02/02/2018 Daily Politics


02/02/2018

Jo Coburn is joined by Sir Bill Cash and Francis Maude to discuss Theresa May's leadership and Brexit. Plus William Hague talks about his political hero - Pitt the Younger.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May hails £9 billion worth

of trade deals as her three-day trip

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to China comes to a close -

but has she done enough

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to persuade her fractious party

that she has a vision

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for Britain and Brexit?

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Carillion collapsed -

now other private firms that deliver

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public services could be in trouble.

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Is the outsourcing model broken?

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Labour councillors quit, saying

they've been bullied or intimidated

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by pro-Corbyn activists.

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Is Labour the new nasty party?

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And one of the youngest Tory Leaders

chooses the youngest ever prime

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minister as his political hero.

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I first came across him from

Margaret Thatcher, can you believe?

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All that in the next hour

and with us for the duration,

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two political heroes of mine -

Harry Cole of the Sun

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and Zoe Williams of the Guardian.

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Welcome to the programme.

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So, Theresa May is returning

to Britain with a fistful of trade

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deals and talking up the UK's

prospects outside

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the European Union.

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But her trade tour of China has been

overshadowed by noises off

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from her own MPs here in Westminster

and demands that she provides more

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clarity on the UK's negotiating

position as the second stage

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of Brexit talks begin.

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Just before she boarded a plane

in Shanghai she spoke

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to the BBC's political editor,

Laura Kuenssberg, who asked her

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whether it was time to fill

in the blanks on what she really

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wanted from Brexit.

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We're now starting to negotiate that

free trade agreement

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with the European Union.

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We want that to enable trade to take

place on as frictionless

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and tariff-free a basis as possible

across our borders.

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But, of course, we also want to be

signing trade deals around

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the rest of the world,

like here in China.

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Prime Minister, there's

a fundamental choice,

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though, here, isn't there?

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Your Chancellor has said he believes

the changes might be very modest.

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One of your former Brexit ministers,

who is on your side,

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has said the Government is yet

to make clear choices and you're

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risking ending up with something

that looks like meaningless waffle.

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There are big choices here that

you haven't yet made,

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or you're not willing to tell us.

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The negotiations with the

European Union are in two phases.

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We completed the first phase...

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And we are in the second phase now.

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Time is running out.

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We've just entered the second phase.

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If you look back to what happened

in the first phase, many people said

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we wouldn't get a deal,

many people said we wouldn't be able

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to come to an agreement with the EU

and many people said we wouldn't get

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what we wanted.

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That's been done and now we move

on and what people want to know...

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Yes, but this is...

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Laura...

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But the point is...

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It is fundamentally...

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The point is that that deal,

which many people said

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would not be done, was done.

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We got what we wanted.

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We ensured that we dealt with those

issues in that first phase.

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Now we start the negotiations

for the second phase.

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We want that free trade agreement,

we negotiate a free trade agreement

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with the European Union.

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We want that to be on as

tariff-free and frictionless

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a basis as possible.

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That will be good

for jobs in the UK.

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But that also gives us the freedom

to be able to negotiate and to sign

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up trade deals around the rest

of the world.

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That's good for prosperity and jobs

and people in Britain, too.

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Prime Minister, you know very well,

though, that the decision time

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is fast approaching.

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Now, our viewers can hear

when you are reluctant

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to give any more detail.

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I ask you again, which is

more important to you -

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less disruption to the economy

or more control for our parliament

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and our politicians?

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Because the EU, many

people in business, many

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members of the public,

many people in your party believe

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you simply can't have both,

and you must now come clean

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on what you really want

or it risks you looking

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like you don't know what you want.

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You see, I don't believe

that those are alternatives.

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What the British people voted

for is for us to take back

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control of our money,

our borders and our laws and that's

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exactly what we are going to do.

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And we're joined now by the veteran

Conservative Brexiteer Bill Cash.

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Welcome to the programme. Does

Theresa May need to set out her

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ambition for Brexit more clearly

now?

Brexit, she said, means Brexit.

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We've got the Article 50 act through

by 499 in the House of Commons.

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We've also got the withdrawal bill

through the House of commons by a

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bigger majority on second reading.

The negotiations are running

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parallel to this. It is bound to be

difficult. There is no question

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about that. The European scrutiny

committee is looking into the ins

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and outs of it. In terms of her and

the way it is all being conducted,

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the fact is... I said recently we

need to have what I call a grown-up

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discussion, knowing that there are

serious differences about the

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endgame but, actually, if you look

what the EU wants, they want

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political union. There was no way we

could stay in that EU.

So does

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Theresa May need to set up what she

wants more clearly?

I would like to

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see more emphasis on what the

objectives of the EU are entered as

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a political union, the fact that

they run a system of making laws

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which we couldn't possibly live with

behind closed doors, the democracy

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that we represent, the terrific

opportunities that we have in the

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global market, of which this China

deal is an example.

Are you

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disappointed that she hasn't said

those things?

I'm saying at the

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moment we are waiting for her to

make a big speech, which I think is

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coming.

It is not, actually. She's

going to deliver a speech on

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security but not a big speech in the

way you have characterised

I think

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the moment is going to come when we

need to get that big vision out

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there because I think a lot of

people are squabbling amongst one

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another about what they want, where

is that the ultimate objectives in

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the national interests are clearly

to repeal the 72 act, get the bill

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through the House of Lords with

possibly some amendments, and the

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bottom-line is that the really big

vision is about stopping our being

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part of a union. We can't reverse,

we can't remain. We actually have to

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get into the serious business of

having our own lawmaking, our own

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borders, our own money.

You said the

party are squabbling. Has Theresa

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May got a grip of the Conservative

Party?

I think there are too many

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people who are running around at the

moment giving an impression, which

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are really differences of opinion,

we hear it in the tea room and

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elsewhere, but the reality is that

actually, when it comes to the

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votes, rather than the arguments,

the votes are going through.

Use a

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differences of opinion, it is more

than differences of opinion. Tempers

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are flying left, right and centre.

There is a daily outpouring of Tory

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MPs basically criticising the

opposite side when it comes to

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Brexit and not just on Brexit. Even

your colleagues Jacob Rees-Mogg is

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basically accusing the civil service

of not actually... Or betraying what

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Brexit was all about, even though

the Government has tasked the civil

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service with finding out what they

should be doing. Is that correct?

If

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you look at what has happened over

Project Fear, I distinctly remember

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how the information process was

begun and it is this... It was

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agreed that it would be a completely

impartial process and it was not.

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There is a kind of status quo,

institutionalised attitude within

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parts of the civil service and, in a

way, you can hardly blame them, for

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this reason. Actually, they have

grown up with this. When you heard

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the secretary of the Cabinet saying

that the repeal of the 1972 act was

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a dagger in his soul, that is the

kind of thing... Lyubov Waite, civil

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servants, if they had a clear steer,

would be prosecuting that steered.

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The problem is, nobody will tell

them what to do. You seem to have

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missed something. They have got a

clear steer.

They don't even know if

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you want to stay in the customs

union or not.

We're not going to be

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a customs union or the single.

Don't

talk over each

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talk over each other, and let Zoe

responded

When the council decision

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was announced two or three days ago,

the fact is that in that document it

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actually prescribes that we would be

in the customs union and in the

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single market, that we would be

subject to the court of justice.

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These are the really big questions

of the fact is that the Government

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is saying we will not be the customs

union or the single market for one

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reason, and that is if you repeal

the 1972 act, you change the whole

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nature of the relationship.

The

problem is, and it is perfectly

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demonstrated here, people are going

to project on the Prime Minister

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what they want because there is a

vacuum. The problem for the Prime

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Minister is that she's in a Catch-22

situation. Because of her gamble

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last year, she has ended up in a

situation where there are 15 people

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on the Remain side of the party, the

pro-EU wing, who wonders of Brexit,

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and there are maybe 40 or even 50 on

the hard Brexit side who want a

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pure, clean break with Brussels. At

this point, she has got upset one of

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those wings. And she is trying to

juggle all these plates for so long,

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eventually she has got to break.

This makes literally no sense. You

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are both sitting here saying we are

completely resolved and leaving the

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single market and the customs union.

If that were clear, there wouldn't

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be a vacuum.

The vacuum is what

replaces it. The decision has been

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made.

Let me ask your question. Is

Theresa May still the best person in

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your mind to deliver Brexit?

I

believe so, because actually we've

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got a programme, she is following it

through, you got the Lancaster House

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speech. We are the transitional

period. There are a number of

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questions... We are in the middle of

the associated what that is going to

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mean.

Harry has just said, in a

political vacuum various wings of

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the party are projecting out to the

party what they think Brexit should

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be. Would Brexit be better delivered

by somebody who voted to leave the

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EU in the referendum?

She has made

an even bigger transition in a

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sense, from going for Remain to a

situation where she is pursuing a

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policy, getting the bills and we

have already gone through.

Would

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Brexit be better delivered by her or

somebody who voted to leave?

My view

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is that she is doing a very good job

in making sure that we deliver the

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votes in the House of Commons, and

that is what matters. Is

So why the

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squabbling? Why this daily browing?

You tell me.

I am not a member of

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the Tory body or an MP.

I am saying

that their arguments are the

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inevitable. Would you be surprised

if they weren't going to argue?

We

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have talked a bit about the civil

service. Brexit colleagues like

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Jacob Rees-Mogg have been

denigrating civil servants who work

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for your Government, and then we had

the unedifying spectacle of Steve

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Baker, a government minister,

accusing civil servants of skewing

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the data to undermine the case for

leaving the EU and then having to

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apologise to the House because he

got it wrong. Let's have a listen to

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Steve Baker.

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Yesterday, I answer the question

based on my honest recollection of a

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conversation. As I explained

yesterday, I considered what I

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understood the question being put to

me as implausible because of a

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long-standing and well-regarded

impartiality of the civil service.

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The audio of that conversation is

now available and I am glad the

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record stand corrected. In the

context of that audio, I accept that

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I should have corrected or dismissed

the premise of my honourable

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friend's question. I have apologised

to Mr Charles Grant, an honest and

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trustworthy man. As I have put on

record many times, I have the

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highest regard for our hard-working

civil servants. I am grateful for

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this early opportunity to correct

the record, Mr Depp is bigger, and I

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apologise to the House.

Which bit

did he get right? You said some of

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it was true.

I'm saying that impact

when he may be apology, that, as far

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as I'm concerned, draws line under

it. It appears from what I saw, and

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I wasn't in the House at the time,

but my understanding of it is that

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he was presented with a question

which was based on a degree of

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hearsay and I think you

misunderstood the nature of the

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question.

Do you have any comment to

make about the fact that he only

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apologised once the audio was

released?

I haven't the audio.

Is it

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right to deliberately accuse...

Sorry, accuse the civil service of

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deliberately drawing up negative

assessments of Brexit?

During

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Project Fear...

You do think it is

true so why did he apologise?

I'm

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not saying that, I'm talking about

the past.

In these recent

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assessments that were leaked to...

Steve Baker basically said, until

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the audio was actually released

which proved to be wrong, he said

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the civil service had

deliberately... How can an minister

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get it wrong, accusing his own civil

servants of deliberately doing

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something that they didn't do?

I

think you're putting a bit too much

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emphasis on the word to

deliberately. I don't think from

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what I saw that he had done it to

liberally. I think there was a

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misunderstanding and I think it's

quite right for him to apologise but

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leave it at that.

People are now

saying openly what they have been

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saying privately since the

referendum, the wounds are still raw

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among people like Steve Baker, an

arch Brexiteer and a very respected

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person on that side of the debate.

They are still fighting the battles

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of the referendum, where they work

actually pretty much against the

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entire British establishment who

wanted Britain to stay in and that

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haven't healed. Located in the

context of this week. The Brexit

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department were blindsided by this

leak Monday, and Steve evidently

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didn't know that his own boss and

the Prime Minister had commissioned

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this work, so you can start to see

that sort of conspiracy appearing.

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It is so maddening. What is so

maddening about this is that every

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single time it is like, oh, well,

the Remainers are doing this again,

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the civil service Remainers are

doing that, exactly what they did in

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the referendum. Weighted.

Isn't a

legitimate, given there is a track

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record?

A won the referendum. And

they had a project, they could get

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on and do it. What is derailing them

is not having a project and when

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they are derailed by their own lack

of budget, they turn round and say,

0:15:180:15:23

the Remainers...

Hang on. There is a

legitimate claim to be made about

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the civil service?

0:15:270:15:32

the civil service?

No, I am simply

saying if you look at the pass,

0:15:340:15:36

there is a book written by Michael

Charlton for the BBC, that is no

0:15:360:15:40

doubt when you we'd the recorded

interviews of people like Conor

0:15:400:15:45

O'Neill and others, you will see

they had an attitude of mind. They

0:15:450:15:51

wanted a certain objective.

Your

college was on the programme a few

0:15:510:15:54

days ago at the end of last week and

said that if, in the end, there is

0:15:540:15:58

drift towards a softer Brexit and

the Government does contemplate an

0:15:580:16:02

go ahead with remaining in the

customs union of some sort, with the

0:16:020:16:06

European Union, that there would be

ructions, he said, in the country

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and it would be an existential

question for the Tory party. Do you

0:16:100:16:13

agree?

I think there are serious

questions inherent in the

0:16:130:16:17

distinction, as I would put it,

between as I said in the debate on

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this the other day, between being in

the custom union and eight custom

0:16:210:16:27

union.

What he is saying is...

If we

were to stay in indefinitely, of

0:16:270:16:35

course there would be a massive row,

but that is not what is happening.

0:16:350:16:39

It looks very like the suggestion on

the table is really all of these

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unions and then we create something

as much like them as possible and

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then we joined those, at gargantuan

expense and a huge waste of time.

We

0:16:460:16:52

will leave it there.

0:16:520:16:53

Now it's time for our daily quiz.

0:16:530:16:55

The question for today is...

0:16:550:16:56

What nickname have the Chinese

given Theresa May?

0:16:560:16:58

Is it...

0:16:580:16:59

A - Mummy May?

0:16:590:17:00

B - Granny May?

0:17:000:17:01

C - Auntie May?

0:17:010:17:02

Or D - Sister May?

0:17:020:17:03

At the end of the show,

Zoe and Harry will give

0:17:030:17:08

us the correct answer.

0:17:080:17:09

377 job losses have been announced

this morning at the construction

0:17:090:17:13

and outsourcing firm Carillion that

went in receivership last mont.

0:17:130:17:15

That firm's failure has been

followed by profit warnings

0:17:150:17:18

and share price falls from other

companies in the sector.

0:17:180:17:21

So is the outsourcing model

that's been encouraged

0:17:210:17:24

by successive governments broken?

0:17:240:17:29

Last month, the construction giant

Carillion collapsed,

0:17:290:17:31

after it was unable to secure

financial support

0:17:310:17:33

to continue trading.

0:17:330:17:34

On Wednesday, more than £1 billion

was wiped off the stock

0:17:340:17:37

market value of Capita,

which also handles

0:17:370:17:39

government contracts.

0:17:390:17:47

Other firms - Interserve,

Mitie and Serco - have also

0:17:470:17:49

seen their shares slide as investor

concerns mount about the state

0:17:490:17:52

of the wider outsourcing sector.

0:17:520:17:53

Labour have called for

an end to what they call

0:17:530:17:56

the outsourcing racket.

0:17:560:17:57

Under their plans, the public sector

would be the default choice

0:17:570:17:59

for providing government services.

0:17:590:18:01

Jeremy Corbyn has also pledged

a wage cap on bosses

0:18:010:18:04

running the firms.

0:18:040:18:07

Companies bidding for public-sector

work would have to stop executives

0:18:070:18:09

earning more than 20 times the wage

of their lowest paid worker.

0:18:090:18:17

In the Commons yesterday,

Labour's Rachel Reeves put down

0:18:200:18:22

an urgent question on Capita.

0:18:220:18:23

Oliver Dowden, Minister

for the Cabinet Office, responded.

0:18:230:18:25

The issues that led

to the insolvency of Carillion

0:18:250:18:27

will come out in due course

but our current assessment

0:18:270:18:30

is that they primarily flowed

from difficulties in construction

0:18:300:18:32

contracts, including overseas.

0:18:320:18:33

By contrast, Capita is primarily

a services business and 92%

0:18:330:18:36

of Capita's revenues come

from within the United Kingdom.

0:18:360:18:44

Now, as members would expect,

we regularly monitor the financial

0:18:470:18:53

stability of all our strategic

suppliers, including Capita,

0:18:530:18:56

and as I've said, we do not believe

any of them are in a comparable

0:18:560:18:59

position to Carillion.

0:18:590:19:00

And joining us now from Derby

is the Labour MP Chris Williamson.

0:19:000:19:02

And we're joined here in the studio

by the former Conservative

0:19:020:19:05

minister Francis Maude.

0:19:050:19:06

Welcome to both of you. Chris

Williamson, Oliver Dowden said the

0:19:060:19:10

Government does not believe Capita

is in anyway in a common position to

0:19:100:19:15

Carillion. They are not the same,

are they? They would say that,

0:19:150:19:19

wouldn't they? Clearly, there is a

concern because Capita has issued a

0:19:190:19:24

profit warning and they are in some

difficulties, it seems to me. This

0:19:240:19:27

is the same pattern that was

followed by Carillion. I frankly

0:19:270:19:30

think that the outsourcing model is

broken. It is one that has been used

0:19:300:19:35

for the past four decades and I

think we

0:19:350:19:41

need to move away from it to a

system which is more trustworthy and

0:19:530:19:56

better value for money.

And that

means bringing everything into the

0:19:560:19:58

public sector, then, in your mind?

That should be the default position.

0:19:580:20:01

That is the Labour Party's position,

as you said in the opening package

0:20:010:20:03

there. I think it is more

cost-effective, accountable, and

0:20:030:20:05

transparent. These companies are

exempt from the Freedom of

0:20:050:20:06

Information Act provision. So these

people are getting away potentially

0:20:060:20:09

with murder, really. And we need to

call a halt to it and get better

0:20:090:20:12

value for money for the taxpayer,

and better democratic oversight of

0:20:120:20:18

these activities. We can't allow

these companies to continue going

0:20:180:20:21

bust and ripping off the public

purse.

Should more alarm bells be

0:20:210:20:26

ringing? Are you worried about the

state of Capita, bearing in mind

0:20:260:20:30

what happened to Carillion? Capita

has even more public sector

0:20:300:20:34

contracts than Carillion. It is the

system broken?

Noel. But it has to

0:20:340:20:40

be managed in a very active and

effective way. I don't know what is

0:20:400:20:44

going on in Capita. They are obliged

to be open about what is going on.

0:20:440:20:49

They have issued a profit warning

and all of flats is there on the

0:20:490:20:54

face of it. But outsourcing is not a

panacea for every ill. Chris is a

0:20:540:21:00

hardline ideologues who thinks

private sector bad, public sector

0:21:000:21:04

automatically good. I'm not someone

who thinks the reverse. I think it

0:21:040:21:08

is horses for courses. But if you do

outsource, you need to do it well.

0:21:080:21:12

Right. But it wasn't done well under

Carillion, was it? Because the

0:21:120:21:17

Government had the ball literally

pulled over its eyes.

One of the

0:21:170:21:22

things I discovered when I had

responsibility for that area in 2010

0:21:220:21:24

was the way that public procurement

was being done almost double the

0:21:240:21:28

Ripley froze out small, newer, more

dynamic and innovative suppliers,

0:21:280:21:33

and we change that. There were rules

that you have two short three years

0:21:330:21:39

accounts, turnover threshold, things

that made it almost impossible for

0:21:390:21:42

smaller businesses to bid for and

winning Government business, and so

0:21:420:21:46

the big ones, the Giants, had far

too much of it their own way, and

0:21:460:21:50

actually too many of them became

that their principal competency was

0:21:500:21:57

not doing the work, it was winning

the business. That is not a healthy

0:21:570:22:01

position. We did reform that and one

of the things we put in place was

0:22:010:22:06

senior, private-sector crown

representatives, we called them, you

0:22:060:22:08

had a part-time role, but whose job

it was to be the kind of gatekeeper

0:22:080:22:14

with the big strategic suppliers to

Government to ensure this doesn't

0:22:140:22:18

happen.

Let me go back to Chris

Williamson on the question of

0:22:180:22:24

ideology. Is it, in your mind, Chris

Williamson, always the case that

0:22:240:22:29

public is good and Private Bag, that

all outsourcing should be stopped

0:22:290:22:33

because you are ideological is so

committed to the public sector,

0:22:330:22:37

whether or not one is better than

the other?

I'm afraid it is a

0:22:370:22:41

neoliberal ideology that has been

holding sway over the country for

0:22:410:22:45

probably since 1979. And if you

actually talk to most people out in

0:22:450:22:49

the country, they agree with us.

Most people don't like the fact that

0:22:490:22:53

the private sector is essentially

ripping off the public purse. Let's

0:22:530:22:59

remember that the first priority for

these companies is to make a profit.

0:22:590:23:03

And they are making billions and

billions of pounds in profit.

0:23:030:23:06

Surely, wouldn't it be better to

have these things delivered in-house

0:23:060:23:09

and then the dividends which are

dished out to the shareholders would

0:23:090:23:16

not be necessary, and that money

could then be reinvested and

0:23:160:23:20

improving the services? These

services that we all need.

Let me

0:23:200:23:27

put that to Francis. If in the end,

the companies are going to go bust

0:23:270:23:31

because of the system you have just

described, and they have made

0:23:310:23:35

billions in the process stop

0:23:350:23:38

described, and they have made

billions in the process stop.

0:23:380:23:45

billions in the process stop.

It

must be obvious what the problem is.

0:23:450:23:49

But they did pay themselves money,

even when the finances were looking

0:23:490:23:52

precarious and that is what has been

revealed.

They were not making

0:23:520:23:57

billions and billions of profit.

This has to be done right. You have

0:23:570:24:00

to manage the contract in the right

way and you have to open it up to

0:24:000:24:03

smaller companies and that is the

way to do it. But this idea that

0:24:030:24:08

somehow the public sector, because

it doesn't make a profit, is always

0:24:080:24:12

better, there is in the public

sector too much aversion to

0:24:120:24:16

innovation. There is a bias to

inertia rather than the buyers to

0:24:160:24:21

innovation. You do not get progress.

Chris Williamson, what do you say?

0:24:210:24:28

Well, Francis is just burying his

head in the sand. And is a stranger

0:24:280:24:32

to reality, it seems to me. Of

course, the public sector is

0:24:320:24:36

perfectly capable of innovation, but

what he is ignoring is the fact that

0:24:360:24:39

billions of pounds and the public

record shows that, having paid out

0:24:390:24:43

in dividends to shareholders. That

is a fact. Furthermore, the fat cat

0:24:430:24:48

executives at the top of these

organisations are paying themselves

0:24:480:24:52

colossal sums, and really

conservatives often wailing the

0:24:520:24:54

level of remuneration for local

authority Chief executives, and they

0:24:540:25:00

pale into insignificance against the

multi-million pound salary packages

0:25:000:25:05

packages that these objectives in

these private outsourcing companies

0:25:050:25:09

are receiving. The chief executive

of Capita, for example, the outgoing

0:25:090:25:13

chief executive, I think his

remuneration package was just under

0:25:130:25:16

£3 million. These are colossal

figures and it is being subsidised

0:25:160:25:20

by the public purse.

What evidence

have you got that the public sector

0:25:200:25:26

would run all of these services and

build all of the constructions that

0:25:260:25:32

having undertaken by private

companies in the meantime if there

0:25:320:25:34

hadn't outsourcing?

... Well, of

course.

0:25:340:25:43

course.

The model that existed right

to this was exactly that, and we

0:25:430:25:48

seem to manage perfectly well, if

not better. Indeed, the economic

0:25:480:25:52

performance of the country... I can

hear France's scoffing, but the

0:25:520:25:55

economic performance of the country

was at least as good if not better.

0:25:550:26:01

We are just talking about whether or

not these buildings would have been

0:26:010:26:04

made if there hadn't been

outsourcing.

It was this idea that

0:26:040:26:10

everything was fine before there was

outsourcing is complete nonsense.

0:26:100:26:14

Governments have struggled with this

and as the size of the state has

0:26:140:26:17

grown and the scope of state

activity has grown, it is essential

0:26:170:26:21

to find different ways of doing

things. Otherwise, you find

0:26:210:26:26

absolutely no innovation.

At the

beginning of the coalition, there

0:26:260:26:29

was a huge amount of noise around

small companies and contracts had to

0:26:290:26:36

be given where companies would bring

social value to the community. It

0:26:360:26:42

didn't make any difference. If you

look at something like the work

0:26:420:26:45

programme, all of the contracts were

taken off social value companies.

0:26:450:26:50

What are the facts, then?

I will

give you one example. When I took

0:26:500:26:56

over in 2010, 80% of the Government

spent was on national suppliers and

0:26:560:27:02

weak in sourced some of that. The

previous Labour Government had done

0:27:020:27:07

mass outsourcing. But we also opened

up procurement to smaller social

0:27:070:27:12

enterprises, smaller developers and

start ups, though actually by 2015,

0:27:120:27:18

you look at the map of suppliers to

the Government and there were lots

0:27:180:27:25

literally all over the UK.

I wanted

you to counterexamples. One of them

0:27:250:27:31

is the work programme. No, they

weren't just opened up. They were

0:27:310:27:34

divvied out to seven or eight and

this has had a massive impact.

The

0:27:340:27:41

problem that the Government has is

that people will be making these

0:27:410:27:46

arguments regardless of whether it

is going well and working or not.

0:27:460:27:51

The easiest way to talk down a

public company is to go on

0:27:510:27:55

television and attack it. The

problem was... Chris, for example,

0:27:550:28:04

was making these arguments even in

the good times. It is an ideological

0:28:040:28:07

thing for him. But the problem is

the Government need to start making

0:28:070:28:10

elegant defences of this, like

Francis has, because voters are

0:28:100:28:14

listening to people like Chris.

0:28:140:28:22

listening to people like Chris.

If

you talk over each other, nobody can

0:28:220:28:25

hear. So I will live on is likely to

talk about Theresa May. Can she stay

0:28:250:28:33

on as leader, with all of this going

on?

Clearly, she can stay on.

How

0:28:330:28:40

close is a vote of confidence?

I

have no idea. You would have to ask

0:28:400:28:45

Graham Brady, and he certainly won't

tell you.

At the moment, viewing it

0:28:450:28:50

from the outside, as you are, on her

leadership, does you need to be

0:28:500:28:54

bolder about what she says on

Brexit?

Actually, I think she's

0:28:540:28:58

getting a bad rap on the sprigs of

thing. This idea that the Government

0:28:580:29:01

hasn't said what it wants. That

seems to me to be nonsense. It has

0:29:010:29:05

said what it once. It wants the

maximum frictionless trading and

0:29:050:29:11

maximum access to the single market,

particularly for financial services,

0:29:110:29:15

and it doesn't want to have to pay

for it. Doesn't want to have to

0:29:150:29:19

accept free movement. It does want

to have its cake, perfectly

0:29:190:29:25

reasonably.

So why the in the party?

What is going on is a very public

0:29:250:29:33

negotiation and what is going on in

the Conservative Party, completely

0:29:330:29:37

understandably, is a bit of the same

thing. People staking positions in

0:29:370:29:41

order to try to influence where this

quite corrugated negotiation ends

0:29:410:29:45

up.

Has she got a grip of the party

in negotiation?

I shouldn't think

0:29:450:29:50

anyone could have a grip of the

party at the moment because this is

0:29:500:29:53

a very intense time. Whoever was

leading the party at the moment

0:29:530:29:57

would have a really difficult time.

I did think it is necessarily -- I

0:29:570:30:02

don't think it is necessarily a

problem. What the direct will have

0:30:020:30:06

to do is engage very seriously with

the EU negotiators and work out what

0:30:060:30:12

are the gives, what is the settling

point, and it won't be a linear

0:30:120:30:19

spectrum between hard Brexit and

soft Brexit. There are lots of

0:30:190:30:22

different strands, some of them will

be met and the settling point...

0:30:220:30:30

Should a Government minister be

accusing the civil service of

0:30:300:30:33

obstructing Brexit?

I do what was

going on here I barely noticed it

0:30:330:30:43

was happening.

Should government

minister be criticising the civil

0:30:430:30:45

service in the way Steve Baker do in

the dispatch box?

I frequently got

0:30:450:30:50

called up for criticising the civil

service because it is ridiculous to

0:30:500:30:54

have this idea that ministers can

never be critical of the civil

0:30:540:30:58

service. Of course they can. I don't

know what was going on there. I

0:30:580:31:03

think the point Bill Cashmore is

making, that there is in much of the

0:31:030:31:07

political and governmental

establishment a deep seated comfort

0:31:070:31:12

with us being in the EU and

discomfort with us leaving it, and

0:31:120:31:15

that in the sub conscious and

unconscious, possibly makes a

0:31:150:31:20

difference.

Do you think Theresa May

would be advised to set a departure

0:31:200:31:26

date now, saying she was going to

go?

That will be totally out of her.

0:31:260:31:31

Of course it is but do you think it

would be wise?

I think you could

0:31:310:31:35

argue it both ways and it would

probably be an inconclusive

0:31:350:31:38

argument.

And on that, Francis

Maude, thank you.

0:31:380:31:43

Now, this weekend Jeremy Corbyn

will be speaking at a conference

0:31:430:31:46

of Labour local councillors.

0:31:460:31:47

But it has been a turbulent

few weeks for the party

0:31:470:31:49

in local government,

with a battle over the reselection

0:31:490:31:52

between existing councillors

and Momentum-backed candidates.

0:31:520:31:53

And that tension came to a head

in one local council -

0:31:530:31:56

Haringey - this week.

0:31:560:31:57

On Tuesday, the Labour leader

of Haringey Council in North London,

0:31:570:32:00

Claire Kober, announced she will be

stepping down in May,

0:32:000:32:02

citing "sexism, bullying"

and "undemocratic behaviour"

0:32:020:32:05

in personal attacks on her.

0:32:050:32:08

She had been embroiled in a public

row with Momentum members

0:32:080:32:11

in Haringey over a £2 billion deal

with a private property developer

0:32:110:32:15

to build 6,500 new homes.

0:32:150:32:20

Labour's National Executive

Committee - which is now controlled

0:32:200:32:22

by allies of Jeremy Corbyn -

intervened to put a stop

0:32:220:32:25

to the development.

0:32:250:32:27

This decision by the ruling body

was met with criticism from several

0:32:270:32:30

Labour council leaders

across the country,

0:32:300:32:32

who publicly backed Ms Kober.

0:32:320:32:35

Now the former Labour leader

of Harlow Council, Jon Clempner,

0:32:350:32:38

who resigned last month,

has blamed his decision to stand

0:32:380:32:40

down on an active campaign

against his leadership by a Momentum

0:32:400:32:44

organiser - he also claimed

he was "called a neo-Nazi"

0:32:440:32:48

by someone wearing a Corbyn T-shirt

outside the Labour Party Conference.

0:32:480:32:52

This is what Haringey Council leader

Claire Kober had to say

0:32:520:32:55

about her decision to step down.

0:32:550:32:57

I'm in no doubt that the behaviour

and actions of certain individuals

0:32:570:33:02

at certain times meet the test both

sexes, bullying and

0:33:020:33:06

intimidatory behaviour.

0:33:060:33:14

-- of both sexism...

0:33:160:33:17

And I have to say, if I look

at the NEC's actions last week, this

0:33:170:33:21

is the National Executive Committee

of the Labour Party deciding

0:33:210:33:23

to debate an issue without having

the courtesy to contact me

0:33:230:33:26

beforehand, during or immediately

after the meeting to

0:33:260:33:28

understand better the issue

that they wanted to discuss.

0:33:280:33:34

Our political correspondent

Iain Watson joins us now.

0:33:340:33:41

What is happening at this moment in

Haringey?

As you pointed out, I

0:33:410:33:47

think division, deselection is,

denunciations have been dominating

0:33:470:33:50

the news in Haringey but what I've

been trying to do is move a little

0:33:500:33:53

bit away from that process and look

at some of the policies that might

0:33:530:33:56

emerge as the party moves to the

left, towards Momentum, getting

0:33:560:34:00

greater influence as expected, after

the council elections when a new

0:34:000:34:09

leaders announce. On Sunday, members

are talking about the first age of

0:34:090:34:18

the manifesto. It will come as no

surprise that one of the things they

0:34:180:34:23

intend to do is scrap that

controversial housing scheme you

0:34:230:34:28

mentioned, the public-private

partnership to redevelop a housing

0:34:280:34:30

estate, but there are some other

interesting ideas which may be taken

0:34:300:34:33

by other councils they move to the

left too. They are talking about

0:34:330:34:39

abolishing council tax entirely the

lower income families, extending

0:34:390:34:42

free school meals to everyone in

primary schools, setting up a

0:34:420:34:46

not-for-profit lettings agency in

competition with the private sector

0:34:460:34:48

to offer homes beneath market rent.

Also you have that great with Chris

0:34:480:34:54

Williamson and Francis Maude on

outsourcing. In line with John

0:34:540:34:57

McDonell's wishes, they would want

to take back everything that has

0:34:570:35:00

been outsourced in the borough back

into public ownership and they're

0:35:000:35:04

also looking at perhaps a big hike

in pay for workers, as well, which

0:35:040:35:11

Salford council has already done.

What is interesting is that there

0:35:110:35:14

are no costings attached to these

ideas in the moment and what is

0:35:140:35:18

interesting also is that people are

portraying Haringey in a particular

0:35:180:35:22

light, I'm picking up from sources

that they are averse to hiking the

0:35:220:35:25

council tax by a large amount which

would pay the sum of these things

0:35:250:35:29

because of the scrutiny Haringey is

under the moment and they think they

0:35:290:35:32

may be effectively tarred with the

brush of tax-raising, rather than

0:35:320:35:37

redistribution, so they are

sensitive to some of those issues

0:35:370:35:39

there is one caveat when you go

through these policies and that is

0:35:390:35:43

that whatever the local grassroots

decide, the existing Labour group

0:35:430:35:47

has to sign of that manifesto, that

is the one still run by Claire

0:35:470:35:51

Kober, who is standing down, run by

a majority who are not Momentum

0:35:510:35:56

backers, and they may simply delete

some of the more radical overseas

0:35:560:35:59

that they don't like.

Thank you very

much.

0:35:590:36:02

We're joined now by a former Labour

activist in Haringey,

0:36:020:36:04

Nora Mulready, who has

resigned her membership

0:36:040:36:06

of the party after 20 years,

and Labour MP and Corbyn ally

0:36:060:36:09

Chris Williamson is

still with us in Derby.

0:36:090:36:12

Listening to some of those ideas

that Ian was talking about, do they

0:36:120:36:16

sound like good ideas to you?

I

think that one of the things that

0:36:160:36:21

when you spend time in Haringey you

realise is that at some point, not

0:36:210:36:27

Momentum activists are going to come

into contact with reality and that

0:36:270:36:30

is going to probably dramatically

change what they are suggesting can

0:36:300:36:35

happen. And I mean in terms of

money.

Why did you resign your

0:36:350:36:39

membership?

Er... A lot of different

issues. I think within the Labour

0:36:390:36:46

Party now there are two main things

going on - one is a battle for the

0:36:460:36:51

kind of political soul of the Labour

Party, and for my senses it is

0:36:510:36:58

between the people who are kind of

pragmatic left-wing people, like

0:36:580:37:03

Claire Kober and the Labour

councillors who are prepared to use

0:37:030:37:07

any tools available to try and

poverty while people, and people

0:37:070:37:13

like Chris, for example, who are...

Who plays a kind of ideological

0:37:130:37:20

commitment to an antipathy to the

private sector and to state delivery

0:37:200:37:23

of everything, above the needs of

people. So that's the politics, but

0:37:230:37:30

the other side of it, which, again,

Clare talked about, is the sheer

0:37:300:37:36

brutality of the discourse within

the Labour Party now, emanating from

0:37:360:37:43

Momentum. The fact is, if you stand

up to Momentum in Haringey and...

0:37:430:37:49

I've been contacted by people from

all over the country who have

0:37:490:37:55

experienced this, what is thrown at

you is abhorrent.

Is that

0:37:550:37:59

acceptable, Chris Williamson?

That

is not my experience and what we

0:37:590:38:02

have is a Labour Party which is a

mass movement now. The introduction

0:38:020:38:05

to this item talked about some of

the ideas that the members in

0:38:050:38:09

Haringey are looking at and that is

a fantastic exercise in democracy

0:38:090:38:13

and we should be celebrating that,

the fact that we are bringing people

0:38:130:38:17

into the party to discuss ideas and

hopefully move forward in a

0:38:170:38:21

consensus after a debate and

discussion has taken place. Surely

0:38:210:38:25

we should be celebrating that. I

need to correct you on one thing,

0:38:250:38:29

Jo, because you said the NEC had

intervened to stop the HDD from

0:38:290:38:34

going forward it but is not the

case. The National Executive

0:38:340:38:38

Committee of the Labour Party

debated about the NEC hasn't got the

0:38:380:38:42

power to stop it, they merely asked

the Labour group to pause and

0:38:420:38:46

consult on it.

I take your... The

question I ask you is about the

0:38:460:38:54

response of the brutality of the

discourse. Is it acceptable that

0:38:540:38:58

Claire Kober resigned and that Nora

Mulready has resigned her membership

0:38:580:39:01

because of claims of bullying and

sexism that they have personally

0:39:010:39:06

felt within the party?

If they felt

that, they need to report it and the

0:39:060:39:12

party will always investigate any

issues of concern about those sorts

0:39:120:39:17

of things but, as I say, it is

certainly not my experience and the

0:39:170:39:21

party now is a huge organisation. It

has more members than every other

0:39:210:39:24

political party put together. It is

very much reaching out to the wider

0:39:240:39:31

general public and people are

genuinely enthused and it's not

0:39:310:39:35

about being extremists. The Labour

Party is the mainstream. What the

0:39:350:39:39

Labour Party is now advocating is

what the vast majority of the people

0:39:390:39:42

want in this country. In all of the

opinion polls, they agree with us.

0:39:420:39:46

It is not extremism, it is the

mainstream.

That is correct in terms

0:39:460:39:49

of the swell of the membership, the

party is the biggest party and is

0:39:490:39:53

reaching out to the public in

0:39:530:40:03

reaching out to the public in a way

not seen before. To you accept what

0:40:030:40:05

Chris Williamson says?

No,

absolutely not, I'm sorry, Chris. To

0:40:050:40:07

give you some examples, Claire Kober

was repeatedly called an ethnic

0:40:070:40:09

cleanser and social cleanser as a

result of wanted to regenerate one

0:40:090:40:12

of the most deprived communities in

the borough. Not a single person was

0:40:120:40:14

going to be moved off that estate.

Every of them was promised the right

0:40:140:40:21

to the rights to have a property as

part of the regeneration. Sorry,

0:40:210:40:26

every council tenant had been

offered that. But she was routinely

0:40:260:40:30

accused of social cleansing and even

ethnic cleansing by members of the

0:40:300:40:34

Labour Party, so in terms of the

bullying it is not a case of simply

0:40:340:40:38

coming up to be blinded timidity on

them in that sense. The actual

0:40:380:40:42

brutality that language was

disgusting and it was never ever

0:40:420:40:47

called out by anyone within the

hierarchy.

I'm going to come to you,

0:40:470:40:52

Zoe, in a second. Should it be

called out, Chris Williamson? Are

0:40:520:40:56

you shocked to hear that sort of

allegation levelled within the

0:40:560:40:59

Labour Party?

Nora is making those

allegations right now and if people

0:40:590:41:04

have got concerns and evidence...

But does that concern you, that

0:41:040:41:08

Claire Kober was called a social

cleanser and an ethnic cleanser by

0:41:080:41:12

people with the Labour Party?

Publicly, they have written

0:41:120:41:16

articles.

Let him answer., Chris,

what do you say?

Obviously, I think

0:41:160:41:22

people need to moderate their

language and begin a comradely way

0:41:220:41:26

to people. But this isn't a fringe

activity or a handful of extremists

0:41:260:41:32

who are pushing this agenda. The

proposition that was being put

0:41:320:41:35

forward by the Labour group on

Haringey was opposed by the local

0:41:350:41:43

MPs, it was overwhelmingly rejected

by the vast majority of people, as I

0:41:430:41:48

understand it, living in Haringey,

and that's why this exercise in

0:41:480:41:51

democracy has taken place in

Haringey. It should be celebrated.

0:41:510:41:56

The criticism is about the way the

discourse has been handled. Do you

0:41:560:42:00

think there should be an

investigation? Your colleague the

0:42:000:42:04

shadow Brexit minister Jenny Chapman

said two days ago that there should

0:42:040:42:08

be in inquiry into the allegations

that Claire Kober has made in the

0:42:080:42:11

weight she was bullied.

Claire Kober

needs to make those allegations to

0:42:110:42:17

the...

She has, but should there be

investigation? Jenny Chapman said

0:42:170:42:22

there should be did

The NEC will

have to review that and see if there

0:42:220:42:25

is any merit in further

investigation.

Is that a yes or a

0:42:250:42:29

note in your support for an inquiry?

I've not seen the evidence, all I've

0:42:290:42:33

said as he is it.

This is the

problem...

Saying look at the

0:42:330:42:42

evidence and allow the people who

are charged with allsorts of

0:42:420:42:47

investigations. It is not helpful

for people like me to be

0:42:470:42:49

pontificating on the sidelines.

Are

you on the sidelines? Let me bring

0:42:490:42:54

Zoe in. Rhead I want to play Relate

for a second because I think part of

0:42:540:43:00

the problem is that it has been

taken as an interparty battle of

0:43:000:43:02

such proportions that one side of

the party has to be wrong in order

0:43:020:43:08

for the other to survive.

The

situation in Haringey, replicated in

0:43:080:43:12

London boroughs across London, is

that PF ideals have not delivered

0:43:120:43:16

the things that they promised to

residents and residents do feel

0:43:160:43:20

incredibly angry and this idea that

councils can't afford to pay care

0:43:200:43:25

workers properly, they can't afford

to do this, this is the new reality,

0:43:250:43:29

we're basically dealing with a

Conservative austerity programme and

0:43:290:43:32

the argument...

But should it have

ended with the leader of the council

0:43:320:43:36

resigning?

Wait, wait. The people

are quite angry and it is not

0:43:360:43:41

Momentum. It is an actual housing

group. Of course they're going to be

0:43:410:43:45

angry because there is a huge

amount...

Isn't this democracy in

0:43:450:43:49

action?

It is not even the Labour

Party. Half of them are Greens.

I

0:43:490:43:58

found Chris Preddie chilling there

because he is completely deadpan

0:43:580:44:01

damn the camera. He is hearing the

allegations. -- I found Chris pretty

0:44:010:44:07

chilling. He is just saying,

reported to the NEC. We all know the

0:44:070:44:15

NEC has just been taken over by and

Momentum supporters and they run the

0:44:150:44:19

complaints service. The most

dangerous thing for the Labour Party

0:44:190:44:23

is this...

Let him finish the

sentence.

The problem for the Labour

0:44:230:44:27

Party is that Jeremy Corbyn seems

this nice, bearded, fluffy guy who

0:44:270:44:32

are sized animals, doesn't eat meat

and doesn't drink and it is all very

0:44:320:44:35

nice but on the ground, as soon as

his supporters get any sniff of

0:44:350:44:39

power, it ends up with situations

like this.

I need to let Chris

0:44:390:44:42

Williamson respond. Briefly, we are

running out of time.

Of course. That

0:44:420:44:49

is a ludicrous proposition, to

suggest that the Labour Party is

0:44:490:44:54

being taken over by Momentum. It is

an exercise in democracy. People put

0:44:540:44:58

themselves up for election and were

overwhelmingly returned by the

0:44:580:45:02

Labour Party membership. Let's

celebrate democracy!

While you are

0:45:020:45:06

celebrating, yes or no, do you

regret that people like Nora had

0:45:060:45:09

left the party and that Claire Kober

has resigned?

Well, the Labour Party

0:45:090:45:14

is a Broadchurch.

I said yes or no,

do you regret it?

I would sooner

0:45:140:45:18

people stay in the party and work

together to beat the Conservatives.

0:45:180:45:22

We are going to have to leave it

there. Nora and Chris, thank you

0:45:220:45:26

very much.

0:45:260:45:28

Now, who's your political hero?

0:45:280:45:30

We've all got someone we admire -

and politicians are no exception.

0:45:300:45:33

Elizabeth Glinka sat down

with former Conservative Party

0:45:330:45:34

leader William Hague to talk

about his favourite

0:45:340:45:36

political figure.

0:45:360:45:44

William Hague, who is

your political hero?

0:45:460:45:51

My hero is William Pitt the Younger,

the youngest Prime Minister ever

0:45:510:45:54

in the history of this country,

24 years old, written

0:45:540:46:00

off at the time as just

a mince pie Prime Minister,

0:46:000:46:03

a Prime Minister for

Christmas and then out,

0:46:030:46:07

and he served 19 years.

0:46:070:46:08

When did you first come across him?

0:46:080:46:10

Was it at school?

0:46:100:46:11

I first came across him

from Margaret Thatcher,

0:46:110:46:13

would you believe?

0:46:130:46:16

When I had my own fit

of youthful endeavour

0:46:160:46:20

in politics as a 16-year-old...

0:46:200:46:23

It is all right for some of you.

0:46:230:46:27

Half of you won't be

here in 30 or 40 years' time.

0:46:270:46:30

I was hauled off to see

Margaret Thatcher and she said

0:46:300:46:34

to the assembled press,

"We might be standing

0:46:340:46:37

here with another William Pitt,"

so I thought, "I'd better go

0:46:370:46:39

and find out about

this William Pitt."

0:46:390:46:41

Well, as I did over the following 20

years, I became a great admirer.

0:46:410:46:45

Pitt the Younger, so styled

because his father, another William,

0:46:450:46:48

had also been Prime Minister.

0:46:480:46:49

He was a prodigy.

0:46:490:46:52

He graduated from Cambridge at 17

and became an MP four

0:46:520:46:55

years later, in 1781.

0:46:550:46:58

A reformer, he considered himself

not a Tory but an independent.

0:46:580:47:02

He seems to me to be

an undervalued figure in history

0:47:020:47:07

and his name would come up

in an episode of Blackadder.

0:47:070:47:11

Mr Pitt is the Prime Minister, sir.

0:47:110:47:14

Oh, go on!

0:47:140:47:15

Is he?

0:47:150:47:17

Young snotty here?

0:47:170:47:20

Actually, he was this

towering figure who stood

0:47:200:47:22

alone against Napoleon.

0:47:220:47:24

He plotted naval strategy

with Nelson, he dealt

0:47:240:47:27

with the most extraordinary

range of circumstances.

0:47:270:47:31

Pitt took over as Britain

was rocked by the loss

0:47:310:47:34

of its American colonies.

0:47:340:47:40

With the national debt

spiraling, Honest Billy set

0:47:400:47:42

about steadying the ship.

0:47:420:47:50

He would later introduce income tax

and the first paper money.

0:47:500:47:53

This was much mocked at the time,

that just like they said how

0:47:530:47:56

Augustus had found Rome of brick

and left it marble, so he had found

0:47:560:47:59

England made of gold

and left it made of paper.

0:47:590:48:07

His keeping the country

creditworthy, the inexhaustible

0:48:090:48:16

credit of the City of London

and Britain at that time,

0:48:160:48:19

that allowed it to overcome

Napoleon in the end,

0:48:190:48:21

because the French could hardly ever

run out of men and Britain

0:48:210:48:24

could hardly ever run out of money.

0:48:240:48:26

And that rivalry with the French

emperor would come to

0:48:260:48:28

define his premiership.

0:48:280:48:29

Pitt was the great figure

in the world, opposing Napoleon,

0:48:290:48:32

and you can see the illustrations

of the time of Pitt and Napoleon

0:48:320:48:35

carving the world between them.

0:48:350:48:38

Despite his success, Pitt

was famously aloof and even shy.

0:48:380:48:42

He never married and his devotion

to his country consumed his life.

0:48:420:48:45

His drinking contributing

to his death at just 46.

0:48:450:48:48

Becoming so powerful so early

in life actually stunted his growth

0:48:480:48:52

as a human being in other ways.

0:48:520:49:00

You don't make new friends

or develop new interests if you are

0:49:000:49:02

at the heart of government.

0:49:020:49:06

And you talk about how his coming

to power at such a young age

0:49:060:49:09

may have affected his

persona, his personality.

0:49:090:49:11

You were party leader

very young, mid-30s.

0:49:110:49:14

Did that affect how you portrayed

yourself in the public sphere?

0:49:140:49:20

All of us who are in those

situations experience a bit

0:49:200:49:23

of what William Pitt did.

0:49:230:49:27

Most of us have periods where we go

out of office and we see

0:49:270:49:31

life in a different way

and when the world looks rather

0:49:310:49:36

monochrome as a senior politician,

it all gets its colour again

0:49:360:49:39

when you leave politics.

0:49:390:49:41

People described him as sort

of buttoned up and stoic.

0:49:410:49:44

Is that something that

resonated with you?

0:49:440:49:45

Well, hopefully I'm not like that.

0:49:450:49:52

Something that I do identify

with is that he really

0:49:520:49:54

gave full vent to his

personality in Parliament.

0:49:540:49:59

And this is an age when the House of

Commons had in it Charles James Fox,

0:49:590:50:03

Richard Brinsley Sheridan,

Edmund Burke, William Wilberforce.

0:50:030:50:07

This is an age that makes

today's parliament look

0:50:070:50:09

pedestrian in the extreme.

0:50:090:50:11

I suspect I would have been happier

in the 18th-century parliament -

0:50:110:50:15

although much less likely to be

in it, of course - than in the late

0:50:150:50:19

20th century Parliament.

0:50:190:50:24

And is it that steadiness, then,

that you really admire?

0:50:240:50:26

Is that the core of it?

0:50:260:50:28

Yes, I do.

0:50:280:50:29

He is the pilot who

weathered the storm.

0:50:290:50:33

He said he would prefer to die

at his post rather than desert it -

0:50:330:50:36

not something we often associate

with political leaders.

0:50:360:50:39

And he did, indeed, die at his post.

0:50:390:50:42

William Hague, thank you very much.

0:50:420:50:44

Thank you.

0:50:440:50:52

William Hague there on his political

hero, Pitt the Younger. Other films

0:50:530:51:00

in the series are available on the

website.

0:51:000:51:03

Earlier this week Donald Trump

gave his State of the Union address

0:51:030:51:06

to Congress, where he hailed

the "new American moment"

0:51:060:51:08

and struck a conciliatory tone

towards the Democrats, calling

0:51:080:51:10

for them to work together.

0:51:100:51:11

The address is an annual speech

where the President gets to set

0:51:110:51:14

out his agenda for the next year

and talk about what

0:51:140:51:17

he's achieved so far.

0:51:170:51:18

Here's a flavour of what he said.

0:51:180:51:22

Tonight, I call upon all of us

to set aside our differences,

0:51:220:51:27

to seek out common ground

and to summon the unity we need

0:51:270:51:29

to deliver for the people.

0:51:290:51:33

This is really a kid.

0:51:330:51:36

These are the people

we were elected to serve.

0:51:360:51:42

And just as I promised

the American people from this

0:51:420:51:44

podium 11 months ago,

we enacted the biggest tax cuts

0:51:440:51:46

and reforms in American history.

0:51:460:51:48

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:51:480:51:55

We repealed the core

of the disastrous Obamacare.

0:51:550:51:59

The individual mandate is now gone.

0:51:590:52:05

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:52:050:52:11

And we're joined now by former

Conservative MP and Trump

0:52:110:52:13

Twitter-critic-in-chief

Louise Mensch.

0:52:130:52:19

What a catchy title. Welcome. Did

you welcome the more conciliatory

0:52:190:52:24

tone in his address?

I paid quite

literally no attention to it.

What,

0:52:240:52:30

the address at all?

Not really, no.

I know what is coming down in the

0:52:300:52:35

investigation. At the time

0:52:350:52:40

investigation. At the time this

year, he got half a day's news cycle

0:52:410:52:45

like he is getting now. Then the

general Flynn news cycle. Today, the

0:52:450:52:51

news has already moved on to the

giant fighter Donald Trump is having

0:52:510:52:54

with the FBI.

You have already

tweeted in response to Donald

0:52:540:52:59

Trump's tweet. The top leadership of

the FBI and the Justice Department

0:52:590:53:07

have politicised the sacred

investigative process in favour of

0:53:070:53:10

Democrats and against Republicans-

something that would have been

0:53:100:53:12

unbeatable just a short time ago.

Rank and file are great people.

Bob

0:53:120:53:19

Mueller, Republican. He will have a

really hard time making this case.

0:53:190:53:25

And of course criminals don't like

cops. That is what you have got

0:53:250:53:28

there. He can to eat all day long.

Nothing is going to change. Do you

0:53:280:53:33

think it is all coming down the

track to Donald Trump?

I don't know.

0:53:330:53:39

I've been making predictions and may

never come true. I think this does

0:53:390:53:44

have some traction. I actually did

quite interesting and nuanced speech

0:53:440:53:54

about how America first doesn't

necessarily mean America alone. But

0:53:540:53:58

he is always unable to keep it up

very long.

But he did extend a hand

0:53:580:54:04

to the Democrats. He spoke of a tide

of optimism. It is an improvement if

0:54:040:54:09

you're looking at it from your

perspective, Louise, in terms of the

0:54:090:54:15

rhetoric?

But at some point, he is

going to come up against the

0:54:150:54:21

investigation and up against into

stations which will hold on to some

0:54:210:54:23

sort of account. -- up against

institutions.

The difference with

0:54:230:54:30

the speeches and the improper to

question session and the speeches is

0:54:300:54:35

that somebody else writes the

speeches.

Funnily enough, that's not

0:54:350:54:38

the biggest revelation to make an

politics.

They're not authentic. The

0:54:380:54:45

tweets are.

What about his core

base? He has delivered to that core

0:54:450:54:52

base.

The tax plan has been

delivered. And people are finding

0:54:520:54:58

out it's not as bad as all that,

which is why some moderate

0:54:580:55:01

Republicans I think about it for

that tax plan. I'm completely

0:55:010:55:05

uninterested in politics because we

are in the middle of Watergate and

0:55:050:55:08

that is what I am completely focus

on.

But he has the core behind him.

0:55:080:55:15

But does he really? They have him

rated at a gigantic high but he got

0:55:150:55:21

the lowest approval ratings or any

president since polling began for

0:55:210:55:28

his first year.

Sure, but he's not

going to care about that

0:55:280:55:31

particularly at the moment. They

will point to in the White House 2.4

0:55:310:55:35

million jobs, people will have more

money in their pockets, you talked

0:55:350:55:39

about the tax cuts, growth is up.

It's the economy, stupid.

Then, why

0:55:390:55:46

aren't his ratings higher? When you

come to an all-time high of only

0:55:460:55:50

42%, that's just not very good.

That's what this programme is about.

0:55:500:55:56

You have only just realised then

that is the end of the show.

It is

0:55:560:56:00

the same thing with Brexit and David

Cameron said it so well, it's not

0:56:000:56:03

what everyone would have chosen, but

actually it hasn't been as bad as

0:56:030:56:06

everyone would have predicted it to

be. Really, has it?

You thought it

0:56:060:56:11

was going to be better, did you?

The

only thing I am slightly surprised

0:56:110:56:17

about is that it has taken this

long. I think Orange will be the new

0:56:170:56:22

orange. You said on Twitter, I am

enjoying this thoroughly. Good

0:56:220:56:28

things are about to happen. Rats

bared their fangs because they're in

0:56:280:56:32

a corner. Get your champagne and

popcorn ready. What things are going

0:56:320:56:35

to happen?

Well, we will see what

happens after the state of the

0:56:350:56:39

union. The real author of this memo

suddenly announced that he is going

0:56:390:56:43

to step down. Oh, what a surprise!

He was undoubtably forced into that,

0:56:430:56:47

and I think what you see here is the

Justice Department is not taking any

0:56:470:56:52

rubbish from him over this

ridiculous attempt at a smear.

If

0:56:520:56:57

that were getting the champagne and

popcorn out?

No, I think the Mueller

0:56:570:57:04

interview with Trump will be worth

that.

It is not a done deal, is it?

0:57:040:57:10

Exactly as you said about cornered

rats showing their teeth. If he goes

0:57:100:57:13

into a situation which it had

blasted his way out of, then I think

0:57:130:57:17

we will start seeing the sort of

things we are also scared about

0:57:170:57:19

anti-Cameroonian it is not as bad as

it looked -- and the quote from

0:57:190:57:27

David Cameron it is not as bad as it

looked like not be true.

Is it as it

0:57:270:57:35

begins to spill into the conspiracy

theory arena and then you start to

0:57:350:57:38

lose people, and then they don't

trust what you are saying.

I really

0:57:380:57:42

don't care about that because what I

am reporting is true. Conspiracy is

0:57:420:57:45

not a theory. Mueller already has

three convictions from people who

0:57:450:57:50

have admitted it and only Paul

Manafort is denying it. Just

0:57:500:57:55

yesterday, Rick Gates decided to

flip and cooperate with prosecutors.

0:57:550:57:59

Watergate was a lot of nothing until

all of a sudden there were tens of

0:57:590:58:03

indictments handed out in a single

day and this is what you will find

0:58:030:58:06

out -- this time too.

Do you think

Theresa May can last the course of

0:58:060:58:13

Brexit?

Yes. I hadn't

0:58:130:58:19

Brexit?

Yes. I hadn't played paid

much attention but she always seems

0:58:190:58:21

to be going out and then doesn't.

She is a steady hand. And as all the

0:58:210:58:26

chaos that is going on, I struggle

to think they would get to replace,

0:58:260:58:29

so I think she will fine.

0:58:290:58:31

There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz.

0:58:310:58:35

The question was ...

0:58:350:58:36

What nickname have the Chinese

given Theresa May?

0:58:360:58:38

Was it...

0:58:380:58:39

A - Mummy May?

0:58:390:58:40

B - Granny May?

0:58:400:58:41

C - Auntie May?

0:58:410:58:42

Or D - Sister May?

0:58:420:58:43

So, Harry and Zoe,

what's the correct answer?

0:58:430:58:45

It's Auntie May!

0:58:450:58:48

That's all for today.

0:58:480:58:49

Thanks to my guests.

0:58:490:58:51

The one o'clock news is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:58:510:58:53

Sarah Smith will be back

on Sunday on BBC One at 11

0:58:530:58:56

with the Sunday Politics.

0:58:560:58:57

And I'll be back here

on BBC Two on Monday at midday

0:58:570:59:00

with more Daily Politics.

0:59:000:59:01

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