20/10/2012 Dateline London


20/10/2012

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Hello and welcome to Dateline London. This week, we are looking

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at riots in Greece, budget in Portugal, and we will be asking if

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President Obama has done enough to stay President. We will also be

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looking at the latest bombing by Syrian jets of civilian populations.

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My guests today are Yasmine Allah by Brown, Unesco has, the

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Let's go first to Europe, because another leaders' summit this week

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on the euro crisis didn't seem to get very far. Meanwhile, there have

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been strikes in Greece over their austerity measures, and the

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Portuguese have introduced what some commentators say is a

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draconian budget. Maria, let's start in Greece. Did the strike

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achieve anything? I wouldn't call it a riot. By Greek standards, this

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was a small demonstration, not a riot. People are continuing to go

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on these demonstrations because not to go would be to rollover and play

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dead, not because they hope the demonstrations themselves will

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achieve anything. There is a real feeling of despair in Greece now. I

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have said this again and again, and I always say, we have reached the

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bottom, and we never do reach the bottom. What is more worrying is

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that they have a deep political crisis. The Rise Of Golden Dawn,

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the fascist party, it has now come third in political polls, it is

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committing assaults, it is opening offices. It is against mostly

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immigrants, but also gay people, leftists. Being in Parliament has

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given it a kind of legitimacy. It has given it access to the media,

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and it has given his money. Its MPs are talking about a new kind of

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civil war. And what is the public reaction to that? There is more

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sympathy for the right than they used to be, even among people who

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used to vote left. I have been trying to understand what this is

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about. It comes from a sense that the old political parties which

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drove the country to this state are hopelessly corrupt, and they have

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basically failed. In June, people said they were voting for golden

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dawn because they wanted them in Parliament to beat the others up,

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literally. But they are also handing out food - for Greeks only

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- and they have a project for jobs for Greeks only. They have

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vigilante forces in large towns, and they are very successful at

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infiltrating parts of the police so that the police don't do anything

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about right-wing violence. If you say in Athens that your apartment

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has been squatted by Athens -- immigrants, but the police will

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give people the phone number of Golden Dawn and say, we can't do

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anything, but these people will help you. The crippled state that

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we are seeing in many countries in Europe. Is the rise of the right

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the threat now? Is really scary to hear what you are saying. Something

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similar has happened here, but not to that extreme degree. You do find

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extreme right-wing parties have gone into communities and provided

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support and so on. What I find unforgivable are two things. Europe

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has had this history, and I think it just is a sham when they keep

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saying, never again, because we have seen what happened in Bosnia,

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we have seen how they capitulate. And when the left, and it does so

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even more shamefully here, it is confronting the right and the

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extreme right, it rolls over, and then what you have is a shift. It

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is almost worse to hear a mainstream politician saying it is

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all the fault of immigrants, which happens and all of our countries,

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then to hear a member of the BNP say that, because they would say

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that, wouldn't they? But when those clothes are worn by mainstream

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politicians, the game is lost. Her Mostafa, would you agree that the

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game is lost? And there is certainly a danger of that, but let

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us remember that this is always the case in every country, every

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society. In a dire economic situation, a high rate of

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unemployment, high rate of immigrants, the extreme right

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always rises to the top. We have seen that in every culture. Look at

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the Muslim world as well, why you have the extremist Taliban in

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Afghanistan. They have taken advantage of poverty, literacy, a

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political vacuum. With the question of the rise of the right, we need

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to touch on this subject, but we need to be careful, because not all

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European countries have this threat. In the countries that have facing

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austerity, the greatest danger is not only the rise of the right, it

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is the failure of the state. What is happening in Spain, the collapse

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of the state, we have independent movements in Catalonia becoming

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very strong. The failure of the state to provide, to comply with

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its responsibility towards its citizens, is very serious, because

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it is not just the threat of the right. It is many other threats. It

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is total anarchy, social unrest, that we need to look into. Give us

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a sense of what it is like in Portugal with the introduction of

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draconian budgets. The Portuguese seemed until this point to be

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resigned to what was happening, but that has changed. It has. It has

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been three years of austerity. Since 2009, the Government has

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introduced several austerity packages. And when the government

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announced new austerity measures to be introduced in the Budget in 10

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days, to be voted in Parliament, people said, enough. It reached a

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threshold of economic pain that people can't accept. The economic

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pain, to give you an idea, is what they wrote originally proposing to

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do is to increase national insurance contributions by 8% for

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all workers. For somebody on a minimal wage, which is not even 500

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euros per month, 8% as a lot. The government was forced to backpack

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on -- backtrack on their proposals. So they will increase income tax,

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and reduce the different bands so it is less regressive. And what

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happens is that people earning up to 1,000 euros per month will pay

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23% of income tax plus 8% of national insurance, so 30% of their

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income stays in taxes. On top of that there are new other taxes, on

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property. They are paying more for energy, more for transport, health

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care now is costly. It used to be free, almost free at the cost of

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delivery. Now if you go to the doctor you have to pay, and then

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you pay more and more for all the medical procedures that you need.

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Given that list, can the government survive? I don't think so. The

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coalition is going through a very fragile period. The smaller party

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in the coalition is starting to show some disquiet. Even the main

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party, there is a lot of dissension within its ranks. Very senior

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people are complaining. So we are really talking about early

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elections as soon as next year, as soon as September 2013, when

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Germany will have its own elections. We will leave that there, because I

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want to move to the United States. Most pundits think that President

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Obama won at the second debate, but has the President done enough to

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stay in the White House? I don't know. They are really so close,

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that I think anything that is going to make a difference, though I am

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not an American, and didn't know how you change your vote on this

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basis of a single debate, I cannot think like that, but it seems to me

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that to lose the vote of women as rapidly as President Obama has done,

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it's quite extraordinary. Her wide using he has? I don't know. I found

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him very disappointing. I would think he was the least worst

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candidate if I was voting. I think some of his foreign policies,

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Guantanamo still being open, all of that is problematic. But what is

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interesting years people think that what will now make the difference

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is everyone going from home to home, using them a offence, which is what

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his camp is good at. So it will be very interesting. But I can't even

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imagine what the world will be like if Mitt Romney wins. From a

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European point of view, Maria, what will the world be like if Mitt

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Romney wins? What I would like to say is I think Obama had a real

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chance at one point to put forward an alternative to austerity

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economics. He began to do it at the beginning of his term. He did run a

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similar programme. And then they came a point where he caved and

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gave in to Wall Street and the 1%. That has been disastrous for Europe

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as well, because if we don't have an alternative to this feeling,

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Europe is in trouble. The Left has caved in on every single issue, and

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nobody is thinking about the alternative models. Let's face it,

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this model has filed the world. When the IMF was punishing for

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current -- poor countries for decades that now the Europeans are

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being punished, we didn't care. It is a bust model, and they are

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clinging to it. Merkel, Obama, the lot of them. What would a change of

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President or President Obama remaining in the White House mean?

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The campaign in the United States all the time is on internal issues,

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basically the economy. On foreign policy, nothing at all. Regardless

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of the point of view of each presidential candidate on, let's

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say, the Middle-East or Israel or any issue overseas. So it is really

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the economy at the end of the day. And why it Obama in the second

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debate has made progress is because he dealt with that issue much

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better than Ronnie. -- Mitt Romney. I think Obama is right when he says

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that Mitt Romney's plan on the economy has one point only, which

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is helping the rich, which is basically the case. I think he now

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by saying that and being aggressive, has regained, he managed to regain

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some of his popularity. He is not only attracting more women, he has

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to recapture the vote of the people who voted him into 1008. -- in the

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2008. Who created the mess? The Bush administration. The the

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Republican-controlled Congress have voted against so many of the

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measures. His coolness has been a very much praise as a great asset

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in politics, but sometimes we have the impression that he doesn't care,

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that he feels no passion, and he has to come across as somebody who

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He has a slight difficulty in that he raised such difficult hopes with

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his first election, which he to quite a large extent let down - on

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health care and some things he did do well, but also areas a situation

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where the Republicans are willing to go all the way out to the right.

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The tea-party have been very effective at grass roots. And the

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Wruck -- the Democrats have not wanted to go out to the left too

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far. The demographics are going against them. They will not be able

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to run in four years as the same Republican Party. America will be

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much more a country of colour. you think these presidential

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debates make any difference, at the end of the day? I am finding myself

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really turning against these debates now. We saw what Nick Clegg

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did with his moment of triumph. Anybody who is a good performer can

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sway opinion, and actually, and a sense it is quite dangerous,

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because a good performer can win people, and Nick Clegg could win

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people, so I think these debates, although it is seen as a great

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democratic advancement, I don't think they are. We need all of

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these guys to go to town halls and talk to people without the

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mediators. Then we might see a The situation in Syria is not

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getting any better. Is it going to get worse? It is already bad. It is

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getting worse by the day. Unfortunately, what we do not see

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and do not hero of -- here off other stories of the people every

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day you live in the countryside. The population there is suffering

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every day people stop Mrs, unfortunately, not considered to be

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important. Governments do nothing. People in Syria are desperately

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waiting for some action on this front to stop the murderous regime.

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He mentioned the bombing by Nicks. -- Nicks. They throw primitive

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bombs from the top of a building and the building collapsed on the

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population inside. The stories are not reported. It is happening on a

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daily basis. It is very difficult for journalists to get in. I do not

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agree with you that the media is not reporting. The British media

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has done its best, I think. There was a wonderful programme about the

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number of Syrians to have disappeared. What I cannot stand is

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that the Arab countries, yet again, even after the Arab Spring, are

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keeping so close to offer. As you know, I am very pro Palestinian,

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but if Israel was doing this, the whole of the Arab world would be up

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in arms about it. Why are Muslims and Arabs not standing up with the

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same rage against Syria? It is a shame on our part. Absolutely. The

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targets and the politics are totally different in Syria than

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with Arab-Israel. The war in Syria is regional and international.

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Syria is an international forum where regional powers are fighting

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over their own interests. So does the rest of the world. Turkey has

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been appealing for NATO to do something. Turkey is a very

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important member of NATO. The appeals of the Turkish government

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have fallen on deaf ears. No-one wants to hear about even creating a

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buffer zone to do with the humanitarian crisis in Syria.

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Complete silence. Was at this point can be done? You talked about it

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being a battleground for foreign forces. We have had various

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different kinds of intervention over the last 15 years. What would

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work? What needs to happen? main reason for the survival of the

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regime over what is left of its authority in the country is the

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nature of the war taking place at the moment in Syria. When Russia

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uses its veto, for example, which it has done three times during the

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crisis in seven months, which is a record, practically, it is giving

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to the regime time to go on killing. But what about the opposition? He

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was supporting the Free Syrian Army? Again, support is not enough.

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The material support, I mean, weapons, money and all that. The

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safe havens own should have been introduced a long time ago. -- the

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safe haven zone. If you want to support the opposition, the first

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step is to recognise their position with physical means. Have we seen

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any European or international figures visiting these so-called

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liberated areas? We have not seen anybody. What about the danger of

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this? What about the danger of it spreading, in the region,

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especially to Lebanon? The danger of this conflict spreading is huge.

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Turkey is very worried about the contagion effect with the Kurdish

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zone. They're worried about the Syrian refugees and what they will

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do to the Turkish Alawite groups. They are worried about the their

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own national stability. The Turkish dimension is very important.

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Lebanon is a dangerous place now. Coming back to what Mustapha said,

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I do not -- I disagree when he says it is a regional thing. We condemn

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America when America supports Israel. Why is there not any severe

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condemnation of Russia with the same loud voice? The UN has failed.

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International condemnation has failed. When people are dying, it

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does not matter what the inside argument suave -- 1/2. Arabs and

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Muslims in particular need to stand up for those people. We are not

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doing that. Maria, can I bring you in here with

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the failure of Europe? Has Europe failed? Yes, Europe is looking

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inwards to its own problems and is completely failing to be any sort

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of international force, which was part of the idea in the first place

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for the you -- for the EU. It is failing. Some sort of ceasefire or

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humanitarian help, he was going to impose that when the UN is

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powerless? Who are the international forces representing

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in the opposition? These details can be worked out if they agree on

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the principle, first of all. This conflict is spreading out because

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of the regional players who are within Syria. It is littered --

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logical to see this spreading out to other countries. What do you

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mean by that? You have Turkey, Iran, the Gulf states, they are all

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fighting their war of interest in Syria. Is that the difference

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between Syria and the other countries we saw within the Arab

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Spring? You have an uprising in Syria which starts at about 19

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months ago now. The first nine months was quite peaceful. People

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did not even demand the collapse of the regime or getting rid of it.

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Their demands were merely reform. The regime itself did not want to

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respond positively to these demands and turned the game around. Bashar

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al-Assad militarised the situation. That is his policy. He turned it to

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his advantage. He has succeeded in that so far. Eunice, what about the

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United States? I don't think they will do anything before the

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election. Everyone is afraid after failure in Libya, Afghanistan and

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Iraq, how can you persuade the American people that for an

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American intervention in Syria? This is an important question.

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European politicians need to think about how can the West to intervene

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