:29

wouldn't.

Quirkiness, that the

English do not promote themselves, I

0:38:290:38:34

love that, the English bemoan

themselves.

You criticise

-- you

0:38:340:38:41

criticise Jeremy Corbyn as being a

radical oikohphobe but you seem to

0:38:410:38:44

agree with him on globalisation, for

instance, one of the issues you

0:38:440:38:48

highlight is damaging the nation.

Yes, that is true, but he would join

0:38:480:38:54

in this fundamentally anti-English

sentiment, I think.

Why would he do

0:38:540:38:58

that?

He believes that ours is a

class society, which has to be

0:38:580:39:03

turned upside down, we have two

repudiates all kinds of institutions

0:39:030:39:08

and ways of doing things for the

sake of a more egalitarian border,

0:39:080:39:14

which is not defined.

If

institutions are not working for

0:39:140:39:17

large portions of society, as Jeremy

Corbyn and Theresa May have said,

0:39:170:39:21

isn't it right that they are

challenged?

Up to a point, yes, but

0:39:210:39:26

it depends upon which institutions,

not the political process under the

0:39:260:39:30

common law, that we have inherited

about which Jeremy Corbyn has almost

0:39:300:39:34

nothing to say.

Do you think it is

right to challenge in the tuition is

0:39:340:39:38

to lead to a more egalitarian

society?

Who could possibly disagree

0:39:380:39:42

with that, of course I do, but what

institutions? The NHS is the most

0:39:420:39:48

egalitarian in the juice and we have

in this country, it is classless. --

0:39:480:39:53

institution. If we put more money

into education we would then have...

0:39:530:39:58

I disagree, if we put less money

into it, it would get much better.

0:39:580:40:03

Tell that to the teachers.

Yes, I

know, but at the moment, two

0:40:030:40:09

bureaucrats for every teacher in the

state education system, that money

0:40:090:40:13

is being squandered partly because

people are not taking seriously the

0:40:130:40:17

crucial encounter, that between the

teacher and the pupil.

I disagree,

0:40:170:40:21

when you have schools having to ask

parents for substitute Harry on

0:40:210:40:25

teaching, when teachers are taking

in equipment in order to teach, and

0:40:250:40:30

where you know that bureaucracy is

management, you need to run an

0:40:300:40:35

organisation, you cannot run it on a

wing and a prayer.

I don't see why

0:40:350:40:39

not, you see, if we privatise the

entire educational system, people

0:40:390:40:44

all over the country would be taking

these initiatives and running things

0:40:440:40:47

on a wing and a prayer. I have

believed that all my life.

Before

0:40:470:40:52

you go, talking about the European

Union, you are in favour of leaving

0:40:520:40:56

it, do you access that it could lead

to worse consequences, of

0:40:560:41:00

globalisation, bargain bucket

economy, race to the bottom in

0:41:000:41:04

regulation, a Singapore style

economy, very successful however in

0:41:040:41:09

Singapore but which may not work

here?

Anything might happen, none of

0:41:090:41:16

us are a profits, and I am even less

of a profit than Jeremy Corbyn

0:41:160:41:20

because I have no power, he can

influence things. But it has ever

0:41:200:41:25

been so, all political decisions are

made largely in a void. And all you

0:41:250:41:31

have to rely upon is your own sense

of the past and obligations and

0:41:310:41:34

loyalties. -- none of us are

prophets. That is what should take

0:41:340:41:37

us forward.

Thank you very much.

0:41:370:41:41

Is it right for patients to be

prevented from having

0:41:460:41:49

certain types of treatment

0:41:490:41:51

unless they quit

smoking or lose weight?

0:41:510:41:53

Well, health trusts argue this

is often the best way to improve

0:41:530:41:56

results of non-emergency operations,

but critics claim it's also a way

0:41:560:42:00

of dealing with the pressure on NHS

budgets in England and Wales

0:42:000:42:03

by rationing care.

0:42:030:42:04

Emma Vardy's been to Hertfordshire

0:42:040:42:05

where some new rules

have caused controversy.

0:42:050:42:08

Here, some NHS patients

are given an ultimatum.

0:42:080:42:10

Under new rules, some smokers

will only be referred

0:42:100:42:14

for certain operations

if

they quit smoking.

0:42:140:42:16

Those who are obese may be

restricted from having non-urgent

0:42:160:42:18

surgery until they lose weight.

0:42:180:42:25

Clinical commissioning groups,

these are the GP-led organisations

0:42:250:42:27

that plan local care,

0:42:270:42:30

they are facing tough

decisions this year about how

0:42:300:42:33

to balance their budgets.

0:42:330:42:38

The Hertfordshire case is not

a one-off, the majority

0:42:380:42:40

of CCGs are having

to consider different ways

0:42:400:42:42

to restrict access to patient care

in order to balance budgets.

0:42:420:42:45

I think we can expect to see more

and more of these cases of CCGs

0:42:450:42:48

taking tough decisions about how

to meet financial targets.

0:42:480:42:51

The NHS is under huge financial

pressure

0:42:510:42:54

because the demand for care is going

up much faster than funding.

0:42:540:42:58

It means like Hertfordshire,

0:42:580:43:00

many areas are taking more

stringent decisions,

0:43:000:43:01

but is that fair?

0:43:010:43:06

I don't think it should be

a blank "we cannot treat

0:43:060:43:09

you because you smoke."

0:43:090:43:10

I think they should have to say,

you need this, but we want to see

0:43:100:43:14

that you are stopping smoking

in the meantime.

0:43:140:43:16

Never smoked in my life,

and I do feel that it should be

0:43:160:43:19

considered absolutely, yes.

0:43:190:43:21

I believe,

0:43:210:43:31

if you've been paying into

a national health all your life...

0:43:340:43:37

Then you should get the treatment.

0:43:370:43:38

The Royal College of surgeons has

become increasingly concerned

0:43:380:43:40

about the rationing of surgery

in the NHS.

0:43:400:43:42

It commissioned a report which last

year showed that now nearly one

0:43:420:43:45

third of clinical commissioning

groups in England and one health

0:43:450:43:47

board in Wales now have policies

which require patients either

0:43:470:43:50

to lose weight or stop smoking

0:43:500:43:51

before they can be referred

for routine surgery.

0:43:510:43:54

It fears some patients are becoming

soft targets for NHS savings.

0:43:540:43:57

The Royal College of GPs is also

worried, saying trying

0:43:570:43:59

to force patients to change

will not always work.

0:43:590:44:04

Everybody

knows smoking is bad

for us, drinking excessively is bad

0:44:040:44:07

for we also all know that eating too

much red meat is bad for us

0:44:070:44:10

and living sedentary lifestyles.

0:44:100:44:12

But it doesn't mean that we all

live by those rules,

0:44:120:44:14

and so there is a difference

between encouraging people

0:44:140:44:16

to make the right choices,

making it easy to live good,

0:44:160:44:19

healthy lifestyles, but then also

enforcing rules upon them

0:44:190:44:21

that they were not expecting

and in a situation where

0:44:210:44:24

they haven't got much control.

0:44:240:44:25

That is tough.

0:44:250:44:26

Hertfordshire clinical commissioning

group says its policies

0:44:260:44:29

are not about saving money,

but to improve patient safety

0:44:290:44:31

during nonurgent surgery.

0:44:310:44:32

Some argue that these strategies

0:44:320:44:34

are destroying the fundamental

principles of our NHS.

0:44:340:44:37

We're joined now

by Alastair Dickson.

0:44:420:44:44

He's a GP and former clinical health

adviser to Parliament.

0:44:440:44:51

Welcome to the programme. Just

before I come to you, the CCT in

0:44:510:44:59

Hertfordshire says it is not about

saving money and it is not about

0:44:590:45:02

rationing. If the surgery outweighs

the outcome, the patient will have

0:45:020:45:09

the surgery.

You have to separate

obesity and smoking. Smoking is a

0:45:090:45:20

childhood disease. I was a smoker. I

used to pick up my Father's dog ends

0:45:200:45:26

when I was an eight-year-old and it

took me 40 years to finally stop.

0:45:260:45:31

Restricting smokers and where it is

very dubious whether the risk

0:45:310:45:37

outweighs the benefits I think is

wrong.

If someone is asked to give

0:45:370:45:42

up smoking and they give up smoking

and it will impact positively the

0:45:420:45:46

outcome, is that not the right thing

to do?

Fantastic. But as an ex

0:45:460:45:52

smoker myself it took me the best

part of 40 years to give up smoking.

0:45:520:45:56

If it was that simple, we would have

all stopped a long time ago.

0:45:560:46:04

Alistair, Hertfordshire says that

before being referred to surgery you

0:46:040:46:07

will be referred to Weight Watchers

and slimming world. Is that a good

0:46:070:46:11

use of NHS money?

It is in the most

clinically appropriate

0:46:110:46:16

circumstances. We all know that as

the film showed we should do things

0:46:160:46:20

to build up our own health and look

after ourselves. That should be in

0:46:200:46:25

the overall promotion anyway. If you

are talking about everybody and not

0:46:250:46:29

targeting, then one cannot question

it. But if you are looking at

0:46:290:46:35

someone who is struggling and they

are getting problems with arthritis

0:46:350:46:39

in the knees and their hips, we know

from guidelines that this should be

0:46:390:46:44

part of a package of care. It should

not be just thrown in at the end.

0:46:440:46:50

What we should be doing is working

proactively to do this. When we are

0:46:500:46:55

looking at surgery we should be

saying, look, it is important for

0:46:550:47:00

you to lose weight. We know you will

have a better chance with your knees

0:47:000:47:05

particularly of actually having a

safe and fulfilling operation with

0:47:050:47:08

good outcomes afterwards with

minimising failure if you can get

0:47:080:47:13

your weight down.

Hips it is not so

obvious for. Is there not also an

0:47:130:47:19

aspect of saving money. If you can

defer these operators, it will

0:47:190:47:24

improve the outcome, but it saves

money and it is a form of rationing.

0:47:240:47:28

Everything is a form of rationing if

looked at in the right manner. But I

0:47:280:47:32

agree, it could be a way of saving

money, but I am not interested in

0:47:320:47:37

saving money, I am interested in

patient outcomes. If we look at the

0:47:370:47:43

triage for primary care developed in

the North East and other parts of

0:47:430:47:46

the UK, we have shown that 80% or

more of people who were referred for

0:47:460:47:52

surgery did not need surgery and

benefited from things which were

0:47:520:47:56

better, including weight loss. When

you asked them, they said they did

0:47:560:48:01

not want surgery.

Alistair is right

around obesity and we have a

0:48:010:48:05

population disaster going on and we

need to tackle it at individual and

0:48:050:48:10

population level.

That could result

in a lot of people being denied

0:48:100:48:13

treatment.

What Alistair is saying

is right. Your risk of dying if you

0:48:130:48:20

have a BMI of 37-42 is quite high,

therefore a routine operation you

0:48:200:48:26

are better off postponing it and

going to evidence -based treatment

0:48:260:48:29

and going to Weight Watchers,

absolutely 100%. My issue is with

0:48:290:48:36

smokers. Where do you end with

lifestyle? If I go skiing in

0:48:360:48:42

January, should I be denied

treatment because it is a dangerous

0:48:420:48:46

activity. All of these things become

insidiously put in. You are a GP and

0:48:460:48:51

I trust you to make the right

decision, but as time goes on and

0:48:510:49:17

Is it more important than you can

show that they have low carbon

0:49:530:49:57

monoxide in their blood, on the day

of the operation, when it does

0:49:570:50:03

require you to reduce significantly

the amount of cigarettes you are

0:50:030:50:08

taking in 448 hours before the

operation.

Doctors make decisions on

0:50:080:50:13

whether to refer people to surgery

every day. Doctors make those

0:50:130:50:19

decisions.

-- for 48 hours.

Doctors

have been making assessments about

0:50:190:50:25

weight and lifestyle forever.

Up we

now have referral management.

0:50:250:50:31

Doctors make that decision. There is

an additional barrier, that will

0:50:310:50:36

increasingly be managers who then

decide, whether or not that person

0:50:360:50:40

will go on to the operation.

I

disagree, actually, we are looking

0:50:400:50:45

at the need for specialist teams.

0:50:450:50:47

I as a GP will be referring you to

surgery, but often you need a

0:50:580:51:03

specialist team.

Will there be a

case of deserving and non-deserving

0:51:030:51:06

patients.

There has to be a clinical

need for patience and they will be

0:51:060:51:12

patients who are winners and losers

in the system. The Oregon experiment

0:51:120:51:16

clearly showed that in the 1990s.

There will be deserving and

0:51:160:51:22

non-deserving and whilst I think

there are some rationing decisions

0:51:220:51:24

that have to be made on clinical

grounds, it is wrong to make these

0:51:240:51:30

decisions purely on lifestyle.

0:51:300:51:33

The cabinet has been meeting this

morning for the first

0:51:330:51:35

time in a few weeks,

and rather a lot has happened

0:51:350:51:38

since they last got together.

0:51:380:51:39

Not only have two cabinet ministers,

0:51:390:51:41

Michael Fallon and Priti Patel,

been forced to leave,

0:51:410:51:43

but there have been fresh signs that

not everyone left behind is exactly

0:51:430:51:46

singing from the same hymn sheet.

0:51:460:51:52

Oh, to be a fly on the wall.

0:51:520:51:53

So are the tensions in cabinet any

worse than this lot?

0:51:530:51:56

# I stay out too late...

0:51:560:51:59

Sir Geoffrey Howe has

announced his resignation

0:51:590:52:00

from the government.

0:52:000:52:03

How do you feel this evening?

0:52:030:52:05

Fine, how are you?

0:52:050:52:09

# But I can't make him stay,

at least that's what people say.

0:52:090:52:16

If he wished to change his

Chancellor, it was surely right that

0:52:160:52:19

I should leave the Cabinet.

0:52:190:52:21

# Can't stop, won't

stop moving, it's like

0:52:210:52:23

# I've got this music in my mind

saying it's going to be all right.

0:52:230:52:31

Here, Gordon.

0:52:310:52:33

It is not often the

Chancellor gets something.

0:52:330:52:37

At least I don't have

to worry about her

0:52:370:52:39

running off with

the bloke next door.

0:52:390:52:42

# Shake it all, shake it all...

0:52:420:52:47

The whole point is we had a great

agreement and the cabinet works very

0:52:470:52:50

well together.

0:52:500:52:54

If you think there is a time to go,

there is a time to go

0:52:540:52:57

and I want a break.

0:52:570:52:58

Is the coalition still working?

0:52:580:53:01

# Shake it all, shake it all #.

0:53:010:53:06

Well, to discuss how to restore

cabinet unity we're joined now

0:53:060:53:09

by Jonny Gifford, he's a specialist

in mediation from the

0:53:090:53:11

Chartered Institute

of Professional Development.

0:53:110:53:13

And by someone who sat

in John Major's cabinet,

0:53:130:53:15

which wasn't always exactly united,

the former minister David Mellor.

0:53:150:53:22

Welcome to both of you. David

Mellor, none of us are in the

0:53:220:53:28

Cabinet and none of us were dead

this morning when they met and they

0:53:280:53:31

are divided on a number of issues,

but that is not unusual. How would

0:53:310:53:35

you assess the state of Theresa

May's government?

I think appalling.

0:53:350:53:40

I have been in politics for 50 years

and have been actively involved in

0:53:400:53:46

it for most of that time and have

never been so depressed about the

0:53:460:53:50

state of it. There is grandeur when

candidates get angry with people in

0:53:500:53:56

cabinets.

These people are pygmies.

But the fallout is the same. If we

0:53:560:54:04

look back at previous governments,

you mentioned Margaret thatcher and

0:54:040:54:07

Michael Heseltine, there were sleaze

allegations against politicians and

0:54:070:54:16

back to basics was ridiculed.

Is it

really any worse? It is worse today

0:54:160:54:21

because lots of good work was being

done by John Major. He had two good

0:54:210:54:27

chancellors. Norman Lamont was

unfortunate with the ERM and the

0:54:270:54:31

exchange rate mechanism and was

brought down by it. Ken Clarke was

0:54:310:54:35

an excellent Chancellor and the

British economy was handed over in

0:54:350:54:38

good shape to Tony Blair. I think

there was a great deal of common

0:54:380:54:43

effort. Whereas this lot cannot help

but squabble. They are not big

0:54:430:54:49

beasts and there is no discipline.

Under Mrs Thatcher if you went out

0:54:490:54:53

and said what you thought about

things, Bernard Ingham would descend

0:54:530:54:57

on you like a tonne of bricks. Even

if you thought she was wrong, you

0:54:570:55:01

had to keep your opinion to yourself

as I had to do on a number of

0:55:010:55:06

occasions. But this is anarchy,

anything goes. The cat does not have

0:55:060:55:11

to be away before the mice connect

to play, the cat can be around and

0:55:110:55:15

the mice are not afraid of it.

Imagine you were given the case that

0:55:150:55:19

David Miller says exists at the top

of government, what would you do?

It

0:55:190:55:25

is not an uncommon phenomenon.

I am

sorry to hear that.

From our own

0:55:250:55:30

work we can see that one in four of

UK employees would identify that

0:55:300:55:34

they have had some kind of

interpersonal conflict given a 12

0:55:340:55:38

month period and that can involve

any sort of behaviours ranging from

0:55:380:55:42

lack of respect due to refusing to

work together or verbal abuse,

0:55:420:55:47

shouting, right through to threats

of actual physical abuse which are

0:55:470:55:52

much rare but which can still happen

in one in 100 UK workplaces.

Have

0:55:520:55:58

you had Boris Johnson and Philip

Hammond call you up?

Not personally.

0:55:580:56:03

How would you bring them together?

David talked about working together,

0:56:030:56:09

lack of unity. I think one of the

common things in any kind of

0:56:090:56:13

conflict is recognising that there

are interests that prevail over

0:56:130:56:19

positions, so getting people to

think about what do they actually

0:56:190:56:23

want from a scenario rather than why

I can't work with that person, why I

0:56:230:56:27

cannot trust that person. And then

getting them to recognise there are

0:56:270:56:32

certain parameters within which we

have got to work. There are some

0:56:320:56:36

givens in any workplace relationship

that is going wrong.

What you have

0:56:360:56:41

to remember, David, is she is

looking after Brexit and Brexit is

0:56:410:56:47

an enormous task, is it not that

that is making it difficult?

It is

0:56:470:56:51

part of it. It is the classic

hospital pass. It is appalling.

0:56:510:57:05

Think of our previous Prime Minister

David Cameron chill axing with lots

0:57:050:57:09

of money telling people not to be

Prime Minister whilst the chaos

0:57:090:57:17

continues. But it is the breakdown

of discipline that is the problem.

0:57:170:57:21

Is she up to dealing with the

discipline?

I do not think she can.

0:57:210:57:25

Look at that lot, there are 30 of

them around the table. I was looking

0:57:250:57:31

at the photo. In the good old days,

permit me to say that, it was not

0:57:310:57:39

like that, only secretaries of State

sat in the Cabinet. Now you get

0:57:390:57:43

ministers of state, and all manners

of odds and bits sitting at the

0:57:430:57:48

table and of course they will

squabble. But they will not squabble

0:57:480:57:52

with any grandiloquence. When you

get people like Boris, he is

0:57:520:57:56

untameable unless you sack him. Can

she sack him? I do not think so. She

0:57:560:58:01

was going to sack Philip Hammond if

she won a majority at the election.

0:58:010:58:07

And she did not win a majority and

that hampers her ability to impose

0:58:070:58:12

discipline.

It makes it impossible

for her. The trouble is that Theresa

0:58:120:58:16

May became Prime Minister but she

was not one of the above and there

0:58:160:58:22

were no real qualities she had to be

Prime Minister. Those of the above

0:58:220:58:28

are even less qualified now than

they were.

I am not sure she will be

0:58:280:58:31

calling you in to help bring the two

sites together.

0:58:310:58:34

sites together.

0:58:340:58:35

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:58:350:58:38

The question for today

was which political relative

0:58:380:58:40

is headed to the jungle

for the new series of ITV's

0:58:400:58:43

I'm A Celebrity,

Get Me Out Of Here?

0:58:430:58:45

Was it a) Samantha Cameron.

0:58:450:58:46

b) Philip May.

0:58:460:58:47

c) Piers Corbyn.

0:58:470:58:48

or d) Stanley Johnson.

0:58:480:58:49

So Clare what's the correct answer?

0:58:490:58:51

I would imagine it is Stanley

Johnson.

And you are right, it is

0:58:510:58:57

Boris's father who is heading to the

jungle and I can imagine he will I

0:58:570:59:01

get there.

0:59:010:59:02

jungle and I can imagine

he will I get there.

0:59:020:59:04

That's all for today.

0:59:040:59:05

Thanks to our guests.

0:59:050:59:07

Jo Coburn is joined by Dr Clare Gerada, former chair of the Royal College of GPs, to discuss NHS funding, and ahead of parliamentary debate over the EU Withdrawal Bill, she talks Brexit with Labour's Chris Leslie and former Conservative cabinet minister Theresa Villiers.