04/12/2017 Daily Politics


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04/12/2017

Labour's Alison McGovern and Crispin Blunt from the Conservatives join Jo Coburn throughout the programme, with Stephen Gethins, Peter Hitchens and Quentin Willson.


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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May is in Brussels

for a crunch lunch with the EU

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Commission president.

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They're talking up

prospects of a deal,

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but has the Prime Minister given too

much ground to the EU to get there?

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June's election cemented Jeremy

Corbyn's position as Labour leader.

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Are his supporters now seizing

the Momentum with a full-scale

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takeover of the party?

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Illegal drugs cause misery,

blight communities and lead to more

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than 2,500 deaths a year,

but is de-criminalising them really

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the answer to tackling the scourge?

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Philip Hammond wants driverless cars

on Britain's roads by 2022,

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but will the rules of the road

or the technology be ready?

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The politicians need to be careful

they are not raising

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everybody's expectations.

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There is the legislation to sort

out, there is the infrastructure,

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so don't go making promises that

neither they nor the car

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industry can keep yet.

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All that in the next hour in this

fully automated fourth generation

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driverless Daily Politics!

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What could possibly go wrong?

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Braving the backseat today,

Labour's Alison McGovern

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and the Conservative MP,

Crispin Blunt.

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First this morning, the Metropolitan

Police Commissioner, Cressida Dick,

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has suggested there could be

prosecutions after details

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were leaked by a former police

officer of a nine-year-old

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investigation into Conservative

MP, Damian Green.

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He was a Shadow Home Office

Minister at the time.

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Now he's Theresa May's

de-facto deputy.

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He strenuously denies allegations

that he accessed pornography

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on his parliamentary computer

as well as claims of

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inappropriate behaviour

towards a female journalist.

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A Cabinet Office investigation

into Mr Green's conduct is due to be

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handed to Theresa May this week.

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Do you think the police officers,

retired police officers have

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breached the code of conduct?

I

think plainly and it is what

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Cressida Dick said it is beyond the

pale and they are going to

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investigate what the implications

are of what happened. This is

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terribly important for confidence in

the police. To have people in a

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place where information is held by

police officers until they retire

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and might be put in the public

domain, what would you be wanting to

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co-operate with the police for if

you thought you could be in that

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place? This is very important and

Cressida Dick's direction is

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welcome.

She has not been clear as

to what should happen to the police

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officers. Should there be

prosecutions.

We want ACPO to have a

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look at this. Cressida Dick has

given a steer. We may have to look

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if legislation is necessary if there

is a gap in the law.

They may have

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thought they were doing the right

thing and it was in the public

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interest. Whistle-blowing?

If you

are going to breach your duty of

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confidentiality, do we need to make

sure what the public interest test

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that's got to be satisfied is. It

can't be a matter of your opinion

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because you think it's OK, that that

becomes all right. It needs to be

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much clearer than that.

Cabinet

Minister just teen Greening said

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watching pornography at work was not

acceptable. Do you think it should

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be a disciplinary offence?

Well, I

think, you know, we have to put

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ourselves in the position of, you

know, anybody in an ordinary

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workplace and I think Justine makes

fair and reasonable point there. The

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fact is, there is an investigation

going on and I think everybody is

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probably best served if that

investigation is allowed to be

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concluded, but these issues about

policing and confidence are really

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important. I have spent a long time

working with the Hillsborough

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families. This is not just something

that affects politicians, actually,

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it affects all of us if we don't

have confidence in both the police

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and the process of what happens if

something goes wrong.

Right, what

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about Damian Green? I mean, there

will be some and there are some in

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fact who think he should fall on his

sword and do the decent thing?

It is

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only because he is subject to the

investigations. Now, I agree with

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Alison, we need to let the

investigations and the inquiries

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take their course. That's the proper

way of behaving and people have got

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to take a view at the end of that

process.

Should the Cabinet Office

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inquiry be made public so we can

make a judgment for ourselves?

That

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will be a judgment that Theresa May

will have to make.

Should it be

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public?

I'm happy, it's a report to

her, I'm happy to let her make that

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judgment. She is in a place to make

the judgment. Obviously, the default

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position was that it should be made

public.

No doubt others like the

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liaison committee e for example, the

committee chairs will scrutinise her

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over it in the way they do

everything.

All right.

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As we speak, Theresa May

is in Brussels, meeting first

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with European Commission President

Jean-Claude Juncker and chief Brexit

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negotiator Michel Barnier.

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Later today she'll sit

down with Donald Tusk,

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President of the European Council.

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The diplomatic blitz is geared

toward trying to secure the outlines

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of a deal on the UK's withdrawal

from the EU ahead of a crucial

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summit in less than two weeks

where the leaders of the other 27

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countries will decide if sufficient

progress has been made

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to move on to trade talks.

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So what might Theresa May

and the EU's leading figures be

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discussing right now?

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The EU 27 has always

said sufficient progress

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is necessary in three areas.

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The so-called divorce bill,

citizens' rights after Brexit

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and how to maintain the open border

between Northern Ireland

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and the Republic.

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The BBC understands that this

weekend a broad agreement has been

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made on the divorce bill the UK

will pay - thought to be between 40

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and 50 billion euros.

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And on EU citizens'

rights in the UK.

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But there is still the potential

that the Irish Government could veto

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moving on to trade talks

because it's concerned

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about the future of the border

between North and South.

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They want a written guarantees

from the British Government that

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there'll be no hard border and no

future change to regulations

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on either side.

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Of course, it's not only leaders

of the EU 27 who could make life

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difficult for Theresa May.

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The DUP, whose votes give

the Prime Minister her parliamentary

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majority, say they'll

withdraw their support

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if the Government attempts

to "placate Dublin and the EU"

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by treating Northern Ireland

differently to the rest of the UK.

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And on her own backbenches,

some long-standing Brexit supporters

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like John Redwood and Owen

Paterson, affiliated

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with the group Leave Means Leave,

have called on the Prime Minister

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to set out red lines over

money the UK will pay,

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and the jurisdiction

of the European Court

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of Justice after Brexit.

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Yesterday Health Secretary Jeremy

Hunt said the party must get behind

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Theresa May for without her,

there will be no Brexit.

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Well, earlier Brexit Secretary

David Davis was asked how confident

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he was that today's meetings

would lead to a green light to start

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trade talks in December.

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Well, obviously that's

what we're aiming to do.

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We've put seven months of work,

both sides, into getting to this

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point and we're hoping that

Mr Juncker today will give us

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sufficient progress so we can move

on to the trade talks.

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The decision, of course,

won't be taken until 15th December,

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but that's what we're hoping

for because trade talks

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are enormously important

to the United Kingdom and to Europe.

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David Davis there.

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Let's go to Belfast and talk to our

Ireland Correpsondent Chris Page.

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Chris, you have probably seen the

MEP has told the BBC that the UK is

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poised to accept a concession over

the Northern Irish border and there

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will be no regulatory divergence

between the north and south of

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Ireland. Does that mean that the

Northern Ireland will be treated

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differently to the rest of the UK?

Well, what Philip Lambert said to

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the BBC is consistent with a leak

that RTE, the Irish national

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broadcaster had of a document that's

in circulation in Brussels and it

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said that the absence of agreed

solutions on the border, the UK will

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ensure that there continues fob no

divergence from the rules of the

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internal market and Customs union

and it is understood, according to

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RTE that text was later changed to

slightly instead of no divergence,

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it spoke about continued regulatory

alignment on the island of Ireland.

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So, this really is all about whether

Northern Ireland at least will still

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continue to follow the same rules as

regards the movement of goods across

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as the Republic of Ireland and if

that was the case, well then yes the

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chances of the border being as open

as possible would remain high, but

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if there are any checks on movement

of goods, well you would see the

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return of some kind of border in

Ireland. Some visible sign of a

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border. So it's a very difficult

circle to square. As regards exactly

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how regulatory assignment would

work, well, there is regulations

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that apply to all sorts of things in

Ireland. People think that there is

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more than 140 areas of north/south

co-operation. That could be dozens

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of policy areas that would be

affected by regulations, everything

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from agriculture, food produce, to

pharmaceuticals. So, you're talking

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about a massive amount of policy

areas there and as regards the very

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basic debate seems to be had in the

negotiations all around regulatory

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alignment and regulatory

divergesance, it is that that

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everybody with a stake including the

Democratic Unionist Party, will be

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looking at to see if it is something

that will satisfy them.

Right. What

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do you think? They are critically

important in this, the Democratic

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Unionist Party. Will they buy the

wording that you have just outlined

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in terms of that draft agreement?

There has been no official reaction

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from them yet in public or in

private, but I should think they are

0:11:050:11:10

carefully considering everything

that's being discussed. They made

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clear they are loo the loop here and

they are just in the loop as regards

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the British Government keeping in

touch with them, but the Irish

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Government. So, I think, it's all

going to come down to whether or not

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if there is going to be some talk of

regulatory assignment whether that's

0:11:230:11:27

couched in a certain language and

maybe certain caveat that will able

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them to say, that doesn't mean that

Northern Ireland will be set apart

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in a major way. That is the DUP's

bottom line and in the past, they

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have said that no regulatory

divergence would mean it would be

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inevitable, there would be some kind

of checks between Northern Ireland

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and the rest of the UK. So they

wouldn't tolerate that, but it

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depends if there can be some kind of

softening of the language around

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that which means the DUP think it is

something that they can work with.

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Chris Page, thank you.

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And we can go live

to Brussels now to our

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Europe Correspondent Kevin Connolly.

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Intense activity at the weekend and

the feeling that 90% chance of talks

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moving on this month. Following on

from this draft text that's been

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leaked, do you think there is now

broad agreement even on the Irish

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border issue?

Well, there is a sense

that some form of words has been

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found which will keep everybody on

board for now. Don't forget, you

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don't have to solve or fix the Irish

border issue now, you just have to

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make a political declaration that

sufficient progress has been made.

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That's why you have had this couple

of days rather than reminiscent of

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the Irish peace process for people

who remember it, where you have got

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phraseology about no regulatory

divergence or continued regulatory

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alignment and what's the difference

between those two? You are looking

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for elastic phraseology that will

somehow keep everybody happy for

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now. I think that's do-able and I

think the Irish Government, while in

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theory, it has a veto on the move to

trade talks, would be highly

0:13:020:13:06

reluctant to be put into a position

where it appeared to be using that

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veto. So I think, sufficient

progress is within reach on the

0:13:100:13:14

Irish border. We're told it's done

on money. There are outstanding

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issues on citizens rights, the

European Parliament representative

0:13:190:13:24

who apparently didn't see the

headlines about the 85 to 90% has

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been talking about a 50/50 chance of

a deal today. There are still things

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he wants on citizens rights for

those Europeans hold be left in the

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UK after Brexit and he is still, I

suppose, looking for concessions and

0:13:370:13:41

just as the Irish Government

obviously saw this as its moment of

0:13:410:13:46

maximum opportunity, maximum

leverage in the process, I think

0:13:460:13:48

there is a feeling in Brussels that

the British side is pretty desperate

0:13:480:13:52

for a move to trade talks a and that

more concessions might be there to

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be had. So it will be a big day

here. Will it be the definitive one?

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I think there is a good chance that

the UK will get that move to trade.

0:14:000:14:03

Kevin Connolly, thank you very much.

0:14:030:14:12

Crispin Blunt are you confident

there will be a deal in two weeks?

0:14:120:14:15

I'm hopeful. I don't think the EU

representative doesn't have a veto.

0:14:150:14:21

The European Parliament has a veto

at the end of the process.

Do you

0:14:210:14:25

think Britain can move on to phase

two, trade talks?

I can't believe

0:14:250:14:30

that the Irish Government are going

to commit Harry Curie by setting up

0:14:300:14:36

a situation of putting the British

Government in a position to try to

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agree something which it couldn't

possibly compromise on which is

0:14:390:14:43

creating some border down the Irish

Sea.

So they will concede in terms

0:14:430:14:47

of having this alignment?

The Irish

will find their way and the

0:14:470:14:52

elasticity of language will be

offered to them and relying on the

0:14:520:14:55

good intentions of the UK Government

to make sure that this border at the

0:14:550:14:59

end of this process is as soft as it

can be. It is not in our gift, it is

0:14:590:15:04

in the gift of the 27 about the

depth of the trade deal they give

0:15:040:15:08

us.

Are you confident this is the

point at which the Government can

0:15:080:15:13

see the next phase coming into view?

0:15:130:15:18

In the end at the moment, the Brexit

problem is consuming far too much of

0:15:180:15:22

Government and we can't get on to

deal with the things that people

0:15:220:15:26

want us to, like sorting out the

Health Service and schools. I take

0:15:260:15:31

issue with the idea that somehow,

the Irish Government have created

0:15:310:15:36

this problem, because we have been

asking in Parliament for the UK

0:15:360:15:41

Government to tell us what they want

for the border between Northern

0:15:410:15:45

Ireland and the republic.

They have

said an invisible border to

0:15:450:15:49

continue.

There but not there. We

can't do that until we know that the

0:15:490:15:54

deal is.

The key point we have

discovered today is that in the end

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the language is important because

you have to keep people onboard and

0:15:580:16:02

you have to be diplomatic, but it

comes down to what are our policies

0:16:020:16:05

going to be? We have got to decide,

do we want to really move away from

0:16:050:16:10

the European model or we want to

stick with it. If we are prepared to

0:16:100:16:15

stick with it there will be a deal

available. I worry about Theresa May

0:16:150:16:18

being dragged off to one side by the

hard right in her party and Nigel

0:16:180:16:23

Farage dictating what the Brexit

should look like, rather than having

0:16:230:16:27

the common-sense to stick with the

mod that will we, has worked for us.

0:16:270:16:31

It will look like what the 27 are

prepared to negotiate with us.

So

0:16:310:16:35

Britain doesn't have a vision or a

view.

We want a deep free trade

0:16:350:16:40

agreement and we would like it to be

as deep in service as it St in

0:16:400:16:44

goods. It is unLukely I think our

European colleagues are going to

0:16:440:16:48

concede that because that is the

only area we run a trade surplus in.

0:16:480:16:54

It has come as a massive cost.

Let

us cut that down. Half is related to

0:16:540:17:00

the trans pan situation period which

would be our normal run of subsidies

0:17:000:17:05

S

You don't see it as a big cost?

The number doesn't come as a

0:17:050:17:10

surprise to me, if you have the

additional liabilities outside the

0:17:100:17:15

normal run of businesses, the future

leash, it seems about... --

0:17:150:17:20

liabilities.

Why did Boris Johnson

say go whistle on the money?

Because

0:17:200:17:25

at that stage numbers were being put

into the suggested at the order of

0:17:250:17:31

60 to 100 billion. That is, and so

effectively that would be 40-80

0:17:310:17:37

billion' the 20 that Theresa May may

clear -- made clear was going to

0:17:370:17:41

be...

You accept there is a price to

pay.

Of course there is. The country

0:17:410:17:48

is making a big strategic... There

are going to be up front costs and

0:17:480:17:53

we want the good will of our

partners going forward.

Isn't the

0:17:530:17:57

movement of talks on the a trade

deal, the one thing that is probably

0:17:570:18:00

guaranteed to kill off a likelihood

of the UK staying in the single

0:18:000:18:05

market?

No.

Really?

In the general

election in June I spoke to

0:18:050:18:11

constituents who voted leave and

remain, I think we should stay in

0:18:110:18:15

the single market because that will

help us get a deal done. So it is

0:18:150:18:18

proving. In the end we have to

decide do we want to stick with the

0:18:180:18:24

terms of trade that we broadly had

as part of the European Union, and

0:18:240:18:28

say in the single market and keep

business going in our country, or do

0:18:280:18:32

we want to tear it up and take a

massive risk, and you know, offer

0:18:320:18:39

business massive uncertainty with

the consequences for income in our

0:18:390:18:43

taxes, I just don't think that

people really want that in this

0:18:430:18:46

country.

You say people don't really

want it, for people who vote for

0:18:460:18:52

Brexit who see a potential deal

where we don't accept free movement

0:18:520:18:58

of people, we aren't subject to EU

law they will think that is fine?

0:18:580:19:02

What is that potential deal? If what

we are talking about is regulatory

0:19:020:19:09

divergence, so if we say the

policies, rip them up, that

0:19:090:19:14

regulatory divergence, it creates

serious problems in terms of our

0:19:140:19:18

relationship with the EU, that

consequently causes problems for

0:19:180:19:23

business, and I don't think that is

really what people...

Has she got a

0:19:230:19:28

point there?

It doesn't

It doesn't

take too many seconds of implication

0:19:280:19:34

of staying in the single market to

realise that is not an option. If

0:19:340:19:38

you stay in the single market after

we have left the European Union you

0:19:380:19:41

continue to pay the money into the

budget, you don't have any say over

0:19:410:19:46

the development of regulations as

they continue to operate in the

0:19:460:19:50

single market that thereafter. That

is not a place that a country could

0:19:500:19:55

put itself in.

I don't see why. We

would be talking about new

0:19:550:20:01

arrangement for us and have to work

out how we were going to have

0:20:010:20:05

influence, absolutely, but there are

problems if we just leave, we have

0:20:050:20:11

basically a whole complicated big

industry like the chemicals

0:20:110:20:14

industry, like life sciences that

relies on the regulatory

0:20:140:20:18

arrangements we currently have. If

we are going to rip them up and

0:20:180:20:23

start again Andy verge from that

European model, we have to know how

0:20:230:20:27

those industries are going to carry

on.

It is a British objective to get

0:20:270:20:32

as close to that as possible, and

the terms of that agreement are

0:20:320:20:37

going to be determined by our 27

negotiating partners not by us, you

0:20:370:20:44

can't have a future arrangement

where by the, we will subject

0:20:440:20:48

ourselves by the rules, and to

continue to pay...

Any deal we make,

0:20:480:20:53

if we make a deal, a trade deal with

anybody, with the American, with the

0:20:530:20:58

Chinese, we will have to commit

ourselves to rules we are not

0:20:580:21:02

entirely in control of. That is what

trade deals do.

That is the position

0:21:020:21:08

we are in at the moment.

Hang on.

To

have no input. ...

So far, so far

0:21:080:21:15

what exactly has the EU conceded on.

Jeremy Hunt said it's a technical

0:21:150:21:22

point as to whether the UCE -- ECJ

has jurisdiction.

In the transition

0:21:220:21:32

period I can see a role for the ECJ,

beyond that our Supreme Court is

0:21:320:21:36

going to have to be the Supreme

Court in the United Kingdom.

But it

0:21:360:21:40

looks as if it will go further than

the transition period. Would you not

0:21:400:21:44

accept that?

Well, that would depend

if you had specific areas of

0:21:440:21:50

agreement, where you thought you

needed a body that is going to be

0:21:500:21:55

the decision maker, you might want

to consider whether the ECJ would be

0:21:550:21:59

appropriate and you could have

confidence in it. Those would be

0:21:590:22:04

individual decisions in narrow

areas.

In terms of after second

0:22:040:22:09

referendum, the you think there is

any situation in which Labour would

0:22:090:22:12

back one.

I am really off reference

darks and partly because of the

0:22:120:22:19

conduct of the EU referendum and

also, the division that the Scottish

0:22:190:22:24

independence referendum caused. What

I would like is a general election

0:22:240:22:28

and I would like my party to put

forward a strong, pro-European

0:22:280:22:34

vision that says that the social

model we have seen in Europe, where

0:22:340:22:39

you have markets that are

constrained by rules and regular

0:22:390:22:43

losings, that is why we will have a

different negotiating sense.

0:22:430:22:48

I would like us to put that forward

in a general election and test our

0:22:480:22:52

arguments with the public. Let us

leave it there.

0:22:520:22:55

Let us leave it there.

0:22:550:22:56

Now, if you thought all the Brexit

action was on the other side

0:22:560:23:00

of the North Sea today,

you'd be wrong.

0:23:000:23:01

The Withdrawal Bill is back

in the Commons and debate turns

0:23:010:23:04

to who will be "taking back control"

after Brexit - Westminster

0:23:040:23:07

or will the devolved

institutions in Edinburgh,

0:23:070:23:08

Cardiff and, once it's

up and running again,

0:23:080:23:10

Stormont have a bigger say?

0:23:100:23:12

Let's talk to the SNP's Stephen

Gethins who is in Central Lobby.

0:23:120:23:17

What are you cob sense about the way

the bill is drafted?

We have

0:23:170:23:22

concerns that those powers that are

are the responsibility of the

0:23:220:23:25

devolved administrations we were

told would be sent back to them

0:23:250:23:29

without touching the sides, are

coming back to Westminster, and

0:23:290:23:33

Westminster will be retaining

control of those, so as well as

0:23:330:23:37

taking back control from Brussels,

Westminster is taking back control

0:23:370:23:42

from Cardiff, Belfast or Edinburgh.

The attention is not on what the SNP

0:23:420:23:45

is demanding.

You are to some extent

a sideshow compared to what is

0:23:450:23:52

happening over moving on the trade

takes.

This is a big negotiation.

0:23:520:23:57

But just to correct you on

something. This isn't an SNP

0:23:570:24:04

amendment, it was drafted by the

Scottish Government and a Welsh

0:24:040:24:11

Government but also, which has been

packed by the greens and the Liberal

0:24:110:24:15

Democrats as well as Labour here at

Westminster as well. So this is a

0:24:150:24:23

pan institution, cross-party

amendment, to stop that power grab

0:24:230:24:25

that is going on as Westminster.

And

also an attempt to frustrate the

0:24:250:24:32

process of the UK leading the EU.

This is about representing the

0:24:320:24:38

devolution process, when we joined

the European Union, the devolved add

0:24:380:24:41

Miguel minute stranges weren't in

place, the UK is not the same state

0:24:410:24:45

as 40 years ago, what our amendment

does is to respect the state, if you

0:24:450:24:50

like, the state we are in just now.

This isn't something coming from the

0:24:500:24:55

House of Commons in this cross-party

group. This is something recognised

0:24:550:24:59

by the House of Lords, the law

society of Scotland and various

0:24:590:25:04

Evers as well. There is a hole at

the heart of this H it doesn't

0:25:040:25:09

rerespect the process. Our amendment

seek -- change that. Clause 11 of

0:25:090:25:17

the bill maintains the status quo.

It would prevent the admission stray

0:25:170:25:24

-- administrations from changing

laws. Why does it matter whether the

0:25:240:25:29

powers are at recommend if you are

not going to change them? This goes

0:25:290:25:33

to the heart of why people weren't

understanding the role of the EU. In

0:25:330:25:35

the role of the EU you can go over

there, negotiate. If they come back

0:25:350:25:39

to Westminster, on areas that are

devolved like fishing, farming

0:25:390:25:43

climate change, energy and these

raft of power, Westminster will be

0:25:430:25:47

making the decisions. We were told

we would get the powers back without

0:25:470:25:53

touching the sides. It keeps the

promise made during the referendum

0:25:530:25:59

as well.

What changes would you make

then?

We would want to see the

0:25:590:26:04

Scottish Government and the Welsh

Assembly and when it is up and

0:26:040:26:07

running the Northern Ireland as

well. Have a full role that knows...

0:26:070:26:13

What changes would you make?

The

change, what we would like to see is

0:26:130:26:17

we would like to see our amendments

being accepted which means the

0:26:170:26:23

Scottish Parliament would have to

agree and the common frameworks

0:26:230:26:30

would have to be agreed.

Fishing and

farming.

That is an important change

0:26:300:26:34

to be made and represents the state

we are in.

What about respecting

0:26:340:26:38

leave voters in places, in fishing

and farming communities, in places

0:26:380:26:42

in the north of Scotland where the

leave vote was the highest. Every

0:26:420:26:48

local authority area in Scotland

voted to remain. Including in my own

0:26:480:26:55

constituency. In all of these areas

what we want to see is respect what

0:26:550:27:02

Vote Leave promised so if they said

these powers would come back, this

0:27:020:27:08

is holding the Government and

holding the ministers in vote leave

0:27:080:27:13

to account for the promise they made

as much as they made to even else in

0:27:130:27:17

the UK. The UK Government is facing

pressure from the 13 Conservative

0:27:170:27:25

members so the Government will

ensure the powers are returned to

0:27:250:27:29

Holyrood and your colleague also

claim victory.

The Scottish

0:27:290:27:33

Conservatives with vote for the

amendment to us their Monday where

0:27:330:27:37

their mouth is, show they against

the power grab back to Westminster,

0:27:370:27:42

do what they were elected to do so

they can businessman them today.

In

0:27:420:27:50

terms of what happens now, once

these amendments have passed or not

0:27:500:27:57

you will lose leverage in terms of

pushing for further amendment.s. One

0:27:570:28:06

thing that the Conservative

Government has failed to grasp, we

0:28:060:28:11

have torque boy as cross-party

lines. That goes for the devolved

0:28:110:28:18

administration, devolution is a

process.

0:28:180:28:20

Thank you very much. Before we move

on, we have had a response from the

0:28:200:28:26

Democratic Unionist Party Sammy

Wilson this is about the regulatory

0:28:260:28:31

alignment talked about. They say it

would be vetoed at stompt. What do

0:28:310:28:36

you say to that. They could pull the

plug on this.

So the Conservative

0:28:360:28:42

would if it is put into a position

where we have to create new

0:28:420:28:47

boundaries between Northern Ireland

and Great Britain. We will be United

0:28:470:28:51

Kingdom at the start of this process

and UK young at the end. That is why

0:28:510:28:58

the Irish Government about where

they try to push the British

0:28:580:29:01

government, because if we are driven

up a cul-de-sac where the issues

0:29:010:29:07

are...

You wouldn't agree to

regulatory alignment yourself.

We

0:29:070:29:14

have to get into the area where

there, if you like sensible

0:29:140:29:20

elasticity of language that can get

us to a place where the good will in

0:29:200:29:24

the United Kingdom and in the

Republic of Ireland, to make the

0:29:240:29:27

border issue work at the end of the

process when we know what the deal

0:29:270:29:32

is, then all that good will will

kick in and we will make the mens of

0:29:320:29:36

what we are presented with.

Isn't it

true, this is the last stage, the

0:29:360:29:45

Irish Government can exert maximum

pressure.

This is the question. I

0:29:450:29:49

feel terrible, actually we have got

to this point and I think a lot of

0:29:490:29:53

people didn't think about Northern

Ireland until too late. That is an

0:29:530:29:56

incredible shame and those of us who

grew up under the shadow of what

0:29:560:30:01

happened in the past. You know

regret that deep. I -- wish the

0:30:010:30:12

Tories exerted it sooner and we

could have got this dealt with

0:30:120:30:17

clearly, we neat regulatory

alignment. That is clear, I wish we

0:30:170:30:20

could have said that ages ago and

reached out to our friend in Ireland

0:30:200:30:25

and sorted it out a long time ago.

Thank you.

0:30:250:30:28

Thank you.

0:30:280:30:29

Now, Labour grandee Roy Hattersley

wrote this weekend that the party

0:30:290:30:32

was facing the "greatest crisis

in its history".

0:30:320:30:34

The cause, he says,

is the infiltration of the group

0:30:340:30:36

Momentum, who have taken a number

of seats on the party's

0:30:360:30:39

organising committees.

0:30:390:30:40

They are now campaigning

for their preferred candidates to be

0:30:400:30:42

nominated as Labour council

candidates and in target

0:30:420:30:44

parliamentary seats,

angering many existing Labour

0:30:440:30:45

councillors who are facing

deselection as a result.

0:30:450:30:47

One of those who has already been

deselected is the Sheffield

0:30:470:30:50

councillor Kieran Harpham,

and he joins us now

0:30:500:30:52

from our studio there.

0:30:520:31:00

Welcome to the programme. Why were

you facing reselection?

It's a

0:31:000:31:07

process ke go through as local

councillors. Every time our seats

0:31:070:31:10

are up for election.

And were you

expecting to be opposed?

I think I

0:31:100:31:16

was expect, I think you always have

to expect some resistance to your

0:31:160:31:20

seat.

Tell us what happened?

So, I was

0:31:200:31:29

short listed with five, well, five

other candidates and two reserve

0:31:290:31:35

candidates. Two of those candidates

I was up against got seats in other

0:31:350:31:38

parts of the city and then I was up

against the five that were left and

0:31:380:31:47

we then had a reselection meeting

about three weeks later. In which I

0:31:470:31:53

unfortunately lost.

How did you feel

about it afterwards?

Unhappy

0:31:530:31:57

obviously. I mean it's a loss of a

job. It is a loss of a stable

0:31:570:32:01

income, but I'm young. I'm a young

bloke. I imagine I can get a

0:32:010:32:05

different job. I will be standing

again in future for a council seat

0:32:050:32:10

somewhere else if I can.

Were you

given a reason for your deselection?

0:32:100:32:15

It's not typically the way that we

would do it necessarily given any

0:32:150:32:20

particular reason. It's a democratic

process. I was, there was about 70

0:32:200:32:25

members in the room at the time. So,

you know, each one of them, I

0:32:250:32:29

wouldn't expect each one of them to

give me a specific reason as to why

0:32:290:32:33

they didn't vote for me.

Do you have

any idea as to why you might not

0:32:330:32:38

have been reselected?

I have had my

disagreements as we all do with

0:32:380:32:45

various members and members of the

party at times. You know, you can

0:32:450:32:54

have disagreements over various

things. The Labour Party is a broad

0:32:540:32:57

church and not all of us agree all

the time.

One person said it was

0:32:570:33:02

because you weren't left-wing

enough, what do you say to that?

I

0:33:020:33:09

don't agree with the fact I'm not

left-wing enough. I was brought up

0:33:090:33:15

in a working estate in Sheffield. I

wouldn't call myself not left-wing.

0:33:150:33:22

That's not true.

What do you think

is happening in the Labour Party at

0:33:220:33:25

the moment?

I think there is

something happening in the party at

0:33:250:33:31

the moment. I mean we have seen the

membership increase over the last

0:33:310:33:36

two years. But I don't necessarily,

you know, this is a thing that

0:33:360:33:39

happens from time to time. My dad

was a serving councillor for 15

0:33:390:33:44

years. He was deselected the first

time round and had to go and stand

0:33:440:33:48

somewhere else.

I was going to say thank you very

0:33:480:33:54

much for joining us today.

Cheers.

0:33:540:33:57

And here in the studio now

is Aaron Bastani of Novara Media

0:33:570:34:00

who is also a member of Momentum.

0:34:000:34:02

Alison McGovern was one of the those

to resign her shadow ministerial

0:34:020:34:05

post in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's

leadership in 2016.

0:34:050:34:08

Welcome to the programme.

Aaron, why

should a long-standing councillor be

0:34:080:34:15

replaced by someone who has only

been a Labour member for a couple of

0:34:150:34:19

years?

And long may it continue.

They had disagreements and he had

0:34:190:34:35

disagreements with

0:34:350:34:35

In Haringey there was a development

which has caused a lot of

0:34:410:34:46

consternation, local MPs are opposed

to it, you couldn't call those

0:34:460:34:51

radical left Wenger entourists and a

majority of the local community and

0:34:510:34:57

are opposed, that has meant a number

of councillors have chosen not to

0:34:570:35:03

rerun or have not been reselected.

It is specific on local issues and

0:35:030:35:07

by the way, there are people like

Vincent Carol who signed alert in

0:35:070:35:13

2016 against Jeremy Corbyn, he has

not been reselected because he has

0:35:130:35:19

an anti-DV position.

0:35:190:35:24

Is this democracy in action?

We

should be talking about the need of

0:35:240:35:28

Local Government to have proper

adult social care and do all the

0:35:280:35:32

important work that they do. We fell

into the trap that George Osborne

0:35:320:35:40

set for us when he wanted local

councils run by Labour to be

0:35:400:35:44

vilified because they had to

distribute his cut. You fall into

0:35:440:35:47

that trap if we start kind of

allowing the Labour Party at a local

0:35:470:35:51

level to be torn apart because we

are kind of vilifying Labour

0:35:510:36:01

politicians for decisions they take.

When you are in power, sometimes you

0:36:010:36:04

have difficult choices to make and I

think what's gone on and when I have

0:36:040:36:07

read the coverage I feel like we are

falling into at times a trap set for

0:36:070:36:12

us by the Tories. In the end, the

Labour Party is a family. It takes

0:36:120:36:15

all sorts. We kind of, we have, we

let everybody have their view, but

0:36:150:36:23

we shouldn't behaving the

negativity, we should be getting

0:36:230:36:26

behind our Labour councils and

having a really good election into

0:36:260:36:29

May because we've got a massive

chance to send a big message to the

0:36:290:36:33

Tories.

If that's what is happening,

you are falling into the trap set to

0:36:330:36:39

you by the Conservatives?

If the

trap is winning three million extra

0:36:390:36:44

votes in the general election and

eight points ahead of the Tories in

0:36:440:36:47

the polls, again I want that trap to

get even worse. If that's what it

0:36:470:36:52

looks like. One sec, this is about

democratic correlation in the Labour

0:36:520:37:02

Party. It is observable. I would say

actually this is instrumentally

0:37:020:37:10

vital to a reinvigorated party

membership who feel agency, who

0:37:100:37:13

knock on the doors, who work so hard

that we saw in the run up to 8th

0:37:130:37:18

June and that has to continue if

Labour are to continue making

0:37:180:37:22

outstanding improvements.

And they

have, haven't they?

We had a great

0:37:220:37:26

performance in June and we had

people who come from all different

0:37:260:37:30

parts of the party working hard

together and it was brilliant. There

0:37:300:37:34

was a massive Brexit impact. There

was a lot of people who never voted

0:37:340:37:37

Labour before and voted Labour in my

patch because they wanted to send a

0:37:370:37:40

message to the Tories over Brexit.

The question is though, do we use

0:37:400:37:45

the local elections into May as a

chance to send the message to the

0:37:450:37:48

Tories as a chance to demonstrate

Labour's values on the doorstep or

0:37:480:37:52

do we spend our time, you know,

having a go at people who have to

0:37:520:37:57

make really hard decisions.

Is that

what's happening here? Are they

0:37:570:38:01

having a go?

Having read the

coverage over the weekend that's

0:38:010:38:05

what seems to be happening and I

would rather judge people by what

0:38:050:38:08

they do and how the commitment that

they have shown to their people

0:38:080:38:13

locally rather than there being sort

of like either Momentum or you are

0:38:130:38:19

this or that.

Is David Lammy a

momentum flunky

David Lammy is a

0:38:190:38:29

brilliant Labour MP and somebody

that I've worked with.

He backs the

0:38:290:38:38

anti-DVHD lobby.

What I would ask

everybody in the Labour Party to do

0:38:380:38:42

is treat everybody with respect and

dignity. Look at somebody's whole

0:38:420:38:46

record, not just on one thing they

might say or whatever, look at their

0:38:460:38:50

whole record and judge them by what

they do. Put the Labour Party

0:38:500:38:53

together and don't rip it apart.

That's the accusation that you're

0:38:530:38:59

ripping the Labour Party apart. Is

it right that Momentum is taking

0:38:590:39:06

control of the party?

Jeremy Corbyn

won over 50% of the vote both times

0:39:060:39:10

with the membership the first time

just under. Now what we are seeing

0:39:100:39:13

is that base of support is now

finding democratic reflection within

0:39:130:39:19

the elected offices of the party. We

are beginning with councillors.

0:39:190:39:23

There is nothing wrong with that.

Liz Kendall the progress candidate

0:39:230:39:28

in 2015 got 4.5% of the vote. I have

no problem with progress having 4.5%

0:39:280:39:33

of Labour's councillors. The point

is the values and the objectives

0:39:330:39:37

need to be of the membership need to

be reflected in our holders of

0:39:370:39:41

public office.

You want candidates

that reflect Momentum's objectives?

0:39:410:39:49

We have a first past the post system

and liberals and Social Democrats

0:39:490:39:55

and democratic socialists have to

work together under that system.

Do

0:39:550:39:57

you think people like you and who

support your objectives are being

0:39:570:40:01

pushed out of the party?

No, the

Labour Party is like my family. I

0:40:010:40:04

will be in the Labour Party or no

party. That's everything that I've

0:40:040:40:10

grown up with and known and I

think...

Do you not accept what is

0:40:100:40:14

being said that now people need to

reflect the views of the membership

0:40:140:40:18

and the candidates and councillors

do too?

Well, all our members have

0:40:180:40:24

different views about different

things and the thing I object to

0:40:240:40:27

here is the division of people into

two groups, you are either that or

0:40:270:40:30

you're that. You're Momentum or

you're not. It doesn't really work

0:40:300:40:34

like that. Hang on a second. People

have got different views about

0:40:340:40:38

different things and you shouldn't

judge people based on one fact or

0:40:380:40:41

who they voted for in a leadership

election that was two years ago.

0:40:410:40:45

Hang on, I think that's, I think

that's really foolish and I think it

0:40:450:40:49

is divisive. I think what we need is

to have the priorities of the

0:40:490:40:52

British people and I tell you what's

a ka catastrophe. What is a

0:40:520:41:00

catastrophe is not what some group

in the Labour Party is doing, what

0:41:000:41:07

is a catastrophe is this Tory

Government.

0:41:070:41:11

Now, they ruin lives,

blight communities and lead to more

0:41:110:41:13

than 2,500 deaths a year

in England and Wales.

0:41:130:41:15

But what's the best way of tackling

the scourge of illegal drugs?

0:41:150:41:19

Last month our guest

of the day, Crispin Blunt,

0:41:190:41:21

encouraged Theresa May

to consider de-criminalisation.

0:41:210:41:24

On the whole issue of prohibition

of drugs globally, can

0:41:240:41:26

I draw her attention to the fact

that global policy is beginning

0:41:260:41:29

to change and in the face

of the evidential failure

0:41:290:41:32

of the policy since the 1961 UN

single convention on prohibition

0:41:320:41:34

of narcotics drugs and will she look

at the evidence that's going

0:41:340:41:38

to emerge from the United States

and Canada on the legalisation

0:41:380:41:41

of regulation of cannabis markets

there as well as decriminalisation

0:41:410:41:44

in Portugal and elsewhere?

0:41:440:41:51

I do just have to say

to my honourable friend that I take

0:41:510:41:54

a different opinion from him

in relation to drugs.

0:41:540:42:01

I think that those who are dealing

with people who have been affected

0:42:010:42:04

by drugs would also do so.

0:42:040:42:05

I think of my constituent

Elizabeth Burton-Phillips who set-up

0:42:050:42:09

DrugFAM after the suicide of her son

who was a drug addict.

0:42:090:42:13

The work she is doing with families

who are affected because a member

0:42:130:42:18

of the family is on drugs

and the incredible damage that

0:42:180:42:21

that can do to families

and to the individual concerned.

0:42:210:42:25

I'm sorry I say to my honourable

friend, I take a different view.

0:42:250:42:28

I think it's right that we continue

to fight the war against drugs.

0:42:280:42:33

We're joined now by Peter Hitchens

who is an ardent opponent

0:42:340:42:37

of de-criminalisation.

0:42:370:42:40

Welcome to the programme. Just

before I come to you, Crispin Blunt

0:42:400:42:44

you asked the Prime Minister to look

at evidence from Portugal. What's

0:42:440:42:46

the strongest bit of evidence from

there?

Portugal what decrim

0:42:460:42:52

nationalingised as far as the users

are concerned. People right at the

0:42:520:42:56

bottom of the drug chain as it were.

And what they are finding is that

0:42:560:43:00

the public health impact you might

have expected by relaxing the law as

0:43:000:43:03

it applied to people who were then

found consuming drugs hasn't led to

0:43:030:43:08

a massive increase in drug

consumption. Indeed, as far as

0:43:080:43:12

deaths from opiate use are

concerned, those numbers have gone

0:43:120:43:17

in a positive direction and talk to

Portuguese politicians who have been

0:43:170:43:21

responsible, they are proud of the

changes they have made in Portugal.

0:43:210:43:24

It has taken, it meant their public

health position is better than it

0:43:240:43:27

was before they made the changes. It

is only a very small part of a wider

0:43:270:43:31

discussion.

Do you take that

evidence from the Portuguese model?

0:43:310:43:37

Anyone can look at my blog which has

been over rated by propagandists

0:43:370:43:45

from decriminalisation. It has not

been like the great success.

0:43:450:43:50

Portugal had feeble drug laws and

usage of some drugs increased. The

0:43:500:43:55

real place to look at is England

where the decriminal identitiesation

0:43:550:44:00

of drugs has been continuing in this

country since 1974ish at an amazing

0:44:000:44:06

rate, but never officially

acknowledged which has been an

0:44:060:44:10

indefensible disaster.

How would

decriminalising the drugs reverse

0:44:100:44:15

the trend of 2500 people dying from

the illegal use of drugs in the UK

0:44:150:44:19

in 2016, up from the previous year

for the fourth year in a row?

0:44:190:44:24

Because there are groups, whilst the

Prime Minister quoted one lady who

0:44:240:44:27

is a constituent who set up DrugFAM

there are other organisations

0:44:270:44:35

so-called Anyone's Child. Their

children have gone off to concerts

0:44:350:44:39

or discos and whatever and have used

ecstasy, as a lot of our young

0:44:390:44:45

people do when they go to these

places. Ecstasy is criminally

0:44:450:44:48

supplied. They don't know what's in

it it and their child died and the

0:44:480:44:57

issue is, if we stay with the

current position, the supply of all

0:44:570:45:02

these drugs remains in the hands of

criminals. How do we get to a place

0:45:020:45:06

where we can regulate and control

what people are going to put into

0:45:060:45:09

their bodies?

0:45:090:45:17

You are simply spouting, the

evidence is of cures these drugs are

0:45:170:45:25

damaging, that legalising them

doesn't make them any less damaging,

0:45:250:45:31

the common one tab co-and alcohol,

they are still dangerous to those

0:45:310:45:34

who use them, they are very much the

subject of criminal acts, so both

0:45:340:45:42

main planks of the argument are

feeble. What you really must

0:45:420:45:47

understand, Mr Blunt is

decriminalisation has taken place in

0:45:470:45:50

this country. In 1994 John O'Connor,

a former head of the Flying Squad

0:45:500:45:55

shade that cannabis was a

decriminalised drug. The damage it

0:45:550:45:59

does is not killing people, but it

is increasingly correlated with

0:45:590:46:06

serious irreversible mental illness,

there is a cynical greed campaign,

0:46:060:46:10

which seeks now to go to the Nketiah

stage. The realisation, advertise,

0:46:100:46:17

sale in supermarkets and more and

more people and their families

0:46:170:46:23

suffering permanent misery. ? You

say there would be health

0:46:230:46:27

improvements.

Our cannabis is supplied by

0:46:270:46:34

criminals and 90% is street cannabis

is therefore, the cannabis that is

0:46:340:46:39

most strongly linked to mental

illness and psychosis.

He has a good

0:46:390:46:45

point in that respect.

Of course it

is dangerous.

How do you make it

0:46:450:46:52

better health wise?

In you were in a

position where you know what you are

0:46:520:46:56

getting, because it is legally

supplied and it is regulated and

0:46:560:47:01

licensed and regular lated to

whatever standard is appropriate.

0:47:010:47:07

How can, do you get this stuff slfs

this comes out a Christmas cracker.

0:47:070:47:14

You haven't answered my point.

Don't

talk over each other.

Cigaretted are

0:47:140:47:19

regulated, are they safe?

No.

Tobacco is not a safe thing to

0:47:190:47:24

smoke.

Hang on, answer the point.

Gentleman, if you talk over each

0:47:240:47:29

other no-one can hear. You will get

a word in. If we look at the example

0:47:290:47:36

of Portugal, when they

decriminalised the possession of

0:47:360:47:42

drugs HIV infection and drug-related

deaths did drop. .

The Portuguese

0:47:420:47:50

drug problem I said was not very

great. By comparison with some other

0:47:500:47:56

country, my point is not about

deaths and drug use, my point, most

0:47:560:48:01

particularly about the billionaire

backed hugely financed campaign, to

0:48:010:48:07

which Mr Blunt has fallen victim to

legalise this drug so people can

0:48:070:48:13

make enormous out of drugs.

That is

a different work. .

Known can

0:48:130:48:20

maintain...

Let me let Alison in.

I

think this is is a regrettable way

0:48:200:48:27

to have a serious discussion, I

think that, because you keep

0:48:270:48:33

interrupting and it has become an

attack on Crispin whose position I

0:48:330:48:38

don't entirely agree with to be

honest with you, I would prefer us

0:48:380:48:41

to look objectivity at the science,

to marry that with ambition, for

0:48:410:48:45

good mental health which we are

failing to fund, and decent proper

0:48:450:48:50

policing by consent, which we are

failing to fund F we continue to

0:48:500:48:55

throw rocks at each other we will

never get to a proper policy.

Are

0:48:550:49:01

you just ignoring what are health

benefits that have been pointed out.

0:49:010:49:05

You take a different view. Will it

help deal with the scourge of drug

0:49:050:49:11

ruse.

I am pointing out the major

threat from cannabis, you support,

0:49:110:49:19

you appear...

Licensing and

regulation. And we are going to see

0:49:190:49:26

from the results of the Dan moving

to this place.

I was asking a

0:49:260:49:30

question. I don't want yet another

crossing out...

Let me from seed to

0:49:300:49:40

my panel. Panel. You are

interrupting me. He is in favour of

0:49:400:49:49

decriminalising cannabis.

The reason

being, as he is claiming it is

0:49:490:49:54

dangerous, I would agree it is, one

of the reasons it is more dangerous

0:49:540:49:57

than it needs to be because it is

surprised by criminals who don't

0:49:570:50:02

give a monkey about the efengt it

has on people. What I want to do at

0:50:020:50:08

the evidence that is going to merge

and look at the evidence of the

0:50:080:50:15

danger, the criminalisation of this

half a tri$tria year has done to

0:50:150:50:21

states like member co-and so on,

this goes wider,th a global issue.

0:50:210:50:30

It has passed a -- criminals who

fight and kill people in order to

0:50:300:50:34

maintain their market share. There

is a better and safer way of doing

0:50:340:50:37

this.

Shouldn't it be considered.

Even giving young people a criminal

0:50:370:50:43

record for possessing can bit can

ruin their lives, is it worth it.

Of

0:50:430:50:48

course it can, that is the idea of

having a law against cannabis

0:50:480:50:52

possession to deter people from

having anything to do with a drug

0:50:520:50:55

that can ruin their lives and has

ruined the lives of many young

0:50:550:51:00

people and their families. Which is

what it does. You are interrupting

0:51:000:51:03

me.

Should alcohol be banned.

It is

studio late. If it was being abused

0:51:030:51:13

now. I would be in favour of

pretending -- preventing it.

Thank

0:51:130:51:17

you.

That is all I get?

It was quite

a lot.

It was worth fighting for

0:51:170:51:22

what I got.

Thank you.

0:51:220:51:23

Thank you.

0:51:230:51:25

Now, it's Philip Hammond's birthday

and if his friends and family

0:51:250:51:27

were listening to his Budget last

month then perhaps they should have

0:51:270:51:30

bought him a new car -

a driverless one.

0:51:300:51:32

He's a big fan of the emerging

technology and he's said he wants

0:51:320:51:35

to see "fully driverless cars"

on Britain's roads by 2021.

0:51:350:51:38

But the motoring journalist

Quentin Wilson thinks that could be

0:51:380:51:40

an unrealistic ambition.

0:51:400:51:41

Here's his soapbox.

0:51:410:51:51

Driverless cars on Britain's

roads in four years?

0:52:050:52:07

Sounds a bit ambitious.

0:52:070:52:08

Let's park that vision for a moment,

and ask the question,

0:52:080:52:11

where are we right now?

0:52:110:52:20

Autonomous technology ranges

from what's called level one,

0:52:200:52:22

which is things like electronic

distance control that we have now,

0:52:220:52:24

all the way up to level five,

where the machines drive better

0:52:240:52:27

than the humans.

0:52:270:52:33

We don't have that yet,

but we do have this.

0:52:330:52:36

The Tesla Model S, which is level

two, and there are thousands

0:52:360:52:39

of these on British roads right now.

0:52:390:52:40

This car has auto-braking,

auto-parking, auto-steering.

0:52:400:52:42

It will change lanes on motorways

itself, and it will even

0:52:420:52:44

have a summon function.

0:52:440:52:54

Your garage door opens and this

car will automatically

0:53:020:53:04

come and find you.

0:53:040:53:05

It's great, but it's not level five,

where there's no steering wheel

0:53:050:53:08

and no human input at all.

0:53:080:53:10

That comes a few

years down the line.

0:53:100:53:18

The Government is absolutely right

to encourage this industry,

0:53:180:53:20

because it creates millions of jobs,

saves us all that tedious

0:53:200:53:23

driving time and could cut

accidents by as much as 80%.

0:53:230:53:25

But politicians need to be

careful they're not raising

0:53:250:53:28

everybody's expectations.

0:53:280:53:34

There's the legislation to sort out,

there's the infrastructure,

0:53:340:53:36

so don't go making promises that

neither they nor the car

0:53:360:53:39

industry can keep yet.

0:53:390:53:44

And also I'd recommend that they go

out and actually drive some

0:53:440:53:46

autonomous cars themselves.

0:53:460:53:51

Autonomous cars, then,

are definitely coming,

0:53:510:53:52

but it might be a bit premature

to trade the Escort in quite yet.

0:53:520:53:55

Every car manufacturer

is working on them.

0:53:550:54:01

They're all trying to get

to that goal of level five.

0:54:010:54:06

Who wouldn't want a Brave New World

where machines do all the driving?

0:54:060:54:13

HG Wells would be proud and he would

absolutely love this Tesla.

0:54:130:54:19

And Quentin Wilson joins us now.

0:54:190:54:21

Is too late. If it was being abused

now. I would be in favour of

0:54:210:54:24

pretending -- preventing it. Thank

you.

That is all I get?

It was quite

0:54:240:54:26

a lot.

It was worth fighting for

what I got.

Thank you.

0:54:260:54:29

Is it terrifying the thought of no

hands on the steering wheel?

No,

0:54:290:54:31

driving that was wonderful, because

you know, we have to a stage where

0:54:310:54:34

the thing drives itself, how ever,

we are not at the stage where we can

0:54:340:54:37

have cars that drive themselves

without human intervention by 2021.

0:54:370:54:41

Is that not possible?

No, it is

laughable. You are overpromising and

0:54:410:54:46

they are confused with the diesel

gate. They have lost billions in

0:54:460:54:53

depreciation we are destabilising

the car market. I am in favour of

0:54:530:54:59

Britain being at the centre. We have

to do it in a measured way. 37

0:54:590:55:04

million drivers don't know what to

do. Here is the dark side of this.

0:55:040:55:10

If we carry on pushing consumers

towards this brave New World that

0:55:100:55:13

doesn't exist yet, we are going to

cause a credit, a subprime credit

0:55:130:55:19

crash in car, because they are all

on what is known as personal

0:55:190:55:23

contract plans, this could cause a

real collapse in residual value, it

0:55:230:55:29

could affect the banks.

What if he

promised something that is

0:55:290:55:33

impossible.

We are talking about

timescale.

He said by 2021 he wanted

0:55:330:55:39

to see them on the road.

In

prototype. I don't imagine we will

0:55:390:55:44

be rolling round in driverless cars

by 2021.

That isn't going to happen.

0:55:440:55:49

But, Quentin is right.

The UK needs

to be in this place, in this

0:55:490:55:54

technology, it is playing with

technology of the future, we have to

0:55:540:55:57

get the timescale right. And

plainly, the car I have and the cars

0:55:570:56:04

everyone has won't depreciate in

value.

Are you excited by the idea.

0:56:040:56:09

I am generally excited by new

technology, there is an issue in

0:56:090:56:15

that in politics we saw off from

like news cycle attention deficit in

0:56:150:56:19

that we want to make newsy

announcement, where

0:56:190:56:24

industry, what people need is more

kind of steady progress, so that we

0:56:240:56:27

should be opening up, what we will

do about regulation and investment,

0:56:270:56:32

over a much longer period. Actually

over the timescale of one

0:56:320:56:37

Government, so we should be having

much longer timescale gus pot ticks

0:56:370:56:41

we are bad at that. Terrible.

Let us

look at the legal issues for you

0:56:410:56:46

talked about the infrastructure,

what about the legal issues, whose

0:56:460:56:50

fault is it if there is a crash?

That is the thing that the Select

0:56:500:56:55

Committee was trying to work out you

will have to have a network that is

0:56:550:57:00

responsible because the Geneva

Convention say you have to have a

0:57:000:57:04

driver behind the wheel. We have to

change that. The whole thing is the

0:57:040:57:09

fact you have no human input. You

won't get to that goal. We are not

0:57:090:57:17

going to get it in the short time. I

will be ten years before we get

0:57:170:57:21

level four.

How much money should be

spent on it to make it happen?

You

0:57:210:57:28

will need to ask someone who is more

expert. Plainly this is an area if

0:57:280:57:35

you have a big budget for the

country which we have and our

0:57:350:57:40

science budget has been increasing

despite the demands on public

0:57:400:57:46

expenditure, there is an area the UK

should be in.

We saw cuts to stamp

0:57:460:57:53

duty that will go to people who...

Is that zero sum game.

The value

0:57:530:58:02

accrues to people who own homes, the

reason I mention it. If we look at R

0:58:020:58:07

and D and investment. What the

Tories have done, is tax breaks and

0:58:070:58:12

not build up an investment fund that

says we have a massive wealth

0:58:120:58:17

inequality. Why don't we look at the

system.

We will have to finish it

0:58:170:58:24

there.

We have had a tweet from Donald

0:58:240:58:28

Tusk, he is feeling optimistic, tell

me why I like Mondays he say, mist

0:58:280:58:35

quoting the boom on the rats. --

boom town rats. Gets closer to

0:58:350:58:42

sufficient progress at December. He

is feeling positive.

0:58:420:58:45

He is feeling positive.

0:58:450:58:46

That's all for today.

0:58:460:58:47

Thanks to our guests.

0:58:470:58:48

The One O'Clock News is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:58:480:58:51

I'll be here at noon

tomorrow with all the big

0:58:510:58:53

political stories of the day,

do join me then.

0:58:530:58:55

Bye-bye.

0:58:550:58:59

Labour's Alison McGovern and Crispin Blunt from the Conservatives join Jo Coburn throughout the programme. They look at the likelihood of a deal in the Brexit negotiations and speak to the SNP's Stephen Gethins about their amendments to the EU Withdrawal Bill. Peter Hitchens discusses whether the laws on drugs should be changed and Quentin Willson talks about the prospect of driverless cars.