09/08/2014 Dateline London


09/08/2014

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Hello and welcome to Dateline London.

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It has been an unremittingly gloomy week. What President Obama

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suggested might be genocide in Iraq, the continuing conflict in Gaza,

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and the West African health emergency caused by Ebola.

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My guests, who will struggle to be cheerful in all this, are

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John Fisher Burns of the New York Times, Nabila Ramdani, who

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Saul Zadka of Arise TV and Alex Deane

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Iraq first ` and a distinguished professor of Middle East studies in

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London described the fighters of the Islamic State formerly known as ISIS

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as not so much Islamist as "evilist" ` filled with hatred for anyone,

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Muslim, Christian or otherwise ` who does not fit in with their extremist

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Is the United States ` and its allies ` inevitably going to have

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to deal with the IS threat which is already causing a humanitarian

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It is already dealing with it, in a way. This is the purported reason

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for the US going in, one reason for going into Iraq was purportedly to

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deny oxygen and space to groups like Al`Qaeda. And now we have a group

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which is more brutal than Al`Qaeda, we suspect, controlling large parts

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of Iraq, and trawling the US and the UK back into a conflict that we

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thought we had bid farewell to. `` drawing the US and the UK back in.

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My thought is, while the present conditions seem to our guru

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overwhelmingly for the use of air power, the question must be asked,

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where will it end, if we are going to do this in respect of the yet

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easy people, the Christian minority, and the Kurdish people, what are we

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going to do when the threat arrives at the gate of Baghdad? A government

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that the United States clearly has very little confidence in. It seems

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to me that the Iranians will step in, and confront the Islamic State.

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It is a terrible mess, and of course raises again the question of, how

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carefully did we consider the consequences of the invasion of Iraq

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in 23? Do you broadly agree that this has its roots in getting rid of

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Saddam Hussein, he hasn't got many friends and was a terrible man, is

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this the consequence of it, or not thinking through what would follow

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when he got rid of a dictator? Yes, absolutely. I think we can safely

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say that this kind of policy and taken by President Obama, which

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seems to be an ethical form of policy undertaken by a Western

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power, and let's be honest, it contrasts sharply with many foreign

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policy disasters, of which there have been plenty in the last two

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years, not least Iraq, so it's a matter of the US going back and

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sorting out the mess that it effectively created. There was no

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ISIS before the US`led invasion of Iraq in 23. But I think this

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American offensive action is hugely significant, not least of all

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because it is the first since they withdrew in 2011 but because we are

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again watching America in its role as a superpower, as the world

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policeman and the precision bombings we have seen so far have proved to

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be quite successful and they will continue, and meanwhile we have this

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huge managerial crisis to help those Christian communities, and the UCD

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people in particular, and this is all designed to prevent a potential

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genocide. Let's be honest, there does seem to be support for

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President Obama in Congress and in most countries. If you take one step

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back you could say it is fundamentally incoherent. A year

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ago, the American government was talking about bombing President

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Assad. Now they are bombing the people trying to get rid of him. We

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have a president who made his entire career of running the presidency

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based on the fact that he opposed the war in Iraq. And now, very

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reluctantly, he's been drawn into it, and as John says, we cannot see

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an end. What is the way out? Once you begin bombing for humanitarian

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reasons. Don't be too impressed by what he did yesterday. A view

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bombs, getting rid of the silly battery belonging to ISIS is not

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going to do the trick. This man in the White House thinking he's the

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American president, oblivious to the fact that whether he likes it or not

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he is the leader of the free world, somebody whose imagination does not

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stretch beyond Washington, DC could have solved the problem Mac back in

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January, when ISIS took over Fallujah, Andrew Mahdi, and instead,

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he was reluctant to intervene. He could have solved it simply by

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bombing this specific position that ISIS took in a generally in Fallujah

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and the province. He did not. Then ISIS, two months ago, took over the

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second largest city in Iraq, Mosul. He did not do anything about it. And

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then one month later, he didn't do anything to help the Christian

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people there. They expose the Kurdish people and he did nothing.

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Now that we are facing a genocide because the years the deep people

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are going to be obliterated by the ISIS, only now is the doing

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something which also could be regarded as very unsatisfactory, too

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little, too late. It reminded me of President Clinton and his two token

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bombshells on positions of Al`Qaeda in Sudan, on the eve of some are

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better lard and moving to Afghanistan and after that she

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brought on himself the September the 11th disaster. President Obama is

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reluctant to do anything beyond what he wants to do. I agree and it seems

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that there are parallels to be drawn with the former Yugoslavia. Because

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when the West sought to impose peace by air power, those on the ground,

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who were conducting ethnic cleansing, thought we need to beat

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up our ethnic cleansing and persecution to deal with this before

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the International committee really commits. This clearly cannot be

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solved by air power. You cannot police the situation from 10,000

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feet above, nor can you meaningfully help individuals. The Casey referred

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to in Bosnia, where I spent a good deal of time, was a case where air

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power did work. `` the case that you refer to. It was three years too

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late, when the USA and leashed its navy and its teams over Bosnia, the

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insurgency, to call it that, collapsed very quickly. And they

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rushed to get abuse agreement. The situation is different here to fly

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Mac I see a great irony, I think that would be the polite word, in

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the shifting positions of those who condemned the United States for

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going into Iraq when one of its reasons, let's not forget, beyond

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weapons of mass destruction, was to enter the murderous tyranny of

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Saddam Hussein. And there were many people, many calling themselves

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liberals, who condemned President Bush absolutely for that, and have

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been judged largely right as a result of the consequences. `` it

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was to end the tyranny. Many of those same people are now asking,

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where it is the USA, with the leadership, with the bombing? As

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Colin Powell says, if you break it, you own it. Isn't the root of the

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problem that the exercise of so`called democracy in Iraq has been

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a failure, what we have is an incompetent sectarian government in

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Baghdad which cannot possibly control the country. The country of

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Iraq has ceased to exist. Very much so. We had a very weak American

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government, doing nothing to encourage more inclusiveness in

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Nouri al`Maliki's government which encourages the persecution of

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different groups and the Obama administration did nothing to

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support a fairer government. Some people would argue that this latest

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action is designed to protect America's own interests. And their

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personnel. Heap does have personnel and that you could also say that is

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for domestic political reasons. I spent hours in Baghdad with American

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ambassadors, secretaries of State, looking to sit up a table with Nouri

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al`Maliki and tried to argue with him to broaden his government

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because otherwise no amount of American military effort was going

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to save Iraq. There had to be a political reconciliation. He refused

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it and went on refusing, American troops left, he became even more

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sectarian. Propping him up all the time. They could have got rid of him

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and they were in a position to do that. In a war for democracy... Is

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not the exercise of democracy, it has not exercise in Iraq, that's the

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floor. To have an impact on the domestic political arena they should

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have found a replacement from Nouri al`Maliki. Is the only other source

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of security who could really run the place, that's investment, and that

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is collapsing as well in the face of the current crisis. The FT has

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reported this weekend that Exxon Mobil, Chevron, they are pulling

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nonessential personnel out. As soon as that kind of business, it's

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already a broken country, as soon as that kind of business, oil and

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extractive industries, Stubbs, there's no way to run it internally

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with a proper funding stream anyway. Both sides collapsing, the democracy

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and any kind of business ability. A recipe for disaster. At the very

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least you would have to say about the bombings yesterday that the USA

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and the UK might have two reimpose a no`fly zone. `` they might have to

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do that. As they were doing until 2003. But they will be doing it on

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the ground, from little streets. Remember, the no`fly zone through

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the 1990s into the early part of this decade was designed to prevent

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Saddam Hussein moving his troops forward into cities like Irbil. I

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think the reason why there is support this time for America

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intervening is that ISIS is so spectacularly cruel and wicked that

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even Al`Qaeda has disowned them and they are literally tearing to pieces

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every when they perceive as an enemy. Which is everybody except

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them. Only about 7500 people in Iraqi territories. They could be

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Freddy Eastwood the other come, and we don't do it. `` they would be

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very easily overcome. The USA has a lot of responsibility in Iraq. Where

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other European allies? They don't want to do that. The British are

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just paying lip service. They don't want to intervene. They will be

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happy to provide humanitarian aid but it is left to the Americans to

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do the job. ISIS, dare I say, has Hollywood villain stamped all over

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them. This is just the kind of simplistic policy presentation

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designed for mid`America. It fits perfectly into it and this is why

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Obama is enjoying support at home. Let's move on. Even the optimists in

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the Middle East never talked about peace in Gaza, merely a cease`fire

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but there were hopes that exhaustion on both sides might lead to the

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realisation that nobody could stick a military victory. When we are

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apparently just one rocket away from even more deaths, where are we now

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in this jazz game between Israel and the Palestinians? Yesterday, the

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hostilities resume. If you read the British media you would imagine both

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sides had started shooting each other. This was not the case. Hamas

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did not want to continue the talks in Cairo simply because 72 hours of

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a cease`fire was enough for them. They want achievements, meaning

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lifting the siege, opening a new seaport, and giving them tremendous

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concessions, rewarding them for what has happened. I don't want to repeat

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all the cliches about the position of Hamas, and its missile launchers,

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it's enough for me to say that when we talk about ISIS, Hamas is all the

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way with ISIS, every inch of the way, except on one point, is as Mike

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has established its caliphate, Hamas has been doing it for seven years ``

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ISIS has established its caliphate. Hezbollah was doing it even before

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that. Hamas is not in the position of even dictating terms to the

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Egyptian, if you ask me. The Israelis would be foolish to accept

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any kind of concessions following what happened, remember on July 18

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there was an Egyptian cease`fire on the table. Hamas rejected it under

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the pressure of the new sponsors of terrorism in the Middle East. Qatar.

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And now Hamas refusing to consider even the possibility of extending

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the cease`fire. If you want to know Hamas, read the Charter, it's very

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well documented. It is not just that they refuse to recognise Israel

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diplomatically like the rest of the Arab world except two countries, it

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is the Hamas charter but does not want to recognise Israel as an

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entity in the Middle East because for them the Middle East is sacred.

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There is chilling reading, refusing `` referring to the Jews as

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worshippers of the devil. If you think that Hamas Wilbert, they

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won't, because if you remove the charter, this is their very reason

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for existing `` if you think that Hamas will budge. And this is why I

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think there is no future for any negotiation with Hamas, because, and

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this is my main point, the Palestinians proved they could not

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be trusted with the territory. They had Gaza to themselves for 7 euros

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and turned it into a base of and turned it into a base of

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terrorism. That is the fear of the Israelis that something similar will

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happen in the West Bank. I think Hamas is a terrorist group

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with next to no military capability. We have seen this in the latest

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round of violence. Three Israeli civilians have been

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killed, two died of shock. Nobody condones the firing of obsolete

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rockets into Israel. But they must be dealt with in the manner that

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reflects the danger that they represent. They represent next to

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zero danger to Israeli lives. Why? Because there is a very effective

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iron dome Pro tenting the lives of the Israelis that is good. What is

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at stake is the security of the Palestinians. That is very much the

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heart of the matter. And the Israelis trying to justify mass

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murder, more than 2,000 people, more than 400 children, 85%... So you are

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saying it is disproportionate to the threat that is being posed? Not only

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that but we are hearing false logic used by the Israelis. Indeed

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infanticide, to ludicrous claims of 9/11. In my recollection, 9/11

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resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, that is

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exactly what this operation achieved in Palestine, not the other way

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around. I think we could move beyond the

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sorts of arguments that we are seeing on every discussion programme

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on television in this country. What I want to say is that I think that

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one thing that everybody can agree on is that the security of

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Palestine, Gaza and Israel is the desired end state with a two`state

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solution. It seems to me that Hamas has not been, has paid a heavy price

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but has achieved something in all of this, which is to threaten the

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security of the state of Israel in the sense that the security of

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Israel depends not just on the flow of arms, finances and diplomatic

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backing from the West but from public opinion. It is unarguable,

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that what we have seen on the television screens, with we can

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debate the fairness of the media but 2,000, civilians mostly, killed,

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400`odd children, has done enormous damage to Israel's standing in the

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world. As it result it will damage its security. Israel's security is

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in... But it had no choice... I will come back to both of you. That is a

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very important point. Israel can clearly defend itself, the defence

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is not the same as national security. That is a wider issue,

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about whether you can trust neighbours. In that sense, John may

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be right. The recent events have been bad for

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Israel in terms of its standing in the community. That is

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unquestionable. But Israel has endured extensive criticism in the

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UN and other bodies and carried on. I am a supporter of the state of

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Israel but it is difficult to say to Israelis, who have put up with the

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criticisms and then been Iing perked to say that this is different. This

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is potentially a watershed. The difference between the international

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opinion and what is happening in Israel is that the Israeli generals

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have been given permission to deal with military threats as they see

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them and they will carry on doing that. That is their job. I question

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the logic of Irbil, about a propores mate response. What is the Merritt

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of it? Do you lessen it because you have an iron dome. It works all the

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of the time. Three Israelis have died. Two died of shock.

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the same again. Do you take the big point, that is, we have only a

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minute left but the point that John is making that Israel depends `` is

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that Israel depends on a degree of goodwill from western industries? Of

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course. That is why Hamas has lost its entire support in the Arab

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world. The last point I would like to make,

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the ceasefire ended and then Hamas started firing again.

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If Hamas put down its arms, there would be peace in the region. In

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Israel #3u9 down the arms there would be a massacre of Jews like you

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have not seen before. Israels have not conducted themselves well but

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that fundamental is true. The security of Israel being threatened

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is a myth. That is fundamental. The Palestinian people is the only

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people on earth to be asked to guarantee the security of its

:21:14.:21:18.

occupier. Israel would have gained worldwide sympathy if it decided to

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resolve this through the international community. But it

:21:23.:21:26.

decided to send soldiers. Let's move on.

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So, when you thought that the news around the world could not get any

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worse, the Ebola outbreak in West Africa is spreading and health

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emergency is becoming a main point for systems that cannot cope. What

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should we do in the richer western worlds to help? We must not be

:21:48.:21:58.

spectators. The attitude of Medecins Sans Frontieres is vital.

:21:59.:22:03.

I have spent time in Sierra Leone it is clear to me, a beautiful country,

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great people that they are, that the infrastructure is inadequate.

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Without Ebola, the medical infrastructure in Sierra Leone was

:22:13.:22:16.

not good enough for the day`to`day means. When Ebola strikes and the

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doctors are getting sick from a high mortality rate you need help from

:22:23.:22:27.

the international community. Unlike the thorny subjects that we have

:22:28.:22:32.

been discussing, here there is a right answer: A massive western aid

:22:33.:22:38.

as soon as possible. I have talked to health workers,

:22:39.:22:43.

Medecins Sans Frontieres, so on, they lack basic equipment. They are

:22:44.:22:48.

not looking for a miracle cure, that would be great but they want test

:22:49.:22:53.

kits and a degree of public order that they cannot impose.

:22:54.:22:58.

Obama has a fantastic opportunity to deliver as the leader of the free

:22:59.:23:03.

world. But traditionally we choose the third item on the programme as a

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cheerful one. I did not think it was possible this

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week. I was thinking there is something cheerful about Ebola. What

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is it? A jihadi group? Are they competing with Boko Haram? No. It is

:23:19.:23:23.

a disease. Unlike jihad it is curable.

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It is interesting, it is unarguable that it is up to us to do what is

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within our power and financial ability and reach within medical

:23:34.:23:37.

knowledge to deal with this but so far about 1,000 people, less, have

:23:38.:23:42.

died of Ebola in West Africa. Every day, every week that passes, many

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thousands of people across the underdeveloped world die of malaria,

:23:49.:23:54.

pneumonia and other diseases, and perhaps the cynical thought occurs

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to me, that the reason why Ebola has caught everyone's attention is that

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everyone is scared that the airports are not sufficiently secured and

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that Ebola may migrate. That is a legitimate fear to be

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concerned about. If a traveller comes from malaria, we are well able

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to treat it. Someone from West Africa with Ebola, the chances are

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high of their own death and the chances are significant of

:24:24.:24:27.

contaminating others it is a real threat. The priority of western

:24:28.:24:33.

countries, let's be honest, for the rich of the world, to keep Ebola

:24:34.:24:38.

out. We have seen how countries like Britain and France have been

:24:39.:24:43.

monitoring flights from West Africa, the overriding aim to prevent the

:24:44.:24:47.

disease getting here. But countries in the UN and individual countries,

:24:48.:24:52.

pledging money for the countries blighted by the disease. But the

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number one priority was always to effectively train aircraft crew and

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airport staff to spot the victims of Ebola. Again, it is self`interesting

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that is the dynamic behind dealing with this horrific disease. But I

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believe we have a duty to ensure that the greatest medical minds and

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research laboratories do all that they can to show solidarity,

:25:25.:25:28.

international solidarity. We talk about war a lot on this programme as

:25:29.:25:33.

being a massive threat to international security but plague or

:25:34.:25:38.

pestilence remains is as much of a threat.

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An idea that may unite the first part of our discussion to the latter

:25:44.:25:49.

one is how much money has been spent by the West by the United States and

:25:50.:25:57.

the United Kingdom, in the last ten years, trillions of dollars. Let's

:25:58.:26:04.

imagine for a moment that we had sought diplomatic solutions to the

:26:05.:26:07.

challenges and been able to spend even half of that money on

:26:08.:26:12.

combatting illness in the Third World, how much different a picture

:26:13.:26:19.

that this would now look. An optimistic note to end on. That

:26:20.:26:25.

is it for Dateline this week. We hope to have better news next week.

:26:26.:26:27.

Goodbye. Hi there. Today is the quiet before

:26:28.:26:55.

the storm. The storm in question is an old

:26:56.:26:56.

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