28/09/2013 Dateline London

Hello and welcome to Dateline. Are we at a turning point in British

politics? Al—Shabab and perhaps we at a turning point in British

new dawn in relations between Iran and the West. My guests today are an

arrest of members of Golden Dawn and the West. My guests today are an

arrest of members of Golden Dawn This is the moment that Golden Dawn

has become more of a nuisance. The This is the moment that Golden Dawn

Greek parliament. It has spread This is the moment that Golden Dawn

tentacles within society. It is This is the moment that Golden Dawn

possible to ban a political party in Greece, the government has had the

Supreme Court declared Golden Dawn party criminal organisation. This is

a hugely welcome development, but how far will this probe and purge

go? I will be surprised if we see a real purge of the police. Also,

go? I will be surprised if we see a rehabilitation of the less nasty

elements of Golden Dawn and an assimilation of the far right into

what is known as a constitutional spectrum. What do you make of the

argument, whatever you make of the people arrested, they are clearly

popular with the people who voted for them? They are. But we have

popular with the people who voted seen thousands of people turning out

There were about 250 people. Golden Dawn have done well in the polls,

the vote for them does have a hard far right corner, but a lot of that

is because they present themselves as an anti—systemic party. People

—— the main parties in Greece. Golden Dawn party Matt last week and

corruption scandals? It is to do said, if we are a criminal, what

corruption scandals? It is to do with the collapse of faith in the

political system. Ed Miliband change with the collapse of faith in the

political system. Ed Miliband change the political weather this week

froze prices. Some use the dreaded he suggested big energy companies

froze prices. Some use the dreaded word, socialism, but has Ed Miliband

tapped into something quite subtle? An acceptance you cannot change

tapped into something quite subtle? market, but you can perhaps regulate

the 1970s, it will be a disaster and it. How do you see this? Some people

the 1970s, it will be a disaster and you cannot make it work. In the

1970s it was the idea of the trade unions were really running things,

nobody is suggesting nationalising the energy companies or any of the

big, dysfunctional bits of the market. Quite the opposite. Breaking

them up to make competition more healthy. There has been such a mood

against big, international corporate organisations which do not belong in

any one company, do not pay taxes, do not have any social obligations

in the country they are based. Labour had said we think subsidies

should go to the small businesses. We should regulate much more firmly

these out—of—control corporations, the Public accounts committee has

exposed time and time again what these corporations are up to. It is

temporary freeze while they set dysfunctional cartel of companies

and forcing them to break up so dysfunctional cartel of companies

are not generating energy, selling it to themselves at secret prices

and no one can really see what their profits are. They have declared

profits of 4 billion a year at a time when people's energy bills

profits of 4 billion a year at a gone up. There is an idea behind it.

It is certainly, with many people, spectrum people realise energy bills

are too high. Something needs to give. Ed Miliband has discovered and

dropping below what is acceptable. the standard of living sinking and

dropping below what is acceptable. He is seen as a champion for the

to think how can we control this He is seen as a champion for the

be rattled about it. The reaction of be rattled about it. The reaction of

Secretary of Education admitted be rattled about it. The reaction of

would take these reactions with be rattled about it. The reaction of

temporary freeze, where we would continue with this inexorable rise

of cost of living and not seem to be on the side of those who are hurting

populist, it is popular. It made me was Ronald Reagan, are you better

Theodore Roosevelt taking on the big trusts, the manufacturers of big

wealth. That is a very popular thing to do in this country, given the

failure of the banks and the other big countries —— companies which do

not seem to be paying tax. There is a lot of political rhetoric which

can be made here. Occupy Wall Street was a big phenomenon. In addition to

those American politicians, the was a big phenomenon. In addition to

who just won the primary to be mayor successful under Mayor Bloomberg.

All of the benefits have not gone to am looking after the little guys. I

am looking at minimum wage for people in New York, I'm going to

romped home in the New York primary. People are looking at him as a

harbinger of where politics may People are looking at him as a

been since 2009 have gone virtually The benefits of the growth there has

been since 2009 have gone virtually to the top 1% in the US. 30% have

in this country as well with the to the top 1% in the US. 30% have

in this country as well with the banks being very unpopular. There is

something which can be done with targeted populism by the Labour

Party. The Tories are meeting for their conference from now and they

have been living —— hearing a lot this morning about the marriage

have been living —— hearing a lot I thought the key moment in Ed

Miliband's speech was the moment he globalisation which has been the

real issue for the left. He said David Cameron talks about a global

race, but we cannot win a race to the bottom. He followed it up with

what sounded like policy tinkering when I first listened, but actually

quite radical suggestions about regulating the markets, resetting

the markets in a different way. Reporting wages here, things that

will make a difference. You're on your way to Manchester for the

Conservative party conference. Presumably there will be a lot of

interesting rabbit pulled out of he not, the recovery is happening?

Hold on, this is not the try to he not, the recovery is happening?

—— time to change courses. The economy has started to kick upwards.

While Labour can say that was three wasted years, and you get writers in

the Financial Times saying the same inherited. That is quite difficult

to put across to an electorate. inherited. That is quite difficult

they see the economy grow, probably quite fast next year, when you have

been in that big debt you can't quite fast next year, when you have

quite a jump upwards. That will quite fast next year, when you have

election. Can Labour persuade the responsible and will produce a more

Against David Cameron saying, they responsible kind of capitalism.

truth about the economy has not are the ones who crashed the car in

the effect of the economy growing. filtered down to a huge number

the effect of the economy growing. Not enough people have felt it.

the effect of the economy growing. cost of living has outpaced anything

the growing economy might provide so far. Saying the economy is growing

while the rest of the company is still —— country is still suffering.

A couple of conservative columnists have suggested the question for

David Cameron is, does he position the party to take on UKIP, be seen

to move to the right, or can he the party to take on UKIP, be seen

a Ed Miliband and socialism as a move to the left and try and occupy

the centre ground? He must make move to the left and try and occupy

clear. I think his threat is from UKIP. I do not see it any other

clear. I think his threat is from That is who has been meet —— making

the Tories nervous for the last year. And it is the party that could

cost them seats. Exactly. He will try to occupy as much of the centre

as possible while also holding off UKIP, using immigration and the

traditional ways that people know to mollify the right. UKIP probably

If people feel it, that growth is will not be mollified very easily.

If people feel it, that growth is happening, then they may defeat

UKIP. It is not about left and right, it is about right and wrong

yesterday's dichotomy. This is what right, it is about right and wrong

of men, within and children in a terrorism look like on the 21st

of men, within and children in a shopping centre. Is the Al—Shabab

attack in Kenya to be seen as a shopping centre. Is the Al—Shabab

terrorists who know their cause shopping centre. Is the Al—Shabab

pointless? Clearly Al—Qaeda and this in the end just utterly futile?

Before I am drawn into what it all means, I am looking at the failure

They know they are in neighbouring reluctant to pronounce a larger

meaning to what Al—Shabab means reluctant to pronounce a larger

the rest of the world. Some people say they are desperate and are

losing in Somalia. That is why they neighbouring countries, which makes

it more important for Kenya to be on watch. I do not think it means a

larger threat to the west, but I am surprised this attack had a soft ——

consumers congregate. I am surprised it has not happened in London,

perhaps it is due to security forces here, but it is a reminder we have

to be on the lookout for a likely event. Obviously security was not

adequate security in every soft target like a shopping centre? It

was not just any shopping centre, it Nairobi. As we all know, terrorism

is a horrible theatre. It is a way Nairobi. As we all know, terrorism

is a horrible theatre. It is a way we can do. And whatever carnage

is a horrible theatre. It is a way call —— whatever carnage we call,

the world can be terrified by it. Are there implications in terms

lessons to be drawn when you have Are there implications in terms

lessons to be drawn when you have got the president of the United

lessons to be drawn when you have in retreat and defeat of all? The

original Al—Qaeda may be in retreat, and many of its leaders have been

killed, the drones and intelligence have done a number on them. The

ideology is easily spread with modern technology. The techniques

are to get correct —— grenades, modern technology. The techniques

and explosives, and it is not that hard to do. I think the problem

and explosives, and it is not that two fall. Maybe threefold. There is

an ideological war which —— where Muslims must figure out what they

want to do about Islam. Then there is capacity building in states

like... Young men are unemployed, and then there is a very complex

security operation where you have to go through all of the tapes, all the

fingerprints and try to find out who did this and who they are connected

to. The NSA have been very good did this and who they are connected

doing this in the West. I talked to years has been the efficiency of

difference for them in the last years has been the efficiency of

making the connections and peeling years has been the efficiency of

These people are telling me what they think is the truth. There is no

doubt that the way terrorism is prevented is through exactly the

kind of intelligence work, but that what's more, we could look at all of

There is a lot of popular support your e—mails and phone calls. We

There is a lot of popular support for the idea of a reasonable amount

of surveillance where there is reasonable risk, but that does not

population. I think they have gone too far as well, but they are mostly

looking at connections of phone numbers. Nevertheless, it is a

dangerous thing. What is really important is that the war on terror

does not get itself up and going again. These are out to expect we

will have to live with, like small episodes of the plague. They will

not wipe out nations. They are horrible and graphic, and as you

say, they are theatrical, but the approach. In Britain, we know most

about this, because we lived for many years with relatively low level

terrorism from the IRA and we made beginning and locked up a lot of

people without trial and broke all the civil rights ASIC rules so that

we —— basic rules so that we lost the moral high ground. Never do

that, that is very important. And in the end, both they and we got weary.

What would you speed to them about? That is formed within the world

What would you speed to them about? eight —— is land. This is utopian

madness, where they want to wipe out West in the serialism. There is

madness, where they want to wipe out way that the people of these Islamic

of it, not less! The war on terror countries want that. They want more

of it, not less! The war on terror has also had a negative effect in

Somalia, by cutting off aid. We organisations, and although Somalia

to look at the other end of it, organisations, and although Somalia

now has a government, and yes, Al—Shabab has been driven out of

encouraging that situation. For Al—Shabab has been driven out of

than 30 years, Western countries have been trying to work out what to

Now the new Iranians president says he hopes to reach an agreement about

his country's relationship with he hopes to reach an agreement about

cannot run the eight —— I cannot remember a telephone compensation ——

conversation that has had such an impact! What is not to like? I was

moving my desk this week and I found a talk that I had given on US and

Iranian relations in 2004. I thought I could probably pull this out

today! Ingredients for a bargain between the US and Iran have been

evident for a long time. There has to be something to do with the

nuclear problem and some completion on Iran and the world. What may

nuclear problem and some completion the difference this time and might

be producing some reality here is that the sanctions have really

eating into Iranians I and people know it and there is pressure to do

something about it. We have had know it and there is pressure to do

nice looking president come to the West End have the rug pulled out of

thin —— pulled out from under him before. The nuclear programme is

still run by the Revolutionary guards. Very complex politics inside

Iran, as we all know. It is looks like something is happening here.

Ireland analogy, people can always like something is happening here.

Ireland analogy, people can always say, you are not manly enough when

you are trying to make peace, and there are lots of slips that could

happen here. But I would say that the stars seem to be aligning in a

way that is helpful. The other thing that is obvious from your 2004

talk, or even before, is that it is obviously in the interests of Iran

but the elephant in the room here is obviously in the interests of Iran

but the elephant in the room here is Israel, which has had a neither

confirm nor deny policy about its question, because if there is an

agreement, there will be pressure on Israel. Hassan Rohani talked about a

regional policy, and there will Israel. Hassan Rohani talked about a

inspectors in itself and come clean about it. I am open to correction,

but as I understand it, the Israeli policy has always been not to talk

about it, but also peace with the prerequisite of thinking about what

armaments we have. And peace with the neighbours looks pretty remote!

It does look remote, but if we are policy, including chemical and is,

important, then how long can Israel stand outside that? I am optimistic

for one reason, because the supreme leader in Iran gave a speech earlier

phrase, heretic flexibility. Iran has to employ heroine flexibility.

This is a wonderful fantasy! —— heroine flexibility. They need to

recognise the existence of Israel. Unless the neighbouring countries in

the Middle East recognise Israel as Unless the neighbouring countries in

the Middle East recognise Israel as lead nowhere. You have to really go

that they were invaded by a rack and lead nowhere. You have to really go

that they were invaded by a rack and We forget those things very easily.

Those days are gone and we wipe We forget those things very easily.

out from our memory, that they are left with the scars. News programmes

talk about terrible things happening all over the place, and once in

awhile, let's today celebrated and try and make sure that the West

doesn't miss this chance. Is —— shows some heroic flexibility! You

get moments like Tahrir Square or the fall of the Berlin Wall. It

get moments like Tahrir Square or not mean everything will be easy

afterwards, but there are moments where you can hope. Flexibility

afterwards, but there are moments words as well, as Hassan Rohani

called the US the big nation rather than the big Satan! We need to break

down sanctions so that his people can see wealth flowing. That this

demand X —— flexibility, given that Obama has lobbying groups in the

United States. Rain there are groups who will want him to fail, as they

want his domestic policies to fail but some sanctions would require

others he can do with executive congressional approval to lift,

ingredients are to make a deal over action. You can do quite a bit and

ingredients are to make a deal over nuclear arms. And let's market in

Polly's terms, it is breathtaking what has happened in just one week,

given that nothing has happened what has happened in just one week,

34 years. No, he is not Gorbachev, he is not a powerful signal ——

favourite candidate for president. he is not a powerful signal ——

favourite candidate for president. We have to wait and be careful and

maybe things would go right, but programme! Thank you all very much.

Twitter. Thank you for watching