Jo Coburn is joined by Sir Bill Cash and Francis Maude to discuss Theresa May's leadership and Brexit. Plus William Hague talks about his political hero - Pitt the Younger.
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Hello and welcome to
the Daily Politics.
Theresa May hails £9 billion worth
of trade deals as her three-day trip
to China comes to a close -
but has she done enough
to persuade her fractious party
that she has a vision
for Britain and Brexit?
Carillion collapsed -
now other private firms that deliver
public services could be in trouble.
Is the outsourcing model broken?
Labour councillors quit, saying
they've been bullied or intimidated
by pro-Corbyn activists.
Is Labour the new nasty party?
And one of the youngest Tory Leaders
chooses the youngest ever prime
minister as his political hero.
I first came across him from
Margaret Thatcher, can you believe?
All that in the next hour
and with us for the duration,
two political heroes of mine -
Harry Cole of the Sun
and Zoe Williams of the Guardian.
Welcome to the programme.
So, Theresa May is returning
to Britain with a fistful of trade
deals and talking up the UK's
the European Union.
But her trade tour of China has been
overshadowed by noises off
from her own MPs here in Westminster
and demands that she provides more
clarity on the UK's negotiating
position as the second stage
of Brexit talks begin.
Just before she boarded a plane
in Shanghai she spoke
to the BBC's political editor,
Laura Kuenssberg, who asked her
whether it was time to fill
in the blanks on what she really
wanted from Brexit.
We're now starting to negotiate that
free trade agreement
with the European Union.
We want that to enable trade to take
place on as frictionless
and tariff-free a basis as possible
across our borders.
But, of course, we also want to be
signing trade deals around
the rest of the world,
like here in China.
Prime Minister, there's
a fundamental choice,
though, here, isn't there?
Your Chancellor has said he believes
the changes might be very modest.
One of your former Brexit ministers,
who is on your side,
has said the Government is yet
to make clear choices and you're
risking ending up with something
that looks like meaningless waffle.
There are big choices here that
you haven't yet made,
or you're not willing to tell us.
The negotiations with the
European Union are in two phases.
We completed the first phase...
And we are in the second phase now.
Time is running out.
We've just entered the second phase.
If you look back to what happened
in the first phase, many people said
we wouldn't get a deal,
many people said we wouldn't be able
to come to an agreement with the EU
and many people said we wouldn't get
what we wanted.
That's been done and now we move
on and what people want to know...
Yes, but this is...
But the point is...
It is fundamentally...
The point is that that deal,
which many people said
would not be done, was done.
We got what we wanted.
We ensured that we dealt with those
issues in that first phase.
Now we start the negotiations
for the second phase.
We want that free trade agreement,
we negotiate a free trade agreement
with the European Union.
We want that to be on as
tariff-free and frictionless
a basis as possible.
That will be good
for jobs in the UK.
But that also gives us the freedom
to be able to negotiate and to sign
up trade deals around the rest
of the world.
That's good for prosperity and jobs
and people in Britain, too.
Prime Minister, you know very well,
though, that the decision time
is fast approaching.
Now, our viewers can hear
when you are reluctant
to give any more detail.
I ask you again, which is
more important to you -
less disruption to the economy
or more control for our parliament
and our politicians?
Because the EU, many
people in business, many
members of the public,
many people in your party believe
you simply can't have both,
and you must now come clean
on what you really want
or it risks you looking
like you don't know what you want.
You see, I don't believe
that those are alternatives.
What the British people voted
for is for us to take back
control of our money,
our borders and our laws and that's
exactly what we are going to do.
And we're joined now by the veteran
Conservative Brexiteer Bill Cash.
Welcome to the programme. Does
Theresa May need to set out her
ambition for Brexit more clearly
Brexit, she said, means Brexit.
We've got the Article 50 act through
by 499 in the House of Commons.
We've also got the withdrawal bill
through the House of commons by a
bigger majority on second reading.
The negotiations are running
parallel to this. It is bound to be
difficult. There is no question
about that. The European scrutiny
committee is looking into the ins
and outs of it. In terms of her and
the way it is all being conducted,
the fact is... I said recently we
need to have what I call a grown-up
discussion, knowing that there are
serious differences about the
endgame but, actually, if you look
what the EU wants, they want
political union. There was no way we
could stay in that EU.
Theresa May need to set up what she
wants more clearly?
I would like to
see more emphasis on what the
objectives of the EU are entered as
a political union, the fact that
they run a system of making laws
which we couldn't possibly live with
behind closed doors, the democracy
that we represent, the terrific
opportunities that we have in the
global market, of which this China
deal is an example.
disappointed that she hasn't said
I'm saying at the
moment we are waiting for her to
make a big speech, which I think is
It is not, actually. She's
going to deliver a speech on
security but not a big speech in the
way you have characterised
the moment is going to come when we
need to get that big vision out
there because I think a lot of
people are squabbling amongst one
another about what they want, where
is that the ultimate objectives in
the national interests are clearly
to repeal the 72 act, get the bill
through the House of Lords with
possibly some amendments, and the
bottom-line is that the really big
vision is about stopping our being
part of a union. We can't reverse,
we can't remain. We actually have to
get into the serious business of
having our own lawmaking, our own
borders, our own money.
You said the
party are squabbling. Has Theresa
May got a grip of the Conservative
I think there are too many
people who are running around at the
moment giving an impression, which
are really differences of opinion,
we hear it in the tea room and
elsewhere, but the reality is that
actually, when it comes to the
votes, rather than the arguments,
the votes are going through.
differences of opinion, it is more
than differences of opinion. Tempers
are flying left, right and centre.
There is a daily outpouring of Tory
MPs basically criticising the
opposite side when it comes to
Brexit and not just on Brexit. Even
your colleagues Jacob Rees-Mogg is
basically accusing the civil service
of not actually... Or betraying what
Brexit was all about, even though
the Government has tasked the civil
service with finding out what they
should be doing. Is that correct?
you look at what has happened over
Project Fear, I distinctly remember
how the information process was
begun and it is this... It was
agreed that it would be a completely
impartial process and it was not.
There is a kind of status quo,
institutionalised attitude within
parts of the civil service and, in a
way, you can hardly blame them, for
this reason. Actually, they have
grown up with this. When you heard
the secretary of the Cabinet saying
that the repeal of the 1972 act was
a dagger in his soul, that is the
kind of thing... Lyubov Waite, civil
servants, if they had a clear steer,
would be prosecuting that steered.
The problem is, nobody will tell
them what to do. You seem to have
missed something. They have got a
They don't even know if
you want to stay in the customs
union or not.
We're not going to be
a customs union or the single.
talk over each
talk over each other, and let Zoe
When the council decision
was announced two or three days ago,
the fact is that in that document it
actually prescribes that we would be
in the customs union and in the
single market, that we would be
subject to the court of justice.
These are the really big questions
of the fact is that the Government
is saying we will not be the customs
union or the single market for one
reason, and that is if you repeal
the 1972 act, you change the whole
nature of the relationship.
problem is, and it is perfectly
demonstrated here, people are going
to project on the Prime Minister
what they want because there is a
vacuum. The problem for the Prime
Minister is that she's in a Catch-22
situation. Because of her gamble
last year, she has ended up in a
situation where there are 15 people
on the Remain side of the party, the
pro-EU wing, who wonders of Brexit,
and there are maybe 40 or even 50 on
the hard Brexit side who want a
pure, clean break with Brussels. At
this point, she has got upset one of
those wings. And she is trying to
juggle all these plates for so long,
eventually she has got to break.
This makes literally no sense. You
are both sitting here saying we are
completely resolved and leaving the
single market and the customs union.
If that were clear, there wouldn't
be a vacuum.
The vacuum is what
replaces it. The decision has been
Let me ask your question. Is
Theresa May still the best person in
your mind to deliver Brexit?
believe so, because actually we've
got a programme, she is following it
through, you got the Lancaster House
speech. We are the transitional
period. There are a number of
questions... We are in the middle of
the associated what that is going to
Harry has just said, in a
political vacuum various wings of
the party are projecting out to the
party what they think Brexit should
be. Would Brexit be better delivered
by somebody who voted to leave the
EU in the referendum?
She has made
an even bigger transition in a
sense, from going for Remain to a
situation where she is pursuing a
policy, getting the bills and we
have already gone through.
Brexit be better delivered by her or
somebody who voted to leave?
is that she is doing a very good job
in making sure that we deliver the
votes in the House of Commons, and
that is what matters. Is
So why the
squabbling? Why this daily browing?
You tell me.
I am not a member of
the Tory body or an MP.
I am saying
that their arguments are the
inevitable. Would you be surprised
if they weren't going to argue?
have talked a bit about the civil
service. Brexit colleagues like
Jacob Rees-Mogg have been
denigrating civil servants who work
for your Government, and then we had
the unedifying spectacle of Steve
Baker, a government minister,
accusing civil servants of skewing
the data to undermine the case for
leaving the EU and then having to
apologise to the House because he
got it wrong. Let's have a listen to
Yesterday, I answer the question
based on my honest recollection of a
conversation. As I explained
yesterday, I considered what I
understood the question being put to
me as implausible because of a
long-standing and well-regarded
impartiality of the civil service.
The audio of that conversation is
now available and I am glad the
record stand corrected. In the
context of that audio, I accept that
I should have corrected or dismissed
the premise of my honourable
friend's question. I have apologised
to Mr Charles Grant, an honest and
trustworthy man. As I have put on
record many times, I have the
highest regard for our hard-working
civil servants. I am grateful for
this early opportunity to correct
the record, Mr Depp is bigger, and I
apologise to the House.
did he get right? You said some of
it was true.
I'm saying that impact
when he may be apology, that, as far
as I'm concerned, draws line under
it. It appears from what I saw, and
I wasn't in the House at the time,
but my understanding of it is that
he was presented with a question
which was based on a degree of
hearsay and I think you
misunderstood the nature of the
Do you have any comment to
make about the fact that he only
apologised once the audio was
I haven't the audio.
right to deliberately accuse...
Sorry, accuse the civil service of
deliberately drawing up negative
assessments of Brexit?
You do think it is
true so why did he apologise?
not saying that, I'm talking about
In these recent
assessments that were leaked to...
Steve Baker basically said, until
the audio was actually released
which proved to be wrong, he said
the civil service had
deliberately... How can an minister
get it wrong, accusing his own civil
servants of deliberately doing
something that they didn't do?
think you're putting a bit too much
emphasis on the word to
deliberately. I don't think from
what I saw that he had done it to
liberally. I think there was a
misunderstanding and I think it's
quite right for him to apologise but
leave it at that.
People are now
saying openly what they have been
saying privately since the
referendum, the wounds are still raw
among people like Steve Baker, an
arch Brexiteer and a very respected
person on that side of the debate.
They are still fighting the battles
of the referendum, where they work
actually pretty much against the
entire British establishment who
wanted Britain to stay in and that
haven't healed. Located in the
context of this week. The Brexit
department were blindsided by this
leak Monday, and Steve evidently
didn't know that his own boss and
the Prime Minister had commissioned
this work, so you can start to see
that sort of conspiracy appearing.
It is so maddening. What is so
maddening about this is that every
single time it is like, oh, well,
the Remainers are doing this again,
the civil service Remainers are
doing that, exactly what they did in
the referendum. Weighted.
legitimate, given there is a track
A won the referendum. And
they had a project, they could get
on and do it. What is derailing them
is not having a project and when
they are derailed by their own lack
of budget, they turn round and say,
Hang on. There is a
legitimate claim to be made about
the civil service?
the civil service?
No, I am simply
saying if you look at the pass,
there is a book written by Michael
Charlton for the BBC, that is no
doubt when you we'd the recorded
interviews of people like Conor
O'Neill and others, you will see
they had an attitude of mind. They
wanted a certain objective.
college was on the programme a few
days ago at the end of last week and
said that if, in the end, there is
drift towards a softer Brexit and
the Government does contemplate an
go ahead with remaining in the
customs union of some sort, with the
European Union, that there would be
ructions, he said, in the country
and it would be an existential
question for the Tory party. Do you
I think there are serious
questions inherent in the
distinction, as I would put it,
between as I said in the debate on
this the other day, between being in
the custom union and eight custom
What he is saying is...
were to stay in indefinitely, of
course there would be a massive row,
but that is not what is happening.
It looks very like the suggestion on
the table is really all of these
unions and then we create something
as much like them as possible and
then we joined those, at gargantuan
expense and a huge waste of time.
will leave it there.
Now it's time for our daily quiz.
The question for today is...
What nickname have the Chinese
given Theresa May?
A - Mummy May?
B - Granny May?
C - Auntie May?
Or D - Sister May?
At the end of the show,
Zoe and Harry will give
us the correct answer.
377 job losses have been announced
this morning at the construction
and outsourcing firm Carillion that
went in receivership last mont.
That firm's failure has been
followed by profit warnings
and share price falls from other
companies in the sector.
So is the outsourcing model
that's been encouraged
by successive governments broken?
Last month, the construction giant
after it was unable to secure
to continue trading.
On Wednesday, more than £1 billion
was wiped off the stock
market value of Capita,
which also handles
Other firms - Interserve,
Mitie and Serco - have also
seen their shares slide as investor
concerns mount about the state
of the wider outsourcing sector.
Labour have called for
an end to what they call
the outsourcing racket.
Under their plans, the public sector
would be the default choice
for providing government services.
Jeremy Corbyn has also pledged
a wage cap on bosses
running the firms.
Companies bidding for public-sector
work would have to stop executives
earning more than 20 times the wage
of their lowest paid worker.
In the Commons yesterday,
Labour's Rachel Reeves put down
an urgent question on Capita.
Oliver Dowden, Minister
for the Cabinet Office, responded.
The issues that led
to the insolvency of Carillion
will come out in due course
but our current assessment
is that they primarily flowed
from difficulties in construction
contracts, including overseas.
By contrast, Capita is primarily
a services business and 92%
of Capita's revenues come
from within the United Kingdom.
Now, as members would expect,
we regularly monitor the financial
stability of all our strategic
suppliers, including Capita,
and as I've said, we do not believe
any of them are in a comparable
position to Carillion.
And joining us now from Derby
is the Labour MP Chris Williamson.
And we're joined here in the studio
by the former Conservative
minister Francis Maude.
Welcome to both of you. Chris
Williamson, Oliver Dowden said the
Government does not believe Capita
is in anyway in a common position to
Carillion. They are not the same,
are they? They would say that,
wouldn't they? Clearly, there is a
concern because Capita has issued a
profit warning and they are in some
difficulties, it seems to me. This
is the same pattern that was
followed by Carillion. I frankly
think that the outsourcing model is
broken. It is one that has been used
for the past four decades and I
need to move away from it to a
system which is more trustworthy and
better value for money.
means bringing everything into the
public sector, then, in your mind?
That should be the default position.
That is the Labour Party's position,
as you said in the opening package
there. I think it is more
cost-effective, accountable, and
transparent. These companies are
exempt from the Freedom of
Information Act provision. So these
people are getting away potentially
with murder, really. And we need to
call a halt to it and get better
value for money for the taxpayer,
and better democratic oversight of
these activities. We can't allow
these companies to continue going
bust and ripping off the public
Should more alarm bells be
ringing? Are you worried about the
state of Capita, bearing in mind
what happened to Carillion? Capita
has even more public sector
contracts than Carillion. It is the
Noel. But it has to
be managed in a very active and
effective way. I don't know what is
going on in Capita. They are obliged
to be open about what is going on.
They have issued a profit warning
and all of flats is there on the
face of it. But outsourcing is not a
panacea for every ill. Chris is a
hardline ideologues who thinks
private sector bad, public sector
automatically good. I'm not someone
who thinks the reverse. I think it
is horses for courses. But if you do
outsource, you need to do it well.
Right. But it wasn't done well under
Carillion, was it? Because the
Government had the ball literally
pulled over its eyes.
One of the
things I discovered when I had
responsibility for that area in 2010
was the way that public procurement
was being done almost double the
Ripley froze out small, newer, more
dynamic and innovative suppliers,
and we change that. There were rules
that you have two short three years
accounts, turnover threshold, things
that made it almost impossible for
smaller businesses to bid for and
winning Government business, and so
the big ones, the Giants, had far
too much of it their own way, and
actually too many of them became
that their principal competency was
not doing the work, it was winning
the business. That is not a healthy
position. We did reform that and one
of the things we put in place was
senior, private-sector crown
representatives, we called them, you
had a part-time role, but whose job
it was to be the kind of gatekeeper
with the big strategic suppliers to
Government to ensure this doesn't
Let me go back to Chris
Williamson on the question of
ideology. Is it, in your mind, Chris
Williamson, always the case that
public is good and Private Bag, that
all outsourcing should be stopped
because you are ideological is so
committed to the public sector,
whether or not one is better than
I'm afraid it is a
neoliberal ideology that has been
holding sway over the country for
probably since 1979. And if you
actually talk to most people out in
the country, they agree with us.
Most people don't like the fact that
the private sector is essentially
ripping off the public purse. Let's
remember that the first priority for
these companies is to make a profit.
And they are making billions and
billions of pounds in profit.
Surely, wouldn't it be better to
have these things delivered in-house
and then the dividends which are
dished out to the shareholders would
not be necessary, and that money
could then be reinvested and
improving the services? These
services that we all need.
put that to Francis. If in the end,
the companies are going to go bust
because of the system you have just
described, and they have made
billions in the process stop
described, and they have made
billions in the process stop.
billions in the process stop.
must be obvious what the problem is.
But they did pay themselves money,
even when the finances were looking
precarious and that is what has been
They were not making
billions and billions of profit.
This has to be done right. You have
to manage the contract in the right
way and you have to open it up to
smaller companies and that is the
way to do it. But this idea that
somehow the public sector, because
it doesn't make a profit, is always
better, there is in the public
sector too much aversion to
innovation. There is a bias to
inertia rather than the buyers to
innovation. You do not get progress.
Chris Williamson, what do you say?
Well, Francis is just burying his
head in the sand. And is a stranger
to reality, it seems to me. Of
course, the public sector is
perfectly capable of innovation, but
what he is ignoring is the fact that
billions of pounds and the public
record shows that, having paid out
in dividends to shareholders. That
is a fact. Furthermore, the fat cat
executives at the top of these
organisations are paying themselves
colossal sums, and really
conservatives often wailing the
level of remuneration for local
authority Chief executives, and they
pale into insignificance against the
multi-million pound salary packages
packages that these objectives in
these private outsourcing companies
are receiving. The chief executive
of Capita, for example, the outgoing
chief executive, I think his
remuneration package was just under
£3 million. These are colossal
figures and it is being subsidised
by the public purse.
have you got that the public sector
would run all of these services and
build all of the constructions that
having undertaken by private
companies in the meantime if there
... Well, of
The model that existed right
to this was exactly that, and we
seem to manage perfectly well, if
not better. Indeed, the economic
performance of the country... I can
hear France's scoffing, but the
economic performance of the country
was at least as good if not better.
We are just talking about whether or
not these buildings would have been
made if there hadn't been
It was this idea that
everything was fine before there was
outsourcing is complete nonsense.
Governments have struggled with this
and as the size of the state has
grown and the scope of state
activity has grown, it is essential
to find different ways of doing
things. Otherwise, you find
absolutely no innovation.
beginning of the coalition, there
was a huge amount of noise around
small companies and contracts had to
be given where companies would bring
social value to the community. It
didn't make any difference. If you
look at something like the work
programme, all of the contracts were
taken off social value companies.
What are the facts, then?
give you one example. When I took
over in 2010, 80% of the Government
spent was on national suppliers and
weak in sourced some of that. The
previous Labour Government had done
mass outsourcing. But we also opened
up procurement to smaller social
enterprises, smaller developers and
start ups, though actually by 2015,
you look at the map of suppliers to
the Government and there were lots
literally all over the UK.
you to counterexamples. One of them
is the work programme. No, they
weren't just opened up. They were
divvied out to seven or eight and
this has had a massive impact.
problem that the Government has is
that people will be making these
arguments regardless of whether it
is going well and working or not.
The easiest way to talk down a
public company is to go on
television and attack it. The
problem was... Chris, for example,
was making these arguments even in
the good times. It is an ideological
thing for him. But the problem is
the Government need to start making
elegant defences of this, like
Francis has, because voters are
listening to people like Chris.
listening to people like Chris.
you talk over each other, nobody can
hear. So I will live on is likely to
talk about Theresa May. Can she stay
on as leader, with all of this going
Clearly, she can stay on.
close is a vote of confidence?
have no idea. You would have to ask
Graham Brady, and he certainly won't
At the moment, viewing it
from the outside, as you are, on her
leadership, does you need to be
bolder about what she says on
Actually, I think she's
getting a bad rap on the sprigs of
thing. This idea that the Government
hasn't said what it wants. That
seems to me to be nonsense. It has
said what it once. It wants the
maximum frictionless trading and
maximum access to the single market,
particularly for financial services,
and it doesn't want to have to pay
for it. Doesn't want to have to
accept free movement. It does want
to have its cake, perfectly
So why the in the party?
What is going on is a very public
negotiation and what is going on in
the Conservative Party, completely
understandably, is a bit of the same
thing. People staking positions in
order to try to influence where this
quite corrugated negotiation ends
Has she got a grip of the party
I shouldn't think
anyone could have a grip of the
party at the moment because this is
a very intense time. Whoever was
leading the party at the moment
would have a really difficult time.
I did think it is necessarily -- I
don't think it is necessarily a
problem. What the direct will have
to do is engage very seriously with
the EU negotiators and work out what
are the gives, what is the settling
point, and it won't be a linear
spectrum between hard Brexit and
soft Brexit. There are lots of
different strands, some of them will
be met and the settling point...
Should a Government minister be
accusing the civil service of
I do what was
going on here I barely noticed it
minister be criticising the civil
service in the way Steve Baker do in
the dispatch box?
I frequently got
called up for criticising the civil
service because it is ridiculous to
have this idea that ministers can
never be critical of the civil
service. Of course they can. I don't
know what was going on there. I
think the point Bill Cashmore is
making, that there is in much of the
political and governmental
establishment a deep seated comfort
with us being in the EU and
discomfort with us leaving it, and
that in the sub conscious and
unconscious, possibly makes a
Do you think Theresa May
would be advised to set a departure
date now, saying she was going to
That will be totally out of her.
Of course it is but do you think it
would be wise?
I think you could
argue it both ways and it would
probably be an inconclusive
And on that, Francis
Maude, thank you.
Now, this weekend Jeremy Corbyn
will be speaking at a conference
of Labour local councillors.
But it has been a turbulent
few weeks for the party
in local government,
with a battle over the reselection
between existing councillors
and Momentum-backed candidates.
And that tension came to a head
in one local council -
Haringey - this week.
On Tuesday, the Labour leader
of Haringey Council in North London,
Claire Kober, announced she will be
stepping down in May,
citing "sexism, bullying"
and "undemocratic behaviour"
in personal attacks on her.
She had been embroiled in a public
row with Momentum members
in Haringey over a £2 billion deal
with a private property developer
to build 6,500 new homes.
Labour's National Executive
Committee - which is now controlled
by allies of Jeremy Corbyn -
intervened to put a stop
to the development.
This decision by the ruling body
was met with criticism from several
Labour council leaders
across the country,
who publicly backed Ms Kober.
Now the former Labour leader
of Harlow Council, Jon Clempner,
who resigned last month,
has blamed his decision to stand
down on an active campaign
against his leadership by a Momentum
organiser - he also claimed
he was "called a neo-Nazi"
by someone wearing a Corbyn T-shirt
outside the Labour Party Conference.
This is what Haringey Council leader
Claire Kober had to say
about her decision to step down.
I'm in no doubt that the behaviour
and actions of certain individuals
at certain times meet the test both
sexes, bullying and
-- of both sexism...
And I have to say, if I look
at the NEC's actions last week, this
is the National Executive Committee
of the Labour Party deciding
to debate an issue without having
the courtesy to contact me
beforehand, during or immediately
after the meeting to
understand better the issue
that they wanted to discuss.
Our political correspondent
Iain Watson joins us now.
What is happening at this moment in
As you pointed out, I
think division, deselection is,
denunciations have been dominating
the news in Haringey but what I've
been trying to do is move a little
bit away from that process and look
at some of the policies that might
emerge as the party moves to the
left, towards Momentum, getting
greater influence as expected, after
the council elections when a new
leaders announce. On Sunday, members
are talking about the first age of
the manifesto. It will come as no
surprise that one of the things they
intend to do is scrap that
controversial housing scheme you
mentioned, the public-private
partnership to redevelop a housing
estate, but there are some other
interesting ideas which may be taken
by other councils they move to the
left too. They are talking about
abolishing council tax entirely the
lower income families, extending
free school meals to everyone in
primary schools, setting up a
not-for-profit lettings agency in
competition with the private sector
to offer homes beneath market rent.
Also you have that great with Chris
Williamson and Francis Maude on
outsourcing. In line with John
McDonell's wishes, they would want
to take back everything that has
been outsourced in the borough back
into public ownership and they're
also looking at perhaps a big hike
in pay for workers, as well, which
Salford council has already done.
What is interesting is that there
are no costings attached to these
ideas in the moment and what is
interesting also is that people are
portraying Haringey in a particular
light, I'm picking up from sources
that they are averse to hiking the
council tax by a large amount which
would pay the sum of these things
because of the scrutiny Haringey is
under the moment and they think they
may be effectively tarred with the
brush of tax-raising, rather than
redistribution, so they are
sensitive to some of those issues
there is one caveat when you go
through these policies and that is
that whatever the local grassroots
decide, the existing Labour group
has to sign of that manifesto, that
is the one still run by Claire
Kober, who is standing down, run by
a majority who are not Momentum
backers, and they may simply delete
some of the more radical overseas
that they don't like.
Thank you very
We're joined now by a former Labour
activist in Haringey,
Nora Mulready, who has
resigned her membership
of the party after 20 years,
and Labour MP and Corbyn ally
Chris Williamson is
still with us in Derby.
Listening to some of those ideas
that Ian was talking about, do they
sound like good ideas to you?
think that one of the things that
when you spend time in Haringey you
realise is that at some point, not
Momentum activists are going to come
into contact with reality and that
is going to probably dramatically
change what they are suggesting can
happen. And I mean in terms of
Why did you resign your
Er... A lot of different
issues. I think within the Labour
Party now there are two main things
going on - one is a battle for the
kind of political soul of the Labour
Party, and for my senses it is
between the people who are kind of
pragmatic left-wing people, like
Claire Kober and the Labour
councillors who are prepared to use
any tools available to try and
poverty while people, and people
like Chris, for example, who are...
Who plays a kind of ideological
commitment to an antipathy to the
private sector and to state delivery
of everything, above the needs of
people. So that's the politics, but
the other side of it, which, again,
Clare talked about, is the sheer
brutality of the discourse within
the Labour Party now, emanating from
Momentum. The fact is, if you stand
up to Momentum in Haringey and...
I've been contacted by people from
all over the country who have
experienced this, what is thrown at
you is abhorrent.
acceptable, Chris Williamson?
is not my experience and what we
have is a Labour Party which is a
mass movement now. The introduction
to this item talked about some of
the ideas that the members in
Haringey are looking at and that is
a fantastic exercise in democracy
and we should be celebrating that,
the fact that we are bringing people
into the party to discuss ideas and
hopefully move forward in a
consensus after a debate and
discussion has taken place. Surely
we should be celebrating that. I
need to correct you on one thing,
Jo, because you said the NEC had
intervened to stop the HDD from
going forward it but is not the
case. The National Executive
Committee of the Labour Party
debated about the NEC hasn't got the
power to stop it, they merely asked
the Labour group to pause and
consult on it.
I take your... The
question I ask you is about the
response of the brutality of the
discourse. Is it acceptable that
Claire Kober resigned and that Nora
Mulready has resigned her membership
because of claims of bullying and
sexism that they have personally
felt within the party?
If they felt
that, they need to report it and the
party will always investigate any
issues of concern about those sorts
of things but, as I say, it is
certainly not my experience and the
party now is a huge organisation. It
has more members than every other
political party put together. It is
very much reaching out to the wider
general public and people are
genuinely enthused and it's not
about being extremists. The Labour
Party is the mainstream. What the
Labour Party is now advocating is
what the vast majority of the people
want in this country. In all of the
opinion polls, they agree with us.
It is not extremism, it is the
That is correct in terms
of the swell of the membership, the
party is the biggest party and is
reaching out to the public in
reaching out to the public in a way
not seen before. To you accept what
Chris Williamson says?
absolutely not, I'm sorry, Chris. To
give you some examples, Claire Kober
was repeatedly called an ethnic
cleanser and social cleanser as a
result of wanted to regenerate one
of the most deprived communities in
the borough. Not a single person was
going to be moved off that estate.
Every of them was promised the right
to the rights to have a property as
part of the regeneration. Sorry,
every council tenant had been
offered that. But she was routinely
accused of social cleansing and even
ethnic cleansing by members of the
Labour Party, so in terms of the
bullying it is not a case of simply
coming up to be blinded timidity on
them in that sense. The actual
brutality that language was
disgusting and it was never ever
called out by anyone within the
I'm going to come to you,
Zoe, in a second. Should it be
called out, Chris Williamson? Are
you shocked to hear that sort of
allegation levelled within the
Nora is making those
allegations right now and if people
have got concerns and evidence...
But does that concern you, that
Claire Kober was called a social
cleanser and an ethnic cleanser by
people with the Labour Party?
Publicly, they have written
Let him answer., Chris,
what do you say?
Obviously, I think
people need to moderate their
language and begin a comradely way
to people. But this isn't a fringe
activity or a handful of extremists
who are pushing this agenda. The
proposition that was being put
forward by the Labour group on
Haringey was opposed by the local
MPs, it was overwhelmingly rejected
by the vast majority of people, as I
understand it, living in Haringey,
and that's why this exercise in
democracy has taken place in
Haringey. It should be celebrated.
The criticism is about the way the
discourse has been handled. Do you
think there should be an
investigation? Your colleague the
shadow Brexit minister Jenny Chapman
said two days ago that there should
be in inquiry into the allegations
that Claire Kober has made in the
weight she was bullied.
needs to make those allegations to
She has, but should there be
investigation? Jenny Chapman said
there should be did
The NEC will
have to review that and see if there
is any merit in further
Is that a yes or a
note in your support for an inquiry?
I've not seen the evidence, all I've
said as he is it.
This is the
Saying look at the
evidence and allow the people who
are charged with allsorts of
investigations. It is not helpful
for people like me to be
pontificating on the sidelines.
you on the sidelines? Let me bring
Zoe in. Rhead I want to play Relate
for a second because I think part of
the problem is that it has been
taken as an interparty battle of
such proportions that one side of
the party has to be wrong in order
for the other to survive.
situation in Haringey, replicated in
London boroughs across London, is
that PF ideals have not delivered
the things that they promised to
residents and residents do feel
incredibly angry and this idea that
councils can't afford to pay care
workers properly, they can't afford
to do this, this is the new reality,
we're basically dealing with a
Conservative austerity programme and
But should it have
ended with the leader of the council
Wait, wait. The people
are quite angry and it is not
Momentum. It is an actual housing
group. Of course they're going to be
angry because there is a huge
Isn't this democracy in
It is not even the Labour
Party. Half of them are Greens.
found Chris Preddie chilling there
because he is completely deadpan
damn the camera. He is hearing the
allegations. -- I found Chris pretty
chilling. He is just saying,
reported to the NEC. We all know the
NEC has just been taken over by and
Momentum supporters and they run the
complaints service. The most
dangerous thing for the Labour Party
Let him finish the
The problem for the Labour
Party is that Jeremy Corbyn seems
this nice, bearded, fluffy guy who
are sized animals, doesn't eat meat
and doesn't drink and it is all very
nice but on the ground, as soon as
his supporters get any sniff of
power, it ends up with situations
I need to let Chris
Williamson respond. Briefly, we are
running out of time.
Of course. That
is a ludicrous proposition, to
suggest that the Labour Party is
being taken over by Momentum. It is
an exercise in democracy. People put
themselves up for election and were
overwhelmingly returned by the
Labour Party membership. Let's
While you are
celebrating, yes or no, do you
regret that people like Nora had
left the party and that Claire Kober
Well, the Labour Party
is a Broadchurch.
I said yes or no,
do you regret it?
I would sooner
people stay in the party and work
together to beat the Conservatives.
We are going to have to leave it
there. Nora and Chris, thank you
Now, who's your political hero?
We've all got someone we admire -
and politicians are no exception.
Elizabeth Glinka sat down
with former Conservative Party
leader William Hague to talk
about his favourite
William Hague, who is
your political hero?
My hero is William Pitt the Younger,
the youngest Prime Minister ever
in the history of this country,
24 years old, written
off at the time as just
a mince pie Prime Minister,
a Prime Minister for
Christmas and then out,
and he served 19 years.
When did you first come across him?
Was it at school?
I first came across him
from Margaret Thatcher,
would you believe?
When I had my own fit
of youthful endeavour
in politics as a 16-year-old...
It is all right for some of you.
Half of you won't be
here in 30 or 40 years' time.
I was hauled off to see
Margaret Thatcher and she said
to the assembled press,
"We might be standing
here with another William Pitt,"
so I thought, "I'd better go
and find out about
this William Pitt."
Well, as I did over the following 20
years, I became a great admirer.
Pitt the Younger, so styled
because his father, another William,
had also been Prime Minister.
He was a prodigy.
He graduated from Cambridge at 17
and became an MP four
years later, in 1781.
A reformer, he considered himself
not a Tory but an independent.
He seems to me to be
an undervalued figure in history
and his name would come up
in an episode of Blackadder.
Mr Pitt is the Prime Minister, sir.
Oh, go on!
Young snotty here?
Actually, he was this
towering figure who stood
alone against Napoleon.
He plotted naval strategy
with Nelson, he dealt
with the most extraordinary
range of circumstances.
Pitt took over as Britain
was rocked by the loss
of its American colonies.
With the national debt
spiraling, Honest Billy set
about steadying the ship.
He would later introduce income tax
and the first paper money.
This was much mocked at the time,
that just like they said how
Augustus had found Rome of brick
and left it marble, so he had found
England made of gold
and left it made of paper.
His keeping the country
creditworthy, the inexhaustible
credit of the City of London
and Britain at that time,
that allowed it to overcome
Napoleon in the end,
because the French could hardly ever
run out of men and Britain
could hardly ever run out of money.
And that rivalry with the French
emperor would come to
define his premiership.
Pitt was the great figure
in the world, opposing Napoleon,
and you can see the illustrations
of the time of Pitt and Napoleon
carving the world between them.
Despite his success, Pitt
was famously aloof and even shy.
He never married and his devotion
to his country consumed his life.
His drinking contributing
to his death at just 46.
Becoming so powerful so early
in life actually stunted his growth
as a human being in other ways.
You don't make new friends
or develop new interests if you are
at the heart of government.
And you talk about how his coming
to power at such a young age
may have affected his
persona, his personality.
You were party leader
very young, mid-30s.
Did that affect how you portrayed
yourself in the public sphere?
All of us who are in those
situations experience a bit
of what William Pitt did.
Most of us have periods where we go
out of office and we see
life in a different way
and when the world looks rather
monochrome as a senior politician,
it all gets its colour again
when you leave politics.
People described him as sort
of buttoned up and stoic.
Is that something that
resonated with you?
Well, hopefully I'm not like that.
Something that I do identify
with is that he really
gave full vent to his
personality in Parliament.
And this is an age when the House of
Commons had in it Charles James Fox,
Richard Brinsley Sheridan,
Edmund Burke, William Wilberforce.
This is an age that makes
today's parliament look
pedestrian in the extreme.
I suspect I would have been happier
in the 18th-century parliament -
although much less likely to be
in it, of course - than in the late
20th century Parliament.
And is it that steadiness, then,
that you really admire?
Is that the core of it?
Yes, I do.
He is the pilot who
weathered the storm.
He said he would prefer to die
at his post rather than desert it -
not something we often associate
with political leaders.
And he did, indeed, die at his post.
William Hague, thank you very much.
William Hague there on his political
hero, Pitt the Younger. Other films
in the series are available on the
Earlier this week Donald Trump
gave his State of the Union address
to Congress, where he hailed
the "new American moment"
and struck a conciliatory tone
towards the Democrats, calling
for them to work together.
The address is an annual speech
where the President gets to set
out his agenda for the next year
and talk about what
he's achieved so far.
Here's a flavour of what he said.
Tonight, I call upon all of us
to set aside our differences,
to seek out common ground
and to summon the unity we need
to deliver for the people.
This is really a kid.
These are the people
we were elected to serve.
And just as I promised
the American people from this
podium 11 months ago,
we enacted the biggest tax cuts
and reforms in American history.
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
We repealed the core
of the disastrous Obamacare.
The individual mandate is now gone.
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
And we're joined now by former
Conservative MP and Trump
What a catchy title. Welcome. Did
you welcome the more conciliatory
tone in his address?
I paid quite
literally no attention to it.
the address at all?
Not really, no.
I know what is coming down in the
investigation. At the time
investigation. At the time this
year, he got half a day's news cycle
like he is getting now. Then the
general Flynn news cycle. Today, the
news has already moved on to the
giant fighter Donald Trump is having
with the FBI.
You have already
tweeted in response to Donald
Trump's tweet. The top leadership of
the FBI and the Justice Department
have politicised the sacred
investigative process in favour of
Democrats and against Republicans-
something that would have been
unbeatable just a short time ago.
Rank and file are great people.
Mueller, Republican. He will have a
really hard time making this case.
And of course criminals don't like
cops. That is what you have got
there. He can to eat all day long.
Nothing is going to change. Do you
think it is all coming down the
track to Donald Trump?
I don't know.
I've been making predictions and may
never come true. I think this does
have some traction. I actually did
quite interesting and nuanced speech
about how America first doesn't
necessarily mean America alone. But
he is always unable to keep it up
But he did extend a hand
to the Democrats. He spoke of a tide
of optimism. It is an improvement if
you're looking at it from your
perspective, Louise, in terms of the
But at some point, he is
going to come up against the
investigation and up against into
stations which will hold on to some
sort of account. -- up against
The difference with
the speeches and the improper to
question session and the speeches is
that somebody else writes the
Funnily enough, that's not
the biggest revelation to make an
They're not authentic. The
What about his core
base? He has delivered to that core
The tax plan has been
delivered. And people are finding
out it's not as bad as all that,
which is why some moderate
Republicans I think about it for
that tax plan. I'm completely
uninterested in politics because we
are in the middle of Watergate and
that is what I am completely focus
But he has the core behind him.
But does he really? They have him
rated at a gigantic high but he got
the lowest approval ratings or any
president since polling began for
his first year.
Sure, but he's not
going to care about that
particularly at the moment. They
will point to in the White House 2.4
million jobs, people will have more
money in their pockets, you talked
about the tax cuts, growth is up.
It's the economy, stupid.
aren't his ratings higher? When you
come to an all-time high of only
42%, that's just not very good.
That's what this programme is about.
You have only just realised then
that is the end of the show.
the same thing with Brexit and David
Cameron said it so well, it's not
what everyone would have chosen, but
actually it hasn't been as bad as
everyone would have predicted it to
be. Really, has it?
You thought it
was going to be better, did you?
only thing I am slightly surprised
about is that it has taken this
long. I think Orange will be the new
orange. You said on Twitter, I am
enjoying this thoroughly. Good
things are about to happen. Rats
bared their fangs because they're in
a corner. Get your champagne and
popcorn ready. What things are going
Well, we will see what
happens after the state of the
union. The real author of this memo
suddenly announced that he is going
to step down. Oh, what a surprise!
He was undoubtably forced into that,
and I think what you see here is the
Justice Department is not taking any
rubbish from him over this
ridiculous attempt at a smear.
that were getting the champagne and
No, I think the Mueller
interview with Trump will be worth
It is not a done deal, is it?
Exactly as you said about cornered
rats showing their teeth. If he goes
into a situation which it had
blasted his way out of, then I think
we will start seeing the sort of
things we are also scared about
anti-Cameroonian it is not as bad as
it looked -- and the quote from
David Cameron it is not as bad as it
looked like not be true.
Is it as it
begins to spill into the conspiracy
theory arena and then you start to
lose people, and then they don't
trust what you are saying.
don't care about that because what I
am reporting is true. Conspiracy is
not a theory. Mueller already has
three convictions from people who
have admitted it and only Paul
Manafort is denying it. Just
yesterday, Rick Gates decided to
flip and cooperate with prosecutors.
Watergate was a lot of nothing until
all of a sudden there were tens of
indictments handed out in a single
day and this is what you will find
out -- this time too.
Do you think
Theresa May can last the course of
Yes. I hadn't
Yes. I hadn't played paid
much attention but she always seems
to be going out and then doesn't.
She is a steady hand. And as all the
chaos that is going on, I struggle
to think they would get to replace,
so I think she will fine.
There's just time before we go
to find out the answer to our quiz.
The question was ...
What nickname have the Chinese
given Theresa May?
A - Mummy May?
B - Granny May?
C - Auntie May?
Or D - Sister May?
So, Harry and Zoe,
what's the correct answer?
It's Auntie May!
That's all for today.
Thanks to my guests.
The one o'clock news is starting
over on BBC One now.
Sarah Smith will be back
on Sunday on BBC One at 11
with the Sunday Politics.
And I'll be back here
on BBC Two on Monday at midday
with more Daily Politics.