13/10/2012 Dateline London


13/10/2012

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After seven years leading the British Conservative Party and more

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than two years as Prime Minister, why did David Cameron need to tell

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us this week who he is and what he stands for? Is the shooting of a

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14-year-old girl in Pakistan are watershed for Pakistan and the

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entire country? And the EU wins the Nobel Peace Prize - is it ever

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likely to win the prize for economics? Shahar so dollar is with

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us, Agnes Poirrier, Catherine Mayer and Steve Richards. The British

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party conference season has seen the leader of the opposition, Ed

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Miliband, trying to reintroduce himself to the British public and

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redefine his party as One Nation Labour. More surprisingly, the

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Prime Minister, David Cameron, also talked about his background and

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redefined his personal values and tried to explain what his

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leadership is all about. Why is it that he feels we don't already

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know? The speech was very well received generally by critics on

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the left and right, but it did seem he was trying to fill a big gap.

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the really interesting point. I think the answer to it is that he

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has deliberately avoided giving too much definition. In other words, he

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has deliberately avoided talking about his past because he doesn't

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want to talk about the fact that he went to Eton. He felt finally he

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had to address it head-on, seven years after becoming leader.

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Similarly with his policies, they are quite radical. George Osborne,

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the Chancellor, in his speech described them rightly in my view

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as quiet revolution. What has happened is they have preferred to

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get on with it without trying to explain to match what they are

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trying to do. But it's not working politically and he felt he had to

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come out and find himself more clearly this week. That has the

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advantage of some clarity. He put his case well. But it does mean

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that the next election will be the first fought for some time where we

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will have a Conservative leader arguing absolutely rooted on the

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right of British politics, which is where I think he is and will be,

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and a Labour leader more clearly to the centre-left than was the case

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under either Tony Blair and, publicly, Gordon Brown. I wondered

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how much you felt, as part of these calculations, the Boris factor

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comes into it? The Mayor of London, not because he's going to become

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leader of the Conservative Party, but he is somebody who has had a

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similar privileged background, who bangs on about it and is quite

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happy to talk about it and is actually a popular figure. David

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Cameron never seeming to be ashamed of his Etonian background, he says

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he wants to spread that kind of privilege around, but he hasn't

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been so clear, has he? That's right. Boris played into the conference in

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all sorts of interesting ways. What that meant was you had this spectre

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always at the edge of the stage whenever Cameron was there of the

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person who is seen as the next leader now. Which may be a curse

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for Boris. Borrowers behaved himself at this conference. --

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Boris. He not only didn't say anything terribly in from a trip,

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but he is quite capable of whipping up a crowd into a frenzy. It's one

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of the reasons he's so popular. He didn't do it, he had these two big

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speeches, but particularly one in the Symphony Hall, where he could

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have had people eating out of his hands. He really dialled it down

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quite a lot. One of the most interesting things I found, I don't

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know whether this is just me being completely jaded after three weeks

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of party conferences, was how successful they were at being

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boring. Is that they complement? thought it was very interesting

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because it was a very workmanlike conference. It was a conference

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about a party that is in government that sees itself in government to

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2050. And for once they seemed more interested in talking to each other.

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I think Cameron's speech was very much addressed to his base, rather

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than... Usually these speeches are so... Have some edge of an eye

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towards the outside world watching. I'm not saying it didn't, but a lot

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of this conference was about trying to bring the party back together

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again. All three conferences were really boring, dull and workmanlike.

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There is a reason for that. In fairness to the parties, lively

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conferences are nearly always dangerous for the parties to stage

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lively conferences. However, in British politics much more than

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French politics and American politics at the moment, there is a

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fear of excitement. There's plenty of excited people on the far left

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and far right in some countries. Boris and Cameron were playing a

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very balanced game. They come from the same background. Boris is

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banging on about it and Cameron is being rather discreet about it. But

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they are in their respective roles. Boris is a jest, of ball-winner in

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the king's court. That is what he plays. He does it very well. And

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Cameron is the PM. He can't do the same things. But together they are

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quite good. The question is when they will fight each other, if they

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ever do? The you impressed by the spectacular of dullness of all the

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conferences, as actually a great strength? I was not impressed

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because I expected it. If the Bard hadn't written Macbeth today and

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written all those lines, I would have sworn he was talking about

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party conferences. What Cameron said this time around was more in

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response to Ed Miliband. Remember the One nation idea was originally

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a Tory idea. The connotation that Ed Miliband had in mind was, we

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should be one nation and, being one nation, we should all go through

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this economic crisis together, everyone paying for it together

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according to what you can pay. Because the main attack on the

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Tories has been that the cutbacks are fine but they don't hit

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everyone equally, the underprivileged of getting hit

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harder than the privileged. The manner in which Mr Cameron

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explained his background was to say, yes, I am from a privileged

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background but that privilege was the one through hard work. My dad

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was disabled. He had a very difficult childhood because his dad

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decided to run away with another woman, which is enterprise at its

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best, you could say. It was to give that picture that, look, yes, we

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are the party of the privileged but we are not the party of the

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privileged guys who are born with a silver spoon in their mouth. We

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have worked for that privilege. far as Ed Miliband is concerned,

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the good news talking about One Nation Labour, Bataz clearly

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resonated because in some cases, some analysis of the speech show an

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attack on that, but the bad news is the Conservative attack is you are

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talking about one nation but you are opening up a Class War battle.

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That is essentially what you're doing. Going on and on about how

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you went to comprehensive school. think the bad news for Ed Miliband

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is that given that he gave a good speech and has adopted quite an

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audacious seizure of Conservative territory, he will be inevitably

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scrutinised now to find out what it means. Geographically, he's got a

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case because of the UK at the moment. Labour is the only party to

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be represented fairly well across the country in local government

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elections and so on, Scotland, where the Conservatives are non-

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existent. On that sense it works. He will now have to explain in

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policy terms what he means by that. That in politics is always the

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hardest bit. You can get the mood music right but in opposition the

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art of applying policies which chime with the mood music, and he

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hasn't even started on that part, that is the real challenge for him.

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Cameron is in a very difficult position. The scene from France, he

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looks totally a prison of the hard right. In a way, he is paying for

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not having won a big majority in the 2010 election, and therefore he

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is a prisoner of these lunatics, eurosceptics asking for more and

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more. That is what he does. He gives them a lot, he doesn't seem

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to be rewarded. It's really funny because you are seeing that

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completely a mirror images of what I see. I would say I totally agree

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with you that Cameron's problems have to do with the fact he wasn't

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a winner, he didn't win the election, and he therefore

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literally can't be the master of his own destiny, but also his base

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is worried that he isn't a winner. But what that means is not that he

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is going more to the right than he would, it means he is being forced

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to do these things to show that he is a broader-based politician.

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broader on the right. The know, it's these Big Society ideas that

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keep coming back. It's the stuff about a marriage which provoked the

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liveliest fringe debates that there were. It's all of these things to

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try and show that he is in the centre ground that don't really

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ring as true as a lot of the rest of it. The shooting of a 14-year-

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old Pakistani girl who campaigned for her right edge case there has

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shocked people around the world. Some see it as a watershed moment,

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galvanising those who did not recognise that the Taliban affect

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the state of Pakistan itself. Is this a turning point? How able is

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Pakistan when it comes to containing the Taliban? In the Swat

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Valley in particular, people have had to face quite a lot of trouble

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from the Taliban. Why has this become so resonant with in the

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country? This is a very unusual case. Here is this 14-year-old

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child. All she wanted to do was go to school and become a teacher. I

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think it has really hit the whole country that if you can hit a girl,

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just for the simple reason she wants to go to school and acquire

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an education, you have to be something very abnormal. That said,

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while there are prayers going on all over Pakistan and people are

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coming on and saying that this is not acceptable, somehow or the

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other this is not translating into a result to go out and confront the

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Taliban and hit them. They are still a lot of people who are

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saying, well, yes, the Taliban have done this, but is that real, can

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you take that on face value, what pressures were on them to do this?

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Iraq conspiracy theories are floating around that this was done

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because the government was planning and action in North Waziristan and

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this was supposed to politically pave the way for that. Any number

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of people will come on Pakistani television screens and say, yes, we

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are talking all the time about his one girl who has been hit by the

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Taliban, what about the thousands of people there have been killed

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with drones? There was one drone which hit the school and 80

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children died. Did you ever hear about it? Things like that, they

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are muddying the water. I think Pakistan is some considerable way

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yet from getting a unanimity of views on the all-important question

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- whether or not this is Pakistan's war, or is this just America's war?

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A lot of people are still saying this is America's war. Were you go

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from there is that if it is America's war, Pakistan doesn't

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have to fight it. Even for those who might think this is a wall,

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there's the next question to be asked. If it is our war, do you

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really think that a military response must play a major part,

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not the only part, but a major part in fighting this war? And in

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getting this argument forward, I think the Pakistani media has to

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play a huge role, especially the electronic media. In a country

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where education levels are low, it is the electronic media really

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which is the opinion format. Again, that is not happening quite as

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unequivocally as one would like to see. There are any number of people

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who espouse this sort of other nonsense who are given so much time

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on air channels to say what they feel. I know you've written a lot

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about secularism in France and religious extremism. How is that

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particular story, the 14-year-old girl who just wants to go to

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school? Ban Ki-Moon had a really good expression yesterday. He said,

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they are in fear of one thing. A woman with a book. Here is this

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teenager's who wears the veil. She is not Madonna, she just wants to

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go to school. She started writing for a block for the BBC when she

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was 11, just to talk about her daily life. I was hoping that she

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would get the Nobel Peace Prize, actually. A sort of symbolic

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gesture. I'm very happy with the choice they may eventually. You've

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got the human face on a struggle that everybody understands, which

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is a girl's life and education. is the symbol. Education and a

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feminist issue as well. But you start losing patience with Pakistan.

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Of course you will find people saying this is terrible, but do

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something. I agree with what you said about the drones and the

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muddying of the water. But the other thing that embodies the

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waters spectacularly is the fact that it is members of the

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government, members of the judiciary, people in positions of

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authority who give such mixed messages, or rather you have some

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of them giving messages that are more in a line it with what the

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Taliban has done. It's not been the case this time. The members of the

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government, which is the PPP, the MP and the other party which formed

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the government, they have been absolutely very clear in what they

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have been saying. They have been unequivocally critical of the

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Taliban. They've been mentioning the Taliban and saying these guys

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have got to go out again. That is what is interesting about this girl,

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you have this response because she was a young girl, somebody that

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everybody felt horrified by that attack. However, you look at what

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happened... You look at the people who came out, there were members of

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the judiciary who were actually throbbing white rose petals. --

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throw-in. It is that ilk, that sort of thinking, they are still

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muddying the water and giving you these conspiracy theories and

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:16:00.:16:06.

talking about the drones as if this What is always interesting it is

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the ambiguity that you summarised earlier, as to whether Pakistan

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feels responsible, whether it is an American responsibility. Say that

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this particular episode does to some extent resolved that ambiguity,

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what form would some kind of military response to take? When you

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say, we have got to go after these people, that is difficult. It is,

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because this is not a war in the normal sense. The other side does

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not wear uniforms, you cannot often identify it, they melt into the

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mountains. Nor am I saying that the military response has to be the

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only response. There are various levels of Taliban, various

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organisations that constitute it, they have different levels of

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commitment. Perhaps all of them do not define the cause in the same

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terms. It has to be a multi-faceted approach. To some, you can talk, to

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some, you can try to bring them into the mainstream of political

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life. But with some,... How did you talk to a person that wants to

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shoot a 14 year old girl? Is it a question of education? It is.

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the whole population, and intelligence. It is one thing to

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say, it is almost impossible to track them, they disappear, but it

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can be done sometimes. It is true. One of the great tragedies of

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Pakistan, not only that the education system has been so

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ignored in the recent past, that much of the education that has been

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given would need the education before the person can receive the

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education. The Nobel Peace Prize has been are

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awarded to the EU for its part in peace in Europe since World War II.

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It comes in a week in which the visit of Germany's Chancellor to

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Athens saw pretend that is with swastikas take to the streets. Then

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the Onassis seen to be gaining headway in Greece. Is the EU at a

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:18:42.:18:46.

worthy winner of the prize? It has been treated put laughter. In or

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about to last for another 15 minutes. Ike and the only one

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around the table... I was quite astounded at first, I thought, is

:18:56.:19:06.
:19:06.:19:09.

that right? What does that mean? After a while, I was punching the

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air, I said, of course! I thought this was inspiring, enlightened,

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visionary. Of all times, to give it when we are at each other's throats,

:19:24.:19:30.

and Angela Merkel going to Athens, you have got the swastika flags,...

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7000 police on the streets. It is fantastic to take the long view.

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Which are enthralled with the euro crisis, Nigel Farage saying it is

:19:42.:19:47.

ridiculous, extreme parties in Europe fanning the flames of

:19:47.:19:53.

discontent, and you look back and you think, my grandparents, who

:19:54.:20:00.

died in the 90s, we found in their attic 30 kilos of sugar, in case

:20:00.:20:10.
:20:10.:20:10.

there would be another war, and I do not have to store kilogrammes of

:20:10.:20:15.

sugar, because I take a piece for granted. France and Germany, this

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morning, I looked at the picture of Dresden after the war, the famous

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picture, the angel looking down, under think, and you think, this is

:20:28.:20:38.
:20:38.:20:38.

quite recent. But for us, it is history. For that alone, OK. The

:20:38.:20:48.
:20:48.:20:50.

backlash will come! I think it is a brilliant choice for comedy. I have

:20:50.:20:53.

decided the committee is actually a collective of avant garde

:20:53.:20:58.

performance artists, and they do this every year, to see how far

:20:58.:21:07.

they can go. I am enthusiastic about many aspects of the European

:21:07.:21:11.

Union, I just think the timing is hilariously inappropriate. There

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are so many things that you could praised the EU for, and the

:21:16.:21:23.

citation gets a lot of it so wrong. You are correct about peace and the

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forerunner of the EU binding France and Germany together, but many of

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the things that appear to have been claimed for the two were partly

:21:32.:21:38.

down to other organisations, like NATO, and the EU did not bring down

:21:38.:21:44.

the Berlin Wall. Also, the notion that there has been improvement in

:21:44.:21:50.

places like the Balkans, the EU was not able to prevent the biggest

:21:50.:21:57.

conflict that there has been since its founding, the Bosnian war. It

:21:57.:22:02.

had precious little impact. But if Yugoslavia had been part of the EU,

:22:02.:22:09.

that would not have been a war. There is an argument that stable

:22:09.:22:14.

democracies, former fascist countries are much more stop will -

:22:15.:22:18.

- much more stable now. But that is why the argument is so difficult

:22:18.:22:26.

now, because you cannot say that Greece is stable now. Particularly

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places where these populist parties are rising at a very fast and

:22:30.:22:35.

alarming rate. To make the Nobel Peace Prize an act of provocation

:22:35.:22:41.

in itself is part of the avant garde silliness of it all! All

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prizes are silly, so you might as well send out a message. There is a

:22:48.:22:55.

serious side to this. It reminded me why, for example, there were a

:22:55.:23:03.

generation of British politicians who wanted us to join the EU, and

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it related to their experience of the 1930s, at war. Ted Heath took

:23:12.:23:15.

Britain into the who largely on those grounds, and we forgot about

:23:15.:23:23.

that. Generations experienced the 1930s, and to be given a reminder

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that, since 1945, there has been no equivalent conflict, and it is

:23:28.:23:32.

partly to do with the fact that the countries that were always falling

:23:32.:23:37.

out came together, it is not a bad thing for a prize, given that

:23:37.:23:40.

prices are silly anyway. committee called the cause and

:23:40.:23:47.

effect relationship wrong. It is not the EU that has given rise to

:23:47.:23:56.

the desire for peace in Europe, it is the other way round. It started

:23:56.:24:04.

off in 1950 as the oil, or call and Steel Community. These were the

:24:04.:24:09.

items for which Waugh had been fought. People lived through wars,

:24:09.:24:13.

they did not -- they knew what a horrendous thing the war was. It is

:24:13.:24:22.

that that gave rise to the bowl -- to EU. Giving it Barack Obama a

:24:23.:24:31.

peace prize that he was barely one year into his presidency,... Attila

:24:31.:24:39.

the Hun and gained his card will consider themselves unlucky,

:24:39.:24:44.

looking at who else has been given it. The only people that I can

:24:44.:24:50.

think of that have got the prize who have really deserved it, people

:24:50.:25:00.
:25:00.:25:01.

like Mother Teresa, the Bangladeshi that set up the bank, and so many

:25:01.:25:05.

people from the United Nations, they have been paid to do that!

:25:05.:25:14.

pick up the point, is this the committee thinking that the EU it

:25:14.:25:24.
:25:24.:25:27.

is in trouble, so here is a fillip to say,...? We might think, this is

:25:27.:25:31.

absolutely ridiculous, like when they gave it to Barack Obama, we

:25:31.:25:37.

thought, he has only been in power for a few months. He thought it was

:25:37.:25:45.

ridiculous. But now, he has got the Nobel Prize, so perhaps he has got

:25:45.:25:55.
:25:55.:25:56.

responsibility. Look at what it did to the Chinese, yesterday, he

:25:56.:26:01.

started talking about the Chinese dissident who got the Chinese Peace

:26:01.:26:11.

Prize, saying, I hope he will be freed. Healthy counter-intuitive

:26:11.:26:16.

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