23/08/2014 Dateline London

There is a full bulletin of news at the top of the hour. Right now on

BBC News, Dateline London with Tim Hello and welcome to Dateline. On

today's programme, the barbarity of Islamic State: Will America and the

West now have to join forces with President Bashar al`Assad to

defeated? The shooting dead of black teenager Michael Brown by a white

policeman in misery and the racial fault lines it has exposed. And

everyone seems to be doing the ice bucket challenge, but who exactly

for? My guess David Aronowitz shop The Times, Nina Balleret be,

Jeff McAllister, the writer and broadcaster, and UNESCO wears, the

Portuguese writer. Welcome to you all.

Let's start with Iraq. What does the West do about Isis or the Islamic

State? The sheer barbarity of Islamic State was brought into even

sharper relief this week with the release of a video with the

beheading of American journalist James Foley. The worldwide revulsion

at the killing prompted yet another American air strike `` more air

strikes against northern Iraq, and the first public recognition

internationally that pretty unsavoury alliances might need to be

forced to defeat them `` forged. David, you were a proponent and

agreed with the invasion of Iraq and boots on the ground. What do you

think should happen? I'll tell you what I don't think should happen,

there shouldn't be any deal with President al`Assad, I do think that

is conceivably possible. Seeing as I do, believing as I do, that the

roots of Isis has its roots in the Syrian civil war and the failure of

the Iraqi government to deal with its Sunni minority and so on, almost

the last thing you would want to do is maintain the tyrant in power in

Syria and give the message to every Sunni who is not a member of Isis

and so on, that effectively you have taken the other side and don't care

about these dictatorships. Not only is it a year since Assad himself

carried out the chemical attack, but even at the same time we were

getting reports of 10,000 people killed by his Secret Service, tagged

and pictured, to which the world barely reacted. So you don't do

that, but I do think, and I will say briefly then shut up, I do think we

have reached the point where, with the agreement with the Kurds and the

Iraqi government, it is entirely fair for the West, and by the West

we generally mean the Americans as you know, to take what action is

necessary with air power to interdict Isis. That might mean

crossing into Syrian air space. Could that be agreed? I do not think

an agreement with President Assad is the way to go. He is part of the

problem, not part of the solution. He did not take any action against

ISIS as they were growing. They were killing the very opposition to him.

The idea that you can form an alliance with him, which is what he

was saying, if it is not me, it will be the terrorists, it would be a

disaster. I do think it is not just a matter of military air strikes,

this idea that we talk about a Sunni minority, there are problems in the

Sunni majority, but ISIS has killed as many Sunni Moslems. `` Muslims.

When it comes to the language coming out of Washington, is this just

catching up? Has President Obama been so weak, are these tactical

responses, rather than an overall strategy. It should have been

addressed by not invading Iraq in the first place. You can tell

series of calamities, as is everyone.

great ideas on how to deal with this. If you do have people who are

saying we do not like the idea of sanctuary in Syria, that seems to be

leaning end, this must be in the works, or else they would not have

said it. It may not be a formal alliance with President Assad, but

it about ISIS. He now sees them as a

threat and could make some common cause with the Americans. The

Russians would love this. You can see being greedy and is here for a

deal, I am not sure it can happen, it is so complicate it and there is

so much hatred and alliance shifting going on. When you look at what

happened before, Francois Hollande once a conference on this, is the

European response at United? It will try to be, but I do not think no one

knows exactly what to do. They do not know what to be united about. On

the point about President Assad, we are already a bit late in terms of

cod nation with the West. co`operation. This is already

happening. We need NATO countries and the countries in

the region, like Turkey, they will have an

open and continues to be open and this is essentially leading to a lot

of movement. Something has to be done. For Kurdistan, this is a

perfect opportunity to push for full independence. It is coming back to

you and the Sunni awakening, which reduced a lot of sectarian killings,

is it possible to pull Iraq is back together, to have that consensus of

working together? Of course it is possible, but the political system

is so broken that it is based on divide and rule rather than bringing

Iraqis together. The idea that people talk about militias,

depending on their sect rather than saying we are all criminals and we

have to treat them as criminals. In addition to the awakening, it was

something the Americans did, they paid these people, you need

salaries. The Americans have stopped those payments. You have got

politicians from the same party, are they joined at the hip? For a while

they were. It is not just about the personalities, it is about the

elite. There are those that are members of government, for example

the Transport Minister, he has been in military fatigues for the last

couple of months. Again, I think he feels international pressure. There

cannot be an Leicester are military strikes, we just ignore it, there

has to be international pressure. After the invasion, where are the

personnel, the people with the skills, the people with the

ability, the intelligence to bring the country back together? This is a

big problem, there is a huge vacuum. They do not have the resources.

Military training, personnel training... There has to be far

more. In terms of reason versus, fighters, they exist in Iraq. There

is a problem of command `` resources. There are Iranians

trainers in Iraq alongside Americans now. On the issue of the proxy war,

is there any other way of tackling that, which is not being done? You

can clearly see that all the parties involved in this, including Saudi

Arabia, I find Qatar are more difficult to understand and in

almost every way. It is one of the great mysteries. Almost all of them

have become alarmed at what they have helped to fashion in the

region. It is one thing to jostle region. It is one thing to jostle

for supremacy, it is quite another to have open up on your borders,

flagrant anarchy... Vladimir Putin is finding this to an extent in the

Ukraine, it is hard to control things. They are edging towards an

idea of how we can discuss this so we do not just poor weapons into

people on our side. What is your thinking? No one in America

presumably wants to see troops on the ground, but would there be

support for preventing Mass occurs? The argument is that the Islamic

state `` Islamic State becomes Afghanistan on steroids `` Mass

occurs. `` massacres. I do not think it is leading to a demand to do

something, but it may lead to a permission for President Obama to do

something if he wants to. Your hearing a lot of voices in

Washington saying that this is a serious long`term threat. Just

bombing and perhaps getting ground forces to do something about it in

that area does not solve the problem of radical ideology. We are talking

about tactics and bombing, where is the economic growth, why is the

ideology that says peace and security and tolerance can be yours

if you do these things? It depends on working government being able to

manage things on the ground, that is in short supply as well.

Let's move now to the US and the recent racial violence

which has caused such concern, the shooting dead of black teenager

Michael Brown by a white police officer in Missouri exposing deep

America's first black President has been in office for six years now,

but what has changed from 30 years ago.

Not very much from what we have seen from Ferguson. One in five Americans

is poor, unemployment rates are much higher amongst African Americans and

even the perception of what went on in Ferguson, there is a huge

difference between the white perception and black perception.

Yesterday there was a poll which showed that most black African

Americans saw that this was a wake`up call for race relations.

Only one third of whites believe that this is a serious matter. Two

thirds of African Americans thought the police overreacted, in contrast

to only one third off whites. This shows a divided country, pretty much

segregated, whether whites do not know how black people live. There is

be somewhere in Iraq. The police be somewhere in Iraq. The police

force has 6% of black people, but the population in Ferguson is an 84%

black. When it comes to President in Bama `` President Obama, not wanting

to play the race card, but does he need to do more, saying we want to

heal these wounds? He is dammed if he does act as the first black

President and he is dammed if he does not. You cannot walk away from

the reality. It is the same as the Middle East, there are divisions.

The same for the Americans, they almost do not want to have the

conversation, but they need to. He has to step up. It is extraordinary

that he only interrupted his holiday for a couple of days when this is

the most significant, physical presence of these racial tensions on

the ground and for the world to see. In addition, what has been

surprising is that his statement on Ferguson was so muted compared to

2008, whereas people are telling him, you do not need to win another

election, this is your time to step up and say this problem needs to be

tackled. It is an issue of perceptions, you have to tackle the

perception that the police does not protect everyone equally. When

Trayvon Martin was killed, President Obama it used some strong language,

this could have been my son... He stepped back from that now and I

wonder what your perception was off where America is now? Certain

studies say that blacks who were born after 1976 are nice saying, a

lot of this is our fault, we need to pull ourselves up `` are now

saying. I was very seduced by a herd narrative, it is not untraditional

and not completely unfair `` her narrative. You are right in the

sense, there are people in America, black people in America who wonder

if this narrative serves them. The problem they have is that when you

get a situation like the one in Ferguson, where a black guy with a

knife is shot by police in full view of the camera, a guy... Calorie

member how long ago, it is not love `` but without long ago since the

killers of Lee Rigby when two policemen with guns in London and

were shot in the leg. Is it really impossible for a white American

policeman or even a black American policeman to disarm a knifeman

without pumping six or seven shots into him? Is it inconceivable? What

is wrong with you? Perhaps you can answer this question, I find it

really difficult. It was almost as if the policing in Ferguson, they

said, who cares what everyone thinks? Who cares how everyone is

reacting? Who cares if we are contributing to this problem?

Standard police doctrine is if you take your gum `` gun out, it is to

kill someone. Why is that? Maybe they have tasers. I agree

completely. There are 18,000 small police departments across the United

States, they all have their own little areas, in Ferguson there are

57 white officers. The standards of training, race relations, the

standards of intelligence in terms of controlling situations like this

are going to be spotty because of centralised control. Is it also the

militarisation? You look at the Pentagon funding, camouflaged

uniform on the streets of Ferguson. They say if they have camouflaged

uniform they should have McDonald's uniform because he would fit into a

shopping mall. The SWAT string has been very attractive. Big police

departments for all the history of racial departments are making

progress in terms of numbers, tactics and community acceptance, so

it is not impossible, but like many other things to do with race in

America, there is so much inheritance and uphill battle that

you sometimes feel quite depressed that it is ever solvable. UNESCO how

are you writing about this for your readers? `` Younis. Race in America

and here in Europe is still very divisive, but has Europe perhaps

done more intense progress? I am not sure because the problems might be

different. In the end it boils down to the persistence of racism. We had

riots in London a few years ago, race was only a dimensional of those

riots. One very important thing I mentioned about the Ferguson riots

is class. In America, race and class are interlinked, but it is also the

question of class, access to education, good employment, good

opportunities, living in good neighbourhoods safe neighbourhoods

and so one. You don't see progress in these measures? Some small

progress? There is no lessons from Europe. But is that part of it, is

that something which is shared across Republican and Democrat lines

or other Democrats pushing more for something on that front marked

yellow the Democrats traditionally have. Among the Republicans this is

no longer discussed. Jack Kennedy made an effort to try to focus on

the urban poor, what the Republicans could do for it, and there is still

talk of if you take the government away and let everyone big

capitalists black people will rise like everyone else, but there is no

dialogue in the Republican party any more. What are your thoughts in

terms of education programmes, funding? Is it more positive

discrimination, saying in America, in terms of education, we need to be

spending much more on the American black population? I think it should

be much more about, like you said, class and giving advantages to those

who are under certain lines, not necessarily poverty lines, which

there are, but certain lines. It gently because you are black. Some

believe in affirmative action others say not, but it should be given a

boost to those who are from less advantage backgrounds `` shouldn't

be because you are black. We find in the US that there is this history

that is so loaded, and still very recent, and sometimes, you are

right, perhaps the generation that came after the 70s doesn't remember

as vividly, but now will use Ferguson as a reference point, so it

is so important what happens in the next few days to take away the

military police and not say the National Guard is how we deal with

this history that is so loaded, and still very recent, and sometimes,

you are right, perhaps the generation that came after the 70s

doesn't remember as vividly, but now will use Ferguson as a reference

point, so it is so important what happens in the next few days to take

away the military police and not say the National Guard is how we deal

with those. African`Americans are 30% of the population and 40% of the

prison population, does that mean anything? Family enough I noted that

in some parts of the Republican party they have been talking about

the problems of over jailing `` firmly enough, if catches remarkable

in the course of the last few months `` funnily enough, and the problem

of effective criminalisation. Actually, we talk about this is as

it is simple, it is not, it is hugely complex, and if you look at

the experiences of different groups in America, the biggest fundraising

group is Hispanics, of whom one would have thought if the problem

was just prejudice they would fit into the same problems over again.

It isn't, the problems are insofar as they are of a different kind and

have a different history. I think maybe it is time we abandoned some

of the simplicities. But we don't have to abandon one simplicity: Said

shoot people if you don't need to. Your original point. `` don't shoot

people unless you need to. George Bush, President Obama `` George Bush

has done it, Obama and Pamela Anderson have refused. The ice

bucket challenge. Now a major charity, Macmillan Cancer support,

is in hot water for hijacking the stunt from the motor neurone disease

Association, so all in all it has created a splash. I can't believe

I'm saying this! It is the ultimate selfie, isn't it? Completely. You

think it is in a good cause? I think it is just may be showing my age,

but good causes, you don't need to be resort to silly tactics to draw

attention to them. It is a very, very serious disease, very

debilitating, but I think it is just a sign of our age, totally

narcissistic culture where we photograph ourselves having dinner,

our lunches, the most trivial things. But you do that and you are

not trying to raise $31.5 million which this charity has in the last

month. I am torn about this, because on the one hand I am sick of seeing

people trying to look silly and also wasting water, and I know that

sounds silly... LAUGHTER. But there was a protest in a province of China

of empty buckets, saying, we have a drought here, and you are splashing

around and we have a drought. So on the one hand... So that takes the

impact away. Exactly, but this idea of filming yourself then sharing it,

but I think it is important because it has raised awareness about the

disease and push people to give more. What worries me is we don't

know who is donating or not. It would be good if part of the stunt

is to say I have donated, this is where you donate, rather than have

people watcher, laugh and move on. This is a terrible disease but

relatively few sufferers compared to other diseases. The argument as it

is taking money from them. I have a terrible admission, until we were in

the green room before this I have no idea that was why they were doing

it. I can't help wondering whether quite a lot of people are taking the

challenge with no notion of where it started where the money is going. In

that sense I think this is right. It has nothing to do with raising money

for charity and everything to do with being seen on social media. If

that rate is ?32 million, fine, but nobody then says, is that the best

thing you could do with 32 million pounds? With motor neurone disease

others say it is, other charities... Macmillan Cancer

support so they are stiffening off this money. Presumably they now have

to come up with a bizarre challenge similarly easy to do and mildly

humiliating saying you are a good sport etc. People like me I guess

will be baffled by that. Jeff McAllister? It is great, who can

complain? It is a stunt with a huge following. My daughter did

yesterday. I thought the tape was hysterical and I am glad I am not on

Facebook so no one can make me do it. But she has to nominate someone

else. I have told her it can't be me. LAUGHTER. How does that work?

President Obama was not allowed to do it, the State Department said it

was demeaning, but George Bush did it. For the president to do it is

strange. Government employees don't do it because it uses government

notoriety. It is time for us to get our umbrellas because we will have

to face the ice and the water now. That is it for Dateline London this

week. We are back the same time next week. Goodbye.

Hello there. It is of course a holiday weekend in many parts of the

UK, and there will be decent, dry, sunny weather around that time is to

be enjoyed. Particularly chilly Billy Knight and it wouldn't be

complete without the rain especially on