Browse content similar to 26/04/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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I will be back with a full bulletin at the top of the hour. | :00:00. | :00:22. | |
Hello and welcome to Dateline London. | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
Russia wants to start World War Three ` according to Ukraine's prime | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
minister. What is going on in Eastern Ukraine? The Palestinians | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
move towards reconciliation with each other ` but not with Israel. | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
And Tony Blair appears to want a coalition of the willing to take on | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
militant Islam. Will he get it? My guests today are: Polly Toynbee | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
of the Guardian. Abdel Bari Atwan, who is an Arab writer and | :00:46. | :00:47. | |
journalist. Saul Zadka, of Arise News Television Alexander Nekrassov, | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
who is a Russian journalist and former Kremlin adviser. | :00:51. | :00:58. | |
A week or so after the hopeful news from Geneva that all sides want the | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
Ukraine crisis solved peacefully we have had a series of flash`points on | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
the ground ` a stiffening of resolve from Western powers against Russia ` | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
the threat of more sanctions ` more Russian troop manoeuvres ` and an | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
increase of rhetoric including the idea that Russia might be pushing us | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
towards World War Three. Is Russia trying to eat away at Ukraine bit by | :01:17. | :01:34. | |
bit? Russia does not really need Eastern Ukraine. That would be | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
expensive for Russia. The problem is that when we hear the Prime Minister | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
seeing that Russia wants to start world War three, that tells me that | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
the TF regime is desperate. The reason it is desperate is because it | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
was expecting a lot of money from the West to come immediately and | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
that is not coming. If you remember, the previous deal, Russia offered | :01:57. | :02:04. | |
$15 million to Ukraine. That was on the table. Now we have Joe Biden | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
coming over and saying, I brought you 50 million to fight corruption. | :02:10. | :02:18. | |
But it is not really exciting. I am interested in how you are | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
framing this. You're framing this in business monetary terms. Or do you | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
see it as something to do with national identity? Or as people in | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
the West are saying, this is subversion by Russia to try to grab | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
land? You don't think it's Russia's interests to do that? | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
The problem is that when this violent overthrow the regime | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
happened in February, and it was a regime accepted by the European | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
Union as democratically elected, we must remember that, I think a lot of | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
things have changed in Ukraine in practically one day. I think that | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
all those suspicions that we had for centuries there suddenly came up and | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
manifested themselves. It is difficult to control the situation | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
in Ukraine at the moment. I personally do not see any point or | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
any hope of any diplomatic solution at the moment. When the Geneva talks | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
happened, it was obvious it would not deliver anything, simply because | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
the eastern part of Ukraine was not represented there. That was a key | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
point. They had to have somebody representing the east. And Russia | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
was supposed to represent the east and it did not work. I think we | :03:37. | :03:44. | |
might see another Serie A in the eastern Ukraine. There are a lot of | :03:45. | :03:53. | |
grievances there. I visited Latvia and met officials there. They were | :03:54. | :04:00. | |
scared because there is a sizeable Russian minority there. It is | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
completely isolated. It is separated from the whole of society. They have | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
their own newspaper, their own schools, their own clubs. They do | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
not mix. They are not participating in the Government. I believe the | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
same thing is existing now in the east of Ukraine. If the situation | :04:22. | :04:33. | |
continues, with the Russians using this as an excuse, I think we may | :04:34. | :04:42. | |
see another Syria. This makes me think of another | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
Balkans. The unfitting of hundreds of years of history. And people who | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
have been mixed up for various reasons. A great danger. All of | :04:53. | :05:01. | |
those countries surrounding Russia could see the same kinds of problems | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
erupt. But what is difficult for Europe and America to understand, is | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
the extent to which this is really popular in Russia. This huge | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
popularity for President Putin. Usually, nationalism is something | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
for the lower classes. But this is involving the educated classes. On | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
the other hand, he is punching above his weight economic law. It is a | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
country with the same economic power as Italy. Only sanctions can he | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
take? On the other hand, is Europe really willing to turn the screw on | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
sanctions? 's I spoke to an American diplomat and he said that America | :05:45. | :05:53. | |
was prepared to cut off the banking system of Russia. He said that | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
Europeans will have to all online because they will have a choice, to | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
do business with the United States ought to do business with Russia. If | :06:01. | :06:09. | |
it comes to that. It is not entirely clear to me. You | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
have to remember about the energy that comes from Russia. To what | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
extent will the Germans and others dare to turn off that tap? We have | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
had threats from Russia, to turn off the energy supply to Kiev unless | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
they pay enormous amounts of money. I think Europe is a very weak | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
position. The G7 says we will have sanctions but also say we are going | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
to do different things in our own way. I am not sure it will be a | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
united front. I can see a direct link between what | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
was happening in Syria and what is happening in Crimea. When putting | :06:53. | :07:05. | |
smells wickedness... That is what was happening. Everybody could see | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
that Albarn mattered not live up to his promises. Eventually, the saga | :07:10. | :07:20. | |
was summed up as Syria being abandoned to its own devices. And | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
that is what is happening now in Syria. This is a part of Ukraine has | :07:25. | :07:38. | |
been neglected. I agree with putting that the Government was | :07:39. | :07:40. | |
illegitimate. There will be elections in May... | :07:41. | :07:51. | |
Of course. But it seems to me that the bullying exercise of the | :07:52. | :08:02. | |
Russians are designed to create a kind of federated region of Eastern | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
Ukraine. Another thing that came out when I | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
was speaking to our correspondent in Eastern Ukraine, he said that you | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
have no idea the resentment against the EU and NATO that many Russians | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
have. And the feeling that people in the West are moving the boundaries | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
and are actually under threat. Is that one of the reasons why this has | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
been so popular for Vladimir Putin? The whole point of the end of the | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
Cold War was an understanding that needle would not spread eastwards. | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
That was not written down in stone. But it was understood. | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
Unfortunately, needle started to move eastwards. That was the main | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
reason why many people in Russia think that the Cold War is still | :08:50. | :08:59. | |
there. `` NATO. President Obama has criticised what you put in, and | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
every time he does, putting's popularity goes up! | :09:06. | :09:13. | |
We will leave it there. Among the Palestinian people, the | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
dislike ` even at times hatred ` between members of Hamas and Fatah | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
has never been hidden. But this week a new agreement between the two | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
factions is an attempt at creating a unified Palestinian voice not really | :09:24. | :09:25. | |
seen since the death of Yasser Arafat. Israel's prime minister | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
however says he will never engage in talks with any Government including | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
Hamas. So ` where are we now? It has been said repeatedly that Israel in | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
the past accused the Palestinians and now they are moving together. | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
But Israel is accusing them of having him asking the Government and | :09:44. | :09:58. | |
will not deal with them. `` Armas. This condition was never made | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
explicit. Everybody understood that it will be a three state solution if | :10:06. | :10:17. | |
Armas is excluded from these talks. `` Hamas. Israel could not live with | :10:18. | :10:37. | |
the Charter of Hamas. It would not recognise previous agreements that | :10:38. | :10:45. | |
had been signed with Fatah. It may be that the Israelis will say that | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
it is OK if Armas is committed to the international community. | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
However, I think this alliance has been born out of convenience. | :10:56. | :11:04. | |
Because Armas is controlling towards the authorities. It has been broken | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
in the past by Egypt. Armas lost its power base in Egypt. | :11:12. | :11:21. | |
The Muslim Brotherhood. They also lost Syria. And Iran. In a | :11:22. | :11:29. | |
way, how mass are in a weak position. This seems to be a | :11:30. | :11:38. | |
marriage of convenience with Fatah. Do you think Armas will have to | :11:39. | :11:53. | |
change? Hamas is saying to a bass that you read this Government and | :11:54. | :12:02. | |
this Government is not something they are part of. It is mainly | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
independent people who will be members of this Government. But | :12:10. | :12:17. | |
President Mahmoud Abbas is or was attacked and hated. He went to the | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
negotiating table without any implementation of his condition to | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
freeze the settlement. He signed agreements that they would release | :12:28. | :12:29. | |
is really prisoners and they never did. The two state solution | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
collapsed completely. In the 21st century, Hamas are being asked to | :12:37. | :12:55. | |
recognise and Israeli state. They say that the president does not | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
represent all Palestinians. They are bringing in Gaza and going to | :13:03. | :13:11. | |
negotiation. Either to choose us to choose Hamas. But he will be the | :13:12. | :13:21. | |
leader of this new Government. He prevented any attacks against the | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
Israelis against the West Bank. What can we do? I don't know. | :13:27. | :13:36. | |
I think the rest of the world looks on this with a kind of despair. | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
Yesterday, President Obama said that we cannot make further progress | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
because there is no will for peace on either side. That is what we | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
hear. Both sides in the end Professor to stand apart. Every | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
American president comes in and says that we can fix this. The go in and | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
think that they can fix this. But this seems in solvable because there | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
are such an entrenched Will not to make peace on both sides. It is | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
deeply dispiriting for everybody who stands outside and the rest of the | :14:14. | :14:15. | |
world, which is profoundly affected by this. John Kerry, in his speech | :14:16. | :14:35. | |
to the Congress, said that they have put obstacles in front of the peace | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
process. On one side, missiles going into | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
Israel and on the other, more settlements. It is beyond, mention | :14:43. | :14:49. | |
how any country with any commitment to peace can go on creating | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
settlements. That is interesting. I spoke to an | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
Israeli this week and he said that the EU and the United States and | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
Hamas, it is a terrorist organisation, as he said. He won't | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
listen to anyone on the settlement question. There is the settlement | :15:08. | :15:25. | |
issue. But also, other issues, like trying to get independence through | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
the United Nations. They have released many prisoners. So it is | :15:29. | :15:37. | |
not accurate what you have said. The Israelis and the Palestinians are | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
willing but they are not willing to make sacrifices. America is not the | :15:43. | :16:00. | |
best country to be the middleman. It is so distrusted in the Middle East. | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
While with they be trusted by anyone in this particular conflict? `` why | :16:05. | :16:14. | |
would they be trusted? Tony Blair could help. I do not think so. The | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
point is this, America seem to be thinking if they are launching a | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
peace process, both sides will suddenly find a will to find the | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
solution and it never happens and nether world. When Barack Obama and | :16:29. | :16:36. | |
John Kerry launched the initiative, everyone was asking why, when you | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
have Libya out of control, you have Syria, this and that and it wrong, | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
why did they do that this time? They knew nothing would come out of it. | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
Do you agree with that? There was great scepticism about why this was | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
being launched. Some people said it was bought domestic considerations. | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
It has been launched by an obsessive commitment of John Kerry who took it | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
almost as a personal crusade. At one point, it looked as if they were | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
going somewhere. They were on the verge of deciding, or discussing, | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
the issue of borders with Palestinians. I think this alliance | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
will not last long because the level of hatred between the two factions | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
is so big that, eventually, everything will collapse. We can see | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
already cracks in the Alliance and by her mass who keeps saying we will | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
not recognise Israel anyway. Do you think that is true? Why the | :17:40. | :17:47. | |
division? He wanted to pursue the peace process. He was hoping it | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
would end with independent Palestine. He has tried to do this | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
for the last 20 years and without success. Her mass was saying, you | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
would not reach any agreement with the Israelis. `` Hamas. The Israelis | :18:06. | :18:22. | |
block everything. 2 million people do not have electricity or medicine. | :18:23. | :18:33. | |
It is inhuman. Why does the international community stay silent | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
about the torture of 2 million people? Israel is saying no. Her | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
mass should not make a reconciliation with a bass. `` | :18:42. | :18:50. | |
Hamas. They are not human. They are not treated as humans. Why are they | :18:51. | :19:01. | |
imposing sanctions on them? Now that Hamas is so much we can because it | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
no longer has the alliance with the Muslim brotherhood, they are | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
suffering even worse hardship. Isn't this the time when Israel should | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
say, right, uniting the two sides, the Palestinian science, this is a | :19:14. | :19:22. | |
time we could move forward? `` the Palestinian sides. Does it really | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
mean never? Of course not. You may be right in principle if Hamas does | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
change its course. The people of Gaza are fed up with Hamas policy | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
based on the issue of the armed struggle which is taking us nowhere. | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
It is probably to do as much with the Palestinians in Gaza and | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
Israel. Because of Israeli sanctions. Israel are imposing | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
sanctions on them. In Britain this week, Muslim parents have been asked | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
by the police to talk to their children about the dangers of going | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
to Syria, even to offer humanitarian assistance. They may be sucked in to | :20:11. | :20:19. | |
the most extreme Islamist competence. It comes as Tony Blair | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
suggests the West should cooperate with Russia and others in common | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
cause against the threat. What do you make of the intervention by Tony | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
Blair? Utterly bizarre. He is the last person who should be making an | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
intervention. If you think about his failed wars in Iraq and Afghanistan | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
have helped to Stoke so much Islamist extremism... Something that | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
the wheel United services Institute said very publicly this week. There | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
was no question about that. That was from a very interesting source. | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
Absolutely. It is accepted this has been a huge star of the Islamist | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
cause. I suppose Tony Blair himself, an interesting character, | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
as reached such a point where he can never, ever admit this huge mistake | :21:09. | :21:16. | |
he has made. It is impossible. When you started these disastrous wars, | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
you cannot say, sorry, I think I got that wrong. In a sense, like a bad | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
gambler, you have to double the States. He is raising the stakes | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
again. He wants a world war against Islamist. It makes no sense. On the | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
one hand he says, we should have gone in and bought in Syria. We | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
should have gone in there. There is an Islamist led rebellion going on. | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
On the other hand he is saying that Russia should come in and help the | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
anti`Islamic cause. He does not seem to understand the complexity of the | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
world. We know from these programmes, all world relationships | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
are very complicated. Tony Blair likes to see everything in black and | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
white. Many years ago as the Cold War wound down, a retired Russian | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
general in Moscow said, there will come a time when people in NATO and | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
emotion will have to take on extreme Islam. Does any of this chime with | :22:17. | :22:25. | |
Russia or does it seem silly? During the first Chechen war, Russian | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
intelligence was telling Western intelligence there were | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
international element involved in the Chechen resistance. This was a | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
network building already. Everybody took it without the concern they | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
should. Then Al`Qaeda suddenly sprang out. The Russians knew about | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
it long before it was accepted in the West as a big threat. The | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
problem with Tony Blair is he may say something that makes sense but | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
because he says it, nobody takes it seriously, or dislikes it at once. | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
The problem is that the Islamic terrorists will have access to | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
nuclear weapons and materials. Look at Ukraine! There are several | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
nuclear power stations which are barely protected at the moment. | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
There is Chernobyl. They will get access to these materials and do a | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
dirty bomb or something. This is a serious threat at the moment. This | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
is the month of Islam phobia in Britain. First we had Michael Gove | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
actually launching a campaign against Muslim schools and the | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
people in this country. Secondly, David Cameron saying that | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
Christianity is the fate of this country and 50% of this country | :23:43. | :23:54. | |
believe in it. Now he Tony Blair is saying Islamic fundamentalism is a | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
threat to peace in the world. Who encouraged Islamic fundamentalism? | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
It is Tony Blair, George Bush and the Americans. Tony Blair is siding | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
with dictators. He is saying, even sign a deal with President Assad if | :24:09. | :24:16. | |
he stays in power. What about the countries that bought against | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
fundamentalism? Syria was a secular state. They are saying, no, it is | :24:23. | :24:34. | |
Islam fundamentalism which is the enemy or the threat to state | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
ability. `` stability. How can we believe him? Tony Blair said, the | :24:41. | :24:49. | |
get Crimea and eastern Ukraine. `` forget. He also said, forget | :24:50. | :24:59. | |
President Assad and let him remain in power. He brings pragmatism to a | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
new level. Maybe he is not the right one to say something like that. | :25:05. | :25:11. | |
Isn't that the point? President Assad is not going anywhere and | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
Crimea is not going to come a partner of Ukraine any time soon. In | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
terms of realities on the ground, he has got that right. I do not think | :25:19. | :25:26. | |
Tony Blair is a pragmatist. He sees things in ideological terms. He has | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
now decided that Islamist is a movement is the great enemy. It has | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
great perils. All Western countries feel bad. They feel the potential of | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
young people within their own midst who are tempted by a global movement | :25:40. | :25:47. | |
that attracts them. Young teenagers who are perhaps uncertain of their | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
own identities, second generation. They can be a real threat. | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
Nevertheless, it is this oversimplification of Tony Blair, | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
thinking everything can be resolved. Somehow thinking he is the man to do | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
it as well. That is extraordinary. This man hates Muslims. He wants a | :26:08. | :26:16. | |
war against Islam. We will have to leave it there. We are back next | :26:17. | :26:18. | |
week at the same time. Goodbye. Good morning. The weather is not | :26:19. | :26:50. | |
looking too promising for the weekend. We will be dominated by a | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
slow`moving area of low pressure. You can see this: Which is wrapped | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
around the low pressure. This cloud is producing some rain. Following on | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
from that, there will | :27:06. | :27:07. |