26/02/2018 Daily Politics


26/02/2018

Jo Coburn presents the latest political news with guests Lisa Nandy and Chris Skidmore, as Jeremy Corbyn lays out Labour's Brexit position in a speech in Coventry.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to

the Daily Politics.

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Jeremy Corbyn kicks off a big week

for Brexit with his speech

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on life after we leave -

he's backing a permanent

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customs union with the EU and he's

inviting Conservative rebels to join

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him in defeating the government.

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With temperatures falling

across the UK, the government claims

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it will protect 11 million customers

from "rip off" energy bills.

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We'll look at the details.

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Sheep - plain and simple, these days

- have become industrialised.

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They've become mere commodities, no

longer treated as sentient beings -

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animals that can feel pain.

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As MPs prepare to debate ending

live animal exports,

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the broadcaster Selina Scott says

it's time to act.

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And there's a big campaign to cut

the national voting age to 16 -

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we'll be looking at the tongue

in cheek call for it

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to go as low as 12.

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All that in the next hour

and with us for the whole

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of the programme today are two MPs

sheltering from the snow

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and the wind in our studio

here at Westminster where we've got

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the heating turned up.

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It's Labour's Lisa Nandy and for

the Conservatives, Chris Skidmore.

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Welcome to both of you.

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So it's going to be a huge week

for Brexit, beginning

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with Jeremy Corbyn's speech this

morning and ending with a speech

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by the Prime Minister.

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Plenty more of that in the show

today, but first...

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The government should get ten out

of ten for timing at least.

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Because just as the UK gets a blast

of Siberian weather a new bill

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to limit the cost of some energy

bills is being introduced

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into Parliament.

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It's been calculated that domestic

customers using the big six energy

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companies pay £1.4 billion more

on average than they would

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in a truly competitive market.

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The difference between cheapest

available tariff and the average

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Standard Variable Tariff

is estimated to be around £300.

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So the new law would mean Ofgem,

the energy regulatior,

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would set a cap on standard default

tariffs and this would come

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into effect by next winter

and would last until 2020.

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It could then be extended

every year until 2023.

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As you can imagine not

everyone is happy.

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Energy UK, which represents

the energy providers,

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warned "it's vital the cap doesn't

halt the growth of competition".

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Let's have a listen to the energy

minister Claire Perry talking

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about the plan earlier today.

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What you're doing is saying, as

we've seen in other industries about

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banking, all those great deals that

are out there for other customers,

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come and switch to us, save on

average £300 a year, those sorts of

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deals should be available to the

most loyal customers. Those who

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can't switch or won't switch.

Switching is a great thing. We now

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have about 20% of households out

there looking for the best deals.

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I've switched twice, it does save

money. We know many people still

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don't know about switching and lots

of steps are being taken to make

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sure that improves, but equally some

people never want to switch and why

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should those customers be paying

these unfair tariffs? Those are the

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people who will benefit most from

this protection.

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Centrica, which owns British Gas,

announced they will lose 4000 jobs

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by 2020, partly down to your

proposed price cap. These plans

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could damage the industry, couldn't

they?

I think having Ofgem set the

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level of the cap is very important

here. This is a state control.

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Having a regulator responsibly

taking decisions that will provide

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that balance.

You've asked them to

do that to distance herself from

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making decisions. Gallup the

business and energy select committee

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has looked at it and said, if

for

too long the big six have argued

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there will be consequences. We need

to be on the side of the consumer.

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The Conservative Party as the party

of the little man and we need to

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make sure we have the best value for

money.

You want to look after the

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consumer, but the

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consumer, but the company uSwitch

has said it is fraught with

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unintended consequences and that the

cap could undermine the very

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competition you want to see and push

up prices in the longer term and

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harm the consumer. The bill has gone

through pre-legislative scrutiny. We

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bought it through as a draft Bill to

see how we can make improvements.

We

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will put it out to consultation. We

will see it pass through Parliament

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as a bill and it shows the

government does have a domestic

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policy programme in place and we

need to make sure we take the bill

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through that there are concerns that

we welcome. This is about value for

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money. B. On the standard variable

tariff, many people are locked in

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and it could save them several

hundred pounds per year.

Do you

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support it? This was the suggestion

that Ed Miliband, the former Labour

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leader, proposed. It will help

people on that standard variable

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tariff.

It was quite nice seeing how

far the Tory party has gone since

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they told us we were dangerous

communists. To be honest, I think

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it's a bit sad that you can't say,

we have a situation in this country

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where people are being absolutely

ripped off and we think that the

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state ought to do something about it

and be proud of that. This is an

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important temporary fixed to the

energy market and I very much

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supported. It doesn't deal with the

bigger problems in the energy

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market. One of the biggest problems

as you almost highlighted is that

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you have a handful of companies who

want just selling energy to

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consumers, they're generating and

selling energy to themselves and

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that's where the big profit margins

come. Centrica and British Gas are a

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good example. British Gas five a lot

of gas from its parent company,

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Centrica, which is where the big

profit margins come. That is a sort

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of thing the government needs to

take action on.

Because that

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balance. We don't want to criticise

companies. There are thousands of

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people who work in his company is,

we are not anti-big business.

Are

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consumers being ripped off or not

with yellow --?

Some consumers don't

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have the time to switch so we need a

portfolio of options for consumers.

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Penalised for loyalty. We shouldn't

allow a market to persist in which

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customers are penalised for being

loyal.

Do you accept one of the

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problems with the freeze is that the

price of wholesale energy, when it

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came down, people would be paint

over and above the odds at the time

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if Ed Miliband had pushed it

through.

That was a

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mischaracterisation of the Labour

policy and it was always intended to

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be a cap that bloated with the price

of wholesale rather than being

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static. I agree that that would have

been a valid criticism if that were

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policy. This is a temporary measure

which has had to come about because

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of a very long period of time the

energy companies have been warned,

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not just by political parties, but

by the independent watchdog, CMA,

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that they are ripping off customers

and they haven't done anything about

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it.

You're trying to limit

competition which isn't very

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conservative.

It's the balance

between ensuring we have the best

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value and what we are against in the

Conservative Party is corporatism.

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We leave in ensuring competition but

corporatism is not competition.

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Unlike the Labour position where it

was a freeze, people would be able

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to bid under this and it's being

able to create that dynamic where

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people have the best value.

In the

meantime, we'll turn the heating up

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for this week!

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Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has been

making his big speech

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on Brexit this morning,

and he was keen to try to set out

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some clear red water

between his position and that

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of the government.

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While the Prime Minister has

insisted the UK will leave

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the customs union, allowing it

to negotiate its own post-Brexit

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trade deals, Mr Corbyn has confirmed

that Labour will in fact back

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a customs union with the EU.

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The Labour leader also

said his party would,

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if it had the opportunity,

"negotiate a new and

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strong relationship

with the single market" too.

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Some Brexit-backing Labour MPs have

warned that the party risks

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betraying those who voted to take

back control of immigration

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and laws, although the speech may

have pleased the many more Labour

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MPs who support a closer

relationship with the EU.

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Let's have a listen

to Mr Corbyn speaking earlier.

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We've long argued that

a customs union is a viable

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option for the final deal,

so Labour would seek to negotiate

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a new, comprehensive UK/EU customs

union to ensure there are no tariffs

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with Europe and to help avoid any

need whatsoever for a hard border

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in Northern Ireland.

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Labour would not countenance a deal

that left Britain a passive

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recipient of rules decided elsewhere

by others that would mean ending up

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as a mere rule taker.

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The European Union is not the root

of all our problems and leaving it

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will not solve all our problems.

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Likewise, the EU is not the source

of all enlightenment and leaving it

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does not inevitably spell doom.

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There'll be some who'll tell

you Brexit is a disaster for this

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country and some will tell you that

Brexit will create a land

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of milk and honey.

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The truth is more down to earth

and it's in our hands.

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Brexit is what we make

of it, together.

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The priorities and choices

we make in negotiations.

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That was Jeremy Corbyn

speaking a little earlier,

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and joining us now from Coventry

is the Shadow Business Secretary

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Rebecca Long-Bailey.

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Welcome to Daily Politics. Labour

says Britain will need a bespoke

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relationship of its own that you

seek to negotiate protections,

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clarifications or exemptions were

necessary. In order to deliver on

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your ambitious economic programme.

So to sum up, you want all the good

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bit of the single market and none of

the allegedly bad bits, which I

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think the EU calls cherry picking

and they have rejected.

No, there

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are certain provisions we know

undermine our workers' rights. The

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posted workers directives, it is not

in the interest of workers here in

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Britain and we would want to seek

that exception. A number of EU

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countries are currently pressing for

it to be removed. If it isn't, we

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will be pushing ahead with it.

Ultimately the message that Jeremy

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put forward is that we have domestic

economic problems, deep structural

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problems within our economy that

need to be addressed. We've had

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significant underinvestment in

particular regions over the last

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seven years and people are

increasingly making their voice

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heard that they're not happy with

this economic model. We can put in

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place domestic interventions and we

said we will do that. We are

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undertaking the most radical and

robust industrial programme that's

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been seen in a generation in terms

of investing in our research and

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development, skills, infrastructure.

That will only work if we have a

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solid relationship with the EU that

supports and complements our

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industrial strategy on our economic

programme going forward.

What

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evidence do you have that the EU

would agree to all of that? This

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really is having your cake and

eating it. We want to maintain the

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benefits we have within the customs

union. We want to have our cake and

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eat it, as do most parties in

Westminster. Where is the evidence

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the EU would agree to that whole

long list of the domestic policies

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you want to enact while still

retaining all the benefits of the

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customs union and single market?

We've been clear from the start that

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people didn't vote to leave the

European Union in order to have

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worse terms and conditions, to have

lower rates of pay. We were always

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good buy for Brexit that puts our

economy, jobs and businesses best

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and we set out to do that. We know

we're in a strong negotiating

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position with the EU. We are one of

their strongest bodies, with a sixth

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richest economy in the world. Why

would they not want to negotiate a

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bespoke deal with us in the same way

they did with countries around

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Europe?

Do you think the government

has an equally strong hand went

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negotiating its position on the

basis that you just outlined?

The

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government doesn't have a strong

position at all, they can't decide

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what they're doing from one week to

the next. In terms of the transition

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period, they can't agree whether

we'll have existing terms or if

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we're going to negotiate a

transition period. We'd been quite

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clear today. In relation to the

transition period we'll observe the

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current terms and conditions of the

customs union and the single market

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so we are not pushing businesses and

workers off a cliff edge and not

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having to undertake a new set of

rules and regulations to then do it

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again once the final deal is

reached. We want to provide

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certainty and we know that is not

what this government is doing at the

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moment.

You still haven't been able

to tell us...

Long-term investment

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decisions.

You haven't been able to

tell us why your position would be

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any stronger than that of the

government. There was a plant that

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came out of the meeting that then

Donald Tusk from the European Union

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Council rejected as cherry picking.

You're saying that by remaining part

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of a cousin union, our trade policy

will be dictated by the EU 27.

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Sorry, I didn't hear that.

Do you

accept our trade policy will be

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dictated by the EU 27 if the UK is

part of a customs union?

Know, we've

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been very clear on that today. What

we're seeking to achieve is to

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become part of a customs union with

the EU. That will be dependent on

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there being a clear forum in which

Britain has a very strong position

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in agreeing to, or amending, any

trade deals itself.

What is your

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evidence the EU would sign up? There

is no evidence the EU would sign up

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to those exemptions, clarifications

and protections you talk about.

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Where in a very strong position for

the reasons as we set out earlier.

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We are one of the biggest economies

in the world. The EU wants a

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positive relationship with us and we

want one with them. We know we're

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only going to work as an economy and

the European economy as a whole if

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we forge that strong relationship

together.

But you've just said that

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the British government hasn't got a

clear direction, although its stated

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what it wants to do in terms of

leaving the customs union.

They

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can't decide...

But they said they

want to leave the customs union and

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the single market, which is pretty

clear. And even some of the things

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they would like to see done in a

bespoke deal have been rejected by

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the EU. I say again, you say you are

in a strong position but there's no

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evidence for that. Why do you think

you can have the same relationship

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as Britain currently has now but

somehow give the UK a voice that is

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more influential than each of the EU

27? That we'd be able to influence

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EU trade policy more than them?

We're taking a reasonable and

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pragmatic view of our future

relationship with the EU. The

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government has not been reasonable

and pragmatic. They say they want to

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have frictionless trade. They say

they don't want a hard border in

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Northern Ireland and yet they

reduce... Refused to accept we must

0:15:450:15:48

have some form of customs union with

the European Union. We realise we

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can't have that frictionless trade

without some form of customs union

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and that's what we're taking to the

negotiating table. We also want to

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be perfectly clear that were not

going to beat a passive recipient in

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that arrangement. We want there to

be a forum, a clear forum where

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Britain has the opportunity to argue

and fight for its future trade deals

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on appropriate terms that are in the

benefit of our own economic

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interests.

Isn't this just the first

step of you ratting? Ratting on all

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those Labour leaders. They voted to

take back control of the money,

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borders and laws. You'd sell them

down the river to get Jeremy Corbyn

0:16:230:16:26

into Downing Street.

No. This is

about taking back control and

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ensuring we have full economic

control. To do that is...

You can't

0:16:300:16:34

live you're part of a customs union.

No, we have to make sure we have a

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positive relationship with the EU in

order to do that. We can't sell out

0:16:390:16:42

our industrial base. We can't make

people worse off than they are now

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on leaving the European Union and we

have defined a relationship that

0:16:450:16:49

satisfies our guys I do leave the EU

but also make sure we can maintain

0:16:490:16:55

those positive trading relationships

and other relationships within the

0:16:550:16:58

European Union. That's what we've

set out today.

Will you back and a

0:16:580:17:03

Subaru's amendment to enable the UK

to stay in the customs union and

0:17:030:17:06

potentially defeat the government?

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We will take that decision

throughout the course of the week.

0:17:120:17:15

It will be interesting to see what

interventions they make today. They

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are at war over the customs union

and I would not be surprised to see

0:17:200:17:23

some movement on that.

On

immigration Jeremy Corbyn said

0:17:230:17:28

Labour would design a policy around

the need of the economy based on

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their rules and reasonable

management of migration and make no

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apologies for putting those aims

before voters on targets. Are you

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committed to ending freedom of

movement?

It will end, that is a

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fact, when we leave the European

Union. We have to have a fair and

0:17:450:17:50

reasonable system in place. It has

to address our economic needs and

0:17:500:17:55

fill a skills gap and shortages. CBI

and the British Chambers of commerce

0:17:550:18:00

are calling for a clear guidelines

to make sure we can make sure that

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industry gets the skills we need. We

have to address an underlying issue

0:18:040:18:08

we have in Britain, which is chronic

underinvestment in our own

0:18:080:18:12

home-grown skills and talent. 1.15

billion was pulled from the budget

0:18:120:18:18

in recent years. We have to make

sure the scaling of people living in

0:18:180:18:22

Britain is still

0:18:220:18:28

Britain is still addressing the

issue so we still have a pool of

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talent in our industry.

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talent in our industry.

0:18:350:18:36

We're joined now by the UKIP MEP

and of course prominent Brexit

0:18:360:18:39

campaigner Nigel Farage.

0:18:390:18:41

Is Jeremy Corbyn's speech a game

changer?

Governments do not

0:18:410:18:49

negotiate trade deals. The European

Commission negotiates trade deal. If

0:18:490:18:53

you are part of a customs union, you

will not be involved in that. They

0:18:530:18:56

are giving up on that. They are

saying, thank you very much, that is

0:18:560:19:01

great, we are happy with this. You

now need to go further on the single

0:19:010:19:06

market. The next speech down the

road will be that we are linked to a

0:19:060:19:12

single market but not the single

market. The biggest clue of the lot

0:19:120:19:16

was yesterday on the BBC when Keir

Starmer said we would have to have a

0:19:160:19:21

new treaty. We get rid of the

current treaty, we have another

0:19:210:19:25

treaty, and Labour voters were asked

are we really leaving?

Would you

0:19:250:19:28

like to see Labour commits to

remaining a member of the single

0:19:280:19:33

market?

Broadly speaking we are in

the right place in the country.

What

0:19:330:19:38

is the answer to that question?

That

is the answer. The position Jeromy

0:19:380:19:43

set out an hour ago was building on

the commitment that Keir Starmer

0:19:430:19:48

made, access to the single market

rather than membership of the single

0:19:480:19:53

market.

We can all have access.

It

gives you flexibility to be able to

0:19:530:20:00

negotiate specific terms. For me the

importance of all of this that is

0:20:000:20:04

being lost in the bluster and hot

air is that Labour does now have a

0:20:040:20:10

very clear position, which is that

we see our future as being a high

0:20:100:20:14

wage, high standard economy that

links as very closely to those

0:20:140:20:18

standards that operate across the

European Union.

Britain would be a

0:20:180:20:24

rule taker and that is where you

would be selling levers down the

0:20:240:20:27

line?

No, that is part of the

negotiation. The difficulty for

0:20:270:20:33

Britain is there is not agreement in

the Tory party, even within the

0:20:330:20:36

government. This is a choice, do we

want to peg ourselves closely to

0:20:360:20:42

countries like the US and China and

trade on those terms which will push

0:20:420:20:46

down wages in constituencies like

mine.

It will not push wages down,

0:20:460:20:51

it will open the door to

immigration.

I welcome to

0:20:510:20:55

immigration in a moment. What do you

say to that? Are you confident you

0:20:550:20:59

will still be able to get Parliament

to endorse leaving the single market

0:20:590:21:02

and the customs union?

First of all,

this is about taking back control.

0:21:020:21:08

People voted in June 2016 to have

control over their money, their laws

0:21:080:21:14

and their borders. Two thirds of

Labour constituents voted to leave.

0:21:140:21:18

They will be outraged if they feel

our future training policy is set by

0:21:180:21:22

the EU. The whole point of a customs

union means it will exclude the

0:21:220:21:27

ability for Britain to sign

independently to other trade

0:21:270:21:32

nations. When people realise the

customs union will lead to this,

0:21:320:21:36

there will be serious consequences

to the Labour Party.

Your party got

0:21:360:21:41

just under 600,000 votes in the last

election, against 17.4 million

0:21:410:21:46

people who voted to leave, as well

as others who voted to remain. Why

0:21:460:21:50

do you still get to defy what a

proper Brexit looks like?

The party

0:21:500:21:55

got fewer votes because the public

believed parties like Labour, the

0:21:550:22:00

Brexit they voted for, was going to

happen. Now we are seeing a

0:22:000:22:05

different picture. There were four

million-plus Labour voters who voted

0:22:050:22:08

for Jeremy Corbyn who genuinely want

immigration reduced significantly

0:22:080:22:14

and want us to leave the single

market, the customs union and to be

0:22:140:22:20

an independent country. So this is a

sell-out by any measure.

You always

0:22:200:22:24

said Jeremy Corbyn was a Brexiteer.

Why wouldn't people trust him to

0:22:240:22:29

deliver the sort of Brexit that

would protect jobs and the economy

0:22:290:22:33

as he has dated?

If you continue

with free movement... He wants to be

0:22:330:22:38

a citizen of the world. He said we

would not scapegoat anybody. There

0:22:380:22:43

were so many references there. He

also said Labour's priority will be

0:22:430:22:49

business commitments, not arbitrary

migration numbers. We will continue

0:22:490:22:56

with the low paid jobs and that is

what Labour has produced.

This is

0:22:560:23:01

absolute nonsense. If it was as true

as you say that you somehow

0:23:010:23:05

magically know exactly why every

single leave voter in this country

0:23:050:23:09

voted to leave and the specific

legal mechanisms that they want to

0:23:090:23:13

see in place afterwards, why did

your vote collapse in constituencies

0:23:130:23:16

like mine in 2017? We stood on a

very clear manifesto...

Leave the

0:23:160:23:22

single market.

We did not, we stood

on a very clear commitment that said

0:23:220:23:28

that we wanted to retain the

benefits of the single market. We

0:23:280:23:32

wanted access to the single market.

We wanted to avoid a hard border

0:23:320:23:37

with Northern Ireland.

We welcome

onto the hard border. Let's talk

0:23:370:23:43

about immigration. What do you

understand by Rebecca Long Bailey

0:23:430:23:46

and what was said in the Labour

manifesto that there will be an end

0:23:460:23:51

to freedom of movement which is then

followed by a fairer system of

0:23:510:23:55

managed by Gration according to

Jeremy Corbyn?

I am not part of the

0:23:550:23:59

internal discussion.

What does it

mean to you?

What I imagine it is

0:23:590:24:05

leading to, whether it is Tories

negotiating it or Labour, is

0:24:050:24:08

probably a system that looks like

work permits and looking at the

0:24:080:24:12

requirements to bring in non-skilled

labour and skilled labour. Would the

0:24:120:24:19

numbers go down? That is a red

herring because if you start saying

0:24:190:24:23

we will set an arbitrary target for

numbers, then you are not looking at

0:24:230:24:26

the interests of the economy.

In

terms of knowing what people wanted

0:24:260:24:31

about leaving the European Union,

are you saying there will be tens of

0:24:310:24:35

thousands of disappointed Labour

voters who will be disappointed if

0:24:350:24:40

we're not leaving the customs union?

Millions. They will be very

0:24:400:24:45

disappointed. If Theresa May was

able right now to grab the

0:24:450:24:48

immigration agenda, I think she

could do massive damage to Labour in

0:24:480:24:53

the north. I am not sure she will do

it, but everybody was clear we were

0:24:530:24:57

voting to leave the institutions of

the European Union and run our own

0:24:570:25:01

lives. Nobody voted lower wages.

They will get higher wages if we

0:25:010:25:07

control immigration. If we go global

we could be a richer country. What

0:25:070:25:11

you have done today is you have

stopped us going global by staying

0:25:110:25:14

part of a customs union.

You say it

will be a negotiation but it does

0:25:140:25:20

mean on paper that Britain would

remain a rule taker if we are part

0:25:200:25:24

of a customs union. There would not

be the ability to negotiate

0:25:240:25:28

free-trade agreements in the way

people envisaged. That is going back

0:25:280:25:32

on what was promised in the

referendum.

There would be

0:25:320:25:36

restrictions on the way in which we

could negotiate. But it would not

0:25:360:25:40

prevent us from negotiation.

On the

basis of being friendly it is not

0:25:400:25:46

evidence saying that the EU would

give you what you want.

What it

0:25:460:25:49

would entail, what Keir Starmer was

honest about yesterday, is we would

0:25:490:25:55

have to work closely with other

European countries in order to

0:25:550:26:00

negotiate free-trade agreement.

Sorry, Nigel you have had a lot to

0:26:000:26:03

say about this.

Let her finish.

Nigel. You are not telling the

0:26:030:26:08

truth.

The European Commission

negotiates...

You have had a lot to

0:26:080:26:14

say. Not one word is true. The truth

is that this is a choice in the end

0:26:140:26:20

about what sort of country we want

to be. We cannot be simultaneously a

0:26:200:26:26

high wage, high regulation economy

and a low-wage, low regulation

0:26:260:26:30

economy. We have to choose if we

want a close trading relationship

0:26:300:26:34

with Europe or not. That is why

neither of these parties are honest

0:26:340:26:38

with the public.

One other issue is

state aid, an important cornerstone

0:26:380:26:43

of what Jeremy Corbyn was to do in

terms of economic policy. Labour

0:26:430:26:48

wants to undermine the principle of

no state aid, which is a principle

0:26:480:26:52

that is crucial to the internal EU

market.

Why and how? I disagree with

0:26:520:26:58

that and I slightly disagree with

Rebecca in the way it was

0:26:580:27:02

characterised in that interview. If

you look at countries like France,

0:27:020:27:05

it is not true to say that remaining

within the European Union is a

0:27:050:27:09

barrier to state aid. I think it is

a genuine fear but one that is not

0:27:090:27:16

fully borne out by the fact. I think

it is possible to remain within the

0:27:160:27:21

European Union, not that we are, we

are leaving, but it is possible to

0:27:210:27:25

do that and intervene in markets. I

do not think that is a consideration

0:27:250:27:30

that should determine any political

party.

You were stating earlier that

0:27:300:27:34

it is the commission that is

negotiating, but it is also true to

0:27:340:27:38

say that other countries have had

bespoke deal. Look at Turkey with

0:27:380:27:44

regard to the customs union and

Switzerland with regard to

0:27:440:27:46

bilateral.

We were talking in the

context of doing trade deals with

0:27:460:27:50

the rest of the world and it is the

European Commission that does that.

0:27:500:27:53

Even as members, we did not have

that much say. You cannot be in a

0:27:530:27:58

customs union and exert influence on

outside trade policy. That is a

0:27:580:28:06

fact. However, what is interesting

is one thing is for certain, food

0:28:060:28:10

will stay expensive. It is the other

thing the customs union does, it

0:28:100:28:15

determines the tariffs on imports

from the rest of the world on items

0:28:150:28:20

like shoes, food, brass, the things

that the poorest families spend the

0:28:200:28:24

biggest part of their incomes on.

Those things will stay expensive if

0:28:240:28:28

we stay in a customs union and that

is something that Labour voters need

0:28:280:28:31

to understand.

What do you say to

that? There was a line from

0:28:310:28:41

that? There was a line from Jacob

Rees Mogg about that.

In

0:28:410:28:44

constituencies like mine relatively

speaking prices are higher than

0:28:440:28:46

anywhere else. The idea that you

could be the champion of the poor.

0:28:460:28:51

Food produced for those on lower

incomes in an average family would

0:28:510:28:59

be higher.

That is the difference

between the customs union and a

0:28:590:29:03

customs union because a customs

union enables you to negotiate.

0:29:030:29:09

No-bid does not. You are either part

of a legal entity or you are not.

0:29:090:29:14

That is also part of the argument

around the single market.

Keir

0:29:140:29:19

Starmer implied it would be the

customs union.

No, a customs union.

0:29:190:29:24

I see what you mean. We are looking

to mirror those terms so we can have

0:29:240:29:29

frictionless trade and help to move

us forward to solving the problems

0:29:290:29:34

in Northern Ireland. That seems to

be a good thing.

0:29:340:29:37

That seems to be a good thing.

0:29:370:29:37

Jeremy Corbyn's shift in direction

on Brexit has stoked speculation

0:29:370:29:40

that the government could be

defeated if Labour MPs

0:29:400:29:42

and Conservative rebels join forces

to inflict a defeat in the Commons

0:29:420:29:45

over the issue of the customs union.

0:29:450:29:46

Well, the international development

secretary Liam Fox yesterday urged

0:29:460:29:49

potential rebels to keep

an open mind.

0:29:490:29:52

I say to my colleague,

Theresa May has kept a broad range

0:29:520:29:55

of views on the European issue

in her Cabinet for a reason.

0:29:550:29:58

We sat down with those different

views, we looked at the issues,

0:29:580:30:01

we looked at the options and we came

to an agreement that

0:30:010:30:04

we are all happy with.

0:30:040:30:06

And I think that when the rest

of the Parliamentary party hears,

0:30:060:30:10

on Friday, as the Prime Minister

sets it out, what we...

0:30:100:30:13

She's going to win over

Anna Soubry, do you think?

0:30:130:30:16

Well, I hope they will have an open

mind and listen to what the Prime

0:30:160:30:20

Minister says because I think

what the Prime Minister

0:30:200:30:22

will set out will deal

with a lot of the reservations

0:30:220:30:24

that they've had.

0:30:240:30:29

Well, one of those potential

rebels is the Conservative

0:30:290:30:31

MP Stephen Hammond.

0:30:310:30:33

He's put his name to a cross-party

amendment calling for the country

0:30:330:30:35

to remain within a customs union

with the EU after Brexit.

0:30:350:30:38

He joins us now.

0:30:380:30:44

Welcome to Daily Politics. You just

heard Liam Fox saying your fears

0:30:440:30:47

will be addressed by the Prime

Minister in her speech on Friday.

0:30:470:30:50

What does she have to say to keep

you add other Tory MPs on-board?

I

0:30:500:30:54

think what I hope she's going to say

and specify... We were talking a lot

0:30:540:31:02

about a war the customs union. I

want to hear her talk about how

0:31:020:31:09

we'll get over nontariff barriers.

What would arrangements allow us to

0:31:090:31:13

do in terms of a customs union. I

want to hear her talk about all

0:31:130:31:19

these sectors of the UK economy and

I want to understand that we will

0:31:190:31:22

look at the real economic and

protect what businesses and jobs the

0:31:220:31:28

UK needs.

Will you accept anything

less than the UK being part of a war

0:31:280:31:33

the customs union?

0:31:330:31:38

the customs union?

I -- a or the

customs union? I brought the quote

0:31:400:31:43

of the Prime Minister made in her

Lancaster house speech in our party

0:31:430:31:48

manifesto. In our party manifesto we

are committed to a combo hence if

0:31:480:31:53

free trade and customs agreement.

Customs agreement could be a customs

0:31:530:31:58

union. I am prepared to be

open-minded.

Should the Prime

0:31:580:32:01

Minister say that on Friday in her

speech?

I think Brexit is a process,

0:32:010:32:07

not just an event and as part of

that process we have the

0:32:070:32:10

negotiations which will be taking

place later this month as next

0:32:100:32:12

month. As part of the speech, we're

talking semantics when it comes to a

0:32:120:32:17

or the customs union. A customs

union in itself binds us to a

0:32:170:32:23

collective decision-making browsers

when it comes to free trade deals

0:32:230:32:25

which is obviously what were not

going to do.

The key distinction

0:32:250:32:33

between a or the is a allows us to

do our own deals and the will allow

0:32:330:32:40

those deals which you and Liam and

others want us to do alongside a

0:32:400:32:46

jury our relationship.

There isn't

evidence the EU will allow that.

0:32:460:32:53

Would you accept a customs union?

No. We are looking for a partnership

0:32:530:32:57

which is separate from the union. We

are collectively binding ourselves

0:32:570:33:00

to the EU 27 when it comes to

setting tablets that would impose

0:33:000:33:04

higher prices on those goods coming

in from outside the EU. We also want

0:33:040:33:07

to ensure we have those deals with

the US, with China, the big global

0:33:070:33:13

nations. .

It doesn't like to get

what you want terms of a customs

0:33:130:33:20

union or partnership. If you don't,

will you press ahead voting with

0:33:200:33:23

Labour MPs to force the government

to make sure the UK stays within a

0:33:230:33:28

customs union with screen to be

technically correct, they'd be

0:33:280:33:32

voting with us. Your voting with

each other.

I bring Chris back. We

0:33:320:33:38

are very close to an agreement here.

I think that with a customs union

0:33:380:33:43

it'll be perfectly possible to agree

and secure a frictionless trade and

0:33:430:33:47

the tariff and I hope that nontariff

barriers. It will also allow us to

0:33:470:33:53

do outside deals. I'll be looking to

see what the difference between a

0:33:530:33:58

customs union and a customs

partnership actually is.

But are you

0:33:580:34:01

prepared to go through the lobby

with Labour colleagues?

This is a

0:34:010:34:06

process. Where a long way from that.

As Liam has said rightly, I will

0:34:060:34:10

listen to what the primaries says on

Friday. Until I have that, I

0:34:100:34:13

wouldn't give a view on something

that may or may not happen.

What do

0:34:130:34:18

you make of it being turned into a

vote of confidence in the Prime

0:34:180:34:21

Minister?

I'm sure that won't

happen.

But if it were to be

0:34:210:34:25

discussed, would that put pressure

on you to change your mind to vote

0:34:250:34:28

for an amendment to defeat the

government?

You heard Mr Corbyn's

0:34:280:34:33

speech today which was vacuous. He

had nothing more to say. He restated

0:34:330:34:37

his position he's had all the way

along. He had nothing to say about

0:34:370:34:41

the biggest sector of the economy,

nontariff barriers. He talked about

0:34:410:34:45

the regulatory race to the bottom

which David Davis has already ruled

0:34:450:34:48

out. The answer, if Jeremy Corbyn is

the answer, the question is how do

0:34:480:34:55

you destroy UK jobs? I want to do

anything to support that.

County

0:34:550:34:59

respond to that character Asian --

characterisation?

Voting on an issue

0:34:590:35:06

that potentially put him at

loggerheads with the Prime Minister.

0:35:060:35:08

The truth of this is that there is

very strong cross-party agreement

0:35:080:35:12

that a customs union could

potentially solve a lot of the

0:35:120:35:15

problems that we have and it seems

to me that we ought to be working

0:35:150:35:18

together in a constructive way to

achieve it. I don't think the

0:35:180:35:21

electorate Wood Group ward -- we

would any particular party that is

0:35:210:35:26

seeking to make capital out of this.

Our primary concern should be how do

0:35:260:35:30

we advance the situation in which we

are leaving the European Union and

0:35:300:35:33

we do so on the best terms for

British jobs and for Britain?

One of

0:35:330:35:37

the things Lisa raises in terms of a

solution is to the Northern Irish

0:35:370:35:42

issue, to the border. Being part of

a customs union would deal with that

0:35:420:35:45

in a way that hasn't been, even at

the end of that first phase of

0:35:450:35:49

negotiations.

It is obviously to me

else making speech. David Lidington

0:35:490:35:54

will be making a speech on how we

want the Brexit process to work for

0:35:540:35:57

all areas of the UK in terms of

Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales

0:35:570:36:02

and how we create the internal

market. The Prime Minister has

0:36:020:36:06

committed at the end of phase one of

negotiations to dealing with the

0:36:060:36:10

issue.

It doesn't have a solution.

We committed to making sure the Good

0:36:100:36:14

Friday Agreement remains in place.

But being committed is not the same

0:36:140:36:19

as having an answer to how we deal

with it. If outside the customs

0:36:190:36:22

union there would have to be a

border somewhere. Whether it's down

0:36:220:36:24

the sea, which would break up the

integrity of the UK as the

0:36:240:36:29

Democratic Unionists see it, or

whether there would be border checks

0:36:290:36:32

between the UK and Ireland which

would threaten the Good Friday

0:36:320:36:35

Agreement.

This will be looked at

Friday the draft text is published.

0:36:350:36:40

With a draft comes the ability to

extend negotiating positions and you

0:36:400:36:44

know it's right we listened to

Ireland's concern, Northern

0:36:440:36:49

Ireland's concerned.

What's the

solution quiz the yellow -- what's

0:36:490:36:53

the solution?

That is taking the

situation... When you look at the

0:36:530:37:02

Northern Ireland situation with the

border there we have the opportunity

0:37:020:37:05

to look at how we can preserve the

union in Northern Ireland but also

0:37:050:37:10

making sure goods and services can

flow freely.

I understand the aim

0:37:100:37:14

but not the solution if you're

outside a customs union.

I believe

0:37:140:37:17

we have the opportunity at looking

at...

There isn't one.

Special

0:37:170:37:26

passes, electronic opportunities and

looking at how we can create that

0:37:260:37:29

order. It's not a hard border. The

Prime Minister has been very clear

0:37:290:37:33

and I believe her when she says we

won't go back to hide border. We

0:37:330:37:37

need to allow her the space to

negotiate and come up with a decent

0:37:370:37:40

solution.

How concerned are you

about your colleagues like Stephen

0:37:400:37:43

Hammond who will vote against the

government if there isn't some

0:37:430:37:46

indication of a customs union?

I was

a minister taking through the EU

0:37:460:37:51

withdrawal bill last year when we

were looking at devolution in the

0:37:510:37:54

Avent office. We have 60 amendments

and one defeat. This is a legal

0:37:540:37:57

process by which we have to listen

and that's why the government

0:37:570:38:01

delayed the legislation in order to

have the opportunity to react.

Come

0:38:010:38:05

back and tell us what you think of

the speech on Friday. At some stage.

0:38:050:38:09

I'd be delighted.

Any viewers who

have a strong allergic reaction to

0:38:090:38:15

more news about Brexit should look

away now.

0:38:150:38:18

Because it's shaping up to be

another busy week in politics,

0:38:180:38:21

and the "B" word is going

to figure throughout.

0:38:210:38:23

Tomorrow, International Trade

Secretary Liam Fox will give

0:38:230:38:25

the latest "road to Brexit" speech.

0:38:250:38:26

He is under pressure

to justify his claim

0:38:260:38:28

that the benefits of being outside

the customs union outweigh

0:38:280:38:31

the potential losses.

0:38:310:38:32

Tomorrow will also see Theresa May

update the full cabinet

0:38:320:38:34

on the Brexit Meeting at Chequers.

0:38:340:38:36

On Wednesday the European

commissioners will publish its full

0:38:360:38:38

legal text of Britain's exit treaty.

0:38:380:38:39

That's the deal that was struck

at the end of the first

0:38:390:38:42

round of negotiations in December.

0:38:420:38:44

Theresa May will meet EU

President Donald Tusk

0:38:440:38:47

in Downing Street on Thursday.

0:38:470:38:48

And then on Friday, Theresa May

will give her fourth

0:38:480:38:50

major Brexit speech.

0:38:500:38:57

Look at this scene!

0:38:570:38:59

We're joined now by two journalists

who can tell their managed

0:38:590:39:02

divergence from their customs union.

0:39:020:39:03

It's Jessica Elgot of the Guardian

and Jack Blanchard of Politico.

0:39:030:39:06

We've kindly given them a reason

to take a break from their nice warm

0:39:060:39:09

offices on College Green outside

Parliament.

0:39:090:39:13

You'll never agreed to do this

again, will you, if the weather is

0:39:130:39:19

like this. No need to brush the snow

of your coat! Your reaction to

0:39:190:39:23

Jeremy Corbyn's speech. Does it

change the terms of crit trade

0:39:230:39:27

between the two parties?

Its doors.

There is now really sort of clear

0:39:270:39:33

water in between the Conservatives

and Labour. Not perhaps if you dig

0:39:330:39:37

really deep into the detail of

Corbyn's speech. He says we want a

0:39:370:39:44

special partnership with the EU and

even echoed the phrase the premises

0:39:440:39:47

to use is quite often that we are

leaving the EU was not Europe.

0:39:470:39:50

There's still a lot of striking

similarity apart from on this one

0:39:500:39:53

key issue which is that they would

seek a customs union with the EU

0:39:530:39:57

which would mean there is some limit

on the amount of trade deals Britain

0:39:570:40:05

could do.

How much pressure does it

but on the Prime Minister?

A huge

0:40:050:40:09

mind. We have the vote looming on

the customs union. We thought it

0:40:090:40:11

would be in the next week but the

Tories have put it back now until

0:40:110:40:15

date unknown in the next few weeks

because the truth is there not sure

0:40:150:40:19

they've got the numbers to win it.

If enough Tory rebels joined with

0:40:190:40:22

Labour to defeat the Prime Minister

I really don't know what happens

0:40:220:40:25

then. It's a huge problem for her

and I guess the crunch comes, can

0:40:250:40:30

those Tory rebels be peeled off once

they realise the potential

0:40:300:40:33

consequences of them doing that

would be bringing down the whole

0:40:330:40:38

government.

Is that how you see it

too, Jessica, that is talked about

0:40:380:40:42

turning any vote on the trade built

around this amendment to stay in a

0:40:420:40:47

customs union that's actually been

proposed by Anna Soubry could be a

0:40:470:40:51

vote of confidence on the Prime

Minister?

That's the argument Tory

0:40:510:40:55

whips will be making to their

quivering colleagues on that. It's

0:40:550:40:58

not quite the same as voting on an

amendment. The withdrawal bill which

0:40:580:41:03

is about parliamentary democracy and

getting a vote on the final deal.

0:41:030:41:06

This is about really keen tenant of

what the Prime Minister's

0:41:060:41:11

negotiating strategy is. I don't see

how it's anything other than a

0:41:110:41:14

confidence vote on the Prime

Minister. There is another key

0:41:140:41:18

problem to getting this vote

through, that is Labour

0:41:180:41:21

Eurosceptics. Labour Eurosceptics

voted on the amendment to defeat the

0:41:210:41:27

government last hurrah. This is a

different ask them and it will be up

0:41:270:41:30

to Labour whips to make sure they

can keep them in mind, as well.

What

0:41:300:41:34

does it do, Jack, to the 80 Labour

MPs or so who would like Jeremy

0:41:340:41:38

Corbyn to go further than just

saying the UK would remain in a

0:41:380:41:41

customs union under Labour's policy,

but actually that Labour should

0:41:410:41:45

confirm it would remain in the

single market with eye and it step

0:41:450:41:48

in the right direction as far as

they're concerned. They want Corbyn

0:41:480:41:51

to go much further than that and I

don't think he's going to do that.

0:41:510:41:55

The Labour leaders have been very --

Labour leaders have been clear that

0:41:550:42:00

staying in the single market would

maintain free movement and no that

0:42:000:42:03

would alienate a fusion of their own

voters. It would put them over to

0:42:030:42:07

the charge that there are defying

the will of the people.

I don't

0:42:070:42:12

think you will go that far. Those 80

MPs I think would be reasonably

0:42:120:42:15

happy that they helped to ship later

into a position to stay closer to

0:42:150:42:20

Europe than they might otherwise

have been.

Let talk about Ken

0:42:200:42:24

Livingstone, the former Labour Mayor

of London. His suspension from the

0:42:240:42:29

party is due to end at the end of

April. What is actually happening in

0:42:290:42:33

terms of him being readmitted to the

party winner hasn't yet been an

0:42:330:42:38

enquiry into what he said in terms

of Hitler supporting Zionism?

0:42:380:42:43

Technically what would happen is if

somebody is suspended as a member

0:42:430:42:47

then once the suspension ends they

continue to be a member. The problem

0:42:470:42:50

that Labour MPs, some of whom are

incredibly opposed to Ken

0:42:500:42:55

Livingstone being readmitted, is

that the control of the NEC, which

0:42:550:43:00

is Labour's governing body, which

decides on a lot of these matters,

0:43:000:43:04

they decide on whether to have an

enquiry into this, is now very much

0:43:040:43:08

controlled by supporters of Jeremy

Corbyn. That is thoroughly mean

0:43:080:43:11

supporters of Ken Livingstone, but

those who want to push Ken's

0:43:110:43:16

suspension have a task.

I was told

by someone in Labour HQ some weeks

0:43:160:43:22

ago that they have no doubts Ken

Livingstone was coming back into the

0:43:220:43:25

party.

Thank you very much. Quickly

run back inside! Are

0:43:250:43:28

you in favour of Ken Livingstone

being readmitted?

I think he should

0:43:280:43:35

have been expelled in the first

place.

Do you think that the

0:43:350:43:38

decisions the NEC should make?

We

have to follow due process but my

0:43:380:43:41

feeling is the NEC will discuss this

at some point before the suspension

0:43:410:43:44

ends and Obee

0:43:440:43:46

at some point before the suspension

ends and Obee, people urging them

0:43:460:43:50

that people who express views like

that should not be in the Labour

0:43:500:43:52

Party.

0:43:520:43:54

Later today MPs will be debating

another aspect of life after Brexit

0:43:540:43:57

when they respond to a petition

calling for an end to the export

0:43:570:44:00

of live animals for slaughter.

0:44:000:44:01

It's been an emotive issue

for years, with campaigners

0:44:010:44:03

blockading ports to stop

what they see as a cruel trade

0:44:030:44:06

which can mean animals

travelling long distances

0:44:060:44:07

to abattoirs in Europe.

0:44:070:44:08

The broadcaster Selina Scott says

that once free of EU rules,

0:44:080:44:11

the UK should ban it altogether.

0:44:110:44:13

Here's her soapbox.

0:44:130:44:19

I have a farm in this beautiful

corner of North Yorkshire.

0:44:300:44:32

My life these days

is tied to the seasons

0:44:320:44:35

and the farming calendar.

0:44:350:44:37

Soon, it will be spring,

and in these fields all around

0:44:370:44:40

here there'll be newborn lambs

frolicking in the fresh

0:44:400:44:43

air with their mothers.

0:44:430:44:46

The life of a lamb,

unfortunately, is a short one.

0:44:460:44:48

Once they're a year,

old and after fattening,

0:44:480:44:53

Once they're a year

old and after fattening,

0:44:530:44:55

they're taken to the local market

and sold for slaughter.

0:44:550:44:57

Or worse.

0:44:570:45:00

It was the monks of great Cistercian

abbeys, like Rievaulx here,

0:45:040:45:07

who brought huge flocks of sheep

to the area and made immense amounts

0:45:070:45:11

of money out of the sale of wool -

riches that Henry VIII seized along

0:45:110:45:14

with their land.

0:45:140:45:18

600 years later, and the sale of one

lamb at auction can fetch

0:45:180:45:21

between £80 and £100 -

not nearly enough to pay

0:45:210:45:25

for the full-time shepherding skills

needed to care for sheep.

0:45:250:45:31

Skills that are now a dying art.

0:45:310:45:34

Sheep - plain and simple, these days

- have become industrialised.

0:45:340:45:38

They've become mere commodities, no

longer treated as sentient beings -

0:45:380:45:42

animals that can feel pain.

0:45:420:45:50

And we as a nation of animal lovers

- and to our everlasting shame -

0:45:500:45:53

have turned a blind eye

to the cruelty inflicted

0:45:530:45:56

on our sheep and lambs once

they're sold at auction.

0:45:560:46:02

The condoning of the trade in live

lambs across the European Union

0:46:020:46:05

is absolutely abhorrent.

0:46:050:46:08

In the UK, thousands of lambs

and sheep are herded

0:46:080:46:11

into overcrowded trucks

from counties like Cumbria

0:46:110:46:14

and Yorkshire, and driven hundreds

of miles, without food or fresh

0:46:140:46:18

water, to be shipped from Ramsgate

in Kent to revolting abattoirs

0:46:180:46:23

somewhere in southern or Eastern

Europe.

0:46:230:46:27

Instead of a humane killing

in a local abattoir,

0:46:270:46:32

sold on as a carcass,

these poor creatures have

0:46:320:46:34

to suffocate in transit,

suffer with broken bones and damaged

0:46:340:46:38

bodies, until they reach

their destination, where they meet

0:46:380:46:41

an unspeakable death.

0:46:410:46:45

For years, the EU has been the prime

enabler of this cruelty.

0:46:450:46:49

And successive UK governments have

supinely acquiesced.

0:46:490:46:53

Well, we're at a turning point,

and now there is no excuse.

0:46:530:46:58

We're leaving the EU.

0:46:580:47:00

We no longer have to follow EU rules

on live transportation of animals

0:47:000:47:03

across the continent.

0:47:030:47:05

We must finish off this

trade once and for all

0:47:050:47:07

and with immediate effect.

0:47:070:47:15

And Selina Scott joins us now.

0:47:150:47:21

Welcome to the Daily Politics. What

do you say to those within the

0:47:210:47:24

farming industry itself who say that

leaving the EU will put their

0:47:240:47:27

industry at risk?

First of all, we

are not talking about dealers, but a

0:47:270:47:34

lot of farmers do not like this

business and do not want this

0:47:340:47:38

business of animals going off like

this. They send them to market and

0:47:380:47:41

they sell them. There is nothing

they can do about it after that. The

0:47:410:47:47

other point is this is still a very

marginal trade. One in 300 sheep is

0:47:470:47:51

sent to Europe and to far-flung

places further on from Europe. But

0:47:510:47:57

even so it is a filthy business. I

talked about sheep. Calves are being

0:47:570:48:04

sent, I'm weaned calves from

Northern Ireland spent six days in

0:48:040:48:09

trucks all the way to Spain. As a

nation do we care about the animals

0:48:090:48:16

that we put into these situations?

Do we care that they suffer? That is

0:48:160:48:20

basically the question. Farmers are

on the whole behind it, but it is

0:48:200:48:28

now down to politicians to do

something about it.

Do you accept

0:48:280:48:31

that there are some journeys, going

to France and Belgium for example,

0:48:310:48:37

might be shorter than going to other

parts of the UK?

No, the fact is we

0:48:370:48:42

are talking about welfare. If you

send any animal over a long distance

0:48:420:48:47

over water, you do not know where

they are going to end up. Yes, a

0:48:470:48:51

farmer consent his or her animals to

an abattoir in France. It can then

0:48:510:48:58

be re-exported to Turkey for

example. The other day a Brazilian

0:48:580:49:03

court stopped the live

transportation of animals from

0:49:030:49:06

Brazil to abattoirs in Turkey

because of the grotesque conditions

0:49:060:49:11

that Turkish abattoirs put their

animals through. This has been

0:49:110:49:16

happening for 40 years.

What is the

government doing about it? They have

0:49:160:49:19

said once they have left the EU,

there will be the ability to

0:49:190:49:28

consider further this area. It is

opaque.

Once Brexit happens we will

0:49:280:49:33

have the opportunity to create our

own separate, new, public body that

0:49:330:49:38

will look at environmental standards

and public welfare.

Should

0:49:380:49:44

environment be a major issue?

There

is already legislation to bring in

0:49:440:49:49

CCTV in abattoirs in this country,

but there is a balance about the

0:49:490:49:55

standards not being abroad. We have

higher standards in the UK and it is

0:49:550:49:58

right that we need to look at this

going forward. It could be an

0:49:580:50:02

enormous benefit.

So you are warm to

the idea.

And you, Lisa? Very warm.

0:50:020:50:09

It is not true to say there is

nothing we can do at the moment

0:50:090:50:13

because although it is right to say

the single market potentially

0:50:130:50:16

prevents us from banning live

exports of animals, it does not

0:50:160:50:20

prevent us from putting stricter

standards in place into the court

0:50:200:50:24

system at the moment. I would like

to see something done now rather

0:50:240:50:27

than wrangle about what we do in the

future with a view to ending this

0:50:270:50:31

practice.

Do you agree, more could

be done right now before leaving the

0:50:310:50:36

EU?

What is stopping us? In an

agricultural bill stop it now,

0:50:360:50:41

finish it. It has been going on for

40 years. This is a country that

0:50:410:50:46

thinks of itself as a nation of

animal lovers. People like me, lots

0:50:460:50:53

and lots of people feel marginalised

by this behaviour and we should stop

0:50:530:50:56

it now.

If it could be done now

without or even before leaving the

0:50:560:51:00

EU, how much pressure can you put on

the government, the current

0:51:000:51:03

government to take you up on this?

There is a petition and if anyone is

0:51:030:51:11

listening and wants to sign it,

there is a petition called petition

0:51:110:51:14

200, go to the Parliament website.

Put your name to it because it is

0:51:140:51:19

the power of the people that will

change this. If it is left to the

0:51:190:51:25

politicians, we will argue about the

rights and wrongs and whether the

0:51:250:51:27

farmers wanted and the dealers

wanted, allowing unscrupulous people

0:51:270:51:32

to take advantage of this transition

period we are supposed to be going

0:51:320:51:36

through and that is not good enough.

Except the Scottish Government is

0:51:360:51:41

not keen on what you are proposing

and they want to stay in the EU.

0:51:410:51:45

They say it would damage the

livestock industry there so you will

0:51:450:51:48

not have their support.

I don't know

how the spokesman for the Scottish

0:51:480:51:56

parliament can live with himself

when he sees I'm weaned calves taken

0:51:560:52:00

off their mothers and put into

trucks and spending six days

0:52:000:52:04

travelling. How can a man like that

get up in the morning and say he is

0:52:040:52:11

doing his best?

He will say, and I

am not a spokesman for the Scottish

0:52:110:52:15

Government, but he will say it will

damage the livestock industry.

0:52:150:52:22

damage the livestock industry.

The

English system of subsidies which

0:52:230:52:24

are given to farmers for acreage.

They do not have to raise animals to

0:52:240:52:30

get the subsidy. In Scotland it is

per head of sheep or cattle. It is

0:52:300:52:36

different. Eventually this all has

to be brought into line. It is up to

0:52:360:52:39

the politicians to work out how

Scotland comes into line with

0:52:390:52:43

England and help England comes into

line with Scotland. The most

0:52:430:52:46

important thing is the welfare of

animals.

Selina Scott, thank you.

0:52:460:52:51

Selina Scott, thank you.

0:52:510:52:52

Now, you may be aware

of the campaign to give 16-year-olds

0:52:520:52:55

across the UK the right to vote -

it's been endorsed by

0:52:550:52:59

the Labour Party, among others,

although it's opposed

0:52:590:53:00

by the government which argues

the voting age should remain at 18.

0:53:000:53:03

But one campaigner says he wants

it to go even lower,

0:53:030:53:06

although we suspect he may just be

trying to make a point.

0:53:060:53:14

At age 12 you can have your ears

pierced, but you are not allowed to

0:53:160:53:20

vote.

0:53:200:53:20

The man you saw there

launching his campaign,

0:53:470:53:50

which we assume is satirical,

is Tom Harwood.

0:53:500:53:52

He joins us now, as does

Liam Preston from the YMCA

0:53:520:53:55

which is campaigning -

entirely sincerely I think -

0:53:550:53:57

for the voting age

to be lowered to 16.

0:53:570:54:03

Is it a joke?

It raises an important

point. That is a lot of the

0:54:030:54:08

arguments about votes at 16 can be

applied to 12-year-olds will stop

0:54:080:54:13

you might say that 12-year-olds are

not allowed to buy alcohol, buy

0:54:130:54:17

cigarettes, drive, fight for the

country, marry without permission,

0:54:170:54:21

but that is true of 16-year-olds as

well. When you look at the issue of

0:54:210:54:26

lowering the franchise, we need to

rest it on what we consider to be an

0:54:260:54:31

adult in this country. Lowering it

to 16 races of difficult questions

0:54:310:54:38

about responsibilities and rights of

16-year-olds.

What do you say? It

0:54:380:54:44

has raised the awareness of the

issue of votes at 16. Young people

0:54:440:54:49

at 16 and 17 are mature enough to

vote, they are well educated enough

0:54:490:54:53

to vote. They are already engaged in

the type of issues debated at

0:54:530:54:57

elections. When they are given the

opportunity, like in the Scottish

0:54:570:55:03

referendum, they will come out and

vote and I cannot see why we are not

0:55:030:55:06

lowering it to that franchise for a

more equal society.

It is a question

0:55:060:55:15

of what age you become a citizen. 16

is the suggestion. People can

0:55:150:55:20

register to vote at 16, but they

cannot vote. In Scotland they can

0:55:200:55:25

register at 14. Soon we will be

registering at ten. You have to ask

0:55:250:55:32

what is the space people can have to

grow up without being bombarded by

0:55:320:55:37

messages from politicians. Look at

Nicaraguan, Ecuador, Argentina,

0:55:370:55:42

Brazil, most of these countries are

18.

It is quite clever stunt. We

0:55:420:55:51

mature at different ages, you do not

become an adult overnight. You can

0:55:510:55:56

be criminally responsible for your

actions at ten. It seems to me that

0:55:560:56:02

what we are arguing about is a

question of where you strike the

0:56:020:56:06

right balance. For me the question

has always been when we have

0:56:060:56:10

extended the franchise it has always

been a good thing. The question

0:56:100:56:14

should be not why do it? But it

should be why not. In the case of

0:56:140:56:19

16-year-olds at the moment I cannot

see any reasons for not to.

I would

0:56:190:56:26

say the arguments about 12-year-olds

could be applied to 16-year-olds.

0:56:260:56:31

16-year-olds have the right

political knowledge and education

0:56:310:56:34

and that is true, but I do not think

we should be basing the franchise on

0:56:340:56:38

knowledge and education.

Can the

same arguments be applied to

0:56:380:56:42

12-year-olds are 16-year-olds?

When

you are 12, you are in a very

0:56:420:56:48

different place in life than when

you are 16 and 17. 16 and

0:56:480:56:57

17-year-olds know how mature they

are and they want to engage in

0:56:570:57:00

society and they want to shake

democracy. One of the issues is that

0:57:000:57:04

politicians do not engage enough

with young people and this will give

0:57:040:57:08

an opportunity for parties to look

at themselves, what can they do for

0:57:080:57:11

young people?

I have a undermining

the campaign being run?

If anything

0:57:110:57:18

undermines the campaign it is people

who campaign for votes at

0:57:180:57:23

16-year-olds comparing themselves to

suffragettes. You might not have

0:57:230:57:27

done, but many campaigners have them

and that is what I am trying to

0:57:270:57:31

satirise. There is not the same

systematic discrimination against

0:57:310:57:35

the marginalised groups in the past

and against 16-year-old and

0:57:350:57:42

17-year-olds.

But they are more

affected by the decisions we make.

0:57:420:57:47

Climate change is a good example. If

we do not deal with it, that

0:57:470:57:51

generation will be more affected.

And 12-year-olds even more affected.

0:57:510:57:56

Generally speaking we do not accept

12-year-olds operate independently.

0:57:560:58:01

They have someone at home looking

after them, they do not go out very

0:58:010:58:05

much by themselves. 16 is different.

The age of majority, the age in

0:58:050:58:10

which someone comes into charge of

their own actions and block liable

0:58:100:58:16

for someone else, that is 18.

Is it

because they do not have a say?

0:58:160:58:25

Arguing that this is a transactional

approach and if we do not give

0:58:250:58:30

16-year-olds vote, politicians will

ignore issues, misses the point.

0:58:300:58:36

When it comes to looking at youth

services, when we look at what we

0:58:360:58:40

want to provide in the future, and

one of the key arguments for

0:58:400:58:45

reducing the deficit was making sure

that we did not saddle the next

0:58:450:58:49

generation with it.

We have to do a

whole programme on this.

0:58:490:58:52

We have to do a whole

programme on this.

0:58:520:58:55

That's all for today.

0:58:550:58:56

Thanks to our guests.

0:58:560:58:57

The one o'clock news is starting

over on BBC One now.

0:58:570:58:59

Jo Coburn presents the latest political news with guests Lisa Nandy and Chris Skidmore, as Jeremy Corbyn lays out Labour's Brexit position in a speech in Coventry.


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