30/08/2014 Dateline London

The subjects for our discussion this week are the newly raised terror

alert and containing the potential threat from Islamic State.

Immigration ` what NATO should decide at its

My guests today are Owen Jones, author and columnist with

Benedict Paviot from the television channel France 24.

And Michael Goldfarb of America's Globalpost.com.

David Cameron has raised it to "severe", acting on advice from the

security services that an attack is "highly likely".

He's worried at the prospect of British Muslims being radicalised

in Syria and then coming back to the UK.

How worried should we be? We know around 500 Britons have gone to

Syria, of which 200 have returned. The concern is this. We have had 13

years of so`called war and terror, which can divide into three

components. A crackdown on Civil Liberties across the Western world,

components. A crackdown on Civil Liberties secondly, generalisations

about Muslims fuelled by sections of the media which have done nothing to

deal with the disaffection of swathes of particularly was on

youth, and also foreign interventions which have ranged from

disastrous to catastrophic. No one is saying we shouldn't monitor those

returning from Syria. It is an Orwellian world, because the year

ago, we will boarding uprising against Syria's dictatorship, and we

have had a lot happening in a short space of time. We need to be killing

also with these external issues. Firstly, the NATO ally with Turkey,

with a semi`porous border with Syria, in which many of these

British fighters and people are passing through too easily, but we

have to deal with allies like Saudi Arabia and Qatar, which deal with

the former head of MI6 pointing out that ISIS would not have managed its

victory without support from within Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Originally,

Qatari military aid was going to Syria with CIA complicity. Unless we

deal with those issues, Saudi Arabia has gotten away with it for far too

long, and helping export international terrorism. It is

having an impact on all western countries. Should we be worried?

They wouldn't go to Syria if they weren't already radicalised. The

radicalisation presumably is training in Syria. I have been here

before. I'm not worried. In the US, I came across a link or judicial

watch, which is a Conservative online website which claimed it had

proof that jihadis were crossing through Mexico into the southern

United States. Did you fail your creative writing class? You spend

all day dreaming this stuff up. But it is out there for the most part.

Enough Civil Liberties has been overrun in the last 13 years. I

think it is likely, and if we know 500 guys have gone over, or 700 or

800, then presumably, the security services know when a comeback. If

they know when they come back, they presumably know what they are up to.

I am less concerned. This is more about trotting up this idea of IAS

is being this horrible bogeyman. `` idea of is not expect. If you are in

Syria and Iraq, it is a dreadful force, and it is a blight on

people's lives. But I'm not sure it is here. `` Islamic State. Do you

think this tells us anything about the real day`to`day threat from

people who have travelled to Syria to fight? Know, and Theresa May

herself said she does not think there is any evidence to suggest

there is an imminent terror attack. Why are you raising the terror

threat level? They would say they do it on advice. But there is no

evidence, so I think there is a fundamental understanding ``

misunderstanding of the Islamic State threat. Al`Qaeda was based in

exile from its home territory in the Middle East in Afghanistan and

Pakistan, and if it was to attack Western targets, Islamic State is a

localised military force that has a national and regional agenda, which

is to expand into Syria and Iraq. The West thinks everything is about

itself, but in this instance, it is not. It is about the failure of the

modern state. It is about the anarchy and breakdown of the modern

Arab state. It is not really something people are thinking of

taking back to the UK or the US. Even if they go home? Even if they

go home, if you listen to the foreign British was fighters, the

odd idiot will say they want to raise the black flag, that it is

more about animals and vision, it is more about an Arab vision. `` about

a Muslim vision. Some people are going to the situation don't speak

the language. I think that disconnect between the pen Arabism

him `` pen` Arabism of it means there may be more of a cross

pollination between the two. Looking at it from a French perspective, is

there much of a read on the streets about this? If you mean that Arab

youth in France, yes. There is a real problem in France in the

suburbs which doesn't have the nice connotation in the UK. It is a

problem, because there is already a problem of integration, and that is

something Britain and France have in common. They are not just two powers

dealing with empires and coming to grips with that for their own

personal history. Two French people for real `` feel threatened? Do they

think there is a terrorism threat they could explode on their street?

Not yet, I don't think. There was the attack in Belgium. There have

been some serious incidents, one where a person rang our TV channel

and spoke to one of our colleagues, and there was killed by French

police. He had previously killed some French soldiers and killed some

Jewish children. There is a problem. There is a problem of jihadis. The

French interior minister, newly appointed, and also the one in the

previous government, told me yesterday that France things they

have a bigger problem, because we think there are 900 French people

who have gone to Iraq or Syria. I would say about the British diet, I

think there is probably some intelligence we are not party to

that they are basing this on, and France has two levels. `` about the

British threat. One thing that has not been mentioned is what is

happening next week, the NATO summit. Britain is hosting the

biggest ever meeting. Even the police chiefs know they have 110

VIPs. Will get to later. `` we will get to that later. Let's come to the

question of immigration. It does weaving. We have had these figures

this week that show the net migration figure is still way off

being met, and is falling further away. The government thought they

would get net migration down. We're now in a situation where a quarter

of children born in this country are born to mothers who are born abroad.

Migration is a poisonous issue. Yet they know they have to engage in it.

We have to separate the first and second discussion. There is one

thing about war and terror and jihadists, and then there is the

issue of immigration, which is a separate issue. In terms of

immigration and the concern people have, I think the point I would make

is this. In Britain, and in other countries, it has been a source of

deflected anger. We have an economic crisis, the longest fall in living

standards in this country since the 1860s, we have job insecurity, a

housing crisis because successive governments refuse to build council

housing and social housing. And because of that, and because of the

failure of a less progressive narrative to answer those concerns,

it becomes easy to say, I can't get an affordable home, so why is it

being given to them? They don't deserve it. It is the politics of

envy. They are assiduously promoted in this country in terms of low paid

workers against the unemployed, private against public sector

workers, and they get angry at anyone except the people in power.

This is the same with immigration here and in France. We should make a

separate distinction, I agree. It isn't just Britain. This is one of

the big problems with the discussion we turn to having this country. It

is just America, where it reflects this. The economy is terrible and

these people are getting jobs. The outgoing refugee commissioner of the

UN showed us the statistics. More people are on the move at this

moment than any time since World War II. 50 million people will stop ``.

They are displaced by war or economic immigrants. That will that

everybody's shores. It will not be possible to keep them out of Britain

or out of the United States or France or anywhere. Where we can

bring back to earlier question, and this is not meant to be insulting or

give a free pass to people who choose to go out and fight with

Islamic State, it is true that the second generation, when they arrive

in the country, many will not feel at home or comfortable, even though

there were born on the soil. The hole for nominal of being black

British. You are English and you were born in England. `` the whole

phenomena. When they feel like a minority, you can find social

problems. They can be things like chopping people's heads off in

Syria. The whole issue of immigration has been collapsed into

the foreign fighters issue. Let's look at the numbers. Immigration

over the past year has risen by 38%. Let's look at the numbers. Two

thirds of those are good immigrants, people nobody who has a problem with

and actually Western Europeans, not even Eastern European. 68,000 of

that number is from Europe. 68,100 from Romania and Bulgaria. And

asylum seekers constituted 23,000. That is a tiny number. 23,000 from

Africa and Asia. When people say, 238,000 people I hear, the

government has missed its target. Most of those people are Western

European economic migrants that IKEA entirely legally because Britain is

part of the EU. Even in your country, the debate is now open

about free movement within the European Union. It is only a debt

used in Europeans, or is the discomfort more widespread? `` is

the debate only about Eastern European 's. There are parts of the

EU where people are throwing themselves into situations where

they are dying. What was interesting to hear from the French minister

yesterday is that he spent some time with Theresa May and speaking

specifically about immigration, and he is going around the capitals of

Europe. He is speaking to its German counterpart today. He's speaking to

his Italian counterpart. He is speaking to its German counterpart

today. He's speaking to his Italian counterpart. He's gaining consensus,

because what France wants to do is for an EU coordinator to look at

this issue of immigration, one of the things I was surprised by

yesterday is he was almost bending over backwards to tell the French

media how France take its share of responsibility whether it was about

Calais, but the Britain should take its own responsibility and not place

all foreigners because it is on French soil. These people want to

make it to the UK. By the way, one of the reasons it is much easier for

an immigrant to come here being in the UK is because in France, at any

moment, with you are on the beach in a bikini, you should have your ID on

you. Single passport or your identity card. This is not true

getting the United Kingdom. That is the big change. `` this is not true

yet in the United Kingdom. This is about affording people their

dignity. I've seen people from Eritrea with their children, and you

want to afford them dignity and give them food and shelter, and he was

saying the EU needs to look at this before it sets about doing for the

countries that need a Schengen visa. Was seen as an unacceptable

infringement on people's writes in the UK. That is historic. In terms

of the incentive they are backlash, it will not be dealt with on a

social and economic level. Won we won't have time for that, but you

have made the point. Let's move on to NATO. The leaders are meeting in

Wales next week would be crisis in Ukraine top of the agenda. NATO and

the Ukrainians say Russian soldiers have crossed the border to fight.

Conjecture, says Moscow, which is not much of a denial. What should

the West do? President Obama may not have a strategy, as he candidly

admitted, for deal with Syria. Does he have one for dealing with Russia?

Probably more sanctions. Something has to be said. No one knows

anything. He is president in a time when no one can say they can

actually know anything. In March of this year, a meme I went through it

the press saying in the initial stages of this conflict, Russia is

rapid, what can we do? We have war in Ukraine. Suddenly he backed off.

The first round of sanctions don't abide any backed off.

like years researching together. Nobody knows. When NATO gets

together, the Secretary General, a Danish man, he has been making

warlike sounds all week long. I read be curious to know what the Danish

newspapers make of a former Danish Prime Minister trying to create the

possibility of real conflict. I think that people will sit around

the room and say, more sanctions, a red line, such as it is, will have

to be if they push closer to Kiev. Who is going to do anything? The

wood has `` they would have to ask Britain, the French, are you willing

to risk a serious war? The strategy has to be to look earnest and have

more sanctions. Is France willing to risk the serious prospect of

conflict? Arguably, this is what NATO is for, to defend the borders

of Eastern Europe from Russia. The borders have certainly changed.

France does not want war. Diplomacy and hard knocking of heads together.

We do not want warlike sounds. Some people would say that rather than

the ISIS thread, this is a bigger threat. The vocabulary used is

interesting, not just by the outgoing Secretary General of NATO.

They have been holding back from using the word invasion. We are

talking about an incursion. It is a very long border. We thought we had

finished with the cold war. But if NATO is going to take on this kind

of prospect, God knows, we do not know if we are going down that

route. I agree. What will be decided at the NATO summit, it will be more

sanctions. But we have to be very careful that leaders do not bounce

us into some other more terrible prospect. The extent of the

sanctions will be interesting. It has been said that the sanctions

will hit the faltering economic situation in the Eurozone. The

amount they will tolerate will be limited. Obviously war with Russia

is unimaginable. We should forget about that. Do we just accept that

Ukraine... ? It is not a NATO country. It wants to be. I would

imagine that Putin will not tolerate that. No one doubts the pernicious

role of the Putin resume. That does not lead the European governments

off the hook either. The shelling of civilian areas, the civilians

fleeing to the Russian border. I have no truck with the Putin regime.

That has to be opposed. But let's not forget what the Ukraine

government is doing. The UK could have sanctions right now. They could

stop lots of Russians who have lots of assets here. They will not.

Exactly. It would make large properties in London more

affordable. It will resolve the housing crisis. Does NATO serve any

purpose? Not when it comes to this kind of conflict. If you have a

Bosnia situation, where there is genocide and ethnic cleansing, and

very clear security threat for mainland Europe, and also a very

clear aggressor, then yes. But in this situation, it sure the

limitations of NATO. There is a big Russian minority within the Ukraine.

Putin is not helping by not admitting at all that there are

Russian soldiers. At one point, the Russian spokesman said, there are

Russian soldiers on holiday. They are on holiday, but they are in

uniform. It is a short cut to the Crimea. They were not on bank

shares. `` deckchairs. We are always looking at it from our side, NATO.

Ukraine is not a member state, so it is not necessarily under NATO's

protection. In the case of Bosnia, I can remember the 18 months before

NATO acted. That was when the murdering was going on. If you look

at it from the Russian side, you have to understand, the Russian

mentality, as I understand it, it is so what. They have a Millwall

mentality. Nobody likes us, we do not care. I think that when you're

dealing with Putin, you have to understand, he does not really care

what NATO says. Was that our mistake? We thought that if we

should respect for him as the leader of Russia, he would somehow become

more western? Is that the misunderstanding? When he was

shelling Chechnya, what was he doing? The West was not demanding

that he stopped. The former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, supported him.

He is working for a number of dictators at the moment. Let's not

pretend that Putin is a bogeyman the West has always opposed. Any kind of

conflict is kind of seen as not on our patch, something that will not

threaten mainstream Western security. I think that is the sad

fact. It is not something that anybody feels worried about, no

matter how many people die or how many countries are destabilised.

There is not a big threat of pollution. This NATO summit is also

meant to deal with cyber warfare and redefine the notion of what NATO

stands for. We have these major problems, the withdrawal of Afghan

Eclipse. What a mess that country is in. `` at the withdrawal of troops

from Afghanistan. And finally, flying is getting

more dangerous, and it's nothing Two incidents this week where

flights have been disrupted because passengers fighting over

the right to recline. Do you dread the prospect

of the person in front I do not understand this. Yesterday,

I flew on Ryanair, and you cannot recline your seat. A stewardess gave

the game away this morning on the radio. She said that you can

actually block it and stop the person reclining. Thank you for that

explanation. You can jam a book or a bottle of water. I do recline. I

agree. Or you can just get your flight diverted, as they did. That

is an extreme level to go to. If there is a serious side to this, it

is about conflicts in enclosed spaces. Are we getting more

intolerant? Everybody knows that is the point. The airlines are trying

to squeeze more in. It is only a quarter of an inch. I am not the

tallest person in the world. If I cannot cross my knee, I am not going

to be able to relax. It is about the airlines cramming a sin. I will be

avoiding flying with any of these people.

That's it for Dateline London for this week.

I will be back next week at the same time, Goodbye.

Hello. As August draws to a close, much of the month was cooler and

wetter than average. For the final weekend, things are looking decent.

Lots of dry weather in the forecast and sunny spells. It will not be dry

everywhere. We have