01/02/2018 Daily Politics


01/02/2018

Jo Coburn presents the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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The Prime Minister, speaking

on her official trip to China,

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says she will oppose a move to give

EU citizens coming to the UK full

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residency rights after we've

left the European Union.

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So will she win the latest battle?

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MPs vote to move out of Parliament

to allow a multi-billion pound

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refurbishment to take place.

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But it won't happen

until at least 2025!

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Will that be too late?

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Should MPs with newborn

babies be able to vote

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in Parliamentary debates by proxy?

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We speak to one Labour MP who's just

returned from maternity leave.

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And he was the man in charge

of making Ukip look good...

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Not always entirely successfully!

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We speak to one of Westminster's

most flamboyant characters, Ukip's

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outgoing press man Gawain Towler.

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All that in the next hour

and with us for the whole

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of the programme today

is the former Polish Foreign

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Minister Radek Sikorski.

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Welcome back to the Daily Politics.

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Hello.

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The former Chancellor,

George Osborne, has added his weight

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to calls for Britain to remain

inside the European Customs

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Union after Brexit.

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In her Florence speech last year,

the Prime Minister made it clear

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that the Government wanted to come

out of the customs union in order

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to be able to pursue

an independent trade policy.

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But speaking to the Today

programme this morning,

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Mr Osborne said it was a risk.

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I do think we now face

a series of choices

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about the kind of Brexit

we

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want and we have a much clearer idea

of the consequences of, for example,

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leaving with no deal with

the European Union or leaving the

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customs union.

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These are the choices

that the country, but above all,

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Parliament now face.

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And I think we should

look very, very

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carefully at the advantages of, for

example, leaving the customs union

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and potentially doing

a trade deal...

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In the Evening Standard,

where you wrote an editorial...

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Let me just finish my point.

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We should look clearly

at the costs and benefits

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of, for example, leaving the customs

union and doing less trade with

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Europe, versus what we might gain

from doing a trade deal with America

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and at the moment, the sums don't

stack up for that kind of decision.

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George Osborne there. Do you agree

with him?

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Yes, I think is entirely right and

he's also vindicated in his warnings

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when he was Chancellor about the

long-term economic effects of

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Brexit. It's going to be negative.

In what way? Because of the legal

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analysis papers? Ryder because of

the government doing Brexit so there

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is Ane Brun or economic effect will

this country that will be negative.

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The government has said one of the

scenarios that was not included was

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a bespoke deal.

It doesn't exist.

Not at the moment but you don't

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think it's a possibility from the

European Union?

Britain has to

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choose from the available models of

relationships. Customs union is the

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turkey model, full single market

membership is the Norway model, free

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trade agreement is the Canada model

and it will be one of these.

He says

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the sums don't add up but the

international trade secretary Liam

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Fox, who is tasked with scoping out

these free trade agreements, says

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over time, although it can't be done

immediately, those free trade

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agreements could replace much of any

trade that might be lost with the

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EU.

His own department said that

over 15 years, it will be bad, what

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will happen

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will happen in 50 years is anybody's

guess.

But these were drafts, as the

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government said, and forecasts have

been wrong, as you know, including

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the ones that George Osborne and

David Cameron put out any immediate

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aftermath of the referendum that the

economy would struggle.

But you are

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leaving the largest free trade area

in the world so it doesn't quite

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make sense.

Do you think the

government will change course?

I so

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because any relationship short of

full membership is worse for this

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country. Membership is a privileged

relationship. Britain aspired to

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join, was rejected, applied again,

was then admitted and has done

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extremely well. I mean, in the

1970s, Britain was not exactly a

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success story. It is a shame but I

think there is still room for some

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damage control. The customs union

makes sense not only for economic

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reasons but also because it then

limit the number of checks that you

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have to do across the island of

Ireland. So both politically and

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economically, I think it is a

sensible solution.

How are EU

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leaders, you no doubt keep in touch

with some of the senior politicians

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across the European Union, how do

they view it from their perspective,

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the pace of negotiations and the

substance of the British position so

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far?

They don't. Brexit is on the

continent seen as a nuisance and a

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side issue. Europe has more

important issues, like the Eurozone

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providing growth in Europe --

reviving growth. The issue for

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member states on the continent has

been delegated to the commission, as

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far as they are concerned. The

negotiating mandate has been granted

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to the chief negotiator. So far,

Britain is adjusting to that

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negotiating mandate.

Although there

are noises for the Italians, for

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example, who say there should be

flexible deal and we need to get on

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with the trade deal so is it true to

say it is a nuisance?

It is the EU

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system and successive British

governments have fallen prey the

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fact that they go to capitals and

everyone is very nice and polite and

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everybody likes Britain and then

just these ambassadors in Brussels,

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who take instructions from their

national capitals, takes a pricing

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decisions.

Do you think the

government will take any notice of

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what George Osborne says, bearing in

mind he's been a thorn in the side

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of the government, he's been very

critical of Theresa May, of course.

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Should we listen to what he had to

say?

I'm detecting a bit of a wobble

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in the Cabinet. Wasn't it a minister

who said not everything can be

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achieved as far as Brexit purists

are concerned? So perhaps as the

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politicians are learning what the EU

is actually about and what the

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consequences will be, hopefully

realism is beginning to prevail.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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Matt Hancock, the new Digital,

Culture, Media and Sport Secretary

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is, as you would expect,

embracing the digital

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age, so our question

for today is, what's he done?

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Has he A, started a podcast,

B, created his own app,

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C, become a YouTube star or

D, become an Instagram influencer?

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At the end of the show, Radek

will give us the correct answer.

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He is up-to-the-minute of these

things!

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So, the first battle in the second

stage of the Brexit negotiations

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with the EU became clear this week,

over the rights of EU

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citizens arriving in the UK

during any transition period.

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The remaining 27 EU member states

set out their negotiating position

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on Monday, prompting a response

from the Prime Minister,

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who is on a trade visit to China.

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The latest immigration figures show

that the number of EU migrants

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coming to the UK fell 19% to 230,000

in the 12 months since

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the Brexit referendum.

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And at the same time,

there was also a marked increase

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in the number of EU citizens leaving

the UK, totalling 123,000.

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The UK will leave

the EU in March 2019,

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but there is then expected to be

a transition period

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of up to two years.

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As part of the Phase 1

Brexit negotiations,

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which concluded in December,

the government agreed that all EU

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nationals who have been in the UK

for more than five years will be

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granted settled status,

giving them indefinite leave

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to remain with the same access

to public services as now.

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On Monday, the EU said it expects

existing rules on freedom

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of movement for EU citizens to apply

in full until the end

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of the transition phase.

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But speaking during her trade trip

to China, Theresa May

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said that she was "clear

there is a difference" between those

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people who arrive prior to the UK

leaving the EU in March 2019

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and those who arrive

after that date.

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The government is due to bring

an Immigration Bill before

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Parliament at an unspecified date

later this year.

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And they have commissioned

the Migration Advisory Committee

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to examine how EU migration affects

the labour market, but that is not

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due to report until September.

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Well, earlier, Brexit

Secretary David Davis

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was answering questions from MPs.

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Here's a flavour of what happened.

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Can he make it clear if EU citizens

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coming to the UK during

the transition period should be

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eligible for settled

status?

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The Prime Minister says

they will not be eligible.

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Is that a red line or is

the government willing to

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compromise on that?

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I thought that nothing

was agreed until everything

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was agreed.

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Secretary of State.

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Well, he's right, nothing

is agreed until everything

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is agreed but the point,

what I would point out to him

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is that in the joint report, which

we concluded and got

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agreement on in December,

the European Union agreed

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that the transition date, the end

date for ongoing permanent residence

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rights, not possibilities, rights

will be March 2019.

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Our Europe reporter

Adam Fleming joins us now.

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A clear difference between the EU

and Britain in terms of what happens

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to EU citizens and their rights

during transition.

Yeah, so it boils

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down to something quite technical

which is what was actually agreed by

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both sides in their joint report

that they wrote up that was signed

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by Theresa May and Jean-Claude

Juncker at that dramatic week in

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December. The UK points to paragraph

eight, I think it is, which says all

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this kicks in, the stuff about

citizens rights, settled status,

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applying for that, having to

register, that kicks in the day

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after Brexit day, March the 29th,

2019. That was what David Davis was

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referring to and that is what the

Brits said, "That is what we signed

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up to". But the EU said if you read

paragraph five carefully, everything

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can be adapted and changed and

renegotiated if it is required

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during the talks about the

transition period. The EU says, yes,

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you signed up to that date at that

point but things are different now

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because we are negotiating a

transition period and the EU is very

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clear that will be citizens rights

stuff does not kick in until the end

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of the transition period, December

31, 2020 and that is the crux of the

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disagreement which will have to be

hammered out by both sides in next

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few weeks when they finally sit down

and start settling the terms of the

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transition period. The EU is very

clear up what they are offering.

If

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that is what they are saying, they

are not going to move but it is a

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negotiation, as you said so do you

think there will have to be, reminds

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over this on both sides?

So there

there will have to be compromised.

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There's a difference of opinion in

Brussels when you ask people about

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this. Some people think that was put

in a negotiating directives by

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Michel Barnier at the EU and it's an

impossible ask for the UK so it is

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designed to be negotiated away so

the UK can claim a win. That is the

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cynical theory about what is going

on. Then you get the idealist theory

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which is certainly amongst people

like MEPs in the European

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Parliament, which is that free

movement is such an part of EU law,

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such a fundamental thing about what

the EU is about, and that the

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transition period is about the UK

signing up to lock, stock and barrel

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EU law that this is absolutely

something that cannot be compromised

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on so the tension between those two

ideas will be resolved in the next

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few weeks and remember there is a

tension from the UK as well, yes, on

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the one hand, they want to negotiate

a transition period that is good for

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them and is politically palatable

back home on things like free

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movement. But the longer it takes to

actually agree that transition

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period, the less useful it is

because businesses want certainty

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about it as soon as possible so

there is a tension within the UK

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position as well.

Adam, thank you.

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We're joined now by the Conservative

MP Daniel Kawczynski.

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Thank you for joining us. If the UK

space in the single market and the

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customs union during a transition

period, do you accept that we have

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two observe the rules of the club

which includes freedom of movement?

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No, not at all and it is absolutely

essential that when we pull out of

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the European Union in March next

year, the free movement of people

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stops. This was a very important

issue for the British people when we

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voted in a referendum. They expected

us to take back control of the

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borders and our immigration policy

from the moment we leave the

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European Union and that is what has

to happen.

So we are going for a

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sort of have your cake and eat it

which is what we want the benefits

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of staying in a single market and

Customs union during the transition

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period but without freedom of

movement, which, as you say, many

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people voted on in a referendum?

This is part of the negotiating

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process and we don't yet know the

final deal but I would say we are a

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very important country, a permanent

member of the UN security council

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and we have the right to negotiate

hard on behalf of the country. I was

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disappointed what Radek said before

when in my view, he was being rather

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disrespectful to the UK in the sense

that 95% of the world's growth is

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going to come... 95% of gross is

going to come from outside the

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European Union, not the European

Union and we have every right to

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negotiate our own trade agreements

rather than being hamstrung by these

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people.

Britain is being hamstrung

by you and colleagues in the EU, do

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you understand why it is so

important?

I'm very surprised that

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someone who claims to represent the

Polish community in this country

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wants to limit its rights and the

rights of EU citizens and the Polish

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people are the largest group in this

country to continue to live in this

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country. That is a peculiar position

to take but it is the outcome of

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Brexit.

Right but Britain leaves in

March next year. Surely there are

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changes to the relationship that

Britain has with the EU, including

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changes to the automatic right to

stay or settled status of people?

0:15:000:15:05

There is no automatic right to stay.

I'm EU citizen in this country and I

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don't have the right of abode in

Britain. It is conditional, it is

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movement of labour. I can stay here

if I have a job. If I don't have a

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job and I start claiming benefits, I

can be deported from this country

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after three months. If you want to

deport EU citizens who are a drain

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on the public exchequer, you can do

it. You don't have to leave the

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European Union.

What is your

response to changes to that during

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the transition period?

It looks like

the automatic right of abode is

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actually an enhancement of the

rights of some immigrants. But look,

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it looks like an attempt to claim

victory where there isn't one.

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What do you mean?

If you claim EU

citizens lose the right of abode....

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If they haven't got the right to

have settled status, which EU

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citizens have the right to claim or

apply for, will that be a red line

0:16:030:16:07

for the EU?

The transition period

will hopefully be quite short, two

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years, then a big stumbling block,

but there are big -- bigger issues.

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Is it a red line for you, if Michel

Barnier says as they've set out in

0:16:180:16:23

the document for the transition that

this is a must, that EU citizens

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should have the right to apply for

settled status and, during the

0:16:280:16:33

transition period and bring family

members, will that be a red lines

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are you?

It is a red line squared,

and absolutely unacceptable. You are

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playing a populist card. Of course

we want to speak -- of course we

0:16:440:16:51

want to celebrate the contributions

of the 1 million Polish people

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contributing to the society.

But you

want to diminish the rights of

0:16:540:16:57

anyone who comes from Poland during

the transition period?

Those people

0:16:570:17:01

in the UK before the referendum, the

Prime Minister has stated they have

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every right to remain.

And the ones

before March 2019.

They came to the

0:17:050:17:12

UK under the premise they thought we

were part of the European Union. Of

0:17:120:17:15

course there will be changes as we

pull out of the European Union and

0:17:150:17:20

regain sovereignty and control.

So

people who came here when Britain

0:17:200:17:24

were not a member of a European

Union will be able to stay?

It was a

0:17:240:17:28

member in 1978 when my family came.

Lucky you.

In terms of a transitory

0:17:280:17:33

-- transition, it is a transition,

and Britain is supposed to be moving

0:17:330:17:38

to full departure from the EU in

terms of single market and customs

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union if the government goes through

with what it has said, so why can

0:17:410:17:47

the UK not set up its own rules with

regard to free mint -- freedom of

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movement?

It can, but look at the

figures more carefully. You are

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counting foreign students in those

net migration figures. I attended

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one of these wonderful universities,

and this is your success story but

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you are portraying this as a defeat.

On that issue, should they still be

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included in those figures?

This is

currently being debated within the

0:18:110:18:17

Conservative party.

But what do you

think? Should shoot and figures be

0:18:170:18:21

included?

I think they should, yes.

-- student figures.

Why? There are

0:18:210:18:27

many people who come here to study

who ultimately end up staying after

0:18:270:18:31

their studies finish. Those people

need to be taken into consideration.

0:18:310:18:36

We have let the people down so many

times with the figures about people

0:18:360:18:41

coming into the UK, and we need to

get a grip and demonstrate we have

0:18:410:18:44

control over our borders. As always,

Mister Sikorski is trying to have

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his cake and eat it. The UK has

handed over £400 billion to the

0:18:490:18:54

European Union since we joined that

have been an extremely generous

0:18:540:18:58

country to the European junior --

European Union. We have done all

0:18:580:19:03

sorts of things. We have protected

Poland by sending soldiers to

0:19:030:19:07

Poland, and we want a NATO base

there and a strong relationship with

0:19:070:19:10

bilateral partners but he still

wants to give as a hard time. That

0:19:100:19:14

is not the way to enter a

constructive debate about the post

0:19:140:19:17

Brexit world.

Is this about

punishing Britain? Michel Barnier

0:19:170:19:22

and Jean Claude Juncker say it is

not. But it is a decision that

0:19:220:19:27

Britain made, so is very punitive

element?

I think this fantasy should

0:19:270:19:34

be realised in full, to the extent

that the radicals wanted it, so the

0:19:340:19:41

outcome of the experiment is no.

We

have heard the EU negotiating

0:19:410:19:47

opinion on the transition period. Is

there a problem that the Prime

0:19:470:19:51

Minister is reacting to the EU time

and again rather than setting out

0:19:510:19:55

her own negotiating position first?

I'm very honoured and delighted to

0:19:550:19:59

have joined the European research

group which Jacob Rees Mogg chairs,

0:19:590:20:05

and I think that group is really

instilling backbone into the entire

0:20:050:20:10

Conservative Parliamentary party and

we are pushing for a very clear

0:20:100:20:13

message to be given to us by the

government as to what sort of post

0:20:130:20:17

Brexit relationship they want to

have. The uncertainty at the moment

0:20:170:20:21

has gone on for too long, and we

need to get down to the nub of the

0:20:210:20:26

relationship we want. We have talked

about the Canada model which Michel

0:20:260:20:30

Barnier has offered us, a Canada

plus model, and that could be one of

0:20:300:20:34

the best solutions for us.

You said

a vacuum has been created. Do you

0:20:340:20:39

think Theresa May should have set

out more clearly what the end state

0:20:390:20:42

should be in terms of the

relationship between Britain and the

0:20:420:20:47

EU?

The person to blame and all of

this is David Cameron who did no

0:20:470:20:51

preparatory work whatsoever in the

run-up to the referendum and all of

0:20:510:20:55

that work should have taken place at

that time and, unfortunately, Mister

0:20:550:21:00

Cameron decided in his determination

to convince people to stay in the

0:21:000:21:04

European Union that no preparatory

work was done which is why the Prime

0:21:040:21:07

Minister is having to work that

hard.

He is the former prime

0:21:070:21:12

ministers. But do you think these

negotiations can effectively be

0:21:120:21:17

delivered by Theresa May?

Absolutely

and we must stand by the Prime

0:21:170:21:19

Minister.

Only with support from

your group rather than interference?

0:21:190:21:25

The group is only saying what

Theresa May outlined in the

0:21:250:21:28

Lancaster house speech and Florent

's speech. We are absolutely lists

0:21:280:21:34

because we are peddling what she

outlined very clearly in those two

0:21:340:21:39

speeches.

Are you worried about

drift and that Britain could still

0:21:390:21:42

end up being a customs union in the

EU?

Of course I am worried. But I

0:21:420:21:47

have every confidence in this

country 's ability to negotiate a

0:21:470:21:51

fair settlement with the European

Union and unfortunately there are

0:21:510:21:53

many people, and it seems as if

Mister Sikorski is one of them, who

0:21:530:21:58

wants to punish the UK for daring to

pull out of this thing which is

0:21:580:22:03

going to be a supranational state. I

know that in my lifetime Poland will

0:22:030:22:09

also potentially pull out of the

European Union.

Let's talk about

0:22:090:22:14

Poland, because do you support the

EU measures, the sanctions against

0:22:140:22:18

the governing party in Poland whom

the EU have accused of threatening

0:22:180:22:25

to dismantle democracy and threats

to the rule of law?

It is a tough

0:22:250:22:28

one. We are a club of democratic

nations and we freely trying --

0:22:280:22:34

signed up to the treaties which say

that the rule of law should prevail

0:22:340:22:37

and it is also a fundamental

principle of the European Union that

0:22:370:22:44

institutions in member states should

trust one another. If we could not

0:22:440:22:51

trust the courts in another member

state, the security of legal

0:22:510:22:55

interchanges between member states

become difficult.

Do you trust the

0:22:550:22:59

law and Justice party to do the

right thing?

They have subjugated

0:22:590:23:05

the Constitutional Tribunal. Poland

has no effective review of

0:23:050:23:07

legislation any more and politicians

have now gained influence over the

0:23:070:23:14

appointment of judges. Whether the

EU can usefully affect that from

0:23:140:23:19

outside, I have my doubts. It is a

very difficult issue.

Let's leave it

0:23:190:23:25

there. Thank you both for coming in.

0:23:250:23:26

And for more reporting

and analysis of Brexit,

0:23:260:23:28

check out the BBC News

website, that's bbc.co.uk/Brexit.

0:23:280:23:35

Today, the Commons could pass

a motion that would allow MPs

0:23:350:23:37

who become parents to nominate

a colleague to cast

0:23:370:23:41

their vote for them

when they are on parental leave.

0:23:410:23:45

Previously, new mums

and dads could only ask

0:23:450:23:47

the whips for a "pair",

where an MP from the opposing party

0:23:470:23:49

would also miss a vote.

0:23:490:23:51

One of those MPs supporting

the change is Emma Reynolds,

0:23:510:23:53

who has just returned

from maternity leave.

0:23:530:23:55

She joins us now from Central Lobby.

0:23:550:23:56

And I'm delighted to say she's also

brought along her baby boy, Theo!

0:23:560:24:03

Hello, Emma. I am sure Theo is an

avid viewer of the Daily Politics.

0:24:030:24:07

He is, he's one of the only -- it is

one of the only things we want.

0:24:070:24:13

Hello, Theo. Well done for bringing

him here. Tell us a little bit about

0:24:130:24:17

what would happen and how it would

change for parents like you.

The

0:24:170:24:22

point of today's debate is that in

our chamber we have extended rights

0:24:220:24:26

to mums and dads or shared parental

leave and improve maternity rights

0:24:260:24:30

but we have not extended those

rights to MPs. At the moment it is a

0:24:300:24:35

gentleman 's agreement between the

whips, and they have been generous,

0:24:350:24:38

but what if they stopped being

generous and what about dads as well

0:24:380:24:42

as mums? Today is about allowing a

new mum or dad to ask a colleague to

0:24:420:24:47

cash their vote as a proxy instead

of voting in that time that you take

0:24:470:24:52

maternity leave or parental leave --

cast their vote.

How would that

0:24:520:24:57

transform your life in terms of

being a mum and an MP? A lot of MPs

0:24:570:25:01

would be deemed to have missed votes

while they were on maternity leave

0:25:010:25:05

and constituents might not have

known.

Many of my colleagues who

0:25:050:25:08

went before me and gave birth while

they were MPs have been criticised,

0:25:080:25:12

and so was I, although I managed to

get them to remove it from the

0:25:120:25:19

website, because the reason I have a

low voting record is because I have

0:25:190:25:23

been maternity leave. Baby Theo was

born four days the Prime Minister

0:25:230:25:28

called the snap election.

Great

timing.

Yes, great timing. We were

0:25:280:25:32

hoping it would be late April. The

idea is you have a more formal

0:25:320:25:38

system for MPs so MPs who do take

maternity leave, or dad to take

0:25:380:25:42

parental leave are able to represent

their constituents by voting in

0:25:420:25:46

Parliament through one of their

colleagues.

So is it going to be

0:25:460:25:50

passed today, do you think?

You know

the House of Commons and the weird

0:25:500:25:54

and wonderful ways in which it

works. Today is just the motion and

0:25:540:25:57

then it has to be put forward

formally for consideration, as I

0:25:570:26:01

understand it.

It seems a fairly

sensible idea and will, in some

0:26:010:26:06

ways, bring Parliament up to the

21st century.

Indeed.

Are there

0:26:060:26:11

other things that could be done

though?

Of course, we could start

0:26:110:26:15

having votes at -- stop having votes

at 10:30pm at night, although

0:26:150:26:20

Parliament is a lot more friendly

than it used to be but it is still

0:26:200:26:23

very long hours and lots of

travelling.

You are holding on

0:26:230:26:28

valiantly to Theo looks like he is

trying to escape. What is it like in

0:26:280:26:33

Poland in Parliament there?

We have

these issues too, and I think we

0:26:330:26:39

should be as helpful as possible and

it does not just concerned members,

0:26:390:26:43

I think for voters we should be

helpful in order to include as many

0:26:430:26:48

people as possible so, for example,

in Poland we have the possibility of

0:26:480:26:52

voting by post for disabled people,

for example.

Those are other things,

0:26:520:26:58

and there she is whether baby, and I

see he is desperate to have a run

0:26:580:27:05

around in the Central Lobby. -- with

her baby. How well attended Will the

0:27:050:27:10

debate be to date?

Very well

attended. There are lots of people

0:27:100:27:13

who have given birth in office and

one of our colleagues is pregnant,

0:27:130:27:19

so I just want to say that if young

women are sitting at home and

0:27:190:27:22

thinking about pursuing a career in

politics, don't be put off by the

0:27:220:27:26

long hours and lack of a formal

system for maternity leave because

0:27:260:27:30

we want as many talented women in

politics as possible.

Are you going

0:27:300:27:33

to be speaking in this debate?

I

hope to be. Somebody will be looking

0:27:330:27:38

after Theo.

You can't take him into

the chamber? Do you think that will

0:27:380:27:43

ever change?

I think he would be be

fair. He's a bit of a distraction

0:27:430:27:48

now.

I think you are doing extremely

well.

I think we see a future

0:27:480:27:54

member.

What makes you say that?

He

seems to be enjoying the place.

I

0:27:540:27:59

wonder what it is on the other side

distracting him.

A lot of lovely

0:27:590:28:04

people trying to entertain him. We

are allowed to take him into the

0:28:040:28:07

voting lobby, so that is progress.

And as you say, because the numbers

0:28:070:28:11

have changed, there are more women,

but younger women and younger women

0:28:110:28:15

who are still having children.

Yes,

and also the New Zealand Prime

0:28:150:28:20

Minister who is blazing a trail. A

glass ceiling that has only been

0:28:200:28:26

broken by Benazir Bhutto in the

1990s. She will be the second Prime

0:28:260:28:31

Minister to give birth while in

office, and I think she will be an

0:28:310:28:35

inspiration to women across the

world, hopefully.

How these things

0:28:350:28:39

are becoming normalised. Thank you,

and thank you to you, Theo.

0:28:390:28:44

With just over a year to go

until Brexit, the outlook for EU

0:28:440:28:47

citizens living here in the UK

is still somewhat uncertain.

0:28:470:28:49

It's expected those who've been

here for more than five years

0:28:490:28:52

will be able to apply for permanent

residency, while newcomers will have

0:28:520:28:55

to register under a new scheme.

0:28:550:28:57

But will the UK still be a desirable

place to move to once

0:28:570:29:00

we're out of the EU?

0:29:000:29:01

And will those already

here, want to stay?

0:29:010:29:03

Emma Vardy's been hearing

from Polish ex-pats in Reading.

0:29:030:29:06

Many people from Poland have

made Reading their home,

0:29:080:29:10

and with all the Polish shops

and businesses that have developed

0:29:100:29:14

here along the Oxford Road,

in one sense, the community is well

0:29:140:29:17

established and well catered for.

0:29:170:29:18

But with Brexit around

the corner, could a lot

0:29:180:29:20

of this be about to change?

0:29:200:29:22

Let's go and find out.

0:29:220:29:25

Action!

0:29:280:29:30

Action!

0:29:300:29:31

Hi, my name is Greg.

0:29:310:29:33

When I came to England,

about ten years ago, I started

0:29:330:29:36

working in the hospitality industry.

0:29:360:29:39

And further on, I just became, like,

a supervisor in a Polish shop.

0:29:390:29:42

And when I found out about

the Brexit, the value of the pound

0:29:420:29:45

just dropped drastically.

0:29:450:29:46

We had to raise the prices

but I don't know what to expect

0:29:460:29:49

in the future, after March 2019.

0:29:490:29:52

The newcomers, they are not

going to get those privilege

0:29:530:29:56

that we get when we came here,

ten years, 15 years ago.

0:29:560:30:01

One strawberry.

0:30:010:30:03

Polish doughnuts!

0:30:030:30:07

Hello, my name is Anthony

and this is my wife Dinutha.

0:30:070:30:09

How are you feeling about Brexit?

0:30:090:30:14

Not very well because every food,

every price about the food

0:30:140:30:17

is going slowly up.

0:30:170:30:20

One year ago, you spend 70 quid,

now you spend 100, 120,

0:30:200:30:23

exactly the same products.

0:30:230:30:24

Do you think you will

stay beyond Brexit?

0:30:240:30:28

No, after the Brexit, I am thinking

everything is expensive.

0:30:280:30:30

If I'm not saving

the money, how living?

0:30:300:30:32

Where's my holiday?

0:30:320:30:35

Where is my...

0:30:350:30:35

You understand me, yeah?

0:30:350:30:37

Hi, my name is Anjelica.

0:30:370:30:39

I've been living here for ten years.

0:30:390:30:42

I'm a little bit worried.

0:30:420:30:44

We have a mortgage here.

0:30:440:30:46

We have one daughter.

0:30:460:30:49

She feels most English than Polish!

0:30:490:30:51

But we are still waiting,

what's happening next.

0:30:510:30:55

I think a lot of people

still want to come here.

0:30:550:30:58

But also, a lot of our

clients back to Poland.

0:30:580:31:06

Lots of your customers

are going back?

0:31:070:31:08

Yeah, yeah.

0:31:080:31:09

In Poland, it's much better than,

like, ten years ago.

0:31:090:31:12

The youngest people want back,

you know, I think to start again.

0:31:120:31:15

But people like me,

I think they stay here.

0:31:150:31:20

Many people we spoke to said

they don't think Brexit

0:31:200:31:23

is going to affect their right

to stay, but it's the other things,

0:31:230:31:26

like prices or the availability

of jobs that could make life

0:31:260:31:29

here less attractive in future.

0:31:290:31:35

Emma Vardy, there. Radek Sikorski,

the young woman in the film said

0:31:360:31:40

that many young people are going

back to Poland or they are staying

0:31:400:31:43

in Poland and not coming here. Do

you welcome that?

We have said all

0:31:430:31:49

along as the Polish government,

successive ones, that we want our

0:31:490:31:53

people back. The Polish economy is

doing extremely well. We have

0:31:530:31:56

shortages of labour and we are glad

that people have come here, learned

0:31:560:32:01

English, you know, enjoyed living in

this country but yes, we support

0:32:010:32:06

Polish people returning home.

How

damaging was it when new member

0:32:060:32:11

states, you know, the borders were

opened up and workers were welcomed

0:32:110:32:15

here, they came in large numbers?

How damaging was the brain drain to

0:32:150:32:22

Poland's prospects?

It was an act of

friendship by the Tony Blair

0:32:220:32:25

government but what happened was

that Britain alone in the entire

0:32:250:32:29

European Union opened its labour

market unconditionally which meant

0:32:290:32:32

that everybody and his brother in

Central Europe who wanted to try

0:32:320:32:36

their luck abroad came to Britain.

That is why you got the wave of over

0:32:360:32:40

1 million people. If you had

exercised your seven-year derogation

0:32:400:32:45

period, that way, you would have

spread it...

Do you think Britain

0:32:450:32:50

should have done that?

It was good

for us, and good for the British

0:32:500:32:54

economy, we refurbished London for

you.

Although many people that was

0:32:540:32:58

part of the reason people voted

Leave in the referendum.

In smaller

0:32:580:33:03

towns, the cultural change might

have been unsettling for people.

But

0:33:030:33:08

my question was, how bad was the

brain drain for Poland, the people

0:33:080:33:13

leaving?

We were doing well at that

time and now the economy is doing

0:33:130:33:16

even better. Wages are higher now in

Norway or Germany which are now open

0:33:160:33:20

to Polish labour so it was useful at

the time.

Do you accept that some

0:33:200:33:26

Polish citizens who may be thinking

about what to do post Brexit are

0:33:260:33:31

actually making those decisions not

because of the referendum vote but

0:33:310:33:35

because the prospects are looking

brighter elsewhere?

It is that but

0:33:350:33:40

also, remember, some people were

coming here not just for the money

0:33:400:33:44

but for the open-minded atmosphere,

the friendliness, for learning

0:33:440:33:47

English and some of that

friendliness seems to be less

0:33:470:33:53

because they are beginning to feel

less welcome.

Right, but is that a

0:33:530:33:58

perception because of the vote to

leave? Is there as much a driver

0:33:580:34:02

behind the decisions being made by

communities like the Polish

0:34:020:34:06

community in Britain that actually

it is time to go back to Poland and

0:34:060:34:09

although you say it wasn't always

about economic reasons, that would

0:34:090:34:12

be a big motivation to going home?

Yes, the figures reflect it. I think

0:34:120:34:18

Britain has benefited from the wave

and I hope we will benefit from the

0:34:180:34:27

wave back now.

What was the impact

on Poland when people left? You say

0:34:280:34:31

there was high unemployment but what

was the impact on the country?

The

0:34:310:34:33

remittance payments from Polish

people living in the European Union

0:34:330:34:35

and working were comparable to the

EU transfer payments so about 1

0:34:350:34:39

billion euros per month, quite a

tidy sum.

What do you say to people

0:34:390:34:44

like Boris Johnson who towards the

end of last year unilaterally said

0:34:440:34:48

that the rights of EU citizens,

including Polish citizens, will be

0:34:480:34:52

guaranteed whatever afterwards?

I

doubt that it will be a big issue

0:34:520:34:57

because we have a couple of million

British people on the continent. We

0:34:570:35:02

are both civilised communities. We

will treat one another in a

0:35:020:35:05

civilised way and on the principle

of reciprocity.

All right.

0:35:050:35:10

In the second historic Leave vote

of the last two years,

0:35:100:35:12

MPs yesterday made the decision

to move out of parliament

0:35:120:35:15

to make way for extensive

repairs to be carried out.

0:35:150:35:17

The renovation work is part

of a multi-billion-pound

0:35:170:35:19

modernisation project,

but won't see MPs move out

0:35:190:35:22

until at least 2025.

0:35:220:35:25

But not everyone is convinced

the move is necessary.

0:35:250:35:29

Mr Speaker, this debate

arguably should have taken

0:35:290:35:31

place about 40 years ago.

0:35:310:35:33

The likelihood of a major failure

grows the longer the systems

0:35:330:35:36

are left unaddressed.

0:35:360:35:40

We hear the armageddon scenario,

that we are either going to be

0:35:400:35:43

washed away in slurry,

burned to death or electrocuted

0:35:430:35:45

or something else.

0:35:450:35:46

And yet we have thousands

of visitors from the public

0:35:460:35:49

in this place every day.

0:35:490:35:51

I see no signs to say,

"Welcome to the death trap".

0:35:510:35:55

We are not only asking ourselves

and our staff but also thousands

0:35:550:35:58

of visitors to come to a building

which is not safe.

0:35:580:36:03

It might be an exaggeration to say

that Parliament is a death trap

0:36:030:36:08

but it is not a wild exaggeration.

0:36:080:36:11

Do we really want to take this

enormous political decision that

0:36:110:36:16

at this very difficult time

for our nation, we should move,

0:36:160:36:20

lock, stock and barrel,

from the iconic centre

0:36:200:36:24

of the nation?

0:36:240:36:25

This is the place

where democracy lives.

0:36:250:36:28

It is so easy to say we could move

elsewhere and it would still be

0:36:280:36:32

a parliament but it wouldn't be

the Palace of Westminster.

0:36:320:36:36

If you look at many of the major

houses over the last 100 years that

0:36:360:36:40

have fallen into disrepair,

it is nearly always because there

0:36:400:36:42

has been a massive fire.

0:36:420:36:43

I think we should take

a lesson from that,

0:36:430:36:46

which is that we have to be very,

very cautious in this building.

0:36:460:36:51

And I wouldn't want to be a member

who had voted against taking direct

0:36:510:36:55

and clear action now

when that fire comes.

0:36:550:36:59

I truly wouldn't.

0:36:590:37:05

That was Chris Bryant there, and he

joins us here. He backed the

0:37:050:37:09

amendment.

0:37:090:37:11

He also sat on a joint committee

tasked with investigating

0:37:110:37:14

the various options for repairing

the Palace of Westminster.

0:37:140:37:15

And the Conservative MP John Hayes,

who doesn't think parliamentarians

0:37:150:37:18

should be vacating the building.

0:37:180:37:21

Why not, John Hayes, when you just

heard Damian green, your colleagues

0:37:210:37:25

saying a death trap is not a wild

exaggeration?

It is so

0:37:250:37:30

self-indulgent, isn't it?

Is it?

We

are saying we're going to build an

0:37:300:37:36

alternative edifice stones to from

where we were, a replica chamber at

0:37:360:37:38

a cost of billions and our

constituents will say to us, and I

0:37:380:37:41

think they would say to themselves

in that situation, put up with the

0:37:410:37:46

inconvenience, be with a mess, get

on with the work, do it but for

0:37:460:37:49

heaven sake don't ask us to find an

alternative in the meanwhile.

You

0:37:490:37:53

are being self-indulgent, Chris

Bryant, and there's a big issue on

0:37:530:37:55

the cost the taxpayer in Times of

austerity, is it really necessary?

0:37:550:38:01

It is necessary, it's a UNESCO

listed building, one of the most

0:38:010:38:04

iconic buildings in the world. Most

other countries would look at us and

0:38:040:38:08

say, "You're going to let it fall

into the Thames? That's

0:38:080:38:12

disgraceful!" To be fair, it's not

falling into the Thames but when

0:38:120:38:16

politicians in the early 19th

century didn't take seriously the

0:38:160:38:19

concerns about fire and so on, we

had a massive fire in 1834 which

0:38:190:38:23

lost nearly all of the medieval

buildings and the truth of the

0:38:230:38:26

matter is now go if you go down to

the basement or into the roof, it is

0:38:260:38:30

a death trap. It is a place that

every year, the risk gets higher and

0:38:300:38:35

higher. We can't meet all the

standards we would impose on every

0:38:350:38:39

other building in the land in terms

of health and safety and disabled

0:38:390:38:42

access.

How responsible is your

position, John Hayes, when you

0:38:420:38:46

listen to that from Chris Bryant and

others and all the tales that we

0:38:460:38:51

hear about the sewage works, about

the building crumbling on the

0:38:510:38:55

outside? We see the endless

scaffolding on the outside. It is

0:38:550:38:58

more responsible to take a position

to stay?

I don't share the

0:38:580:39:03

preoccupation some of my colleagues

have with the sewers but the real

0:39:030:39:06

point is this, that if it is a death

trap as Chris describes, why aren't

0:39:060:39:10

we taking a decision that will have

an effect urgently? Why don't we get

0:39:100:39:14

on with the what? The way we are

talking now, we have to build

0:39:140:39:17

somewhere else and get -- don't move

until 2025.

There's an element of

0:39:170:39:23

truth to that but one of the big

problems if you've got the picture

0:39:230:39:26

there now, I was up in front of the

clock face yesterday morning...

0:39:260:39:30

You're brave.

It is cold and very

difficult work, we've got 20 major

0:39:300:39:35

projects including security projects

on the estate already. What I would

0:39:350:39:39

say to those that think we should

stay in the building while the work

0:39:390:39:42

is being done, it will be ten times

the amount of work that is being

0:39:420:39:49

done now and I know exactly what

every MP will do, they will say," I

0:39:490:39:52

can't hear myself think! They can't

work while they are here! They can

0:39:520:39:55

only work at night!" That will

quadruple the cost if we don't move

0:39:550:39:59

out.

If you think it is a death

trap, why aren't you moving out

0:39:590:40:03

immediately? If it's not until 2025,

it can't be that they dress.

We are

0:40:030:40:08

doing all we possibly can now to

mitigate the risk but we can't

0:40:080:40:11

install the full sprinter system in

the basement or the tactics and we

0:40:110:40:14

can't access the 98 different

columns through the building that

0:40:140:40:18

would carry fire very fast through

the building. We haven't even

0:40:180:40:22

managed to do what every other royal

palace has done since the Windsor

0:40:220:40:25

fire which is compartmentalise the

building. We are the only well Paris

0:40:250:40:29

that isn't. Firewood spread through

that building so vast, John would

0:40:290:40:33

not be able to run fast enough to

get away.

I think you underestimate

0:40:330:40:37

my speed! The truth is, Chris is

right, the work needs to be done, if

0:40:370:40:43

you go to any historic building,

cathedrals, large stately homes, the

0:40:430:40:47

Tower of London...

But they are not

full of people sitting in

0:40:470:40:51

Parliament.

But they are visited by

millions of people each year and

0:40:510:40:54

those people, and by the way, we

will be looking at the school

0:40:540:40:57

children who visit Parliament, they

will be locked up.

It sounds like it

0:40:570:41:02

be too dangerous for these people do

come and look.

The biggest danger,

0:41:020:41:05

the most likely way of losing the

building for generations of children

0:41:050:41:08

is if we have a massive fire or

other catastrophic failure such as

0:41:080:41:14

related to asbestos.

Let's talk

about the costs because what about

0:41:140:41:17

the point that if you stay while the

work goes on, it will cost more

0:41:170:41:21

because it will take longer?

I think

the point about that is, the report

0:41:210:41:26

that was brought out by the leader

of the house made two things very

0:41:260:41:29

clear and they were affirmed in the

cause of our considerations. The

0:41:290:41:32

first is the building is

structurally sound, this is the

0:41:320:41:35

point that Chris, with absolute

honesty, made himself. The building

0:41:350:41:39

is structurally sound. The second

point was that the replacement

0:41:390:41:42

building will did necessitate the

demolition, not the adaptation, the

0:41:420:41:46

demolition of Richmond house.

Which

you hate! You told me you hate it!

0:41:460:41:52

Tell the viewers what it is.

It's

the Department of Health, just

0:41:520:41:57

across the road.

It is an empty

building.

It is now, the former

0:41:570:42:01

Department of Health.

What is wrong

with demolishing it?

The cost will

0:42:010:42:05

be immense.

How much?

The argument

in the paper is more than £3

0:42:050:42:10

billion.

We've got to do that work

anyway because there are problems in

0:42:100:42:14

other parts of the parliamentary

estate, in Norman Shaw North and

0:42:140:42:19

South for instance, staff had to be

given inoculations against hepatitis

0:42:190:42:22

because they suddenly had effluent

pouring down on top of them from

0:42:220:42:28

drains that had broken in the roof

above. We had somebody's...

It all

0:42:280:42:33

sounds like a health hazard to me!

We had a car written off because a

0:42:330:42:38

large dog of masonry fell off --

chunk of masonry fell off onto it.

0:42:380:42:45

We have had years and years of

packed and meant but we've got to be

0:42:450:42:48

resolute now and we've made the

decision in principle yesterday.

0:42:480:42:51

Riazor though there was not a

massive difference, about 16 votes.

0:42:510:42:56

In my experience as an MP, if you

win by one vote, you win.

That is

0:42:560:43:01

also true but in terms of moving

out, how will it work?

The most

0:43:010:43:05

important thing is we in the Palace

of Westminster don't have the

0:43:050:43:10

capability and capacity to manage

this massive infrastructure

0:43:100:43:17

this massive infrastructure project.

We need to set up, as we did for the

0:43:210:43:23

X, a sponsor body and a delivery

authority.

The pics?

Yes, it was

0:43:230:43:26

delivered on time and on budget, and

I know people say it will always

0:43:260:43:28

overrun and all the rest of it but

in recent years, we've got better at

0:43:280:43:31

delivering major projects like

Crossrail on-time and on budget, I

0:43:310:43:34

think we can do it on time and on

budget if we make sure we have

0:43:340:43:37

proper, professional people doing

work.

The scale of the management of

0:43:370:43:40

running the programme that Chris

describes, the demolition of

0:43:400:43:43

Richmond house, the creation of this

alternative chamber, the edifice

0:43:430:43:47

that is going to be a stone's throw

from the Palace of Westminster, at

0:43:470:43:50

the same time, to restore the whole

of the Palace of Westminster, will

0:43:500:43:55

be a mammoth task.

But you have said

it's got to be done.

Yes, but it

0:43:550:43:59

should be done in a way that is

manageable and the way you do it

0:43:590:44:02

manageably is bit by bit, part by

part.

Oh, Tosh! Honestly...

But

0:44:020:44:08

hasn't that been going on?

It has

and look at the building.

The thing

0:44:080:44:14

is, we don't have any more space

than the workforce needed in the

0:44:140:44:17

building.

What about the people that

will be made redundant when we move?

0:44:170:44:23

Honestly, you said this yesterday in

the chamber and it was misleading

0:44:230:44:26

and wrong, but one of the things we

do need to do is because we won't

0:44:260:44:29

have so many Polish builders in the

UK, we need to make sure we have

0:44:290:44:33

trained young people in every

constituency in the land, proper

0:44:330:44:37

apprenticeship programmes, in the

high-tech and engineering skills we

0:44:370:44:39

will need and in the craft trades...

Interesting but that is slightly off

0:44:390:44:47

the point. In terms of how

Parliament will be run, how will it

0:44:470:44:51

function in this sort of new

edifice, the replacement?

We'll

0:44:510:44:55

probably have debates and shout at

each other and probably do exactly

0:44:550:44:58

the same as we await have. It will

be no different. Parliament is in

0:44:580:45:03

the building, it's the debate.

If

that is the case, why don't you just

0:45:030:45:07

move some else?

That is probably

what will happen. The truth of the

0:45:070:45:12

matter is that those who want to

move out, not Chris, actually, it is

0:45:120:45:15

very honourable about this, but

somewhat without, we heard from the

0:45:150:45:20

Scottish Nationalists and others

yesterday, some of them want to move

0:45:200:45:23

out.

And they lost.

But the key

point is this and this is the

0:45:230:45:27

difference between us which is a

pricing because Chris is a aesthete

0:45:270:45:30

and it is surprising that this

difference should arrive.

Was that a

0:45:300:45:36

condiment?

Take it for what it is

and let John Bennett. -- a

0:45:360:45:41

compliment. Take it for what it is

and let John Bennett.

Can't separate

0:45:410:45:45

a place from it function, the

institution from its reality. It is

0:45:450:45:50

not pompous, it is what people who

come to the house, who want to come

0:45:500:45:53

to the house, in my constituency

yesterday, feel when they get there.

0:45:530:45:57

I said yesterday we tread in the

footsteps of giants. We do and our

0:45:570:46:03

responsibility is for all those to

come and all those who came before.

0:46:030:46:10

Radek, what would you do? Would you

have forced a decision through on

0:46:100:46:14

moving out?

You are lucky to have

such a beautiful and attractive and

0:46:140:46:21

popular house of parliament.

Which

is falling down, it seems.

The whole

0:46:210:46:24

world comes to see it that these are

always decisions that inspired

0:46:240:46:29

tabloid fury because people feel

that democracy should be cheap.

It's

0:46:290:46:36

not cheap, it's £3.9 billion, which

is very expensive.

But the building

0:46:360:46:42

has to be maintained whatever its

function. And if you do not pay for

0:46:420:46:48

your democracy you will get lower

quality.

But do you think they

0:46:480:46:51

should move out while it is done

even if they are prepared to pay for

0:46:510:46:55

it?

Well, I can pledge if you have a

shortage of Polish workers we can

0:46:550:47:00

rally round and send your brigade.

One of the things that upsets me is

0:47:000:47:04

when kids come from the Rhondda

Valley or other constituents, the

0:47:040:47:08

disabled access in the building is

shocking. We passed laws in

0:47:080:47:12

Parliament to tell every other

public building in the world you had

0:47:120:47:15

to have full disabled access but we

don't have it in Parliament and

0:47:150:47:18

that's one of the things we can put

right.

Back and be done while we are

0:47:180:47:21

there.

It can't. There is a lot of

agreement between us.

There is and

0:47:210:47:27

because you don't want to move out.

The fundamental thing we agree on is

0:47:270:47:31

that the building must be maintained

and restored and improved. The issue

0:47:310:47:34

is, do you say to mine and his

constituents that we will be so

0:47:340:47:40

self-indulgent we don't put up with

it while we are working and I think

0:47:400:47:43

we should.

On that I will move you

both out of here. At no cost at all.

0:47:430:47:48

I am a remainder. I will be until my

dying day.

On this, you are leaving.

0:47:480:47:58

We are in the topsy-turvy world we

live in at the moment.

0:47:580:48:01

Now, behind every political party

is a faithful press officer,

0:48:010:48:04

there to keep things smooth

during the good times and the bad.

0:48:040:48:06

Last night, UKIP's long-serving

press spokesperson Gawain Towler

0:48:060:48:10

announced that he was "consciously

uncoupling" from the party,

0:48:100:48:14

which he has been with for 13 years.

0:48:140:48:18

During that time, the party has had

six different leaders.

0:48:180:48:24

Actually, eight, we think.

0:48:240:48:26

I'll be speaking to him in a moment,

but first, let's take a look

0:48:260:48:29

at Gawain in action.

0:48:290:48:30

# And they called it puppy love

0:48:300:48:32

# Oh, I guess they'll

never know....#

0:48:320:48:40

The number of people we've had

getting in touch, saying, "I'm

0:48:400:48:43

really sorry, I made a mess".

0:48:430:48:44

That they voted for the wrong party?

0:48:440:48:46

That they voted for the wrong party.

0:48:460:48:49

But as I say, them's

the breaks, that's

0:48:490:48:51

politics.

0:48:510:48:55

Will you still be leader

if you're not an MP?

0:48:550:48:59

Some Ukip leaders have

done quite well not

0:48:590:49:01

being in Parliament, haven't they?

0:49:010:49:04

# Tell them all, please

tell them it isn't fair

0:49:100:49:14

# To take away my only dream #.

0:49:140:49:21

The glamorous life of the press

officer. What was happening?

I was

0:49:250:49:30

pulling summary out from the drink.

They looked like they were pulling

0:49:300:49:33

you win.

He had been scribbling I

love Nigel on the beach and then

0:49:330:49:38

realised that there was a problem.

The tide was coming in, vast....

Why

0:49:380:49:46

are you leaving Ukip after 13 years?

I was going to leave after the

0:49:460:49:50

referendum that I felt some level of

stability was required with the new

0:49:500:49:54

leader and then the new leader, and

then the new leader, and then a new

0:49:540:49:58

leader and then the general

election. And in the end I've got

0:49:580:50:02

other things I'd like to do.

You are

not leaving because the party seems

0:50:020:50:07

to be on the wane?

I'm still a

member and that is not a problem.

0:50:070:50:10

I'm just leaving from my position.

But are you leaving your position

0:50:100:50:14

because you think the party is

beyond help now?

No, if I was doing

0:50:140:50:18

that, I'd be leaving the party. I'm

not leaving the party and I will

0:50:180:50:21

stay a member of the party but I

think it is about time I really got

0:50:210:50:26

on with something else. 13 years as

a long time, and most of it I've

0:50:260:50:31

forgotten already, fortunately.

Highlights?

Pulling Sam out of the

0:50:310:50:34

drink. Last week there was an event

to raise money for a cancer charity

0:50:340:50:41

because Sam died last year, and he

was one of the best of men, from

0:50:410:50:46

carefully, but that was a highlight,

but there have been dozens of

0:50:460:50:49

highlights. Fortunately, it being

Ukip, I've forgotten them.

Nigel

0:50:490:50:55

Farage tweeted that you always loyal

and there. Did you give your life to

0:50:550:50:59

the job?

Certainly a chunk of it.

It's not so much the job. I joined

0:50:590:51:03

because I believed in the cause and

I still believe in the cause. And

0:51:030:51:08

the entertainments,

0:51:080:51:13

the entertainments, such as floods,

have provided their moment.

Some of

0:51:150:51:17

the more challenging moments.

Always

good to have a porn star as one of

0:51:170:51:24

your candidates.

He blamed this on

the legalisation of gay marriage and

0:51:240:51:28

God Reeve -- God -- Godfrey Bloom

left after his sluts comment. Did

0:51:280:51:39

you put your head in your hands when

you heard these things?

Often, yes,

0:51:390:51:44

and then I had a drink and I

ploughed on.

Is that the way you got

0:51:440:51:48

through it?

It is the Ukip way.

Henry Bolton's girlfriend racist

0:51:480:51:55

messages?

This has been another

interesting period. Henry is a very

0:51:550:51:58

good man. The situation is as it is.

One was not expecting that and I

0:51:580:52:05

don't think he was. That isn't in

itself the reason I was going. I

0:52:050:52:10

have been planning to go for awhile,

really I have, but it has been

0:52:100:52:14

sticky and sticky and then I have to

make a clean break.

You simply

0:52:140:52:17

haven't just had enough?

This

weekend I will have the weekend off.

0:52:170:52:23

That will be the first in 34

weekends. It's been quite forlorn.

0:52:230:52:33

Henry Bolton said he would not quit

despite the pressure -- it has been

0:52:340:52:41

quite full on. Do you think you

should, now, sitting here?

He has

0:52:410:52:45

made his decision and I will not

miss the EGM for the world and I

0:52:450:52:49

will be working up until that point

and I will be doing that. I am

0:52:490:52:53

considering having a drone and may

be doing pay-per-view visit would

0:52:530:52:56

keep you lot out of the meeting

itself. But I think the NEC opposed

0:52:560:53:07

him, but remember the NEC and the

party, he came from outside an

0:53:070:53:10

appeal to the membership rather than

the people like me.

And you came

0:53:100:53:14

from the Conservative party

originally.

Yes, I'm still in

0:53:140:53:20

Glasgow Maryhill and I've been

through tough times before.

You have

0:53:200:53:24

been on a journey, no doubt about

it. But on Henry Bolton, do you not

0:53:240:53:28

think his decision to stay and

continue to challenge the NEC's

0:53:280:53:33

decision is, in the end, going to do

for the party?

Not necessarily and I

0:53:330:53:38

don't think that is the case. I

think Henry's strongest suit is the

0:53:380:53:44

cost to the party, not the financial

cost as other people suggest. The

0:53:440:53:47

cost to the party is having a

leadership election during a period

0:53:470:53:52

where if Ukip is anything it is

about prosecuting Brexit and holding

0:53:520:53:55

the government to account. If we

spent five months shooting ourselves

0:53:550:53:59

in the foot rather than holding the

government and the opposition to

0:53:590:54:02

account at a time when I don't think

anybody in the country knows what

0:54:020:54:05

either the government or the

opposition stance is on Brexit, we

0:54:050:54:08

at least have a clear message if we

go out and give it. We need to spend

0:54:080:54:13

our time having a lover leadership

election during that period --

0:54:130:54:19

another leadership election seems to

be the strongest alderman.

Who has

0:54:190:54:22

been the best Ukip leader? --

strongest argument.

What, of the

0:54:220:54:28

ten?

Who has been your favourite?

Obviously Nigel made the difference.

0:54:280:54:35

It was Nigel's Drive, charisma and

sheer work across the country over

0:54:350:54:39

time.

And European and Russian money

helps, of course.

Russia?

Through

0:54:390:54:45

sponsorship.

Prove it. That is a

serious allegation. That is a

0:54:450:54:53

serious allegation.

Prove it. It is

a serious allegation, Cooper-Woolley

0:54:530:54:56

do need to prove it. Where is your

evidence? -- you do need to prove

0:54:560:55:02

it.

I read it in the newspaper, so

it must be true.

Well on that, do

0:55:020:55:06

you think Ukip is making a mark on

the European scene?

Yes, a huge

0:55:060:55:11

success. A party composed of

fruitcakes, in the words of David

0:55:110:55:18

Cameron, it has transferred its

ideology to the ruling party and the

0:55:180:55:25

Conservative party has now taken

over Ukip's position on English

0:55:250:55:28

nationalism.

I would say on the

European level, and yes to a certain

0:55:280:55:34

extent, we have been an inspiration

behind the Finns party and others

0:55:340:55:40

across Europe where you see a rising

tide of Euro scepticism across the

0:55:400:55:45

continent.

But today you have

resigned from your position. Thank

0:55:450:55:48

you for coming onto the programme.

0:55:480:55:51

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:55:510:55:55

The question was what has culture

secretary Matt Hancock done to show

0:55:550:55:58

he's ahead of the digital game.

0:55:580:55:59

Is it:

0:55:590:56:00

a) Started a podcast?

0:56:000:56:01

b) Created his own app?

0:56:010:56:02

c) Become a Youtube star?

0:56:020:56:03

or d) Become an

instagram influencer?

0:56:030:56:05

So what's the correct answer?

0:56:050:56:07

You have got to have a guess.

Otherwise Gawain will have a guess.

0:56:070:56:12

Answer B.

It is. It is an app.

0:56:120:56:20

Well to discuss this

exciting political foray

0:56:200:56:22

in to the digital scene,

we're joined by a genuine

0:56:220:56:24

digital native, the

journalist Marie le Conte.

0:56:240:56:27

What do you think? Is he keeping up

to the moment?

I do actually think,

0:56:270:56:32

in fairness, that it is quite a good

idea because he can speak to his

0:56:320:56:38

constituents, which can be useful

and from a party political point of

0:56:380:56:40

view as well the Conservatives have

had problems in keeping up with the

0:56:400:56:45

Labour Party in using social media

and reaching people. I do think it

0:56:450:56:48

is a good idea. I wouldn't have

called it Matt Hancock. It's a weird

0:56:480:56:54

name for an app.

What would you have

called it?

Anything but his name.

0:56:540:57:00

Because the issue is now you can get

notifications on your phone saying

0:57:000:57:04

Matt Hancock wants to see your

pictures or Matt Hancock has stopped

0:57:040:57:08

working, which is not ideal.

Not

catchy. There is a problem, the

0:57:080:57:12

privacy flaw.

There is. The app can

still access your pictures even if

0:57:120:57:18

you have said you do not want it to

do that. And also the Department for

0:57:180:57:24

culture, media and sport said it had

nothing to do with them so this is

0:57:240:57:27

Matt Hancock as a private citizen

effectively having access to your

0:57:270:57:31

pictures.

What does that say about

1's confidence in the digital

0:57:310:57:35

minister making that error?

It is an

area of policy that he is in charge

0:57:350:57:43

of, so not the best thing. But I

think he outsourced the making of

0:57:430:57:48

the app to a start-up and he

probably should have named it and

0:57:480:57:53

somebody could have noticed that

before it came out.

Are you going to

0:57:530:57:57

have your own app?

No, but I have a

million followers on Twitter.

Well

0:57:570:58:03

there you go, some self publicity.

Do you think it is a good idea for

0:58:030:58:07

politics to do?

It is necessary

these days.

You cannot not do it. In

0:58:070:58:12

terms of having your own app?

One

step enemy.

Who will be the audience

0:58:120:58:17

for Matt Hancock's app?

He wanted to

be people in the constituency but it

0:58:170:58:22

has been journalist mainly making

fun of it. But the journalists will

0:58:220:58:25

get bored eventually and then he

might get genuine constituents to

0:58:250:58:29

use it.

Thank you very much joining

us.

0:58:290:58:31

That's all for today.

0:58:310:58:32

Thanks to our guests.

0:58:320:58:38

The One o'clock news is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:58:380:58:41

Andrew will be on This Week tonight

with Michael Portillo,

0:58:410:58:43

Liz Kendall, John Simpson,

Kevin Maguire and Ralf Little

0:58:430:58:45

from 11:45pm.

0:58:450:58:47

And I'll be here at noon

tomorrow with all the big

0:58:470:58:50

political stories of the day.

0:58:500:58:51

Bye bye.

0:58:510:58:53

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