05/12/2017 Daily Politics


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05/12/2017

Jo Coburn is joined for the whole programme by deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats Jo Swinson. They look at the fallout from the Brexit talks on Monday and what happens now.


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LineFromTo

Hello, and welcome

to the Daily Politics.

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The Government says it's confident

a deal on Brexit can be reached,

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despite hopes of a breakthrough

on the question of the Irish border

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being dashed yesterday.

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But can the Prime Minister

find a solution that's

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acceptable to her supporters

in the Democratic Unionist Party?

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Under Vince Cable,

the Liberal Democrats

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are still firmly opposed to Brexit,

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but with little support

to show for it so far,

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is it time for the party

to change tack?

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We'll be taking a look

at one of the most famous

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views of Parliament,

after six paintings of Westminster

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by the French impessionist

Claude Monet have gone on show

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in London for the first time.

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And it's been an exciting morning

for England in the Ashes -

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we'll be talking to cricketing

legend Henry Blofeld

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about a campaign to get sports

like this shown on TV for free.

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All that in the next hour

and with us for the whole

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of the programme today,

the leader of the Liberal Democrats,

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economist and author of a book that

apparently only narrowly missed out

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on recognition at this year's

Bad Sex in Fiction Awards -

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it's Vince Cable.

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Welcome to the show.

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It was considered to be too good!

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It was considered to be too good!

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First today, let's talk about Brexit

and the latest on those attempts

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to reach a deal ahead of next week's

summit of EU leaders in Brussels.

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The post-mortem for just

what went wrong yesterday,

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when many had predicted

a breakthrough on the first part

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of the negotiations including

the tricky question of what to do

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about the Irish border,

is in full swing.

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Blame has been spread widely

to include the British Government,

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the DUP, the Irish Government

and the EU for leaking the whole

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thing and talking up the chances

of a deal in the first place.

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Earlier this morning,

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the Chancellor Philip Hammond

was asked what exactly had happened.

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We've been involved in a very

complex negotiation that's been

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going on for some time.

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We have made a lot of progress

over the last weeks,

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we've made tremendous steps forward.

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We are very close but

we're not there yet.

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As the Prime Minister

said yesterday,

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we will have to go

for some further consultations,

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some further discussion today

and she expects to come back

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to Brussels later in the week.

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But in the meantime,

we've got work to do.

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Well, we're joined now by someone

who's been watching all of this

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in more detail than is probably

healthy - it's the BBC's

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Laura Kuenssberg.

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Welcome back from Brussels. What

went wrong?

Well, there is a wide

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variety of interpretations in terms

of what went wrong, in terms of the

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choreography, what went wrong is

clearly the DUP, who Theresa May

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needs to get her Brexit legislation

through the common, she relies on

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them, had not been consulted enough

in order to be completely happy with

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the draft agreement that was

changed, tweaked, worked on over the

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weekend, so when Theresa May was

sitting in her meeting with

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Jean-Claude Juncker, pictured

happily there behind you, at that

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point, over in Belfast Arlene foster

and her colleagues came down the

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stairs and said they weren't happy

with it. At which point Theresa May

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had to leave her meeting with

Jean-Claude Juncker, to have a

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private one or one phone call with

Arlene Foster during the course of

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which Miss Foster said we can't put

up with this. Theresa May had to say

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to Jean-Claude Juncker, it was off.

Off. How we got to that point there

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are lots of different versions of

events and we can talk about those

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in a moment.

We will talk about why

they are not happy. It is

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extraordinary that Theresa May had

to come out of that meeting to talk

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to the DUP, as you say, who prop up

Theresa May in this instance, whose

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fault was that that the DUP had not

been properly consultanted.

Fingers

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have been pointed. It has been

suggested the newish Chief Whip

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assured the Prime Minister the DUP

had been squared off. It has been

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put to me it is the fault officials

in Number Ten Olly robins, one does

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wonder what the Prime Minister

herself was making of it and why she

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thought it might be politically

acceptable and her critics suggested

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she is too much of a manager not in

fact somebody with real political

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nous. Of course there are fingers

being pointed at the European Union

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for pushing Ireland too hard and

Ireland pushing the UK too hard to a

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solution where they were making

demands on these assurances, that

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were never going to be acceptable to

their cousins ace co-the the Irish

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border in the north. In terms of who

is officially to blame, Moeen, the

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talks go on. -- no-one. It will be

fine by Friday.

Let us talk about

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why the DUP ended up so unhappy.

This is about regulatory alignment.

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It means probably very little to a

lot of us, but it means Northern

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Ireland being treated the same as

the Regs of the UK, they don't want

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to be treated any differently,

except there are things they do in

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common with Ireland, issues that

have been agreed in the Good Friday

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Agreement. What is it they were so

unhappy about.

It is a principle for

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the DUP. They do not want Brexit to

mean that Northern Ireland looks

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less British than the rest of the

United Kingdom, that is their reason

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for being. It they are a unionist

party. There are issues on which

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they have cooperation, there is a

lot of cooperation there. When they

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were unhappy about was the extend to

which this proposed deal implied

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really that in future, Northern

Ireland would be more closely tied

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to temperature EU in some areas than

it would to the UK. As the UK

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strikes out on its own, Northern

Ireland wouldn't be able to do that

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and therefore the paths of the two

parts of the United Kingdom would be

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splitting. But why this is so neural

jibbing, so toxic is because this is

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in some ways a proxy for the debate

happening inside the Tory party.

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What kind of Brexit are we going to

end up with, the vision that Philip

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Hammond would like to see, to make

things easy, we stick closely to the

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European Union, we mirror what is

happening or will we end up with the

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kind of Brexit where we strike out

on our own, we are much more able to

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make changes as we see fit. It It's

a principle for the Unionistings but

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difficult here because it pressed on

bruise of the fight that has been

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going on for months now. It has been

suggested to me it may get to the

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point there the pressure on her to

walk. If the EU is not prepared to

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bury this for now, to postpone the

Irish issue, Theresa May ought to

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walk out. Is

Vince Cable,

negotiations like these, despite

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what some people said were going to

be complicated. You have to get sow

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many people on side. Isn't this part

and parcel of what happen and a deal

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is still possible.

We are not

talking about a final deal. From the

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foothills to the real mountains, you

have a party that accounts for 1% of

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the British public which doesn't

represent the majority in Northern

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Ireland,

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there is a lot of sheer

incompetence, the one way the

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British public mood is change, their

overall assessment of Brexit hadn't

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changed, but the one way is to feel

the Government is handling this

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badly.

They not changing their mind

on Brexit are they?

Not yet but we

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haven't seen what the outcome is,

the one thing that is very striking,

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and the poll in the Mail on Sunday

made it clear, is we have a

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significant margin, about 16% of

those people who think there ought

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to be a referendum on the final

deal. That was not the case before.

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We put that case in June in the

election and didn't win the

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argument.

You have improved your

position in the polls as a result.

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Can I come back to this issue about

parts of the Tory party that have

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jumped to some extent on the band

wagon. You have Ruth Davidson saying

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why don't we do the same for the

whole of the UK? Terms or aliving

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ourselves more closely to the EU.

You can see, there could be more

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pressure and an attempt to have what

we used to call, a soft Brexit.

That

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is right. The one solution, one

former minister said to me in

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Europe, technically it would be easy

to fix all of this. Your say fine,

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we stay in the customs union,

Theresa May has ruled that out and

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maybe half, two thirds of the 1922

of the Tory backbenchers wouldn't

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accept that, so there is a solution

but that would have consequences

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about how we could strike free trade

agreements and undermine

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opportunities that come after we

leave the European Union. So it is

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difficult but in a sense we are

seeing the red line, so many have

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faded to pink but her political box

means that rather being able to make

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bold offers she is very much hemmed

in. But I think someone was pulling

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the their hair out saying she won't

be able to please everybody.

Will

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there a deal?

It is still possible.

This is what I was going to say it

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it is all sides want there to be a

deal. It is also the case while it

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would be politically inconvenient

and not what Number Ten want,

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December isn't the last chance. It

is feasible it could go on till

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match. Some people think why not?

What is the rush because part of the

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problem is the time pressure.

Business groups ofs are worried

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ain't vestment decisions being

delayed. It is possible and if the

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DUP come back onboard by the end of

the week, the policies would have a

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completely different complexion

again.

We look forward to that. Let

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us pause fourth for our daily quiz.

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The question for today

is which party leader has taken part

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in a charity Christmas song,

singing the Mariah Carey classic

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All I want for Christmas?

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At the end of the show,

Vince will hopefully give us

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the correct answer.

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Can I tell you?

No, you can wait to

the end of the show!

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No, you can wait to

the end of the show!

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We knew there would be plenty

of shuttle diplomacy needed

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during the Brexit negotiations,

and Theresa May has plenty more

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people to try and get onside

in the coming weeks.

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This morning, she held a meeting

of the Cabinet, where she will have

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had to explain why a deal hasn't

yet been agreed.

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Convention is that the Prime

Minister addresses Parliament

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after any significant EU meeting,

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but she won't be

speaking to MPs today.

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The Prime Minister will instead hold

talks with DUP leader Arlene Foster

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as she attempts to ease

Unionist concerns

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that Northern Ireland

could have a separate status

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within Britain under a future deal.

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She could then skip

Prime Minister's Questions

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to head back to Brussels

as early as tomorrow,

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to resume talks with

European Commission President

0:12:470:12:49

Jean Claude Juncker.

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The PM is under pressure to get

an agreement on EU divorce issues

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before European leaders meet next

Thursday to decide if enough

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progress has been made to start

talks on post-Brexit trade.

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And, of course, that doesn't just

include the tricky question

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of the Irish border,

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but also whether the European Court

of Justice will have jurisdiction

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over EU citizens in the UK

after Brexit, and for how long.

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Both sides say they're optimistic

a deal can still be reached,

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but it has to be agreed

by the EU, including Ireland,

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the Democratic Unionist Party's ten

MPs who Theresa May relies on

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for her majority

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and the rest of

the Conservative Party.

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And to help us make sense of why

yesterday's talks failed to break

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the impasse on the status

of the Irish border,

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I'm joined now by Allie Renison,

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head of Trade and Brexit Policy

at the Institute of Directors.

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Delayed. It is possible and if the

DUP come back onboard by the end of

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the week, the policies would have a

completely different complexion

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again. We look forward to that. Let

us pause fourth for our daily quiz.

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Can I tell you?

No, you can wait to

the end of the show!

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Thank you for joining us here. We

talked briefly a moment ago about

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regulatory divergence and continued

regulatory alignment, what is the

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difference?

The tendency is to look

at this, this is a discussion about

0:14:060:14:08

is man Tibbs although if you were to

peel back some of the layers, I

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think that allows, lead you down the

path of ensuring this was the UK is

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more in step with EU rules governing

stingle market. Along the lines of

0:14:180:14:27

Norway and regulatory alignment

althoughs you more.

0:14:270:14:35

-- allows you more. More. Do you

think this is an attempt to fudge it

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by changing the language and

semantics of the text?

It was'

0:14:410:14:45

request how much you would would get

to are lating to the Irish border in

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phase one, you know, the concern

from businesses now and while those

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who deal in policy are following

day-by-day what is going on, most

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businesses are saying as long as we

get over the line next week that is

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all that matter, it is important for

all parties to remember if we don't

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get sufficient progress next week,

the noise for walking off without a

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deal becomes very loud. So that is

the most important thing people are

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looking at. I am optimistic when

ehear people like Jean-Claude

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Juncker and Donald Tusk saying they

feel confident about getting a deal.

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In the past they have said that.

Was

it too optimistic to expect an

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agreement yesterday.

We are not

privvy to the different ins and

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outs. It is not clear to what extent

all parties involved were being

0:15:370:15:44

consulteded in advance so that is a

question we saw people on the

0:15:440:15:48

Commission saying today the show is

in London, so that is obviousibly

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reflected, where is it the UK wants

to head sequencely, what the last

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24, 48-hours shown that discussion

about what the UK wants as a whole

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is suddenly being brought forward.

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How much detail, as you said, can be

done at this stage? Or are we

0:16:110:16:17

expecting the individual parties,

whether it is the Irish Government

0:16:170:16:19

or the DUP or the Conservative

Party, to take on trust the broad

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outline at this stage before you can

move on?

You often hear when you are

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in Brussels discussion about the

importance of the UK Government

0:16:290:16:32

conveying that trust and goodwill

that has happened in the past

0:16:320:16:35

through the speeches that Theresa

May has made, in Florence, you saw

0:16:350:16:39

the money issue move after that and

so I think what the Irish Government

0:16:390:16:42

is probably looking for is a road

map showing that no matter what

0:16:420:16:47

happens, the Good Friday Agreement,

the Belfast agreement, the North -

0:16:470:16:52

South cooperation that exists will

be protected and as long as there is

0:16:520:16:55

another trust to show that that is

what the UK intends to do, perhaps

0:16:550:16:58

we can leave a lot of the practical

discussions for phase two, because

0:16:580:17:04

it feels like we are dancing around

issues that cannot be separated from

0:17:040:17:08

future arrangements overall.

Thank

you very much.

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We're joined now by the Conservative

MP Kwazi Kwarteng, he's also an aide

0:17:120:17:15

to Chancellor Philip Hammond,

0:17:150:17:17

for Labour, the Shadow Brexit

0:17:170:17:18

spokesperson, Jenny Chapman,

and of course Vince Cable

0:17:180:17:20

is our guest of the day.

0:17:200:17:24

Should the DUP have been properly

consulted and informed about the

0:17:240:17:28

deal the Prime Minister was about to

sign up to yesterday?

I think the

0:17:280:17:33

whole point of negotiation and the

Prime Minister's conversation was it

0:17:330:17:36

was only at the end of that process

that they came up a formula of words

0:17:360:17:41

and you can't inform people of the

formula of word your going to come

0:17:410:17:44

up with before you start the

negotiation. I think there was a

0:17:440:17:48

misunderstanding and I understand

that from various blogs, one

0:17:480:17:52

journalist from Ireland made a tweet

about what the nature of the deal

0:17:520:17:57

was the DUP essentially reacted to

that. But it is clear to me that we

0:17:570:18:01

can definitely get a deal. The

Chancellor said this morning he is

0:18:010:18:05

very confident of the deal and as

you're into the Kuta said just now,

0:18:050:18:08

both Tusk and Jean-Claude Juncker

are very optimistic about getting a

0:18:080:18:13

deal -- as your intolerant Kuta

said.

But Kwasi Kwarteng, Theresa

0:18:130:18:21

May was having lunch with Donald

Jean-Claude Juncker and the DUP has

0:18:210:18:31

said there could be a withdrawal of

support for the Government, why

0:18:310:18:34

didn't I know what was being agreed?

As I understand, there was a leak

0:18:340:18:39

from the lunch, from the statement

they were going to make, which had

0:18:390:18:42

come out and they reacted in the way

they did.

Should there have been an

0:18:420:18:48

exchange papers? Your colleague Owen

Paterson has said it was

0:18:480:18:50

extraordinary that there wasn't an

exchange of official papers between

0:18:500:18:53

the DUP the Government.

I don't see

it in the way he does at all.

But

0:18:530:18:59

that is why they are not supporting

it and have scuppered this

0:18:590:19:01

agreement.

Before we get very

excited about this, I'm very

0:19:010:19:05

confident that a deal will be made

and I'm also very confident that the

0:19:050:19:08

DUP will be able to agree to the

terms of any future deal that we

0:19:080:19:13

have.

What gives you that

confidence? What is the Government

0:19:130:19:16

going to do to get the DUP on board?

I think the DUP have said and the

0:19:160:19:21

Government have said that they want

to treat Northern Ireland as a whole

0:19:210:19:25

with the rest of the UK, and that is

something the DUP and the

0:19:250:19:28

Conservative Party is committed to,

it is a Conservative and Unionist

0:19:280:19:33

Party, for point and information.

Was it a mistake to talk about

0:19:330:19:39

regulatory alignment between Ireland

and Northern Ireland?

I think the

0:19:390:19:43

regulatory alignment wouldn't be a

deal-breaker for me. The DUP clearly

0:19:430:19:47

had an issue with that and we are

going to have to come up with a more

0:19:470:19:50

specific formula of words to please

them. I completely understand that,

0:19:500:19:55

that is how negotiation and

diplomacy is conducted.

But it is

0:19:550:19:58

not just a form of words, there is

going to have to be a decision by

0:19:580:20:02

the Government as to whether they

are going to align Northern Ireland

0:20:020:20:05

with the EU more closely, which the

DUP has said no to, but if they

0:20:050:20:10

don't do that, then the Irish

Government isn't going to agree

0:20:100:20:13

because they thought yesterday we

can to have regulatory equivalence

0:20:130:20:19

between Northern Ireland and

Ireland.

But equivalence is in the

0:20:190:20:22

same as alignment. I don't want to

get into a semantic debate. Clearly

0:20:220:20:26

regulatory alignment is different to

regulatory equivalence so we can do

0:20:260:20:29

a deal based on Northern Ireland and

Ireland and the rest of the EU.

Do

0:20:290:20:35

you think a deal is possible? It

seems that actually this can be

0:20:350:20:39

squared and it was about people

leaking details too soon yesterday.

0:20:390:20:43

I think it is shocking what happened

yesterday. What happened was

0:20:430:20:48

embarrassing for the country. It is

extraordinary that the Prime

0:20:480:20:51

Minister didn't keep the DUP

informed, didn't... I spoke to the

0:20:510:20:58

DUP last night and again this

morning, informally, and they are

0:20:580:21:01

very cross that they felt that they

weren't respected and included and

0:21:010:21:07

kept informed and they felt that the

Conservative Party hadn't really got

0:21:070:21:11

to know them, but I think they feel

they do now, and the Prime Minister

0:21:110:21:16

needs to take a very, very different

approach. She seems to have this

0:21:160:21:21

attitude, on many occasions,

actually, where she wants to do

0:21:210:21:23

deals privately but she falls short

on the aspects of it which are

0:21:230:21:29

around communication and bringing

people with her and it's a very

0:21:290:21:32

important quality when you are

talking about this kind of

0:21:320:21:35

negotiation.

We will come onto

substance, but it was mishandled and

0:21:350:21:39

the DUP are very cross?

I think what

you said in the question to the

0:21:390:21:43

Labour representative was right, I

think it was a question of a tweet,

0:21:430:21:47

it was a question of leaked

statements which were slightly

0:21:470:21:50

misinterpreted.

So we lose a deal on

the back of a tweet, is that what

0:21:500:21:55

you are saying?

I am not saying

that.

Well, the practical result is

0:21:550:22:01

a deal hasn't been done.

Jenny will

understand that we live in a social

0:22:010:22:05

media age and people react to all of

that.

Did the Number Ten operation

0:22:050:22:10

failed to come up to standards?

We

are very close to a deal and I think

0:22:100:22:14

a deal is eminently achievable and

far more likely than not and we will

0:22:140:22:17

have made significant progress. All

of these people, Vince and Jenny,

0:22:170:22:21

were saying it is never going to

happen, doomsayers right from the

0:22:210:22:24

start and they never thought we

would get a deal and it is a real

0:22:240:22:27

credit to the Government that we are

going to achieve a deal in the time

0:22:270:22:31

we have.

Isn't that what you did

say, that this is a mess?

We haven't

0:22:310:22:37

got a deal yet. On the two big areas

where the Government claims it has

0:22:370:22:41

got an agreement, which is on the

rights of citizens and on the money,

0:22:410:22:45

basically it has happened because

the British Government has signed up

0:22:450:22:47

to what the European Union asked for

a year ago. They knew exactly what

0:22:470:22:52

was coming down the track. And on

the Irish question, Jenny is right,

0:22:520:22:57

it was terribly incompetent but

underneath the incompetence, there

0:22:570:23:00

is a fundamental problem of

difference. This isn't the question

0:23:000:23:05

of no in sign language. You may well

get some agreement on regulatory

0:23:050:23:10

convergence or divergence, which is

about the single market but the

0:23:100:23:13

basic issue of freedom of movement

across the frontier through trade,

0:23:130:23:17

which is a customs union issue, has

not been resolved and hasn't even

0:23:170:23:20

been confronted.

You will know it

wasn't part of the first phase of

0:23:200:23:25

discussion, you have said that

yourself earlier.

Well, let's clear

0:23:250:23:31

up labours position, because do you

agree, Jenny Chapman, with Ruth

0:23:310:23:36

Davison, who says it regulatory

alignment in a number of specific

0:23:360:23:39

areas is the requirement for a

frictionless border, the Prime

0:23:390:23:42

Minister must conclude this should

be on a UK wide basis. Should we

0:23:420:23:46

stay in a customs union?

I

completely agree with Ruth on saying

0:23:460:23:50

it is a UK wide basis. We cannot

have separate deals for bits of the

0:23:500:23:54

United Kingdom, so yes on that.

Should we stay in a customs union?

0:23:540:24:00

We would not have ruled out

membership of the customs union in

0:24:000:24:02

the way the Prime Minister has and I

am sure she regrets that because she

0:24:020:24:06

has boxed herself in, and by taking

that of the table, something the

0:24:060:24:09

Labour Party would not have done and

we would have kept the customs union

0:24:090:24:13

not just on the table but we would

have wanted it for the transition

0:24:130:24:16

period as well...

So what would your

deal look like at this stage, if you

0:24:160:24:21

don't even know with few would have

been in or out of the customs union?

0:24:210:24:25

We would keep it on the table.

So

how could you do actively to do an

0:24:250:24:32

agreement?

You don't need the full

details.

you need to know if you

0:24:320:24:35

want to be in or out of the customs

union.

What we would say is we are

0:24:350:24:40

not ruling out membership.

Vince

Cable is clear, once to stay in a

0:24:400:24:45

customs union and the single market.

That is a clear position, you may

0:24:450:24:50

like it or not. The Conservatives

are saying we must be outside the

0:24:500:24:53

customs union and outside the single

market. Again, you may not agree

0:24:530:24:57

with it. And the Labour position is

we are not sure.

The Labour position

0:24:570:25:02

is we would keep it on the table and

negotiate from that position. This

0:25:020:25:06

is a negotiation, this is not a

situation where Theresa May can turn

0:25:060:25:10

up in Brussels and say this is what

I want, this is what I must have.

0:25:100:25:15

You have criticised the Government

because you say we need to know what

0:25:150:25:18

the Government actually once and

they said what they want.

Watching

0:25:180:25:21

is to do is go to Brussels and say

we are not ruling out the customs

0:25:210:25:26

union, which could be the solution

to not just future jobs and trade

0:25:260:25:30

for the whole of the UK, but solves

this absolutely critical issue of

0:25:300:25:36

the Irish border and people who are

saying, like Kwasi Kwarteng, that we

0:25:360:25:40

want to be out of the customs union,

cannot answer how you solve the

0:25:400:25:44

Irish border. They are prepared to

sacrifice that.

That is the solution

0:25:440:25:48

and what would you say if Theresa

May, in the end, agrees that that is

0:25:480:25:52

the only way to solve this problem,

is to say we are going to stay in

0:25:520:25:57

some sort of customs union in order

to have that frictionless border?

I

0:25:570:26:01

think you put it very well...

And

some I question.

My position is

0:26:010:26:07

clear, we have got to come out of

the customs union and out of the

0:26:070:26:10

single market. The issue about the

customs union is if we stay in a

0:26:100:26:14

customs union, we will not be able

to strike bilateral deals with any

0:26:140:26:18

other country and that is very, very

important. A very important part of

0:26:180:26:24

Britain's sovereignty and

opportunities. The Labour position

0:26:240:26:26

is as clear as mud, frankly, on all

these issues. I respect Vince's

0:26:260:26:31

position, he has a clarity and

thinks we should never have left and

0:26:310:26:35

we should stay in the EU forever and

a day, but what I am saying is we

0:26:350:26:39

are going to leave.

What is your

view of Labour's position, is it a

0:26:390:26:44

more nuanced position and would it

have worked in these negotiations,

0:26:440:26:47

saying we won't rule out staying in

the customs union?

I was

0:26:470:26:51

disappointed with the lack of

clarity, as you obviously were but

0:26:510:26:55

the point is we need to know what

the end point is. Is the objective

0:26:550:26:58

to stay in or go out? I think we are

reasonably clear where we need to

0:26:580:27:04

be, and unless it is absolutely

clear, at the end of the transition,

0:27:040:27:08

are you going to be in the single

market and customs union or not?

0:27:080:27:11

That question has to be answered.

That is what we would be

0:27:110:27:14

negotiating. We want a solution that

solves the Irish border and protects

0:27:140:27:20

jobs and the economy and a whole of

the UK.

But doesn't actually

0:27:200:27:24

amounted to Brexit.

We don't want a

solution that treat different parts

0:27:240:27:28

of the UK differently. With the best

will in the world, it is not the

0:27:280:27:33

Labour Party negotiating in

Brussels.

Does that mean you

0:27:330:27:36

shouldn't have a clear position?

We

do have a clear position that takes

0:27:360:27:39

us through the negotiation phase and

transition, which is estimated that

0:27:390:27:43

two years. That is not bad in terms

of clarity from a party that isn't

0:27:430:27:48

actually in the negotiations and we

would have handled yesterday a hell

0:27:480:27:51

of a lot better than we saw from the

Tory party.

Let me just ask, Kwasi

0:27:510:27:56

Kwarteng, on the European Court of

Justice, do you want to see an end

0:27:560:27:59

to the jurisdiction of the European

Court of Justice on EU citizens'

0:27:590:28:05

rides in the UK after Brexit?

I

would like to see an end to the

0:28:050:28:09

overall jurisdiction of the ECJ.

went?

I suspect that the end of

0:28:090:28:14

transition period in 2021. I don't

see it in 2019 because I think we

0:28:140:28:19

are going to have a transition but

certainly by the end of this

0:28:190:28:21

Parliament, we should be out of

their jurisdiction and that is a

0:28:210:28:26

clear part of the whole debate about

Brexit.

0:28:260:28:28

I think we have heard that Theresa

May is going to be speaking to both

0:28:280:28:32

Arlene Foster, head of the DUP, and

Michelle O'Neill for Sinn Fein later

0:28:320:28:36

on today, obviously to try to get

further agreement. Beyond

0:28:360:28:41

transition, would you accept any

jurisdiction of the European Court

0:28:410:28:44

of Justice on citizens' rides.

No, I

want full sovereignty of the United

0:28:440:28:49

Kingdom. I think we have got

perfectly good human rights records,

0:28:490:28:53

a perfectly good judicial system

respected around the world and I

0:28:530:28:55

think the rights of the EU citizen

here will be confirmed by our own

0:28:550:28:59

courts.

Is that possible?

It is fine

as far as it goes but we are not

0:28:590:29:05

just talking about EU citizens, we

are talking about British citizens

0:29:050:29:09

on the continent and where did they

go? Where do they get redress should

0:29:090:29:12

they have an issue? We are saying,

if you take Kwasi Kwarteng's

0:29:120:29:18

position, they would not have access

to the ECJ to solve anything and it

0:29:180:29:23

seems to be a red line put there for

ideological reasons by the Prime

0:29:230:29:27

Minister to keep people like Kwasi

onside.

She wouldn't need to do that

0:29:270:29:31

to keep the onside.

She probably

wishes she hadn't been quite so

0:29:310:29:35

emphatic about that.

If there is no

agreement at this stage before

0:29:350:29:41

moving on to phase two by December,

should the Prime Minister walk away?

0:29:410:29:45

I think in any negotiation, you

should be prepared to walk away,

0:29:450:29:49

that is the whole point. That is one

of the reasons David Cameron got

0:29:490:29:52

into the model that he did because

it was clear that he wasn't prepared

0:29:520:29:56

to walk away. I think the chances of

a deal of very high and if it

0:29:560:30:03

doesn't come to fruition this month,

we have until March.

So you are

0:30:030:30:06

saying you should wait until March,

you wouldn't walk away.

Ultimately,

0:30:060:30:10

you should have the ability to walk

away from any negotiation, that is

0:30:100:30:13

the whole point. I do think we are

so close that we should give it a

0:30:130:30:17

little more time in order to get the

deal.

Just before I let you go,

0:30:170:30:20

should the DUP be calling the shots?

I don't think they are particularly

0:30:200:30:25

calling the shots. They have ten MPs

and they know we rely on them from

0:30:250:30:29

Parliamentary majority but it is

very much the Prime Minister and

0:30:290:30:33

Conservative Government. There are

no Government ministers in the DUP

0:30:330:30:34

driving this.

But they don't

represent the majority in Northern

0:30:340:30:40

Ireland.

They don't, and we will

talk more about your position and we

0:30:400:30:43

can bring that up then. Thank you to

both of you.

0:30:430:30:58

Mark D'Arcy is in central lobby.

The

point of the urgent question is

0:30:580:31:04

obviously just to maximise the

Government's embarrassment. Keir

0:31:040:31:08

Starmer is at his best in

prosecuting barrister mode and he

0:31:080:31:11

will have lots to play with. The

real interest is going to be looking

0:31:110:31:15

at what some other groups are saying

on the kith backbencher, there are

0:31:150:31:20

groups lining up at the moment to

make sure that their particular view

0:31:200:31:23

of how Brexit should unfold is

hammered home, so there will be

0:31:230:31:29

people with unionist views saying no

separate solution for Northern

0:31:290:31:35

Ireland, others saying customs union

applying in Northern Ireland, why

0:31:350:31:39

can't we have it. Watch the Scottish

Tories in particular, they are

0:31:390:31:44

operating as a distinct group. One

said we can see them hunting as a

0:31:440:31:47

pack all the time. They will be

influential, if they flex their

0:31:470:31:51

muscles it is behind the scene,

watch what they have to say because

0:31:510:31:55

they speak with the voice of Ruth

Davidson.

What about Universal

0:31:550:32:01

Credit, because this has been a

contentious issue for the

0:32:010:32:04

Conservatives not least because some

on their own side don't like the way

0:32:040:32:10

it has been operationally rolled

out. This is down Labour.

This this

0:32:100:32:15

is a Labour motion, a strange

Parliamentary device called a humble

0:32:150:32:19

address to Her Majesty, it is a

device that can be pass, voted

0:32:190:32:25

through on an opposition they will

work. The Government's dismiss voted

0:32:250:32:31

against it as purely symbolic votes

but the Speaker has said they work.

0:32:310:32:36

This is to get the Government to

deliver up a series of reports from

0:32:360:32:41

the major projects authority on how

the implementation of Universal

0:32:410:32:45

Credit has been working out, in the

knowledge they are not a flattering

0:32:450:32:48

picture of the way this important

benefit is being rolled out across

0:32:480:32:51

the country. The idea is to force if

Government to disgorge what maybe

0:32:510:32:57

potentially embarrassing documents.

Thank you for bringing us

0:32:570:33:03

up-to-date.

0:33:030:33:05

Now, our Guest of the Day Vince

Cable took over the leadership

0:33:050:33:08

of the Liberal Democrats

after the general election

0:33:080:33:09

earlier this year, at a rocky

time for his party.

0:33:090:33:12

The party has 12 MPs in the Commons,

an increase on the eight seats

0:33:120:33:15

they held after the 2015 election

but still a long way

0:33:150:33:18

from the 57 seats they held

during the Coalition years.

0:33:180:33:20

They took 7.4% of the vote share

in the June election.

0:33:200:33:23

Opinion polls have not

shown an improvement

0:33:230:33:28

in their fortunes since then,

with the latest Survation poll

0:33:280:33:30

at the weekend showing support

for the party at just 6%.

0:33:300:33:35

But the party has gained 11 council

seats in by-elections

0:33:350:33:39

since the June election,

giving them a net gain

0:33:390:33:41

of seven councillors.

0:33:410:33:47

Slim situation isn't it for the

Liberal Democrats. A poll found half

0:33:470:33:51

of those asked support a referendum

on the final Brexit deal. And if

0:33:510:33:56

those numbers are accurate why do so

few people support the Liberal

0:33:560:34:00

Democrats?

We haven't had a test of

electoral support yet, we may have

0:34:000:34:05

an election in three or four years'

time. There will be local elections

0:34:050:34:12

next May, probably Parliamentary

by-election, locally we are doing

0:34:120:34:15

well.

Better but not well.

We

haven't had a test of support. The

0:34:150:34:21

opinion polls are where they have

been for some years.

6%.

Six to

0:34:210:34:27

nine, it is a are -- vary, the

Secretary of State is yet to come.

0:34:270:34:31

What is beginning to happen and your

owe tasting of the poll brings this

0:34:310:34:35

out our basic position on the issue

of the day which is Brexit chimes

0:34:350:34:41

with a lot of the public.

Why are

you sticking with it. You say there

0:34:410:34:46

hasn't been an electoral test, we

have had the general election, I

0:34:460:34:49

will take the by-election, the polls

haven't moved so why are you

0:34:490:34:53

sticking with the policy that that

has so for not ended up in any more

0:34:530:34:58

support for you.

In the general

election, I won and came back from

0:34:580:35:04

exile, personally it was a success

as it was for some of my colleague,

0:35:040:35:09

but the general election is past. I

mean, the situation is changing very

0:35:090:35:13

rapidly, a lot of people who voted

Remain in the referendum, basically

0:35:130:35:18

gave the Government the benefit of

the doubt. They thought they could

0:35:180:35:22

negotiate a soft Brexit. It is

becoming clear...

Or they voted for

0:35:220:35:26

the Labour Party.

This is unlikely

to happen. The performance of the

0:35:260:35:30

Labour Party in way counters your

point. What happened was within days

0:35:300:35:35

the Labour Party moved from being

complete no-hopers, to being

0:35:350:35:40

seriously challenging. The British

electorate is very volatile. The

0:35:400:35:45

issue of Brexit is unresolved. All

the polls show this there is a

0:35:450:35:52

strong public reaction against the

polarisation of the two major party,

0:35:520:35:56

that give us an opportunity.

Except

there hasn't been anything to show

0:35:560:36:00

that opportunity...

There hasn't

been much to show for it yet.

Those

0:36:000:36:04

within your own party, your former

colleague John Pugh said there is a

0:36:040:36:10

danger all our national political

band width is consumed by the Brexit

0:36:100:36:14

issue and we become Aznar Rowley

defined as Ukip. He has a point

0:36:140:36:18

doesn't he?

I did say at party

conference we are not Ukip in

0:36:180:36:24

reverse, I set out a set of issues

round National Health Service, the

0:36:240:36:29

commitment to fighting inequality.

Economic policy, sanity, which

0:36:290:36:33

things we stand for and that is the

broader issue, as I happens I

0:36:330:36:39

campaigned for John Pugh and he won

a by-election in his own area, he

0:36:390:36:45

wasn't expected to win and he did.

That is one of the sign where we are

0:36:450:36:49

organised, we have a good position,

we come back.

There is is a one in

0:36:490:36:54

five chance Brexit won't happen, I

presume you still believe that.

0:36:540:37:01

There is no marked difference in the

poll, what Europe would we be

0:37:010:37:06

staying in in would we will Babel to

revert back to our special status?

I

0:37:060:37:14

think what was, what is happening,

very clearly, is that, in a way

0:37:140:37:20

there is a new structure emerging,

you have an inner core built round

0:37:200:37:28

the eurozone which wants tighter

integration, but there is an outer

0:37:280:37:34

group which consists is of

Scandinavian countries and

0:37:340:37:37

potentially Britain which want to be

part of the European Union because

0:37:370:37:42

of the considerable benefits it has

through the supermarket, cooperation

0:37:420:37:46

on -- single market but do not want

that level of integration.

You think

0:37:460:37:50

we could retain that...

It is tragic

we are walking away at the moment

0:37:500:37:54

when Europe is being reformed in a

way that would be comfortable for

0:37:540:37:58

the UK.

Would we will Babel to keep

our rebate?

Almost certainly we

0:37:580:38:02

would.

Why? Why would they give us

that?

This depends on the

0:38:020:38:08

circumstances in which we chose to

remain. If we pulled Article 50 and

0:38:080:38:14

stayed within the European, having

had a referendum of the public, I

0:38:140:38:17

don't think the European Union are

going to raise major objection, they

0:38:170:38:21

have made it clear they would be

happy to have it back on the old

0:38:210:38:24

terms. If we had left and tried to

reapply, you are right. A Celtic of

0:38:240:38:31

additional conditionings would be

apply.

Do you think there is going

0:38:310:38:35

to be a fragmentation of the UK in

the way outlined to get an

0:38:350:38:41

aagreement, that different parts of

the UK will have to do their own

0:38:410:38:44

thing?

I think there is a risk. I

think one needs to make a

0:38:440:38:50

distinction between the Scottish

situation and Northern Ireland. In

0:38:500:38:54

zlolt is a deep anger they have been

treated differently but at the same

0:38:540:38:59

time there is a unionist majority in

Scotland, that seems to be growing.

0:38:590:39:04

The problem with Ireland, there is a

risk of a return to the troubles

0:39:040:39:10

because it is impossible to

reconcile the divergent positions of

0:39:100:39:17

Ireland...

A deal was nearly done.

Let us go back to the Liberal

0:39:170:39:24

Democrats. Jo Swinson is being

investigated over her expenses

0:39:240:39:28

spending during the election, was it

appropriate for the party to respond

0:39:280:39:32

by saying the allegations were a

classic SNP tactic when they have

0:39:320:39:36

lost an election? Where is your

evidence for that?

I was in Scotland

0:39:360:39:42

when this emerged, the people who

were conducting the election were

0:39:420:39:47

confident that they had observed the

rules as advised by the Electoral

0:39:470:39:52

Commission. ? How do you know it is

the SNP? They, as far bah as I

0:39:520:39:57

understand it that is where the

objections came from.

They denied

0:39:570:40:00

it.

The central point is it is being

investigated. I don't think this

0:40:000:40:09

will go any further.

How long do you

give yourself and the party to turn

0:40:090:40:13

it round?

I am not setting a time

limit. I have been through bad times

0:40:130:40:23

before. We were an asterisk in the

opinion poll once, a few months

0:40:230:40:29

later we were back, we have been

through a difficult...

They might

0:40:290:40:34

get fed up with you.

I am willing to

face that.

Is there...

There is no

0:40:340:40:42

pact. She is an excellent colleague.

We get on well as a partnership.

As

0:40:420:40:47

you

0:40:470:40:50

may

0:40:500:40:50

Hello, and welcome

to the Daily Politics.

0:40:500:40:52

The Government says it's confident

a deal on Brexit can be reached,

0:40:520:40:55

despite hopes of a breakthrough

on the question of the Irish border

0:40:550:40:57

being dashed yesterday.

0:40:570:40:58

But can the Prime Minister

find a solution that's

0:40:580:41:09

A London cloaked in the ashy fog

of Industrial Revolution.

0:41:110:41:13

The same view hot and

cold in fading light.

0:41:130:41:16

If you are searching

for a picture of Parliament,

0:41:160:41:18

it is probably Monet's Thames series

you see in your mind's eye.

0:41:180:41:25

The father of the Impressionists,

Claude Monet, spent three

0:41:250:41:28

winters in London painting

the Palace of Westminster.

0:41:280:41:30

This is the fist time

so many of the Thames series

0:41:300:41:34

have been in one place

for nearly 50 years.

0:41:340:41:41

He only painted the Houses

of Parliament in late

0:41:410:41:45

afternoon and at sunset.

0:41:450:41:48

He was very disciplined.

0:41:480:41:49

He left the Savoy at usually four

o'clock, walked along the Thames

0:41:490:41:55

and set up his easel on a covered

terrace in St Thomas's Hospital.

0:41:550:42:00

Caroline Corbeaut-Parsons

is the curator of the

0:42:000:42:02

Impressionists in London.

0:42:020:42:05

Monet painted the Houses

of Parliament for the first

0:42:050:42:07

time during his exile

during the Franco-Prussian

0:42:070:42:09

war in 1870.

0:42:090:42:10

At that point, the building had only

just officially been completed.

0:42:100:42:15

When he decided to paint it,

he chose a radically new subject,

0:42:150:42:18

which is interesting,

and something we have completely

0:42:180:42:20

lost, because when we look

at that picture, we think,

0:42:200:42:26

"Oh, another picture

of the Houses of Parliament."

0:42:260:42:27

But no, it was something new.

0:42:270:42:32

This exhibition at Tate Britain

is all about how London was viewed

0:42:320:42:35

through the eyes of French artists,

fleeing Paris during the

0:42:350:42:37

Franco-Prussian war in the 1870s.

0:42:370:42:39

They came to London

because Paris was in ruins

0:42:390:42:42

and they were looking

for rich patrons.

0:42:420:42:48

They would have a lasting impact

on the British art scene.

0:42:480:42:55

I think if you look at French

guides, London guides

0:42:550:42:57

in French at the time,

they all comment on the sheer mass

0:42:570:43:02

of the Houses of Parliament,

and the amount of money that British

0:43:020:43:05

taxpayers, I guess, at the time

had to pay for this,

0:43:050:43:08

and I think it must have really

struck them at a time when Paris

0:43:080:43:15

was, you know, still in ruins.

0:43:150:43:18

And so it was the power

of the British Empire,

0:43:180:43:20

air thick with smoke,

that so fascinated Monet

0:43:200:43:22

and his contemporaries.

0:43:220:43:23

Of course London was very

polluted at that stage,

0:43:230:43:25

and there were actually more people

in Central London than now,

0:43:250:43:28

so it was very, very busy.

0:43:280:43:31

There were, he said, purple fogs,

brown fogs, green fogs,

0:43:310:43:40

fogs of every single colour,

and this is reflected in the variety

0:43:400:43:42

of colours that you find,

you know, in his Houses

0:43:420:43:45

of Parliament paintings.

0:43:450:43:46

The exhibition runs

until May next year.

0:43:460:43:50

We're joined now by the art dealer

and presenter of Fake or Fortune,

0:43:500:43:53

Philip Mould.

0:43:530:43:56

Welcome. It is a far cry from the

sun lit lily ponds we are used to

0:43:560:44:01

from Monet.

He loved London and I

think the impressionists though, are

0:44:010:44:07

distinctive in that respect. They

sought alternative subject matter,

0:44:070:44:12

they love gardens and railways and

smoke and industrialism. That is

0:44:120:44:17

what they are about. That is what

making them so exciting as their

0:44:170:44:21

brush strokes.

Indeed. They are

beautiful paintings. Do you think

0:44:210:44:25

they are beautiful?

Unquestionably,

it is rather curious it took a

0:44:250:44:31

Frenchman with his 19 canvases of

the Palace of Westminster, to

0:44:310:44:34

immortalise it so beautifully.

Yes,

and why? Was there a political

0:44:340:44:38

statement as well as the brush

strokes?

I suspect there was. These

0:44:380:44:43

are exhibited in 1904. In that the

entente cordiale was signed, and I

0:44:430:44:48

suspect what could have been a

rather unsettling symbol of imperil

0:44:480:44:56

live was rather cosy.

What do you

think it said about London and the

0:44:560:45:00

country at the time, being painted

by Monet.

It is ironic, our

0:45:000:45:06

pollution was a marvellous catalyst

to a certain type of impressionist.

0:45:060:45:11

What is it? It is a sensual

response, it is articulating what is

0:45:110:45:16

in front of you but filing it. There

was something about dirt and smog

0:45:160:45:22

and fog and that view that was up

lifting for Monet, and he captured

0:45:220:45:26

it. I think he saw the opportunity

in London to do something he hadn't

0:45:260:45:32

done before. I think it made a Dame

sight more successful image nan a

0:45:320:45:40

water lily.

What do you think, are

you going to see it.

Yes, art is

0:45:400:45:47

political, on some of the most

powerful paintings, as you know

0:45:470:45:56

well, Picasso and Goya.

This is

Monet and the Houses of Parliament?

0:45:560:46:00

We need to take art seriously.

It is

very interesting you should say

0:46:000:46:05

that, politics can be ephemeral but

great art is about endurance, when

0:46:050:46:09

you put them together it can be

explosive, and I remember when I was

0:46:090:46:17

advising the House of Commons arts

committee, and Tony Banks was chair,

0:46:170:46:22

they had just received a good sum of

money to commission a statue of

0:46:220:46:27

Margaret Thatcher for members lobby,

and the members of the committee who

0:46:270:46:31

were predominantly Labour said over

our dead body.

0:46:310:46:37

Tony Banks, who understood the power

of art and politics, knew it had to

0:46:370:46:43

be done and swung the day and said,

goodness' sake, we have to pull

0:46:430:46:47

something then come the revolution!

Was Monet actually carrying out a

0:46:470:46:52

rather gentle viewer politics with

those paintings of the Houses of

0:46:520:46:55

Parliament -- view of politics?

Yes,

he was, let's not forget just hope

0:46:550:47:03

wonderfully uplifting, Ed official

and historical this masterpiece of

0:47:030:47:06

secular Gothic is. I mean, it is big

then and a lot of other things

0:47:060:47:14

beside -- Big Ben. I don't think you

can escape from the sort of iconic

0:47:140:47:17

power, the totemic power of that.

So

was it radical of Monet other time?

0:47:170:47:22

I think what was radical about

Impressionism and impressionists as

0:47:220:47:27

they were looking for alternative

subject matter and he found, in

0:47:270:47:33

London, next to the Thames, in

bricks, mortar and through a veil of

0:47:330:47:38

smog, just the most perfect thing.

He had me there. Thank you very

0:47:380:47:43

much.

0:47:430:47:44

It's been an exciting morning not

only because of all the Brexit news,

0:47:440:47:47

but also because England have been

involved in a gripping run chase

0:47:470:47:50

against Australia on day four

of the second Ashes Test.

0:47:500:47:53

And I have absolutely no idea

what most of that means.

0:47:530:47:57

I have an idea of some of it.

0:47:570:47:58

But luckily Elizabeth does.

0:47:580:48:02

Do I?

0:48:020:48:03

Thanks, Jo.

0:48:030:48:04

Yes, all eyes in the cricketing

world are focused

0:48:040:48:06

on the Adelaide Oval ground,

0:48:060:48:08

where England and Australia

are battling it out.

0:48:080:48:10

But because the television rights

to show the Ashes are fiercely

0:48:100:48:12

fought over by broadcasters,

the action is only available

0:48:120:48:15

to view by those willing

to pay a subscription.

0:48:150:48:17

Well, MPs are calling for that

to change, and for big sporting

0:48:170:48:21

events like the Ashes to once again

be broadcast on terrestrial,

0:48:210:48:24

free-to-view, television.

0:48:240:48:27

Leading the charge is the Labour MP

John Grogan, who joins us

0:48:270:48:30

from our very own Daily Politics

cricket ground,

0:48:300:48:34

and with him is the cricketing

legend, Henry Blofeld.

0:48:340:48:41

Welcome to you both. John, could you

start by telling me what you are

0:48:410:48:45

actually looking to change?

Well,

cricket is like great art, really,

0:48:450:48:50

it is part of our heritage and it

has been hidden away for 15 years on

0:48:500:48:55

subscription TV and it means kids

are not inspired to play the game.

0:48:550:48:58

The number of kids playing cricket

has been going down, more kids

0:48:580:49:03

recognise a worldwide wrestler than

the England cricket captain in a

0:49:030:49:06

recent survey, so we do have a law

in our country that says certain

0:49:060:49:11

events should be on free to air TV

and at least I think the highlights

0:49:110:49:15

of all Ashes series home and away

should be on free to air TV. The

0:49:150:49:20

home series is, certainly the away

series should be, so when the kids

0:49:200:49:24

come home from school tomorrow, they

will be able to see the highlights

0:49:240:49:27

of two Yorkshireman scoring

centuries to win the second Test.

It

0:49:270:49:34

is all about the Yorkshiremen. Henry

blow felt, do you agree, not having

0:49:340:49:39

these sort of competitions on

domestic TV affects our view of them

0:49:390:49:43

and our ability to join as a nation

and enjoy them?

Yes, and in all

0:49:430:49:49

possible worlds, we would want free

to air cricket on television but

0:49:490:49:53

there is the awful dichotomy, which

is money. The ECB, the England and

0:49:530:49:58

Wales Cricket Board, have done a

deal with Sky and the BBC which

0:49:580:50:02

begins, I think, in Twenty20 and

that is worth 1.1 billion. But I am

0:50:020:50:10

with you absolutely entirely with

this, it would be lovely if the

0:50:100:50:16

highlights could be seen every night

on free to air. I don't think we'll

0:50:160:50:19

ever get the actuality because of

the money but I think highlights

0:50:190:50:22

would be terrific. I think it is

utterly wrong if youngsters cannot

0:50:220:50:26

see their heroes in action on the

day they have done so well or so

0:50:260:50:29

badly.

We are keeping everything

crossed at the moment, aren't we?

0:50:290:50:34

John, that is a good point from

Henry, essentially, this is a

0:50:340:50:39

commercial decision and this money

is very, very important to cricket

0:50:390:50:42

and its future.

It is, I mean, it is

a balance, isn't it? Cricket would

0:50:420:50:49

probably recognise they have the

balance slightly wrong. Most boards,

0:50:490:50:54

tennis, rugby union, football, have

some coverage on free to air and

0:50:540:50:58

cricket when the other way to 15

years. Henry is right, we are

0:50:580:51:03

looking forward to three years' time

when there will be live cricket back

0:51:030:51:07

on the BBC and they have promised to

give it the full coverage like the

0:51:070:51:10

FA Cup and for the first time, there

will be some county cricket and A20

0:51:100:51:15

internationals and it can't come

soon enough.

Henry, the Ashes

0:51:150:51:20

series, where does it come on the

list of great sporting events which

0:51:200:51:22

mark win over world cups, we know

about Wimbledon, where does the

0:51:220:51:25

Ashes stand?

What a question to ask

me! It stands right at the very top!

0:51:250:51:32

But wouldn't it be wonderful if we

were to get up and win this match

0:51:320:51:36

tomorrow, though the odds must be

against. One has so often seen sides

0:51:360:51:39

chasing big totals and look as

though they might but they never

0:51:390:51:43

quite do. If they did, every child

in the country is going to want to

0:51:430:51:47

see Joe Root celebrating his 200 and

Jonny Bairstow, maybe he can get a

0:51:470:51:52

100 and celebrated with a headbutt,

who knows?

Who in deed, hendry can I

0:51:520:51:59

push you, you say it looks unlikely.

What is your prediction?

My

0:51:590:52:07

prediction is Australia will win,

although I hope I am wrong, I always

0:52:070:52:10

hope I'm wrong when I say things

like that but logic must look

0:52:100:52:14

towards Australia. But occasionally,

logic falls flat on its face and

0:52:140:52:17

let's hope it does tomorrow in

Adelaide.

Life is full of surprises.

0:52:170:52:22

I was surprised to win my seat in

June and I expected to be watching

0:52:220:52:27

Yorkshire County Cricket, instead of

which I was an MP, I think we will

0:52:270:52:31

win by one wicket.

Two mentions of

Yorkshire in one interview, thank

0:52:310:52:34

you very much both of you. Not sure

if you are a cricket fan, Vince, but

0:52:340:52:40

can I get your prediction?

I am

entirely with John Grogan on the

0:52:400:52:44

prediction and a basic principle of

terrestrial television. One of my

0:52:440:52:48

earliest memories of childhood is

seeing England humiliate Australia

0:52:480:52:51

and Jim Laker bowling ten wickets in

one innings. These things happen and

0:52:510:52:56

excite you as a child and lived with

you for the rest of your life.

We

0:52:560:52:59

can but hope.

I like the way you didn't ask me for

0:52:590:53:03

my prediction!

0:53:030:53:04

Now, last week, we talked

to East Staffordshire councillor

0:53:040:53:06

Deneice Florence-Jukes.

0:53:060:53:08

She was challenging Debretts to get

rid of what she called the outdated

0:53:080:53:13

advice to call female

councillors "Councillor Mrs".

0:53:130:53:14

Well, she won that battle and

Debretts agreed to make the change.

0:53:140:53:17

But then she turned her attention

to the next front -

0:53:170:53:20

the council itself.

0:53:200:53:21

I asked if she was confident she'd

win a vote to change

0:53:210:53:24

the terminology used there.

0:53:240:53:26

I would hope so.

0:53:260:53:29

There has been a little bit

of resistance to some change

0:53:290:53:31

in certain quarters,

but I hope once they hear my

0:53:310:53:34

argument in full in chambers

on Monday, I'll manage to convince

0:53:340:53:37

them that it's the right move.

0:53:370:53:40

Well, that was last Thursday -

but despite Deneice's

0:53:400:53:42

best efforts last night,

the East Staffordshire Borough

0:53:420:53:44

Council voted to allow women to keep

using the title "Councillor Mrs"

0:53:440:53:49

by 14 votes to 13.

0:53:490:53:57

The winning motion said councillor

should be able to choose how they

0:53:570:54:00

are addressed. We can talk again to

Deneice Florence-Jukes. Are you

0:54:000:54:05

disappointed?

Yes, I am. It is a

blow for sending a clear message to

0:54:050:54:12

the people in the borough that we

are open and forward-thinking and we

0:54:120:54:15

are not hung up on titles, so it is

a degree of disappointment.

What

0:54:150:54:20

actually happened at the meeting?

I

tabled my original motion and an

0:54:200:54:25

amendment was put in to basically

delete my idea that all councillors

0:54:250:54:31

should be called by a gender neutral

title of councillor, followed by

0:54:310:54:38

their names, and an amendment was

put in to say councillor should be

0:54:380:54:41

allowed to choose what they call.

Which I can agree with to a certain

0:54:410:54:46

point, but my argument there is we

are a body and we should stick to

0:54:460:54:51

our title of councillor.

Right, but

as you say, there isn't anything

0:54:510:54:55

wrong with freedom of choice, which

is what the council wants to do. We

0:54:550:54:59

have got an e-mail here that says

you e-mailed one of the colleagues

0:54:590:55:03

in the council team requesting that

from time to time on, she should be

0:55:030:55:07

addressed simply as councillor

Florence - Jukes, and that was put

0:55:070:55:15

into effect, so if you want to drop

the title, you can.

It was a bit of

0:55:150:55:21

a battle to drop that title, it

wasn't straightforward. Initially, I

0:55:210:55:25

was told the council had never been

approached about the subject before

0:55:250:55:28

and when I asked for legal

clarification, I was told they do

0:55:280:55:32

indeed follow Dabritz, and it was

only when I challenged it again and

0:55:320:55:36

said significantly can I be called

councillor Florence- Jukes, that

0:55:360:55:39

they allowed it.

It wasn't as

straightforward as it might appear.

0:55:390:55:46

What is your view, Vince Chris Watt

you have a message for East Stafford

0:55:460:55:49

a council?

There is a point behind

etiquette, people know where they

0:55:490:55:57

stand, so you call somebody a chair,

chairperson, chairwoman or a

0:55:570:56:01

chairman, you have a simple set of

rules and avoid a lot of

0:56:010:56:04

embarrassment and get on with the

real business.

Deneice, do you think

0:56:040:56:11

that is right?

I do to a point but

my argument has not been about what

0:56:110:56:14

individual councillors want to be

called, it was about the wider

0:56:140:56:17

message. We are majorly

underrepresented by so many groups

0:56:170:56:21

on the council and it was a way of

putting a message out that if you

0:56:210:56:25

want to enter public life, we are

welcoming, non-discriminatory and

0:56:250:56:29

that was the whole idea behind it,

so to a point I can agree that, you

0:56:290:56:35

know, they should be entitled to be

called what they want but not in a

0:56:350:56:38

public setting. I think the title

councillor is a stand-alone, gender

0:56:380:56:42

neutral, one size fits all title.

And on that basis, I will say thank

0:56:420:56:49

you to you, councillor Deneice

Florence-Jukes. We can get an update

0:56:490:56:52

on the fallout from the Brexit

negotiations yesterday. Here is

0:56:520:56:56

David Davis and his Shadow Keir

Starmer in the House of Commons in

0:56:560:56:59

the last few moments.

Our aims in

this negotiation remain as they have

0:56:590:57:03

always been, in particular on the

issue of Northern Ireland and

0:57:030:57:07

Ireland, we have been clear we want

to protect all elements of the Good

0:57:070:57:11

Friday Belfast Agreement to maintain

the Common travel area and

0:57:110:57:14

associated rights. We want to ensure

there is no hard border between

0:57:140:57:18

Ireland and Northern Ireland. We

recognise as we ex-it we must

0:57:180:57:22

respect the integrity of the EU

single market and the customs union,

0:57:220:57:25

equally clear we need to respect the

integrity of the United Kingdom.

It

0:57:250:57:31

is one thing to go to Brussels and

fallout with those on the other side

0:57:310:57:36

of negotiating table. It is quite

another to go to Brussels and

0:57:360:57:39

fallout with those supposedly on

your own side of negotiating table.

0:57:390:57:44

Arguments continuing in the House of

Commons.

0:57:440:57:46

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:57:460:57:50

The question was which party

leader has taken part

0:57:500:57:52

in a charity Christmas song,

singing the Mariah Carey classic

0:57:520:57:55

All I Want For Christmas?

0:57:550:57:57

I haven't a clue but I would guess

that Nicola Sturgeon.

You are wrong,

0:58:070:58:11

I'm afraid, it is the DUP leader

Arlene Foster.

0:58:110:58:14

Yes, the DUP leader has taken part

in a charity single -

0:58:140:58:17

along with other MLAs -

for the Northern Irish charity

0:58:170:58:19

Aspire NI, which helps

children in poverty.

0:58:190:58:21

So let's have a look

at her in action.

0:58:210:58:23

# I just want you for my own

0:58:230:58:25

# More than you could ever know...

0:58:250:58:32

She's got a good boys, hasn't she

was there a bit of...

On the basis

0:58:320:58:38

of that, politician should keep out

of music.

I thought it was quite

0:58:380:58:44

impressive.

Being charitable, this

is Christmas.

I think she might have

0:58:440:58:48

had a little bit of help. Thank you

to all of my guests but particularly

0:58:480:58:53

to Vince Cable for being guest of

the day. One o'clock is starting on

0:58:530:58:57

BBC One and we are back tomorrow

with PMQs.

0:58:570:59:00

Jo Coburn is joined for the whole programme by deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats Jo Swinson. They look at the fallout from the Brexit talks on Monday and what happens now, plus a look at how the Lib Dems are doing and what their Brexit strategy is. And with the Ashes underway, Labour MP John Grogan is reviving his campaign for them to be returned to terrestrial TV.