06/09/2014 Dateline London

I'll be back with a full bulletin at the top of the hour. Now it is

programme crow. `` Dateline. Yasmin Alibhai Brown,

columnist with The Independent, Mina Al`Oraibi, assistant editor`in`chief

of the newspaper, Asharq Al`Awsat, the US lecturer and broadcaster

Jeffrey Kofman and from Russia, Even as a ceasefire

in eastern Ukraine was agreed on Friday between pro`Russian

separatists and the Kiev`based government, NATO was talking tough

against President Putin, He's facing a further round of

sanctions from the United States and the European Union, and the NATO

summit ended with an agreement to station a spearhead force in Poland,

ready to respond to any threat to On his way to the summit,

President Obama told an audience in Estonia that "borders cannot be

withdrawn at the barrel of a gun". Jeffrey Kofman, has

the summit made that less likely? No, it feels like we are reliving

the Cold War now that we have seen this strike force stationed on the

borders of Russia. At this point, we have to see whether the extremists

on both sides will abide by the cease`fire. It is by no means clear

that this is over. Alexander? I don't think the cease`fire will

hold. I have already heard that the Donetsk area was shelled. The

problem is that the militia on the ground on both sides do not really

listen to either Russia or President Poroshenko. They do their own thing.

So I don't see it holding for long. There are other agendas involved.

Other countries are being involved. The problem I have with the coverage

of Ukraine in the Western media is that it is one`sided, unfortunately.

And unfortunately, the general public does not know both sides of

the story. It is not as simple as putting the invading Ukraine. It is

not as simple as democracy loving protesters in the Kiev suddenly

seizing power by themselves. It is a complicated matter. It is a

historically compensated issue. It is like in Iraq, when the Americans

and the British went in. They basically destroyed the fine balance

is that had existed for centuries there. It is the same in Ukraine.

Yasmin, one of those balances is the idea that nation states are

sacrosanct and if you attack them, there have to be consequences. And

yet, isn't NATO bolting the stable door after the horse has gone?

Crimea is no longer part of the Ukraine. This is an important point.

I don't agree that we are back in the Cold War. The Cold War was a

certain thing. We knew the lines, we knew who was who. I know they played

all kinds of spy games, but there was a clear shape that we

understood. What is happening now around the world is all these

subgroups, like you said, not loyal to this Parliament, doing their own

thing. They are acting almost beyond the concept of nationhood. This is

why it is so troubling. You are right about that. Part of the

problem is that we look to the superpowers to solve this, but it is

not like you can make one phone call and say, let's put this aside. These

actors act independently. Mina, you were at the summit. Did you get the

impression that President Obama even wanted to be the man making a phone

call and telling people, here is the line and you don't cross? He

definitely does not want to draw any more lines. We had that with Syria.

He wanted to work within a coalition. That is what gives

readers a sense of being united. He was clear in telling the allies from

Eastern Europe that we have your back. But I don't think the Cold War

was as clean cut as Yasmin says, I just think we knew less than we know

now. The speed that news comes out, the amount of propaganda from both

sides, it has been incredible. Seeing social media accounts that

belong to officials or embassies going tit for tat on little

cartoons, you never had this sort of thing. Unfortunately, the Cold War

never went away. If the Cold War went away, NATO would have been

disbanded, because NATO was created... But the fact that you had

the NATO`Russia Council... It doesn't change anything. NATO was

created to prevent the Soviet Union from attacking. Once the Soviet

Union disappeared, NATO should have disbanded. When NATO started to move

eastwards, the Russians felt threatened, because why would they

move eastwards? But Putin came to the NATO summit in 2008. There was

the idea of the opening of a new chapter, but things have changed

since then. There are countries on the border of Russia that do feel

vulnerable. There are countries with Russian minorities that think, what

happens to us next? I agree that this volcano of information, we did

not have in the Cold War. But I grew up in Uganda during the Cold War,

and I can tell you that the most illiterate person knew what that

meant. And I'm sorry, but it was a good time for Africans. Not

necessarily for Europeans. But for some Africans, if the Soviets gave

600 university scholarships, the US gave us a thousand. It was a good

time! I agree that the militia are not under the direct control of

either side, but they are influenced and get funding from either side.

And that can feed in. So you could have a political resolution if there

is enough pressure on both sides. This point about NATO is key. It is

something in the West that we underestimate in the `` in that

following the collapse of the Soviet Union, about ten Warsaw Pact

countries came to NATO. We saw that as a natural evolution and that they

did it willingly and therefore it was OK. Now we are discovering that

great offence was taken by a certain segment of Russian society. What a

big segment, yes. I don't want to make the parallel to strongly of

post`World War I, when the assumption of Versailles was that

this would lead to peace and we so miss read it. That is interesting,

because people have bounced this word around, which is appeasement.

They have said that because of history, we are responding to Putin

and saying, we don't want to provoke this guy. Therefore, we say he can

have Crimea. Then we say maybe he can have an autonomous region within

Ukraine that looks to Moscow and can get finance and support from Moscow.

But what specs? If you were in Estonia, can you see why you might

say, when might they say Estonia is part of Russia? The Baltic states

have played a dubious role in history, to be honest. During World

War II, they sided with Nazi Germany. During the Cold War, the

distrust between Russia and the West has not gone away. It never went

away. When we had the 90s and we opened the doors to the West, we had

terrible things happening, American companies going in, Western banks.

And we had $20 trillion siphoned out of Russia by the Western banks and

the oligarchs that are supposedly big businessmen, Russian oligarchs.

What do you expect from people to think about America and the West

after we have been basically destroyed economically by them? It

was not just by them. The Russians made a lot of money. Yes, but the

money was hidden in the West. The Western banks took this money and

then started accusing Russia of not doing the reforms properly. The

privatisation was conducted. I was a Kremlin adviser, a troubleshooter

for the Kremlin security council and the finance ministry. I traced

people in the West who stole money. And you also traced them to Moscow,

no? No. Most of them just moved away. The banks helped them take the

money. The problem is, this distrust stays on. Putin cannot take Crimea

if the nation is not behind him. That is why there is a big

difference between Putin, Obama and Cameron. He responds to what the

people want. They do not. You may mean knock ever Putin, and I don't,

but there is an important point Alexander has raised, which is the

sheer arrogance of the West after the wall came down. These books

about the end of history, we were all going to be frightfully

wonderful, big capitalists. Actually, what we have created is a

new empire, a kind of economic model empire. I can understand why people

who are not really part of it are feeling disgruntled. I think a more

pressing question is this issue around Eastern Europe and the

countries that rely on Russian gas and oil. How do you walk this line

and try to bring Putin in line and find common ground when so many of

these countries' economies are so dependent on these pipelines? If we

look at history, it was Ronald Reagan who said, you build these

pipelines in Europe and Russia will have control over your economies and

you will lose your leverage. Lo and behold, that is what we are seeing.

After the summit, President Obama's Secretary of State John Kerry was

heading to the Middle East to add to what the president called the core

coalition of NATO members were linked to take on Islamic state with

countries from the Arab world. Mina Al`Oraibi, will he find them? I do

not agree with calling them Islamic state. To understand what this group

is, we have to define it public. So the idea of calling ISIS or ISIL,

they can't even get the acronym right. North Korea calls itself the

Democratic Republic of Korea. We don't call it that. So why do we

call it the Islamic State? There is a whole thing I don't want to go

into. That is one thing. But if you look at this core coalition, the ten

countries that got together on the sidelines of the summit, NATO kept

saying, this is not our meeting, they don't want to seem like it is

the West marching in. Turkey has an important role to play on so many

levels, but Turkey has been keeping quite quiet. There are various

reasons. First of all, the Turks have 48 hostages that were taken

from Mosul from the Turkish consulate. So they have that to

think of. They have also played a role in what is going on in Syria

and now feel like everything is getting blown back at them. That is

an interesting dynamic. Then like you said, there are the Arab

partners. King Abdullah of Jordan was at the NATO summit. So now they

are trying to see what they can do with Jordan. This is worrying. If

you start having armed and military adventure starting in the region

without knowing what the endgame is. When they talk about ISIS, they talk

about Iraq. Nvidia wants to discuss Syria. You can't just talk about

Iraq and not Syria. Whether you have a Sunni minister of finance or a

minister of foreign affairs will not make a difference. You have to look

at the core problems inside the country, both Syria and Iraq, things

like people being detained for years without trial. Their families will

feel disgruntled and look at alternatives, horrible and barbaric

as they are. So no matter how many discussions they have with

coalitions, they have to look at how the problems in Iraq and Syria are

solved. But the elephant, there are two elephants in the room. Maybe

three. They are Saudi Arabia, Qatar and increasing evidence coming

through of Kuwait. These very, very determined and very rich Sunni

countries have a particular view of what they want to see the Islamic

world becoming. And now they are in a bad place, because there is a

wonderful book by Patrick Cockburn which has just been written where he

says Saudi Arabia has been funding Wahhabi Islam across the world,

including in this country, and nobody has done a thing. But now,

apparently the rich families in Saudi Arabia are partly funding

whatever you want to call it, I will call it I guess because I can't get

into the debates. And the rulers are getting unnerved by that. So there

is politics within politics, but no one can deny that so much of what

has been happening in Syria and Iraq, you have to lay at the feet of

Saudi Arabia. I think that one of the things we are guilty of in the

West is not holding these Arab countries to account. There is a

kind of delicacy around these issues. We have end nears and Kings

and rulers. These are dictatorships, not accountable or transparent.

Particularly Kuwait and Qatar, they have helped fund ISIL or whatever

you want to call it. Now they realise they have created a monster

and Kuwait are pulling back a bit. This will not be solved by a Western

coalition. If there is one lesson we have learned from Iraq, it is that

NATO or the West cannot solve this. It has to come from within the Arab

world. We have at least seen encouraging signs from the UAE this

week, trying to release take some minor leadership role. And Iran. But

why are we forgetting the most important point? Russia has been

warning America, Britain and France, stop funding those extremists in

Syria. You will pay the price. They will go to other countries. They

will become a danger to you. They have been saying it all along during

the Syrian crisis. The Americans, the British comedy French and the

others didn't listen. Arms flowing in. There was training and

equipment. It emerged from that opposition, it

emerged from the wall where they were fighting the extremists on the

ground but some of them were so`called Democrats. But the danger

was... There were dangerous elements that are forgetting that equipment.

It is unfair that if certain things are not reported in the Western

media that we take for granted that they don't exist. The UN actually

named names, for individuals `` four individuals who were then taken out

in terms of having their funding cut or being jailed. They think it is

wrong to start going down this sectarian line. They have to take on

responsible to as if it is their fault. There are so many nuances. It

is a question of these being Islamic nations, we cannot expect the West

to come in and say, don't worry, we will solve it. So many of these

problems started because the West came in in the first place, they

cannot walk away. It is a mix. The whole project started in the 19th

century. The oil and money made it more possible. You cannot plug is on

four or five families. There are more people within Iraq as a whole

that are being killed for a particular sect but everyone says to

look at minorities. They are all being attacked so the problem is,

when you go down the sectarian narrative, it feeds right into what

extremists on both sides, weather the sunny militias or weather they

are ISIL `` be Sunni militia. Do you think that President Putin will be

more willing to see some action against ISIS. Russia were warning

the West that these elements were penetrating Russia and were going to

penetrate the West and nobody was listening. They were blaming the

Russians for taking on the Chechen thanks. Now they are listening. They

are but without Russia's involvement, there will be no

resolution to this crisis. It has influence in Iran and Syria. It is a

crucial player. For NATO to say they will attack you or have this

reaction force or whatever. It is rubbish. They should have sat down

and said to the Russians, we have a problem, they are moving into our

territory with British passports, they can attack targets. They are

already here. I have to take you up on this. What the Russians were

doing to Chechens was unspeakable... No, I disagree. Of

course you do. And what Russian... You are all hacks who are writing

rubbish. Let her make her point. You are talking rubbish. What the

Russians were doing two Chechen women and children was unacceptable.

Can you let me speak? Sorry, this is not a Russian parliament. This is a

BBC programme. I have the right to speak. I have to speak. This is not

your parliament, this is a programme. I have to speak. What

Russia did when the Syrian problem was solvable was unforgivable, so do

not make excuses for Russia. You scuppered all of the UN attempts.

Tell me that was propaganda, it is all propaganda. Of course not. This

is your own mindset. They are killing innocent civilians in

Ukraine. Liberal propaganda. You're one of the examples of a liberal.

You are a feminist liberal. And you hate Russia. I am, I am glad I am

not a mouthpiece like you. Nobody expects the liberal view any more.

There is a crisis into a liberal society. I am curious, baffled by

this conversation. I use an Russian army, I know we're going back to

where we began but are you saying that the Russians had not intervened

in Ukraine? There are volunteers. There are no regular troops. If you

listen to the UN observers on the border, there are no regular troops

in Ukraine. They are volunteers. Of course. But with Russian arms. Just

like in Iraq with ISIS, there are British and French fighters there.

In Ukraine, there are American and Swiss volunteers. We are talking

about people travelling out of their comfort zones...

Whilst John Kerry is off to the Gulf,

President Obama made a much shorter trip from Wales to Stonehenge,

the ancient ring of standing stones in southern England.

He was, he said, ticking it off his bucket list.

Yasmin, where would you send a world leader

in search of some post`summit inspiration?

This very aisle and an energetic world leader needs to get home, take

some vitamins, lots of vitamins and get back to the job. He cannot be

wandering around old stones and praying for some pagan gods. It is

not done. Stonehenge is marvellous and it is worth seeing. It is on the

bucket list but what is most disconcerting is that the word that

Obama chose to describe this incredible monument is cool. Maybe

in the vernacular of today, you would call it awesome. What to call

it cool is... There is something so cloying about that that it makes you

cringe. It is like his constant use of folks. He needs to stop using

that. "We torched `` we tortured some folks." He is tried be a man of

the people. He went there for less than an hour. The fact that he was

so well behaved and did not play any golf while being on a golf course,

Leone that trip. It is a good place to go. Anywhere else? London is so

great and full of great things, he went out summer. I would send him to

Kew Gardens because that is one of my favourite spots. It is not

exactly in Central London but it is great was what would get out of it?

He would realise how marvellous the world is with the species not

killing each other. Let him stand in the queue! It is a long queue. Which

waxwork would you think would be most is racial question the one of

himself! There are a lot of former American President is there, maybe

Truman, given the way the world is going. Obama is trying to grasp away

of writing history as the clock ticks down. For so many of his

supporters, what we have seen is a great disappointment. There were so

much hope and his ability to `` his inability to deliver, part of which

is down to the paralysis of the American system. Is there anywhere

you would send him? Somewhere quiet. Some beautiful mountaintop where he

could have some time on his own. As President, you don't get time to

reflect and breathe the air. He could have prayed with Cameron in

some small church in Wales. Do you remember Bush and Blair? Oh, please!

You said he should be back working. Being charitable, where would you

like him to be? I meant that. I have never felt the world was so

dangerous all at the same time. Not 911, none of that time. As a Shia

Muslim, as all sorts of things, we are in a bad place. I am sorry,

until retirement, back on the job. A sober end. Thank you all for joining

us on Dateline. The time has gone quickly.

That's it for Dateline London, Gavin Esler will be back next week.

You can also comment on the programme on Twitter.

From all of us, have a good week. Goodbye.