Labour's Alison McGovern and Crispin Blunt from the Conservatives join Jo Coburn throughout the programme, with Stephen Gethins, Peter Hitchens and Quentin Willson.
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All that in the next hour in this
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What could possibly go wrong?
Braving the backseat today,
Labour's Alison McGovern
and the Conservative MP,
First this morning, the Metropolitan
Police Commissioner, Cressida Dick,
has suggested there could be
prosecutions after details
were leaked by a former police
officer of a nine-year-old
investigation into Conservative
MP, Damian Green.
He was a Shadow Home Office
Minister at the time.
Now he's Theresa May's
He strenuously denies allegations
that he accessed pornography
on his parliamentary computer
as well as claims of
towards a female journalist.
A Cabinet Office investigation
into Mr Green's conduct is due to be
handed to Theresa May this week.
Do you think the police officers,
retired police officers have
breached the code of conduct?
think plainly and it is what
Cressida Dick said it is beyond the
pale and they are going to
investigate what the implications
are of what happened. This is
terribly important for confidence in
the police. To have people in a
place where information is held by
police officers until they retire
and might be put in the public
domain, what would you be wanting to
co-operate with the police for if
you thought you could be in that
place? This is very important and
Cressida Dick's direction is
She has not been clear as
to what should happen to the police
officers. Should there be
We want ACPO to have a
look at this. Cressida Dick has
given a steer. We may have to look
if legislation is necessary if there
is a gap in the law.
They may have
thought they were doing the right
thing and it was in the public
are going to breach your duty of
confidentiality, do we need to make
sure what the public interest test
that's got to be satisfied is. It
can't be a matter of your opinion
because you think it's OK, that that
becomes all right. It needs to be
much clearer than that.
Minister just teen Greening said
watching pornography at work was not
acceptable. Do you think it should
be a disciplinary offence?
think, you know, we have to put
ourselves in the position of, you
know, anybody in an ordinary
workplace and I think Justine makes
fair and reasonable point there. The
fact is, there is an investigation
going on and I think everybody is
probably best served if that
investigation is allowed to be
concluded, but these issues about
policing and confidence are really
important. I have spent a long time
working with the Hillsborough
families. This is not just something
that affects politicians, actually,
it affects all of us if we don't
have confidence in both the police
and the process of what happens if
something goes wrong.
about Damian Green? I mean, there
will be some and there are some in
fact who think he should fall on his
sword and do the decent thing?
only because he is subject to the
investigations. Now, I agree with
Alison, we need to let the
investigations and the inquiries
take their course. That's the proper
way of behaving and people have got
to take a view at the end of that
Should the Cabinet Office
inquiry be made public so we can
make a judgment for ourselves?
will be a judgment that Theresa May
will have to make.
Should it be
I'm happy, it's a report to
her, I'm happy to let her make that
judgment. She is in a place to make
the judgment. Obviously, the default
position was that it should be made
No doubt others like the
liaison committee e for example, the
committee chairs will scrutinise her
over it in the way they do
As we speak, Theresa May
is in Brussels, meeting first
with European Commission President
Jean-Claude Juncker and chief Brexit
negotiator Michel Barnier.
Later today she'll sit
down with Donald Tusk,
President of the European Council.
The diplomatic blitz is geared
toward trying to secure the outlines
of a deal on the UK's withdrawal
from the EU ahead of a crucial
summit in less than two weeks
where the leaders of the other 27
countries will decide if sufficient
progress has been made
to move on to trade talks.
So what might Theresa May
and the EU's leading figures be
discussing right now?
The EU 27 has always
said sufficient progress
is necessary in three areas.
The so-called divorce bill,
citizens' rights after Brexit
and how to maintain the open border
between Northern Ireland
and the Republic.
The BBC understands that this
weekend a broad agreement has been
made on the divorce bill the UK
will pay - thought to be between 40
and 50 billion euros.
And on EU citizens'
rights in the UK.
But there is still the potential
that the Irish Government could veto
moving on to trade talks
because it's concerned
about the future of the border
between North and South.
They want a written guarantees
from the British Government that
there'll be no hard border and no
future change to regulations
on either side.
Of course, it's not only leaders
of the EU 27 who could make life
difficult for Theresa May.
The DUP, whose votes give
the Prime Minister her parliamentary
majority, say they'll
withdraw their support
if the Government attempts
to "placate Dublin and the EU"
by treating Northern Ireland
differently to the rest of the UK.
And on her own backbenches,
some long-standing Brexit supporters
like John Redwood and Owen
with the group Leave Means Leave,
have called on the Prime Minister
to set out red lines over
money the UK will pay,
and the jurisdiction
of the European Court
of Justice after Brexit.
Yesterday Health Secretary Jeremy
Hunt said the party must get behind
Theresa May for without her,
there will be no Brexit.
Well, earlier Brexit Secretary
David Davis was asked how confident
he was that today's meetings
would lead to a green light to start
trade talks in December.
Well, obviously that's
what we're aiming to do.
We've put seven months of work,
both sides, into getting to this
point and we're hoping that
Mr Juncker today will give us
sufficient progress so we can move
on to the trade talks.
The decision, of course,
won't be taken until 15th December,
but that's what we're hoping
for because trade talks
are enormously important
to the United Kingdom and to Europe.
David Davis there.
Let's go to Belfast and talk to our
Ireland Correpsondent Chris Page.
Chris, you have probably seen the
MEP has told the BBC that the UK is
poised to accept a concession over
the Northern Irish border and there
will be no regulatory divergence
between the north and south of
Ireland. Does that mean that the
Northern Ireland will be treated
differently to the rest of the UK?
Well, what Philip Lambert said to
the BBC is consistent with a leak
that RTE, the Irish national
broadcaster had of a document that's
in circulation in Brussels and it
said that the absence of agreed
solutions on the border, the UK will
ensure that there continues fob no
divergence from the rules of the
internal market and Customs union
and it is understood, according to
RTE that text was later changed to
slightly instead of no divergence,
it spoke about continued regulatory
alignment on the island of Ireland.
So, this really is all about whether
Northern Ireland at least will still
continue to follow the same rules as
regards the movement of goods across
as the Republic of Ireland and if
that was the case, well then yes the
chances of the border being as open
as possible would remain high, but
if there are any checks on movement
of goods, well you would see the
return of some kind of border in
Ireland. Some visible sign of a
border. So it's a very difficult
circle to square. As regards exactly
how regulatory assignment would
work, well, there is regulations
that apply to all sorts of things in
Ireland. People think that there is
more than 140 areas of north/south
co-operation. That could be dozens
of policy areas that would be
affected by regulations, everything
from agriculture, food produce, to
pharmaceuticals. So, you're talking
about a massive amount of policy
areas there and as regards the very
basic debate seems to be had in the
negotiations all around regulatory
alignment and regulatory
divergesance, it is that that
everybody with a stake including the
Democratic Unionist Party, will be
looking at to see if it is something
that will satisfy them.
do you think? They are critically
important in this, the Democratic
Unionist Party. Will they buy the
wording that you have just outlined
in terms of that draft agreement?
There has been no official reaction
from them yet in public or in
private, but I should think they are
carefully considering everything
that's being discussed. They made
clear they are loo the loop here and
they are just in the loop as regards
the British Government keeping in
touch with them, but the Irish
Government. So, I think, it's all
going to come down to whether or not
if there is going to be some talk of
regulatory assignment whether that's
couched in a certain language and
maybe certain caveat that will able
them to say, that doesn't mean that
Northern Ireland will be set apart
in a major way. That is the DUP's
bottom line and in the past, they
have said that no regulatory
divergence would mean it would be
inevitable, there would be some kind
of checks between Northern Ireland
and the rest of the UK. So they
wouldn't tolerate that, but it
depends if there can be some kind of
softening of the language around
that which means the DUP think it is
something that they can work with.
Chris Page, thank you.
And we can go live
to Brussels now to our
Europe Correspondent Kevin Connolly.
Intense activity at the weekend and
the feeling that 90% chance of talks
moving on this month. Following on
from this draft text that's been
leaked, do you think there is now
broad agreement even on the Irish
Well, there is a sense
that some form of words has been
found which will keep everybody on
board for now. Don't forget, you
don't have to solve or fix the Irish
border issue now, you just have to
make a political declaration that
sufficient progress has been made.
That's why you have had this couple
of days rather than reminiscent of
the Irish peace process for people
who remember it, where you have got
phraseology about no regulatory
divergence or continued regulatory
alignment and what's the difference
between those two? You are looking
for elastic phraseology that will
somehow keep everybody happy for
now. I think that's do-able and I
think the Irish Government, while in
theory, it has a veto on the move to
trade talks, would be highly
reluctant to be put into a position
where it appeared to be using that
veto. So I think, sufficient
progress is within reach on the
Irish border. We're told it's done
on money. There are outstanding
issues on citizens rights, the
European Parliament representative
who apparently didn't see the
headlines about the 85 to 90% has
been talking about a 50/50 chance of
a deal today. There are still things
he wants on citizens rights for
those Europeans hold be left in the
UK after Brexit and he is still, I
suppose, looking for concessions and
just as the Irish Government
obviously saw this as its moment of
maximum opportunity, maximum
leverage in the process, I think
there is a feeling in Brussels that
the British side is pretty desperate
for a move to trade talks a and that
more concessions might be there to
be had. So it will be a big day
here. Will it be the definitive one?
I think there is a good chance that
the UK will get that move to trade.
Kevin Connolly, thank you very much.
Crispin Blunt are you confident
there will be a deal in two weeks?
I'm hopeful. I don't think the EU
representative doesn't have a veto.
The European Parliament has a veto
at the end of the process.
think Britain can move on to phase
two, trade talks?
I can't believe
that the Irish Government are going
to commit Harry Curie by setting up
a situation of putting the British
Government in a position to try to
agree something which it couldn't
possibly compromise on which is
creating some border down the Irish
So they will concede in terms
of having this alignment?
will find their way and the
elasticity of language will be
offered to them and relying on the
good intentions of the UK Government
to make sure that this border at the
end of this process is as soft as it
can be. It is not in our gift, it is
in the gift of the 27 about the
depth of the trade deal they give
Are you confident this is the
point at which the Government can
see the next phase coming into view?
In the end at the moment, the Brexit
problem is consuming far too much of
Government and we can't get on to
deal with the things that people
want us to, like sorting out the
Health Service and schools. I take
issue with the idea that somehow,
the Irish Government have created
this problem, because we have been
asking in Parliament for the UK
Government to tell us what they want
for the border between Northern
Ireland and the republic.
said an invisible border to
There but not there. We
can't do that until we know that the
The key point we have
discovered today is that in the end
the language is important because
you have to keep people onboard and
you have to be diplomatic, but it
comes down to what are our policies
going to be? We have got to decide,
do we want to really move away from
the European model or we want to
stick with it. If we are prepared to
stick with it there will be a deal
available. I worry about Theresa May
being dragged off to one side by the
hard right in her party and Nigel
Farage dictating what the Brexit
should look like, rather than having
the common-sense to stick with the
mod that will we, has worked for us.
It will look like what the 27 are
prepared to negotiate with us.
Britain doesn't have a vision or a
We want a deep free trade
agreement and we would like it to be
as deep in service as it St in
goods. It is unLukely I think our
European colleagues are going to
concede that because that is the
only area we run a trade surplus in.
It has come as a massive cost.
us cut that down. Half is related to
the trans pan situation period which
would be our normal run of subsidies
You don't see it as a big cost?
The number doesn't come as a
surprise to me, if you have the
additional liabilities outside the
normal run of businesses, the future
leash, it seems about... --
Why did Boris Johnson
say go whistle on the money?
at that stage numbers were being put
into the suggested at the order of
60 to 100 billion. That is, and so
effectively that would be 40-80
billion' the 20 that Theresa May may
clear -- made clear was going to
You accept there is a price to
Of course there is. The country
is making a big strategic... There
are going to be up front costs and
we want the good will of our
partners going forward.
movement of talks on the a trade
deal, the one thing that is probably
guaranteed to kill off a likelihood
of the UK staying in the single
In the general
election in June I spoke to
constituents who voted leave and
remain, I think we should stay in
the single market because that will
help us get a deal done. So it is
proving. In the end we have to
decide do we want to stick with the
terms of trade that we broadly had
as part of the European Union, and
say in the single market and keep
business going in our country, or do
we want to tear it up and take a
massive risk, and you know, offer
business massive uncertainty with
the consequences for income in our
taxes, I just don't think that
people really want that in this
You say people don't really
want it, for people who vote for
Brexit who see a potential deal
where we don't accept free movement
of people, we aren't subject to EU
law they will think that is fine?
What is that potential deal? If what
we are talking about is regulatory
divergence, so if we say the
policies, rip them up, that
regulatory divergence, it creates
serious problems in terms of our
relationship with the EU, that
consequently causes problems for
business, and I don't think that is
really what people...
Has she got a
take too many seconds of implication
of staying in the single market to
realise that is not an option. If
you stay in the single market after
we have left the European Union you
continue to pay the money into the
budget, you don't have any say over
the development of regulations as
they continue to operate in the
single market that thereafter. That
is not a place that a country could
put itself in.
I don't see why. We
would be talking about new
arrangement for us and have to work
out how we were going to have
influence, absolutely, but there are
problems if we just leave, we have
basically a whole complicated big
industry like the chemicals
industry, like life sciences that
relies on the regulatory
arrangements we currently have. If
we are going to rip them up and
start again Andy verge from that
European model, we have to know how
those industries are going to carry
It is a British objective to get
as close to that as possible, and
the terms of that agreement are
going to be determined by our 27
negotiating partners not by us, you
can't have a future arrangement
where by the, we will subject
ourselves by the rules, and to
continue to pay...
Any deal we make,
if we make a deal, a trade deal with
anybody, with the American, with the
Chinese, we will have to commit
ourselves to rules we are not
entirely in control of. That is what
trade deals do.
That is the position
we are in at the moment.
have no input. ...
So far, so far
what exactly has the EU conceded on.
Jeremy Hunt said it's a technical
point as to whether the UCE -- ECJ
In the transition
period I can see a role for the ECJ,
beyond that our Supreme Court is
going to have to be the Supreme
Court in the United Kingdom.
looks as if it will go further than
the transition period. Would you not
Well, that would depend
if you had specific areas of
agreement, where you thought you
needed a body that is going to be
the decision maker, you might want
to consider whether the ECJ would be
appropriate and you could have
confidence in it. Those would be
individual decisions in narrow
In terms of after second
referendum, the you think there is
any situation in which Labour would
I am really off reference
darks and partly because of the
conduct of the EU referendum and
also, the division that the Scottish
independence referendum caused. What
I would like is a general election
and I would like my party to put
forward a strong, pro-European
vision that says that the social
model we have seen in Europe, where
you have markets that are
constrained by rules and regular
losings, that is why we will have a
different negotiating sense.
I would like us to put that forward
in a general election and test our
arguments with the public. Let us
leave it there.
Let us leave it there.
Now, if you thought all the Brexit
action was on the other side
of the North Sea today,
you'd be wrong.
The Withdrawal Bill is back
in the Commons and debate turns
to who will be "taking back control"
after Brexit - Westminster
or will the devolved
institutions in Edinburgh,
Cardiff and, once it's
up and running again,
Stormont have a bigger say?
Let's talk to the SNP's Stephen
Gethins who is in Central Lobby.
What are you cob sense about the way
the bill is drafted?
concerns that those powers that are
are the responsibility of the
devolved administrations we were
told would be sent back to them
without touching the sides, are
coming back to Westminster, and
Westminster will be retaining
control of those, so as well as
taking back control from Brussels,
Westminster is taking back control
from Cardiff, Belfast or Edinburgh.
The attention is not on what the SNP
You are to some extent
a sideshow compared to what is
happening over moving on the trade
This is a big negotiation.
But just to correct you on
something. This isn't an SNP
amendment, it was drafted by the
Scottish Government and a Welsh
Government but also, which has been
packed by the greens and the Liberal
Democrats as well as Labour here at
Westminster as well. So this is a
pan institution, cross-party
amendment, to stop that power grab
that is going on as Westminster.
also an attempt to frustrate the
process of the UK leading the EU.
This is about representing the
devolution process, when we joined
the European Union, the devolved add
Miguel minute stranges weren't in
place, the UK is not the same state
as 40 years ago, what our amendment
does is to respect the state, if you
like, the state we are in just now.
This isn't something coming from the
House of Commons in this cross-party
group. This is something recognised
by the House of Lords, the law
society of Scotland and various
Evers as well. There is a hole at
the heart of this H it doesn't
rerespect the process. Our amendment
seek -- change that. Clause 11 of
the bill maintains the status quo.
It would prevent the admission stray
-- administrations from changing
laws. Why does it matter whether the
powers are at recommend if you are
not going to change them? This goes
to the heart of why people weren't
understanding the role of the EU. In
the role of the EU you can go over
there, negotiate. If they come back
to Westminster, on areas that are
devolved like fishing, farming
climate change, energy and these
raft of power, Westminster will be
making the decisions. We were told
we would get the powers back without
touching the sides. It keeps the
promise made during the referendum
What changes would you make
We would want to see the
Scottish Government and the Welsh
Assembly and when it is up and
running the Northern Ireland as
well. Have a full role that knows...
What changes would you make?
change, what we would like to see is
we would like to see our amendments
being accepted which means the
Scottish Parliament would have to
agree and the common frameworks
would have to be agreed.
That is an important change
to be made and represents the state
we are in.
What about respecting
leave voters in places, in fishing
and farming communities, in places
in the north of Scotland where the
leave vote was the highest. Every
local authority area in Scotland
voted to remain. Including in my own
constituency. In all of these areas
what we want to see is respect what
Vote Leave promised so if they said
these powers would come back, this
is holding the Government and
holding the ministers in vote leave
to account for the promise they made
as much as they made to even else in
the UK. The UK Government is facing
pressure from the 13 Conservative
members so the Government will
ensure the powers are returned to
Holyrood and your colleague also
Conservatives with vote for the
amendment to us their Monday where
their mouth is, show they against
the power grab back to Westminster,
do what they were elected to do so
they can businessman them today.
terms of what happens now, once
these amendments have passed or not
you will lose leverage in terms of
pushing for further amendment.s. One
thing that the Conservative
Government has failed to grasp, we
have torque boy as cross-party
lines. That goes for the devolved
administration, devolution is a
Thank you very much. Before we move
on, we have had a response from the
Democratic Unionist Party Sammy
Wilson this is about the regulatory
alignment talked about. They say it
would be vetoed at stompt. What do
you say to that. They could pull the
plug on this.
So the Conservative
would if it is put into a position
where we have to create new
boundaries between Northern Ireland
and Great Britain. We will be United
Kingdom at the start of this process
and UK young at the end. That is why
the Irish Government about where
they try to push the British
government, because if we are driven
up a cul-de-sac where the issues
You wouldn't agree to
regulatory alignment yourself.
have to get into the area where
there, if you like sensible
elasticity of language that can get
us to a place where the good will in
the United Kingdom and in the
Republic of Ireland, to make the
border issue work at the end of the
process when we know what the deal
is, then all that good will will
kick in and we will make the mens of
what we are presented with.
true, this is the last stage, the
Irish Government can exert maximum
This is the question. I
feel terrible, actually we have got
to this point and I think a lot of
people didn't think about Northern
Ireland until too late. That is an
incredible shame and those of us who
grew up under the shadow of what
happened in the past. You know
regret that deep. I -- wish the
Tories exerted it sooner and we
could have got this dealt with
clearly, we neat regulatory
alignment. That is clear, I wish we
could have said that ages ago and
reached out to our friend in Ireland
and sorted it out a long time ago.
Now, Labour grandee Roy Hattersley
wrote this weekend that the party
was facing the "greatest crisis
in its history".
The cause, he says,
is the infiltration of the group
Momentum, who have taken a number
of seats on the party's
They are now campaigning
for their preferred candidates to be
nominated as Labour council
candidates and in target
angering many existing Labour
councillors who are facing
deselection as a result.
One of those who has already been
deselected is the Sheffield
councillor Kieran Harpham,
and he joins us now
from our studio there.
Welcome to the programme. Why were
you facing reselection?
process ke go through as local
councillors. Every time our seats
are up for election.
And were you
expecting to be opposed?
I think I
was expect, I think you always have
to expect some resistance to your
Tell us what happened?
So, I was
short listed with five, well, five
other candidates and two reserve
candidates. Two of those candidates
I was up against got seats in other
parts of the city and then I was up
against the five that were left and
we then had a reselection meeting
about three weeks later. In which I
How did you feel
about it afterwards?
obviously. I mean it's a loss of a
job. It is a loss of a stable
income, but I'm young. I'm a young
bloke. I imagine I can get a
different job. I will be standing
again in future for a council seat
somewhere else if I can.
given a reason for your deselection?
It's not typically the way that we
would do it necessarily given any
particular reason. It's a democratic
process. I was, there was about 70
members in the room at the time. So,
you know, each one of them, I
wouldn't expect each one of them to
give me a specific reason as to why
they didn't vote for me.
Do you have
any idea as to why you might not
have been reselected?
I have had my
disagreements as we all do with
various members and members of the
party at times. You know, you can
have disagreements over various
things. The Labour Party is a broad
church and not all of us agree all
One person said it was
because you weren't left-wing
enough, what do you say to that?
don't agree with the fact I'm not
left-wing enough. I was brought up
in a working estate in Sheffield. I
wouldn't call myself not left-wing.
That's not true.
What do you think
is happening in the Labour Party at
I think there is
something happening in the party at
the moment. I mean we have seen the
membership increase over the last
two years. But I don't necessarily,
you know, this is a thing that
happens from time to time. My dad
was a serving councillor for 15
years. He was deselected the first
time round and had to go and stand
I was going to say thank you very
much for joining us today.
And here in the studio now
is Aaron Bastani of Novara Media
who is also a member of Momentum.
Alison McGovern was one of the those
to resign her shadow ministerial
post in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's
leadership in 2016.
Welcome to the programme.
should a long-standing councillor be
replaced by someone who has only
been a Labour member for a couple of
And long may it continue.
They had disagreements and he had
In Haringey there was a development
which has caused a lot of
consternation, local MPs are opposed
to it, you couldn't call those
radical left Wenger entourists and a
majority of the local community and
are opposed, that has meant a number
of councillors have chosen not to
rerun or have not been reselected.
It is specific on local issues and
by the way, there are people like
Vincent Carol who signed alert in
2016 against Jeremy Corbyn, he has
not been reselected because he has
an anti-DV position.
Is this democracy in action?
should be talking about the need of
Local Government to have proper
adult social care and do all the
important work that they do. We fell
into the trap that George Osborne
set for us when he wanted local
councils run by Labour to be
vilified because they had to
distribute his cut. You fall into
that trap if we start kind of
allowing the Labour Party at a local
level to be torn apart because we
are kind of vilifying Labour
politicians for decisions they take.
When you are in power, sometimes you
have difficult choices to make and I
think what's gone on and when I have
read the coverage I feel like we are
falling into at times a trap set for
us by the Tories. In the end, the
Labour Party is a family. It takes
all sorts. We kind of, we have, we
let everybody have their view, but
we shouldn't behaving the
negativity, we should be getting
behind our Labour councils and
having a really good election into
May because we've got a massive
chance to send a big message to the
If that's what is happening,
you are falling into the trap set to
you by the Conservatives?
trap is winning three million extra
votes in the general election and
eight points ahead of the Tories in
the polls, again I want that trap to
get even worse. If that's what it
looks like. One sec, this is about
democratic correlation in the Labour
Party. It is observable. I would say
actually this is instrumentally
vital to a reinvigorated party
membership who feel agency, who
knock on the doors, who work so hard
that we saw in the run up to 8th
June and that has to continue if
Labour are to continue making
have, haven't they?
We had a great
performance in June and we had
people who come from all different
parts of the party working hard
together and it was brilliant. There
was a massive Brexit impact. There
was a lot of people who never voted
Labour before and voted Labour in my
patch because they wanted to send a
message to the Tories over Brexit.
The question is though, do we use
the local elections into May as a
chance to send the message to the
Tories as a chance to demonstrate
Labour's values on the doorstep or
do we spend our time, you know,
having a go at people who have to
make really hard decisions.
what's happening here? Are they
having a go?
Having read the
coverage over the weekend that's
what seems to be happening and I
would rather judge people by what
they do and how the commitment that
they have shown to their people
locally rather than there being sort
of like either Momentum or you are
this or that.
Is David Lammy a
David Lammy is a
brilliant Labour MP and somebody
that I've worked with.
He backs the
What I would ask
everybody in the Labour Party to do
is treat everybody with respect and
dignity. Look at somebody's whole
record, not just on one thing they
might say or whatever, look at their
whole record and judge them by what
they do. Put the Labour Party
together and don't rip it apart.
That's the accusation that you're
ripping the Labour Party apart. Is
it right that Momentum is taking
control of the party?
won over 50% of the vote both times
with the membership the first time
just under. Now what we are seeing
is that base of support is now
finding democratic reflection within
the elected offices of the party. We
are beginning with councillors.
There is nothing wrong with that.
Liz Kendall the progress candidate
in 2015 got 4.5% of the vote. I have
no problem with progress having 4.5%
of Labour's councillors. The point
is the values and the objectives
need to be of the membership need to
be reflected in our holders of
You want candidates
that reflect Momentum's objectives?
We have a first past the post system
and liberals and Social Democrats
and democratic socialists have to
work together under that system.
you think people like you and who
support your objectives are being
pushed out of the party?
Labour Party is like my family. I
will be in the Labour Party or no
party. That's everything that I've
grown up with and known and I
Do you not accept what is
being said that now people need to
reflect the views of the membership
and the candidates and councillors
Well, all our members have
different views about different
things and the thing I object to
here is the division of people into
two groups, you are either that or
you're that. You're Momentum or
you're not. It doesn't really work
like that. Hang on a second. People
have got different views about
different things and you shouldn't
judge people based on one fact or
who they voted for in a leadership
election that was two years ago.
Hang on, I think that's, I think
that's really foolish and I think it
is divisive. I think what we need is
to have the priorities of the
British people and I tell you what's
a ka catastrophe. What is a
catastrophe is not what some group
in the Labour Party is doing, what
is a catastrophe is this Tory
Now, they ruin lives,
blight communities and lead to more
than 2,500 deaths a year
in England and Wales.
But what's the best way of tackling
the scourge of illegal drugs?
Last month our guest
of the day, Crispin Blunt,
encouraged Theresa May
to consider de-criminalisation.
On the whole issue of prohibition
of drugs globally, can
I draw her attention to the fact
that global policy is beginning
to change and in the face
of the evidential failure
of the policy since the 1961 UN
single convention on prohibition
of narcotics drugs and will she look
at the evidence that's going
to emerge from the United States
and Canada on the legalisation
of regulation of cannabis markets
there as well as decriminalisation
in Portugal and elsewhere?
I do just have to say
to my honourable friend that I take
a different opinion from him
in relation to drugs.
I think that those who are dealing
with people who have been affected
by drugs would also do so.
I think of my constituent
Elizabeth Burton-Phillips who set-up
DrugFAM after the suicide of her son
who was a drug addict.
The work she is doing with families
who are affected because a member
of the family is on drugs
and the incredible damage that
that can do to families
and to the individual concerned.
I'm sorry I say to my honourable
friend, I take a different view.
I think it's right that we continue
to fight the war against drugs.
We're joined now by Peter Hitchens
who is an ardent opponent
Welcome to the programme. Just
before I come to you, Crispin Blunt
you asked the Prime Minister to look
at evidence from Portugal. What's
the strongest bit of evidence from
Portugal what decrim
nationalingised as far as the users
are concerned. People right at the
bottom of the drug chain as it were.
And what they are finding is that
the public health impact you might
have expected by relaxing the law as
it applied to people who were then
found consuming drugs hasn't led to
a massive increase in drug
consumption. Indeed, as far as
deaths from opiate use are
concerned, those numbers have gone
in a positive direction and talk to
Portuguese politicians who have been
responsible, they are proud of the
changes they have made in Portugal.
It has taken, it meant their public
health position is better than it
was before they made the changes. It
is only a very small part of a wider
Do you take that
evidence from the Portuguese model?
Anyone can look at my blog which has
been over rated by propagandists
from decriminalisation. It has not
been like the great success.
Portugal had feeble drug laws and
usage of some drugs increased. The
real place to look at is England
where the decriminal identitiesation
of drugs has been continuing in this
country since 1974ish at an amazing
rate, but never officially
acknowledged which has been an
decriminalising the drugs reverse
the trend of 2500 people dying from
the illegal use of drugs in the UK
in 2016, up from the previous year
for the fourth year in a row?
Because there are groups, whilst the
Prime Minister quoted one lady who
is a constituent who set up DrugFAM
there are other organisations
so-called Anyone's Child. Their
children have gone off to concerts
or discos and whatever and have used
ecstasy, as a lot of our young
people do when they go to these
places. Ecstasy is criminally
supplied. They don't know what's in
it it and their child died and the
issue is, if we stay with the
current position, the supply of all
these drugs remains in the hands of
criminals. How do we get to a place
where we can regulate and control
what people are going to put into
You are simply spouting, the
evidence is of cures these drugs are
damaging, that legalising them
doesn't make them any less damaging,
the common one tab co-and alcohol,
they are still dangerous to those
who use them, they are very much the
subject of criminal acts, so both
main planks of the argument are
feeble. What you really must
understand, Mr Blunt is
decriminalisation has taken place in
this country. In 1994 John O'Connor,
a former head of the Flying Squad
shade that cannabis was a
decriminalised drug. The damage it
does is not killing people, but it
is increasingly correlated with
serious irreversible mental illness,
there is a cynical greed campaign,
which seeks now to go to the Nketiah
stage. The realisation, advertise,
sale in supermarkets and more and
more people and their families
suffering permanent misery. ? You
say there would be health
Our cannabis is supplied by
criminals and 90% is street cannabis
is therefore, the cannabis that is
most strongly linked to mental
illness and psychosis.
He has a good
point in that respect.
Of course it
How do you make it
better health wise?
In you were in a
position where you know what you are
getting, because it is legally
supplied and it is regulated and
licensed and regular lated to
whatever standard is appropriate.
How can, do you get this stuff slfs
this comes out a Christmas cracker.
You haven't answered my point.
talk over each other.
regulated, are they safe?
Tobacco is not a safe thing to
Hang on, answer the point.
Gentleman, if you talk over each
other no-one can hear. You will get
a word in. If we look at the example
of Portugal, when they
decriminalised the possession of
drugs HIV infection and drug-related
deaths did drop. .
drug problem I said was not very
great. By comparison with some other
country, my point is not about
deaths and drug use, my point, most
particularly about the billionaire
backed hugely financed campaign, to
which Mr Blunt has fallen victim to
legalise this drug so people can
make enormous out of drugs.
a different work. .
Let me let Alison in.
think this is is a regrettable way
to have a serious discussion, I
think that, because you keep
interrupting and it has become an
attack on Crispin whose position I
don't entirely agree with to be
honest with you, I would prefer us
to look objectivity at the science,
to marry that with ambition, for
good mental health which we are
failing to fund, and decent proper
policing by consent, which we are
failing to fund F we continue to
throw rocks at each other we will
never get to a proper policy.
you just ignoring what are health
benefits that have been pointed out.
You take a different view. Will it
help deal with the scourge of drug
I am pointing out the major
threat from cannabis, you support,
regulation. And we are going to see
from the results of the Dan moving
to this place.
I was asking a
question. I don't want yet another
Let me from seed to
my panel. Panel. You are
interrupting me. He is in favour of
being, as he is claiming it is
dangerous, I would agree it is, one
of the reasons it is more dangerous
than it needs to be because it is
surprised by criminals who don't
give a monkey about the efengt it
has on people. What I want to do at
the evidence that is going to merge
and look at the evidence of the
danger, the criminalisation of this
half a tri$tria year has done to
states like member co-and so on,
this goes wider,th a global issue.
It has passed a -- criminals who
fight and kill people in order to
maintain their market share. There
is a better and safer way of doing
Shouldn't it be considered.
Even giving young people a criminal
record for possessing can bit can
ruin their lives, is it worth it.
course it can, that is the idea of
having a law against cannabis
possession to deter people from
having anything to do with a drug
that can ruin their lives and has
ruined the lives of many young
people and their families. Which is
what it does. You are interrupting
Should alcohol be banned.
studio late. If it was being abused
now. I would be in favour of
pretending -- preventing it.
That is all I get?
It was quite
It was worth fighting for
what I got.
Now, it's Philip Hammond's birthday
and if his friends and family
were listening to his Budget last
month then perhaps they should have
bought him a new car -
a driverless one.
He's a big fan of the emerging
technology and he's said he wants
to see "fully driverless cars"
on Britain's roads by 2021.
But the motoring journalist
Quentin Wilson thinks that could be
an unrealistic ambition.
Here's his soapbox.
Driverless cars on Britain's
roads in four years?
Sounds a bit ambitious.
Let's park that vision for a moment,
and ask the question,
where are we right now?
Autonomous technology ranges
from what's called level one,
which is things like electronic
distance control that we have now,
all the way up to level five,
where the machines drive better
than the humans.
We don't have that yet,
but we do have this.
The Tesla Model S, which is level
two, and there are thousands
of these on British roads right now.
This car has auto-braking,
It will change lanes on motorways
itself, and it will even
have a summon function.
Your garage door opens and this
car will automatically
come and find you.
It's great, but it's not level five,
where there's no steering wheel
and no human input at all.
That comes a few
years down the line.
The Government is absolutely right
to encourage this industry,
because it creates millions of jobs,
saves us all that tedious
driving time and could cut
accidents by as much as 80%.
But politicians need to be
careful they're not raising
There's the legislation to sort out,
there's the infrastructure,
so don't go making promises that
neither they nor the car
industry can keep yet.
And also I'd recommend that they go
out and actually drive some
autonomous cars themselves.
Autonomous cars, then,
are definitely coming,
but it might be a bit premature
to trade the Escort in quite yet.
Every car manufacturer
is working on them.
They're all trying to get
to that goal of level five.
Who wouldn't want a Brave New World
where machines do all the driving?
HG Wells would be proud and he would
absolutely love this Tesla.
And Quentin Wilson joins us now.
Is too late. If it was being abused
now. I would be in favour of
pretending -- preventing it. Thank
That is all I get?
It was quite
It was worth fighting for
what I got.
Is it terrifying the thought of no
hands on the steering wheel?
driving that was wonderful, because
you know, we have to a stage where
the thing drives itself, how ever,
we are not at the stage where we can
have cars that drive themselves
without human intervention by 2021.
Is that not possible?
No, it is
laughable. You are overpromising and
they are confused with the diesel
gate. They have lost billions in
depreciation we are destabilising
the car market. I am in favour of
Britain being at the centre. We have
to do it in a measured way. 37
million drivers don't know what to
do. Here is the dark side of this.
If we carry on pushing consumers
towards this brave New World that
doesn't exist yet, we are going to
cause a credit, a subprime credit
crash in car, because they are all
on what is known as personal
contract plans, this could cause a
real collapse in residual value, it
could affect the banks.
What if he
promised something that is
We are talking about
He said by 2021 he wanted
to see them on the road.
prototype. I don't imagine we will
be rolling round in driverless cars
That isn't going to happen.
But, Quentin is right.
The UK needs
to be in this place, in this
technology, it is playing with
technology of the future, we have to
get the timescale right. And
plainly, the car I have and the cars
everyone has won't depreciate in
Are you excited by the idea.
I am generally excited by new
technology, there is an issue in
that in politics we saw off from
like news cycle attention deficit in
that we want to make newsy
industry, what people need is more
kind of steady progress, so that we
should be opening up, what we will
do about regulation and investment,
over a much longer period. Actually
over the timescale of one
Government, so we should be having
much longer timescale gus pot ticks
we are bad at that. Terrible.
look at the legal issues for you
talked about the infrastructure,
what about the legal issues, whose
fault is it if there is a crash?
That is the thing that the Select
Committee was trying to work out you
will have to have a network that is
responsible because the Geneva
Convention say you have to have a
driver behind the wheel. We have to
change that. The whole thing is the
fact you have no human input. You
won't get to that goal. We are not
going to get it in the short time. I
will be ten years before we get
How much money should be
spent on it to make it happen?
will need to ask someone who is more
expert. Plainly this is an area if
you have a big budget for the
country which we have and our
science budget has been increasing
despite the demands on public
expenditure, there is an area the UK
should be in.
We saw cuts to stamp
duty that will go to people who...
Is that zero sum game.
accrues to people who own homes, the
reason I mention it. If we look at R
and D and investment. What the
Tories have done, is tax breaks and
not build up an investment fund that
says we have a massive wealth
inequality. Why don't we look at the
We will have to finish it
We have had a tweet from Donald
Tusk, he is feeling optimistic, tell
me why I like Mondays he say, mist
quoting the boom on the rats. --
boom town rats. Gets closer to
sufficient progress at December. He
is feeling positive.
He is feeling positive.
That's all for today.
Thanks to our guests.
The One O'Clock News is starting
over on BBC One now.
I'll be here at noon
tomorrow with all the big
political stories of the day,
do join me then.
Labour's Alison McGovern and Crispin Blunt from the Conservatives join Jo Coburn throughout the programme. They look at the likelihood of a deal in the Brexit negotiations and speak to the SNP's Stephen Gethins about their amendments to the EU Withdrawal Bill. Peter Hitchens discusses whether the laws on drugs should be changed and Quentin Willson talks about the prospect of driverless cars.